Why You Can't Fix Apollo Justice
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- Опубліковано 5 лип 2024
- Apollo Justice doesn’t need fixing, but I’m gonna do it anyway. Or at least try. This video will be the first in a duo looking over the game Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney, and rewriting parts of it. In this video, I will go over the problems that people have with Apollo Justice, but I will go on to mention why you can’t really fix the game, at least not too much.
0:00 Intro
0:30 Is Apollo Justice Bad?
1:57 Apollo Justice as a “Protagonist”
5:03 The Game Peaks Too Early
9:44 Klavier is Underwhelming
12:18 The Ending Falls Flat
16:26 Why You Can’t Fix Apollo Justice - Ігри
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Man I really wish they did more with Klavier. He really could have been a counter to the dark age of the law, who does the right thing no matter what. Hell, they even seemingly set it up with him with how much he loses throughout the game. He loses one of his best friends and by proxy the core of his band, has to come to terms with the fact that he was almost had an innocent man sentenced to death (although he did end up running away), and has to help convict his brother for ANOTHER murder. Klavier is dumped on for the second half of the game, but instead of cracking like godot did, was able to stay cool and do the right thing. It feels like the game forgot that they made this great narrative tho, and dont show much of the conflict he probably had and it isnt expanded upon in later games. Its a real bummer too, since its refreshing to see a prosecutor thats introduced to not be a giant asshole that lies/cheats.
yes... his character arc could have been compelling, but it's like they figured it was enough to just have the ingredients for a character without really going through with the development. so wasted potential indeed.
Klavier is one of the most deep and complex characters in the franchise and the only thing I genuinely love about AJ:AA. He had so much potential, both for his own development and for dinamic with Apollo (as a man who is determined to seek the truth and help those in need, he could've become an irreplacable ally for Justice, like Miles did for Phoenix). And the devs just.. wasted it all. Such a shame.
I love the OST in Apollo Justice, I think they hit it right on the head and Apollo’s perceiving ability was a great touch and a good break from the magatama! But my main problem with AJ is that it doesn’t feel like Apollo’s game. It’s basically Phoenix and Kristoph’s game.
I liked the perceive mini game but it would have been nice if it was more clear where the nervous habit was. To me, the lack of the Magatama left the investigations feeling dull where they didn’t need to be. I completely agree about the soundtrack though, especially the cross examination theme.
Well, in the japanese version it has a '4' on its title.
I think maybe it should be a side story, but it doesnt bother me.
The games are all nip and tuck in terms of quality, i even like the Edgeworth games more as they are a bit more dynamic.
Yeah, I agree. Apollo Justice was my first Ace Attorney and I felt like I had no idea who Apollo was lol. Phoenix is the character that drives the story and he's the one trying to achieve anything. Apollo was just there. I didn't get that sense from any of the previous Ace Attorney games when I went back to play them.
@@xxProjectJxx AJ was my first game too and I remember thinking, “Ok, this guy is the main character, but why does he feel so overshadowed?”
I actually really like Apollo Justice. It’s got a tone that just hits the right amount of dark and sad, and charming and funny. The characters are really interesting, especially Phoenix and Trucy, and having a nice prosecutor as your rival. The ost also slaps.
I understand all the hate it gets but I loved the game and non of those were really deal breakers, I feel like people really nit pick this stuff right after they beat it.
Yeah agreed. I think the only real flaw is that Apollo doesn’t feel like as much of a focus as Phoenix and Kristoph, even though the game is literally called Apollo Justice. We don’t really get any insight into his path to becoming a lawyer until SoJ…even though that should’ve been established HERE in his intro game (like it was for Phoenix in HIS intro game)
i think this game has those elements, for sure. its certainly an intriguing framework, but the execution is so poor and all over the place that its really jarring for someone to play it after the trilogy. I have absolutely no nostalgia for these games, as i played them all within this year for the very first time. And I understand what AJ was trying to do, but I just feel like it misses the mark for so many of the things it tries to set up. its really unfortunate. I can see why someone would like it, i just dont see how someone would think that criticisms of it are "nitpicks" because to me, it seems its issues are plain as day.
My favorite game of the whole series, it's a masterpiece.
This is literally my favorite ace attorney game
I feel like the story could’ve gone more in depth into how the imprisonment of Kristoph effected Apollo and Klavier. Apollo being Kristoph’s protege, and Klav being his brother. There was no emotional elaboration on how any of those two felt besides a couple lines. There could have been so much more angst and heartache added to the story to fit the darker tone. Klav could have been a little more salty towards Apollo because he got his BROTHER ARRESTED.
I would have liked to have the middle two cases be more story driven, like have Kristoph still manipulate the crimes from prison, or even the actual criminals themselves. Then in the final case, have those criminals, with evidence of course, pin Kristoph for being the mastermind of those crimes. Dont know how’d they pull it off at the moment, but it would be a great twist.
In an online parody of AA, Elements of Justice, the story eludes to a mastermind manipulating the crimes. There is always a sense of mystery in the cases. AJ could have done that.
I also like the idea another commenter said, have Kristoph be the overarching twist villain that gets revealed at the end of the game. Give subtle nods to the manipulation and twisted nature of him. In this scenario, your investigative partner could switch investigation day to day between Kristoph and Trucy. Each having a different way of getting information; Kristoph being more callus and manipulative, Trucy being empathetic and joyful.
Back to Klavier, he could have been so much better. His character as we know him is surface level, without any depth. GIVE MY BOY SOME CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT DAMMIT!!!
Well said. They could have definitely found a way to have Klavier still be mostly reasonable and nice while make him resentful towards Apollo's hand in imprisoning of his brother (which would also parallel Ema's resentment of Klavier himself for his hand in Wright's disbarrment).
