Maximising solar production in winter. Is a steeper angle really worth it? Timber vs Tilt Mount
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- In today's video, I want to find out how much the angle of the solar panel matters.
We will do several tests across the day with different angles and measure the power output of the panel.
At the end, how much more energy does the panel on a steeper, better angle produce in comparison to when it was installed on the tilt frame?
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Fun fact, one solar panel at an angle produces the same amount of power as several solar panels that are flat and cover the same shadow area. This is why I suggested just ignoring the angle entirely and laying down a bunch of solar panels (nearly) flat on the roof section... it can actually be cheaper because the mounting is far easier. That said, I do not recommend fully flat panels because dust accumulation can be pretty bad and rain and other junk does wash off and can damage the seals over time. You'd want at least 10 degrees off of flat.
The other item relates to off-grid / battery operation. For these extra panels, you generally want them oriented to cover a portion of the day that the main panels do not which shortens the number of hours the off-grid system has to operate on batteries alone. This is of almost the same importance as maximizing solar collection is because it can cut the overnight battery-only time by 2 hours or so and provide load support right up to sunset.
“Measuring the production by the area of shadow created.” This is a really intuitive way of explaining it - I hadn’t seen that connection before. Ty.
You can get some plastic things you click on the side of the panel there is the lowest. They suck the water out so it doesn't accumulate on the panel, and it removes the collected dust too with the water when it rains.
I am using those things at panels with an angle only 7 degrees, and they really work great. I 3d printed mine, but you can also buy them.
Edit: changed 7% angle to 7 degrees
I think, I have explained this in all details 😁
Andy, they sell some one-axis solar trackers with actuators with anemometers that park the panels if the wind gets too high on various sites like Alie Express - if you're building a frame you can connect the panels with a tie bar like the wheels of an old steam train and use just one central actuator all the panels will move like louver blinds. Imagine 2-axis solar tracking now that would be something - there are some great examples to be found search 2-axis solar tracking or dual-axis solar tracking.
In good old germany muss ein Windschott bei Solarmontage auf Flachdächern montiert werden. ( Eine einfache Aluplatte an die Aufständerung )
Andy you could put 3pcs in 25° slope and the last one on the edge of the roof with let say 50° slope. It is not ideal, but it is somewhere in the middle 🙂
My ridiculous suggestion?
Many flat set panels all the way along and then one practically vertical on the very end to catch a little extra in the afternoon.
Setting them flat will be cheaper, simpler and safer. But the last vertical one will give you a bonus.
Now you need to take into account the horizontal spacing as well
More tilt less panels on the roof 😅
A 10% increase doesn't seem like enough to justify the extreme tilting deal. I'd go shallow just to keep it simple and safe. Good luck. I hope you were successful calibrating the beers I got you.
Yay! You just proved the old adage that says “Fill the roof with solar” !
If I just would have access from there to the garage to charge the battery...
Poorly made AC charge controllers can over-current. These are typically the Chinese MPPT micro-inverters you see on the Amazon and other retail sites. They usually do have temperature management, but it is a poor way to manage an inverter and will eventually burn it out. To rectify this you generally want to have the (open-circuit) input voltage be as high as possible within the capabilities of the inverter. Which usually means series connected panels rather than parallel.
DC charge controllers generally do not over-current the input because the input voltage is usually required to be higher than the output voltage and they limit the output current to the rating. So, by definition, the input current will be lower.
Why not change the orientation of the last panels before the edge of the roof and tilt those panels somewhat (shadows won't matter at that point), and then lay the remaining panels flat(ish) in front of them heading toward the trees. Seems like the best use of the space, should maximize overall production for a static mount, and also extend your production hours.
That could be one of the solutions. However, I need to be twice the height of the panel mount away from the roof edge. But it will still work...
Hi, use those lifted panels with hinges only at the last row at the end of the roof so they will affect only the garden with the shade ;-)
These at the end of the roof could be motorized in one axis, so you can put them down on windy days, or add them some solar tracker...
I could imagine a self contained system that uses the power from the solar panel itself.
Using a micro controller and two photoresistors mounted in shallow tubing mounted in the corner of the solar panel.
The code for the micro would be very simple, just sample the photoresistors and tries to angle the solar panel to where the sensor gets the most light.
Yep, that's basically how these light sensors work which are part of the tracker system you can buy.
Thanks again for your effort! I always tend towards KISS. That means here: avoiding moving parts, using the whole area, putting the panels flat and using a string inverter, e.g. a Fronius. Not the cheapest solution and just buying the electricity could be cheaper. But if off-grid is really the target the solutions are not cheap right now ...
I watch you channel. I have accumulated 12 350w panels over the past few years. I mounted them all on the ground with homemade wood mounts and a rope to secure them to the mounts. Here at 35 degree North Latitude - I have been getting 250K watts a month; cloudy and sunny about equal this year. The 250K is not the maximum output each month, that is the amount of energy my house uses during the day. The maximum output would be around 630K a month. I did a few videos on troubleshooting an old panel and a charge controller. I started solar with 1200 watts the day before Christmas 1999 when I moved to this house. :)
You are focusing on maximizing the output of a single panel only. But since there is no way you can fit 4 panels in the optimum configuration on your roof, you instead should focus on the maximum average. So either you have 1 panel almost upright or 4 nearly flat. The combined output will be the same. So you can go for the easy mounting, less worries, etc.
