I Full Rapid CRASHED Our HELLER CP6000
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- Опубліковано 25 лип 2024
- Barry crashes our BEAST Heller CP6000 and the machine does not skip a beat!
0:00 Heller CP6000 Crash
0:38 Machining Continues
0:55 Titan in Germany
1:10 Kinematic Check
1:17 Drilling on the Heller CP6000
1:24 Drill Damage
2:12 Buy These Tools on our Store
2:20 What Happens to Most Machines
2:45 Why Choose Heller Machines
3:39 CNC Machine Fails
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#Machining #Machinist #Engineering - Наука та технологія
Why did it crash?
He ran the entire part above (dry ran)… except for the drill because it was to long. Then he just made a simple error in the program when editing… and then didn’t pause the tool as it approached the material… to double check that it was positioned correctly.
Simple mistake that won’t happen again.
Hey, it shows it can happen to anyone at any time. Just take steps to mitigate the risk to the best of your ability.
Looking at it in slow-mo, was the drill spinning the wrong way?
Haha no, it wasnt spinning the wrong way. But it sure looks like it. Im guessing that shot was mirrored in editing or something like that
Because the part was in the way.
If a machinist ever tells you that they've never crashed a machine they're a liar.
I’ve done it twice in sixteen years.
I’ve never crashed one yet… (I’m only 17 only machining I’ve done is on manual machines and only cnc is a small amount of laser cutting and a fair bit of 3d printing
💯
people in my shop crash all the time the job refuses to update our setup sheets i always tell the guys empty out every tool and if the wrong tool comes out nothing will crash cuz the pocket is empty.
When I was fresh in the trade I came from using a manual lathe which counts DOC in diametric value, then went to a CNC lathe and was about to do an internal bar cycle. I typed in 4 mm into the DOC row in the program and thought nothing about it. When the cycle started on the boring bar the whole tool just exploded on contact and the machine emergency stop kicked in. That's when I learned that CNC lathes counts DOC in radial units 😅🤷♂
I'd like to see the kinematics tests.
The crashed looked staged.
A few years ago we had a bad crash on a big $1.5mil machine. It didn't feel bad at first but the spindle repair bill was around $30k and about a month of downtime.
for a 1.5M machine that sounds pretty cheap for a spindle repair
cheap ass haas's wanted over 10k for ours
@@derekschommer1465 Well it´s not cheap but compared to other brands HAAS is one of the cheapest on repairs. The company I work for had to replace the spindle on our HAAS VF4 after I destroyed it. I had the machine going while I was getting some more material and when I came back to the machine the tool had been bent out of the spindle, but the machine had not turned off the spindle so it was still spinning which ended up destorying the bottom of the spindle and the bearings. It cost us around $7500 for the repair.
I run an old Makino and the computer board needed replaced….was like $18,000 I was blown away, I don’t see how small machine shops can afford that.
@@greeneyesfromohio4103 eBay and skill, inherent or borrowed (practical machinist), if you think about it, there was probably only one component, or chain of components, on that board that needed replacing. I've had to add an emotional support capacitor to one machine that started acting up, clipped the wire going to a motor overload thermister on another. for me that $18,000 would be spent on 3 replacement CAT 50 machines and rigging.
Just did the same thing with a 1.375" Sumitomo WDX drill in a Hyundai Wia 650. I was absolutely amazed that only the inserts broke! In my accidental attempt to rapid 11 inches below the top of my part, I made a really cool .5" thick octopus tentacle looking chip. Cool suff!
Barry ,did a sonic Boom!
Emergency crash detection instantsneous stopping. I wish I had that on ones I use. A bit of piece of mind.
Intresting, I would like to still see the spindle test bar results, and bearing preload before and after that.
Totaly, I won't belive every word people say to the camera 🤔
@@aktik6000 yeah, it is also an axial crash, if it were a radial collision, the machine would be damaged thats for sure, it's unsurprising the axes haven't moved with that type of collision. Not dissing heller, I love them, just saying that's all 😂
@@HoofHearted314😂😂😂newly formed😂😂😂 best comment!
These guys should really be showing you how to not crash the machine
ya just because the kinematics check out doesn't mean the machine is ok. We had a crash on a machine 10 years ago and is took a few years before all kinds of gremlins started showing up, but they did.
One of my favourite sayings,
"If it ain't broke, try harder!"
I'm the kind of guy who sale reps hate because if they tell me a tool runs at X, that tool is being tested FIRST TIME at X. No messing around 😂
Like me, because I go full throttle on a rebuilt engine on the first test drive. Gotta set the piston rings.