And I really like your idea of Apollo switching back and forth between Kristoph and Trucy as his investigative partners!
the idea of a mastermind manipulating crimes was sort of covered in one of the side games tbf, but to go into what it did and didn't do right would be spoilers for a game not covered in the video
My friend made a much better version regarding Kristoph's relationship with Apollo and Klavier. First she made that the game started with simply Apollo and Kristoph's filling the role of Mia for him, and it felt almost like the first game all over again, but some things were different, like unlike Mia who relied more on bluffs, Kristoph's methods felt more confident and while he helped Apollo a lot, he felt more involved, interjecting and objecting more often than Mia who took a more guiding approach as she lets Phoenix do almost all of the work as a way to let him grow. This would make Apollo feel more inadequate as a defense lawyer, thinking that he's still a kid hiding behind Kristoph's shadow, but he strove to be a great defense lawyer, in his words, as she put it, "be a better defense attorney than 'him'..."
This is then revealed in the next case as then we discover that Phoenix's had his disgraceful disbarment, which ruined his reputation. Apollo admired Phoenix a lot, he was his reason that he wanted to become a defense attorney, so he felt absolutely betrayed when he heard about the news, so he clung onto Kristoph as a result as he viewed Kristoph like partial surrogate idol figure as part of coping. However, in this case I feel that this is where Apollo meets Trucy, as his client as she asked him for help on behalf of Eldoon, taking elements from Turnabout Corner, and she became his assistant for awhile until he found out she was Phoenix's (adopted) daughter, which then caused Apollo to have a crisis of faith, wondering if he should go on with her case or not. However, Kristoph assured Apollo to continue with the case, but rather than out of belief for the client like Mia's creed, Kristoph's felt more... self-centered, in a way, as it leaned more towards personal achievement than out of helping others, as the first sign that there was some darkness lurking underneath his kindness.
This then culminated in Turnabout Trump, which then became the penultimate case of the game, where Apollo was truly being tested, whether he should believe in Phoenix, or his mentor that's been with him for so long. This is also a perfect point for Phoenix to show his growth, as he then asked Apollo, did he trust his client the same way he trust Kristoph, challenging Apollo why he became a lawyer, while smiling a bit sadly when Apollo still wanted to trust Kristoph, as Phoenix knew the feeling of wanting to trust someone that was guilty, and gave Apollo a subtle warning that that kind of faith will not help him grow as a lawyer, hinting that Phoenix had fully understood what Edgeworth told him back in the second game, where the truth is what they need to strive for, not victory.
My problem with Apollo is that he had no goals and no motive to become a lawyer throughout the whole game. It sad that there some characters that would make better protag than Apollo
AJ-era Ema Skye would've definitely made a much better protagonist than Apollo Justice in his debut game for sure!
Hence why it still annoys me to no end that Capcom swapped from Ema to Edgeworth for AAI, as fantastic AAI2 was...
@@juanyusee8197 Ema skye literally carry apollo justice and would been better protag
@@juanyusee8197 I like your idea…. I always loved Emma skye, her theme was amazing, and she was who I mainly liked in the whole game consistently. Ema should’ve been a main 🎊
@@FlowMoon__3 Same here! Plus unlike Apollo, Ema is one of the new characters who actually have a strong connection to Phoenix Wright, and does have actual goals and desires (being a forensic scientist), in addition to being a detective, thus she would've made for a much better character to help unravel the truth behind Wright's disbarment than Apollo.
@@bunnyartz6 Yup, and as I mentioned, not only Ema has actual goals and desires (to be a forensic scientist), she also actually has connections to Phoenix Wright (unlike Apollo), which in addition to being a detective, would make her a much better character that could help unravel the truth behind her friend's disbarment and clear his name, especially given the personal stake she has here (which again, Apollo lacks here).
The funny thing is, when you look at it in retrospect, Apollo's reason for being involved is like, RIGHT there: if his story in AA6 was present in AA4. Because 1) it's just plain interesting, 2) it gives Apollo a stronger reason for being a lawyer and weaves him into established AA lore, and 3) it makes Phoenix's goals a LOT more pertinent to Apollo's goals. Actually, it gives them the SAME goal: reformation. That's a pretty juicy starting point.
Tie that in with the frustratingly-relevant-but-only-implied conflict between Apollo and Phoenix (that for Phoenix, "justice" is about trust, like Mia taught him, but for Apollo, justice is about truth and evidence) and you have yourself a really compelling narrative. Unfortunately, time is linear, so all we can do is sort of imagine Apollo's retconned backstory into existence at the beginning of his story.
Excited for part two :]
I guess you could say AA6 is sort of like a fix fic (but official) for AJ, but one that adds to Apollo's storyline rather than heavily contradicting what's in AJ.
While I played SoJ I kept thinking all of the time "imagine if Apollo always had this backstory and they didn't just make it up suddenly after a bunch of other stuff had been established". It COULD have made him such an interesting character, not only by grounding his relationship to the law and being an attorney to the story of his father but also through his relation to the Feys, who have always been such an important part of Phoenix's life and career. Just imagine Trucy and Athena are around, then Pearl shows up to visit and Apollo is weirdly super formal and reverent towards her for "no discernible reason". He'd only need to call her "Mystic Pearl" and nothing else and it'd already be such a great hook into that whole story
Honestly my main problem of this game is pretty much how Phoenix stole Apollo's thunder at the end. This is supposed to be Apollo's debut game and of course trying to build him into a strong defense attorney. You think he will be the one that would take down Kristoph once and for all, but nope. Phoenix had to do it. Trust me I don't mind Phoenix being in this game and hell, I like his more "lax" personality. However, in a game that is named after Apollo himself, he should've been the one to defeat the final boss. I know Phoenix had Mia help him out in a lot of case, but he did pretty much took down Manfred by himself
Yup. It also made the title of "Turnabout Succession completely misleading and meaningless, since Apollo did *nothing* to "succeed" Phoenix Wright in the end.
