AI vs. Classics teacher 👨💻 ChatGPT speaks Ancient Greek! Koine & Attic
Вставка
- Опубліковано 18 тра 2023
- AI is about to take over the world, and Latin with it! ...or is it? In this video, I give my review of OpenAI's ChatGPT as it "speaks" Ancient Greek with me. Is it up to the most basic of tasks? Is it a poet and it didn't know it? See what the wonders of artificial intelligence can do with ancient languages in the modern age.
Sign up for lessons of the Ancient Language. Institute to learn Latin, ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Old English! ancientlanguage.com 🏺
🦂 Support my work on Patreon:
/ lukeranieri
📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks:
luke-ranieri.myshopify.com
🤠 Take my course LATIN UNCOVERED on StoryLearning, including my original Latin adventure novella "Vir Petasātus"
learn.storylearning.com/lu-pr...
🦂 Sign up for my Latin Pronunciation & Conversation series on Patreon:
/ 54058196
☕️ Support my work with PayPal:
paypal.me/lukeranieri
And if you like, do consider joining this channel:
/ @polymathy_luke
🏛 Latin by the Ranieri-Dowling Method: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/co...
🏺Ancient Greek by the Ranieri-Dowling Method: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com/co...
🏛 Ancient Greek in Action · Free Greek Lessons:
• Ancient Greek in Actio...
👨🏫 My Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata playlist · Free Latin Lessons:
• Greetings in Latin · L...
🦂 ScorpioMartianus (my channel for content in Latin, Ancient Greek, & Ancient Egyptian)
/ scorpiomartianus
🎙 Hundreds of hours of Latin & Greek audio:
lukeranieri.com/audio
🌍 polýMATHY website:
lukeranieri.com/polymathy/
🌅 polýMATHY on Instagram:
/ lukeranieri
🦁 Legio XIII Latin Language Podcast:
/ legioxiii
👕 Merch:
teespring.com/stores/scorpiom...
🦂 www.ScorpioMartianus.com
🦅 www.LukeRanieri.com
📖 My book Ranieri Reverse Recall on Amazon:
amzn.to/2nVUfqd
Intro and outro music: Overture of Die Zauberflöte (The Magic Flute) by Mozart
#chatgpt #greek #koine
In response to the notion that Modern Greek is the same language as Ancient Greek, while Italian and Latin are not:
There probably aren't any linguists outside of Greece that hold the opinion that MG and AG are the same language, because linguists recognise there is no clear definition of language, which I covered here:
ua-cam.com/video/zUlNhs8rJ_g/v-deo.html
We can, however, as many Greeks have insisted over the years, compare AG and MG with Latin and Italian, or Old English and Modern English, or any number of other language pairs where one is descended from the other. Greeks (ones who aren’t especially familiar with all of these languages) tend to harp that Greek is unique, because Modern Greek is uncommonly similar to Ancient Greek, whereas Italian, they opine, is very different from Latin, etc.
But when the languages are compared, the strong version of this argument is easy defeated. For every conservative feature of MG from AG, it lacks one that Italian retains from Latin. Modern Greek has a genitive case (sort of - it's more of the Balkan Sprachbund dative/genitive merged case that is found in the entire region), while Italian lost the genitive case (it did have it in an earlier stage; my last name is one such example) hundreds of years ago; yet Modern Standard Greek has no infinitives (ἔχειν > να έχω), whereas Italian has retained the active present infinitive from Latin (amāre > amare).
Naturally, we’re talking about Modern Standard Greek which is fundamentally Dimotiki, but I think most Greeks most believe that Katharevousa is somehow valid in these comparisons. I disregard Katherevousa completely, as has the Hellenic Republic. But, let's allow them this: if they were to say that Modern Greek is exclusively Katharevousa -which indeed has been used in modern times - and assert that it is very similar to Ancient Greek, then they would be quite correct, because Katharevousa *is* Ancient Greek fundamentally, with a few modernisms and small alterations, including a lot of shift in the meaning of vocabulary. For non-Greek Classicist who can read Ancient Greek, reading Katharevousa presents few problems because it’s really similar, especially the *grammar.* Modern Standard Greek, however, is just as opaque to the non-Greek Ancient Greek teacher as Italian is to a non-Italian Latin teacher: some things are recognizable, but *because they are different languages*, they require different training to be understood.
And this brings us to ask how me might define languages as being truly distinct one from another: is it vocabulary, or grammar, or pronunciation?
So many Ancient Greek words, thanks especially to the influence of Katharevousa, are indeed present in Modern Standard Greek. While a comparably large number of terms have been imported from Latin into Italian (and other Romance languages), I can easily agree that there are yet more on the Greek side of this question. Thus literate Greeks are often familiar with a number of Ancient Greek terms they might see in the Koine Bible or other Ancient Greek texts.
The problem there, however, is that these are actually false friends. So many terms that Greeks *think* they understand in Ancient Greek texts have very different meanings (the following are thanks to Dr. Alexandros Droseltis) :
aG: Ἄγγελος = messenger
mG: άγγελος = Angel
aG: κυβερνητική = the art of steering a ship
mG: κυβερνητική = cybernetics
aG: τὰ ἄλογα = the animals (which are speechless)
mG: τὰ ἄλογα = the horses
aG: πεῖρα = trial, attempt
mG: πείρα = experience
aG: πληγή = stroke
mG: πληγή = wound
aG: βασίλειον = palace; capital, royal treasury, tiara
mG: βασίλειο = kingdom
aG: ἐμπάθεια = strong passion
mG: εμπάθεια = hatred
aG: μαλακία = softness, moral weakness
mG: μαλακία = masturbation; stupidity
aG: φιλοσοφία = love of knowledge, systematic/scientific treatment of a subject, science
mG: φιλοσοφία = philosophy
aG: δουλεύω = I am a slave
mG: δουλεύω = I work
aG: παιδεύω = I bring (a child) up; educate
mG: παιδεύω = I torment (someone)
aG: φιλῶ = I love; I kiss
mG: φιλώ: I kiss
aG: αἰσχρός: ugly
mG: αισχρός: shameful
aG: θῡμός = soul, spirit; breath; desire; mind, temper
mG: θυμός = anger
aG: καταρράκτης = abrupt rain; waterfall; trapdoor; movable bridge
mG: καταρράκτης = waterfall
And some others still:
γαμέῶ / γαμώ
ὀμιλῶ / ομιλώ
μῆλον / μήλο
ἀναιρῶ / αναιρώ
ἀνίστημι / ανασταίνω
πολύπους / πολύπους
βάρβαρος / βάρβαρος
συνουσία / συνουσία
πάθος / πάθος
αἱσθάνομαι / αισθάνομαι
αστεῖος / αστείος
παιδεύω / παιδεύω
ἀμαρτάνω / αμαρτάνω
φεύγω / φεύγω
τὸ ἄκρον / το άκρο
κύβος / κύβος
κόσμος / κόσμος
φθάνω / φθάνω
So even though there is a lot of Ancient Greek vocabulary in Modern Greek, the false friends are incredibly high in number, and thus even the vocabulary leg of the “same language” argument is weak.
Any language can be defined by its grammar, vocabulary, and phonology. Looking at phonology, it’s apparent that Modern Greek pronunciation is much more different from that of Ancient Greek. This is easy if we go back to 5cBC Athens and use Classical Attic as the point of comparison, but even if we level the playing field and use 1cBC for both Latin and Ancient Greek, it’s quite apparent that Italian is more similar to Latin than Modern Greek phonology is to Ancient Greek ( I have a whole playlist on this: ua-cam.com/play/PLQQL5IeNgck0hFZ5oEfTV1Zhp_xksAgCz.html ); the most obvious is that Italian has retained geminated consonants while Modern Greek has not. Plus the vowels, consonants, etc.; for every change into Italian, there are as many into Modern Greek.
Ultimately, however, a language is most centrally defined by its fundamental grammar, and not vocabulary or even phonology. English has a vocabulary 60% (or more) derived from Latin, but English is *not* a Romance language, since it’s not vocabulary, but grammar - which is fundamentally Germanic in English - that forms a language’s core identity.
For all the similarities, Modern Greek and Ancient Greek are comparably different from each other as Italian and Latin. In addition to questions of culture and national identity, I conclude one of the main reasons that the two languages are conflated still today is that they bear the same name. It's really fascinating the power of names when it comes to identity. They are as important, but must be questioned and examined thoroughly.
🦂 Support my work on Patreon:
www.patreon.com/LukeRanieri
📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks:
luke-ranieri.myshopify.com
🤠 Take my course LATIN UNCOVERED on StoryLearning, including my original Latin adventure novella "Vir Petasātus"
learn.storylearning.com/lu-promo?affiliate_id=3932873
🦂 Sign up for my Latin Pronunciation & Conversation series on Patreon:
www.patreon.com/posts/54058196
“There’s no clear definition of language” and proceeds to provide your own definition which favors your desire to divorce the Greeks from their linguistic heritage. Wtf man? You are being very AntiHellenic and not Philhellenic. I get it you are a content creator and got bills to pay and are trying to make a living and it must being annoying having us pesky Greeks around who are the decadents of the language you are a big fan of but it’s our language at the end of the day so get over yourself. Modern and ancient are artificial boundaries on our linguistic tradition. It’s all Greek just at different stages. It’s simple for us. Why it’s complicated for *you* is your problem.
Thank you Luke for the comprehensive post. I now understand your point of view, it was something that I wanted to ask for quite some time.
I now believe that the confusion mostly stems from the following:
Firstly, as far as I know, Modern Greek is the only living language whose core identity is formed by and which is descended from Ancient Greek. This makes it easier for Greeks to view it as the same language.
Secondly, Modern Greek has retained many fixed expressions from Ancient Greek, and even though Katharevousa is not spoken outside church circles anymore, most Greeks are exposed to a lot of ancient terms; the infinitive is alive and well in the fixed expressions, and it is quite easy to understand its meaning when seen in another context.
Therefore, for even basically educated Greeks in the ancient language like myself, reading the Bible in its original presents few obstacles. For at least half of the words that have changed meaning from Ancient to Modern Greek that you mention, I either already knew the change in meaning or could in many cases infer the meaning from context.
