Funny thing is I have been using builds that open up with oracle before the change.. and I have been winning most games. Open up with oracles, 2end hit with 3 voids + the same two oracles during the first hit.. then from there it depends. I have another kind of strange build that oddly has worked a few times and that is rush Mothership + getting Carrior + a void ray and attacking with that. You might be shocked how often doing that will throw people off lol.
interesting changes for most races, but really that extra speed upgrade for the oracle just means it will have to sit outside the base longer getting energy -_- not sure i like the terran upgrade consolidation, i feel like having separate weapon upgrades was a good check for terran. Its already super easy for terrans to swap out reactors and tech labs to get the right counters for higher tier zerg and protoss units, having them be a little weaker when first switched to was a pretty important factor i feel.
Ugh shitty, they actually REDUCED the Tank buff by 0.1, when pretty much the consensus on the forums was it has to be reduced to 2.5, not 2.7 to really make a difference. Lame as all Hell. Oracle buff is also crap, just means Toss can cheese with proxy stargate even quicker. Thanks Blizzard, how about moving Anion Pulse Crystals to Cyber Core so Protoss can deal with Mass Muta a little easier? The only *good* things in this patch are Combined Upgrades and Roach Buff. WM nerf is a step in the right direction, but has to be followed up with a Muta nerf (take away regen) and buff Phoenix more.
@malacite dude, tanks were already great at dealing damage, if something should be changed about them is movement speed, i would really like to see them buffed where they sufferd the most not where they're already great at (dealing masssive splash damage). this will make tvt even more stale and boring since now is very hard to stim and take them out with bio between tank shots. however i agree completely on oracle buff, it's stupid and will make toss allin more but still won't make them useful after you get 1 or 2 out.
when phoenix is first available in the earlier stage of the game, there's already almost nothing that the zerg can do against them. nerf muta and buff phoenix? phoenix already hard counter muta...
tensai9999 they didn't buff phoenix in this patch. phoenix is strong vs muta and good at mid game harass but nothing more. opening stargate into phoenix makes toss super vulnerable to almost any kind of push, and it takes a while until you get at least 4 (so you can snipe a queen in 1 lift). and your harass is limited by the energy (which is very very limited early on). 4 phoenix is 600/400 and 8 supply. if you attack as soon as you get them and get probes on every graviton beam you'll get about 6 workers (300 mins). if he's zerg, he'll just make an extra round of drones since he knows you won't have enough army for a push and he's already ahead since stargate puts you behind in tech/upgrades etc. the sole reason in getting phoenixes vs zerg is to discourage muta play and get some map control killing few ovies or lifting units from watchtowes.
andrei87x Phoenix are only really good vs Muta with the +2 range though, and that upgrade should really be on the Cyber Core. By the time you can reasonably tech to a Fleet Beacon, the Zerg will have a sizeable mutaball - generally too large for Phoenix to realistically deal with. Remember, they only outrange muta by 1 by default so 1 missclick can mean death from the glaive wurm splash. Plus as others said if you over commit on Phoenix you'll just get overrun by lings and roaches. I'd like to see skytoss buffed a bit more in general to make it more interesting. The Phoenix doesn't need a direct buff, just move the +2 range to the Cybernetics Core and remove the Fleet Beacon requirement for Tempest (while also reducing the build cost and their HP - they're usually too expensive to get in time to respond to the threats they counter, and they have unrealistically high HP to the point that units like Vikings that are supposed to kill them, can't) Mutas don't need the regen buff anymore. Good Z players already circumvented mines with the Overseer buff, and now that their splash has been cut significantly the Regen is a bit much for both P & T to deal with. Thors are still an impractical counter to mass muta, and unless P opens SG they won't have enough phoenix in time (and with the regen buff they kinda crap on Stalkers now).
That's the tiniest of possible nerfs for the widow mine. Still op as fuck They should have made it unable to hit air units. Honestly, the fact that one of those things by itself is better than a missile turret is ridiculous.
Hrm, no surprises in the patch based on their test map. I don't think oracles will be used more, they're still expensive and too fragile for late game use against m&m...I still think people will have trouble fitting the moving burrowed roaches into all of this, I don't think that will change much. . Think you'll see slightly more m&m+tanks instead of mines. Hopefully that will balance it a bit and remain pretty balanced.
