6:45.... I dunno... .. does Matt throwing a bedpost ashanderei with a dagger duct taped at the top thru ishamaels back really count as matt stabbing rand with the shadar logoth dagger thus fulfilling mins vision?
I think that having Elayne at least partially heal Rand is essential to their arc. You have to remember that they scrapped the Rand Caemlyn plot where the seeds of Rand and Elayne are sown. Now that this is the first meeting for the two with Rand being barely conscious and seeing this angel esc healer above is quite moving and I think much needed to set up chemistry between the two as they will always have that connection from when he was healed.
Yep, I like how it was a clumsy healing job also. Like it shows just enough that Elayne is powerful, but not so much that she comes across as a Mary Sue, same when Egwene's air shield starts to falter as Ishamael is toying with her.
I think that they wanted a reason for the partial healing of the wound that non book readers would get. Elaine just isn't super good at healing, but with Nyneave unable, Elayne was better than nothing. After the over the top healing of all of the people at once last season, no one would buy that Nyneave was going to do less than perfectly heal Rand's booboo.
Yeah, they have to have SOME moment. It felt like they literally said "what is the fastest way we can set this up". Did you notice how Aviendha was there like 5 seconds later fawning over him from a mile away "Look, It's the Caracarn!"
I struggled most with 1) they pull an arrow shaft out of Elayne's leg and just... walk away, and 2) Rand just kinda nonchalantly walks up to ishamael (through Egwene's shield) and puts the sword in him - just felt very simple.
This exactly! If they had to scrap Rand and Turak sword fighting, at least they could’ve had a decent fight scene with Ishy! I didn’t need to see Lan fight off 15 Seanchan. They could’ve used that time for Rand to fight.
Rand's fights were flatter than the Nullarbor plain. The one effective thing he did made no sense in the context of the show without some sort of inner turmoil from Lews leaking out which again still wouldn't have made sense in the show since they've pruned him back to nothing more than a nub of his character.
@Reoh0z aye, you're referring to him killing ten people in one go. Where did he pulled that out from? It was no desperation move, he looked damn sure when he stepped up.
I don't get this stupid trope of pulling out an arrow. Every medical professional knows to just let an object in there until a surgeon (in this case Aes Sedai) comes, otherwise you will have bad internal bleeding. And Elayne just walking around after that... why, just why? They should have cut that scene
My biggest beef with the show so far is that Rand basically does nothing. They make him out to be completely incompetent. Him killing forsaken at the end of book one was scrapped in the show. Him having an epic battle with Ishamael at Toman Head was also scrapped. Instead they has Egwene inexplicably hold him off until Rand was again saved by his friends (seems to be a theme in the show), then he just strolls up and shoved a sward through the chest of Ishamael with zero resistance? No awesome display of the One Power by the Dragon reborn for all to see as his defeats Ishamael in the sky. Instead Moraine creates a cartoonish looking dragon so everyone knows who he is. Because, again, the show makes Rand completely incompetent. The strongest, most powerful person in the entire world, does absolutely nothing in the show. Then having Mat accidentally stab Rand with the tainted dagger. Having the dragon reborn nearly killed on accident by his best friend. Why? Just why? Mat is arguably the most competent character in the entire book series and they turned him into a drugged out buffoon who nearly ended the world right then and there.
Because it's loosely based on the books, I dont' think there's ONE studio that's competent and respectful enough about the lore to do a good book to tv adaptation. Let's see if it completely goes stupid in season 3 :)
Spot on. I'm trying not to ruin my wife enjoying the show by constantly spewing venom but I absolutely despise nearly every decision Judkins has made. He is an agenda pushing hack who refuses to allow any competent male characters in HIS show. And make no mistake that he is making this show for himself only. He has consistently given two middle fingers to the huge and passionate WoT fan community. He is totally abusing the honor that Harriet bestowed on him and betraying the trust she put in him to make a worthy adaptation. Harriet should have insisted that she or Brando Sando have final approval of any major changes to plot or characters.
I'm not a book reader but I feel, it's coming, even though we've not gotten it yet, I mean, he's the most powerful channeler in the entire lore, even if they wanted to block him off it's inevitable
@@alextaras7176 It will, rest assured of it. They will divert so far from the books as to be unrecognisable. I for one will no longer watch this crap, my time is too precious for that.
Where I agree the Nyn shoulda been the one to heal Rand, I think it was a nice call back to the first time Rand and elayne met with her tending to his wounds.
Yeah... he's still her baby bird. That saved it for me. It's kind of a wink wink easter egg to acknowledge to book readers that we skipped the entire Caemlyn arc in S1.
Yeah but who tended to Elayne's wound ? Nynaeve didn't even put a compression bandage on it. It's a wonder Elayne didn't keel over from blood loss on the way to the top of the tower.
This episode (and this season generally) was such a mixed bag. There are things I absolutely love: This portrayal of Moghedien is very interesting and creepy (she almost seems like she could be a villain in "Dexter', real serial killer vibes), the scene of Ishamael being enraptured by "nothing at all" actually felt earned. They layed the ground work for it well this season. As usual the performers are doing such a good job with the material and the performances they give continue to keep my interest for the show alive. The things I didn't love can basically be boiled down to two things: plot contrivance, and sacrificing plot consistency and world building for the sake of making a dramatic scene. I find it so frustrating. The three oaths are apparently not worth the paper they are written on. Not just in this episode but previous ones. They are ignored when convenient to make a cool dramatic scene. Matt just suddenly remembers his past lives because he needs to remember them because it's part of his character progression but they can't figure out how to do that so they just tack it on as an effect of the horn. It feels lazy and cheap and unearned. I didn't get any stakes in the confrontation with Ishamael because he didn't feel like a threat. He doesn't just shield Egwene form the power because it's much cooler for the scene if blasts ineffectually at her shield (which he should be able to batter his way through anyway but never mind). Then he just stands there and lets Rand kill him. Like "Oh well plot says I need to die now". Time will tell if they can fix the problems with the writing - I am holding out hope for that. Because there is a lot I really like about this series. I am on the whole enjoying the show, even if the writing can sometimes drive me up the wall. I think you are absolutely right about the seasons need to be ten episodes at least. They are trying to cram too much into a shorter season and it just feels like they are really struggling to make it work.
I believe the whole deal with Nynaeve is that she is not just terrified of the one power but she is scared that every time she uses it something bad happens to the people she cares about. She is almost broken in a way that makes sense based off what has happened to her this season
Ok I was trying to figure out why the recap flashed back to Ryma, but maybe this is why- because the last time she found a way past her block, something absolutely terrible happened. Helping to prime us for why she might find it impossible to break through this time. It was hard for me because I did expect book Nynaeve who can get herself angry and channel when she needs to, especially to heal.
@@abmilhans which would of been better and actually make sense. Not surrendering because of fear is perfect. Being too angry to be afraid so she can channel just makes sense.
Nynaeve's block is not playing well to me, especially after all of the hype about her strength. And the show seems to play fast and loose with relative power. Why didn't Lanfear sidestep Mogedien's trap? Until then she was unstoppable. And why did Ishy die when Lanfear appeared to be immortal?
@@danhenley9495 Lanfear was “killed” by a regular blade with no power behind it. I think Nynaeve is the new Mat. We have to wait for her first arc to finish and they are setting Mogi up to have more courage and power. Nynaeve and Mogi….Mogi trapped Lanfear. Lanfear is stronger, but maybe overconfident like Nynaeve would have been before this utter humbling. Mogi has joker level crazy vibes now. Love that. Dark Bork.
I don’t understand why they won’t let Rand have his big moments. We saw him draw in a HUGE amount of the One Power with Logain where he tells him, “with that much power you can fight anyone” and then we get nothing. They should’ve had him at least draw in a huge amount of the One Power (maybe using the “sa’angreal” Moiraine gave him) where it made Ishamael scared and then finish him. Or, in the moment, since the horn was blown and Mat remembered his pasts, I thought that maybe Lews Therin would take over in Rands mind to beat Ishy. But no, let’s let Egwene and the whole team get the dub. Aside from the scene with Logain, they haven’t given us anything to make us think Rand is this powerful, messiah character who is to save the world and break it. If anything, they’ve made Lanfear, Egwene, Moiraine, and Nynaeve seem like they have way more raw power. Even Ishy didn’t seem that impressive. For a second I thought they were going to have Egwene beat Ishamael lol. I liked the episode and can live with changes, but for me they’re missing the mark with the Dragon Reborn’s moments.
It would have been better if Rand had wrecked most of the seanchen and white cloak ships while he was fighting lord fingernails blade to blade. They didn't build up his blade work at all though. It wouldn't have made sense to pure.shpw watchers.
Agreed. I was also half expecting Lews Theron to seize the One Power and battle Ishamael above the skies of Falme. It seems inconsistent with both the books and the show that Ishamael was so weak compared to Egwene. I rated this episode really low just based on dubious writing decisions, but otherwise Season 2 was a good step forward, IMO.
I enjoyed the battle, it was really good. A shame they didn't know what to do with Elayne and Nynaeve, for they did almost nothing the entire episode. They nerfed Rand A LOT. He doesn't even feel like a protagonist anymore; the showrunners gave Egwene and Moiraine a lot more to do, wich is a shame. Also, Rand stabbing Ishmael the way he did must be one of the lamiest scenes I've ever seen on TV. Mat's arc was awesome thou.
I'm struggling here. What was good about the battle? Bad special effects, plenty of plot holes, deus ex machina, cringe and unmemorable fight scenes and a final boss battle where his most powerful moves were some Spider-Man fire zaps. Then he got stabbed. I struggle to see what people liked about it.
@@ziegfeld4131 Well, the Egwene from the books would not have been able to shield Ishamaels blows at all. The show makes her much more powerful than Rand, which is just ridiculous.
One thing that was laughably bad though: the gate scene with the incense kids. The two Seanchan guards are like "duhhhh hey, what's going on?" The only thing that could've saved that for me is if they showed the kids approaching, then we get the "duhhhh" stares, then they rewind the kids back to their original position and show them approaching again, then "duhhhhh", then rewind the kids back again.... That scene was 100% Monty Python.
For me, the big book change is having Rand's first unHealable wound being caused by the Shadar Logath dagger. That creates a major change that has huge implications down the way in the story. The second wound will have to be changed in order to preserve the dichotomy that leads Rand to learn how to cleanse Saidin, as another slash from the same dagger won't do that.
As to Rand needing a more epic moment, I agree. I think a small change that would have done it and resolved how easy Ishmael went down is add some CGI while Rand is walking up with his sword. Show Ishmael trying to channel something at Rand and Rand overpowering it to push through with the sword.
@@andreastimper9848cry us a River, if you think it’s shit then that’s fine but your not everyone, I actually enjoy the show and hope it gets more season to come, your a hater like just don’t watch
I was very disappointed with Rand's battle with Turok and Ishamael. Let's see what it takes to earn a heron mark blade on this side of the ocean. As a book fan, I really wanted an epic showdown.
@@AloisiaSedai However she was just as petty and pouted the same in private like she did in this episode. I do remember her being more scared/respectful of Semirhage in the books compared to how she interacts with Ishamael in the show tho.
There were a couple of moments I didn't like - Turak no fight among them, but overall, they did stick the landing, in my opinion. When the Andor Six gets together, the emotions are perfectly aligned and I even cried a bit.
I thought the encounter with Turok was very Indiana Jones-esque and finally let Rand flex his muscles. It also echoed Liandrin's speech to Nynaeve in S2E1 about not bothering to fight hand-to-hand when the One Power is much more powerful.
Rand hasn’t earned a sword fight tbh. So on that point I’m glad it didn’t happen. But I wish he had been set up for it better. But oh well it got a laugh out of me
I think we'll see that in S3. I'm 95% sure we'll see Bel'al first (I think we'll see Bel'al, Sammael, Rahvin, and Demandred as "the boys," since I don't think Asmodean is needed if Logain is going to teach Rand), and they'll use Bel'al (a blademaster) to show off Rand's swordmanship AND channeling prowess (Bel'al being one of the weaker Forsaken let's the show still demonstrate that even a schlub amongst the Chosen is still far beyond anything this Age thinks is power).
So was I, until I realized that between the dagger/staff thing, him knowing the old tongue, and that line about “remembering”, they’re probably going to cut the snakes and foxes (which legit ought to be criminal).
@@OtherTheDave it's possible, but not sure anyone will let him keep the dagger, and they have to figure a way to do something about his connection to the horn, since the foxes did that
@@Ashwgun I wouldn’t be surprised if they skip the whole “connected to the horn” part, but you might be right about the other. I hadn’t thought of that. Aside from that first guard, it seems to have lost its insta-kill power though, so maybe nobody will notice? You still have a fair point, though.
I think the show runners have shown they can do a good job with this show if they have more time and more episodes. Now if Amazon knew how much those two extra episodes would do us good….
