Mike Rowe reminds us the labour shortage is only getting worse
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- Mike Rowe and I had a conversation about how to fix the skills gap (7.5 million jobs)
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Got the chance to have a more in depth conversation with Mike Rowe recently on the Modern Craftsman Podcast. Find that conversation here:ua-cam.com/video/hYPNlOJK2eo/v-deo.html
The biggest factor driving the labor shortage in the construction trade down south is the refusal of many contractors to pay decent wages. $15 an hour for a job that expects you to supply and maintain your own work vehicle and thousands of dollars worth of your own tools and equipment while the boss makes six figures and doesn’t even show up everyday is insane.
Its that way everywhere. I am a mechanic and have no desire to work in that industry. I need 10s of thousands in tools, always have to update and upgrade, for the same wages i was making 15 years ago.
If is 30 dollar per hour is ok but 15 is not enough
How can you live on $15 an hour? And in Louisiana its $7.25 an hour.
@@Doriesep6622 In 1970, earning a net income of $20,000.00 doing basic trades work is DECENT enough to support a family of 5 (1 wife and 4 children) in decent middle class lifestyles and during that year the FDR Regulatory Policies protecting labor is still in FORCE! But now in 2023 politicians gutted the entire system and tries to shift the blame on other people for the mistakes that they did just for $MONEY$ from Big Corporations!
@@Doriesep6622 $7.25 hourly for skilled trades?!? To hell with that
I have been in construction for 30 years, there is not a shortage of workers, the problem is the pay is too low for this work.
And your generation would rather have a young man push a broom then teach him something.
And don’t forget with the non replacement birth rates that there just isn’t the people necessary to replace the older workers. It takes 30 years to make a generation of 20 somethings.
@@zer0her058no replacement is right, they’re being replaced by someone else.
@@clintit1 and your generation would like it handed to you without paying your dues.
I'm a nurse that can sew, do masonry, woodworker, upholstery, gardening, small carpentry jobs and lots of other jobs. I've saved so much money doing things myself. My father taught me a lot and a few things I learned by trial and error. It's good to know how to do things not only as a primary job but to be able to do things for yourself.
Are you teaching your children to do the same?
@@SerV689 I already did. They are 30 and 26. Both are college educated in the medical field. Every xmas they had to MAKE gifts for family. This was a good opportunity to have them practice skills such as baking, woodworking, sewing, etc. They both helped with all the projects we did around the house and learned skills that they use today.
It feel like that's true for everyone. Now days, you look up what you need to know to fix it, and fix it. So why pay for someone to do it?
@@adryncharn1910 its true for people like us, but the truth is when it comes to larger projects, beyond repairing the dryer or light switch, like replacing sewer lines8 ft deep and replacing an electrical panel, most will not go there, and they need this level of trade person take on the task.
@@adambergmann7716 Or redoing an entire set of stairs 2weeks before family comes over.... I had a close call
The biggest problem with tradework is dealing with the boss's losers kids and relatives who always have a job, and the 'outsiders' on the crew are expected to clean up after them.
I'm 27 and ive been in many different construction trades and I can tell you it's the work condition and the pay that makes me no longer want to do it. also older contractors treat their apprentinces with no respect, and people look down on you when they find out you're in construction.
I was dating a female back in 2012 in Cincinnati. Her parents told her to break up with me because I was a concrete finisher. At that point I was a Journeyman. She started dating some ugly dude with a master's degree. That opened my eyes to the hatred people have towards trades.
@@RealMTBAddict that's so unfortunate, Im sure she missed out and you dodge a bullet.
@@soheilrasekhi7263 Anybody that lets their parents run their life is a big turn off. She was 26 and living at home!
What kind of pay would be worth it for you to stick with trades? Like how much hourly or by the day?
@@Recusant_ $40hr
Ok, you guys can't keep beating the same old drum. UNTIL WAGES RISE THERE WILL ALWAYS BE A SHORTAGE!
Europe pays their tradesmen extremely well. You can’t just say we need motivated kids in the trades and not pay them. I wonder if construction companies will do ESOP’s more to attract workers. Gone are the days of underpaying your workers. If you want workers you have to pay em enough to live. People won’t work construction and a second job after that labor intensive day.
What do they pay over there?
It's a sad place here in America. A great many people don't recognize how important the trades are and how much skill needs to be learned/ taught so that we can continue to be a successful country.
True.
These guys make less than a mcdonalds employee. "America" doesn't deserve good workers until they can provide for the labor
Not just U.S. It's the same In Canada...trades have been vilified for some reason (although we all know how) and the education pencil-necks all but eliminated pure trades from highschool. Now there is a trades deficit.
@@mouthfulacoque3580 thank you! THANK YOU! To many people ignore that aspect and then wonder why there’s a huge trade deficit. And it’s so obvious too….
@@mouthfulacoque3580 Exactly. You want more/better workers? Learn to treat them better
Part of the problem was that many of the trades didn't pay well and you could go months or years without work depending on the economy. There were more people than jobs. Now that many of those people have retired and demand has gone up as well the script has flipped. Not enough workers, well paid, and short bits of unemployment in-between jobs.
good points
When I was in engineering school I took a machine shop course and I found more value in that than the actual engineering classes. Making things gave me insight into how the real world works. Something I couldn't get from a book.
Kudos to you. But always remember that engineering is still a very important part of manufacturing.
It’s a real problem that we are about to train a generation of engineers that never played with legos or tinker toys. I spent a lot of time playing with such things, and trying to build basic things myself as a kid, and then going on to become an adult who prefers to do things myself if I can, it has given me, it turns out, some pretty good instincts of what not to bother asking an engineer to design for me. Just fiddling around with actual materials teaches you things that you later find out have actual words and scientific explanations for why they do and don’t work. Now you have the words for it, but you sort of knew it already. This is why if you live outside of city limits in Texas and you don’t need a structural engineer to stamp your design, you’re just a swell off getting an experienced Framer turned drafter to do your lumber layout for you. And what he can do for you that the engineer may not (probably won’t) is have an instinct for what layout will cost a fortune to build and what alternative will work just as good and not break your bank.