Burrowed Roaches are also a good counter to Protoss Forcefields. you might not like the strategy, don't know why you don't also don't care, but its a good strategy and Zerg need every edge they can get in these Protoss dominant Tournaments.
fatearcher That's true that they need an edge. Going under force fields is risky. I find burrow just takes too much time and they usually have an observer. The main problem for Zerg is that Roaches and Hydras take up too much supply.
right now the oracle is a dead end way to go alot of the time, usually its better just to go pheonix. its just a little more of a gamble to get them usually, people dont wanna take the risk. thats why noone uses em.
Now.. I do not understand the tank change. Friend of mine mains Terran and does not notice the difference, at all. I can not say much due to its rare for me to use tanks when I go Terran. ( I either go bio, or bio with either wm/hellbats, or I go Thor/hellbat/marine but most of the time I go sky-Terran. ) As far as the Zerg change. Should be interesting. When I do use roaches,especially against Terran I would use it just to kill siege tanks by sneaking up on them if I can. ( In team games anyway. I am normally a big muta player. That or I go ling/ultra in 1v1s )
I'm fine with everything but the Oracle buffs. The whole point of balance is to diversity builds, by buffing less popular units while nerfing the overused ones. Oracles were fast enough as it is. Defending players could offset the damage of Oracle raids by killing them but with these new buffs, they'll nearly always be able to avoid ground units and get away.
if blizz wants to promote the oracle they MUST remove the energy for attack, its the UNIQUE unit that need energy for attack!! any terran unit or zerg need energy for attack as oracle does!! :/ and now terran has air and ground unit up grade together -_- l hope they put it for zerg and protoss aswell -_-
I'm not going to play SC until Oracle damage is nerfed... People tell me that I'm a newb if I die to oracle, and I usually don't, but 1 unit that can kill 20 workers in a blink of an eye-- I think it's quite broken. More health and less damage perhaps.
Can you not start a conversation with 'DUDE'? and no. I don't think a few marines kill an oracle. Unless you mean 5~6 marines clumped up together. Of course turret or mines are the way to go, and I know that. Just the fact that it has an ability to kill 20 workers in a blink of an eye if you didn't expect it, is broken in my opinion. Of course people then say, newb, just scout it better, but that's not my point. My point is that it just kills workers way too fast. GG if you're just slightly out of position.
TheCounterpointer Dude, quick bunker or turret or a few marines. If you know how to scout and do it early you will notice a missing pylon and heavy gas. Tall tale sign that you're being proxied. And I play Terran as my main race. And be glad you didn't play BW. One reaver shot would do the same amount of damage if not more and more difficult to stop then oracles.
the orical change is pretty useless its nice to have but oricals still cant deal with a turret or a spore which is ok but orical is useless from this point on so i think they should give it a spell that for example can heal a toss unit like the queen can
Yeah I don't see the point of the change to oracles. What does blizzard want their role to be? This seems to encourage oracle harass a bit which as you pointed out is shut down by static defence and this does nothing to further improve their synergy with the protoss army overall.
yeah, why not giving the oracle the ability to anti-EMP, that is instant shield-regen for a very small radius (maybe 2-3 units), so that when ghost are shutting down all shields and P would have to retreat, 1-2 oracles might reduce this a little. this would need even more macro together with HT and Sentries, but keep the oracle ingame.
They make vechile and ship upgrades together? That is crazy now terran will upgrade to easily. No 2 armories. They are nerfing to much it is annoying me now i cant use widow mines
OMG LOL i played a game of teamgames with 2 other friends and one of them went proxy oracles. OMG 2 of the terrans lost like 10-14 workers each. XD make sure to get a bunker at mineral line terrans :D
Why is everyone complaining about Terran getting ship and vehicle upgrades together? Zerg has flyer and ground upgrades, toss has air and ground unit upgrades, why should terran have infantry vehicle and air upgrades. Esp when sky terran isnt even that strong to begin with. I dont see the problem with grouping the upgrades, someone point it out to me please.