Turnabout Sisters: The Game.
It wasn’t a big problem for me, I didn’t care kristoph was a good villan
Why should we care ? That's not a competition between characters, phoenix is the experienced one, he did a great job defending himself and Appolo had good moments too, at the end of the day the title of the game is just a title.
@@heroe1486But it doesn't change that Apollo is the most uncharacteristic character in the game. Phoenix far superior as a protagonist not only Phoenix even Miles was a better protagonist
I disagree about turnabout succession. For one, this is why I personally cared about Vera:
Firstly, the first thing you hear as you take control of apollo is that the defendant is most likely guilty. Of course, you know that Vera is innocent, but this is coming from phoenix wright. It makes you feel like you’re not supposed to care about Vera, so when the game hits you with the “thank you… for taking my case…” with a big smiley face on the board, you suddenly feel really bad for her.
And secondly, she’s the unfortunate one caught in the middle of the game between phoenix and kristoph, along with drew. But at least drew knew what was going on. Vera was a child when she forged the notebook and suddenly her father is dead, she’s blamed for the crime, it’s being used as a test, and she almost dies from atroquine poisoning.
Moving on from Vera, I think kristoph is the coolest villain in the series. His breakdown is in my opinion the best in the series (possibly tied with von karma) and his plan was the smartest out of any villain. He could have been cooler if he either got away in turnabout trump or was developed more as a mentor figure but as of right now he’s great.
In summary, I’m not denying the problems you mentioned but it wasn’t enough to stop turnabout succession from being a great case for me.
As flawed as it is, I enjoyed Apollo Justice! If I recall, it was the first Ace Attorney game I ever owned.
It was mine too :) I saved up to buy it on the Eshop with my allowance money lol
My biggest problem with the game was that...
...it revealed its best twist (the mentor being the villain behind it all) way too early in the game, which pretty much destroyed any chance for the player to bond with him throughout the game, making his involvement in the final case and his motivation lacklustre and fall completely flat on its face. Because of this I tend to liken this game as a poker player that used up its very best card at the start of the game.
By contrast, while I do have a few issues with the twist villain for Dual Destinies (mainly that the previous cases could have done a better job foreshadowing about it) IMHO it was a lot more well-done than Kristoph since we the players actually got to know Fulbright (or at least so we thought), making the reveal in the final case having an actual effect beyond simply the initial shock value.
I see your point, but the hard part in DD is that Fulbright is absolutely insufferable and I resented every part of the game he was in before we accuse him XD
@@VileLasagna Fair, I thought he was fine, but as a detective he's definitely nowhere near as great as Gumshoe or AJ+SOJ Ema IMO haha
@@juanyusee8197 I found him way too annoying. It IS kinda fun to see Athena manipulating him left and right but it gets old quick, imo. Plus, she's already a new character who is super hyper. Fulbright being that too was a bit much, lol. Also can't believe they spent the whole game without Apollo making the pun with his name in order to confuse Fulbright. Justice... never came
I disagree with these comments. In my opinion, dual destinies needed some comic relief beyond some wisecracks from the main characters and Athena’s (admittedly pretty funny) maya-like shenanigans and bobby fulbright fit the bill perfectly. His occasional jumpscare moments were pretty funny and Athena manipulating him throughout the game was funny while also downplaying how much power Fulbright actually had. Thus, in my opinion, the twist is pulled off almost perfectly. My only problem with it is that the nameless and faceless phantom is nowhere near as great a villain as serious Fulbright was.
@@Officewaffle Agreed especially in regards to the last point. The gut punch from the Fulbright reveal would also have been even stronger had it been the real Fulbright that was the villain behind it all.
You can't fix it because the sequel decided to ignore most of the ideas AJ planted and never went anywhere with, here, that's it.
This. The fact that they dropped every single interesting plot point from AJ in favor of returning to the status quo makes me so mad, especially concerning the characters.
E.g. had Ema not gotten her character development in AJ, she would've gotten the Pearl treatment and just been her 16 y/o self stuck in a 27 year old woman's body
DD and SoJ take AJ from being "a bit weak" to "terrible" by shitting on every point that game raised
I hope that games 5-7 can be the 2nd trilogy and AJ can be part of a 3rd trilogy where it explains everything
I actually strongly disagree with this mindset. IMHO the fact that many players found Apollo Justice's storyline and ideas as a mere set-up for future games is actually much more damning to AJ as a game than it is damning to DD and SOJ. The OG Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney was able to tell a fantastic story that already works well as a standalone game without needing its sequels to make its storyline good, AJ should have been able to do the same at the bare minimum.
@@juanyusee8197 I get that feeling, sure. The plot of AJ barely involves Apollo (whereas Phoenix is more important in PWAA even though it's not HIS story there because of how they set up his relationship to Miles) and IS clumsily conducted for sure, no arguments there. But I think that in isolation, AJ is middling, with some harsh lows. What makes it TERRIBLE is that break in continuity and at that point it's "out of AJ's hands" so to speak.