When I was in high school (1990), you had to take a basic shop class prior to mechanical drafting. You had to take mechanical drafting to be accepted into the building trades class.
The building trade class built a house from footings to lightbulbs. They sold the house, and those funds funded the next year’s build.
I took shop. I took mechanical drafting. I was admitted to the BT class. We sat for a week in that class doing nothing, wondering where the teacher was and what was going on.
Finally someone poked their head in the door and said the Building Trades program had been discontinued. Everyone needed to replace it with 4 credit hours.
Later we found out the school had taken the money from the sale of last years’ house and used it to fund the band’s new uniforms and instruments. The teacher resigned in a rage. We were beyond pissed off.
The school dropped all shop classes a few years later.
Now there is no vocational training offered at all. Hasn’t been any for 20+ years.
That should have not only stayed in the curriculum but become a mandatory class. Would have taught more life skills than having to take US history for the 3rd or 4th time since kindergarten. That makes me soooo angry just listening to that story. That poor teacher. I wonder what he’s doing now.
McDonalds pay 15 dollars an hour, Trades pay 15 dollars an hour in hard environment. I wonder why no one goes into trades.
And you somehow have to buy your own tools from that $15/hr
@@redrustyhill2 I had to buy my own on 5 dollars an hour 30 years ago. Had to get a second job to do it. and worked a second job for another 15 years, Trades does not pay as much as some say they do. It takes a good 15 years to make a livable wages
I think another major problem with the skilled trades are the employers themselves. All employers care about now is experience. No one is willing to take a young kid who knows nothing, and train them up. I’ve looked at skilled trade jobs, and even the lowest jobs like laborer or carpenter assistant positions require one year plus experience. Well, how are they supposed to get experience if no one will hire them because they don’t have experience!
Find a job with a small owner/ operator. If you show yourself to be serious about learning a trade..... the opportunities are plentiful.
@@rjthomasindyusa this is disingenuous advice.
@@sorejack Again…. have you ever worked for me? Do you know me? Yet your going to tell me that I’m disingenuous? How does that make sense? I think you should take a long look in the mirror my friend…….
@@rjthomasindyusa in my 20 years experience, its the small guys that have been the worst. paying peanuts and expecting the mona lisa from people just looking to work and get a fair shake. your problem is, you cant see your as jaded as they are, as i am. theyve got no trust left. thats what it boils down to. im not going balls out to massage the ego of someone anymore.
Many years ago, I had a discussion with a doctor regarding his teenage son. Dad wanted him to be an attorney or doctor. His son thought he wanted to build homes. Dad arranged for his son to work with a builder friend of his over several summers, exposing the son foundation construction, laying block, framing, electrical, plumbing, etc. His son did become a builder however, if dad hadn't taken the time to expose him to the work at the age of 13-17, I don't think the son would've had the tools early enough in life. Never forgot this discussion.
Loved that conversation! Definitely appreciate all that both of you are doing to get things back on track. I agree that it needs to start early. When I was in 6th grade they had a day where you could pick a trade and work with them for a day, it was a huge impact in my life, I remember it like it was yesterday!
Im a truck driver the goverment and all companies say we are unskilled labor just so they can pay use less then we are worth. 12 to 14 hours NO overtime even for hazardous freight. Same thing is happening with ship yards and rail works.
No work from home when Covid came around.
Let the money at the top of all companies get down to the guy bushing a broom we all know what happens when the toilet dose not work. Money money money pay people.
They get away with paying poorly because you, and others in your position, allow them to. If people wouldn't agree to work for such low wages, then they would be forced to pay more to get drivers.
I have been in the trades for over 20 years and now I feel completely broke down and also have very little to show for it.
Ask any why they’ve left the trades? Bad leadership. Sure, it’s all sweet in the beginning, but they slowly see what they can get away with. From paying late to allowing yourself to be their punching bag, bad employers are to blame. Most guys who’ve been in trades over twenty years without going on their own have horror stories. Some bosses try to make up for crackhead employees by taking advantage of their loyal workers. Loyalty can be taken away as quickly as it’s given and honestly, the worker suffers until they find a good boss, or switches careers. Many want to misclassify workers as ten 99, but then wait two weeks for a check, or when the customer pays (sometimes workers are told they weren’t paid and wonder why workers won’t stay) some have found it better to bounce around as day laborers. Generally, the contractor is humbled by the point they don’t have regular guys and thankful for a solid day laborer showing up with their own hand tools, let alone one showing up with power tools.
Yea, you can’t “quiet quit” the trades. The effort is transparent.
But that also means it requires a high performance. So you have to value the workers. But everything has become corporatized
Nailed it, buddy!
I own industrial electrical company don't have alot of employees but I treat my employees with up most respect cause I was one that got mistreated but I take it serious and strive hard to give my employees the best education they can get
@@zackperkins7991 Excuse me, I want to become an electrician, how can I find a company I can do an apprenticeship under? I rather join the Union because I think it’s generally better as an employee, but as we all know they are super selective and my mom told me it’s really hard to join if you don’t know anyone. Also I’m 19 but I only have a driving permit. I will work in McDonald in the meantime so I can get a car and get my license. But if I can’t get an apprenticeship in a company or under the Union, then what do I do? I don’t want to waste my life anyone.
I’m not saying all employers are bad, I know they’re out there. Bless you for being good to your guys!
Great interview. From my perspective, to stay with a job, one has to learn the importance of finishing a job. I grew up on a 50×100 foot lot that had a house on it. A quarter of the back yard was garden. My grandparents garden was even bigger. My brothers and sister had to help out with keeping the house in order and looking after the yard and garden. My grandfather stressed to me to always finish the job that you are working on. I think this is one of the most important lessons we can teach our kids.