You aren't actually being serious are you? HISTORY LESSON! In Heart of the swarm beta terran ship/vehicle weapon and armor wer combined. That is: Vehicle/ship weapons combined, and vehicle/ship armor combined. Before the release of heart of the swarm there was much debate as to whether or not the weapons should be combined, and they eventually de-combined the ship/vehicle weapons before the release. This left terran with 5 upgrades. Count them with me now: 1-Infantry weapns 2-Infantry Armor 3-Vehicle weapons 4-Vehicle armor 5-ship Weapons With the new patch (which is live BTW) Terran has 4 upgrades. Count these now. 1-Infantry weapons 2-Infantry Armor 3-Vehicle/ship weapons 4-Vehicle/ship armor If you can't understand this, don't reply, please. The stupidity of these comments is driving me bonkers.
Good to hear your voice!
Dustin Browder..... just.... God. Terran's too good? What should we do, make them better? Yay!
You have no idea what you are talking about. This obliviously hurt Terran.
motherbrain i'm not sure that widow mine nerf killed biomine, we'll see~
tensai9999 maybe not killed, but made it less #1 tactic vs zerg, we'll see! :D
motherbrain Which is a good thing seeing as most pro zergs were struggling with that to the point where they just couldn't win.
what up hd~ love hearing your voice. Hope u stick around as long as u can.
right on rememberance day where we will all remeber the Op widdomines~
Yeah, about damn time, I basically stopped watching replays because I was sick of widowmines Op-ness.
Funny thing is I have been using builds that open up with oracle before the change.. and I have been winning most games. Open up with oracles, 2end hit with 3 voids + the same two oracles during the first hit.. then from there it depends.
I have another kind of strange build that oddly has worked a few times and that is rush Mothership + getting Carrior + a void ray and attacking with that. You might be shocked how often doing that will throw people off lol.
interesting changes for most races, but really that extra speed upgrade for the oracle just means it will have to sit outside the base longer getting energy -_- not sure i like the terran upgrade consolidation, i feel like having separate weapon upgrades was a good check for terran. Its already super easy for terrans to swap out reactors and tech labs to get the right counters for higher tier zerg and protoss units, having them be a little weaker when first switched to was a pretty important factor i feel.
Making all three races oped again thanks blizzard
Wouldn't that make them balanced?
***** Exactly.
***** 5 is greater than 2. 10 is greater than 2. 15 is greater than 2. Does that mean 15=10=5?
To be fair zerg only got a minor change to boost their usage of a unit + upgrade that isn't used much in the later stages of the game.
good to see you back HD, a subscriber since WOL Beta
Ugh shitty, they actually REDUCED the Tank buff by 0.1, when pretty much the consensus on the forums was it has to be reduced to 2.5, not 2.7 to really make a difference. Lame as all Hell.
Oracle buff is also crap, just means Toss can cheese with proxy stargate even quicker. Thanks Blizzard, how about moving Anion Pulse Crystals to Cyber Core so Protoss can deal with Mass Muta a little easier?
The only *good* things in this patch are Combined Upgrades and Roach Buff. WM nerf is a step in the right direction, but has to be followed up with a Muta nerf (take away regen) and buff Phoenix more.
But they didn't nerf mines as much as they had planned to, either...
Are you dumb?
@malacite dude, tanks were already great at dealing damage, if something should be changed about them is movement speed, i would really like to see them buffed where they sufferd the most not where they're already great at (dealing masssive splash damage). this will make tvt even more stale and boring since now is very hard to stim and take them out with bio between tank shots.
however i agree completely on oracle buff, it's stupid and will make toss allin more but still won't make them useful after you get 1 or 2 out.
when phoenix is first available in the earlier stage of the game, there's already almost nothing that the zerg can do against them. nerf muta and buff phoenix? phoenix already hard counter muta...
tensai9999 they didn't buff phoenix in this patch. phoenix is strong vs muta and good at mid game harass but nothing more. opening stargate into phoenix makes toss super vulnerable to almost any kind of push, and it takes a while until you get at least 4 (so you can snipe a queen in 1 lift). and your harass is limited by the energy (which is very very limited early on). 4 phoenix is 600/400 and 8 supply. if you attack as soon as you get them and get probes on every graviton beam you'll get about 6 workers (300 mins). if he's zerg, he'll just make an extra round of drones since he knows you won't have enough army for a push and he's already ahead since stargate puts you behind in tech/upgrades etc. the sole reason in getting phoenixes vs zerg is to discourage muta play and get some map control killing few ovies or lifting units from watchtowes.
andrei87x Phoenix are only really good vs Muta with the +2 range though, and that upgrade should really be on the Cyber Core. By the time you can reasonably tech to a Fleet Beacon, the Zerg will have a sizeable mutaball - generally too large for Phoenix to realistically deal with. Remember, they only outrange muta by 1 by default so 1 missclick can mean death from the glaive wurm splash. Plus as others said if you over commit on Phoenix you'll just get overrun by lings and roaches.