Why not put as many as you can fit flat on the roof and get yourself another nice blue MPPT that fits these conditions? The inverter you have just doesn't seem like an ideal fit for what you want.
How am I supposed to connect these panels via DC back to the garage???
I made whole series of videos and why I have to use the existing pool power connection and this inverter. 😉
ua-cam.com/play/PLPomydD54sgDAZCaLsyuToXbAHR3zEVtS.html
Hallo Andy, bedenke bitte das die Windlast welche auf dein Dach und Gebäude wirkt, bei aufgestellter Montage sehr viel größer ist als bei flacher Installation.
Hi Andy, also interesting is the angle in cloudy conditions...a flat mounted solar panel might get reflections from the clouds...I even tested panels in shadowed position behind a thermal solar tube array....south east heading.....might be nice in winter.over here in Berlin..... as always....try & error ...😊
Clouds are not a problem as I explained. The garage/car port/big shed installation will produce a huge amount of energy then (dispersed light in cloudy conditions.
Hey Andy, when you have some spare time😂 could you please update the pictures on the VRM portal of your system, and also make links on your website to access your VRM portals for the Off Grid, Garage and power wall 2.0 thank you.
I cannot stop laughing about this spare time joke 😂😂 great!
I already have links on my website for both sites here:
off-grid-garage.com/victron-connect-through-raspberry-pi/
Hello Andy, I suggest 25-30 degree angle it will work the best for winter and summer also prevent dirt and leaves from staying on the panels. Beside you can mount 2 rows 2-3 meters apart if the panel was vertical i mean mounted vertically not horizontally i think it will work better for you at least you will mount 2 panels a time.
That's what I'm going to do...
Another benefit to the linear actuator... (aside from storm protection)
You could vary the angle of the panels to match the sun's inclination to maximize panel output throughout the day & seasons.
IE - near perfect SPAT calibration at all times
Yeah, that's less of a problem because as I said, I need this only for Winter to be as optimal as possible.
If MPPT charge controller firmware is smart enough it should be able to limit current even with overpaneling.
It won't. All MPPTs have a maximum PV power or max PV current in their specs. Ever wondered why that is?
Looking forward to the actuator build...even if it is just 1 panel. Experiments are fun, who want to go safe and predictable?
The project with actuator won't go ahead. I'll show this in one of the next videos... sorry.
all inverters are made to handle 30% over there stated amounts. I myself wouldn't want to do that. its like running an engine at max rpm it isn't good. 100% is what you should have max of suggested amount of solar. Just add another inverter or mppt controller.
You are wrong on the maximum input current of MPPTs. They will limit the current according to their limits, automatically.
Wrong.
Why would there be a limit in PV power or PV current in the specs of each solar charge controller if I could just parallel as many panels as I want? There are clear instructions and specifications. Going over will void warranty.
The max power point with one panel is different to the max power point with two panels in parallel.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia don’t know on these specific micro inverters, however operpanelling on charge controllers is a well-known and understood tactic, especially on Victron gear. I’ve overpanelled a 150/60 on 24V with 8x 530V panels (2s4p) for over a year for a solar plant project backup and had no issues whatsoever.
It is a fun numbers game. If you have dirt cheap panels and roof space.... cover every inch...Make it up on the average. If you have limited sky (in my opinion like you do) then some more expensive bifacials on an aluminum frame which is mounted on a rotor of some kind (a million ways) is the more efficient way to go. The real perk to a mover is if it is only sunny two hours in the day no matter what that is you still get max power from that two hours as the panel are at the optimal angle all day.
One even has to ask what is "efficient" Most power? Least money spent on gear? Are getting paid from the grid? As you say it more complex than you or most ever realize... It is still worth it.
Thanks!
Thank you very much🙏
@@OffGridGarageAustralia wish it was more
Hello Andy's,(one and two) FYI i have 2x375w panels connected to single mppt BeOn 250w no problem so far... i have the panels in vertical exactly to get better wattage during winter time 🤥
Depends on how much PV power your MPPT can do. Never heard about a BeOn controller.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia BeOn is Portuguese company so we are little as country and probably a small company too 😂😂😂
We need a "That is NOT GOOD" T shirt!!
Hi bud if you put your panels back to back you will not have shading , to catch morning and afternoon sun.
I 2nd, that is NOT GOOD 😁
@@thebeaglebeat3615 🤣
I must indeed, second that
Definitely!
Hi Andy, if you want to have a static frame, you could use 38/50mm ploy pipe, like you use for sink drains instead of timber. They can be adjustable manually as well,
Yeah, I had a play with some metal framing but all attempts failed due to the size of these panels. It won't work with one actuator.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia yeah definitely need two actuators Andy.. For price I would use poly pipe 50mm,
Lying all panels flat is obviously not an option, because in the evening 4 flat panels create less Watt (4 times 50 = 200) than one panel tilted. An many tilted panels will shade each other. So maybe the solution is a mixture with only one panel at the edge of the roof and at the other end tilted while the others lay flat - or some programming that automatically lowers the first three panels to flat and only tilts the last one that is then not shaded for maximum combined output. (?)