By the way, that last paragraph only refers to Koine Greek; even Hellenistic would be a big problem for me, not to mention Attic or even worse Homeric, for which I could probably pick up the general idea of what is being said, at best. That's why I find it strange, to say the least, that all of these are categorized under the same umbrella term of "Ancient Greek". I would suppose that Homeric Greek at 100 CE would be as ancient and incomprehensible to Greek speakers of the time as it is now. Is this really the case?
What I'm ultimately trying to say is that we view this issue from quite different perspectives: Greeks have this opinion mostly based on what they can understand from Koine Greek (which I am guessing is more than you think), without accounting for the fact that most of what they understand is due to natural exposure to the ancient language. On the other hand, the scientific view is based on what a learner of Ancient Greek can understand of the modern language.
These are not the same thing, and I can now understand and accept the scientific view, so thanks for that.
Wow i didn’t know greek lost infinitives
Thanks for the comprehensive breakdown. Your the best👍
Miracolo! Miracolo!
Who knew?! I understand ancient Greek although they are _"different languages"_ from MG! 😆
*Every-single* example of the different meaning word-list, were known to me! wow! I must be special ! 😝
Considering, I had no classical ancient Greek education.... _It's a kind of magic!_ ♫
I wonder how many other _"different languages"_ I can also understand, at the same level, just by speaking MG!
Dude...... 🙄
The key for Greeks being able to understand Ancient Greek quite well is the writing. And I think is not comparable to Italian because of how conservative Greek is in everything other than the big phonological change from Ancient Greek to Koine Greek. Yeah grammar and syntax is quite harder but it's 2500 years. Also Katharevousa influenced Modern Greek but the relation of the literary language was always present through the years even for non-educated or slightly educated people. Just my opinion
Ironically it was the fact that Greek seized being a major language after the Ottoman conquest that made it so conservative. Greek basically vanishes for 400 years from 1450-1850.
@@mithrandirthegrey7644 Varieties were not conservative in everything of course but there was always a common ground in the literary language, so as a whole it was conservative. I don't know how to explain it better. Also it was used in these eras but slightly less formally. Folk songs, poems, and many more are still produced and flourish. Ecclesiastic literary use it's still present.
Even if it's not perfect, since it gets a good chunk of it right, it would help speed up work. Like, if you want to use ancient Greek for a game, have it produce it and then get a human to correct it. It's much faster than to do the whole work from scratch. CGPT has proven to be a supercharger for people in certain areas rather than a replacement.
It depends; in my case it would be a huge waste of time, since it would require so many corrections as not to be useful at all. It could be good for brainstorming some ideas on translation, but it’s not good enough even for the foundation.
@@polyMATHY_Luke You could share your knowledge of ancient languages with OpenAI for the purpose of training ChatGPT. That, at least, wouldn't be a waste.
gotta say, i love the pompeiian pronunciation of ancient greek, it's so pleasing to the ear
Thanks! Yeah, it’s pretty close to what people expect (similar to Erasmian), which is helpful.
I agree! But then again Luke makes any pronunciation sound legit! Still, this seems like it would be easy for Erasmian speakers to transition to, it sounds superb and best of all it is historical.
I agree. Much better than the typical Erasmian crap since it sounds more historical, distinguishes vowel quantity, and has that very Greek retracted S.
I agree. I recently switched over to the Lucian pronunciation because the Modern Greek pronunciation, even if I incorporate pitch accents and phonemic vowel length, doesn't sound right when it comes to words like 'η μήτηρ and 'ο πατήρ, for example. They have to have at least a long close /e:/ vowel.
Woah, I didn't know you were able to read modern greek so well. I wasn't expecting that you'd be so good. Well done.
Very kind. My MG is extremely poor, A2 at best
@@polyMATHY_Luke Still, very good. In the video, you read it so fast and clearly that you could even trick someone into thinking you were nearly fluent.😄
@@msicvbes4977 This man knows everything, nothing can surprise me anymore. He can even fly a helicopter (I am not joking).
Το απαρέμφατο στη νέα ελληνική δεν χρησιμοποιείται μόνο του, παρά μόνο μαζί με το βοηθητικό ρήμα «έχω» για τον σχηματισμό των συντελεσμένων ρηματικών χρόνων: έχει λύσει, έχει πει κλπ. Ένα ρήμα μπορεί να έχει δύο απαρέμφατα, το ένα του ενεργητικού αορίστου (έχει δέσει) και το άλλο του παθητικού (έχει δεθεί).
Its not right to say that there isnt infinitive in modern greek as there is in passiv past and energetic past . Thank you
liking the stache Luke!
It's greek may not be perfect, but was is perfect is Luke's mustache.
Appriciate this effort you are making. And like much of the AI stuff, there is nothing happening if one does not know the context thorouhgly beforehand.
The aspect that Modern Greek is the same language with the Ancient Greek it's not only nationalistic. Many linguists have this opinion. I think that these two types of greek are more close than Latin to Italian. In my opinion, Modern Greek is the same language with Koine Greek. The major change happened between ancient and koine. This is the reason that almost any educated Greek can understand for example the Bible written in Koine, without any translation. This is one of the reasons that Greek Orthodox Church don't use modern greek translation to the mass. Anyway, this is something debatable about being the same language or not. You are doing a great job, thank you!
As a Modern Greek speaker, I totally confirm. With not much effort I can understand Koine, which is not the case with Attic.
@@georgiosa.9893 Maybe it depends on how much one has been exposed to katharevousa? 19th century texts can be very atticizing, or so I've heard.
Whether two stages of a language are considered one or two languages is mostly a matter of perspective, anyway. They're certainly easier to understand if the spelling remains consistent. Not to mention modern Hellenic languages/dialects can be very divergent, sometimes.
Thanks for the comment. There probably aren't any linguists outside of Greece that hold the opinion that MG and AG are the same language, because serious linguists recognise there is no clear definition of language, which I covered here:
ua-cam.com/video/zUlNhs8rJ_g/v-deo.html
We can, however, as many Greeks have insisted over the years, compare AG and MG with Latin and Italian, or Old English and Modern English, or any number of other language pairs where one is descended from the other. Greeks (ones who aren’t especially familiar with all of these languages) tend to harp that Greek is unique, because Modern Greek is uncommonly similar to Ancient Greek, whereas Italian, they opine, is very different from Latin, etc.
But when the languages are compared, the strong version of this argument is easy defeated. For every conservative feature of MG from AG, it lacks one that Italian retains from Latin. Modern Greek has a genitive case (sort of - it's more of the Balkanized dative/genitive thing that is found in the entire Sprachbund), while Italian lost the genitive case (it did have it in an earlier stage; my last name is one such example) hundreds of years ago; yet Modern Standard Greek has no infinitives (ἔχειν > να έχω), whereas Italian has retained the active present infinitive from Latin (amāre > amare).
Naturally, we’re talking about Modern Standard Greek which is fundamentally Dimotiki, but I think most Greeks most believe that Katharevousa is somehow valid in these comparisons. If they were to say that Modern Greek is Katharevousa -which indeed has been used in modern times - is very similar to Ancient Greek, then they would be quite correct, because Katharevousa *is* Ancient Greek fundamentally, with a few modernisms and small alterations, including a lot of shift in the meaning of vocabulary. For non-Greek Classicist who can read Ancient Greek, reading Katharevousa presents few problems because it’s virtually identical, especially the *grammar.* Modern Standard Greek, however, is just as opaque to the non-Greek Ancient Greek teacher as Italian is to a non-Italian Latin teacher: some things are recognizable, but *because they are different languages*, they require different training to be understood.
And this brings us to ask how me might define languages as being truly distinct one from another: is it vocabulary, or grammar, or pronunciation?
So many Ancient Greek words, thanks especially to the influence of Katharevousa, are indeed present in Modern Standard Greek. While a comparably large number of terms have been imported from Latin into Italian (and other Romance languages), I can easily agree that there are yet more on the Greek side of this question. Thus literate Greeks are often familiar with a number of Ancient Greek terms they might see in the Koine Bible or other Ancient Greek texts.
The problem there, however, is that these are actually false friends. So many terms that Greeks *think* they understand in Ancient Greek texts have very different meanings (the following are thanks to Dr. Alexandros Droseltis) :
aG: Ἄγγελος = messenger
mG: άγγελος = Angel
aG: κυβερνητική = the art of steering a ship
mG: κυβερνητική = cybernetics
aG: τὰ ἄλογα = the animals (which are speechless)
mG: τὰ ἄλογα = the horses
aG: πεῖρα = trial, attempt
mG: πείρα = experience
aG: πληγή = stroke
mG: πληγή = wound
aG: βασίλειον = palace; capital, royal treasury, tiara
mG: βασίλειο = kingdom
aG: ἐμπάθεια = strong passion
mG: εμπάθεια = hatred
aG: μαλακία = softness, moral weakness
mG: μαλακία = masturbation; stupidity
aG: φιλοσοφία = love of knowledge, systematic/scientific treatment of a subject, science
mG: φιλοσοφία = philosophy
aG: δουλεύω = I am a slave
mG: δουλεύω = I work
aG: παιδεύω = I bring (a child) up; educate
mG: παιδεύω = I torment (someone)
aG: φιλῶ = I love; I kiss
mG: φιλώ: I kiss
aG: αἰσχρός: ugly
mG: αισχρός: shameful
aG: θῡμός = soul, spirit; breath; desire; mind, temper
mG: θυμός = anger
aG: καταρράκτης = abrupt rain; waterfall; trapdoor; movable bridge
mG: καταρράκτης = waterfall
And some others still:
γαμέῶ / γαμώ
ὀμιλῶ / ομιλώ
μῆλον / μήλο
ἀναιρῶ / αναιρώ
ἀνίστημι / ανασταίνω
πολύπους / πολύπους
βάρβαρος / βάρβαρος
συνουσία / συνουσία
πάθος / πάθος
αἱσθάνομαι / αισθάνομαι
αστεῖος / αστείος
παιδεύω / παιδεύω
ἀμαρτάνω / αμαρτάνω
φεύγω / φεύγω
τὸ ἄκρον / το άκρο
κύβος / κύβος
κόσμος / κόσμος
φθάνω / φθάνω
So even though there is a lot of Ancient Greek vocabulary in Modern Greek, the false friends are incredibly high in number, and thus even the vocabulary leg of the “same language” argument is weak.