I think Amazon bears blame. But you can't complain about 8 episodes when you spend the equivalent of 2 episodes out of 16 on plot lines that do not have anything to do with the main characters. Not talking about liandrin. That is simply fixing RJs 2 dimensional villain problem by fleshing her out brilliantly and showing motivation. No, I'm talking the Steppin storyline (as beautiful as it was, it had NO PLACE in the 1st season) and the Alanna/Warders/Lan storyline that a) turned Lan from an actualized character with a past, with motivations and with personality, into a character who cannot exist without Moiraine. If he was female, he would not have passed the Beschedel test. B) played on manufactured tension between Lan and Moiraine and Lan and Alanna/Warders. Alanna doesn't matter. There are plenty of awesome Aes Sedai to beef up scenes for. Alanna is actually a pretty terrible person and effectively becomes a useless tool. She could be written out of the show and no one would notice, plot wise. Seriously. What role has she played? To contrast, the Moiraine Aravene scenes were so well done, I still think they should have been there. They do a great job of giving us more characterization for Moiraine. They let us breathe (though they maybe could have given us more world building or info to do double duty.) Alanna scenes really ended up doing little to nothing. Then suddenly they are with Siuan and then in cairhien. So no, Amazon doesn't bear the blame for squandering 2/16 episodes AT THIS POINT. Later, perhaps. These stories can be wonderful of done right (Steppin for example.) But when time is expensive and your main characters still need characterization- esp Rand, Mat, Perrin- it is wasteful to spend it on people/stories that dont matter. That's on the writers, not Amazon.
@@ianohlander This might be unpopular but I don't think Liandrin needed more than two dimensions. There are so many villains in that universe that not everyone can be fully fleshed out. I'd rather see some depth to more important villains like Padan Fain. On a side note, up until the last episode of season 2, they did pretty well with Ishamael.
On the suspension of disbelief: Marvel movies and shows are easy to suspend those thoughts because their world is inherently silly & ridiculous. Wheel of Time is a world of rules (that occasionally can be broken), where things operate in a certain way especially in regards to magic. The writers keep on breaking those rules in favor of spectacle, which is unnecessary given the source material. The power levels for the magic system are all over the place at this point and dont make sense. There was emphasis put on how inexperienced all these kids are in fighting and channeling through S1 & S2. Angreal & linking were all necessary in order to achieve certain levels of channeling. Then we are given the following this episode: 1. Egwene holding off Ishamael by herself with almost no training, and Ishamael content to just stand there. He does not seem threatening at all. 2. Elayne healing a wound from the "insta-kill" dagger with almost no effort... doesnt seem so scary at this point 3. Long distance blocking/stilling... AFTER they emphasized you need to see and be close to the person your blocking (at least at this point in the story :)) 4. Moiraine destroying a whole Seanchan fleet The magic at this point has no rules and is simply used to further the plot. That completely removes me from the story. This could have been written in a much more satisfying way that did not come across as ridiculous: Have Moiraine link with the girls and be the one to hold Ishamael, then combat the fleet. There powers combined in this instance would be much more believable in the world they set up. On not having enough time: GoT's more successful seasons ran roughly 540 minutes a season, this season of WoT was ~520 minutes. I believe they had enough time but the way it was written was wasting time and taking away from things that truly mattered for THIS story. Some the scenes added were great television, but they didnt contribute to the story that needs to be told. Some examples in this episode and throughout the season: 1. Moiraine & Lan being teleported far away. I get that Lanfear would most likely betray them, but having them with the others would have cut down on time showing them walking along the beach. 2. Elayne being shot with an arrow, then nothing coming from it. This didnt need to be there and we would have gotten to the same conclusion. 3. The Moiraine/Lan story arc that ultimately did nothing and went nowhere. She can channel again. 4. Liandrins arc. Controversial? Yea, I know, shes a great actress and it was compelling, but we could have used that time to be with our main characters and had even more impactful moments with the people we need development from... not just a side character. Ultimately S2 was better than S1. The effects, set pieces, cinematography, and story were all better... but not by much. We're going in the right direction, but not quick enough to sustain a show that costs so much to make. S1 was a 5/10 for me, average television with a flashy budget. S2 sits at a 6/10 for me. They fixed the technical aspects of it, but the writing is still the weakest point. I dont need or expect a 1/1 adaptation, but I do expect a coherent world with rules and logical steps in development (according to the world its set in). Im not at the point where I CANNOT WAIT to tell people about this show and thats a problem.
Honestly my favorite parts were all with matt they really did him justice as he is my favorite character in the books. Loved when he screamed his war cry in the old tongue! Its time to toss the dice!
I was looking forward to hearing your thoughts on how Moiraine handled the Seanchan ships! Can we get a video about that in the future? I know you think a lot about hard magic systems, and internal consistency, and I'm still struggling to reconcile Mo's actions with the Oaths!
I thought the same thing: that Uno was really Gaidal Cain. I was nearly cheering when he came back! Loved the episode-and I am a book reader. Mat and Egwene were the MVPs, IMHO. The only part I didn't like was that they gave Nynaeve nothing to do except wring her hands.
I thought Uno coming back as a spirit for a hot second was gloriously cheesy. Big epic TV needs a bit of that. And I think Nynaeve not *being able* to do anything in a major moment is building to an epic moment where she can finally channel what she wants *when* she wants (because her big time channeling moments have come when she wasn't trying or was actively trying to not use so much power).
I think torturing the captured sul'dam, and then feeling that sul'dam die with an arrow in her neck messed Nynaeve up more than they were able to convey in the episode. Add that to the way she has been struggling with the block and I was not surprised she could not pull herself together to channel during the battle.
I don't know how about him being Gaidal Cain. But he did look like a her from books the moment he showed up. Something about his weapon and shield. I like that he is a hero.
If they werent going to give Rand his moment, bit rather shield him abd need saving AGAIN, at least they could have given more plausibility to Egwene defending for minutes by herself against Ishy, by having Nynaeve and/or Elayne assist her. Otherwise, I gave this ep an 8/10.
What I appreciate the most about your reviews is that you are honest and fair. You are neither a Bookcloak nor a Showcloak. I wish I could separate my bookreader self from my show watching self the way you are able to do. This is one of the few times where I wished that I had never read the books so that I could watch this show without expectations or foreknowledge. I have watched every episode the second it has been released and I DESPERATELY want to love it. I've been waiting for an adaptation for most of my adult life and I've devoured all the online content I could since the announcement that the show would be made. I loved the casting. I had some trepidation when it came to the selection of the showrunner due to his network tv background but he seemed to love the books so I wanted to give him a fair shake. I understand that this is an adaptation of a gigantic series of highly detailed novels so I knew cuts had to be made, characters and stories would have to be blended, etc. I felt like my loins were sufficiently girded but they clearly were not. I was disappointed in Season 1. I thought the production values were very network tv level. The acting seemed really solid but the writing just felt...off. It didn't feel prestige level, it felt like Thursday at 9 PM on ABC level. Covid threw a giant monkey wrench into the production so I was willing to write off season 1 as something that was disappointing but was laying the groundwork for something better in the future. Immediately upon starting the second season I could FEEL the upgrade as far as production values were concerned. The CGI was better, the world felt more expansive and lived in, the acting continued to improve. I knew that they had written themselves into some corners due to Covid but I was hopeful that they could get back on track as far as the characters and the overarching plot arcs. I think my own expectations are what have led me to my profound sense of disappointment. The writing just...has not improved to match the improvement in production values. The handwaving away of not just book lore but established show lore in order to get to whatever predetermined outcome the writers want to get to is maddening. The fakeout deaths, the power inconsistencies, the introduction of invented side plots in order to flesh out secondary characters at the expense of actually fleshing out the main characters, the way a number of characters in the show just don't FEEL like the same characters from the books, the list goes on. This isn't to say that they haven't done some things extremely well, just that so many of them don't feel earned. I blame the writers. Maybe Season 3 will bring an improvement in the storytelling and a lessening of the tired tropes that tv writers use over and over because it's just what tv writers do and are used to. I just don't know if I'm willing to go on that ride with them. Watching a show based on a book series that I love only to leave each viewing disappointed and kind of upset, isn't healthy. And the online discourse within the fandom over this show is kinda harmful. TLDR; The show has disappointed me more than it has entertained me and this episode in particular was rushed, kinda cheesy, and in the end kind of a letdown.
Watch an episode or two with a non-book reader. It’s the next best thing to experiencing it for the first time. Except don’t tell them anything. Then you’ll ruin it. 😂
"I wish I could separate my bookreader self from my show watching self the way you are able to do." You need to practice this skill - I recommend reading the A Song of Ice and Fire series and watching Game of Thrones. If that experience doesn't teach you to separate the two, nothing will :)
@@clasdauskas there is no comparing the quality of story adaptation, writing, production or casting of GoT vs. WoT. Weiss & Benioff absolutely nailed the first several seasons of GoT and only struggled once they ran out of source material, which was GRRM not keeping his end of the deal. They cut very little out of such a complex series. Judkins and crew have not nailed a single thing in adapting WoT. They have also made terrible and unnecessary changes in order to push their anti-male agenda. It sucks.
Honestly, I think you are WAY too generous to the showrunners. "this show needs more time" Does it though? How much time in the last 16 hours of runtime has been wasted? How many sub plots have went nowhere? How many things have been rehashed multiple times? Jordan does that in the books, for sure. But first, I think even the biggest book fans will acknowledge that he loved to recap. Second, cycles and repetition are HEAVY themes in the books, and so they are more appropriate. Third... they get fucking LOADS of criticism. Consider: the fandom refers to a HUGE section of the books as "the slump." The the ORIGINAL BOOKS get that level of criticism... I honestly don't see why a hundred million dollar+ show should get a free pass. The writers and producers CHOSE to do basically nothing for most of 2 seasons. They weren't even REALLY setting the scene. What world building has been done, really? If you're being VERY honest? And this is the SECOND season finale where the Dragon has played second fiddle to Egwene. And Egwene does not NEED more than she gets in the books. Her book arch is fucking crazy and awesome... No amount of "extra time" is going to change the stone cold FACT that the show runners are just NOT TELLING the story that Jordan wrote. It's not an adaptation. It's barely even a homage. I don't like people poo pooing the show for no reason, or denying when it DOES manage to entertain or convey some good narrative... but there comes a point where the ABSOLUTE desperation to give some arsehole show runner with an inflated ego the benefit of the doubt it just... kinda gross. This is the kind of thing that requires an intervention. It shouldn't be enabled by rendering the people making decisions blameless for their own decisions. Circumstances CAN be used to fuel exciting decisions and lead to creative wonders. And they will ALWAYS drive an audience to be forgiving. But to take that leeway and just continue with the vanity project, rather than an earnest attempt at a respectful adaptation... I can't accept it. I genuinely think people mistake credible performance (of which there are plenty, the cast by and large does a good job) for an acceptable standard of writing. "good moments" do NOT excuse so many poor decisions. "But muh Marvel movies are fun" is not an argument. That is some pretty condescending attitude imo. Particularly given the quality of the source material (even the BIGGEST comics fans will admit that a LOT of the source material is ridiculous) And before everyone jumps on me for JUST being bitter or hating... I literally recommended the show to my mum *yesterday* I couldn't in good conscience do that for S1, and S2 HAS been an improvement. But that is damning with faint praise. She doesn't read for pleasure, so it will be her only way to experience one of my favourite series. I legit want to know what she thinks and hope she likes it. But I REFUSE to pull punches in criticism and WILL die on the hill that people should stop treating a billion dollar company and a multimillionaire showrunner like a child that made you a drawing.
I enjoyed this episode, it wasn’t my favourite (5 and 6 were my favourite) but it was enjoyable. I’ve come to the conclusion that I just don’t think Rafe is as talented a writer as say, Rammy Park who did ep 6 and a few of the others. For the discerning viewer, I think it makes a big difference to the quality of the episode, regardless of visuals. I thought the stuff with Mat was great, seriously I love Donal Finn as Mat I think he’s even Mattier than book-Mat. But I don’t think the horn stuff was built up enough leading up to this event for it to pack as much punch as it could’ve. I cannot fathom why they bothered to have Elayne and Nynaeve achieve 90% of their rescue mission only to waste the best parts on an arrow in Elayne’s leg whilst Nynaeve looked constipated- this genuinely made me tear my hair out and I’m a big fan of the show. Egwene being able to collar Renna made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever based on the rules established in episode 6. I actually enjoyed her stand against Ishy but I felt extremely disappointed with the way they had Rand finish him off. It didn’t feel earned at all. I enjoyed the reunion with Lan and Moiraine, I couldn’t stand the drama created between them but their characters felt truer in this episode, especially Lan. Didn’t mind Moiraine nuking the ships and I think they posed enough of a threat to be justified under the 3 oaths. I also enjoyed the fire dragon at the end, thought it was the right side of cheesy just about. General stuff- Maseema and the Aiel fighting was very good, otherwise the visuals on the combat need to level-up. The Ways look much better now, and Lanfear ejecting them through a waygate was very good. I think Mat and Moghedian were my absolute favourite moments in the episode. Ahh I kinda just want Rafe to stick to showrunners duties and coordinating everything and let the better writers take the helm. If the entire season was episode 5+6 writing standards (also the directing in these episodes was very strong) it would be absolutely sensational. As it is, it’s still very good and if season 3 can improve by this much again then I’m hoping the show will have the legs to go the full distance.
As much as I find the idea of someone starring in a mediocre reality TV show becoming a showrunner absolutely ludicrous, I think more than Rafe, it's to do with Sanaa Hamri. She had an interview where she gave her assessment of Mat as a character, and it was ABSOLUTE bullshit. Episodes 5 and 6 were directed by Maja Vrvilo and they were MILES better than episodes 7 and 8 in my opinion (Sana directed those). I agree though, I have a lot of hope for the show; I just think they need to minimize Sana's role.
@@rohinsengupta604yeah I noticed that 5 and 6 correlated with Maja Vrvilo directing. Good shout on Saana Hamri, I’ve noticed the same in interviews although I can’t recall her specific take on Mat. Maybe she could be motivation coordinator instead? It was difficult watching ep 7+8 after 5+6 !