18:59 no that is just 10% more for 1 single panel and the price might be that you can only get 2 on the roof without too much shading and therefore it would require a simulation with PV Sol premium from Berlin to play around even though that might also misleading cause that looks for the output of a complete year not for particular 3 or 4 month of the winter.
Too steep does not really pay off except you are running out of power during winter.
This can be a 4 year long experiment to find your right compromise of getting 4 panels on the roof and the tracker right but I guess the tracker is the only real solution to maximise the winter output which should be useable due to you huge battery.
Just to let you know: last autumn we were not ready to mount all the panels on the roof and therefore laid 14 flat on a 20° roof with concrete tiles in northern germany.
Guess what has happened in the 6 months during the storm season with 14 panels each 550 Wp ?
Nothing, they had been laying there on long timber bars aka Dachlatten till I was able to mount them in May. Worked fine even though those were laying flat on a roof heading south so the west wind in the north could have picked those 30 kg panels up. Did not happen, even the vibrations had not a huge impact. In 6 month the Dachlatten with the solar panels moved just 10 cm, I mean 450 cm long bars slipped just less than 2/3 of the length of a tile or 20 cm bit by bit and not by a stronger gusty wind within an hour.
I guess you fear too much the wind load - and yes I took that risk and checked my daily weather report also the weather station regarding wind and storms cause in an emergency I would have tried to bring those panels a bit more to a lower part of the roof cause you now: the nicest spots with less shadow are the spots closer to the sun
Therefore I had 2 rows of 226 cm lon x 113 cm on the top edge of the roof and those collected a lot of power, and they will now deliver even more cause now they are fixed on the other half of the roof in a 10° steeper angle which I can now compare quite nicely with that flatter part of the roof.
I would start with an easier , mechanical solution where you can use maybe 3 different angles and also lay it flat in an emergency by hand simply till you have found out the right spacing and angles to chose. Maybe that might be enough for you and you can avoid such tracker or in particular 4 tracker which increases also the risk if you would use it for a constant tracker throughout the day. As I had told you the swedish guy had also one mishap or 2 when the control arm hit the panel in the back and cause scratches and some cuts in the foil which he instantly sealed with tape.
It will not always work 100% as he had mentioned in one video but the gains were worth the risks for him.
So start slowly with a mechanical solution and play with 4 modules, 3 angles or even 1 automatic one before going the big automation.
Also provides more content and a natural learning and teaching curve with all the faults you might make and we can learn from.
good luck from sunny hot germany, hottest june for a long time.
What about a frame that holds all 4 panels side by side and bottom to top. It would eliminate the shading and you could also Angle it Compoundly to maximize input. Essentially with the frame you'd have one larger panel instead of 4 small ones.
My other thought would be to build an Arbor or pergola for the pool and use the panels as the roof at the Angel you need them. Then you could also have a shaded sitting/lounge area for the pool or BBQ area.
Yep, I built one... in one of the next videos...
Bonjour ANDY, effectivement tes choix et solutions sont difficiles... merci pour la suite de l`enigme.
forget about shadowing: every single day from now on your shadows or in particular overshadowing will decrease
If you loose a bit for the next months then it is not so important except you start counting peas for the last kWh cause the gains over the day are far bigger than the losses in the last hours with low production figures. You trade in the shadow in the evening for higher performance over the whole day.
Yeah, I really had to wait for this time now to see the shading situation when the sun is at its lowest point. I think I have a solution now I can live with. Not perfect but workable...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Would have been too easy to wait for solistice to get the perfect solution, but for me the big difference and hard to understand was your description of your winter like a german summer without heat and shorter , but sunny days where you can harvest a lot during the day.
But it all depends if your are on the hunt for those last missing kWh it might be important to go for it - but I still would sugest to go for a date / day +/- 30 days before and afters of even +15 / -15 days cause you gain a lot more space for panels then and do not forget that you have your goals reached for 11 / 12 of the year, just for the last 30 days your panels might cause losses caused by shadow for the very first 30 or 60 minutes
Financially you will benefit far more by going a 11/12 route cause you can feed more into the grid.
i would get the trees trimmed back would solve a lot of shading issues in winter
That's not the point and also very costly.
I knew a mate that could climb trees like a monkey unbelievable and certainly risky ! he trimmed some very tall gumtrees back for me but guess that was in the old days now ,but yes many thousands of dollars for professional tree loppers be way too risky for me to do it myself so yes do see your point .Great channel you are very knowledgeable thanks i watch your Chanel with great interest Andy .
Why don't you test two parallel panels in one mppt channel using your ground pannels? You can gradually adjust the amount of power by tilting panels up an down and see what happens. And you can compare the results with a single panel in the second mppt channel. That would be an interesting video.
I did and the MPPT died...
