John Vervaeke - Chi Explained Without Magic
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- Опубліковано 26 сер 2024
- John Vervaeke, Ph.D. is a cognitive scientist and buddhist psychologist at the University of Toronto. In this video titled "A Naturalistic Account of Qi", John offers a theory to explain the psychological experience of Qi.
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If you hate you are a hater, if you love you are a lover, if you flow you are a flower.
am i the only one who said "Flo-oh-er" instead of flower like the plant...
chill comment
he says chi is a form of synaesthesia, a kind of guiding "liquid intelligence", has "projective" properties of imagination, mystical bridge of sorts that connects us to a deeper, hidden world. I would say it is a kind of energy of attention and wisdom.
No, he’s saying what you’re saying. The synaesthesia is simply an example of an affordance/insight pump/modelling module that leads to intuition. The ‘chi’ is just the channeling of attention/attentional energy. In other words, the flow of attention. No woo-energy required.
i learned juggling balls while dreaming. i watched a youtube video, grabbed three balls and tried it. of course i failed, not a chance. was able to throw each ball up and catch it once at most twice. i went to bed and had a lucid dream. i started to juggle and because i was in the dream it simply worked. next morning i stood up, grabbed the three balls and juggled without problems.
since then i tried to use this technique for several things but somehow i wasn't able to have success again
If you didn't write the last line, I wouldn't have believed you. Sounds believable and interesting..
I's casual process of learning, it happens all the time to everybody. What it has to do with anything?
Police album was Synchronicity not Synergy.
John's lucidity is amazing, contagious...."flow"- like!
Big, big BIG thank you!
Coming back here for the umpteenth time. It's one of the coolest lectures I have seen.
I agree. Every time (3x) I get something else quite profound.
@@christopherhamilton3621 aaaaaand back again
Great to see some modern scientific thinking applied to this ancient concept. Of real benefit to any student of Chinese martial arts who doesn't buy into the mysticism.
Anyone who has ever had moments of mastery of common things in their life are able to understand this. I have found this in three different examples in my life. Golf which I have played since I child but never even close to truly mastered. There are times when the swing no longer becomes a mental and physical movement but it becomes effortless and everything comes together in one flowing manifestation of the ball rising and coming off the end of the club as they intersect in flight. It is almost like slow motion from a visual standpoint. The feeling inside the body is better than an orgasm. The explanation in a nutshell is feeling like water.
My tip for you: search why it feels like water, you know, the four elements... You will end up in something like alchemy 😉
Complexity is when both differentiation and integration occurs
Please, make the subtitles available! Vervaeke's insights can be hard to follow and he speaks quite fast on top of that. I find myself rewinding the video quite often not to miss anything and even then, there are some words and parts of sentences I simply can't figure out.
I wonder how this squares with experiences one can have while practising yoga nidra? When I manage to surrender completely while remaining fully aware of my body (and not sleeping), I can get powerful surges of energy running through my body. I would say my most powerful physical experience has been during a yoga nidra session last year a few days before Christmas. I guess iId ask the same of experiences one can have during tantric-inspired slow lovemaking. The term usually used in those contexts is "Kundalini", but I imagine Vervaeke would see this as related with chi, or am I missing important nuances here? Anyway, I was thinking that "learning" really doesn't seem like the crux of what's happening when I'm relaxing into my body and receiving waves of blissful energy.
by the way, I'm blown away here as usual by Vervaeke! Just sharing my thoughts and eager to see if anyone's thought about this fine point more deeply than I have.
Scholarship on mysticism does point to the realness of mystical experiences (which I'm here using in the broad term in which Vervaeke uses it today, not arrogating some profundity at the level of the great historical figures). Perhaps in yoga nidra and other such practices there is a similar kind of learning, gripping, etc. going on but in our relationship to the constants in our inner landscape. Yoga nidra as often as blissful is very painful, in that it brings up suppressed grief, reliably, with which you then do need to grapple, but also feel equipped to. There is an almost flow-like feeling in the way it feels right to cry then, and how much to cry, and how to move -- a flow of emotional processing. Riffing here on an 11-yo video lol, but it's helping me think so I hope you don't mind XD
This guy is brilliant.
do we have neurons in stomach?? never knew this
interests10 Yes. Neural tissue can appear everywhere, even the heart is mostly neural tissue.