@@Ceej474 right? I think Maja did a really good job with 5&6 tbh, I really hope they give her more episodes to direct next season onwards. Sanaa's take on Mat was basically "he's insecure about himself and has a lot of darkness inside him" which is nuts. Mat's main character flaw is him trying to shirk off responsibility, not...whatever this is. And finally someone agrees that 7&8 were a major stepdown from 5&6! I didn't understand why people liked 7 so much; they butchered Siuan's character, not to mention that Rand despite being inexperienced should have been able to break out of the shield on him due to his raw power.
You took the words right out of my mouth! I've been okay with almost all of the changes they've made, but this episodes changes bothered me a bit more than usual. Literally, I said almost exactly the same things that you did to my husband after watching last night. The only additional complaint I had was I hated everything about the horn and the scenes with it. IMO, it sounded like a dead frog. The books say "it was a clear note, golden as the horn was golden." It was described as a sound "so sweet he wanted to laugh, so mournful he wanted to cry." I was envisioning a heavily audio engineered, hauntingly beautiful sound. Almost like a loon calling on a misty lake. Also, the image of it on the cover of The Great Hunt is how I was picturing it... not that lumpy ugly thing. The mist was lacking and we barely got Brigitte (maybe she hasn't been permanently cast?) Anyway... in the grand scheme of things, these are nitpicky complaints that don't really matter to the story. But they annoyed me. I'm still looking forward to season 3.
@@gumshoe2273 If they cut Birgitte Silverbow, I'll think I'll be disappointed. It'll feel like the Horn of Valere was just a badly written plot device (which it is already going to border on anyway, given how much they've already cut for time). Her storyline feels pretty important to Elayne's to me. They should have time to bring in at least part of her story arc - even if its just to help against Moghedien and she doesn't end up as a warder (honestly, I think I'd be ok with that if they have to cut it for time or change it somehow), but all that could be several seasons away (hence, not cast yet). We'll see!
I imagine someone has said this…but Rand handling Turak and his army was epic and hilarious and delicious IMO. CANNOT agree more that we need more time. I would’ve LOVED to see them actually steal the horn. Them already having it was jarring lol
It would have made sense if he had been training all season, but he's been doing the opposite of that. Or they could have had Lews leaking in with the horn blown which would have been something to work with in the future but they didn't do that either. The boy who doesn't know how to do anything suddenly channels in ways he didn't earn. I found it one of the most disappointing scenes of the finale. Which, to be clear, I quite enjoyed in other ways.
That wouldn't have been earned because, he didn't spend time with Lan learning and practicing over and over again like in the books. His kill of Ishamael in the show was pretty anti-climactic compared to what happened in TGH.
Rand is intentionally being made weak. Robert Jordan is clear. Rand Al Thor IS the hero. HE alone faces the actual Dark One at Shayol Ghul. These producers WILL NOT let that happen.
I was so upset over season 1 that my expectations were super low for s2, and I can watch some campy shit (saw legend of the seeker in its entirety). like a lot of commenters, and I believe most casual fans, my biggest gripe is with Rand being a weak pushover, and not being given a SINGLE moment to shine across 2 seasons of television. Main character of the books, the "chosen one" - mentioned multiple times, but never shown on the screen. it's a travesty tbh
I agree, I get they’re like “oh yeah rand doesn’t know how to channel it doesn’t make sense yet.” But it doesn’t make sense in the books either, but it does once you understand just how powerful he is, and from LTT taking over from time to time.
I think Rand's first big moment is going to be against Bel'al in S3. Give him a weaker Forsaken (who is also a blademaster) to absolutely go ham on in a sword and One Power fight. It could also show how far beyond the Aes Sedai even the weakest Forsaken is, and then have him get destroyed by Rand.
The heroes never said Mat is one of them, just that they fought on his side many times. there can be a "Mat the hornsounder" in every age without him being tied to it like the heroes
Just checked out the season 2 finale of Wheel of Time, and it's got a 4.85/5 rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Kudos to the creators for crafting a show that appeals to both newcomers like me and those who've read the books. I guess some folks just prefer a more straightforward approach to storytelling, but hey, to each their own! 😉
As a book reader I’m upset by some of the changes (though they may simply saving certain plot lines and events for later) but I so enjoyed this season a lot. I’m glad non book readers are enjoying this take on the story as well.
This is absolutely the case. It is delusional to pretend that Rand will magically get his moments in the next Season. The boys were throwaway characters this season and they will continue to remain so under the current direction.
Exactly. This was supposed to be Rand vs Ishamael showdown but somehow they managed to make Egwene the star again lol. The way this show is going I wont be surprised if it is Egwene or Nynaeve who defeats the dark one lol.
@@Saa_la Apparently logic doesnt apply to the girls. One can heal the dead and can hold off a foresaken after being brutally hurt by boulders and being thrown off against a wall. Rand just gets shielded for no reason and apparently needs a woman everytime to help him, while Egwene can do everything on her own. It seems like they saw a great opportunity to push their agendas lol. Even dialogues are made to sound like some agenda shit. "I came to save you but it seems like you didnt need it." Sounds like a feminist wrote this dialogue to reinforce that women dont need anyone to help them while the main lead is being carried around by women lol.
FYI, the Whitecloak children were carrying heavy incense sconces, not candles. They can produce some pretty thick smoke, but not enough for an acre or two, as shown in the episode. It reminded me of Altar Boys from the Roman Catholic religion, although in the church the priest is the one who normally wields the incense, but only for some specific masses.
You could explain away the heavy incense sconces as being ter-angreal. One does not need to channel to use some ter-angreal. Such a thing would be additive and consistent with the lore of the Wheel of Time. I have no issues with that.
@@gilian2587 I feel like using ter'angreal is something White Cloaks would not do, but then again, they were always failing to live up to their own lofty virtue. Also, it could be they just don't understand what they are. But I agree. It's not a big deal. It's an acceptable trade off for an epic moment on screen.
I don’t understand the decision to have Rand defeat Ishamael by stabbing him with a sword. I know we haven’t seen any training in the one power for Rand, so maybe wouldn’t make sense to have him defeat him that way, but the sword stab seemed too easy.
I would myself a casual book reader since I have only read through the series once and I am in the early process of a re-read. That being said, I loved this episode and I loved this season. I think that is because I have fully embraced the "another turning of the wheel" concept. The core of the characters is what has (generally speaking) been consistent and it has been fun to watch. Also, I loved that Uno is a Hero of the Horn. I think the fans deserved this since he was killed off so early. We will see if he comes back in the series or not, thought. I am thinking that he is done for the series and this was his magnum opus.
I loved the finale. I would have liked a 2 episode finale, but we only had so much time. I liked the adaptations from the books. There were many good moments. Can’t wait until Season 3.
I think the redemption arc for Matt (even though I don't think they earned it with the storyline, as a book fan I was invested) was very emotionally satisfying... You could tell when he blew the horn, came to the realization that he wasn't a worthless nothing like his mother said, the relief he felt was palpable, and his countenance changed, even in his eyes, it was very moving, but I'm not sure a TV series person would get all that just because they weren't prepared for it.
I found it to be incredibly cheesy and literally rolled my eyes when Mat said, “I remember!” He spent most of two seasons wondering if he was really as bad as others said he was. Then he blew the horn and suddenly remembered he was a hero of the horn and a good person. Wtf? Horrible writing.
I have tried and tried, but as someone who loves the books, I can't bring myself to like this show. I understand cutting things for time. I understand combining characters for budget reasons. I understand the transition from book to TV means you don't get to hear the inner dialog and motivations. that's why books are superior to motion pictures for storytelling. What I just can't forgive is major changes to character's motivations, strengths and flaws. They have changed the motivation and life walk of every character so much they are not likable. When I find myself liking Liandrin the most of the TV characters, there is a problem. I care more about what happened to her than any of the Emmond's Field people. It's a shame they couldn't have left the characters alone and just changed the story to fit in the time they had. As a book reader, I give this episode a 2/10. If I sit that aside and just look at it as a stand alone series, it's a 4/10 at most.
I agree. Even without comparing it to the books, the TV show writing is sub par. It’s such a shame because the actors are very talented and could do an amazing job if they had a better script to work with. The fantastic Egwene damane episode shows that they’re capable of so much better.
I would give it a 6/6.5. My biggest problem is that there is no power equivalency in the one power. Season 1: a bunch of Aes Sedai can’t hold off an attack by like 50 upjumped followers of Logain. Season 2: Moraine sinks the entire fleet from a mile. Also, a novice who has spent maybe weeks or at most multiple months at the White Tower healing a wound from *that* dagger? It’s not so much that there are changes as *what* they decided to change for little discernible reason. All that being said, way better than season 1 and I’m super happy they just memory holed that Loial and all the Shinarans died in season 1.
You don't mention Egwene, who's a novice at this point, being able to hold off a forsaken, with powers and experience so out of this time that they can throw away the Amyrlin seat or Moiraine with a flick of their hands. Huh? Rand's epic endings have been stolen from him for two consecutive seasons. It's unclear why should we root for him? He hasn't really done anything up to this point. He's also free trading with the forsakens; at this point of time he should be rejecting them wholesale
`From a book-reader perspective, I missed a few things: * Mat's line about "does it say we can't use it *before* the Last Battle?" (paraphrased) * Mat using the dagger for the first time when facing Turak's guards (+5 Dagger of Oh, Hell No!) * Rand actually earning the Blademaster title. (But the show didn't really let him earn it through training wit Lan, so it's better that they gave him an Indiana Jones moment instead.) * Ingtar's Darkfriend reveal and absolution by Rand. (But again, the show didn't really let him earn redemption, so best to drop the plot arc entirely, I suppose.) From a plot beat perspective, I liked Egwene's arc. From a logic perspective, it made no sense. Two women collaring each other should probably have caused some kind of feedback loop that burned them both out or killed them. I understand they were going for a "battle of wills," but it just felt weird. Also, given how important training is (Siuan could shield Rand mostly due to superior training), Egwene should not have been able to go toe-to-toe with Ishamael, even purely on defense. She's only the second-most powerful Aes Sedai of the last thousand years. That being said, I still *enjoyed* the execution.
I keep hearing you say that non book readers will like the show but the non readers I know have stopped watching around ep 3 because the show does such a bad job of explaining the magic and who all of the different factions are that they have no idea what's going on.
Every episode in this season, I loved so much more watching it the second time around! Although there were many inconsistencies and unbelievable moments as you said, I was still blown away and thoroughly enjoyed this finale! 😁
I love that Uno is a hero of the horn! This is one death I’m so glad wasn’t final. Seeing him standing there with the other heroes was one of the best moments in the episode. 10/10 for me. I don’t care about characters having final deaths, though. I’m a show watcher who read the series after watching S1. I’m on my first reread.
I was happy Uno was a hero of the horn! First, it adds an already-recognisable character to the roster of summoned heroes, which is narratively useful. Second, from a book point of view, there is literally no such thing as a final death, and Uno did die, as much as it's possible for anyone to die in Randland! It's not ideal that all deaths are ontologically fakeout deaths... But he is "actually dead" and being summoned by the horn doesn't really spoil that IMO (as opposed to Nynaeve's and Loial's fakeout deaths which do devalue death in the show).
Right? I was so pissed when he bit it! He made it all the way through the last battle, damnit! But then I saw him among the heroes, and I literally squeeled! Not ashamed to admit it!
I honestly disliked it. I love Uno as a character, but having him be a hero of the horn felt like cheesy fan service and really cheapened the whole concept.
This was probably my favorite episode so far, and it had some beautiful shots in it as well. I actually cried a little because I was so happy when Mat had his moment and spoke in the old tongue. As a huge fan of the books getting to see moments like that made me so happy and the acting was great all around. I think they used their budget really well, especially for this episode, and ended the season with a bang.
I'm looking at it as a mirror world which allows me to take off my book hat. So I've really enjoyed jt. And my wife has enjoyed it and she finally talks to me about my favorite book series
Is it just me or does it seem like the writers just can't figure out how to spread charater moments and always seem to make one character their favorite. Season 1 it was Nynaeve, season 2 seems like it was Eqwene. At least Mat got somewhat of a moment. But it just seems like Rand is not a character the writers like. He literally gets to walk 10 feet and stab a seemingly defenseless guy with his sword. I guess he did get his Indiana Jones moment with the High Lord towards the beginning...
They aren’t clearly dark friends, they are not threatening her or her warder or another Sister. So she can’t kill them. Lan even says they may be innocent people.