Say if after all that happened in PWAA, Miles never learned, he became just like Von Karma, but also he was secretly trained, at the same time, by some other Prosecutor. But in T&T we then find out the truth that he was trained by Von Karma AND Von Karma 2 but ALSO was secretly a Fey. But not Maya, tho. She was actually a child who ran away from the Big Berry Circus because she was scared of Leo the Lion. But the only person who remembered her is the Circus Director who dies in JFA without telling anyone or leaving any sort of record
If Phoenix's trilogy went like this, PWAA would just sound like weird nonsense. The things that were raised in PWAA as plot points and central character moments just kept getting rewritten. So if Miles was actually a secret Fey, what was the point of Gregory's entire beef? And what has the circus to do with anything Maya?
AJ ends up feeling like that because of how DD and SoJ won't follow up. Conversely, Phoenix's trilogy sticks with DL-6 to the very end and builds on top of it.
I will say that Zak Gramarye fucking disappearing from the courtroom in 4-4 was hilariously memorable for me but I don't know whether thats for the right reasons or not
IDIOT judge attempts to call defendant who DOESN’T EXIST guilty! (Gone wrong)
My ideas
Turnabout Trump:Let Kristoph escape to set up the dark age of the law where criminals get away, and it makes the finale even scarier, because if you fail he might take revenge against you.
Turnabout Corner:It can stay the same, it’s just to set up Trucy and Klavier. But have Klavier, ya know… give a shit that you ruined his brother’s reputation with “false” charges.
Turnabout Serenade:Have characters call out how stupid the case against Mochi is and have Klavier really need to work hard to convince the judge his case is more credible than yours.
Turnabout Successor:Instead of the Mason System have Apollo watch the old trial and investigate what happened after himself, have him discover his past and his relationship with Trucy, then have him decide if he wants to tell Trucy or not, leave it ambiguous. Did he tell her and she didn’t care? Did he keep the secret? The fans decide why they don’t act that different by Duel Destinies and Spirit of Justice.
Spoilers
Phoenix and Thalassa did keep their relationship as brother and sister even in Spirit of Justice, though it is hinted in AA6 ending about telling about it.
How... exactly does the plot of Misham/Vera fall into all of this? The whole argument for Kristoph not being able to poison either due to his solitsry confinement just... falls apart.
The whole stamp/poison motif falls flat.
I think your "fix" for this plot just makes it worse. Especially since you want for Kristoph to just... go away free.
Knowing what he did to Phoenix and Zak for defying him, what exactly do you think Kristoph would do to Apollo and Phoenix for defying him? I can see him doing nothing short of murder.
@@reaperz5677 He just claims to not know them and falls behind “No matter how much sense it makes, until there is direct evidence, you can’t beat me”
But when Vera survives she’s willing to tell everything. He failed to kill her and her testimony will end his entire crime spree.
While Turnabout Serenade is DEFINITELY the weakest case in the game (and one of the weakest in the series), there is one thing I liked about it. It feels like the one case in the game where Apollo wins by himself. When I go back to the other cases, all of them (at least to some extent) feel like Apollo is being led with a carrot and stick, usually by Phoenix (though to a lesser extent by Trucy as well at times). But in Serenade, it doesn’t feel like Apollo is being led; he makes his own choices and deductions, and ultimately is able to win almost entirely by his own merits. Not the strongest argument (if anything it kinda reinforces the issue of Apollo’s character not being defined enough) but it’s still worth noting.
Yeah it's the only time where Apollo felt he had some actual agency in this game.
Maybe if Takumi was given time to be able to insert that Daryan was manipulating the evidence, taking him down would be a lot more satisfying.
Honestly, that’s a big reason why it’s my second favorite case in the game.
Suggestion:
What if they saved Kristoph being the villain til the end of the game? In essence, save Turnabout Trump for the finale and reverse Turnabout Succession to make it fit for the tutorial case. Obviously it would need alot of rewriting but this method could work much better. In this new tutorial case, have Apollo defend Kristoph in court. This would help establish the personal relationship between the two of them, and it would make it that much more challenging to go after Kristoph in case 4 due to the double jeopardy rule established in trials and tribulations. Hobo Phoenix can still be around, but lessen his role until the last case of the game. THEN, you can play around with Apollo and Phoenix doing the whole teacher and student thing. Or use it as a cliffhanger for the next game.
Maybe Capcom could've done what Tobey Maguire's spiderman did and make the conflict about the protagonist struggling to side with either one of the two father figures. For Hobo Phoenix, even though he still does alot of secretive planning and forging, over the course of the game Apollo could begin to see that beneath the sadness and grapejuice is a good man who wants to do the right thing. Contrast that with Kristoph, over the course of the game Apollo could see subtle foreshadowings of just how vain and petty his boss really is.
You say this game can't be fixed? I'm not so sure.
Yeah, that would have fixed a lot of the issues with Kristoph TBH, since that would allow his character to be fleshed out, *especially* his motivation on wanting Wright disbarred.
AJ had a lot of fantastic concepts, but failed to properly execute any of them, and the end result was heartbreaking for all the wrong reasons. The new characters aren’t given nearly as much of a chance to shine or develop as they should have been, and the returning characters are either barely there at all or handled in such a blatantly mean-spirited way that it honestly feels like a slap in all the original fans’ faces. And the ending of the final case introduced a concept that could’ve revolutionized the Ace Attorney franchise as we know it, only for said revolutionary concept to be reduced to an insultingly cheap deus ex machina and all but forgotten in the sequels.
So how would I fix it? Well aside from some great points that have already been made in other comments, here are a few ideas.