There it is and a huge smile comes to my face. ROCK CLIMBING, where I first experienced this.
Whoa mind blown in 2 ways
1 half the words you said took me a extra 30 seconds to figure out.
2 it was a very deep train of thought.
Nice to see science stop dismissing new ideas at once.
the Police album was called Synchronicity not Synergy
those earings
The way we discuss chi in my kung fu school is a mixture of internal awareness (prorioception, nociception, equilibrioception, pulmonary stretch reception and so on, and externally-focused mechanoreception and EPP (extended physiological proprioception). Which are all enhanced by increased oxygenation of the blood, and brought into conscious focus by awareness training (meditation, moving exercises, etc.). Nothing mystical about it, it's just you being more aware of the current state of your body re. relative position, tension, acceleration, rotation, and centre of gravity; and awareness of external things by way of EPP and haptic perception.
+Michael Barry whoever is explaining chi in the way you are describing, simply does not understand this substance. Do not take what is being explained to you as chi by your kung-fu source as the final conclusive reality on it. There is a book called "the physics and spiritual nature of: chi" look on amazon and read that author,... especially if you are into kung-fu. The author is a no bullshit internal kung-fu guy.
+Vincent Peppers Funny how the author's name is Vincent Peppers. Self-promotion is unbecoming.
I don't subscribe to the concept of "spiritual" anything, because there is no scientific evidence that anything like the "spirit" exists, unless you are using it to refer to attitude or psychological experiences. A scientific, naturalistic explanation of chi (or anything) must not rely on unsubstantiated religious or spiritual claims that are not backed by evidence. A scientific, naturalistic explanation of chi is a psycho-physiological explanation, not something that talks about the "Creator" and "spirit" and other baseless supernatural claims.
Regarding "conclusive reality", I accept reality as being that which is supported by empirical evidence and confirmed by observation and experimentation. I.e. a naturalistic reality that does not rely on evidenceless supernatural entities or substances to explain the world.
+Dan C Dan, there is zero scientific evidence that 'spirit' exists as a discrete entity or substance separate from the mind or the body. Everything that has ever been thought at one point to be magic, or gods, or supernatural, that has been examined by scientific enquiry, has been proven to be not magic. Or do we still believe in aether and the élan vital?
+Dan C empirical evidence is by definition that which has been observed and measured. Do you mean "anecdotal" evidence? Firstly anecdotes aren't evidence,and secondly there is no evidence outside of anecdotes for the existence of anything supernatural or spiritual.
My worldview only does not have room for things that do not demonstrably exist. If you can measure it and show that it exists in a scientifically valid, falsifiable and repeatable manner, guess what, my worldview will adjust to accommodate it. Nobody in the history of modern science has been able to demonstrate in a falsifiable and repeatable experiment the existence of anything supernatural.
Show me it exists, and I will accept its existence. If you can't, I won't. Simple as that.
+Dan C So you're saying that "spirit" is not supernatural, but natural? Please do provide evidence of the chemical composition of spirit molecules, or is it made up of quantum particles like photons are? Does spirit have mass? What's its specific electrical charge? Can we expect to find spirit particles in the Large Hadron Collider, or the next generation of particle supercolliders, the proposed International Linear Collider (ILC)?
I do martial art. I do chi. I do flow. (it was not easy to learn). Fantastic talk, so insightfull, linking so many different aspect of the mind.
improv = flow state
Just wonderful, I have been researching "learning powerful methods to build your Chi energy" for a while now, and I think this has helped. Have you heard people talk about - Fellmeroni Rudimentary Chi - (search on google ) ? Ive heard some super things about it and my buddy got amazing success with it.
Going to have to watch this a bit at a time as there is so much good stuff in here, & I need time to assimilate it.
Did you manage ?
Did anybody else see a connection to the Taiji symbol when he was discussing mutual modelling and drew the husband and wife diagram?
A new chi theory;- The density of the gases around us cause bouyancy, we
live at the bottom of an ocean of air.