I'd like to see skytoss buffed a bit more in general to make it more interesting. The Phoenix doesn't need a direct buff, just move the +2 range to the Cybernetics Core and remove the Fleet Beacon requirement for Tempest (while also reducing the build cost and their HP - they're usually too expensive to get in time to respond to the threats they counter, and they have unrealistically high HP to the point that units like Vikings that are supposed to kill them, can't)
Mutas don't need the regen buff anymore. Good Z players already circumvented mines with the Overseer buff, and now that their splash has been cut significantly the Regen is a bit much for both P & T to deal with. Thors are still an impractical counter to mass muta, and unless P opens SG they won't have enough phoenix in time (and with the regen buff they kinda crap on Stalkers now).
That's the tiniest of possible nerfs for the widow mine. Still op as fuck
They should have made it unable to hit air units. Honestly, the fact that one of those things by itself is better than a missile turret is ridiculous.
Hrm, no surprises in the patch based on their test map. I don't think oracles will be used more, they're still expensive and too fragile for late game use against m&m...I still think people will have trouble fitting the moving burrowed roaches into all of this, I don't think that will change much.
.
Think you'll see slightly more m&m+tanks instead of mines. Hopefully that will balance it a bit and remain pretty balanced.
Why does Blizzard feel that balance = making everything faster? Pretty soon this game will be MLG only.
Yay for siege tanks!
How come Noobtoss gets a buff? It just won Blizzcon.
who gives a shit for blizzconnn ?
I guess you're a dumbass
Burrowed Roaches only used Gimmicky? Did you not see Jaedong end Dear with those burrowed Roaches? that shit was the bomb!
So one game out of how many million games?
yes, it only take 1 game.
fatearcher
You're right, it only takes 1 game for players to catch on and make burrowed Roaches totally useless.
Burrowed Roaches are also a good counter to Protoss Forcefields. you might not like the strategy, don't know why you don't also don't care, but its a good strategy and Zerg need every edge they can get in these Protoss dominant Tournaments.
fatearcher That's true that they need an edge. Going under force fields is risky. I find burrow just takes too much time and they usually have an observer. The main problem for Zerg is that Roaches and Hydras take up too much supply.
right now the oracle is a dead end way to go alot of the time, usually its better just to go pheonix. its just a little more of a gamble to get them usually, people dont wanna take the risk. thats why noone uses em.
Now.. I do not understand the tank change. Friend of mine mains Terran and does not notice the difference, at all. I can not say much due to its rare for me to use tanks when I go Terran. ( I either go bio, or bio with either wm/hellbats, or I go Thor/hellbat/marine but most of the time I go sky-Terran. )
As far as the Zerg change. Should be interesting. When I do use roaches,especially against Terran I would use it just to kill siege tanks by sneaking up on them if I can. ( In team games anyway. I am normally a big muta player. That or I go ling/ultra in 1v1s )
I'm fine with everything but the Oracle buffs. The whole point of balance is to diversity builds, by buffing less popular units while nerfing the overused ones. Oracles were fast enough as it is. Defending players could offset the damage of Oracle raids by killing them but with these new buffs, they'll nearly always be able to avoid ground units and get away.
That buff for oracles...sigh. GG Blizzard. You ruined it. Now to wait patiently for the next update.
on the ball
yay HD
if blizz wants to promote the oracle they MUST remove the energy for attack, its the UNIQUE unit that need energy for attack!! any terran unit or zerg need energy for attack as oracle does!! :/ and now terran has air and ground unit up grade together -_- l hope they put it for zerg and protoss aswell -_-
I'm not going to play SC until Oracle damage is nerfed... People tell me that I'm a newb if I die to oracle, and I usually don't, but 1 unit that can kill 20 workers in a blink of an eye-- I think it's quite broken. More health and less damage perhaps.