(1) I don’t mind Phoenix Wright being disbarred per se; in fact, it opened up quite a bit of creative potential for Wright as a character. My issue is that the way his disbarment was written essentially forced certain characters to act like idiots just to make it work; had those characters done anything even remotely logical given their situations, Wright would’ve never been in any danger of losing his badge at all. Having said that, I CAN imagine one scenario in which these characters act logically, but then someone else is falsely accused of misconduct instead, resulting in Wright falsely confessing to save them and getting disbarred that way. Something like that could’ve improved the disbarment storyline exponentially, getting rid of all the illogical parts but also giving Wright more development while still staying consistent with his character.
(2) Give Apollo an actual role in the story instead of reducing him to a side character in his own game. Going back to the improved disbarment plot that I just mentioned, have him staunchly believe in Wright’s innocence and actively search for the truth throughout the entire game, instead of padding Cases 2 & 3 with useless filler and plot points that ultimately go nowhere.
(3) And on a side note, get rid of the Magic Panties subplot in Case 2, or at least replace the panties with something less cringe-inducing. I know age of consent laws are somewhat complicated in Japan, but making jokes about a minor’s undergarments is going WAAAAY too far for my taste.
Yes, absolutely. Phoenix’s disbarment always bothered me for a multitude of reasons, but the way it went down in canon probably upset me the most. I like your idea for a disbarred Phoenix storyline way more than want Capcom did.
They did such a horrible job establishing Apollo's character - or rather, no job at all. When we first meet Phoenix in PW:AA, just in the span of 4 cases we are given a glimpse of his past (school trial), we meet two of his childhood friends who drop a comment every now and then about what he used to be back in school, we meet Mia and know that she was a big influence on him; we clearly see how he grows and matures throughout the story, going from a nervous forgetful wreck in Larry's trial to the unstoppable machine of pure determination and intellect in Miles' trial.
In AJ:AA we know *jackshit* about Apollo. Who is he? What is his motivation for seeking the truth? What was his past? We're never given the details, all we get is the Gramaryes' story which has no direct relation to him aside for the origin of his percieving abilities. Apollo is just a blank here, and it's unfair to him and for us, as we don't even know why we should root for him as a protagonist.
Its worth noting that whenever we DO get Ace Attorney 7, Yamazaki won't be involved, as he left the company earlier this year. So I disagree that 5-6-7 will be a more cohesive trilogy than 4-5-6, especially given their unified focus on Apollo would be lost.
With Yamazaki gone things can only go upwards.
@@Klonoahedgehog Disagree, but I'm not here to spark debate.
@@Klonoahedgehoghe worked on inv1 and 2 so idk
Klavier really should've either been the tutorial prosecutor in Dual Destinies or the prosecutor for 5-3. He doesn't need to be connected to the plot, he's not an asshole so he's perfect for a beginner like Athena, and it would've given the team some use for his one-time "objection" soundbyte
He should have prosecuted Turnabout Reclaimed
Klavier was too busy simping for Apollo to be threatening /j
But in all seriousness I think there should have been more explored with Klavier and Kristoph, specifically Kristoph having control over Klavier. And Apollo saving him from that the way Phoenix saved Miles.
I think an interesting way to improve this game would have been to switch the first two cases around and actually have Kristoph act as your tutorial/mentor figure for the entire first case with little to no hints about how evil he actually is. Maybe add a part where he hands Apollo forged evidence that you end up presenting that comes back during Kristoph's heel turn. Then in the second case you defend Phoenix against Klavier like was said in the video as you slowly come to realize that this game's "Mia Fey" is also the game's "von Karma." Also Apollo and Klavier should both be genuinely shook up about Kristoph being evil as the rest of the game is about both characters grappling with what justice and truth really mean to them.
I've always thought that, while Klavier was a cool character, he makes a bad "Villain". And, as much as Kristoph is the REAL villain in-game, Klavier is who you butt heads with most of the game. Edgeworth's Logic was always able to push you into a corner, Franziska often using dirty tactics helped them feel threatening, and Godot's mystery and vindictive attitude built intrigue and he was a talented Prosecutor in his own right>
Klavier just feels... goofy. He doesn't feel like a threat, and admittedly this is partially due to Apollo having no stakes in any of these cases. Maybe they could have had Klavier nice and goofy to others, but feel resentment towards Apollo as he doesn't yet believe that his brother's Conviction was right, and believing his brother is innocent. It isn't until the final case, examining his brother himself, where he's finally able to accept that Apollo was right, and that his brother WAS a killer.
Personally I like Klavier as a character but you're right fighting with him in court isn't satisfying at all. I've only watched a playthrough and didn't play the game myself so I hadn't even considered this. And it would make SO MUCH SENSE for Klavier to be spiteful to Apollo for putting his brother behind bars despite being a good guy with a cool attitude. They really missed a good chance with that one.
Payne's in the best case of the game. XD This has huge consequences. In addition to Apollo and his interests and relationships being undersold to the player I'll also agree on the Gavins. Neither of them carry their weight here. We only really get to see Kristoph as evil once his twist passes, and he could've been one of the more subtle or secretive villains. Klavier is too chill in my book when his brother and bandmate are evil. He still feels like a hotshot, but not a jerk or rival.
Payne slowly realizing he’s in a case 5 instead of a tutorial and losing all sense of what is happening during the trial is great though
AJ is very similar to the first game (minus Rise from the ashes), Investigations 1, and the Great Ace Attorney in how much is resolved, the main characters development, and the quality of the middle cases. These games had the benefit of having a sequel to clear them up and resolve many of the issues or provide development and context for events that may not have made sense in isolation. AJ did not get that sequel unfortunately-- it actually got the opposite of one in Dual Destinies.
That's bs, the first great ace attorney was easily the greatest
@@D14MBK Aside from the final case (DL-6 one) all of the other were either just decent or meh.