It is awesome you guys made this into a video. The fact that machine was just fine still blows my mind
Machine is built to stall and alarm up, that was not a real crash.
Lol if you think they didnt do it on purpose 😂
I can personally assure all of you, that this was 100% a result of me cancelling my tool length offset. Maybe stupid, but sorry im not perfect. We were collectively impressed that the machine kept trucking, so decided to share it.
@@barrysetzer hey, just to keep up hows the heller doing from the video? did the spindle have to get replaced already or are you guys still waiting for it to fail?
@@barrysetzer that's actually an incredible feat indeed, I've never seen a machine just shrug off such a hit before.
Those kind of crashes are usually followed by - “Well, what had happened was… “, lol! I won’t even say that Heller is an awesome piece of equipment- that’s a work of art! Good stuff!
Hahaha that was when i went to tell Titan about it 😂
As a Hermle operator, the worst message is "Replace spindle head". Then you know that the day is over.
I've had a couple of crashes, but nothing like that. Having rigid setups is probably the most beneficial. I do a lot of weldment machining and trying to get a rigid setup on some of those parts can be a nightmare when you have several surfaces to machine and often a few in one setup.
So eh Barry? What was the chipload on that initial plunge? 4” per tooth? 😅
Bwahahaha fave comment
If the 3,500 IPM he stated is correct, that should have been 5.1852" IPR & 2.5926" per tooth at the 675 rpm shown at 0:55
(Looks like a 2 flute drill to me)
Probably just a little over what the manufacturer recommends! 😆
Years (decades) ago we had an old 60's era NC (Not CNC) mill that was built like an Army tank. They installed it a little too close to a heavy steel door leading into the shop. One day the machinist left the door open and ran the table into it. It crushed the door but the machine didn't seem to be impressed by it.
That Heller mill took that crash like a champ. What an amazing machine, not only was it able to protect itself, but recover so quickly as nothing happened. Thanks for showing us what these machines are capable of.
Who left Barry unsupervised in the shop.
Fire that guy.
Yeah they should have known better 😂
It was part of the show...
Very fun vid, thanks!
From the ultra-precision side (SPDT), a crash usually meant a $1500 diamond tool just went bye bye. On my optical generators (fancy 5 axis machines), a crash usually just meant referencing the axes as the fast traverses just weren't all that fast. But everything would be off a few microns or a few thou deg. Usually the optical blank went bye bye.
Safety is paramount. I need to make it a habit to always check before work. I am especially careful when working with large workpieces on large lathes.
agreed, its easy to become complacent/comfortable and make mistakes. Its especially bad around these potentially deadly machines
See I love that this is a video. Seeing a top tier guy like Barry crash makes it feel real. Everybody makes mistakes, it’s what you learn from them that separates you from everyone else.
I have the same feature on my 30 year old Okuma. Its just built so damn tough it can take full rapid crashes. After a crash, I put a piece of wood between the turret and ram the machine in the opposite direction to straighten it out. Dial it in and back to machining again.
That's probably the best sales video for heller I have ever seen. The biggest fear I have in purchasing a large mill like that would be the inevitable crash. Good to see they have some form of remediation to avoid major damage.
they can't have that fast of a reaction to prevent damage, at least with bearings its pretty much impossible. The Microdent that was made inside the bearing rings / the deformation in the bearing balls means that the service life of those bearings is like 100th of their normal service life. Especially with the impact vector that happened here. My Professor in CNC machining (developed and built cnc 3/5 axis machines in germany for 30 years) said that these crashes happen, but if its a bad one (like in the video), you won't notice it in the first few hours, thinking the machine didn't get hurt. Like a month later, you need to have the spindle serviced, because it won't run properly anymore. Nobody thinks about the crash because noone reports it (at least most of the time) and so the connection between the two is never noticed. Every time you fullrun your spindle directly into the a part with maximum velocity, he said you can schedule a service like a month in the future from that crash. Of course this can be a crash that wasn't that bad, in perspective to the bearing size, but it 100% decreased the service life of the axial load bearings.
@@maxcimander188I’m sorry, but you’re wrong, this is new technology , every machine has a maximum axial load for machining, your Z axis load, on newer machines even some haas, it’s called crash prevention, you can set a maximum load to alarm the machine out to prevent damage, let’s say the machine takes damage at around 180% z axis load, you can set the machine to come to a dead stop at 100%, this is very common now on most machines.
yes it is very likely indeed@@maxcimander188
Barry, when Heller says its full stop they weren't kidding. I've never seen a machine crash be it lathe or CNC but that was impressive response.