This was a pretty good episode. Overall, i was very very happy with this season. The only problem seems to be hoe the showrunner seems to view Rand. From a purely tv story position, there is a huge problem. We have been constantly told how amazing the dragon is. How necessary. He is the dragon reborn. Lews therin. The water that turns the wheel. The most powerful channeler. The key to the dark ones vistory. His identity was the entire McGuffin of the first season (a bad choice that required keeping characterization of the Edmonds fielders to a minimum.) Told. And told. And told and told and told and told and told. Told over and over again. And at every point in this episode (indeed, this entire series), aside from a brief (a absolutely brilliant) homage to Indiana Jones, the dragon reborn is once again displayed as a limp impotent disappointment. Apologies for my phallic imagery. If you are a fan of Brooklyn 9 9, he is the Vulture, swooping in after %95 of the case had been solved. He stands on the tower people cheering....when it was everyone else who actually did all the heavy lifting. He does nothing until everyone else has done everything. And then he takes his 5% and calls it a day, bringing the glory home. Pathetic. I want it clear. Misogyny is stupid and wrong. Completely. This series is replete with competent female characters who have agency, who are role models, who are bad ass and who EVERYONE- male or female- should aspire to emulate. But story telling is not a zero sum game. Telling a story of powerful women does not require that powerful men's stories cannot be a part of it or that male characters must be weakened or feminized in the patriarchal sense- to exist solely as motivations or without any agency apart from their female counterparts. But after 2 seasons, there seems to be a pattern that has become clear. The role of the dragon is being toned down to an almost "also ran" position. Female characters are shown time and again, powerful and doing the impossible, often in contradiction to established rules of the show itself. Egwene can somehow take on Ishamael for a time...really? In the universe they have written, this is impossible. But for some reason, its not enough that Egwene frees herself (which was very cleverly done and showed her strength of will against Renna). No, we need to see that she is such a boss that she can take on a Chosen and hold out for a good while....all the while rand is on his knees....for a 2nd time this season. Again and again we see the strength of egwene and nynaeve....but so far NONE of the male characters are given the same respect or their own moments. They are stripped of agency. Lan literally has no story without Moiraine, no role. His arch this season was to realize that her work was the most important theme and that if that means being just her servant, that is OK. That is his role as a lesser. Even though she disabuses him of the "lesser" part, he nonetheless has no ability to find a purpose without moiraine. He is not the Lan we love. In an adaptation, all I want is the characters we love to remain consistent. But they arent. This is not pathetic men's rights concerns. This is HONEST critique. The writers seem to be going out of their way to reposition the focus of the story away from the dragon in particular, and the other men in general- Mat didnt earn his hero moment. He was magically given it. Perrin hulked out. There was no development. Not really more complicated than that.- so that its about the group as a whole...and nynaeve, moiraine and egwene in particular. Again, this is not a zero sum game. There is room for greatness for all. I want people to aspire to be as badass as Far Dareis Mai or as strong as the Wise Ones (notice I specifically exclude the White Tower. They espouse their own form of toxic culture that should be avoided. ) Moiraine and Lan were amazing, finally working as a team. It was what the theme of the series was. But every critism of this show seems to avoid that very large elephant in the room. I keep waiting for a content creator willing to state the obvious problem. It's show, not tell. If the fucking dragon reborn is a big deal, you better show it. And if the other male characters matter, then given then actual chatacter arcs. And enough with alanna and her warders. You have 8 eps per season and 8 seasons if you are lucky. Dont waste my time on them. Yes, Amazon is at fault for 8 eps instead of 10. But wasting that precious time on pointless drama (alanna Lan moiraine stuff) is their decision. They don't get to hide behind the claim it is Amazon's fault Make us care about the main chatacters, not waste time with people who dont matter to the story. (And alanna doesn't matter. She ends up being nearly pointless and mostly a tool. She could have been cut out easily without any impact.) At this point, I'd be interested to know what non book readers thing of the dragon as a hero, savior and concept. Unprompted or by leading questions, what is their impression about whether the dragon actually matters? What are their predictions for the role of the dragon in the series as it progresses? Questions like that could be illuminating and indicate whether this impression is actually real or is merely perceived from book fans. Great work though. I appreciate your honesty and integrity. Keep it up!
This 100%. I am not a mens right activist at all, but they curbed the arcs of all male characters to give the female characters bigger arcs (in the case of egwene and nyneave i dont mind, their arcs warant their screentime). But random female characters like liandrin and alana do not warrant the time and attention given to them AT ALL, (even if liandrin is incredibly well portrayed). The next couple of episodes will hopefully catch the dudes up with the ladies. As for a non-book reader watching Rand: my girlfriend thought him the most boring character that barely does anything interesting. At least some more character was shown this season, but not enough to actually warant screentime for her. That is honestly a travesty. This season was an amazing step up but it has a lot of ground to cover before it finally becomes up to my personal standard.
Last night in the World of Dreams, Rafe revealed a spin off series of an Oceans 11 type caper in which our fab five along with their friends use their diverse powers to set free all collared aes sedai under the seanchen control. It totally will happen. My dreams come true.
The best part was Matt's "Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" shout. Loved this. Did not love all of the suspension of disbelief moments. Fight scenes were to choreographed and didn't sell.
I think Nynaeve’s block works differently in the show. So I think we need to give them a little time to explain it. I completely agree about Rand needing some really big moments!
Wow! What a finale! And how much they packed in. I’m quite impressed. They’ve set up future seasons so perfectly. Very importantly they got most things back on track from the Covid and Barney leaving issues from the end of season 1.
This episode wasn't perfect but I REALLY enjoyed it, especially the Mat scenes. Uno as Gaidal Cain is perfect IMO and has become cannon in my head since I saw him as a hero of the horn. The one thing that threw me off was Moirane seemingly breaking one of the oaths and I had to go and read the 3 oaths to make sure: "Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense...". Bit of a stretch but I could see Moiraine thinking that the Seanchan shielding Rand could be considered Darkfriends since they're doing the Forsaken's bidding...
I would think defending your ward (no, not warder, ward in the sense of someone who is being cared for) from an attack would not break the third oath. Also, if she saw Rand was shielded and someone else was channeling a shield against another channeling on the tower, that there is an Aes Sedai up there who needs aid (even through Egwene is still a novice). Also, she attacked objects (the ships) and not people. It tracks with how she killed the ferryman in Tarren Ferry in S1.
@@MasterRahl221 This is actually how I took it. Moiraine was going to fire bomb the ship to break the weave. She was not targeting the people. Of course we did see Lan point out the possibility that innocent people could be on the ship.
So will Padan Fain ever get the dagger back from Mat? He should be even more addicted to it than Mat, but when he sees it on the end of a stick he loses his sh*t and runs off screaming for the guards?
Uno is Gaidal Cain. Rafe confirmed it in a Collider interview this morning. Him coming back was an excellent way to show not tell how the horn works. None of the heroes we know mean anything to non book readers. Seeing someone they know is an excellent way to explain the horn. I quite enjoyed it as I was pretty devistated by Uno's death. As far as Moiraine and the oaths, all she has to do is believe her life is in danger and she can use the power as a weapon. It's the Seanchan, her life is definitely in danger.
What your saying about Moiraine is complete nonsense. What she did is an obvious violation of the three oaths. She could have used the one power against he soldiers attacking her on the beach, but not sinking an entire fleet of ships full of people she only suspected of doing nefarious things. Its absolute bullshit to say its not a violation of the three oaths. Otherwise whats the point of the oaths? If all an Aes Sedai has to do is suspect someone is doing something they don't like then they can use the one power to kill, there is literally nothing stopping any Aes Sedai from using the one power to kill anyone at anytime.
@@Elluwrath:) Ah well that makes a lot more sense. Though I think even Florida would raise an eyebrow if you killed your attacker and everyone in every house around yours just to make sure you're safe.
Wheel of time TV Show is starting to become one of my favorites. I can not wait to see where they go in Season 3. Big fan off the Aiel spear maidens. They are almost a cheat mode for the good guys :D Perrin got his Axe and shield and I enjoyed how Mat atlast started to show some of his abilities with that spear of his. Also we are now seeing Rand with the wicked wound that never will heal. I did enjoy the ending with the knowledge that 5 more forsaken are on the lose. and Lanfear have meet her match.
Perhaps controversially, I’m happy Nynaeve wasn’t a saviour this episode. She has received so much focus and I find her repeated deus ex machina explosions of power dull. Great to see focus on the others. I suspect Nyn will grow next season through rivalry with Moghidien.
Nae'blis if it helps: (1) Having Uno be a hero connects for show-only fans that the Heroes of the Horn are dead people / spirits, and, (2) Moiraine was able to attack the ships and not break the Three Oaths because if the damane killed Rand than they would be killing the world and essentially killing her and Lan along with it.
My book reader self will never be able to be let go. Not while they still call it Wheel of Time. Rafe's ego here is almost unfathomable. And the truth is 8 episodes were plenty, if you don't throw in all the extraneous changes Rafe's ego decided were needed.
@billnolte8644 That's not what you're doing. You're personally insulting a person you don't know becuase they made choices you dont like. Thats it. Nothing more. The rest is just self aggrandizing to make your complaint sound important. It's not.
Everyone else gets their moment except my fucking boy Rand yet again. Why they trying so hard to make it seem like he isnt our main character?! Everyone is so overpowered without it being earned and then he shits out piddly wee weaves. Underwhelming end to Ishy. Everything else in this ep was cool and I can mostly get on board with the changes and interpretation. I just cannot forgive this Rand eraser. Also, I wish ingtar got a wee moment to say his bit about being a dark friend but alas.
I'm just impressed at how well Matt tied that dagger on the staff 😂
Yeah
He would need that insane luck to actually do that
There's no way that setup would survive one good stab
6:45.... I dunno...
.. does Matt throwing a bedpost ashanderei with a dagger duct taped at the top thru ishamaels back really count as matt stabbing rand with the shadar logoth dagger thus fulfilling mins vision?
Either mins visions are crappier than they were in the books or im still waiting for Matt to stab rand with the dagger.
Time to toss the, er, bedpost.
A commenter on Road to Tar Valon's episode review dubbed him "Mat-gyver". 🙌
The lack of any sword play with Turak, after he directly challenged his right to the Heron marked blade was TRASH!
Rand didn't really get that much training on the show.
Wasn't expecting Matt's scene to get me like it did...when all hope was lost..the legends appear behind him. Epic.
He was always a legend , he just always was the lost.
I think that having Elayne at least partially heal Rand is essential to their arc. You have to remember that they scrapped the Rand Caemlyn plot where the seeds of Rand and Elayne are sown. Now that this is the first meeting for the two with Rand being barely conscious and seeing this angel esc healer above is quite moving and I think much needed to set up chemistry between the two as they will always have that connection from when he was healed.
Yep, I like how it was a clumsy healing job also. Like it shows just enough that Elayne is powerful, but not so much that she comes across as a Mary Sue, same when Egwene's air shield starts to falter as Ishamael is toying with her.
I think that they wanted a reason for the partial healing of the wound that non book readers would get. Elaine just isn't super good at healing, but with Nyneave unable, Elayne was better than nothing. After the over the top healing of all of the people at once last season, no one would buy that Nyneave was going to do less than perfectly heal Rand's booboo.
Yeah, they have to have SOME moment. It felt like they literally said "what is the fastest way we can set this up". Did you notice how Aviendha was there like 5 seconds later fawning over him from a mile away "Look, It's the Caracarn!"
Which is a pity, I really loved that throneroom scene where Elaida reveals the Heron.
this makes sense! i didnt think of it this way.
Am I the only one that's extremely pissed off that they cut Rand's one on one fight with High Lord Turok?
I struggled most with 1) they pull an arrow shaft out of Elayne's leg and just... walk away, and 2) Rand just kinda nonchalantly walks up to ishamael (through Egwene's shield) and puts the sword in him - just felt very simple.
This exactly! If they had to scrap Rand and Turak sword fighting, at least they could’ve had a decent fight scene with Ishy! I didn’t need to see Lan fight off 15 Seanchan. They could’ve used that time for Rand to fight.
There's an incredibly quick exchange of Ishy throwing a fireball and Rand blocking it oeth the one power just before he casually strikes.
Rand's fights were flatter than the Nullarbor plain. The one effective thing he did made no sense in the context of the show without some sort of inner turmoil from Lews leaking out which again still wouldn't have made sense in the show since they've pruned him back to nothing more than a nub of his character.
@Reoh0z aye, you're referring to him killing ten people in one go. Where did he pulled that out from? It was no desperation move, he looked damn sure when he stepped up.
I don't get this stupid trope of pulling out an arrow. Every medical professional knows to just let an object in there until a surgeon (in this case Aes Sedai) comes, otherwise you will have bad internal bleeding. And Elayne just walking around after that... why, just why? They should have cut that scene
My biggest beef with the show so far is that Rand basically does nothing. They make him out to be completely incompetent. Him killing forsaken at the end of book one was scrapped in the show. Him having an epic battle with Ishamael at Toman Head was also scrapped. Instead they has Egwene inexplicably hold him off until Rand was again saved by his friends (seems to be a theme in the show), then he just strolls up and shoved a sward through the chest of Ishamael with zero resistance? No awesome display of the One Power by the Dragon reborn for all to see as his defeats Ishamael in the sky. Instead Moraine creates a cartoonish looking dragon so everyone knows who he is. Because, again, the show makes Rand completely incompetent. The strongest, most powerful person in the entire world, does absolutely nothing in the show.
Then having Mat accidentally stab Rand with the tainted dagger. Having the dragon reborn nearly killed on accident by his best friend. Why? Just why? Mat is arguably the most competent character in the entire book series and they turned him into a drugged out buffoon who nearly ended the world right then and there.
Because it's loosely based on the books, I dont' think there's ONE studio that's competent and respectful enough about the lore to do a good book to tv adaptation. Let's see if it completely goes stupid in season 3 :)
Spot on. I'm trying not to ruin my wife enjoying the show by constantly spewing venom but I absolutely despise nearly every decision Judkins has made.
He is an agenda pushing hack who refuses to allow any competent male characters in HIS show. And make no mistake that he is making this show for himself only. He has consistently given two middle fingers to the huge and passionate WoT fan community. He is totally abusing the honor that Harriet bestowed on him and betraying the trust she put in him to make a worthy adaptation.
Harriet should have insisted that she or Brando Sando have final approval of any major changes to plot or characters.
I'm not a book reader but I feel, it's coming, even though we've not gotten it yet, I mean, he's the most powerful channeler in the entire lore, even if they wanted to block him off it's inevitable
I totally agree. The whole thing is ridiculous.