Imagine a glass vaccum jar with the same surface area as the average
human body.
Once empty, the glass would have to resist 20 tonnes worth of Newtons to
prevent collapse.
(The direction of this force that is 20 times stronger than gravity and
is centre to peripheral rather than up down.
Architectural thought proces have been overlaid onto a liquid system.
Standard Western model of biophysics regards the body as a solid object
running off pulleys and levers.)
Imagine the glass becomes elastic filled with water, a water balloon.
Any presure changes within the liquid (an air balloon inside the water
balloon opening and closing) will need to rapidly EQUALIZE this 20 tonne
force as well as the weight of the water being contained by the
balloon.
A liquid relaxed body does so, a hard solid body does not.
A liquid relaxed body can dilate nerves as well as contract them
allowing effortless hydraulic piston action to form and the pressure to
move around hydraulicaly.
A relaxed liquid central nervous system can feel lines of sonic
stillness that form inside the liquid due to curved mirror wave
cancellation. Think of nerves as elastic bands suspended in fluid,
rather than copper wire running through solid walls. You can feel the
lines of quiet inside the body more easily than areas of vibrational
sonic noise.
Any rounded surface like the inside of an egg that has waves of energy
bouncing off the walls inside, will create tapestries of stillness,
click my channel for experimental evidence of this effect. Rounded
surfaces are the only effective waty to deal with bouyancy force.
Once the major laws of physics, gravity, heat, and bouyancy
equalization/ curve / nodal tapestries can be felt, the next major law
that becomes visceral, is sympathetic resonace.
Boddichitta anyone?
I have run my theory past Physicists and a Taoist lineage master (i am a
tai chi master) and have so far not found any resistance, so, can you
see any flaw in my argument?
Still relevant
What you described is how I live my life
very insightful and thought provoking content, thank you for sharing
Chi is a Silent Mind
A martial artist doesn't buy into the mysticism. By keeping an open mind to concepts undefinable by modern science the martial artist can experience the fruits of ancient practices. The results of Alex Golod's pyramid studies are pretty interesting and I would presume the energy used in them is akin to that of Chi
I do not know what rock you have been hiding under but pyramid energy is one of the biggest and oldest pseudoscience scams around, never stood up to scientific investigation.
May I say, "woot!" What a treat. Next time I'm in Toronto I want to push hands with you guys. ;^)
46:40 A well rounded mother as opposed to a blockhead mother?
I left a note on Wisdom on YT. I have a great Sophysyn on Wisdom for Buddha Nature, entratcia, Engape as relationships to others, & it being transformative not only for the receiver of the relationship, but the perspective of sharing your cognition, with PTSD pat. It is a great way to heal....Honestly. Thanks John!
The comments later on about verbal language hindering insight & learning, and gesture facilitating them, make me wonder about how sign language might influence them. Sign language makes use of much of the same neural & cognitive machinery as verbal language, but it is of course conveyed through gesture of the face and hands, rather than articulation of the mouth parts.
Bruce Leroy in The Last Dragon proved the power of these ideas!
The title of this speech is misleading. He only talks about 'working with chi;' he never explains what 'chi' is. It is still an interesting speech.
Yes he does you obviously do not understand his speech he gives a number of plausible explanations.
I was hoping this video would talk about Chi in the acupuncture sense, meridians etc. This doesn't really go into that at all.
Be Water!
Bro just explained magic
very sober view - like it much )
Very Good Video!
Does anyone know which sources John cites for Kennedy and Van der Veer?
I found mutual modeling by Read Montague in his book "Your Brain Is (Almost) Perfect: How We Make Decisions".
"Correlational appearance versus causal realness." [24:20]
So Chi is a type of flow state. I heard lots about flow but not much about chi. But if they are the same I guess that’s it.
Boom
I kept waiting
I'll stick with the educated yogis like Sarvapriyananda for explanations of these phenomena
Brilliant guy who ran dancing without the ball. Maybe next time he can say something about the proposed topic...
Energy in the brain & cognitive science is not about the somatic nervous system of chi. Big difference.