@@kolbayada4938 I think that they were talking about TGAA/DGS
I both agree and disagree. I think there were elements that those games did better than AJ.
@@TheBlueLink3 it’s somewhat mixed for me as well. Haven’t played TGAA myself but comparing AA1 to AJ there are some things I feel each did better than the other.
Serenade isn't that bad if you take a good look at it as if it's the series parodying it's own problem of the police being ultra dumb. Sure, the video is a little bit overplayed but it's only parts of it and it doesn't sound bad like the blue badger song.
I like the setting, the whole "seeing through the magic trick" part and it's a turning point for your relationship with Gavin allowing him to be considered an ally in chapter 4.
Yeah I agree. Comedy is a huge part in Ace Attorney and that's excused dumb behavior in past cases before to increase stakes. A big concept in the AJ universe is dystopia and that the justice system sucks so it makes sense in the story but really, the police and judge being incompetent should be obvious to everyone in the very first game. I don't think it's good storytelling though if they wanted to make the dystopia serious at all but I never really took AA that seriously in the first place. The really good cases are exceptions though. I remember liking 4-3 a whole lot more than 4-2 at least but it's been a long time since I played Apollo Justice though so I probably don't remember the game too well.
Apollo himself was pretty on point in that case as well.
I think the case would be significantly improved if it was able to make it clear that the reason you can't pin Daryan to the murder with evidence alone is that he tampered the evidence, that way Apollo's clever way of defeating would be a lot more satisfying.
Hot take: as a standalone case, Turnabout Trump is a complete mess.
It's overly long and convoluted for an introductory case, has almost no character foundation (as Shadi's identity and the killer's motive have to be saved for case 4), relies way too much on Phoenix arbitrarily dripfeeding you information and acting unnecessarily mysterious, and doesn't even make much logical sense while you're playing through it (though that is a pervasive problem throughout AJ). It gets even worse in retrospect, because the entire poker "trap" scenario makes zero sense once you know Shadi's true reason for being there and that he already knows how Phoenix wins so consistently (spoiler alert, not hiding cards).
Also hot take: while flawed and suffering from a weak ending, Serenade did a much better job keeping my attention than any of the previous 3rd cases.
Good point, and it doesn't help Turnabout Trump that it exposing Kristoph so early ended up ruining his character later on in Succession...
I agree with you, i remember dropping apollo after how bad Turnabout trump was...
Luckily Turnabout corner was decent enough for me to continue it
okay, hold on. the 'trap' shadi laid was never about proving that phoenix wins so consistently by cheating. it was about 'proving' that phoenix was cheating by planting cards, thus ruining his reputation and giving shadi the ultimate victory over him. so it doesn't matter if shadi knew how phoenix had been winning, and even then, he didn't know that phoenix had been bringing trucy to important matches, although it is possible he could've deduced that being the case.
also, phoenix is being stupidly obtuse because he's:
- trying to catch out kristoph (who he wasn't even 100% certain was the culprit at the start)
- trying to trick apollo into presenting forged evidence
- honestly just a giant paranoid dickhead. what can you say, spend 7 years around somebody and they start to rub off on you.
I don't know if I fully agree with the idea that you can't fix Apollo Justice because the later games in the series have kind of locked it where it was. If that's not the point that was being made, then I misinterpreted and that's my bad.
I think there are a number of changes you can make to Apollo Justice that would, at the VERY least, make the next two games make more sense. Which would still improve the experience of AJ. Because one of the things that makes it such a rough replay is knowing that the later games threw it fully under the bus.
Here are the changes I would make that wouldn't require any changes to the later games. Some of these changes are ones that would have been impossible to actually put in the game that shipped because they involve planting seeds for things in later games.
1. Disbarred but not disgraced - everyone in AJ seems to know that Phoenix was duped into using false evidence, and they still respect him. Why, then, does Phoenix give AJ false evidence to present in court? With how much the series paints false evidence as immoral and contemptible (they are right to do so) it makes very little sense to me that PW doesn't have a problem with it anymore just because he got duped into using it once. PW should have his shit somewhat more together than he does.
2. The Mason System - just take it out. The jury system doesn't get adopted by later games. Have Apollo find an airtight way to nail Kristoph to the wall. This makes Apollo's arc more satisfying, too.
3. Have Clay show up. (I haven't played DD in so long I might have his name wrong. Apollo's "Best Friend" from DD.) Just have him be the sidekick for one case. Or better yet,have Apollo defend him in court. Just establish him as a presence in Apollo's life prior to DD happening.
4. Hint at ANY of Apollo's SoJ backstory. Anything would be fine.
5. Different defendant in Serenade. For obvious reasons.
6. Let Klavier shine more. He's a fun prosecutor. Give him more to do.
Now, AJ will always have a place in my heart as the thing that got me into the series. Back in the day, there were demos on the Wii Shop that you could play using Download Play on your DS, and Apollo Justice was one of them. It was basically just a segment of the first case; you play up until you find your first major contradiction. And I got a taste of how good it feels to find those contradictions. Playing that demo made me go out and hunt down a used copy of the first game at a Gamestop, which I actually found, with its original case and everything, and then fully fell in love with the series. And I enjoyed it on my first playthrough, though that Mason System stuff really rubbed me the wrong way. It was the first time in the series I felt plot holes staring right at me on a first playthrough. Normally the thrill of piecing together what happened is enough to distract me from any elements that don't make a ton of sense, but it wasn't enough in AJ case 4.
EDIT: I also want to mention Ema Skye being bitter and sad wasn't awesome either. Seeing her back was so exciting, but then... Hasn't she gone through enough? I get that maybe it's realistic that life never stops dumping on you, but from a storytelling perspective it's a huge letdown.