@@alextaras7176 It will, rest assured of it. They will divert so far from the books as to be unrecognisable. I for one will no longer watch this crap, my time is too precious for that.
Where I agree the Nyn shoulda been the one to heal Rand, I think it was a nice call back to the first time Rand and elayne met with her tending to his wounds.
Yeah... he's still her baby bird. That saved it for me. It's kind of a wink wink easter egg to acknowledge to book readers that we skipped the entire Caemlyn arc in S1.
Yeah but who tended to Elayne's wound ? Nynaeve didn't even put a compression bandage on it. It's a wonder Elayne didn't keel over from blood loss on the way to the top of the tower.
@@LooseTheremin yes this was another plot hole. Also… push the arrow through, fletching and all? Nyneave would know better!
This episode (and this season generally) was such a mixed bag. There are things I absolutely love: This portrayal of Moghedien is very interesting and creepy (she almost seems like she could be a villain in "Dexter', real serial killer vibes), the scene of Ishamael being enraptured by "nothing at all" actually felt earned. They layed the ground work for it well this season. As usual the performers are doing such a good job with the material and the performances they give continue to keep my interest for the show alive. The things I didn't love can basically be boiled down to two things: plot contrivance, and sacrificing plot consistency and world building for the sake of making a dramatic scene. I find it so frustrating. The three oaths are apparently not worth the paper they are written on. Not just in this episode but previous ones. They are ignored when convenient to make a cool dramatic scene. Matt just suddenly remembers his past lives because he needs to remember them because it's part of his character progression but they can't figure out how to do that so they just tack it on as an effect of the horn. It feels lazy and cheap and unearned. I didn't get any stakes in the confrontation with Ishamael because he didn't feel like a threat. He doesn't just shield Egwene form the power because it's much cooler for the scene if blasts ineffectually at her shield (which he should be able to batter his way through anyway but never mind). Then he just stands there and lets Rand kill him. Like "Oh well plot says I need to die now". Time will tell if they can fix the problems with the writing - I am holding out hope for that. Because there is a lot I really like about this series. I am on the whole enjoying the show, even if the writing can sometimes drive me up the wall. I think you are absolutely right about the seasons need to be ten episodes at least. They are trying to cram too much into a shorter season and it just feels like they are really struggling to make it work.
I believe the whole deal with Nynaeve is that she is not just terrified of the one power but she is scared that every time she uses it something bad happens to the people she cares about. She is almost broken in a way that makes sense based off what has happened to her this season
Ok I was trying to figure out why the recap flashed back to Ryma, but maybe this is why- because the last time she found a way past her block, something absolutely terrible happened. Helping to prime us for why she might find it impossible to break through this time. It was hard for me because I did expect book Nynaeve who can get herself angry and channel when she needs to, especially to heal.
@@abmilhans which would of been better and actually make sense. Not surrendering because of fear is perfect. Being too angry to be afraid so she can channel just makes sense.
Nynaeve's block is not playing well to me, especially after all of the hype about her strength. And the show seems to play fast and loose with relative power. Why didn't Lanfear sidestep Mogedien's trap? Until then she was unstoppable. And why did Ishy die when Lanfear appeared to be immortal?
@@danhenley9495 About Ishy dying probably something about special Dragon stuff. Perhaps him heating up the sword is kind of a Balefire-adjacent wave?
@@danhenley9495 Lanfear was “killed” by a regular blade with no power behind it. I think Nynaeve is the new Mat. We have to wait for her first arc to finish and they are setting Mogi up to have more courage and power. Nynaeve and Mogi….Mogi trapped Lanfear. Lanfear is stronger, but maybe overconfident like Nynaeve would have been before this utter humbling. Mogi has joker level crazy vibes now. Love that. Dark Bork.
I don’t understand why they won’t let Rand have his big moments. We saw him draw in a HUGE amount of the One Power with Logain where he tells him, “with that much power you can fight anyone” and then we get nothing. They should’ve had him at least draw in a huge amount of the One Power (maybe using the “sa’angreal” Moiraine gave him) where it made Ishamael scared and then finish him. Or, in the moment, since the horn was blown and Mat remembered his pasts, I thought that maybe Lews Therin would take over in Rands mind to beat Ishy. But no, let’s let Egwene and the whole team get the dub. Aside from the scene with Logain, they haven’t given us anything to make us think Rand is this powerful, messiah character who is to save the world and break it. If anything, they’ve made Lanfear, Egwene, Moiraine, and Nynaeve seem like they have way more raw power. Even Ishy didn’t seem that impressive. For a second I thought they were going to have Egwene beat Ishamael lol.
I liked the episode and can live with changes, but for me they’re missing the mark with the Dragon Reborn’s moments.
You don't know why? At this point in American pop writing... Girl bosses only bud. Men, especially white men, are weak.
It would have been better if Rand had wrecked most of the seanchen and white cloak ships while he was fighting lord fingernails blade to blade.
They didn't build up his blade work at all though. It wouldn't have made sense to pure.shpw watchers.
Agreed. I was also half expecting Lews Theron to seize the One Power and battle Ishamael above the skies of Falme. It seems inconsistent with both the books and the show that Ishamael was so weak compared to Egwene. I rated this episode really low just based on dubious writing decisions, but otherwise Season 2 was a good step forward, IMO.
Notice how Rand has now been saved by Moiraine a bunch of times, by Egwene and LANFEAR.
Rand is a damsel in distress, Egwene is the dragon.
I thought Egwene was bout to beat Ishy too. For a second I was like wait are they bout to pull a twist and make her the Dragon lol
Thank you for all your reviews!!! It's half the fun is watching reviews after the episode!! You and two other channels are my 3 favorites!!
I enjoyed the battle, it was really good.
A shame they didn't know what to do with Elayne and Nynaeve, for they did almost nothing the entire episode.
They nerfed Rand A LOT. He doesn't even feel like a protagonist anymore; the showrunners gave Egwene and Moiraine a lot more to do, wich is a shame.
Also, Rand stabbing Ishmael the way he did must be one of the lamiest scenes I've ever seen on TV.
Mat's arc was awesome thou.
I'm struggling here. What was good about the battle? Bad special effects, plenty of plot holes, deus ex machina, cringe and unmemorable fight scenes and a final boss battle where his most powerful moves were some Spider-Man fire zaps. Then he got stabbed.
I struggle to see what people liked about it.
You wernt paying attention rand takes over the shield and literally just overpowers a forsaken and kills him
@@ziegfeld4131 Well, the Egwene from the books would not have been able to shield Ishamaels blows at all. The show makes her much more powerful than Rand, which is just ridiculous.
How did Egwene place the collar on Renna? That seems to violate what they spent their time highlighting in the best episode of the season, #6.
I agree with the healing, but I am more saddened that Renna wasn't left alive with the collar on...
One thing that was laughably bad though: the gate scene with the incense kids. The two Seanchan guards are like "duhhhh hey, what's going on?" The only thing that could've saved that for me is if they showed the kids approaching, then we get the "duhhhh" stares, then they rewind the kids back to their original position and show them approaching again, then "duhhhhh", then rewind the kids back again....
That scene was 100% Monty Python.
"The Dragon Reborn, the most powerful channeler ever...." Um, when? *sigh
A cavalry charge on a walled city is beyond absurd.
Rand straight up Indiana Jones’d the Seanchan.
For me, the big book change is having Rand's first unHealable wound being caused by the Shadar Logath dagger. That creates a major change that has huge implications down the way in the story. The second wound will have to be changed in order to preserve the dichotomy that leads Rand to learn how to cleanse Saidin, as another slash from the same dagger won't do that.
As to Rand needing a more epic moment, I agree. I think a small change that would have done it and resolved how easy Ishmael went down is add some CGI while Rand is walking up with his sword. Show Ishmael trying to channel something at Rand and Rand overpowering it to push through with the sword.
Agreed with a lot of your thoughts and I especially want to say GIVE US MORE EPISODES. The show need it.
What they really should do is scrap the whole shitshow. It has nothing to do wit RJs story but the name of the characters.
@@andreastimper9848cry us a River, if you think it’s shit then that’s fine but your not everyone, I actually enjoy the show and hope it gets more season to come, your a hater like just don’t watch
Mat creates an escape with a spear and Lanfear push Moiraine through a gateway 🤨
i see what you did there!
I was very disappointed with Rand's battle with Turok and Ishamael. Let's see what it takes to earn a heron mark blade on this side of the ocean. As a book fan, I really wanted an epic showdown.
I agree about Suroth. She is a 13 year old entitled narcissist so it feels like she is a teen show villain.
She wasn't much different in the books.
I thought she was just a very bad actress.
@@anomietoponymie2140 No. I do t think that’s the case. They were going for entitled mean girl. I don’t think it was the best choice.
@@danhenley9495 She had more self control in public in the books. More gravitas.
@@AloisiaSedai However she was just as petty and pouted the same in private like she did in this episode. I do remember her being more scared/respectful of Semirhage in the books compared to how she interacts with Ishamael in the show tho.
“Bigger and better than the battle of the blackwater….” What are you smoking dude
There were a couple of moments I didn't like - Turak no fight among them, but overall, they did stick the landing, in my opinion. When the Andor Six gets together, the emotions are perfectly aligned and I even cried a bit.
Given that we didn't see Rand learning the sword, I think it's fine. He was shielded so many times that I bet he trains with the sword now.
@MasterRahl221 I hope so, but suspect they might cut Rand's blade work from the story.
I thought the encounter with Turok was very Indiana Jones-esque and finally let Rand flex his muscles. It also echoed Liandrin's speech to Nynaeve in S2E1 about not bothering to fight hand-to-hand when the One Power is much more powerful.
@@joeleek9976 maybe but I suppose we'll see
Rand hasn’t earned a sword fight tbh. So on that point I’m glad it didn’t happen. But I wish he had been set up for it better. But oh well it got a laugh out of me
Anyone else think the show Horn of Valere looks like it came off the shelf of a Hobby Lobby?
Episode 8 was short. I need more of Rand showing his power.
I think we'll see that in S3. I'm 95% sure we'll see Bel'al first (I think we'll see Bel'al, Sammael, Rahvin, and Demandred as "the boys," since I don't think Asmodean is needed if Logain is going to teach Rand), and they'll use Bel'al (a blademaster) to show off Rand's swordmanship AND channeling prowess (Bel'al being one of the weaker Forsaken let's the show still demonstrate that even a schlub amongst the Chosen is still far beyond anything this Age thinks is power).
@@Kylora2112forsaken statue with a guitar. Wonder who that could be?
We need a complete restart with a new show runner.
@@Kylora2112 Na, they won't do anything of the kind because obviously, the showrunners can't stand powerful male characters.
I would have said 7/7.5, I see the rushing spots and the flaws. But the little moments like Matt shouting "It's time to toss the dice!". Made me cheer
yeah totally. That's been pretty consistent. So. much. awesome, but kind of jumbled and rushed.
So was I, until I realized that between the dagger/staff thing, him knowing the old tongue, and that line about “remembering”, they’re probably going to cut the snakes and foxes (which legit ought to be criminal).
@@OtherTheDave it's possible, but not sure anyone will let him keep the dagger, and they have to figure a way to do something about his connection to the horn, since the foxes did that
@@Ashwgun I wouldn’t be surprised if they skip the whole “connected to the horn” part, but you might be right about the other. I hadn’t thought of that. Aside from that first guard, it seems to have lost its insta-kill power though, so maybe nobody will notice? You still have a fair point, though.
@@AshwgunDidn't the connection actually get severed in Caemlyn with Rahvin and the tree thing was a misdirect?
I think the show runners have shown they can do a good job with this show if they have more time and more episodes. Now if Amazon knew how much those two extra episodes would do us good….
I hope there's a future "director's cut" with 5-10 minutes of extra material per episode.
Have they? They can’t even handle simple editing continuity….
You're kidding right? The show runners made an ~$80m budget look like a Hallmark channel special. Tell me you're kidding.
I think Amazon bears blame.
But you can't complain about 8 episodes when you spend the equivalent of 2 episodes out of 16 on plot lines that do not have anything to do with the main characters. Not talking about liandrin. That is simply fixing RJs 2 dimensional villain problem by fleshing her out brilliantly and showing motivation.
No, I'm talking the Steppin storyline (as beautiful as it was, it had NO PLACE in the 1st season) and the Alanna/Warders/Lan storyline that a) turned Lan from an actualized character with a past, with motivations and with personality, into a character who cannot exist without Moiraine. If he was female, he would not have passed the Beschedel test. B) played on manufactured tension between Lan and Moiraine and Lan and Alanna/Warders.
Alanna doesn't matter. There are plenty of awesome Aes Sedai to beef up scenes for. Alanna is actually a pretty terrible person and effectively becomes a useless tool. She could be written out of the show and no one would notice, plot wise. Seriously. What role has she played?
To contrast, the Moiraine Aravene scenes were so well done, I still think they should have been there. They do a great job of giving us more characterization for Moiraine. They let us breathe (though they maybe could have given us more world building or info to do double duty.)
Alanna scenes really ended up doing little to nothing. Then suddenly they are with Siuan and then in cairhien.
So no, Amazon doesn't bear the blame for squandering 2/16 episodes AT THIS POINT. Later, perhaps. These stories can be wonderful of done right (Steppin for example.)
But when time is expensive and your main characters still need characterization- esp Rand, Mat, Perrin- it is wasteful to spend it on people/stories that dont matter.
That's on the writers, not Amazon.
@@ianohlander This might be unpopular but I don't think Liandrin needed more than two dimensions. There are so many villains in that universe that not everyone can be fully fleshed out. I'd rather see some depth to more important villains like Padan Fain.