You will have to just go with a shallower tilt angle that allows shading for 4 panels.
Only need to worry about spacing out three panels.
The fourth panel should be mounted on the steep part of the roof, behind the existing panels.
I will go back to my original design and have two panels next two each other and space the two rows further apart.
I drove myself crazy trying to optimize my installation.
I finally compromised with max winter production to compensate for shorter charging time and now with central Florida summer I usually full charge by 2 pm .
My winter production should be adequate but I will see.
Another informative video Andy.
Yes, same. I have now tried different things and have a clear (as mud) picture of what to do. I will proceed in one of the next videos...
Heya, it is more productive in a steaper angle but then it's gone be more complecated wen installing automated hydrolics
Hi Andy! I have read a few of the comments and there has been a repeat of only one idea and nothng new! I, on the other hand has a few not new ideas and maybe A few NEW ideas! The not so new idea is, remember back when in the older time, when your new panels haven't been installed yet and to get a little bit more juice to charge your batteries using a few more panels placed on the well pump concrete? Well, YOU SHOULD put at least TWO of your four panels on it, because as I saw it in the video(s), that it is also in the sunshine and MOST sure that it will also produce MORE juice to counter those panels solely on the ground and the one panel on the roof! And now for the NEW ideas:-(1) Measure the angles of the sun on a sunny day and then, average out the degrees to get the need average angle for the solar panels, to tilt up to and not worry aboul a 90° even 30° tilt, but one that will give you the best angle that give you the most juice output @ a fixed angle! (2) If you do as I had suggested, the build a simple frame out of either with all the older Aluminium solar support surplus, or wood/timber frame to the (1) angle, and then with at least two other aolar panels, place the frame on the well pump, and then place the two, vertically and side by side in the same frame on the well pump and voila, you have two more; giving you more juice to charge those batteries! (3) Build another frame, BUT vertical this time and then place it on the roof of your house using again the (1) instructions and then see if it is btter or not with the amount power you got the current arrangement of one on the roof and three on the ground! Remember Andy, if it does not work, then at least you've given it a try. BUT if it gives you a better result than what you current have, I am HAPPY to have given you ideas that actually give better returns then anyone else have commented or given ideas to you, so far! :)
Yeah, I thought about this. I'm not keen to drill in this concrete tank though. The top is domed so the water can run off and the metal frame/structure would be relatively complicated compared to the flat roof.
I also always believed that you can put more panels than supported and the inverter would simply not use them at full power.
Otherwise how would it work if you have 14w load but producing 600w? The inverter is consuming the current it needs, and not just being pushed the current from the panels.
No, that is not the case. The power point will move as well as the controller is trying to pull maximum power. Some controllers state the max PV short current as their limit, other have the maximum power of connected panels in their specifications.
You can overpanel Victron by ~30% but still need to stay in this current limitation. Some operation modes of the controller can short the panels and the MOSFETs need to cope with the highest current the panels will deliver.
If you exceed the A for your inverter it will not use more then that is it build for, in this case 12A. The voltage for the solarcell will just raise until they only can provide 12A because the mppt get out of range.
So I will just have been using some of your old solar panels and have put two on each input.
And yes I have been done that a lot of times before, and it's just work. Try it for a short period of time on all inputs at once - you know, just for the science (evil laughing with German accent, btw im from denmark).
And yes, the inverter will properly also limit itself at 2000w, try also that, before you do a lot with motors and over engineered stuff. I will every time like to see 8 panels laying flat on a roof instead of 4 angled like that. Then you won't get any problems with shadows.
I don't think this is correct though.
Why do pretty much all MPPT manufacturers have a max PV input power or a max PV input current if the MPPT would limit the output anyway?
I have tested this once with a MPPT. It died with t4 panels in parallel when the sun came out.
You could compromise. Keep a lower angle to reduce shadows. You will not get peak performance but it should be better than just flat.
Your limit is the shadow length and this is set by the angle. There will be a crossover point where you can add more panel(s) at a lower angle and generate equal power to fewer panels at higher angle. Lower angles are safer and you'll fit more on. Adding panels gives you more production in summer too - you can never have too much power.
Calculate how many panels will fit unshaded at various angles, measure the production at those angles during the winter day, see what combination fits best. It's about making power.
I was thinking this too. I may be oversimplifying the problem, (and I’m a massive fan of over engineering everything!), the 50W observed at the end there with the flat panel - cast little to no shadow, allowing 4 panels. By my poor maths, that’s 200W - or the same as the single panel at 80 degrees casting a shadow over the entire roof.
From that graph update in the final seconds of the video - it looks like the net gain is pretty negligible?
Add a mirror to reflect some extra light onto the panels? 😀
@@wallyhallYou dont oversimplify, you are right, the amount of sunlight on the roof is always the same, the question is how to harvest it.
Less panels with an steep angle vs more panels but flat mounted.