Any language can be defined by its grammar, vocabulary, and phonology. Looking at phonology, it’s apparent that Modern Greek pronunciation is much more different from that of Ancient Greek. This is easy if we go back to 5cBC Athens and use Classical Attic as the point of comparison, but even if we level the playing field and use 1cBC for both Latin and Ancient Greek, it’s quite apparent that Italian is more similar to Latin than Modern Greek phonology is to Ancient Greek; the most obvious is that Italian has retained geminated consonants while Modern Greek has not. Plus the vowels, consonants, etc.; for every change into Italian, there are as many into Modern Greek.
Ultimately, however, a language is most centrally defined by its fundamental grammar, and not vocabulary or even phonology. English has a vocabulary 60% (or more) derived from Latin, but English is *not* a Romance language, since it’s not vocabulary, but grammar - which is fundamentally Germanic in English - that forms a language’s core identity.
For all the similarities, Modern Greek and Ancient Greek are comparably different from each other as Italian and Latin. In addition to questions of culture and national identity, I conclude one of the main reasons that the two languages are conflated still today is that they bear the same name.
Thanks for the discussion.
@@aokiaoki4238 See the problem is that there's so much nationalistic fervor bound up in these arguments that utterly absurd nonsense like this claim get put into wikipedia articles: "According to one estimation, "Homeric Greek is probably closer to Demotic than 12-century Middle English is to modern spoken English". Anyone with even the slightest knowledge of middle English knows this is false. This is the kind of thing someone would claim if their exposure to 12th century middle English was looking at a few paragraphs, not understanding the weird spelling, and concluding that it's completely different from modern English. Here's an actual example of early middle English, first in the original orthography:
Henri, þurȝ Godes fultume King on Engleneloande, Lhoauerd on Yrloande, Duk on Normandi, on Aquitaine, and Eorl on Aniow, send igretinge to alle hise holde, ilærde and ileawede on Huntendoneschire. Þæt witen ȝe wel alle þæt we willen and vnnen þæt þæt 5 vre rædesmen, alle oþer þe moare dæl of heom, þæt beoþ ichosen þurȝ us and þurȝ þæt loandes folk on vre kuneriche, habbeþ idon and schullen don in þe worþnesse of Gode and on vre treowþe, for þe freme of þe loande, þurȝ þe besiȝte of þan toforen iseide redesmen, beo stedefæst and ilestinde in alle þinge a buten ænde
Now if we take the exact same text but give it modern spelling, we can achieve something similar to the effect of modern Greek having a very conservative spelling which masks a lot of the changes from classical, let alone Homeric Greek:
Henry, through God's fultum, King on England, lord on Ireland, Duke on Normandy, on Aquitaine, and Earl on Anjou, sendeth igreeting to all his hold, ileared and ilewd on Huntingdoneshire. That witen ye well all that we willen and unnen that that our redsmen, all other the more deal of hem, that beeth ichosen through us and through that land's folk on our kinrich, haveth idone and shallen don in the worthness of God and on our truth, for the frem of the land, through the besight of the toforen isaid redsmen, be steadfast and lastend in all thing a bouten end.
So as you can see, not entirely incomprehensible, but with plenty of obsolete words and constructions which are too common to 100% follow the text. And now here's a modern translation:
Henry, through God's grace, king of England, Lord of Ireland, Duke of Normandy, of Aquitaine, and Earl of Anjou, sends greetings to all his lieges, clerical and lay, in Huntingdonshire. That you all know well that we desire, and grant that that which our councillors, all or the greater part of them, that have been chosen by us, and by the folk of the country of our kingdom, have done, and shall do, to the glory of God, and in furtherance of our allegiance, for the benefit of the country, by the provision of the aforesaid councillors, be stedfast and lasting in all things without end.
Anyone trying to say Homeric is this close to modern Greek is out of their god damned mind.
@@aokiaoki4238 The Nationalists are out in full force today. Why don't you find some Indians to argue with about Indo-European?
Χαίρετε κύριε Λουκά, παρακολουθώ εδώ και περίπου ένα έτος τα πολύ ενδιαφέροντα βίντεο που δημιουργείτε. Έχω όμως να παρατηρήσω ότι σε πολλές περιπτώσεις έχετε υποεκτιμήσει την σχέση που έχουν τα σύγχρονα ελληνικά και αυτά παλαιότερων εποχών (το γεγονός αυτό ήταν ιδιαίτερα έκδηλο στο βίντεο σχετικά με τα ονόματα των αρχαίων θεών). Υπάρχουν βεβαία διαφορές, όμως σε κύκλους μορφωμένων ομιλητών της γλώσσας, αρχαιότερες δομές της επιβιώνουν αναλλοίωτες ώστε να είναι δύσκολο να διαχωριστούν οι δύο μορφές της γλώσσας και έτσι να γίνεται λόγος περί δύο ξεχωριστών γλωσσών. Επί παραδείγματι (εδώ χρησιμοποιώ δοτική σε νεοελληνικό κείμενο) οι περισσότερες φράσεις που χρημοποιείτε στο chat-gpt ως αρχαίες θα μπορούσαν ναι ειπωθούν κάλλιστα και στα πλαίσια της νέας ελληνικής γλώσσας.
Έχουν ομοιότητες απλά επειδή είναι εξελιγμένη δεν είναι εύκολο ένας που ζεί τώρα να καταλάβει αρχαία από τον 7ο αιώνα π.χ
Έμαθα νέα ελληνικά πρώτα, και όταν έμαθα αρχαία Ελληνικά, η γνώση μου με τα νέα ελληνικά διευκόλυνε για να μάθω αρχαία Ελληνικά. Αλλά όταν ξεκίνησα με τα ομηρικά ελληνικά, η πρώτη σκέψη μου ήταν, αυτή είναι μια διαφορετική γλώσσα από τα νέα ελληνικά. Αν πάω σε κάποιον στην Ελλάδα σήμερα και του δείξω ένα κείμενο από την Ιλιάδα, αυτός δεν θα καταλάβω την σημασία του κειμένου (μόνο θα καταλάβω κάποιες λέξεις, περίπου δεκαπέντε της εκατό). Επίσης θα μπορούσες να παρακολουθήσεις το κανάλι μου επειδή δημιούργησα το πρώτο βίντεο μου στα ελληνικά και τα ελληνικά δεν είναι η μητρική μου γλώσσα;
@@wesleyoverton1145 τα ελληνικά τού Ομήρου φαίνονταν Αρχαία ακόμη και για τους Αρχαίους Έλληνες..Αυτά που είναι πιο κατανοητά για εμάς είναι η ελληνιστική κοινή και λίγο η Αττική διάλεκτος
Αγαπητέ δεν πρέπει να περιμένουμε κάτι καλύτερο από τον αυτοδίδακτο γλωσσολόγο από τα LIDL, Λούκιο, ο οποίος θεωρεί τη νέα ελληνική μια ρωμαϊκή γλώσσα (!) Μην ξεχνάς πως ως απόγονος Λατίνων έχει κόμπλεξ απέναντι στην ελληνική γλώσσα, αρχαία και νέα, και προσπαθεί να την απαξιώσει. Γιατί αν αφαιρέσεις τα ελληνικά από τα λατινικά, τότε θα απομείνει η άξεστη αρχέγονη γλώσσα των βαρβάρων του Λατίου...
@@MARS_OPLOMACHUS αδελφέ δε είπε πουθενά ότι είναι τα ελληνικά από τη Ρώμη και τα λατινικά🤣το αντίθετο είναι
Hey Luke, could u do a whole video explaining latin grammar, it's very difficult.
Come back to this in 6 months of something and see if our input helped
That would be great
Thanks bro.
I am impressed how you can speak ancient languages so well.
He's got a heavy american accent in modern Greek though, so I guess the same thing goes for ancient Greek too
Καθαρεβουσα, χαιρετε!
I agree with another post. Are you talking about koine greek or ancient Attica Greek. The thing is modern greek has many words from Katharevosa, which is a mimic ancient Greek. It also matters how good your greek and thesaurus. If you read greek legalize, it is essentially Katharevosa but conjugated into modern greek. The modern greek we also talk about is demotiki (vulgar Modern Greek).
Indeed, I would tend to agree. Part of the problem is that Katherevousa has been used in modern times, but is not Modern Standard Greek which is fundamentally Dimotiki. Katharevousa is quite similar to Ancient Greek.
Attic and Koine are virtually identical, so the fact that Greeks have insisted that Koine is somehow incredibly close to Modern Greek while Attic less so probably means they haven’t studied either ancient dialect in great detail.
@@polyMATHY_Luke They say that because of the style of the texts. Although Koine and Attic are very similarly morphologically, the Koine of the New Testament is very simple and straightforward while most Attic Greek texts are significantly more challenging.
I was trying to get a translation of the new test image but I realized it was lifting it from other translations… I wanted it to think and actually do the translating.
I asked ChatGPT 4 the prompt below. First I got the answer in English with Plato's words in Attic. Then I asked ChatGPT to translate the whole answer to Attic. I know nothing about Attic, so maybe someone else can tell us how accurate it is?
Can you write in Attic Greek what Plato said about virtue?
...
ChatGPT 4:
Sure, here's the Attic Greek version of my answer:
"Ναί, ἰδού ἀπόσπασμα ἀπὸ τὸν διάλογο τοῦ Πλάτωνος 'Μένων' στὴν πρωτότυπη ἀρχαία Ἑλληνική (ἥτις θὰ ἦταν στὴν διάλεκτο τῆς Ἀττικῆς, ἐπειδὴ αὐτὴν ἔγραψε ὁ Πλάτων). Τὸ ἀπόσπασμα εἶναι ὁ Σωκράτης ποὺ μιλᾷ περὶ τῆς ἀρετῆς:
'ἡ μὲν οὖν ἀρετὴ οὔτε φύσει οὔτε μαθήσει γίγνεται: ἀλλ᾽ οὐδὲ ἄνευ μαθήσεως καὶ ἀσκήσεως: ἀλλὰ θείᾳ μοίρᾳ τοῖς μὲν ἔστιν, τοῖς δ᾽ οὐκ ἔστιν.'