Nice. When our okumas lathes crash they almost need a full rebuild. Multus was crashed and took 2 weeks from tech to pull everything out and back in.
Wish they had better quick stop
As a design engineer for heavy duty CNC machines I’m really impressed. To be more precise:
A) about your honesty - makes you very trustworthy
B) about the durability of this machine. To have almost no crash- impact, although the machine is equipped with a swivel-head. … WOW
Similar thing happened to me on Hurco on 100% rapid rate. I was lucky after 1 year it still runs as before crash :)
I have a DMU Evo 60 , I did what you did too a few times, the machine protection controls stops it in miliseconds. No damage at all , runs as new.
And this is why I always have my finger over the feed hold button whenever I'm working with new Gcode. There are so many steps along the way where you can screw up.
this hits close to home, i crashed our 5-axis Leadwell last week, first checks showed the trunion table a bit off, but we still have to call the service techs to come and check it properly... right now its working with around 0,05° offset on A-axis... But hey, before the crash the spindle runout was at 15 microns on 300mm test bar, now its at 5 microns...
Lol so you literally fixed the runout xD
@@Andriu_FPV seems like it, but i think i can feel some vibrations from the machine when the spindle is running, maybe it was like that even before my crash, but now i cant really tell...
For us fans who will likely never darken the inside of a machine shop, please do an AAR (after action report used after a disaster recovery incident) video to discuss in detail what caused this crash. Even though you didn't hurt the machine or the part, that crash was still scary due to the forces involved.
When I did this to a Heidenhein the ceramic bearing of the spindle had to be switched out….
Did set Z0 below the part.
Gotta get some more crash videos! Love it
I crashed a very large bridge mill in the same fashion. Had to change out some 1/4 20 screws and was as good as new. Tough old machine had a fail-safe.
... It happens to all of us😉 so many things to think off, and sometimes it is 💩.
Back in the saddle and go 😊
Booom - Silens - ohhhh - you got me I know this feelings 😂👍
3:40 what the hell is that clamping hahaha :D
As a self-taught and still a total noob to the field of machining I appreciate seeing the crashes. Makes me feel less stupid 😅
Solid!
Top KEK!
Peace be with you.
Помню как в начале пути уебал DMC60H аналогичным способом - сверло 35 прилетело на ускоренной подаче в деталь. Станок не пострадал, немного сместило угольник, к которому крепилась деталь, а вот сверло знатно перекосоёбило. Но с помощью трубы оно было выставлено по биению до пяти соток, и продолжило работать после замены пластины. Не ошибается тот, кто ничего не делает. Удачи, с наилучшими пожеланиями)
Ahh yes, the old, "rapid to crunch" Had it happen once on a Warner Swaysey 2SCL. Makes you mad enough to spit.
Did this on small scale last week with a Harvey end mill into my vice. The end mill is okay. The vice has a hole in it now 😭😂
Its for coolant evacuation 😂
I was taught to use single block with reduced rapid speed for the first time running a program. Saved my butt several times as a result. I was at another shop running Lathes and the shop foreman asked me to run a mill job one night. He loaded the program and assumed that everything was ok and hit the green button. All hell broke loose. There was another fixture on the table and it hit so bad that the machine was knocked off its mounting pads, Broke the spindle and messed up the gear box. Cost was $9K to repair and he tried to blame it on me. I was clear across the shop and heard the building shudder and thought that's going to be expensive. The owner came up to me and asked who did it. He knew who did it but asked to confirm it, makes your you know what pucker up a tad!!
my worst crash was sending a 3/4 mill about 3" long into the side of my 4th axis. Thankfully it just destroyed my soft jaws before the end mill snapped. Didnt enjoy replacing that $250 cutter though.
My 1st day running a horizontal mill, i entered the wrong g code on a b axis movement and sent a 2.5" carbide drill rapid travel into the side of the part and broke a bunch of stuff. Needless to say that was my last time ever running a cnc machine.
I accidently crashed one of our gantry routers a few days ago. I spent about 20 minutes squaring the gantry, but I didn't know that another tech had overrode the soft limits. A tool change attempt led to a gentle knock, and then I had to square it up and resync the motors all over again....
Thanks for showing your crashes
This is a really cool video, and shows that something like this can happen to everyone,
so please be careful guy's 🙂
I wish you showed how you checked it out. I'm trying to convince my boss to standardize this.
Maybe we will do a video on it!
@@barrysetzer YES PLEASE! i think that would have been the most interesting part of the video! everyone knows how to crash.... not everyone knows how to check all required checks, after the crash.