In the end it is cost of mounting system vs cost of more panels
Hi Andy. I have my ground mount panels on a horizontal pole with hinges and vertical poles/hinges hold the horizontal pole. The actuator tracks the sun throughout the year pushing or pulling the panels. Easy install. I find a 10 degree difference makes no difference in power output. I've had the system in use for many years without issue. Southern California I move from 5 degrees to 57 degrees. Having it all on horizontal poles /4 panels and actuators moving with 20 panels keeps my summer/winter even. No problem higher winds.
My panels are just ginormous! over 2sqm each, so a very large sail. Someone suggested a tower of power but that would be a huge construct for these panels. No shading problem though.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia the same size as mine. 400w 72cell. My horizontal pole holds 4. It balances in the middle of the panels rather than the edge. Less torque needed. Ebay actuators 6000N 1000mm stroke. In service 4 years. 2 gate hinges each panel tied from the horizontal pole to the vertical poles. 8 vertical poles. Heavy 2 inch conduit clamp ties the panel to the horizontal pole. Aluminum rail ties 4 panels together. The actuator moves the entire horizontal pole. High winds I move the panels horizontal position. Ground mount. If needed I can strap each end of the panel to the ground for very high wind.
The Tesla is making you do this Andy
🤪🤛.. time for a i2000 istabreeze for the More windy less sunny days 💪
I would love to install a wind generator. Just installing this 45m mast is a bit scary...
Hi Andy, Have you considered the possibility of mounting two panels, one as you have it and one near the edge of the roof, avoiding the worst of the long shadow, but then mounting panels three and maybe four up on the steeper sloped roof between the end and where the flat panel rows start? These of course can be raised to face the sun regardless of the steeper angle and they won't be shaded.
Yes, I will do something like this eventually...
Prepare fully machanized mounting and sun tracker to maximize output from solar panels in winter as well in summer which is secure from higher wind and also folded like a book to prevent loss from heavy hailing. Also moveable from shadow area to sunny area with the help of wheel mount trolly structure.
I think it will not make a difference it you have some modules tilt up with extra space to manage the shadows or if you have some more modules lying flat
Yes, you can always compensate with more panels for a not optimal angle. Just my micro inverter cannot take more panels.
Hi Andy. Nice Video. You mentioned that overpaneling your micro inverter has its limits in respect to the current. I think I still understood only parts. My understanding so far is, that I need to take care about the voltage of my solar charger, because it needs to be able to put the panels into open circuit voltage to stop the production. The mppt charge controller pulls up to the max possible current from the solar panels. So I thought it would never pull more than it can push into the batteries. I am also able to limit the battery charge current in my Victron Smart Solar 100/20. The default is 20 A, but when I switch it to 4 A it will only pull the amount of Ampere needed to get the battery loaded at its voltage and 4 A. So in which situation the charge controller will be destroyed, when too much current is available from my Solar Panels?
Victron has especially explained that you should not overpanel their MPPTs by more than 30%. There are certain operation modes of the controller where it shortens the panels and the FETs need to cope with the short current of all connected panels. Everything above 20A for your controller will void warranty.
I think 2 panels side by side at the end of the roof at high angle and 2 in front at a shallow angle will be the best solution or simply try a lower angel to all 4 panels that will be the best WAF
Yeah, something like this. I have to be away from the corner like 2x height of the panel mount though. So the whole structure needs to be moved forward a bit, away from the end of the roof.
Andy would it be possible to have 2 panels on the roof , 1 at 15 degrees and the other at say 40 degrees and see what the overall difference is in one day between the 2 panels
I can simulate this with the panels on the ground...
Interesting testing results. Seems like something in between might be a good compromise (like 20deg). Maybe just a fixed setup instead of the linear actuator idea will get the job done. I still think solar trackers are cool but not always worth the time/effort/expense. If you don't mind expending the resources, maybe you can just do a test tracking setup using one panel next to the pool fence and see how it turns out. Then, if it seems worthwhile, you can go wild on the roof.
Just want to say YOU are awesome. What a great channel and personality.
Wow, thank you!
Did you think about mounting 1 or 2 Panels at the Wall off the Building.
No.
As long as you just take the last set of solar panels and raise them up at an angle, you will effectively increase the total usable area. Think how much roof area the shadow covers. But maybe you should create something that also changes the azimuth (rabbit hole). 🙂
I have been waiting to see the correct calibration tool for weeks!
I need to do more calibration. Just to be sure 😂
What is that ap you are using for panel angle? How does that work? Are you pointing it at what to pick up the angle?
Interested, Andy. This is an interesting discussion about angle of panels. How much does it really matter?
Also interested to know the app name
It's in the video description, guys.
WAF...😂 I know what you mean, great
Hehehehe!
The mathematics for maximjum PV production is simple. Winter is latitude, plus 47 degrees, yearly is latitude plus 23.5 degrees. However the difference is not large. The additional cost of alignment should be balanced against the gain. A few extra panels makes up the difference.
consider side by side rather than one in front of the other ...
Yes, that's how I will do it...
Hi Andy,
Your channel has inspired me, and I just scored a deal on a 5 year old used 3kw solar system, which will be my first foray into solar. It's a Solar Edge system with 12 250W panels with what they call an "optimizer" for each panel, and includes a 3000W inverter, a watt meter and disconnect -- basically everything but the mounting system and some wiring.