7:00 perhaps it is actually FINDING a translation, so to speak, among its inputs, not MAKING a translation. To test this, change the meaning severely by changing a few key words and see what it outputs. (It doesn't search, exactly, but if the phrases you give it only occur in a couple of places in all of its inputs, those texts other words such as English words will be weighed extremely heavily in the output.)
9:34 again, it may be finding documents with the original and the translation in its input set. See what you get when you use the same basic grammar and vocabulary but quite different meaning.
about in 2:30 . There is a huge misunderstanding about greek and ancient greek language . Yes the rules of modern greek make it different from ancient greek but in everyday language ancient words(even from Homeric greek) are still used regardless if its correct or false in modern greek . .
moreover the majority of greek words used today are composite words that come from ancient words. thats why greek can understand the meaning of a text writen in 400bce in a significant degree. In a way an italian could not possibly undertand latin of 400bce except from recognizing some words here and there.
In greek the more you read the more it makes you to use ancient greek form because it sounds better by far .
thats why people in Greece consider greek one and the same language and they are quite right . Its a very conservative language that does not take changes very well . its like they are used in parallel with out the grammar ofcourse
This is Plato for example
[327a] Κατέβην χθὲς εἰς Πειραιᾶ μετὰ Γλαύκωνος τοῦ Ἀρίστωνος προσευξόμενός τε τῇ θεῷ καὶ ἅμα τὴν ἑορτὴν βουλόμενος θεάσασθαι τίνα τρόπον ποιήσουσιν ἅτε νῦν πρῶτον ἄγοντες.
Modern :
Κατέβηκα χθες στον Πειραιά μαζί με τον Γλαύκωνα του Αρίστωνος, για να προσευχηθώ στη θεά και συγχρόνως γιατί θέλησα να δω τον τροπο που θα διεξαχθεί η εορτή, που για πρώτη φορά επρόκειτο να πανηγυρίσουν
We dont use the word "θεάσασθαι "In modern greek but we use dozen words that derive from that and you get the meaning.
θέα , θεαματικό , θέαμα , θεατής , θεα, θέατρο(theatre) etc
Όσα λέει ο Λούκιος είναι για το θεαθήναι! (the passive form, however, is in perfect use!) 😉
I experimented with ChatGPT and it translated some text into different ancient languages. If I copy and paste that translation in the same window, it translates back to English. But when I pasted that same translation in a new chat window, it gave me an entirely different translation that had nothing to do with the previous chat.
53 και 80; Where did it get that number from? "Four score and seven" is particularly hard to translate, as in many languages counting by twenties is normal (quatre-vingt-sept, nawpual chikume), and other languages don't have a way of counting by twenties.
Luke I enjoyed the video as always and appreciate the attention you give to the greek language. One thing i notice is I feel like you downplay the closeness of ancient Greek to modern Greek. While I agree once you get to Attic Greek they are different languages, I taught myself koine Greek from reading the New Testament, and when I first started I was able to read a bunch of the New Testament just from me being a modern Greek speaker. Modern Greek preserves the same case system as ancient Greek (other than the dative which everyone who speaks modern Greek already knows from phrases like "δόξα τω θεώ). Though I agree with you that modern Greek pronunciation is definitely not accurate to how ancient Greek was pronounced. Nut from a literaty standpoint they are quite similar.
Thanks for the comment. First, regarding dialect vs language, see this video:
ua-cam.com/video/zUlNhs8rJ_g/v-deo.html
We can, as many Greeks have insisted over the years, compare AG and MG with Latin and Italian, or Old English and Modern English, or any number of other language pairs where one is descended from the other. Greeks (ones who aren’t especially familiar with all of these languages) tend to harp that Greek is unique, because Modern Greek is uncommonly similar to Ancient Greek, whereas Italian, they opine, is very different from Latin, etc.
But when the languages are compared, the strong version of this argument is easy defeated. For every conservative feature of MG from AG, it lacks one that Italian retains from Latin. Modern Greek has a genitive case (sort of - it's more of the Balkanized dative/genitive thing that is found in the entire Sprachbund), while Italian lost the genitive case (it did have it in an earlier stage; my last name is one such example) hundreds of years ago; yet Modern Standard Greek has no infinitives (ἔχειν > να έχω), whereas Italian has retained the active present infinitive from Latin (amāre > amare).
Naturally, we’re talking about Modern Standard Greek which is fundamentally Dimotiki, but I think most Greeks most believe that Katharevousa is somehow valid in these comparisons. If they were to say that Modern Greek is Katharevousa -which indeed has been used in modern times - is very similar to Ancient Greek, then they would be quite correct, because Katharevousa *is* Ancient Greek fundamentally, with a few modernisms and small alterations, including a lot of shift in the meaning of vocabulary. For non-Greek Classicist who can read Ancient Greek, reading Katharevousa presents few problems because it’s virtually identical, especially the *grammar.* Modern Standard Greek, however, is just as opaque to the non-Greek Ancient Greek teacher as Italian is to a non-Italian Latin teacher: some things are recognizable, but *because they are different languages*, they require different training to be understood.
And this brings us to ask how me might define languages as being truly distinct one from another: is it vocabulary, or grammar, or pronunciation?
So many Ancient Greek words, thanks especially to the influence of Katharevousa, are indeed present in Modern Standard Greek. While a comparably large number of terms have been imported from Latin into Italian (and other Romance languages), I can easily agree that there are yet more on the Greek side of this question. Thus literate Greeks are often familiar with a number of Ancient Greek terms they might see in the Koine Bible or other Ancient Greek texts.
The problem there, however, is that these are actually false friends. So many terms that Greeks *think* they understand in Ancient Greek texts have very different meanings (the following are thanks to Dr. Alexandros Droseltis) :
aG: Ἄγγελος = messenger
mG: άγγελος = Angel
aG: κυβερνητική = the art of steering a ship
mG: κυβερνητική = cybernetics
aG: τὰ ἄλογα = the animals (which are speechless)
mG: τὰ ἄλογα = the horses
aG: πεῖρα = trial, attempt
mG: πείρα = experience
aG: πληγή = stroke
mG: πληγή = wound
aG: βασίλειον = palace; capital, royal treasury, tiara
mG: βασίλειο = kingdom
aG: ἐμπάθεια = strong passion
mG: εμπάθεια = hatred
aG: μαλακία = softness, moral weakness
mG: μαλακία = masturbation; stupidity
aG: φιλοσοφία = love of knowledge, systematic/scientific treatment of a subject, science
mG: φιλοσοφία = philosophy
aG: δουλεύω = I am a slave
mG: δουλεύω = I work
aG: παιδεύω = I bring (a child) up; educate
mG: παιδεύω = I torment (someone)
aG: φιλῶ = I love; I kiss
mG: φιλώ: I kiss
aG: αἰσχρός: ugly
mG: αισχρός: shameful
aG: θῡμός = soul, spirit; breath; desire; mind, temper
mG: θυμός = anger
aG: καταρράκτης = abrupt rain; waterfall; trapdoor; movable bridge
mG: καταρράκτης = waterfall
And some others still:
γαμέῶ / γαμώ
ὀμιλῶ / ομιλώ
μῆλον / μήλο
ἀναιρῶ / αναιρώ
ἀνίστημι / ανασταίνω
πολύπους / πολύπους
βάρβαρος / βάρβαρος
συνουσία / συνουσία
πάθος / πάθος
αἱσθάνομαι / αισθάνομαι
αστεῖος / αστείος
παιδεύω / παιδεύω
ἀμαρτάνω / αμαρτάνω
φεύγω / φεύγω
τὸ ἄκρον / το άκρο
κύβος / κύβος
κόσμος / κόσμος
φθάνω / φθάνω
So even though there is a lot of Ancient Greek vocabulary in Modern Greek, the false friends are incredibly high in number, and thus even the vocabulary leg of the “same language” argument is weak.
Any language can be defined by its grammar, vocabulary, and phonology. Looking at phonology, it’s apparent that Modern Greek pronunciation is much more different from that of Ancient Greek. This is easy if we go back to 5cBC Athens and use Classical Attic as the point of comparison, but even if we level the playing field and use 1cBC for both Latin and Ancient Greek, it’s quite apparent that Italian is more similar to Latin than Modern Greek phonology is to Ancient Greek; the most obvious is that Italian has retained geminated consonants while Modern Greek has not. Plus the vowels, consonants, etc.; for every change into Italian, there are as many into Modern Greek.
Ultimately, however, a language is most centrally defined by its fundamental grammar, and not vocabulary or even phonology. English has a vocabulary 60% (or more) derived from Latin, but English is *not* a Romance language, since it’s not vocabulary, but grammar - which is fundamentally Germanic in English - that forms a language’s core identity.
For all the similarities, Modern Greek and Ancient Greek are comparably different from each other as Italian and Latin. In addition to questions of culture and national identity, I conclude one of the main reasons that the two languages are conflated still today is that they bear the same name.
Thanks for the discussion.
That's my impression too. He downplays it significantly as if it's his mission or something. For instance, he mentions that in MG there are no infinitives (which is correct) and he uses that as a big criterion of differentiation between AG and MG. He omits, though, that in MG there are still cases (while in Italian they have been replaced by di, de la etc).
@@MarbledKing But he's also saying that Italian is a different language than Latin.
@@Philoglossos great, but the comparison is not valid.
@@MarbledKing Why not?
watching this, it has occurred to me, has anyone tried a newly created language (as in, one created by the tester) that it is not possible for the language model to pick up off the internet, to see if it has picked up enough general human language to interpret from the new language?
I don't think it's possible, but seems worth testing. translating to the new language seems impossible, since it will have no rules to work from.
I can't find such an attempt via google, and, of course, chatgpt has no cross-instance memory to be able to tell me if someone has tried it.