I was lucky to grow up in a house, but even if you're living in an apartment it's really important to have a schedule and routine of chores for your kids. As far as our school system, the same rule applies. Kids should be taught how to finish their assignments.
If there is a shortage then wages should be going up. Wages climb until the job is filled or the company closes. Here in the San Francisco bay area they want to pay trained line cooks $17-22 an hour. That's absurd.
thats reality. whats absurd is the old folks that cant adjust their minds around the concept of inflation.
Illegal immigration. Everyone is scared to say it, how long does it need to go on? It’s like the emperor has no clothes situation.
The trades have worse pay, worse working conditions, worse benefits, and less vacation time than any office job or in air conditioning job. I have done both if you have any self respect dont go into the trades, they dont respect you and do not deserve you
There is no shortage of tradesmen. We are all just doing things that make more money. Trades are dead. They paid better in the 90's. When the money was worth more. Don't worry, the border is open and there are plenty of minimum wage workers coming though.
Bad mindset.
@NSBuilders no, realistic mindset. My wages havnt gone up ANY in the past 15 years while costs of food and gas have gone up 3-4x
@@NSBuilders truth. why i left the trades. i sure wasnt doing it for my health, did enjoy the work. just not enough to stay poor.
Great conversation!
I have been working in the industry overseas since 2010 witnessing from Australia, Switzerland or Singapore to Myanmar or Central Asia and can tell that the problem with skills and commitment is getting lost generationally everywhere and I agree: the difference in the way it is approached in a holistic level in some countries and you can really sense it.
I busted my butt and got licensed as a remodeling contractor, one customer ran into money problems and couldn't fund the materials anymore, he filed a complaint against me, lied his butt off and I lost my license for not finishing the contract. Now I'm going to put that customer in prison for perjury. And file lawsuits against the state and ROC
This is 99% of the reason i dont want to start my own automotive repair shop. The entitled customers who want free work and there is always someone who tries to blame you for breaking something
Most builders don’t give a crap about quality work they want it done and in the quickest fastest timeframe to move on from one project to the next! That’s why they all have callbacks after all houses sold because of all the mistakes that were made because nobody’s in charge of quality control at building a home!
There are a few builders out there that are the exception to this rule but they’re far and few between only the ones have been bitten in the butt over and over and over again finally come to the realization that they need to have some quality control put it to building their homes that’s maybe 10 out of very of 100 builders
I love the trades. Was in it for years and I’m now a project manager for a construction company but people do need to relieve that trades are hard on your body and dangerous. I poured concrete for years and for every year I work it felt like I took 2 off my life.
As carpenters, we shouldn’t care about labour shortage.
Clients should care and they don’t seem to care.
Why so much efforts from blue collars to combat labour shortage ? We’re shooting ourselves in the foot.
Let us do our jobs as usual and let the people who would benefit from an aboundance of cheap blue collars labour deal with it. Through financing training with tax money and enrolling their own kids into the trade. But we all know they won’t do either...
Then supply and demand. You can charge what you’re worth and make the customer pay
As a handyman and now a resident manager, I have never gone hungry. My services are always in demand. Provide quality and fair prices and you will always have repeat clients.
Come to Cleveland, OH. You will be Impressed by the abundance of skilled workers.
I do anesthesia for a living, but I grew up learning how to weld, wood work, plumb, rebuild an engine, drive a tractor, etc. I feel sorry for today's kids that won't have that experience.
I've been an automotive technician since 1996 and what I've experienced throughout the years is everything from bad management to bad work life balance to bad pay and it wasn't Ike this until around 2009 when this less is better mentality kicked in and these young folk now do not put up with any of that. You're not going to work them 55 hours a week for $11 an hour and require them to work every weekend and most holidays while dealing with a toxic work environment, they'll walk out during the busiest part of the day. These trades aren't attractive to young people because they feel it's not worth their time especially when they can get a work from home job paying $22 an hour
Yep. Why TF would I work in a crappy dirty shop for $22/hr, need to have 10s of thousands in tools when wallmart pays that to stock shelves?
It comes from the arrogance of the elites in Academia and Hollywood. Trades work became a dirty word by their standards. Made fun of and used as the “dolts” and “losers” in society . It still is today. As much now as ever. Changing that stigma and condescending attitude is crucial and sadly an uphill battle.
I spent 15 years in the white collar world and one of my biggest pet peeves was IT instructions. These people that write instructions on how to work or troubleshoot IT problems should be required to take a Technical Writing course because they 'assume' so much when they list instructions.
They assume because they asked questions to learn what they know. It's too late for you, but the readers might benefit from this
Most older people don't have basic computer skills. Hell half of the old office I used to work at didn't even know how to export a file to pdf. Learn to use google because that's how the younger generation learned everything. If you can ask questions about what you don't know you're basically useless at learning.
I have been doing concrete since 2008. The issue is the low pay. I was making $25hr as a Journeyman back in Ohio. Fast forward to today and the union scale is only $32hr in Colorado where the living costs are higher. In reality the scale should be $50hr. But they gave us little $1hr raises every until 2025, then no more raises until it's negotiated.
And non-union companies pay even less, because workers keep taking those jobs.
If you can't pay your workers at least $50hr when you are making millions you don't deserve a business. You are contributing to the downfall of the country. You will end up with lower skilled tradesmen resulting in weaker infrastructure.
But since executives love their money nothing will change. This country is an Oligarchy, controlled by the rich. Demanding everything from the workers and giving them crumbs.
I keep hearing this similar comment over and over again about how the owners make so much profit in the workers don't make anything That's true why not start your own business and make the big bucks? I've been a blue collar worker I've worked in white collar jobs and have also started a business or two starting a business is at least 20 times harder than even being a dairy farmer which is about the hardest job One can have. The vast majority of business not only don't make money they go bankrupted in a few years Plus you don't pay yourself for years when you start it you take your own money and savings and plow it into something that probably won't work. The employer takes on all the risk therefore they deserve more of the profit if you want more of the profit then like I said start your own see how easy it is.