On a side note, up until the last episode of season 2, they did pretty well with Ishamael.
On the suspension of disbelief:
Marvel movies and shows are easy to suspend those thoughts because their world is inherently silly & ridiculous. Wheel of Time is a world of rules (that occasionally can be broken), where things operate in a certain way especially in regards to magic. The writers keep on breaking those rules in favor of spectacle, which is unnecessary given the source material. The power levels for the magic system are all over the place at this point and dont make sense. There was emphasis put on how inexperienced all these kids are in fighting and channeling through S1 & S2. Angreal & linking were all necessary in order to achieve certain levels of channeling. Then we are given the following this episode:
1. Egwene holding off Ishamael by herself with almost no training, and Ishamael content to just stand there. He does not seem threatening at all.
2. Elayne healing a wound from the "insta-kill" dagger with almost no effort... doesnt seem so scary at this point
3. Long distance blocking/stilling... AFTER they emphasized you need to see and be close to the person your blocking (at least at this point in the story :))
4. Moiraine destroying a whole Seanchan fleet
The magic at this point has no rules and is simply used to further the plot. That completely removes me from the story. This could have been written in a much more satisfying way that did not come across as ridiculous: Have Moiraine link with the girls and be the one to hold Ishamael, then combat the fleet. There powers combined in this instance would be much more believable in the world they set up.
On not having enough time:
GoT's more successful seasons ran roughly 540 minutes a season, this season of WoT was ~520 minutes. I believe they had enough time but the way it was written was wasting time and taking away from things that truly mattered for THIS story. Some the scenes added were great television, but they didnt contribute to the story that needs to be told. Some examples in this episode and throughout the season:
1. Moiraine & Lan being teleported far away. I get that Lanfear would most likely betray them, but having them with the others would have cut down on time showing them walking along the beach.
2. Elayne being shot with an arrow, then nothing coming from it. This didnt need to be there and we would have gotten to the same conclusion.
3. The Moiraine/Lan story arc that ultimately did nothing and went nowhere. She can channel again.
4. Liandrins arc. Controversial? Yea, I know, shes a great actress and it was compelling, but we could have used that time to be with our main characters and had even more impactful moments with the people we need development from... not just a side character.
Ultimately S2 was better than S1. The effects, set pieces, cinematography, and story were all better... but not by much. We're going in the right direction, but not quick enough to sustain a show that costs so much to make. S1 was a 5/10 for me, average television with a flashy budget. S2 sits at a 6/10 for me. They fixed the technical aspects of it, but the writing is still the weakest point. I dont need or expect a 1/1 adaptation, but I do expect a coherent world with rules and logical steps in development (according to the world its set in).
Im not at the point where I CANNOT WAIT to tell people about this show and thats a problem.
Honestly my favorite parts were all with matt they really did him justice as he is my favorite character in the books. Loved when he screamed his war cry in the old tongue! Its time to toss the dice!
It was redemption for the character. I can accept how they've done it.
I was looking forward to hearing your thoughts on how Moiraine handled the Seanchan ships! Can we get a video about that in the future? I know you think a lot about hard magic systems, and internal consistency, and I'm still struggling to reconcile Mo's actions with the Oaths!
I thought the same thing: that Uno was really Gaidal Cain. I was nearly cheering when he came back! Loved the episode-and I am a book reader. Mat and Egwene were the MVPs, IMHO. The only part I didn't like was that they gave Nynaeve nothing to do except wring her hands.
I thought Uno coming back as a spirit for a hot second was gloriously cheesy. Big epic TV needs a bit of that. And I think Nynaeve not *being able* to do anything in a major moment is building to an epic moment where she can finally channel what she wants *when* she wants (because her big time channeling moments have come when she wasn't trying or was actively trying to not use so much power).
I think torturing the captured sul'dam, and then feeling that sul'dam die with an arrow in her neck messed Nynaeve up more than they were able to convey in the episode. Add that to the way she has been struggling with the block and I was not surprised she could not pull herself together to channel during the battle.
I don't know how about him being Gaidal Cain. But he did look like a her from books the moment he showed up. Something about his weapon and shield. I like that he is a hero.
So I guess Uno will get reborn as Olver now. I'm looking forward to that kid having an eye patch.
agree. you can't really make the Nynaeve block theme work without having her choke at some important times. @@devlin76
If they werent going to give Rand his moment, bit rather shield him abd need saving AGAIN, at least they could have given more plausibility to Egwene defending for minutes by herself against Ishy, by having Nynaeve and/or Elayne assist her. Otherwise, I gave this ep an 8/10.
Agreed. Feels like so much is being taken from rand. It hurts
Agreed I really like BA show egwene but that was a bit too far for me as well
Perrin was helping with the magic shield he got from Uno.
@@sotek2345I swear this show is a looney tunes comedy.
Might as well get rid of Rand altogether, the dragon is our greatest weapon my ass. Just make it an all female cast and be done with it. maybe a 4
What I appreciate the most about your reviews is that you are honest and fair. You are neither a Bookcloak nor a Showcloak.
I wish I could separate my bookreader self from my show watching self the way you are able to do. This is one of the few times where I wished that I had never read the books so that I could watch this show without expectations or foreknowledge.
I have watched every episode the second it has been released and I DESPERATELY want to love it. I've been waiting for an adaptation for most of my adult life and I've devoured all the online content I could since the announcement that the show would be made. I loved the casting. I had some trepidation when it came to the selection of the showrunner due to his network tv background but he seemed to love the books so I wanted to give him a fair shake.
I understand that this is an adaptation of a gigantic series of highly detailed novels so I knew cuts had to be made, characters and stories would have to be blended, etc. I felt like my loins were sufficiently girded but they clearly were not. I was disappointed in Season 1. I thought the production values were very network tv level. The acting seemed really solid but the writing just felt...off. It didn't feel prestige level, it felt like Thursday at 9 PM on ABC level. Covid threw a giant monkey wrench into the production so I was willing to write off season 1 as something that was disappointing but was laying the groundwork for something better in the future.
Immediately upon starting the second season I could FEEL the upgrade as far as production values were concerned. The CGI was better, the world felt more expansive and lived in, the acting continued to improve. I knew that they had written themselves into some corners due to Covid but I was hopeful that they could get back on track as far as the characters and the overarching plot arcs. I think my own expectations are what have led me to my profound sense of disappointment.
The writing just...has not improved to match the improvement in production values. The handwaving away of not just book lore but established show lore in order to get to whatever predetermined outcome the writers want to get to is maddening. The fakeout deaths, the power inconsistencies, the introduction of invented side plots in order to flesh out secondary characters at the expense of actually fleshing out the main characters, the way a number of characters in the show just don't FEEL like the same characters from the books, the list goes on.
This isn't to say that they haven't done some things extremely well, just that so many of them don't feel earned. I blame the writers. Maybe Season 3 will bring an improvement in the storytelling and a lessening of the tired tropes that tv writers use over and over because it's just what tv writers do and are used to. I just don't know if I'm willing to go on that ride with them. Watching a show based on a book series that I love only to leave each viewing disappointed and kind of upset, isn't healthy. And the online discourse within the fandom over this show is kinda harmful.
TLDR; The show has disappointed me more than it has entertained me and this episode in particular was rushed, kinda cheesy, and in the end kind of a letdown.
The show is relentless trash. Has been from the start. I find it bizarre that so many people seem to be afraid to say it.
Watch an episode or two with a non-book reader. It’s the next best thing to experiencing it for the first time. Except don’t tell them anything. Then you’ll ruin it. 😂
"I wish I could separate my bookreader self from my show watching self the way you are able to do." You need to practice this skill - I recommend reading the A Song of Ice and Fire series and watching Game of Thrones. If that experience doesn't teach you to separate the two, nothing will :)
@@clasdauskas there is no comparing the quality of story adaptation, writing, production or casting of GoT vs. WoT.
Weiss & Benioff absolutely nailed the first several seasons of GoT and only struggled once they ran out of source material, which was GRRM not keeping his end of the deal. They cut very little out of such a complex series.
Judkins and crew have not nailed a single thing in adapting WoT. They have also made terrible and unnecessary changes in order to push their anti-male agenda. It sucks.
Honestly, I think you are WAY too generous to the showrunners.
"this show needs more time"
Does it though?
How much time in the last 16 hours of runtime has been wasted? How many sub plots have went nowhere? How many things have been rehashed multiple times? Jordan does that in the books, for sure. But first, I think even the biggest book fans will acknowledge that he loved to recap. Second, cycles and repetition are HEAVY themes in the books, and so they are more appropriate. Third... they get fucking LOADS of criticism. Consider: the fandom refers to a HUGE section of the books as "the slump." The the ORIGINAL BOOKS get that level of criticism... I honestly don't see why a hundred million dollar+ show should get a free pass.
The writers and producers CHOSE to do basically nothing for most of 2 seasons. They weren't even REALLY setting the scene. What world building has been done, really? If you're being VERY honest?
And this is the SECOND season finale where the Dragon has played second fiddle to Egwene. And Egwene does not NEED more than she gets in the books. Her book arch is fucking crazy and awesome... No amount of "extra time" is going to change the stone cold FACT that the show runners are just NOT TELLING the story that Jordan wrote. It's not an adaptation. It's barely even a homage.
I don't like people poo pooing the show for no reason, or denying when it DOES manage to entertain or convey some good narrative... but there comes a point where the ABSOLUTE desperation to give some arsehole show runner with an inflated ego the benefit of the doubt it just... kinda gross.
This is the kind of thing that requires an intervention. It shouldn't be enabled by rendering the people making decisions blameless for their own decisions. Circumstances CAN be used to fuel exciting decisions and lead to creative wonders.
And they will ALWAYS drive an audience to be forgiving.
But to take that leeway and just continue with the vanity project, rather than an earnest attempt at a respectful adaptation... I can't accept it.
I genuinely think people mistake credible performance (of which there are plenty, the cast by and large does a good job) for an acceptable standard of writing.
"good moments" do NOT excuse so many poor decisions.
"But muh Marvel movies are fun" is not an argument. That is some pretty condescending attitude imo. Particularly given the quality of the source material (even the BIGGEST comics fans will admit that a LOT of the source material is ridiculous)
And before everyone jumps on me for JUST being bitter or hating... I literally recommended the show to my mum *yesterday*
I couldn't in good conscience do that for S1, and S2 HAS been an improvement. But that is damning with faint praise.
She doesn't read for pleasure, so it will be her only way to experience one of my favourite series. I legit want to know what she thinks and hope she likes it.
But I REFUSE to pull punches in criticism and WILL die on the hill that people should stop treating a billion dollar company and a multimillionaire showrunner like a child that made you a drawing.
I enjoyed this episode, it wasn’t my favourite (5 and 6 were my favourite) but it was enjoyable.
I’ve come to the conclusion that I just don’t think Rafe is as talented a writer as say, Rammy Park who did ep 6 and a few of the others. For the discerning viewer, I think it makes a big difference to the quality of the episode, regardless of visuals.
I thought the stuff with Mat was great, seriously I love Donal Finn as Mat I think he’s even Mattier than book-Mat. But I don’t think the horn stuff was built up enough leading up to this event for it to pack as much punch as it could’ve.
I cannot fathom why they bothered to have Elayne and Nynaeve achieve 90% of their rescue mission only to waste the best parts on an arrow in Elayne’s leg whilst Nynaeve looked constipated- this genuinely made me tear my hair out and I’m a big fan of the show.
Egwene being able to collar Renna made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever based on the rules established in episode 6. I actually enjoyed her stand against Ishy but I felt extremely disappointed with the way they had Rand finish him off. It didn’t feel earned at all.
I enjoyed the reunion with Lan and Moiraine, I couldn’t stand the drama created between them but their characters felt truer in this episode, especially Lan. Didn’t mind Moiraine nuking the ships and I think they posed enough of a threat to be justified under the 3 oaths. I also enjoyed the fire dragon at the end, thought it was the right side of cheesy just about.
General stuff- Maseema and the Aiel fighting was very good, otherwise the visuals on the combat need to level-up. The Ways look much better now, and Lanfear ejecting them through a waygate was very good.
I think Mat and Moghedian were my absolute favourite moments in the episode.
Ahh I kinda just want Rafe to stick to showrunners duties and coordinating everything and let the better writers take the helm. If the entire season was episode 5+6 writing standards (also the directing in these episodes was very strong) it would be absolutely sensational. As it is, it’s still very good and if season 3 can improve by this much again then I’m hoping the show will have the legs to go the full distance.
Wow found out Rammy Park is the writer for the animated shorts. Makes a lot of sense now!
@@remixisthis yeah she’s phenomenal I really hope they’ve put her talents to good use for S3
As much as I find the idea of someone starring in a mediocre reality TV show becoming a showrunner absolutely ludicrous, I think more than Rafe, it's to do with Sanaa Hamri. She had an interview where she gave her assessment of Mat as a character, and it was ABSOLUTE bullshit. Episodes 5 and 6 were directed by Maja Vrvilo and they were MILES better than episodes 7 and 8 in my opinion (Sana directed those). I agree though, I have a lot of hope for the show; I just think they need to minimize Sana's role.
@@rohinsengupta604yeah I noticed that 5 and 6 correlated with Maja Vrvilo directing. Good shout on Saana Hamri, I’ve noticed the same in interviews although I can’t recall her specific take on Mat. Maybe she could be motivation coordinator instead? It was difficult watching ep 7+8 after 5+6 !