Luke, regarding the idea that the ancient and modern Greek are not the same language, I have to bring your attention to something that you may not have thought of. Many times one hears this statement, but I think it is because we Greeks have a different definition of what the word "language" means. It is broader than what the English, or other languages encapsulate. I too am of the mind that ancient and modern Greek are the same language: Different points in the line of the same language: The language is one, and indivisible. I may be wrong, but there is no term to describe that "line" that I just mentioned, while the "points" are described in English by the word "language". But this way we are missing a word for the "line". In Greek the word "language" encapsulates both meanings. I think maybe a reason for that is that we do have knowledge and access to the previous forms of our language. Since this is a rare privilege, most languages in the world have a more limited scope for the meaning of the word "language". I suspect some of the other very few nations with a continuous written heritage, like the Hebrew or the Persians (although they changed their alphabet) may have a similar view. As for the definition of language not in common parlance but in linguistics, those who happened to define this discipline happened to come from the aforementioned majority: The nations that didn't have the fortune to know the tongue of their lineage, therefore their definitions were handicapped and potted. But that is not our fault. Deny our language because theirs happen to be orphans? As for the comparison between Latin and Italian, it is my impression that the average Greek feels more connected to his ancient past than the average Italian, therefore making the idea that ancient and modern Greek are different languages not only semantically wrong (it restrains the meaning the word "language" has the Greek) but also offending (Evoking the thought: "How can someone say that when it is obvious?" since in our minds the word "language" is not as restricted as in English).
There's nothing wrong with your perspective (one that I don't disagree with and that I don't think Luke really disagrees with either) as long as it is applied consistently. All modern languages, with a handful of exceptions like Creoles, are direct descendents of older forms of the same language. Technically English, Russian, Greek, Hindi, etc. are all the same language since they all descend directly from one language spoken about 6,000 years ago.
@@Philoglossos true. The difference that I tried to point to is that those that belong to these languages and cultures dont feel these older permutations are theirs as strongly as we do, cause they don't know them. How to feel anything or have opinion on anything if you don't know it? Therefore the limits of the wold language do not include what cannot be included, as it does not even exist. The problem is that we have to use English to communicate, and therefore need to use the same English word (language) that has much more restrictive meaning in English. Instead of the conclusion that I challenge, another conclusion could be "ag and mg are the same language, and the definition of language in most languages is quite temporal and restrictive due to lack of a reality that forces it to stretch. Greek has this reality."
@@nikospapageorgiou2345 But plenty of Greeks don't actually know older forms of Greek - sure they may hear it in religious contexts and study it in schools, but that's no less true of Italians who all have to study Latin for several years. The difference is largely one of attitude. This different in attitude cannot be used to try to claim that the situation of the Greek *language* is unique. You could say that the Greek *attitude* towards Ancient Greek is fairly unique. You are still being inconsistent if you insist that Greek is one language from Mycenaean to modern, but Italian is a distinct language from Latin.
@@Philoglossos I never claimed that Italian is a different language from Latin, if one uses the broad definition of language. You are right about the attitude. That attitude is probably enforced by the fact that unlike other languages that belong in families, Greek has only one branch, and any variation is considered a dialect. For Latin, or the Germanic tongues, it is conceptually harder to claim the current forms are the same language as their previous permutations, as then one would also have to claim that all the current descendants are also the same language. Greek does not have this issue: No branches are considered to exist (I guess because Cyprus and Pontus never got to exist as states), only an unbroken line. Therefore I agree with you: it is a matter of perception, formed by a different material reality. In short, generally, one should avoid speaking with conviction about things they cannot experience themselves. I cannot claim to know what Americans truly are just because I saw a few movies. One cannot claim to know if ag and mg are the same language if the only living experience of language and nationhood they have is one that for them seems normal, but for others is relatively recent, and lacking depth. As one that swims in the Baltic (where I have emigrated) cannot really know and talk with me about what clean sea water is and swims there obliviously in the swamp. In short: Ones blind spots cannot become universal, just because they happened to be born blind.
@@nikospapageorgiou2345 Yeah that's fair. But if you read this video's comments there are people saying things like 'LaTiN DiEd iN tHe 6Th cEnTuRy' in order to claim that Greek is completely special and unique 🙃
I wish I could have a beard like you I always wanted to have this one xD
1:47 Actually it’s a bit of a yes and no. You see, Modern Greek also had smooth and hard breathings, which were only reflected in writing, as well as the acute accent and the circumflex. In 1982, the “polytonic” orthography was abolished, and only the acute accent remains.
Exactly, nor do I consider Katharevousa as part of Modern Standard Greek, and MSG is monotonic now.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Yet kathareuousa deeply influenced demotic Greek. I'm 45 years old (therefore I didn't live in actual kathareuousa times) and still find my self having the urge to write in kathreuousa style in formal papers for my job. Also most government papers and even private contracts still tend to use kathareuousa terms all over the place.
I don't really know when a language is epistemologicaly considered a different tongue, but since I can read and understand the New Testament in Koine Greek without having an ancient Greek education whatsoever, then it's the same language in my terms. Heck I was even watching videos of Pontic people talking their Greek dialect and understood most of it, over 80%. These isolated mountainous people in the Black sea region speak a hellenic dialect which dates way way back and they never had a contact with mainland Greece and all the linguistic changes of Greek since antiquity. Yet I understood them quite fine
Can you do a follow up video of GPT4 with Latin? I'm just a beginner but it still seems a lot better then chat GPT AKA GPT 3.5.
As far as I can tell there are no significant differences. I don’t believe this free version is technically v4.0
@@polyMATHY_Luke It's not. A GPT Plus account is required to access GPT-4. It's $20 a month.
@@polyMATHY_Luke I’m sorry, but you’re displaying some serious ignorance about how GPT works. You’re brushing aside the difference between 3.5 and 4 like it’s some random technicality that doesn’t matter. It is THE critical distinction.
3.5’s English skills are worse than 4’s ability in literally dozens of languages (4 is better in Icelandic than 3.5 is in English). 3.5’s ability in a rare language is so far below 4’s ability that it’s wild you don’t care about the distinction.
It would be like using a 2008 version of google translate instead of the 2023 version without mentioning which version you’re using. Same company, same service, but one is exponentially more powerful and capable than the other.
You should really test this using 4. 3.5’s abilities at this point mean nothing. 4 might be more accurate in Ancient Greek than 3.5 is in English. This isn’t a small gap in capability.
Ignoring this difference is like using the word ‘student’ to refer to both a middle schooler and a college junior. Yeah it’s true but it’s also actively confusing and misleading
To clarify, I don't know how 4 would do with ancient greek, it's possible there's so little source data it isn't great. Point is, these models are improving at exponential rates. It's necessary to keep track of exactly what AI you're talking about because their capabilities are extremely different depending on which one you're dealing with. Even if 4 is bad, in a couple months 4.5 might come out and fix some of those problems, and in a year 5 might be perfectly fluent. The point is just that discussing AI generally, or even ChatGPT generally, isn't precise enough to be useful when dealing with specific capabilities.
@@Actual_Malice he’s not gonna pay for the stupid subscription ❤
The Spartans meant to say "μολγῶν λαῦε" but the AI has to be taught a lot to be able to figure out such paraphrases🤣
Well, now I have a NEW thing to test ChatGPT with. 😅
What a fantastic video! The classics meets the (near) future.
Ive started learning ancient greek with the book Αλεξανδρος and chat gpt is my tutor 😂
You will be able to learn a lot! Just to note, both Alexandros and ChatGPT is rife with errors.
Great. Ihan vitun hyvä!
One of my first try on ChatGPT was "write me the first verse of the Odissey ik ancient Greek". It gave me the first verse of the Iliad, until I pointed it out. But It repeated the samr mistake for several days.
Yeah, it’s quick to apologize for making a mistake, but not capable of learning from them. It’s pretty irritating
1:00 ancient Greek didn't have the exclamation point. I don't think it had spaces either. That probably is confusing it!
Is Greek so difficult to conjugate verbs?
strange, i have Chat GPT regularly producing ancient greek texts for me, it even creates simple lessons. This said, I suspect the quality is not really there yet
If you tested ancient language vocal simulation, I guess it would be even more faultier.
After all, I can believe that Homer is an AI.
When it translated 'the word' in 'Logos' it makes more sense to say 'the Logos is God' than saying 'the Word is God' at least from a philosophical/theological perspective. In English the meaning of 'Logos' is very different from that of 'word'.
It highlights the difficulty of translating the meaning of a text instead of just the phrases and words literally.
Sure, but it gave the exact translation from most Bibles, so that’s pretty great.
@@polyMATHY_Luke yeah it's great nonetheless 😁
@@aokiaoki4238 I guess you could use it untranslared as a jargon loan word like some of the various hapax legomena in the letters of Paul.
Indeed the gospels are so heavily hellenic. It's very fun to study and compare the translations and idioms that work in Greek but not in Aramaic etc.
@@aokiaoki4238 hm interesting
You are a genius 😂 great video ideas 💡
Haha thanks, my brother!
@polyMATHY_Luke Have you checked out these attempts by AI to reproduce ancient languages?
ua-cam.com/video/Wc22W3bos64/v-deo.html
and part two: ua-cam.com/video/wC0UG-Oq_90/v-deo.html
Bizarre stuff, even comes with CGI models lip-syncing the parts! Part 1 has Latin at 0:54 and Ancient Greek at 4:56 of the video/ταινία.
I do believe the pitch accent of ancient greek never went away, it just became the stress accent; kind of like a flow in syntax so it isn't the word that has an accent but the whole sentence that rides the wave up and down. Or it's all some kind of mora/syllabic count for use in metric timing, like sheet music before the invention of sheet music, so it's less about an actual length in the vowels but padding them to fit within a scheme. Just some things I'm thinking about. Kind of like what I've heard that Egyptian Arabic can have long vowels become short while short vowels can get dropped entirely.
Do you think the long vowels were only there for mora/syllabic count when composing poetry/song? If long vowels existed, what if they were only slight and imperceptible to non-natives of the language? Or better yet, what if there were no such thing as long vowels, in ANY languages, but instead were exaggerated by some people in order to stand out in the crowd and then others imitated because that was the popular thing to do and it stuck? In that case, EEEvryone would wAAAntto emphasize in OOOrder to rEEEceive such benefIIIts. Or maybe elongating a vowel was an attempt towards clarity where an individual word didn't exist yet. And then languages evolved changing from Analytic to Synthetic to Agglutinative and back again in the great two-way, linguistic circle of life. I'm sure some long vowels came from a dropping of a consonant forcing two vowels together, and with some transitioning/borrowing-of-elements between the three types of languages (aka going through the Circle of Life), that means there is no beginning nor end to any language.
(I'm starting to lose myself here... It's really late. Again, just brainstorming here, not really educated in it.)