I have limited south facing roof space, but plan to mount some of the panels as awnings above the south facing windows. In addition to having them as awnings on the 2nd story windows, I am thinking of mounting some of them on the 1st story as a full length awning that will cover not only the windows, but continue over a sidewalk and rear-entry on the south side of the house.
Here in northern Oregon we are at quite a high latitude --45.5 degrees so setting the awnings at around 30 degree tilt should work well year round. Well, somewhat well -- as we have a lot of rain and clouds during the late fall, winter, and early spring here in the western part of the Oregon. No storage plans as of yet -- but I am looking forward to having the system help offset my air conditioning costs in the summer. Anything above that will be a bonus....
Thanks again for your inspiring channel!
Philip from NW Oregon, USA
Would be fun to build a DIY solar tracker. Hippie Hill Homestead did one on UA-cam two years ago.
Or get a ECO Worthy Solar Tracker kit.
Or maybe one from China?
Never underestimate Andy Engineering AU
Yes, one day is great, the next one not so much. It's impossible get this right. There is always a compromise.
Andy, I have an off topic question. Is there some way to monitor battery voltage via a phone app? I am looking for something to check my system voltage while I am away. I have an Outback Power Systems setup that has been working for over 15 years and has worked flawlessly.
Not sure if there is anything for the Outback system. If they have some sort of API, you can connect it to Home Assistant I assume and monitor it from anywhere.
I have a controller question.
I just got a charge controller that advertised as a MPPT style and in reading the operation booklet it says PWM charging. Is there a way to tell which style it really is?
Open it and see if there is an inductor inside. Then it's an MPPT.
Also the specs will tell you. If the maximum PV voltage is close to the battery voltage, it's not a MPPT.
In the late times of the 80 the we said: scheisse der geht.
Yes, hahaha. Media Markt Leipzig!
The area of the roof is the area of the roof and the relative angle of the sun is the angle of the sun. you can't change either of those! All you can do is to maximise the capture and ime, as solar panel costs have fallen, then the best option is simply to fit as many pannels as you can in as cheap a way as possible. Complex moutns with trackers and actuators all cost a lot of money, money that is better used to simply buy another panel. The shaded area from an angled panel shows the effective area of that panel if it were parallel to the roof, and clearly, in order to avoid shading all you are doing is trading off panel capture vs overall area ie angled panels have to be mounted far enough apart so as to mimic the total (shadow) area.
Most MPPT controllers should be smart enough to avoid an overcurrent situation, either on the input or output side so long as there maximum input voltage is respected. Flat panels will have a lower voltage at IMP as the effective irradiation is lower, so you should be able to put these panels in series as long as you ensure the max input voltage cannot ever exceed the controllers input spec.
The ratio of input to output current also depends upon the battery voltage into which the controller is bucking (step down Dc/Dc). With most controllers you want your battery voltage to only be slightly lower than the lowest panel string voltage at which you want to start driving current into the battery to minimise the controllers losses and maximise it's power capability ie a 20Amp output limit is 240w at 12v, and 480w at 24v
Du kannst doch noch ein oder zwei Platten auf den Wasserbehälter stellen. So wie ich das gesehen habe, war da immer viel Sonne...
Not in the morning... the roof is just the best option. Also, the tank is not straight on the top and requires some additional racking.
You seem to have some sort of round(ish) surface right next to your roof. I don't know how sturdy that surface is, as it comes into view only very short every time, but you do seem to walk over it without hesitation, so it could probably be pretty solid. Can you put some panels onto there next to each other, spanning the entire diameter of the round surface, then pan the entire array towards the sun instead of having the panels on the roof and changing their tilt? If you pan the entire array, you won't have to bother about putting up multiple rows, so no worries for putting shade onto next-row panels. If you pan the entire array, all panels will be at the optimum angle towards the sun for most of the day and should produce maximum output all day long.
I say go complicated.. do your sensors. Actuators and all that. Get them to track the sun... be an amazing project..do it do it do it lol
Why you not use a second micro inverter and use all your 8 panel (four on each inverter) flat on the roof. You you even not overpower your multiplus.
The cabling back to the garage inverter allows only 2.4kW, so the electrician gave me a 10A input for this inverter for this location.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia But with 8 flat panel you will not reach the 2,4kw in winter? You can put a Sonoff Switch before the second micro inverter and do a routine in home assistant to automatically shut down this inverter, when the power exceed 2,4kw.
@@digitalmoba Yeah, but if this does not work, it's overloading the line. Such a construct can be done as a second 'safety' measure but cannot be relied on.
If HA is not working, the Sonoff has no reception or the relay inside is faulty, it could be bad. I would not want to rely on such setups for such an important task.
Turning on hot water or the pool pump if the battery is full is fine for HA but anything safety related, I would not trust it...
A friend of me tested that, you can Connect 2 pannels parallel with your Inverter 👍 running since 6 month
Deye sun 2000 and on one Channel 2 x tw solar 415
That makes sense.
There is no reason why the mppt should track for more power beyond its own limits.