Can you not start a conversation with 'DUDE'? and no. I don't think a few marines kill an oracle. Unless you mean 5~6 marines clumped up together. Of course turret or mines are the way to go, and I know that. Just the fact that it has an ability to kill 20 workers in a blink of an eye if you didn't expect it, is broken in my opinion. Of course people then say, newb, just scout it better, but that's not my point. My point is that it just kills workers way too fast. GG if you're just slightly out of position.
TheCounterpointer Dude, quick bunker or turret or a few marines. If you know how to scout and do it early you will notice a missing pylon and heavy gas. Tall tale sign that you're being proxied. And I play Terran as my main race.
And be glad you didn't play BW. One reaver shot would do the same amount of damage if not more and more difficult to stop then oracles.
the orical change is pretty useless its nice to have but oricals still cant deal with a turret or a spore which is ok but orical is useless from this point on so i think they should give it a spell that for example can heal a toss unit like the queen can
Yeah I don't see the point of the change to oracles. What does blizzard want their role to be? This seems to encourage oracle harass a bit which as you pointed out is shut down by static defence and this does nothing to further improve their synergy with the protoss army overall.
yeah, why not giving the oracle the ability to anti-EMP, that is instant shield-regen for a very small radius (maybe 2-3 units), so that when ghost are shutting down all shields and P would have to retreat, 1-2 oracles might reduce this a little. this would need even more macro together with HT and Sentries, but keep the oracle ingame.
That seems like a reasonable ability for a support unit I would like to see how that plays out.
They make vechile and ship upgrades together? That is crazy now terran will upgrade to easily. No 2 armories. They are nerfing to much it is annoying me now i cant use widow mines
OMG LOL i played a game of teamgames with 2 other friends and one of them went proxy oracles. OMG 2 of the terrans lost like 10-14 workers each. XD make sure to get a bunker at mineral line terrans :D
RIP TERRAN
when they go to reduce storm damage? storm its a joke... so OP.
Finally nerfed mines
Widow mine patch talk: nerf or buff TvZ?
www.twitch.tv/massansc/c/3231346
Has it been nerfed?
GG
Hmm thought zerg would of got the most help :S
terren
OP
hahaha!
cast jaedong v sos.. really sad game 5 :(
"...basically..."
Why is everyone complaining about Terran getting ship and vehicle upgrades together? Zerg has flyer and ground upgrades, toss has air and ground unit upgrades, why should terran have infantry vehicle and air upgrades. Esp when sky terran isnt even that strong to begin with. I dont see the problem with grouping the upgrades, someone point it out to me please.
Because terran is the most broken race in the game. All you need to build as a terran in mmm while zerg and toos have to get higher tear units
Because now terran has 4 upgrades, wheras zerg and toss have 5.
Terran:
Ground weapons
Ground armor
Vehicle weapons
Vehicl armor
Zerg:
Melle attack
Ranged attack
Carapace
Flyer attack
Flyer Carapace
Toss:
Ground weapons
Ground armor
Shields
Air Weapons
Air Armor
The issue is they (Blizz) tried it before and had to change it back because it was imba.
***** Terran vehicle and ship armor were always combined in HOTS.
You aren't actually being serious are you? HISTORY LESSON!
In Heart of the swarm beta terran ship/vehicle weapon and armor wer combined. That is:
Vehicle/ship weapons combined, and vehicle/ship armor combined.
Before the release of heart of the swarm there was much debate as to whether or not the weapons should be combined, and they eventually de-combined the ship/vehicle weapons before the release. This left terran with 5 upgrades. Count them with me now:
1-Infantry weapns
2-Infantry Armor
3-Vehicle weapons
4-Vehicle armor
5-ship Weapons
With the new patch (which is live BTW)
Terran has 4 upgrades. Count these now.
1-Infantry weapons
2-Infantry Armor
3-Vehicle/ship weapons
4-Vehicle/ship armor
If you can't understand this, don't reply, please. The stupidity of these comments is driving me bonkers.
Plz cast dota 2!
BTW buffin protoss and nerfing terran AGAIN is making impossible to play terran
Zerg die if they are killed
#fixyoutube