If some one were to ask " which one is booba and which one is kiki" there is already a pre-determined booba. By telling them "Booba' first and then "kiki" to follow, wouldn't their brain automatically replicate that in a way since writing is usually done left to right. Wouldn't their brain automatically find the easiest solution which would be to most likely look left, like they were reading, and then look right. Ask someone backwards, which would would you call kiki and which one booba.
The kiki, boobah thing is because boobah sounds like more of a male name and kiki a female name. Females tend to have more curves hence kiki being the one on the right. Males tend to have straighter bodies hence less curves is more male.
So... chi is a state of mind?
superb
Could he talk any faster?
25:45 brilliant
I thought Chi was a primarily physical experience, why is he equating it with mental intuition?
+Essa “MKWii Hacking Content” 2015 - The answer to your no doubt rhetorical question is one word: cluelessness. Or more poetically as a very nearby other commenter put it: "Brilliant guy who ran dancing without the ball." Kudos to +Brent Lancaster for that one.
+Essa “MKWii Hacking Content” 2015
Chi involves the mind, body, and soul. He, as a cognitive scientist, can speak most confidently only through the mental aspects of chi, which i think he did well. But obviously that leaves us with a sense of lacking.
Because there are different definitions. One somatic & one brain function.
1:04:00
Qi as depicted in the Classic Chinese Texts is neither ‘energy’ nor ‘spirit’ and certainly has v little to do with the projections of western thinking! Here are some pointers….
As a literal translation it has more to do with the vital breath, vital here from the original Latin meaning Life.
The Yuan Qi or Source/ Original Qi, is Existent as a continuous ineffable Well-Spring who’s nature flows, here and now, condensing through subtle realms. In the first place as the life of Heaven, which is a priori and acts as the initiating and inspiring domain for the more condensed Earthly realms which sit below acting out as the play of light and shade (YinYang)
Qi is this breathing of the Life of the Universe, you could say the Infinite moving through an infinite number of finite forms, trans- forming and expressing more emergent possibilities from the limitless potential of the Sea of Qi.
Qi is primordial and belongs to the mystery of life which cannot be named (categorised) being both transcendent of space-time yet immanent as the movement of Qi within Form.
You cannot own it, anymore than you can catch air, in fact space Is the total free flow of Qi. It is our Original Nature.
Well, this brilliant talk referring to many cross-discipline ideas is in many ways similar to my perception of what happens in the the neuronal mind (rule-deducing / logical / modelling side of our mind). However Chi is spiritual in nature. And, although John doesn't recognize this more general context, he tries his best to make the meaning of everything in the context of neuronal networks / rule deduction / evolutionary framework. However this doesn't make a perfect sense. For example, John talks about cerebellum and cross-modal integration of various models and representations. This looks reasonable - as brain makes many levels of models (and meta- models) of the world and tries to conceptualize everything in an abstract way. But. It doesn't explain Chi this way. If brain is so evolutionary expensive, if life is risky - then why on Earth the brain would need to create some weird models of "strange" motions of "non existent and non physical" energy. What evolutionary advantages it would give us? Why it will evolve our desire to explore it? We FEEL it very deep - all its flows and all its subtle shades... This phenomenon won't survive through natural selection. Because there is no evolutionary pressure for non-being a Chi master :) Chi mastery isn't required for our bodies survival and reproduction and its practice isn't too helpful with all this cross-modal integration of brain parts. I think its different phenomena. Chi knowledge is cultural phenomenon (as we learn it from our masters) so its more like an alphabet, or knowledge of physics laws ( that are objective - but we had to spend many centuries and lots of efforts of many people - to crystallize this knowledge into the working models). So Chi indeed is a phenomenon that is WORKING but in another way. And isn't just a by-product of brain cross-talk. I think, that this is a next level of consciousness organization, by perceiving one's own consciousness and its flows. Because if we look at our mind in the more general framework (as at a spiritual reality) we would notice that we're here to learn some lessons. And that our life isn't just some survival & reproduction inferno. Its something MUCH MORE greater. Like some kind of "elementary school" where we are learning basic lessons of ethic, and how to to awake our consciousness. So, without this greater frame of meaning, everything becomes meaningless. We cannot explain this greater phenomena in terms of biological machinery... Thats it, brain machinery exists as a means to implement the God's will about us all...