Yeah, I wonder why all MPPTs have a maximum PV input power and maximum PV input current in their specs when it does not matter?
I tested with one MPPT I had and one of these large panels. It died after half a day.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia schould i send you a Screenshot of the Power curve from Solarmann? 2 x 415w parallel on one deye 2000 Chanel? I have to say the Volt ist quiet Low ~32 Volt so the deye never Take more than 12,5 a so this one Channel only make 400w but a very Long Time of the day
While not interesting and edgy, a small fixed tilt would be most practical and best bang for the buck. Or be entertaining; and do a gimble mounted solar tracking sytem with laser beams.
If you put the panels flat on the roof, dont you actually get more power output because if the higher possible pv area (non shaded area)? Of course only id you fully populate the roof :)
Think abbout in a way like you get a certain power for flat surface. You can set up one panel and create a certain amount of power an create a certain amount of shadow. If you lay so many panels to cover this shadow you would earn more are less the same amount of power when sun is shining but muuuchbh nor power when it's cloudy
Just put tilting on the first and last panel?
My 2cts, do not optimize for times after 3pm, so shading isn't too long, the first panel will always yield the most and the rest will do good until around 2pm. Isn't the most optimal but maybe the best. Good luck finding the golden bullit!
Yeah, I have to make some compromises. I think I have now found a good (not great) solution.
magnets on metal roof with feet how I done it on my boat I can change the angle and track the sun the rare earth magnets hold 300kg pull strength I have 4 on each panel never had a problem on storms they hold strong if we have a major storm I just drop them
Is there any reason why you couldn't leave that one panel where it is.
Put a second panel on the round water storage.
And put panels 3 and 4 on the tilt angle at the end of your main house panels.... as all the main house panels lay flat and don't cast any shadow....
The water tank is not straight. It has a dome shaped top so additional mounting structure would be needed and I don't know how safe this lid is. I never went in the middle. The filled cracks are concerning.
Andy the sun tracker 😎🌤️ if they could develop a panel material that could maximize withe in 20 degrees of direct sunlight 😊
I'd probably just set up different arrays at different directions so you can get good sun at different times of day. The actuator stuff is cool and I'm sure a great option it's just kinda complex and I'm not sure how dependable it would be. I'm shooting for the set and forget kinda solar system... but if you got the money and time... I guess
The single actuator stuff will not work with these panels as they are too large. I experimented with a steel frame underneath. This was still not satisfying enough. So, a static mount it will be. Tilted though...
It make me sad that you might not be using actuators at this time. It makes sense what you've chosen though, doing it requires a lot of work for not very much gain.
It's really not that hard to diy a lumen based DIY, all axis system with the knowledge you've gained over the years. There are great people in the world that have made open source programing you can use. It makes sense to take some time to present all the options from a content point of view though. I hope to see you get there one day. It's the best way to do solar if you are on land.
I tested some framing of the solar panels in the garage (video coming) and found these panels are just far too large for a single actuator. The corners will wobble and swing and I have concerns that the solar cells under the glass will break over time from this movement.
Ach komm, in Australien bekommt man Oettinger? Prima 😎
Schon immer!
Mayday mayday mayday...
Andy ich hatte heut nen Geistesblitz.. Nur leider keine Module über zum probieren.. Ich vermute das dir damit geholfen sein könnte.
Ich hab vor jahren mal mit Spiegele experimentiert und hatte lustige Ergebnisse... Aber das wäre zu kompliziert.
Nur mal ein versuch..
Leg ein Modul flach und ein zweites direkt dahinter 90 grad.. Die Reflektion beider Module trifft ja jeweils das andere. So meine Vermutung..
Keines der beiden würde je die volle Leistung bringen aber beide nahezu konstant die selbe Leistung... Egal wie hoch die Sonne steht.. Wie gesagt ist nur eine Vermutung und würde es sofort probieren.. Hab jedoch keine Module zur Hand aktuell..Vielleicht bin ich ja auf dem Holzweg.. Aber Motoren aufs Dach mit ner Steuerung käme mir auch nicht in die Tüte
Interesting thought... I'll test this out! Thanks for sharing.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia weißt schon.. So wie bei nem Radarreflektor , wo sich 3 Flächen im rechten Winkel gegenüber stehen.. Nur eben hier mit 2
15-20 degree. Plus more panels to compensate energy loss.
Try an angle that allows them all to fit in the desired area accounting for shadows.
.
Two panels side by side like your original orientation and put them at high angle as close to the back end of the roof and then a second pair with minimal angle to avoid shading the panels behind them. You get 2 panels with best output and two additional that avoid shadowing impacts.
Yeah, I will build something like that...
Dont you have an Angle/Level Meter? There are apps you can download.
2. Simple Rules of Thumb
Here are two simple rules of thumb for finding your solar panel angle:
Rule of Thumb: Set your solar panel tilt angle equal to your latitude.
Seasonal Adjustments: Subtract 15° in the summer. Add 15° in the winter.
This method won't result in the optimal tilt angles, but it'll get you really close.