I think the issue with AJ's Ema Skye is that her bitterness was probably meant to parallel Phoenix's story, but the game does absolutely nothing with it (AJ has a bad tendency of very poorly utilising its new cast in favour of unneeded nonsense).
Honestly their approach would have worked a lot better if they had given more for her to do in this game, or even simply make her the protagonist since a story about her uncovering the reality behind Wright's disbarrment and even working her way to get her dream job in the process would have make her a far more compelling protagonist than Apollo himself in AJ.
I think with the ending something that could have happened was have Phoenix try to set up the strings to take out Kristoph and fail and then by solely Apollo's ability as a lawyer take out Kristoph
That was the basis of "The Broken Turnabout" fangame, where all the evidence Phoenix gathered was thrown out on appeal, Apollo succeding without the MASON system anyways, and Phoenix realizing that he spent seven years accomplishing nothing.
IMHO that worked a lot better than Turnabout Succession as a final case.
You can’t fix Apollo Justice cuz it’s already goated 😎
i was looking for this, games can still be fun and good without a whole movie storyline behind them
honestly my biggest issue with AJ as a game is that you can absolutely tell how it's a bunch of ideas sewn together even if they don't fit. there's a lot that can't be polished because the issues come from the foundation, aka. Phoenix being shoehorned into the game and stealing the spotlight simply because he's Too Big to be contained as a mentor character.
i do appreciate that they tried to stray from the whole twist villain stuff, because it was harming the franchise long-term, but it definitely needed a bit more work. dual destinies destroying any chance of Apollo gaining his own spot as a main character in his own right with clear motivations and development just adds to the whole disaster.
with that said the potential AJ:AA has makes it one of my favorites lmao
I’m not really sure how Dual Destinies did that.
I mean doesn’t he sort of get that in SoJ. Sure he isn’t the sole player character but the story certainly centers around him.
I think that if AJ had a better final case (and actually focused on APOLLO, you know, the one whose name is on the title of the game) people would hate it less.
And had they bothered to explore Kristoph more as a character too!
@@juanyusee8197 Of course!
You cant fix it cause its already perfect 😎🤚
Regarding Turnabout Serenade... After playing the game a few times, I have to say that the problem isn't the case per se, it's a great case to demonstrate how messed up the system is: latching on anyone who may fit the law's preconceptions on who the killer is without much thought about it, and how corrupt people manipulated that tendency in order to get what they want. The real problem with the case can be resumed in the following aspects:
I) Apollo doesn't fight enough in regards to his client's physique, and how it makes Machi a bad fit for being accused of the crime.
II) It doesn't make sense that Klavier is so complacent with the police's accusation against Machi. He's quite bright and really wants to learn the truth about what happened, so I believe it would be more believable if a greedy prosecutor who only thinks about winning were in this case instead of him.
III) The amount of flashbacks towards the victim's last words is trully excessive.
IV) The footage and audio analysis were quite frustrating for many people.
V) The culprit's relationship with Klavier should have been better explored, probably by adding him in the past case to cement their friendship. I believe that Gavin should have shown a little more emotion for that as well.
turnabout trump should have been like the 2nd case or smth. honestly if they made some changes in the sequencing for how they tell the story and maybe taking control of Wright in his own investigations. show more of klavier and his relationship with his brother which could be like how he respect his brother alot and felt betrayed. will definitely make the game more memorable
cheeto gavin and his silly little guitar catching on fire as he desperately tries to put the fire out
I mostly agree with this video, though I actually really like Turnabout Serenade. I consider it the second best case in the game, mostly because Apollo actually does get to shine some. It’s also actually related to him, and even the OST feels the most fitting here. With some major tweaking, it could have worked as the real last case of the game. Most of my issues with the real last case come from its second half. It just all comes together in an underwhelming way, unfortunately. I think, if nothing got changed in the previous cases, AJ would really benefit from an extra case like the first game got.
I think Serenade would have been improved at least significantly if they made it clear the reason that Apollo couldn't pin the crime on Daryan using evidence alone is because Daryan tampered with it. That way it would have made Apollo figuring out the loophole to it a lot more satisfying.
@@juanyusee8197 Yeah, I think the writer regretted not making stuff like that more clear in the game itself.
The thing that really gets me about the Succession flashback is the music. Shouldn't it be using the T&T soundtrack, considering when it takes place? The use of PW music was excessively fanservicey in my opinion. (I also felt this way about Gumshoe not wearing the new/old tan coat Maggey got for him in the AA3 epilogue, but the AAI games also had him back in green, so it doesn't clash as much I guess.)
In that flashback, I also find the og character acting out-of-character (Gumshoe especially)
It does use Phoenix’s theme from T&T.
@@TheBlueLink3 I thought it was the 1st game theme. No?
@@PhilSunderland Nope, Phoenix uses his T&T theme for every game after T&T except for the crossover with Layton, which uses his theme from the first game. His theme from Justice for All never gets reused.
@@TheBlueLink3 Oh I was talking about the flashback in Apollo Justice in case 4. My apology.
Apollo Justice is my favorite out of the main ones, and the reason for that is I think it has the best ost, with solid characters and great visuals. Most people place a lot of value on plot and gameplay in games, but for me the music is probably the most important element. I have played games with meh gameplay and solid music, but I have dropped a few games with great gameplay and trash music (lookin at you DQ11). Still, I don't disagree that the cases are vastly less interesting than the ones from Pheonix Wright 1 and 3 at the very least
in my opinion turnabout serenade was when apollo, unfortunately, was at his best in the whole game. it was the ONLY trial in the entire game where apollo didn't miss obvious clues so trucy can do it instead or where phoenix just does the case for him or have klavier steal his thunder
...and it was the trial where phoenix is conveniently missing, trucy knows but just doesn't want to tell you, klavier is super stressed through the entire thing and is implied to have been given the wrong information since the culprit was his detective
and thats not counting everything else wrong and tedious about that trial that isn't about how you play it
This is by far my most favorite game in the entire series. I played this on an emulator, and I could speed up the cutscene in case 3. I love this game, and I loved this game more than the first 3.