@Praxis of Logos are you a neural network trained on Jordan Peterson datasets?
I havent' watched the video yet. i'm hesitating because it is going to 'splain chi to me. I'm not sure I wan't Chi to be 'spained to me allrigth. Yet I think you are somewhat incorrect. Chi is physical.
I don't understand why we find the need to try to explain things that do not need to be explained. Chi is not something that needs to be coupled with science or psychology. Brilliant speech and examples but the best way to understand is to practice and learn from within
+Mike D Science is for those with a little less faith comparatively but it is still important. Some people need rules and boxes to get a grasp on the abstract nature of life. Of course these rules and boxes can become restricting if still kept around after they've served their purpose.
+Mike D Proving something for yourself is one thing. Proving something to be objectively true, is a whole nother thing.
+Mike D I think the word piezoelectricity is the closest in your face western explanation of chi. The wikipedia definition says it all. "Piezolectricity is the electric charge that accumulates in certain solid materials (such as crystals, certain ceramics, and biological matter such as bone, DNA and various proteins)." This science is important in that it supports targeting of the connective tissue (piezolectric) in actual training and supports why the connective tissue is so important in chinese medicine. With this understanding I have searched for researcher/trainers in connective tissue. The channels "EBFAFitness" and "Secrets of athletisicm" both cover connective tissue, tendon, development and overlap what is taught in chinese internal martial arts in terms of connective tissue development, but without discussion of chi or the piezoelectric nature of connective tissue (I wish they would research this). I used their understanding and training as a stepping stone to understand internal martial arts conditioning and bingo I get results I have been looking for, speed, strength, magnetic sensation and use of the dantien. It takes correct hard work and soreness to get magnetic electrical sensations. It took me many years to get to basic levels in bagua which I could not do without the science, researchers and my teacher. I am one of the few that gets results. Piezoelectricity
Mike can you perform chi your self ?
Michael because as understanding deepens we can learn how to better use these phenomena.
I have no idea what he's talking about.. talking about insight cascades and energy. My brain is all confused.
+iiXeno Don''t worry, it is OK. He didn't know what he was talking about either. Some interesting isolated remarks, but I - foolishly, it seems - listened to the whole video waiting for him to say something about ch'i - and await still I do. But then a big clue is the phrase in the description about "the psychological experience of Chi" for it is that the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon... as not the reflection of the moon in the water either is.
We need to convert the New Agers to naturalism NOW.
Why? what would you get from this?
I dont even remember
Well most 'New Age' stuff is a misinterpretations and misunderstandings, so at least you would rid the world of some nonsense
Most new age takes from various concepts and forms them into an ideology, and often this includes aspects of naturalism.. coupled with an entheon of their choice
Wake me up in one hour
why are you trying to explain it so much. it's energy = chi = ki = qi
"energy" is definitely the wrong answer. The boy couldn't stop the train.
The Greek question: how many boys stop the train when nobody looks?
um um um um ...um um um...um..um.um....umm....um...um..ah...ahh....um...ahh...um ...
He needz Jesus!
And you need Buddha!
+Scott Brown - I would have said instead a dose of LSD, but... oh, never mind.
I'm pretty sure Scott's comment is satirical.
every needs jesus like a hole in the head, actually you would be better of with a hole in the head than bejeezusses.
No!
Chi is electromagnetism
no. That we can measure really well. It simple isn't anything physical. Just as a beautifull ballet is not just the physical bodies moving.
It is improbability. More specifically, it is a subtype of information, the information necessary to learn to learn. Improbability breeds improbability. It is not measurable yet because we don't have a complete theory of phenomena, still I guess that we're getting pretty close to it on the mathematical side (Moonshine).
ROTFLOL! Err, no….
sorry, i could not follow these nervous fumbling and stumbling speech ....
after 5 minutes i had enough!
horrible speaker!
Try his more recent series on the "Meaning Crisis"
Hi! I'm Mike and I don't give a f***.