Retired satellite dish mount 12ft or greater full solar polar mount with full duel axis-es optic eye,... repurposed. AT the very least use them as your working, example ............... but they doo have all the parts.......already.
eBay, I guess? 😁
Hi Andy, warum nicht mit einem Gasdruckdämpfer aus der Autoindustrie.
Für den gewünschten Winkel gibt verschiedene Größen. Sind nicht teuer und funktionieren. Kannst du Windlast einklappen. Is ein bisschen Bastelei!
Den unteren Teil muss man tiefer setzen, sonst bleibt das Modul nicht unten.
Eventuell links und rechts zwei Sperren setzen, nur zur Sicherheit, damit das Modul bei Windlast wirklich unten bleibt.
Liebe Grüße aus Ludwigsfelde Theo
Thanks for your informative videos. I have a couple of questions if you don't mind answering
1. We use NMC nissan leaf cells in a 14S configuration. A BMS is fitted, but this only has top end balancing through resistors giving a 1 amp maximum current dissipation. I would like to add an active balancer. All your batteries seem to be LFP, so completely different working voltage range. Can you please recommend an excellent active balancer that works with NMC cells?
2. Our battery is being expanded from 20kWh to about 50kWh (hence the active balancer). I would like to monitor the voltage of each cell-stack. I would like something with a large digital voltage display, with one display per cell-stack. Can you please recommend a cheap voltage meter that operates in the NMC voltage range (4.2 - 3.4V)
Thanks in advance for any help, and keep up your excellent work
Hello Andi, think you Need a Stihl Chainsaw. Klar mehr Panels sind immer toll, aber deine Schattensituationen sind halt nicht so wirklich toll. :( Grüße aus Süd Deutschland
ich glaub: tilt system mit 2 parallelen schienen, das alle 4 panels gleichzeitig bewegt, wärs. am schluss könnte das ganz vordere panel auf 90grad, sprich gerade stehen. oder alle liegen flach im ruhezustand.
This guy is getting watts confused with voltage and amps. He's comparing a micro inverter to a home inverter. So your home inverter is 3000watts max but 150v and 60amps. So you can add as many panels as you like as long as you keep under these last two values.
So you could have 6 strings of 120v and 8amps which is 5760 watts. The inverter would be OK but wouldn't be too happy in summer time as it turns access power in to heat.
You wouldn't get 5760watts but you would get a constant 3000watts which is great. I've tried and tested this but not as crazy as 5760watts, just 4000+watts. This works great in the winter. The inverter "clips" the power to the max wattage of the inverter. Most solar installers now add extra panels above the wattage of the system inverter so in winter you produce more. It maybe a legal requirement in some states. I'm surprised Andy hasn't shown you this test. Maybe a future video.
Nope, not confused at all.
You cannot have unlimited panels in parallel with any MPPT. They clearly state either max PV power or max PV current which can be connected.
One panel connected to an MPPT has a certain power point, two panels in parallel connected to this same controller will have a different power point the controller tries to reach. Similar voltage as with one panel but... exactly, twice the current.
Some controllers (like the Victron) can limit the output current and, yeah, some people use this as a free ticket to heavily overpanel these controllers. Victron explained though, that under certain circumstances the controller can shorten the PV input for a while as part of the charging algorithm and hence need to be able to deal with the PV short current as stated in the specs.
I was talking to a solar designer a couple months ago about a 100MW system they are installing and I asked about tracking and he told me it's a no brainer because it adds only 5% cost for 15% more production.
Obviously this probably would not make sense for a small system like yours because the costs of doing a tilt system. Would be far higher than 5% I suspect.
Just add more panels.
With better orientation, I can get 20%+ more energy over a day from what I tested. So that's pretty worth it for me...
You need a Solar'tree' which is selfcentering to the Sun. These systems are not new, but in wintertime for u very efficient.
And they look nice. Just not viable with these large panels. Although... it's just a matter of size.
Andy, ditch the roof idea, way too much shade. Just put 4 panels in portrait on top of the tank (or above the tank). You could make a motorized tilt for maximum production. Just my 2 cents.
The tank is not ideal and I'm hesitant to drill into it. Also the top is domed and in a round shape. There is also more shading on the tank than on the roof.
Hi warum machst du nicht am Ende deiner bestehenden Anlage eine Art Geländer 90 Grad (Zaun) . Am Ende des Daches. Da sollten 4 Module nebeneinander hingehen.
Love your videos. Big fans. My question is is why haven't they or are they available yet that you can buy solar panels that have Wi-Fi or Bluetooth connection? I mean they have that connected to pretty much everything else. I just wonder if they are any solar panels out there that you can connect to your phone or tablet without having to use some other kind of device to see what the wattage and power is. And yeah I get it. If you hook Wi-Fi or Bluetooth up directly to a solar panel you would lose a little bit of power. But I think Bluetooth ain't like seven or eight watts To me. I would get that much up if I had Bluetooth capabilities with my solar panels on each individual panel. How nice would that be?
What data would you need from solar panels? Voltage, current, power, yield? This all requires sensors, shunts, electronics for very much no benefit?