@@Ryanrobi Great essay, but if your answer to low wages in every sector is to start your own business, then you lost the plot.
Everybody can't be a business owner, it's not possible. The world needs workers to do the work. So pay the workers a fair wage so they can thrive. Sure owners set everything up, but nothing would get done without the workers. If I owned a business I would pay the workers double what the market pays, because I'm not greedy.
English carpenter - I’ve lived in the US for ~8ys. I’ve had this exact conversation a hundred times with other trades, suppliers and local officials. The most telling stories have come from former shop class teachers. These are some of their points.
Education today is about ‘putting into’ not ‘extracting’ from people. How many dates and facts can you remember and can you pass the test. vs. cultivating and kindling a genuine interest, similar to that what Nick mentioned about his kids and the trucks.
Then, as Mike mentions with his mobile, he has access to all that information if and when he needs it.
Technical trades vs craft trades. Plumbing, HVAC, Electrical Vs. Carpentry, masonry, tile setting.
The craft trades have a long, slow, painful learning curve. In the age of instant - you’re not going to sit down and play concert level piano on day one, just like you’re not going to build a grain matched walnut cabinet bank on day one. If this isn’t explained, it’s easy for people become disheartened.
Why was shop class taken out of schools? As mentioned; funding, yes. Academia started to get involved. They wanted pass/fail results. Minimum class size and pre-requests to admittance. The craft trades, (I speak primarily as a carpenter) are a spectrum. There’s guys that make $20 and there’s guys that make $90. They’re both carpenters. Different skill sets.
Down the rabbit hole for the next one - Have you ever heard the phrase, “Everyone singing from the same hymn sheet”? What do you think the work University means? Uni-verse/ one song.
Mike has covered the “work smarter not harder” campaign ad-nauseam. University, is designed to trap you and produce more obedient debt slaves for the system. You can’t do that with the trades, you’re self reliant. No shop class - one path for everybody. Indoctrinate and entrap.
Europe vs the US. Europe has huge amounts of historical landmarks and cultural heritage sites. The trades are essential for maintaining and preserving them. Outside of the east and west coasts, America doesn’t have these. The economy doesn’t ask for quality, it asks for productivity.
Nick - there’s a bunch more, I’m happy to fill an empty spot on your podcast. I could talk about it all day. I do believe there are solutions but it will be up to the trades to fix it. The PR people can’t get us out of this.
Cheers!
I do want to hear what you have to say
Great interview. I see so much difference in kids back when I was young and now. Dads use to take their children out with them to say fix the car. The kids were excited that dad wanted their help. Dad was excited to teach the kids how to do the repairs. And most of the time they enjoyed just being together. Now kids want the play their video games. Dads don’t either have the time to teach what he is doing or takes the car into the repair shop to have it fixed. They are so stressed by their jobs they don’t have the patients to deal with teaching the kids. Or arguing with them to stop playing their games and come help. I see it in my own grandkids. If they have to do a chore they hurry up and do it so bad to get back to their video games. I blame a lot on these video games being used as babysitters when their kids are little so buy the time they are old enough to learn the trades they are so addicted to video games they don’t want to learn what the dad wants to teach them. It is a mess and we are loosing the kids interest in anything but video games. I respect the parents who limit the time kids can play these games or not have the games at all. Also I was told when teaching my son how to cook I was going to make a sissy out of him. But he wanted to cook and needed to learn to be able live in his own.
video games gave me the tools to pack shipping trucks, build homes, build instruments, design electrical and plumbing systems, drive heavy machinery, blah blah blah games are as effective as the child holding the controller. Blame the average idiot for being an idiot, not the other way around.
btw i do all of this AND cook. Keep up the good work.
This was a beautiful interaction! Nick, your philosophy and approach is inspirational. Keep up the amazing work you are doing!
I agree 100% with you on this. While yes, it is critical to get young people interested in the trades, no one has mentioned the possibility of people in their 50’s and 60’s, who are nearing “retirement” in a particular field that want to continue to work but in a new field that they are interested in. How does this happen? When I was growing up, I wanted to be a mechanic. My father would have nothing to do with it. He said I was going to college and then I was going to get a “better job”. In those days,mechanics were referred to as grease monkeys. Needed but not as well respected as a “white collar” job. Now, at 63, I’ve built a shop to do work in, and over the years I’ve learned a number of things I can do well. However, I have no formal training and know that I need some in particular areas. How does someone like myself, go about gaining and learning that type of information?
The labor shortage is made much worse by low wages and a lack of paid apprentice programs. Mike has done a ton of work to expose the arrogant attitude toward trade workers but it is the wage disparity that is creating these attitudes. Double the wages and you will slowly double the new workers. The idea that an expensive college education is worth higher wages is wrong. Specialized work should command a higher wage but only if there is a shortage of labor. Many incompetent business managers are perpetuating the high wages because the need to justify their own wage when they hire. It's a self congratulating system that is nothing more than a good-ol-boy network. Layoffs are coming for the bachelor of science degrees.
My guys start at $20.... and they have zero desire to learn. It’s up to you to be hungry, ask questions, apply yourself and learn. Most guys I know are willing to invest in young guys. When I was a young guy coming up I expected to get paid a basic wage because it was known that I was learning on the job.
@@rjthomasindyusa What occupation are you paying $20 an hour?
@@rjthomasindyusa We can thank the Government-run public schools for this Zero desire. The attitude of "everybody gets a trophy" is killing desire.
@@ToIsleOfView I’m a remodel contractor in Northern Colorado. I paid two young guys $80 each for 3.5 hours of work last weekend. I pay my carpenter $35... he uses my tools. Carpenters get paid up to $55 per hour in 1099 positions.