@@polyMATHY_Luke What if were letters like omega (Ω/ω) and ita (Η/η) were never about vowel lengths but for grammar like today (like Ω at the end of verbs for "i am doing such&such")? Does French with it's -eaux endings designate a specialized sound or another function (or both)? And if ancient writers said how some things were, what if they lied or were trolling? Or maybe they were telling the truth, but it was an isolated situation like that story in metatron's video about that grandmother living most of her life away from the village.
ua-cam.com/video/_puXHtQMmNU/v-deo.html
(Now that I think of it, I might just be unaccustomed to the notion of lengthening a vowel sound and have it carry added meaning)
Keep the good content. One question, is the pronunciation of the diphthong "οι"(in Ancient Greek) equivalent to the German diphthong "öü"?
In Ancient Greek? It's just like the German diphthong "eu"
Depends on the period. It starts as /oi/, then goes /øi/, /øy/, /y/ and finally /i/ in the middle ages.
Hi Karli. It changed throughout the centuries. In one of my reconstructions of Classical Roman era Ancient Greek, called the Samosatene Lucian Pronunciation, that is indeed how I pronounce it, as this preceded the next development (into /ȳ/ next).
You might want to consider trying the newer GPT-4 model. GPT-3.5 is nowhere near as capable.
You have to pay 😂
@@cosettapessa6417 Not necessarily. There are ways to trial GPT-4 for free.
@@pelmanism1084 so he should be told that
You seem to have an accent in Latin and Greek. I think it’s because you are too articulate for everyday speech. You might like your tongue get a bit sloppy. Having said that, you have a beautiful comforting masculine voice. I always enjoy it.
seme?!?! ni li toki pona ala :( taso sitelen tawa ni en toki Elena li epiku :)
toki, jan pi toki pona o!
@@obonyxiamseme a?!?!? lipu pi jan Polymathy la jan pi toki pona li lon a!! ni li epiku. jan o, sina epiku!
@@bundleaxe1922 sina epiku! jan ale pi toki pona li epiku tawa mi :D
@@obonyxiam lon
Quam belle pilus Gallicus
Greeks entertaining this notion (of greek staying the same language as centuries go by) is aided greatly by the fact that change has been extremely slow in it compared to most other languages.
I'll steal a Quora answer about what would Ancient Greeks think about the Modern Greek:
- … By the twin gods, Autolycus!
-What then, O Charaxus?
-Hear you what a curious speech it is, that this strangely dressed individual utters?
-It is indeed passing curious.
-Some words sound like words of our common Hellenic tongue.
-Indeed so, O Charaxus.
-Yet there is a harsh deficit of diphthongs in his speech.
-Much like a Boeotian. Someone should indeed tell them, that there are more than seven vowels in the language.
-And some awkward sibilants, where a Grecian would use stops.
-You have learned quickly the terms of the sophists, O Charaxus! Like unto a Laconian, methinks. Nē tō θiō.
-Yes, yes, instead of Nē tō tʰeō. “By the twin gods.” But forsooth, with many more horrid sounds.
-And such monotony of speech, O Charaxus!
-Indeed. Much like unto the rattle of some dull bird. No poise of long and short vowels, no tunefulness of speech. A mere monotonous alternation of loud and soft noises.
-What make you of this then?
-Were it not for the lack of long vowels, my good Autolycus, I would think this some peculiar Aeolism, some corrupt dialect of our storied tongue. Like unto Nick Nicholas's answer to During antiquity, did anyone in Greece or Rome recognize similarities between Greek and Latin languages and hypothesize relationships between them?
-A capital scholar, this Nicholas, grandson of Nicholas.
-I vouchsafe you, sir. Yet even those blockheads of Latium speak more tunefully than this.
-What then, O Charaxus?
-Mark you not, my good Autolycus, the lip hair on many of his number? That which we call mystax?
-Indeed I do, O Charaxus.
-And his breeches, worn in the stead of a decent chlamys?
-Very much so.
-This, and the corrupt Aeolisms that pass from his lips, the which remind one of Grecian words, yet are not truly Grecian. It is decided, Autolycus.
-Very much so, O Charaxus.
-This man is a Celt. A Gaul, I believe.
-May he to the crows! Es kórakas!
Spoken in perfect early 20th century English! This dialogue exists in ancient Greek too!
Thanks for the comment. There probably aren't any linguists outside of Greece that hold the opinion that MG and AG are the same language, because serious linguists recognise there is no clear definition of language, which I covered here:
ua-cam.com/video/zUlNhs8rJ_g/v-deo.html
We can, however, as many Greeks have insisted over the years, compare AG and MG with Latin and Italian, or Old English and Modern English, or any number of other language pairs where one is descended from the other. Greeks (ones who aren’t especially familiar with all of these languages) tend to harp that Greek is unique, because Modern Greek is uncommonly similar to Ancient Greek, whereas Italian, they opine, is very different from Latin, etc.
But when the languages are compared, the strong version of this argument is easy defeated. For every conservative feature of MG from AG, it lacks one that Italian retains from Latin. Modern Greek has a genitive case (sort of - it's more of the Balkanized dative/genitive thing that is found in the entire Sprachbund), while Italian lost the genitive case (it did have it in an earlier stage; my last name is one such example) hundreds of years ago; yet Modern Standard Greek has no infinitives (ἔχειν > να έχω), whereas Italian has retained the active present infinitive from Latin (amāre > amare).
Naturally, we’re talking about Modern Standard Greek which is fundamentally Dimotiki, but I think most Greeks most believe that Katharevousa is somehow valid in these comparisons. If they were to say that Modern Greek is Katharevousa -which indeed has been used in modern times - is very similar to Ancient Greek, then they would be quite correct, because Katharevousa *is* Ancient Greek fundamentally, with a few modernisms and small alterations, including a lot of shift in the meaning of vocabulary. For non-Greek Classicist who can read Ancient Greek, reading Katharevousa presents few problems because it’s virtually identical, especially the *grammar.* Modern Standard Greek, however, is just as opaque to the non-Greek Ancient Greek teacher as Italian is to a non-Italian Latin teacher: some things are recognizable, but *because they are different languages*, they require different training to be understood.
And this brings us to ask how me might define languages as being truly distinct one from another: is it vocabulary, or grammar, or pronunciation?
So many Ancient Greek words, thanks especially to the influence of Katharevousa, are indeed present in Modern Standard Greek. While a comparably large number of terms have been imported from Latin into Italian (and other Romance languages), I can easily agree that there are yet more on the Greek side of this question. Thus literate Greeks are often familiar with a number of Ancient Greek terms they might see in the Koine Bible or other Ancient Greek texts.
The problem there, however, is that these are actually false friends. So many terms that Greeks *think* they understand in Ancient Greek texts have very different meanings (the following are thanks to Dr. Alexandros Droseltis) :
aG: Ἄγγελος = messenger
mG: άγγελος = Angel
aG: κυβερνητική = the art of steering a ship
mG: κυβερνητική = cybernetics
aG: τὰ ἄλογα = the animals (which are speechless)
mG: τὰ ἄλογα = the horses
aG: πεῖρα = trial, attempt
mG: πείρα = experience
aG: πληγή = stroke
mG: πληγή = wound
aG: βασίλειον = palace; capital, royal treasury, tiara
mG: βασίλειο = kingdom
aG: ἐμπάθεια = strong passion
mG: εμπάθεια = hatred
aG: μαλακία = softness, moral weakness
mG: μαλακία = masturbation; stupidity
aG: φιλοσοφία = love of knowledge, systematic/scientific treatment of a subject, science
mG: φιλοσοφία = philosophy
aG: δουλεύω = I am a slave
mG: δουλεύω = I work
aG: παιδεύω = I bring (a child) up; educate
mG: παιδεύω = I torment (someone)
aG: φιλῶ = I love; I kiss
mG: φιλώ: I kiss
aG: αἰσχρός: ugly
mG: αισχρός: shameful
aG: θῡμός = soul, spirit; breath; desire; mind, temper
mG: θυμός = anger
aG: καταρράκτης = abrupt rain; waterfall; trapdoor; movable bridge
mG: καταρράκτης = waterfall
And some others still:
γαμέῶ / γαμώ
ὀμιλῶ / ομιλώ
μῆλον / μήλο
ἀναιρῶ / αναιρώ
ἀνίστημι / ανασταίνω
πολύπους / πολύπους
βάρβαρος / βάρβαρος
συνουσία / συνουσία
πάθος / πάθος
αἱσθάνομαι / αισθάνομαι
αστεῖος / αστείος
παιδεύω / παιδεύω
ἀμαρτάνω / αμαρτάνω
φεύγω / φεύγω
τὸ ἄκρον / το άκρο
κύβος / κύβος
κόσμος / κόσμος
φθάνω / φθάνω
So even though there is a lot of Ancient Greek vocabulary in Modern Greek, the false friends are incredibly high in number, and thus even the vocabulary leg of the “same language” argument is weak.
Any language can be defined by its grammar, vocabulary, and phonology. Looking at phonology, it’s apparent that Modern Greek pronunciation is much more different from that of Ancient Greek. This is easy if we go back to 5cBC Athens and use Classical Attic as the point of comparison, but even if we level the playing field and use 1cBC for both Latin and Ancient Greek, it’s quite apparent that Italian is more similar to Latin than Modern Greek phonology is to Ancient Greek; the most obvious is that Italian has retained geminated consonants while Modern Greek has not. Plus the vowels, consonants, etc.; for every change into Italian, there are as many into Modern Greek.
Ultimately, however, a language is most centrally defined by its fundamental grammar, and not vocabulary or even phonology. English has a vocabulary 60% (or more) derived from Latin, but English is *not* a Romance language, since it’s not vocabulary, but grammar - which is fundamentally Germanic in English - that forms a language’s core identity.
For all the similarities, Modern Greek and Ancient Greek are comparably different from each other as Italian and Latin. In addition to questions of culture and national identity, I conclude one of the main reasons that the two languages are conflated still today is that they bear the same name.
Thanks for the discussion.
Thank you for your extremely informative answer, Luke. I really admire your passion for Greek and Latin and I wish more people would share it. You certainly help with the easy and convenient manner you teach us; I really consider you one of the best teachers I ever had.