Die Kontrolle zu zeigen ist schon wichtig. Ist das Teil nur für Showzwecke oder muss es verkauft werden. Bei Kundenteil geht es ja so weiter. Teil abspannen, Maschine kontrollieren, Teil aufspannen, wieder ausrichten, Neu starten. Das zu sehen wäre für mich interessant. Gekräscht hat schon ein jeder CNC Bediener.
Smashed up my first machine this week, a year into my CNC career about £30,000 so far and counting
I work with mazak machines and I have also had some strong blows in G0, the truth is that they have all withstood without the slightest problem or misalignment, the horizontal machines from my experience are much more robust, the heller tool change seems quite enough to me slow I have noticed that it changes tools slowly my mazak with double contact bt40 changes tools in less than 3 seconds iit's scary
agreed, mazak tool changes are insane! you use gcode or mazatrol??
thats a hsk 100 though,heavier tools
WOW! That is crazy!
Welp, the machine responded great to the crash. Barry you showed us Hammer Time
Hahaha, i love that they threw a few of my other crashes at the end. Thanks editor!
@@barrysetzer hahaha you knew they were gunna. When they got it on cam you know their gunna use eventually. Keep up the great work and stay safe
hmm feedback loop is so fast. How did exactly they make it ? some very close to each other placed sensors and servo logic device with analog trickery like PLL?
Barryyyyyyyyyyyy, instead of me saying " yaassssssss" now I'm yelling.... "Nooooooooooooooo"
Hahaha oops!
Thank you. 👍💙😎
There was one time at my last job where a guy crashed a DMG mori at 100% rapid with a 4in face mill in the spindle. It was a horizontal so the pallet was tilted way back and the spindle was cracked all the way down the side and was melted on the inside. It ended up costing the company $50,000 to fix because it messed up multiple axis the spindle had to be completely rebuilt and the glass was completely shattered
Jeeeez thats brutal!
@@barrysetzer yeah! I was standing right next to the machine. The feeling of the ground shaking was insane! The guy was doing a setup for production parts and he turned block delete on and it was programmed wrong and had the wrong pallet in and bam!
Да,это лучшее видео из всех последних!
Okay the 12 milion lines of code made me crack. :D
I am in machinist school and programs longer than 5-6k lines are impossible. And you wanna do 12 milion with such enthusiasm . I love it
Ayo what happend ? Nah just crashed the heller again.. still nothing ? Nah still straight ! Love it
Keep on truckin' :))
I've hade 2 serious crashed. The first one i did what i was told dispite i didn't like the idea.. but i was in the beginning of my career so i obeyed. Almost lost my life.. the second one totally my fault, full speed bouth axis with a 52 mm drill from -20 mm inside hole out to tool change position. After that i did some changes in my rutins and never jump over a step.. sins then I've hade a blast.
Excuse my bad eng.. I'm from Sweden.
Well that was bad ass
how do you perform a kinematics test?
I felt that over the internet. No joke.
0:26
Holy Crap!!
the huge lathes i run can take a crash pretty much like a train derailment! ive crashed a few times and other employees combined have destroyed $10s of 1000s worth of tooling and absolutely no damage to the machine. id call my self a liar if id not witnessed it over the last 8+ years. Early 1970s built ROMi. lathes they are absolute brutes of machines. the servos will crush the tool (insert) holders and not even flinch.
I crashed a Daewoo DMV3016 onto a hard jaw at 50% rapid and it scared everyone in the shop 😂
Hey guys, could you share your tips (or process if you have it) on what specific steps do you make to avoid crashes?
I'm still a job shop and altough I've never crashed my machine badly, I've broken a few end mills
Hey Efrain, hit me up on facebook or discord. Ill give you my take.
Of course, my response should be suspect, as i literally just crashed a machine in front of 100,000 people 😂
I don't know what the heller kinematic test is actually measuring. Assuming that it's like the DMG Mori one, where the machine detects the position of rotary axes pivot, i would recommend to check the backlash of z axis as well. It's just a suggestion, not a criticism!
Maybe Vericut would be your next sponsor, since Sandvik own CGTech, and Mastercam?
just out of curiosity, how much is that heller machine?
You'd think the servo amp's can be set up to trip out on over currents.
There are only two cnc machinists types in this world. Those who have crashed them and those who are going to crash them. If you never made a scrapped part or crashed a machine you are either new to the trade or are not working fast or hard enough.
Damn that crashed hard
Are there more videos coming on this part?
I dont believe the show would be the same with out you Berry lmao.
Ok Titan it is time to put Berry in time out 😂
I always use Vericut before hitting cycle start on the machine.