@@ToIsleOfView "everybody gets a trophy" was invented For the parents and By the parents, kids have always seen through it.
When folks stopped working and quitting jobs at massive rate my welding business exploded.
Even started doing small forestry and custom land services work .
Best 41 minutes of my day. You both were great. Keep this going! We need it.
You fellas dont work in the trades,you both make $$ talking about how great the trade jobs are,if they are so good why are they so many available
Steve are you sure? I grew up in the trades and swung a hammer professionally for 20 years…. But tell me morw
Jobs are available because it’s not fashionable to work with your hands. People bought the lie that everyone needs to go to college.... and frankly.... young guys today are a different breed.
Labor shortages are a complicated topic.. I’ve been around oilfield construction, oilfield welding and underground construction for awhile now. I think the shortages are a product of several reasons:
Shortages of fathers in the household
Low starting wages
Less shop classes in schools
Social media
It’s damn hard work and physically demanding.
It’s dangerous
Long hours
Some of the trades are being overran by the low ballers.
I tried to keep my son away from wanting to be an auto mechanic and haven’t taught him to weld for a reason. I’d rather see him make living using his brain and not his back. If he wants to use some trades to help him along on a hobby, great. But not to make a living.
By no means am I saying my thoughts are right, it’s just my thoughts.
You may want to see him use his brain not his back.
But what are his VALUES?
My father and family wouldn't allow me to pursue electrical, forced college.
It drove me INSANE.
Now I had to start late at 25 to pursue what actually interests me.
You can make money welding without being a welder burning wire at age 50. You have to be smart and plan ahead.
Don't force inject values on your son.
Yes I have a degree in chemistry.
Yes I can also wire a house and weld a boat.
What about it?
It's better for your son to pursue physical work when young anyhow.
Yeah this is a good review that takes account of the whole instead of the "oh people are just lazy."
former oilfield. 15 years. did you forget to mention that the company men are all a**holes? or the the tool pushers are all a**holes? or thet the drillers are all a**holes? really just the whole lot. lunch? whats that. privacy?ha! your in a room with six sets of atheletes foot. safety? thats a word that is used often, and never followed through on.
the only thing i liked was working two weeks and having two weeks off.minus 2 days worth of driving. the pay was no better than anything else, but the ot was good until they changed the deffinition of what a week was, then i was out. not to mention the constant back stabbing, and scapegoating. there is no security in the oilfield, and i dont see that changing.
Also, I graduated from Marblehead High School in 1983. I took Technical Drawing….LOVED it!! My dad was a naval architect, among many other things, and I yearned to learn tech drawing bc I watched him as a little girl. In middle school, we had “wood shop”…..that was amazing too! What a SHAME, to discover that these VERY essential programs have been phases out…I had no idea and am, frankly, VERY DISAPPOINTED and heart broken. Women, especially need exposure to these programs….now more than ever. Thanks for the great discussion!
Excellent convo. Great questions, and I always love listening to Mike.
They Always talk about trade labor shortages but never talk about why. PAY!! NO BODY wants to pay from Corp America down to the homeowner, especially the homeowners. They will have 3k in car payments in the driveway and feel if you have 1 decent looking truck your charging and making too much. Dealt with it for 12 years you can have it. And I built the highest quality decks in the State. And don't forget who we compete against, The no license no insurance no WC, guys that bid the jobs for half.
Such a pleasure to consume this. Mike Rowe's outlook is so good.
The issue with the trades, pilots, and similar jobs is the general opaqueness to obtaining the job and the training, or job might rely too heavily on the employee to train themselves. For me atleast, it'll hard to convince a small town boy with no additional resources to move 300 to 500 miles for training. College is so much easier and job requirements are soo transparent.
I'm a former trades teacher who decided to go back to practicing my trade. To sum up my decision in a few words: poor pay, poor benefits, and using my program as somewhere to drop kids with behavior issues who do not want to be there. It was always so discouraging that I had to spend more time making sure the kids who were there causing problems weren't hurting themselves or others than I actually spent teaching the kids who were there to learn. With zero support from your administration who is too busy playing politics its unsurprising we have this problem in this country. I had a kid literally light a trash can on fire and he was back in class the next day. Couple that with the fact that as a framer I make $30k a year more and deal with less bs why would anyone be a teacher?
while kids like i was, who liked working with his hands, was lumped in with a ornery jaded teacher that would rather things were different and didnt take the time to find the difference.
Great podcast I’m older than dirt educated and still love to build-remodel WITH integrity no damn shortcuts.!!!!
Just listened to this awesome conversation on Spotify. So many real points!
Mike Rowe is an actor hired by lobbyists
It's refreshing to hear your thoughts on the issue.
I'm 72 years old. Rebutting her rant, I told my fifth grade teacher that everyone did NOT need to go to college as she had so strenuously stated. She was incensed that I would have the audacity to challenge her position. But I persisted, stating that society would need plumbers, mechanics, etc. That did not end well.
She was merely a product of her environment; namely the teachers union, which even in that early time, actively told students that they MUST stay in school.
I was self employed for forty years in the waterjetting industry, making things work.
That teacher's progeny is what we are now saddled with.
College was probably less expensive at that time. And high school doesn’t really give you much of a sample for anything.
So going to college and then taking up a trade isn’t a bad way to go.
Sometimes even military enlistment and learning a trade there is a good place to start, for the GI bill. Public education does not give anyone the sense that they are empowered.
@@NotShowingOff "Sometimes even military enlistment and learning a trade there is a good place to start, for the GI bill."
Becoming property of the government for 6 years minimum is a bad way to start, and that's assuming there's no war to fight.
The problem is that engineers don't have to work on the things they create. There doesn't seem to be any communication or input from labor or consumer when engineers design a product.