However, allow me to expand on passion. I agree, language is all this you said from a scientific point of view. But I believe that language is also a characteristic feature of a community. What has always struck me was that speakers of greek dialects always declare that they speak Greek; a dialect or an idiom, but always the greek language. Cypriots, Cretans, Pontics, even southern Italians declare that the idiom they use is part of the Greek language, synchronically and diachronically. That comes in contrast to speakers of e.g. romance languages who do not seem to think they are part of the same (Latin) linguistic community; Latin is seen just as a common ancestor. Greek is like Hebrew or Arabic. Hebrew is not a whole lot different from its ancestor language (for obvious reasons), but I do not think that its speakers will ever think they speak a different language even though it will change over time. Arabophones too see Arabic as a whole with many different forms, but always Arabic. In the case of these languages, the similarities and false friends you mentioned rather make stronger the sense of relatedness, no matter what the difference in sense. On the contrary, other languages (Scandinavian, former Yugoslavian) see these differences as things that separate them.
I am not a nationalist at heart, and I feel a terrible shame when I read some idiotic remarks by people who think that because their mother tongue happens to be Greek, they know better than people who have studied hard and passionately to gain a scientific knowledge of this beautiful language. I, on my part, am proud to have been raised as part of this community, but I understand that it's just luck on my part and there is no metaphysical privilege connected to it. Tibi iterum gratias plurimas ago, Lucie, et spero multos per annos cor meum tuis pelliculis educativis maxime delectari. (I hope this is correct)
I tried to speak with it about Latin grammar and pronunciation and it was absolutely terrible and full of mistakes
That's my kinda content.
Por fin has encontrado alguien con quien hablar en ancient greek and latin 🤣🤣
Luke, I had Dowling as a teacher and attended an event Miraglia held in Naples. I am grateful for the content you produce.
Have you covered the traditional English pronunciation of Latin? If not, please do - and without the ridicule both classicists and ecclesiastics tend to heap on it. I find it valuable (alongside ecclesiastical and restored) in teaching my sons both Latin and the history of English: it makes English's messy sound changes easier to track, connecting in an intuitive way English with both Germanic and Romances languages.
Are you aware of competent recordings in the traditional English pronunciation (ideally tracking with contemporaneous English vowel shifts) of the Latin verse of John Gower, George Buchanan, John Milton, Samuel Johnson, Anthony Alsop, etc.? If not, could you point me to someone else?
Hi Kevin, my friend Alex Foreman has done some: ua-cam.com/video/N848p11d0L8/v-deo.html
Thanks! Valē
So alexander the great was speaking koine ?
The very early version of it, as it's defined.
@@polyMATHY_Luke fascinating...
@@aokiaoki4238 koine is a Greek dialect - so it's Greek language
@@polyMATHY_Luke I would say that Alexander The Great was taught in Attic and communicated with his own in Attic. Attic was also used in Macedonia's royal court. I would put early Koine as the rising Lingua Franca AFTER his death which is the conventional start of the Hellenistic period.
@@kosmasgvl1615 Koine is not a Greek dialect. It's a stage in the evolution of the Greek language.
We still have 2 types of infinitive in modern greek grammar. Just saying.
To be clear: WHY do you want it to communicate in any language?
To have a language partner; it can be extremely beneficial to learn with writing:
ua-cam.com/video/S-g1dnN2WCM/v-deo.html
Having responsive feedback is extremely useful.
Why wouldn't you?
@@polyMATHY_Luke Having a responsive feedback is extremely useful for AI designers and masters.
It's quite useful in asking for finer definitions and nuances of certain words I have trouble with in Latin, like apud, igitur, causa, etc.
@@tylere.8436 But it has nothing that does not exist in a good dictionary and/or a grammar book. AI does not live in Ancient Rome. It "knows" only what other people put into it. You can't even be sure that other people don't contribute erroneous info. :)
Like with any other language, with Latin I would just read authentic texts and consult them, when uncertain about usage - which changed over time anyway.
I will certainly not feed the beast. After all, how vital is it for you to produce a "perfect" Latin text? How many native speakers are there :) to catch your errors?
Next time ancient egyptian lol
That would actually be pretty badass
I asked it to translate John 1:1 and it replied "Khuyu netjer ren neh nuter, reny netjer meru reni en netjer ren."
When I asked it to provide hieroglyphics, it replied with a broken imgur link. Then I asked it to use Unicode, and it replied with 𓆏𓈖𓇌𓂋𓇋 𓇉𓄿 𓋴𓇳𓂞 𓆣𓇌 𓋴𓏏𓂋 𓂋𓂧𓇋 𓇋𓄿𓆑 𓂋𓆣𓏏𓄿 𓏏𓂞𓇋, which even with my bare-bones hieroglyph reading skills does not match the previous response.
I cannot judge the quality of either response as a translation.
I don't agree with you that Latin and Italian are just as similar as Ancient Greek and Modern Greek. I won't comment on whether AG and MG are "the same language" since there's obviously no objective way to decide at what point a language has changed enough to be considered a different language. However, I do think that AG and MG are strikingly similar; καθαρεύουσα, which you acknowledged is essentially just Ancient Greek, has really had a profound impact on Standard Greek and has reintroduced tons of vocabulary and expressions from Ancient Greek back into colloquial use. It is fairly easy to compose a text in which pretty much every single form is common and has the same meaning in both Modern and Ancient Greek. Here is such a text that I have come across:
Ο περίπατος κατά τα όρη ενέχει πολλούς κινδύνους. Οι άνθρωποι, και άνδρες και γυναίκες, φοβούνται τα μεγάλα ζώα και μάλιστα τους λύκους. Όταν πλησιάζει λύκος φοβερός, εγώ πάντοτε τρέμω. "Πολλούς κινδύνους έχει το όρος," έλεγε η αδελφή μου ενώ έβλεπε τα πρόβατα. Εγώ τα πρόβατα αποφεύγω, αλλά πίνω το γάλα των προβάτων. Τους δε βατράχους και εν μέρει τα ερπετά σφόδρα μισώ. Αλλά φλυαρώ! Τι συνέβη εκεί; Πέρυσι δύο φίλους μου έφαγε λύκος τερατώδης, και έπειτα η αδελφή μου διέφυγε εν ριπή οφθαλμού. Εγώ πιστεύω ότι με έσωσε τότε ο παντοδύναμος θεός. Ο μύθος διδάσκει ότι συνήθως ο άνθρωπος εξασθενεί δια του φόβου.
I don't really know Italian, so I could be wrong, but I don't think it's possible to do something like this with Italian and Latin. Of course Italian is conservative in some ways that MG isn't, but I doubt it has the same number of archaisms as Modern Greek, especially considered how much material from Ancient Greek has been reintroduced into the modern language via καθαρεύουσα.
Italian is full of latinisms that, while penetrating into speech to varying degrees, are understood by everyone regardless. I've translated the above paragraph (which, let's keep in mind, was especially written to show the similarities between AG and MG) into Italian:
Ambulare per le montagne provoca molti pericoli. Gli uomini, sia maschi che femmine, temono gli grandi animali, massime i lupi. Quando accede un terribile lupo, io tremo sempre. "La montagna ha molti pericoli", diceva mia sorella quando osservava le pecore. Evito le pecore, ma bevo latte di pecora. E abborro le rane e in parte i rettili. Non voglio digredire! L'anno priore due miei amici erano divorati da un lupo mostruoso, e poi mia sorella fuggì in un batter d'occhio. Credo che il dio onnipotente mi abbia salvato allora. Il mito indica che di solito l'uomo è debilitato dal timore.
This can be rendered into certainly not good or strictly classical, but perfectly comprehensible Latin:
Ambulare per montes provocat multa pericula. Homines, sive masculi sive feminae, timent grandia animalia, maxime lupos. Quando accedit terribilis lupus, ego tremo semper. "Mons habet multa pericula!" dicebat mea soror quando observabat pecora. Evito pecora, sed bibo lac pecorum. Et abhorreo ranas et in parte reptilia! Nolo digredi! Anno priore duo mei amici erant devorati a lupo monstruoso, et postea mea soror fugit in ictu oculi. Credo deum omnipotetem me salvasse illa hora. Mythus indicat quod solitus est homo debilitari timore.
@@Philoglossos You kind of just demonstrated my point. I can understand the Latin text you wrote just fine since I know Latin, but the Italian version isn't totally comprehensible to me. The Greek text would be perfectly comprehensible to anyone who knows either Modern or Ancient Greek.
@@evancolby2274 My guess is that the contributing factor in this case is word shape and spelling - modern Greek preserves final -s (and ancient Greek had already lost other final consonants besides n) and doesn't change the spelling for the overwhelming majority of its vowel shifts, while Italian despite having undergone fewer vowel shifts respells all of them, and it also loses final -s, -m and -t. And of course you further reverse some of the gap by using strictly katharevousa forms like δια.
I can just write the Italian text but using Latin spelling as a sort of Latin katharevousa:
Ambulare per illos montes provocat multa pericula. Illi homines, sit masculi sit feminae, timent illa grandia animalia, maxime illos lupos. Quando accedit terribilis lupus, ego tremo semper. "Ille mons habet multa pericula!" dicebat mea soror quando observabat illa pecora. Evito illa pecora, magis bibo lac de pecore. Et abhorreo illas ranas et in parte illa reptilia! Non volo digredire! Anno priore duo mei amici erant devorati a uno lupo monstruoso, et post mea soror fugit in uno battuere de oculo. Credo quod deus omnipotens me habeat salvatum ad illam horam. Ille mythus indicat quod de solito ille homo est debilitatus ab illo timore.
No Italian and no Latin speaker would struggle to understand this. I think this shows pretty clearly how much this is the result of katharevousa and etymological spelling, rather than a greater conservativeness of the spoken languages.
@@Philoglossos Yes, it is true that some of Modern Greek's conservatism is strictly orthographic, but even discounting that I think it would be hard to argue that it isn't more morphologically conservative than Italian too. Your Latin katharevousa version of the text wasn't really just Italian with different spelling conventions; you had to add in different case endings and change the gender of some things.
Are you Greek? Luke believes this is only a "Greek belief". In reality, it's a common observation by anyone who bothered to be exposed to both Ancient and Modern Greek and then to Latin and Italian.
Modern Greek is the same language with ancient Greek. Yes we still use infinitives but not so commonly as the ancient Greek.