@@Ceej474 right? I think Maja did a really good job with 5&6 tbh, I really hope they give her more episodes to direct next season onwards. Sanaa's take on Mat was basically "he's insecure about himself and has a lot of darkness inside him" which is nuts. Mat's main character flaw is him trying to shirk off responsibility, not...whatever this is. And finally someone agrees that 7&8 were a major stepdown from 5&6! I didn't understand why people liked 7 so much; they butchered Siuan's character, not to mention that Rand despite being inexperienced should have been able to break out of the shield on him due to his raw power.
I mean, Aquaman shows up after the Horn is blown and Perrin saves the day with Captain America's shield. Sums up that episode...
You took the words right out of my mouth! I've been okay with almost all of the changes they've made, but this episodes changes bothered me a bit more than usual. Literally, I said almost exactly the same things that you did to my husband after watching last night. The only additional complaint I had was I hated everything about the horn and the scenes with it. IMO, it sounded like a dead frog. The books say "it was a clear note, golden as the horn was golden." It was described as a sound "so sweet he wanted to laugh, so mournful he wanted to cry." I was envisioning a heavily audio engineered, hauntingly beautiful sound. Almost like a loon calling on a misty lake. Also, the image of it on the cover of The Great Hunt is how I was picturing it... not that lumpy ugly thing. The mist was lacking and we barely got Brigitte (maybe she hasn't been permanently cast?) Anyway... in the grand scheme of things, these are nitpicky complaints that don't really matter to the story. But they annoyed me. I'm still looking forward to season 3.
I wouldn't be surprised if Brigitte Silverbow is written out and we've seen all of her that we're going to see.
@@gumshoe2273 If they cut Birgitte Silverbow, I'll think I'll be disappointed. It'll feel like the Horn of Valere was just a badly written plot device (which it is already going to border on anyway, given how much they've already cut for time). Her storyline feels pretty important to Elayne's to me. They should have time to bring in at least part of her story arc - even if its just to help against Moghedien and she doesn't end up as a warder (honestly, I think I'd be ok with that if they have to cut it for time or change it somehow), but all that could be several seasons away (hence, not cast yet). We'll see!
It made NO SENSE for Nyneave to be a wisdom and then push a whole arrow through Elayne's leg AND THEM LEAVE IT TO BLEED OUT!! Like, WHO DOES THAT?
I imagine someone has said this…but Rand handling Turak and his army was epic and hilarious and delicious IMO. CANNOT agree more that we need more time. I would’ve LOVED to see them actually steal the horn. Them already having it was jarring lol
it was heavily implied that lanfear gave it to them "a woman from carhien helped us get it"
It would have made sense if he had been training all season, but he's been doing the opposite of that. Or they could have had Lews leaking in with the horn blown which would have been something to work with in the future but they didn't do that either. The boy who doesn't know how to do anything suddenly channels in ways he didn't earn. I found it one of the most disappointing scenes of the finale. Which, to be clear, I quite enjoyed in other ways.
Extremely disappointed Rand didn’t get his sword fights. However it wouldn’t have been earned.
I agree! They're probably moving thse scenes to s3 or s4
That wouldn't have been earned because, he didn't spend time with Lan learning and practicing over and over again like in the books. His kill of Ishamael in the show was pretty anti-climactic compared to what happened in TGH.
Judging by other choreography it probably didn’t look good
Agree 100%. Rand needs to practice sword forms with Lan before they show him killing it in an actual swordfight.
Rand is intentionally being made weak. Robert Jordan is clear. Rand Al Thor IS the hero. HE alone faces the actual Dark One at Shayol Ghul. These producers WILL NOT let that happen.
I was so upset over season 1 that my expectations were super low for s2, and I can watch some campy shit (saw legend of the seeker in its entirety). like a lot of commenters, and I believe most casual fans, my biggest gripe is with Rand being a weak pushover, and not being given a SINGLE moment to shine across 2 seasons of television. Main character of the books, the "chosen one" - mentioned multiple times, but never shown on the screen. it's a travesty tbh
Give it time! He will shine eventually. That was his friends time to shine. Also, didnt he just waste Turak and friends in a second?
Each to their own I have really enjoyed this season. And I am ok with Rand's build up of power being slower
I agree, I get they’re like “oh yeah rand doesn’t know how to channel it doesn’t make sense yet.” But it doesn’t make sense in the books either, but it does once you understand just how powerful he is, and from LTT taking over from time to time.
@@Saa_la You are out of your mind. This show is trash. Rand is a white man. He will not be anything but a cuck.
I think Rand's first big moment is going to be against Bel'al in S3. Give him a weaker Forsaken (who is also a blademaster) to absolutely go ham on in a sword and One Power fight. It could also show how far beyond the Aes Sedai even the weakest Forsaken is, and then have him get destroyed by Rand.
"...where of course they fall madly in love" 🤣🤣🤣
The heroes never said Mat is one of them, just that they fought on his side many times. there can be a "Mat the hornsounder" in every age without him being tied to it like the heroes
Good point!
Exactly, Mats weave has canonically fought alongside heroes of the horn as a general
@@psykedudeThe weird thing is Rand was given a storyline in Season 2, its just that nothing of it came to fruition.
Just checked out the season 2 finale of Wheel of Time, and it's got a 4.85/5 rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Kudos to the creators for crafting a show that appeals to both newcomers like me and those who've read the books. I guess some folks just prefer a more straightforward approach to storytelling, but hey, to each their own! 😉
This episode was the best to me. I'm not a book reader, mind you. It's a shame that it just felt too short.
As a book reader I’m upset by some of the changes (though they may simply saving certain plot lines and events for later) but I so enjoyed this season a lot.
I’m glad non book readers are enjoying this take on the story as well.
OMG the Rita Repulsa comment was spot on! Exactly what I was trying and failing to express to myself.
Rafe wants to minimize the boys while building up the girls. He can’t have Rand get hero moments.
Not yet. Give it time.
This is absolutely the case. It is delusional to pretend that Rand will magically get his moments in the next Season. The boys were throwaway characters this season and they will continue to remain so under the current direction.
Exactly. This was supposed to be Rand vs Ishamael showdown but somehow they managed to make Egwene the star again lol. The way this show is going I wont be surprised if it is Egwene or Nynaeve who defeats the dark one lol.
Interesting takes, but wrong takes. It's okay to be frustrated that Rand didn't get his moments, but be logical about what you imply.
@@Saa_la Apparently logic doesnt apply to the girls. One can heal the dead and can hold off a foresaken after being brutally hurt by boulders and being thrown off against a wall.
Rand just gets shielded for no reason and apparently needs a woman everytime to help him, while Egwene can do everything on her own.
It seems like they saw a great opportunity to push their agendas lol. Even dialogues are made to sound like some agenda shit. "I came to save you but it seems like you didnt need it." Sounds like a feminist wrote this dialogue to reinforce that women dont need anyone to help them while the main lead is being carried around by women lol.
Thank you for pointing out the errors with Moiraine channeling the fire, etc. at the Seanchan ships.
FYI, the Whitecloak children were carrying heavy incense sconces, not candles. They can produce some pretty thick smoke, but not enough for an acre or two, as shown in the episode. It reminded me of Altar Boys from the Roman Catholic religion, although in the church the priest is the one who normally wields the incense, but only for some specific masses.
Yeah... they were like creepy acolyte alter-boys. I sort of liked them, but like so many things in this adaptation, they felt rushed.
You could explain away the heavy incense sconces as being ter-angreal. One does not need to channel to use some ter-angreal. Such a thing would be additive and consistent with the lore of the Wheel of Time. I have no issues with that.
@@gilian2587 I feel like using ter'angreal is something White Cloaks would not do, but then again, they were always failing to live up to their own lofty virtue. Also, it could be they just don't understand what they are. But I agree. It's not a big deal. It's an acceptable trade off for an epic moment on screen.
They are called "censers"
@@gilian2587 I don't think Whitecloaks would use terangreal due to their hatred of magic.
I don’t understand the decision to have Rand defeat Ishamael by stabbing him with a sword. I know we haven’t seen any training in the one power for Rand, so maybe wouldn’t make sense to have him defeat him that way, but the sword stab seemed too easy.
Thats how he kills him in the book lol
I would myself a casual book reader since I have only read through the series once and I am in the early process of a re-read. That being said, I loved this episode and I loved this season. I think that is because I have fully embraced the "another turning of the wheel" concept. The core of the characters is what has (generally speaking) been consistent and it has been fun to watch. Also, I loved that Uno is a Hero of the Horn. I think the fans deserved this since he was killed off so early. We will see if he comes back in the series or not, thought. I am thinking that he is done for the series and this was his magnum opus.
I loved the finale. I would have liked a 2 episode finale, but we only had so much time. I liked the adaptations from the books. There were many good moments. Can’t wait until Season 3.
I think the redemption arc for Matt (even though I don't think they earned it with the storyline, as a book fan I was invested) was very emotionally satisfying... You could tell when he blew the horn, came to the realization that he wasn't a worthless nothing like his mother said, the relief he felt was palpable, and his countenance changed, even in his eyes, it was very moving, but I'm not sure a TV series person would get all that just because they weren't prepared for it.
TV series person here, I got it.
From what I have seen they did.
I found it to be incredibly cheesy and literally rolled my eyes when Mat said, “I remember!” He spent most of two seasons wondering if he was really as bad as others said he was. Then he blew the horn and suddenly remembered he was a hero of the horn and a good person. Wtf? Horrible writing.
I agree with your assessment mostly. As usual good job and thank you for optimism.
I agree with you about Rand. He's the Dragon reborn and they are making him so weak.
Your 'being the best boy' line is just awesome.
Wolves don't bark. Also they have miniature wolves or what!
3:10 OOOHHH I just realized. Them all kneeling. Like Rand killing the Darkfriend caravan in the Dragon Reborn.
I have tried and tried, but as someone who loves the books, I can't bring myself to like this show. I understand cutting things for time. I understand combining characters for budget reasons. I understand the transition from book to TV means you don't get to hear the inner dialog and motivations. that's why books are superior to motion pictures for storytelling. What I just can't forgive is major changes to character's motivations, strengths and flaws. They have changed the motivation and life walk of every character so much they are not likable. When I find myself liking Liandrin the most of the TV characters, there is a problem. I care more about what happened to her than any of the Emmond's Field people. It's a shame they couldn't have left the characters alone and just changed the story to fit in the time they had. As a book reader, I give this episode a 2/10. If I sit that aside and just look at it as a stand alone series, it's a 4/10 at most.
I agree. Even without comparing it to the books, the TV show writing is sub par. It’s such a shame because the actors are very talented and could do an amazing job if they had a better script to work with. The fantastic Egwene damane episode shows that they’re capable of so much better.
I would give it a 6/6.5. My biggest problem is that there is no power equivalency in the one power. Season 1: a bunch of Aes Sedai can’t hold off an attack by like 50 upjumped followers of Logain. Season 2: Moraine sinks the entire fleet from a mile. Also, a novice who has spent maybe weeks or at most multiple months at the White Tower healing a wound from *that* dagger? It’s not so much that there are changes as *what* they decided to change for little discernible reason. All that being said, way better than season 1 and I’m super happy they just memory holed that Loial and all the Shinarans died in season 1.
I mean i took it as all of the Aes Sedai were exausted from shielding Logain since they talk about how hard it was over and over
You don't mention Egwene, who's a novice at this point, being able to hold off a forsaken, with powers and experience so out of this time that they can throw away the Amyrlin seat or Moiraine with a flick of their hands. Huh? Rand's epic endings have been stolen from him for two consecutive seasons. It's unclear why should we root for him? He hasn't really done anything up to this point. He's also free trading with the forsakens; at this point of time he should be rejecting them wholesale
`From a book-reader perspective, I missed a few things:
* Mat's line about "does it say we can't use it *before* the Last Battle?" (paraphrased)
* Mat using the dagger for the first time when facing Turak's guards (+5 Dagger of Oh, Hell No!)
* Rand actually earning the Blademaster title. (But the show didn't really let him earn it through training wit Lan, so it's better that they gave him an Indiana Jones moment instead.)
* Ingtar's Darkfriend reveal and absolution by Rand. (But again, the show didn't really let him earn redemption, so best to drop the plot arc entirely, I suppose.)
From a plot beat perspective, I liked Egwene's arc. From a logic perspective, it made no sense. Two women collaring each other should probably have caused some kind of feedback loop that burned them both out or killed them. I understand they were going for a "battle of wills," but it just felt weird. Also, given how important training is (Siuan could shield Rand mostly due to superior training), Egwene should not have been able to go toe-to-toe with Ishamael, even purely on defense. She's only the second-most powerful Aes Sedai of the last thousand years. That being said, I still *enjoyed* the execution.
There were a lot of clunky parts that made me scratch my head but I enjoyed it overall and am far more invested than I was at the end of last season
I keep hearing you say that non book readers will like the show but the non readers I know have stopped watching around ep 3 because the show does such a bad job of explaining the magic and who all of the different factions are that they have no idea what's going on.
This episode is the worst thing I ever watch. I am so angry right now
The heros of the horn were like the army of the dead. "Ooop this little battle is over lets vanish". The battles were not yet over.
Every episode in this season, I loved so much more watching it the second time around! Although there were many inconsistencies and unbelievable moments as you said, I was still blown away and thoroughly enjoyed this finale! 😁
So, if I finish reading the books by next season, does that make me unshielded?
I love that Uno is a hero of the horn! This is one death I’m so glad wasn’t final. Seeing him standing there with the other heroes was one of the best moments in the episode. 10/10 for me. I don’t care about characters having final deaths, though. I’m a show watcher who read the series after watching S1. I’m on my first reread.