I really respect not beating the subs down on price. It builds loyalty especially when you only use them a few times a year
I work in construction, and I think it was about 19/20 years ago, I was on this job and this laborer was complaining about his auto mechanics labor prices. I said to him “you’re making $25/hour to push a broom and take out trash, and you’re bitching about a skilled tradesmen’s labor rates?”
Damn 20 years ago if you were making 25/hr you were making bank!
‘’It’s not blue collar or white collar ‘’ love this. I’m studying building engineering and recently got a job as an carpenter apprentice. I love both!
Last year my 17 year old son wanted to earn some money and asked his dad to teach him simple window repair stuff and handyman skills. He found companies desperate for workers to fix window issues and now works independently for 4 lumber yards and a few home builders. We live in an area will a huge housing boom so work was easy for him to find and. He started part time in Feb and quickly went to full time and will probably earn six figures by the end of the year. He works all day 6 days a week and can earn 500-1,000 a day just doing window reglazes and simple stuff. There’s no way he would ever go to college now lol. He enjoys being his own boss and doing man’s work
Pay us existing electricians more and the trades will become attractive . I would not recommend this line of work that I have been doing for 30 years to young people till people start to look and treat us better.
When I was a kid I would watch there goes a bulldozer everyday. Got into the field and after 5 years the pay wasn’t enough unless I worked 60-70 hours in the summer. Leadership was good at the foreman level but from supers up to the office level was awful. They have to get more trade schools. The older generation won’t teach the young anything.
Hello was watching this video and in the beginning you talked about 811 service. Here in west virginia I wanted to dig post holes and called 811. They came out and marked to the meter which by the road. My wife called them back and asked why they didn't mark further up the property where post holes were going. They're response was they only mark to meter. Our responsibility to hire independent to locate on property. Just saying. Thanks
Master auto technician 45 years (retired), it's the money, 50% of flat rate would be a start, like it was in the 80s, and 50% of parts markup, the industry is doomed.
WOW! SO glad that I tuned in to the show!
It's a different world today. Back in 1960, society was a big family like we're all in this together. People worked to take care of each other's needs. Nowadays we live in a world of personal distance and indifference where nobody wants to care about other people anymore.
Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts !
Great conversation. A little bit of history though, A touch on the trades.
I’m from the 90’s, Company’s would not touch you unless you had experience. They wanted you to pledge to them, And then all the layoffs over 20 years.
Now the older generation is retiring, Like what was mentioned, 5 retire, only 2 retain.
People are jaded. I’m curious how it will play out.
yeah, i remember when the old timers where talking crap about our generation. the haircuts,tattoos, piercings, the ripped jeans, the nirvana music, etc. now guess who turned out just like them? i think i finally got tired of the sweet home alabama too.
Nice video. As someone who studied philosophy at Oxford, and runs a cabinet shop, ( and is also pretty handy with a drywall knife or a tile saw) I liked your comments on the philosopher tradesman. But I think the problem is even bigger than just having too many old tradesmen retire and not enough new people entering the fields. The trades themselves are becoming much more complex. The old guys are not only retiring but many of them lack the organizational skills to keep up with changes in the industry. This is not their fault, as Twentieth century thinking on the nature of work is now obsolete. Twentieth century thinking on industrial organization was dominated by a Taylorist distinction between mental and physical work. Workers were the doers and managers were the thinkers. Workers were not supposed to think. The manager was the guy with the clip board, who made all the decisions. This may have been a reasonable division of labour when a framing crew on an home building project had six guys swinging hammers, and sawing , and one guy doing layout. But with new technology, this division of labour has become obsolete. Cutting, and nailing is virtually instantaneous. Once the important decisions, of what needs to be cut, where the nails need to be driven, with which tools, is made, the mechanics of the process are almost instant. So a good tradesman needs to be a self managing technician. The hammer swinger and the clip board guy all in one. And the pace of decision making is much faster, when for example a nail gun can shoot hundreds of nails a minute.
As far as I can tell this problem of the new complexity of work in the trades is not something that people are even seriously thinking about. I have seen some interest in applying Toyota style Lean thinking in construction, although as Paul Akers points out, this has only been adopted by a small minority of builders. And I have talked to kids out of trade school and architectural school who have never heard of Toyota production or Lean. And, in my opinion TPS and Lean, only scratch the surface of the complexity of a construction site. The Toyota system is a mass production system for a controlled factory environment. A construction site is a far more chaotic environment than a car factory. A construction site is one of kind project in a totally uncontrolled environment: either a hole in the ground or an old building.
In my experience I think we need tradespeople who can combine higher education level analytic skills ( whether or not they get these from a university) with finely honed manual mechanical abilities. If I could hire people like this, I could expand my custom cabinet shop very quickly. But as it is I turn down work every day. They are just not out there, or the few who exist are already set in their workplace.
As a result I am in the process of trying to develop training systems, both for the mechanical skills needed by new workers, and also for the kind organizational thinking needed to do the job well. You can see some of them on the Malcolm McGrath youtube channel if you are interested.
Cheers:
Look up an American named Demming . America failed to take notice when he tried to point out quality work/ training was the path to better productivity. He was invited to Japan to show his methods they embraced them and trounced American manufacturing.
@@charlespaine987 I have read Demming. He has some interesting ideas, which contributed to the quality movement and things like Toyota production system. However, I think his ideas are still very twentieth century.
@@skipmcgrath Demming was just a spark plug in the engine of change. We as a society still need to keep growing . Right now i am worried about the next generation ability to live in freedom.
@@charlespaine987 me too
I have a question, given your educational background. Did you ever find that you were treated poorly by tradespeople because of your education? In my experience there is a very strong anti-intellectual current in trades, and if they hear you've had an education they will never accept you as a real tradesperson.
Loved this dialogue with Mike. He paints the truth boldly. Parents are failing their children when they don't teach them work is.