"Italian and Latin are the same language as ancient with modern Greek"😂😂😂 that's why Latin had 6 cases and Italian has 1
Like I said in the video, this notion is so often taught in Greece that you accept it without giving it serious investigative thought. Modern Greek has retained the vocative, nominative, accusative, and a single case of mixed genitive/dative, but so has Romanian, and Old Italian had the same. Meanwhile, Italian has retained the third declension both in nouns and adjectives (cane < canis, forte < fortis; while Modern Greek doesn’t happen to use the ancient equivalents (κύων, ἰσχῡρός) for these terms at all, where the terms are σκύλος and δυνατός), whereas Modern Greek has completely eliminated the third declension: άντρας for example from ἀνήρ ἀνδρός; the accusative of the Ancient Greek third declension noun has been taken and a -ς has been added, making it a first declension noun.
For every attempt to point at a less conservative feature in Italian and a more conservative feature in Modern Greek, I can show you an equally innovative feature in Modern Greek that shows it’s dramatic distance from the ancient language.
Examine this closely. Do it statistically. Then come back and we’ll talk.
@@polyMATHY_Luke do you really know modern Greek the equivalent of AG ισχυρός in MG is also ισχυρός,
The σκύλος came from AG σκύλαξ(young dog) and the κύων survives in MG in composite words like κυνοκέφαλος or κυνηγάω or phrases like "κυνός σήμα" or "το άστο του κυνός" (the star Sirius)
@@marios_xyntas φιλε μου, δεν μπορείς να πεις ότι τα αρχαία ελληνικά είναι ξεχωριστή γλώσσα από τα νέα, ειδικά μάλιστα όταν μιλάμε για την κοινή ελληνιστική. Και ο λόγος δεν είναι μόνο ότι ομοιάζουν εξαιρετικά, αλλά και ότι απο τα αρχαία ελληνικά έχουνε δώσει μόνο μία απόγονο γλώσσα την νέα ελληνική, εν αντιθέσει με τη λατινική όπου έδωσε τις: ισπανική, γαλλική, ιταλική και ρουμανική γλώσσα. Ναι, δεν μπορείς να πεις ότι είναι ίδια με την μυκηναϊκή, ενδεχομένως και με την ομηρική αλλα σε καμία περίπτωση δεν μπορείς να το ισχυριστείς αυτό για την κοινή, και ο λόγος που τα νέα ελληνικά μοιάζουν τόσο πολύ εδω και 2000 χρόνια δεν είναι μόνο η επίδραση της καθαρεύουσας πού νομίζουν πολυ, αλλα και οτι η εκκλησία συνέχισε να εχει σε χρήση την κοινή όλο αυτό το διάστημα (ανεξαρτήτως πιστεύω), έτσι ακόμα και ο τελευταίος αγράμματος χωρικός συνέχιζε να ακούει και να λεει αρχαία ελληνικά.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Since when "ισχυρός" is out of use in Modern Greek? It is being used perfectly well. For example: you might see it in newspapers and political discourse like that: Ο ισχυρός άνδρας του Επιχειρείν (here is your infinitive by the way) or Οικοδομούμε ισχυρή οικονομία. I could do this until tomorrow, but you get the point.
@@polyMATHY_Luke c'mon man I use the word ισχυρος all the time in MG. And of course the word κυων is used in composite words or nouns in MG , like κυνομαχια, κυνικος, κυνηγι, κυνοδοντας and so on
What is αρετή,?
Google translate says : virtuous
GPT-4 is much better with ancient greek, but it's behind a paywall.
Good to hear
I’ve been speaking Greek these past three-and-a-half millennia: it’s always been the same language.
Just wait what it can do when Neuralink connects, and its possible to read everyones memories.
Ancient Greek and Greek have basically the same Alphabet
No Brainer
So do Italian and Latin. And English and Latin.
@@polyMATHY_Luke And Icelandic and Latin.
You view our language from a barbaric (non Greek) perspective. Granted there are differences as the language has evolved, but unless you live and speak with intelligent Greeks, you will never realize how closely related the ancient and modern versions of our language are. As for the Infinitive, it may not be officially taught in schools, as the leftist governmental policy has been methodically abolishing any archaisms that survived in school books, but it is used quite often by native speakers of Greek, in sentences like «Το έχειν δεν χαρακτηρίζει τον πλούσιο, όπως το θεαθείναι δεν χαρακτηρίζει τον σοφό». Young people use phrases like Εις το επανιδείν to mean see you later, etc. Educated Greeks use the infinitive frequently and it is easily understood by the lay person.
Even words like νερό instead of water have directly evolved from Ancient Greek roots, such as νεαρόν ύδωρ = fresh water, ψάρι, instead of ιχθύς, from οψάριον (evening meal which was usually fish).
The discerning mind will see all the connections, whilst those with cultural chips on their shoulders, who delude themselves thinking they enjoy greater affinity with the glory of Greece by proxy through the study of its ancient language form either do not bother to make the connection or willingly turn a blind eye.
Only an intelligent modern Greek speaker has semantic access to Ancient Greek rooted words borrowed by all other European languages, because all their derivatives function within modern Greek.
The situation you are describing is no different for numerous other pairs of ancient and modern languages. Italians with Latin, Islanders with Old Norse, Bulgarians with Old Church Slavonic have the exact same experience. It’s a beautiful experience, but it is not unique to Greeks.
Thus it behooves Greeks such as yourself to learn more about these other languages, otherwise you come off as exceedingly isolated to everyone else. Prove them wrong.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Αυτοχριζόμενε "πολυμαθέστατε" Λουκά, σφάλλεις και πλανάσαι οικτρώς εν τηι προσπάθειά σου όπως πείσης εαυτόν ότι η σύγχρονη Ελληνική απέχει από την αρχαία της εκφορά λόγου αντιπαραθέτοντας άλλες γλώσσες των οποίων η γραφή προέκυψε μόλις προ μερικών εκατονταετιών εν σχέσει με την τρισχιλιετή γραφή των Ελλήνων. Συγκρίνεις γλώσσες οι οποίες ουδαμώς θα λειτουργούσαν ως πολιτισμένες εν τωι συγχρόνωι βίωι άνευ των μυρίων αρχαίων Ελληνικών λημμάτων άτινα διείσδυσαν εις αυτές κατά τον εκπολιτισμόν αυτών.
That said, the experience is unique to intelligent Greeks in that although all European languages use this ancient Greek diction, only a modern Greek still has access to its ancient semantic particles that can evolve and perpetuate the language in its modern form. This is why it is false for you to say that Modern Greek has brought ancient Greek words into it. These words have always existed as the archaic particles that formed them branch out in multiple formations. Although I can give you an endless list of examples, I think a few will suffice to make my point. For instance, as you probably know, the internationally borrowed word "School" stems from σχόλη =. leisure (as leisure time was mainly dedicated to learning). Only through modern Greek can one find its original expression, as we say σχολάω = Ι stop work, ασχολούμαι = I keep myself busy with (due to the negational "α"), ενασχόληση = occupation, σχολαστικός = meticulous (as only one that has plenty of free time can focus on a task in great detail), etc.
Your list of "false friends" provided by Dr. Alexandros Droseltis is also false in that the derivatives of these false friends are still used today to convey the original archaic (αρχικόν) meaning. Κυβερνήτης is still used to mean the one who captains/steers a ship, πείρα is used in derivatives πειράθηκα, αποπειράθηκα, πειραματίζομαι, εμπειρία, άπειρον, etc. Even the word for "fork" = πιρούνι < περόνη < πείρω attests to the continuity of this living language. As for "καταρράκτης" meaning sudden rain in ancient Greek, whereas in MG it means "waterfall", remind Mr Droselitis, that we still use the word to mean "sudden rain" when we say "ξέσπασε καταρρακτώδης βροχή" or "βρέχει καταρρακτωδώς". Every word on the list of false friends finds true friends throughout the modern Greek language in other contexts. And many have assumed metaphorical meanings, such as πληγή = wound (a consequence of a "stroke") derivative of the verb πλήσσω/ πλήττω which abounds literally and metaphorically in modern Greek derivatives such as εκπλήττομαι = I am surprise stricken, πλήξη = struck by boredom, επιπλήττω = reprimand, etc.
Φίλτατε Λουκά, ancient Greek is more than alive and kicking within modern Greek the way that no other European language can boast like continuity. No other European language has such a semantic derivative affinity with its ancient form, as no other European can understand his/her language written a few hundred years ago the way a Greek school boy can understand the written Koine Greek of two thousand years ago. Greek is the only surviving "classical" tongue in Europe, albeit seemingly unintelligible to one acquainted only with the foreign approach to the study of ancient Greek.
As for your closing statement, "Thus it behooves Greeks such as yourself to learn more about these other languages (Italians with Latin, Islanders with Old Norse, Bulgarians with Old Church Slavonic), otherwise you come off as exceedingly isolated to everyone else. Prove them wrong" it is ridiculously irrelevant to the point I am making in contesting your ignorant claim that ancient and modern Greek are two different languages.
It would behoove you, therefore, to acknowledge that modern Greek is simply an evolved form of the same language with an uncanny ability to reproduce itself and form new words from its own sources, and that it is the same language because its vocabulary cannot function without its original ancient morphemes.
Dr David Crystal inspired this: ua-cam.com/video/-BvKpk7SUrQ/v-deo.html
ΦΙΛΕ ΜΟΥ ΔΙΑΚΡΙΝΩ ΕΝΑΝ ΕΡΩΤΑ ΜΕ ΤΗΝ ΑΡΧΑΙΑ ΕΛΛΑΔΑ...ΘΕΛΩ ΝΑ ΜΟΥ ΠΕΙΣ ΤΗΝ ΓΝΩΜΗ ΣΟΥ ΣΕ ΕΝΑ ΕΡΩΤΗΜΑ ΠΟΥ ΘΑ ΣΟΥ ΘΕΣΩ.ΠΟΙΕΣ ΘΑ ΗΤΑΝ ΟΙ ΣΥΝΕΠΕΙΕΣ ΣΤΗΝ ΙΣΤΟΡΙΑ ΤΗΣ ΕΥΡΩΠΗΣ,ΕΑΝ ΔΕΝ ΥΠΗΡΧΑΝ ΠΟΤΕ ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ ΣΤΟΝ ΠΛΑΝΗΤΗ??