It wasn't so much as an indestructible machine (casting, bearings, screws) as the electronic feedback. But, damn, dude......did you not run it through graphics...hahaha lmao!!!😂😂😂
We'll revisit this in 6-8 months if you still have the machine when the spindle bearings fail. Axial crashes are the least worst way to crash, but still hard on the machine and typically dent the bearings in the spindle which leads to long term fretting and spindle failure.
Crashes do and will happen again. name of the game in this world. Willing to bet either wrong work coordinate or wrong tool length offset was called. classic oopsie lol
_"I hope you like my crash."_ No, I don't ever want to see _your_ crash. But the machine crash you _caused to happen_ was informative!
From what I seen so far hermle mashin's are very similar to thisbut got higher acceleration so there is no chance they can detect that at that speed one thing they got tho are aluminum bushings so in lots of cases they take the hit so you don't have to replace the complete spindle just the head
i have crashed 3 or 4 of them,the bushings saved me every time
@@kristiankautto7616 i haven't so far but the Maschinist before me has and got saved by those. Really great mashine
MORE CRASH VIDS ! :}
Yayyy not fired....funny
I would still get a good telling off tho : )
I so wish you guys were UK based cause I'd do anything to come work for you 😢
どれだけ優れたmachinistでも機械をクラッシュさせるリスクは0ではありません。
もし間違えないと思っているならばそれは過剰な自信です。常にリスクは付きまとう。
Correct
very true man. there is always a room for error. and hence mistakes must not be taken seriously. infact they must be allowed to be corrected promptly
@@pr00009 あなたの言う通りです。自分を責めたり、間違えた人を責めることは良くありません。
What about the spindle bearings after the crash?
Whenever I hear something crashing or something of that sort I say, well that sounded expensive
All cnc crashes make me sick.. even if it's someone other crashes, i dont like watch this kind of video, i made exeptions for Barry ;)
Oh my! Don't repeat it with the little big babe beast! :´D
ok, now we need to see a fail compilation
Well at least there was a mini compilation at the end of this video 😂
@@barrysetzer MOREEE!!! i want to see you FAIL😆
All Heller machines handle a crash like that? It’s one thing to crash my Tormach with 2hp. I couldn’t imagine crashing a machine with enough hp to begin eating itself.... Funny how when writing software you hit the compile button and if there is an error no big deal or program fails to compile. I had to relearn this when I got into Cnc machining because an error could be catastrophic. Much love and gratitude for the content.
Well, a colleage of mine crashed a H5000 straight into the fixture because he selected the wrong program from our robot automation he was setting up. The motor spindle was out of whack by 0.02mm afterwards although it had 8 years of full 3-shift production on it's belt at that point already. So it was not exactly clear if all of that came from the crash. Tool and part of the hydraulic fixturing were also broken. The rest of the machine was fine. Total cost of that crash was around 30k.
@@michaelapel9810 That's nuts. Total cost of the machine before tooling?
At my job writing just got a new doosan?? (Spelling) it's got that sideways puma looking logo on it. I've a machinist in training I've been working for 4 or 5 months so I'm still a rookie, but they said that machine was between 1.7 and 2.5 million dollars. I can't remember exactly I think it was 2.3m so I'm giving leeway each way. We have cheaper machines that don't do the .0010 tolerance as well so we run parts with a. 0030 variance on them and they are our bread and butter. I .are parts for the aerospace industry most of what I personally touch is 99% aluminum. The smaller machines will make certain fittings or pieces out of steel for higher stress/worked areas of the part like clamps ect.
@@tdg911 Not quite sure. We only did a retrofit (new PLC and software) on the existing automation on that particular project. My guess would be around 1.8 million for the machine, tooling, fixturing, automation and in line measuring. But who knows what our customer pays for a new Heller. They have around 30 of them by now.
@@michaelapel9810 damn….
My 1st crash was on a vmc about 30 years ago.
I managed to program a label calling a label in a loop.
The 4k of memory had a meltdown and drove the spindle tool into the bed at rapid.
Oops!
Usually that hit is a thrust bearing killer....😢
I hope spindle bearings run ok over a month...and months to go...
If it was your first time running that program were you running the rapid faster than 1%? 🤔
3:56 That guy in the window doesn't even react while the other guy said he felt it through the floor. Something's fishy here
normally in crash situation you are looking at least 10's for damage and days in repairs
Distance to go?
Only every other Saturday
3:46 What the hell happened there that it bent the side panel of the fixture table? I cannot even make out what it ran into...
Bwahahaha, it was the tombstone into the spindle. Needed a PLC change