I have to wonder what the quality used to be of the Cherokee brand of sweatshirt at Target. But I bought that shirt about 26 years ago and wore it almost daily through all my pregnancies. 3 Girls, one got married. They borrowed the heck out of that thing. Finally traded it for a sweater I really wanted (that I somehow got taken away from me as well lol) and now they use it like currency to trade for whatever coveted item one or the other has in their wardrobe, but has settled with my middle girl and no one has succeeded in getting it from her. She says it’s now a family heirloom that will be included in her will. Too bad Target stopped with that line.
In Jr. High I took woodwork shop, in high school I took carpentry. I don't work in construction, but I did acquire skills that I have used over the years that have saved me thousands. Vo-Tech needs to be re-instated in high school
When Nick was explaining on how some builders beat there subs down on price then they are out of commission hit home for me that's why I no longer work for only a handleful of builders that think like Nick does and doesn't want the quick and dirty and cheapest price out there ... Custom homes at a track home price doesn't work out real well for anyone especially the future home owner ..
Great conversation!
Sharon, there's few things more satisfying than multitasking,a job well done.
Glad you could do an interview with Mike. He's a great spokes person for the skill trades.
I got an 8 yr. Associates degree yet they didn't want to pay me what I was worth so I ended up cleaning rest rooms & or park toilets for the County & the City. With both I made $29 an hr.! Single mom (doing my own hair, nails & repairs on car & house) yet They say I made to much to get assistance yet I was working check to check. Sometimes having to borrow $40-60 a month to get bills paid & I'm very conservative w/no credit cards & even stopped using microwave & coffee pot to save on electric. Was forced to move so lived in car or homeless shelter. Now I can't get a job for not having proof of residency to get new car Tags in order to get a job to get by. Go figure, guess I live on wrong side of wall.
You got paid exactly what you were worth. Having a degree doesn't automatically make you valuable to a company.
Fantastic conversation, appreciate what you both are doing!
I would loved to seen Brent Hull, who is an expert in historical architecture and methods of the past, been apart of this panel.
Mike Rowe only played a tradesmen on TV. he's a TV host with a degree in communications. Wearing a blue shirt doesnt make you blue collar. He does advocate for trades though.
I think being an advocate is what he claims to be. Nothing wrong with that
Big facts, I am a Millwright and it makes me cringe listening to a T.V. host pretend to be a blue collar worker. He has no idea what he is talking about, "bRiNG sHoP ClAss BaCk" such a white collar boomer.
You. Have me on a roll now…..I have a BS and an MBA. I was thinking of going to law school or nursing school or architecture school…..an effort in defining my post-divorce life. But just in the last few days I have decided to look into getting my certifications/licenses in plumbing and electrical. I mean I can DO most plumb/elec jobs now, but I wouldn’t do larger jobs. But how great! Single woman, owns her own home, can repair her own house, doesn’t need to wait for “a man” to have a free appt to
Look at whatever job I need WIN, WIN for me!! Yes???
It generational. My dad showed me how to work..I'm grateful that I have a great trade screen printing in a town where all my competition is dying out...and my son will take over the business someday.
My brother was six years older than me and got to go to vocational school. When it was time for me to go, the school had shut down 😑
Work ethic and never stop learning/growing. Those helped me excel in my career.
What is the wage earned in Germany, Switzerland and South Korea vs the United States? For the "trades"? Median cost for a house in california is what? $400-800 thousand dollars. Rents are $2-4000 a month depending where you live. Until people can see a path to the ability to build a life the people will "lie flat" to borrow a term from china. Can people who work in the trades in those other countries afford to build a life and have a family? Basic living wage in the SF bay area is $30 an hour? After taxes 8hrs x $30 x 5 days x 4weeks x 12 months = 57600 / 4 x 3 "taxes 25%" = 43200 take home or $3600 a month. That sounds like a lot of money to a 20 something but you aren't going to build a family on $30 an hour. And the trades wage growth flattens out at the same time a person's body starts to fail them. Then what? See there is not a "seeable" path to prosperity. Or I am just missing it.
Great conversation.
Great conversation! Two of my favorites! “Slow and expensive”…great comment!
In my area of southern California, 811 is useless for homeowners. They only mark to the property line, and only if you identify, and mark, where you are planning to dig.
Where I used to live, in central Illinois, it was very helpful when I was laying out where to put gardens in my back yard. They marked the whole back yard, and I could *choose* where to dig, to avoid a shallow telecom line.
I’d love to see a coffee break on how you made the leaps at different points in your business. We all know the solo carpenter to whole house remodel with your cousin. How do you keep taking on bigger jobs and ensure that you have the man power to complete these jobs. Is it just taking advantage of having a good sub contractor relations? We’re you doing all the work still back then? Would love to hear your story or opinion of how you would do it now if you went back and knew then what you know now. Thanks. Long time fan.
"labor shortage". How about pay living wages for these $500,000 necessities?
Having skill based hobbies used to be the norm but today people don’t seem to have the patience and desire to learn new skills.
Hello NS builders. I am also in the Boston area, and I watch your videos. I have a textbook success story I would love to share with mike Rowe. I went to a trade school in high school, and in short, became a millionaire in my mid forties. How do I get in touch with him? Thanks.
Love the video Mike👍
This is when you jump ship every year to maximize your wages. Loyalty does not pay!
My friend has a full carpentry shop with all powermatict tools I he got from the local high school.... so sad
Construction industry in general is stuck in an old model and resists change at every opportunity. Although there's been many material and tooling innovations the basic process has not. Precision construction focused on longevity, indoor air quality, net zero still rare. Industry can and imo definitely will do better!
what a great dialogue
Dear Mike Rowe
I want to work with you. Now I am in Malaysia. My jobs is plumbing.
The computers are the future. That is what everyone was saying 10 to 20 years ago. I think everyone moved towards that. And forgot about the tradesmen.
We will never not have craft. So i disagree. It’s both.