I was happy Uno was a hero of the horn! First, it adds an already-recognisable character to the roster of summoned heroes, which is narratively useful. Second, from a book point of view, there is literally no such thing as a final death, and Uno did die, as much as it's possible for anyone to die in Randland! It's not ideal that all deaths are ontologically fakeout deaths... But he is "actually dead" and being summoned by the horn doesn't really spoil that IMO (as opposed to Nynaeve's and Loial's fakeout deaths which do devalue death in the show).
I love Uno as a Hero of The Horn. He died like a hero and he deserved to be in the horn.
Right? I was so pissed when he bit it! He made it all the way through the last battle, damnit! But then I saw him among the heroes, and I literally squeeled! Not ashamed to admit it!
@@ericrees4183unless Balefire...
I honestly disliked it. I love Uno as a character, but having him be a hero of the horn felt like cheesy fan service and really cheapened the whole concept.
This was probably my favorite episode so far, and it had some beautiful shots in it as well. I actually cried a little because I was so happy when Mat had his moment and spoke in the old tongue. As a huge fan of the books getting to see moments like that made me so happy and the acting was great all around. I think they used their budget really well, especially for this episode, and ended the season with a bang.
This is not an adaptation of Robert Jordan's amazing series it's a war crime!
Even the animated version and Jackson's lord of the rings at least stuck to adoption and not rewriting the whole book for themselves
I'm looking at it as a mirror world which allows me to take off my book hat. So I've really enjoyed jt. And my wife has enjoyed it and she finally talks to me about my favorite book series
Is it just me or does it seem like the writers just can't figure out how to spread charater moments and always seem to make one character their favorite. Season 1 it was Nynaeve, season 2 seems like it was Eqwene. At least Mat got somewhat of a moment. But it just seems like Rand is not a character the writers like. He literally gets to walk 10 feet and stab a seemingly defenseless guy with his sword. I guess he did get his Indiana Jones moment with the High Lord towards the beginning...
How did Moirain break the 3 oaths when she attacked the Seanchan?
They aren’t clearly dark friends, they are not threatening her or her warder or another Sister. So she can’t kill them. Lan even says they may be innocent people.
@@stephencruickshank3868 yes, I think the show writers screwed up.
This was a pretty good episode. Overall, i was very very happy with this season.
The only problem seems to be hoe the showrunner seems to view Rand. From a purely tv story position, there is a huge problem.
We have been constantly told how amazing the dragon is. How necessary. He is the dragon reborn. Lews therin. The water that turns the wheel. The most powerful channeler. The key to the dark ones vistory. His identity was the entire McGuffin of the first season (a bad choice that required keeping characterization of the Edmonds fielders to a minimum.)
Told. And told. And told and told and told and told and told. Told over and over again.
And at every point in this episode (indeed, this entire series), aside from a brief (a absolutely brilliant) homage to Indiana Jones, the dragon reborn is once again displayed as a limp impotent disappointment.
Apologies for my phallic imagery.
If you are a fan of Brooklyn 9 9, he is the Vulture, swooping in after %95 of the case had been solved. He stands on the tower people cheering....when it was everyone else who actually did all the heavy lifting.
He does nothing until everyone else has done everything. And then he takes his 5% and calls it a day, bringing the glory home.
Pathetic.
I want it clear. Misogyny is stupid and wrong. Completely. This series is replete with competent female characters who have agency, who are role models, who are bad ass and who EVERYONE- male or female- should aspire to emulate.
But story telling is not a zero sum game. Telling a story of powerful women does not require that powerful men's stories cannot be a part of it or that male characters must be weakened or feminized in the patriarchal sense- to exist solely as motivations or without any agency apart from their female counterparts.
But after 2 seasons, there seems to be a pattern that has become clear. The role of the dragon is being toned down to an almost "also ran" position. Female characters are shown time and again, powerful and doing the impossible, often in contradiction to established rules of the show itself. Egwene can somehow take on Ishamael for a time...really? In the universe they have written, this is impossible. But for some reason, its not enough that Egwene frees herself (which was very cleverly done and showed her strength of will against Renna). No, we need to see that she is such a boss that she can take on a Chosen and hold out for a good while....all the while rand is on his knees....for a 2nd time this season.
Again and again we see the strength of egwene and nynaeve....but so far NONE of the male characters are given the same respect or their own moments. They are stripped of agency. Lan literally has no story without Moiraine, no role. His arch this season was to realize that her work was the most important theme and that if that means being just her servant, that is OK. That is his role as a lesser. Even though she disabuses him of the "lesser" part, he nonetheless has no ability to find a purpose without moiraine. He is not the Lan we love. In an adaptation, all I want is the characters we love to remain consistent. But they arent.
This is not pathetic men's rights concerns. This is HONEST critique. The writers seem to be going out of their way to reposition the focus of the story away from the dragon in particular, and the other men in general- Mat didnt earn his hero moment. He was magically given it. Perrin hulked out. There was no development. Not really more complicated than that.- so that its about the group as a whole...and nynaeve, moiraine and egwene in particular.
Again, this is not a zero sum game. There is room for greatness for all. I want people to aspire to be as badass as Far Dareis Mai or as strong as the Wise Ones (notice I specifically exclude the White Tower. They espouse their own form of toxic culture that should be avoided. ) Moiraine and Lan were amazing, finally working as a team. It was what the theme of the series was.
But every critism of this show seems to avoid that very large elephant in the room.
I keep waiting for a content creator willing to state the obvious problem.
It's show, not tell.
If the fucking dragon reborn is a big deal, you better show it. And if the other male characters matter, then given then actual chatacter arcs.
And enough with alanna and her warders. You have 8 eps per season and 8 seasons if you are lucky. Dont waste my time on them. Yes, Amazon is at fault for 8 eps instead of 10. But wasting that precious time on pointless drama (alanna Lan moiraine stuff) is their decision. They don't get to hide behind the claim it is Amazon's fault
Make us care about the main chatacters, not waste time with people who dont matter to the story. (And alanna doesn't matter. She ends up being nearly pointless and mostly a tool. She could have been cut out easily without any impact.)
At this point, I'd be interested to know what non book readers thing of the dragon as a hero, savior and concept. Unprompted or by leading questions, what is their impression about whether the dragon actually matters? What are their predictions for the role of the dragon in the series as it progresses?
Questions like that could be illuminating and indicate whether this impression is actually real or is merely perceived from book fans.
Great work though. I appreciate your honesty and integrity. Keep it up!
This 100%. I am not a mens right activist at all, but they curbed the arcs of all male characters to give the female characters bigger arcs (in the case of egwene and nyneave i dont mind, their arcs warant their screentime). But random female characters like liandrin and alana do not warrant the time and attention given to them AT ALL, (even if liandrin is incredibly well portrayed).
The next couple of episodes will hopefully catch the dudes up with the ladies.
As for a non-book reader watching Rand: my girlfriend thought him the most boring character that barely does anything interesting. At least some more character was shown this season, but not enough to actually warant screentime for her.
That is honestly a travesty. This season was an amazing step up but it has a lot of ground to cover before it finally becomes up to my personal standard.
Last night in the World of Dreams, Rafe revealed a spin off series of an Oceans 11 type caper in which our fab five along with their friends use their diverse powers to set free all collared aes sedai under the seanchen control. It totally will happen. My dreams come true.
The best part was Matt's "Dovie'andi se tovya sagain" shout. Loved this. Did not love all of the suspension of disbelief moments. Fight scenes were to choreographed and didn't sell.
Do you know what that means?
Time to toss the dice
I think Nynaeve’s block works differently in the show. So I think we need to give them a little time to explain it.
I completely agree about Rand needing some really big moments!
Wow! What a finale! And how much they packed in. I’m quite impressed. They’ve set up future seasons so perfectly. Very importantly they got most things back on track from the Covid and Barney leaving issues from the end of season 1.
The hilarity of cavalry charging at a walled city... LMAO
This episode wasn't perfect but I REALLY enjoyed it, especially the Mat scenes. Uno as Gaidal Cain is perfect IMO and has become cannon in my head since I saw him as a hero of the horn. The one thing that threw me off was Moirane seemingly breaking one of the oaths and I had to go and read the 3 oaths to make sure: "Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense...". Bit of a stretch but I could see Moiraine thinking that the Seanchan shielding Rand could be considered Darkfriends since they're doing the Forsaken's bidding...
Agree
Moiraine was just attacking some ships, and oh darn those danged Seanchan just happen to be on them.
I took it as they were shielding the Dragon so that makes it the extreme last defense of everyone basically. Allowing her to do some slaughter
I would think defending your ward (no, not warder, ward in the sense of someone who is being cared for) from an attack would not break the third oath. Also, if she saw Rand was shielded and someone else was channeling a shield against another channeling on the tower, that there is an Aes Sedai up there who needs aid (even through Egwene is still a novice).
Also, she attacked objects (the ships) and not people. It tracks with how she killed the ferryman in Tarren Ferry in S1.
@@MasterRahl221 This is actually how I took it. Moiraine was going to fire bomb the ship to break the weave. She was not targeting the people. Of course we did see Lan point out the possibility that innocent people could be on the ship.
The Hopper dying got me in the feels
So will Padan Fain ever get the dagger back from Mat? He should be even more addicted to it than Mat, but when he sees it on the end of a stick he loses his sh*t and runs off screaming for the guards?
Why would padan need the dagger? Rand has the wound so the show doesn’t need him anymore
Hopper is forever the best boi of our hearts.
We had better see him again, as we should!
Uno is Gaidal Cain. Rafe confirmed it in a Collider interview this morning. Him coming back was an excellent way to show not tell how the horn works. None of the heroes we know mean anything to non book readers. Seeing someone they know is an excellent way to explain the horn. I quite enjoyed it as I was pretty devistated by Uno's death. As far as Moiraine and the oaths, all she has to do is believe her life is in danger and she can use the power as a weapon. It's the Seanchan, her life is definitely in danger.
Doesn't explain not feeling in danger with lanfear so I'm not into the show.
@@permagamerog5332 what does that have to do with it?
What your saying about Moiraine is complete nonsense. What she did is an obvious violation of the three oaths. She could have used the one power against he soldiers attacking her on the beach, but not sinking an entire fleet of ships full of people she only suspected of doing nefarious things. Its absolute bullshit to say its not a violation of the three oaths. Otherwise whats the point of the oaths? If all an Aes Sedai has to do is suspect someone is doing something they don't like then they can use the one power to kill, there is literally nothing stopping any Aes Sedai from using the one power to kill anyone at anytime.
@@JayAshkevron show WoT works off florida stand your ground laws.
@@Elluwrath:) Ah well that makes a lot more sense. Though I think even Florida would raise an eyebrow if you killed your attacker and everyone in every house around yours just to make sure you're safe.
I loved it over-all, period. Special the end scene with Lanfear having coldwar by another Forsaken.
I LOVED the finale and I couldn’t wait to see what your thoughts were!
Egwene is THE character of this show. Like if you agree.
Wheel of time TV Show is starting to become one of my favorites. I can not wait to see where they go in Season 3. Big fan off the Aiel spear maidens. They are almost a cheat mode for the good guys :D Perrin got his Axe and shield and I enjoyed how Mat atlast started to show some of his abilities with that spear of his. Also we are now seeing Rand with the wicked wound that never will heal. I did enjoy the ending with the knowledge that 5 more forsaken are on the lose. and Lanfear have meet her match.
On Fain, there was a shot of him in the 2022 production wrap trailer in a forest that I don’t recall in the show. I wonder if he had some scenes cut
Perhaps controversially, I’m happy Nynaeve wasn’t a saviour this episode. She has received so much focus and I find her repeated deus ex machina explosions of power dull. Great to see focus on the others. I suspect Nyn will grow next season through rivalry with Moghidien.
Nae'blis if it helps: (1) Having Uno be a hero connects for show-only fans that the Heroes of the Horn are dead people / spirits, and, (2) Moiraine was able to attack the ships and not break the Three Oaths because if the damane killed Rand than they would be killing the world and essentially killing her and Lan along with it.
All hail the Lady Dragon Egwene al Vere, taveren and champion of the light!
The Aes Sedai-Fu kills any tension I feel whenever it's used in battle scenes. The Forsaken are my favorite channelers to watch.
My book reader self will never be able to be let go. Not while they still call it Wheel of Time. Rafe's ego here is almost unfathomable. And the truth is 8 episodes were plenty, if you don't throw in all the extraneous changes Rafe's ego decided were needed.
If you can't watch a tv show without making personal attacks against the creator then maybe don't watch it.
@@Adamdidit when the creator is taking the name of a great series of books and trashing it like this, I will call it out.
@billnolte8644 That's not what you're doing. You're personally insulting a person you don't know becuase they made choices you dont like. Thats it. Nothing more.
The rest is just self aggrandizing to make your complaint sound important. It's not.
@@Adamdidit no, that is exactly what I am doing. You just disagree with me and therefore feel I shouldn't be able to do it. Pretty typical.
@@billnolte8644 You having to lie and put words in my mouth says it all.
Everyone else gets their moment except my fucking boy Rand yet again. Why they trying so hard to make it seem like he isnt our main character?! Everyone is so overpowered without it being earned and then he shits out piddly wee weaves. Underwhelming end to Ishy. Everything else in this ep was cool and I can mostly get on board with the changes and interpretation. I just cannot forgive this Rand eraser.
Also, I wish ingtar got a wee moment to say his bit about being a dark friend but alas.