I have been in computing since 1967! When the PC came along, I learned them and fixed them and as networking started, designed them. The fixing both hardware and software is a craft, I was trained with electric and electronics! Still good. If you want building trades check out the electricians.
My neighbor hit a gas transfer line with an excavator and he had oops check on it first too 😢
Hi there - new to the channel.
I'm from Denmark. I have had those 4 years you saw in Switzerland. Well - back it up 25 years, it wasn't as high tech, but still - the task you stood with in your hand is basically the same we had, except xeroxing in color was too expensive back then. I started out by chance, not really exactly knowing what I wanted back then, but school certainly wasn't it. Had enough already by 5th grade. Not that I was bad at it, but it just bored me to death. The sentence "it'll be good to know later in life" just about made me hurl. It did not make sense. Had they told me, that you need to learn abc because xyz, I'd probably have listened harder, like how you need history to make sure you're not helping the world turn to shit by accident - that would probably have helped. Then again - maybe not. A lot of history has only been uncovered since the internet took off. It wasn't a thing yet. At all.
I started tech college and was there for the first 10 weeks. It was cool. I liked it. Drawing, making stuff... Stuff that made sense. And so after the first 10 weeks, you could either stay for another 10 to finish the full first part, or go get an apprenticeship, and come back for the remaining 10. Got an offer, after applying all over, showing up. This was with a commercial builder, and... It never quite grabbed the way it was supposed to. But, in for a penny, in for a pound. So shopping malls, grocery stores, breweriy, nursing homes, apartment buildings. That was all the order of the day. And I hated it. Big loud concrete structures with endless miles and miles of sheetrock, steel studs and insulation gallore, with the odd little trim job evwry once in a while. Installing doors and windows... Endured the 4 years, and thought: never again! So I took up the theoretical path again. There is an education called constructor, sort of the missing link between the airy thoughts of the architect, and the bone hard math of structural engineers. Realize the drawings to work on site, do material calculations , work out site planning, time estimates etc. It went south. School still wasn't for me. So I helped out the old man for a while, trying to figure out what to do, and realized - hey! It's not that bad after all! I was just sick and tired of doing a meaningless job at record pace, that nobody really appreciated anyway.
The opportunity came up to go to the Pacific Northwest with a GC for 18 months, and I took it. Custom home building. Lots of wood, great crew, hand cut roofs, doing our own form work, siding and trimming. That turned everything upside down. To see what can be achieved by very basic means, and doing it with a great crew. Since then, I've been a carpenter first.
Piecework was never my thing. I guess that is why I hated my time as an apprentice so much, so I've since gravitated towards one offs and troubleshooting, which I did for about 5 years until the stock market crashed. Then there was nowhere to go in construction. Nobody was hiring. Sales went down 90% for the outfit I was in - could just as easily have killed them off, but they managed. For me it meant something else. Wind turbines. Blades and later on generators. Being large part of an in-house training program even - let's face it: most are not equipped to do structural glass fiber repair from the outside world! But I missed my lumber! Especially since it was such a toxic environment. Turbine blades are NOT made from strawberry jam, in case anyone had any doubts. They're designed to be hammered and pounded at wingtip speeds closing in on 190mph for 20+ years. Unfortunately there is a direct link to the building industry, and the ever faster pace sets higher demands, not only on people, but on materials too. On wonder after the other is churned out each and every single day. New and improved! Anti fungi caulking, stainless carpet, scratch free laminate flooring, unrottable Hardie siding, fire resistant mineral wool, fire retardants, softeners for rubber, anti aging membrane.... It.is.all.junk!
So I made another shift. Decided to go back to the roots, where crafts were accessible for anyone, there wasn't any monopoly on this, that or the other system, but the deciding factor was what you did with the material at your disposal. Very little, if anything, was waste. Cutoffs would be used for bracing, pegs or chinking. What was then left over, you'd cook and stay warm with. Everything was a ressource. Everything was made to be able to repair. Not so anymore. Any of the above listed items quits on you, it's game over. Junk. Replace with new. The industry loves that. Means a steady cycle of consumption. As a responsible craftsman however, I cannot endorse that mindset. They're holding every single one of us hostage. We cannot continue that path. We cannot afford to leave our junk to future generations to deal with in every single corner and animal on the globe. Rob them of democracy. Because the crafts are democratic. Anyone is free to participate.
So. Now I'm full circle. Back to the timber framing the gentle start at tech college presented me to many years ago. As you can probably tell, a lot of realizations were necessary for me to get here. Restoration is the name of the game. Why should it be thrown away, just because it's 2-500 years old, and in dire need of some TLC?
I am truly sorry for the rant, but I felt like some background was necessary, when I now tell you you hit the nail on the head in this video. Again and again and again! I have gone through my share of construction videos on this media, and this is by far the most relevant. Why won't craftsmen recommend their trade to future generations? Because they're being pissed and spat on in most cases. Figuratively and literally. The ones remaining are those who either have no choice, or those who can't help it. Same difference. But we're not going to be here forever. And we can barely make it as is. How to make best use of a master tradesman?
Anyway - loved the video. Keep this going. In the public, in politics. Stress the importance of why, what, who and how. But as anything that has to come out good: It can't be rushed!
Facts about schools they have become indoctrination centers. High schools train students for nothing. High schools send 20% to college then the college has to spend first year teaching how to study . The 80% of high schooler are unprepared for any kind of work. Trade schools send 80% to college and they are ready to learn. Trade schools are incredibly hard to get into because they “cherry pick “ students completely missing the student’s that need the most training. In 7th grade I had wood shop in another school ,no lie we walked about 1/4 mile I learned to sharpen tools made picnic tables ,a small cabinet for a radio . Their excuse for ending shop was liability “child danger”. I speak from experience. I,m a air craft engine ,gear box mechanic, tool &die machinist ,inspector , HVAC mechanic . I consider myself as an eternal apprentice, don’t stop learning until the undertaker closes the lid.