Turnabout serenade definitely isn’t the worst,the worst case in my opinion is the kidnapped turnabout
agreed, kidnapped turnabout is a pathetic stain on the good name of ace attorney and an absolutely atrocious 8 hour waste of time excuse of a case, i struggle to think of a single good thing about the case that isn't the returning or newly introduced main characters because everything within the case itself is genuinely so terribly done and awful
it is dissatisfying, frustrating, yet somehow also being mind numbingly boring at the same time
investigations 1 isn't a bad game at all, and it generally has a solid set of cases, but kidnapped turnabout is shockingly low quality especially considering investigations 2's 3rd case is arguably the second best case in the WHOLE SERIES, how the fuck did the previous game have a third case this bad?? big top is obnoxious and serenade is nonsensical for sure, but they are 10 times more fun, substanceful, and more worth your time than the slimy disgusting waste of file size that is the kidnapped turnabout, a sincerely appalling and shockingly garbage tier waste of time that embodies the worst of 3rd case syndrome
Which game is kidnapped turnabout from?
@@DivideBy0_ investigations 1
@@SolarDelite oh ok im only halfway through that game
I don’t really mind either.
So... I agree with some of your sentiment here. To me, AJ, the game, has three main problems
1 - The cases are weak
2 - Kristoph is actually the weak link, not Klavier
3 - Narrative cowardice made Apollo a mess of a character by not handling continuity at all
Really AJ becomes worse the further the series goes on. Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice make AJ progressively worse because they try and retcon or ignore so much of it. To "fix" AJ I think you'd need to rethink those three games as a whole.
None of the plot threads/character moments in AJ pay off, except for Ema making a return in SoJ. Phoenix's character gets a reset so hard that by the time SoJ is happening, he is nowhere near the Phoenix that steamrolled Klavier in AJ's flashback, he's the Phoenix that was floundering against Franziska. With Apollo the game's narrative cowardice regarding not committing to his backstory with Trucy just opens the door to him getting an entirely new unrelated backstory every game. The revelation (that DOES get very strongly foreshadowed throughout the game) about Lamirroir should have been a turning point in the final case. Just flying into everyone's face, like "Maya was channeling Dahlia" or "Matt Engarde hired Shelly" and then the fallout of that revelation would drive the finale.
Problem is that doesn't jive with the resolution to the Phoenix story as it was written so ONE of those would need to get moved to a second game. Since this plot point got abandoned because it was decided that magicians are lame, actually, Apollo ended up in backstory limbo.
Regarding the case structure, I think you made a good point of that in general. They just didn't work very well. It was also the game in which I had the most times where I simply didn't know what to do, including the one time you need to talk to Trucy (the Maya of the game) to progress. That was confusing as a veteran, Maya was always "hint if you're stuck", never "actual progression". This is the simplest problem but one that's not necessarily easy to solve ("just make them better, lol"). This DOES have one interesting thing where Turnabout Serenade actually has the ONE well executed bloody writing in the entire series.
And regarding Klavier and Kristoph. Completely agree that it was super refreshing to not have a complete jerk as a Prosecutor. What makes this a problem, though, is Kristoph. In a way, the end of Turnabout Succession is similar to the end of Rise From The Ashes. In that case, by the end, both Phoenix and Miles are trying to corner Damon Gant. The problem is that Gant is one of the strongest final bosses in the series. He has power and he knows very very well how to wield it, plus he lays all sorts of traps for them. It is a super tense finale, and a great crescendo as bit by bit, Miles and Phoenix get there, but it's HARD.
Kristoph gets set in a similar situation. Both Apollo and Klavier team up to tear his BS down and corner him. But Kristoph was really kind of counting on Klavier protecting him. So when this happens, he just gets steamrolled. He never gets built as a person who is able to put up a fight in that situation. Compare him to Gant, or the final villain in either Investigations game, Von Karma.... He barely puts up any resistance in the final stretch. This plays a big role in the finale falling flat. Against Von Karma Phoenix plays the most desperate bluff of his entire career. Against Matt Engarde, he has to turn himself inside out as he desperately prolongs the trial. Against Godot, he has to solve one of the weirdest cases in the entire series all the while Godot is there begging him to do it and close the circle.... And then against Kristoph Apollo is just like "yeah, yeah. Just fall over already".
So yeah, the game HAS problems. But I still feel that DD and SoJ are what really kills it.
In DD, AJ never happened to either Phoenix or Apollo. The game is then entirely about Athena, who is a fun character, but she has lose a whole lot of screen time to Phoenix all the while Apollo is off pretending to have a whole new backstory and being edgy. Then in SoJ they decide to give Apollo a third new backstory which COULD have added a lot to the character if it existed prior to this game (just imagine what would the Apollo who grew up in Khura'in be around Mystic Pearl who can channel spirits) but just falls flat because it's obviously the weakest fabricated contrivance, all the while they kind of spit on the original backstory by having a weak, unrelated case involving Trucy while also retconning the story of the troupe itself. And they do it in a game that's half good, half garbage and Apollo has absolutely no business being in the good half. Really the Khura'in side of SoJ was tailor-made for Phoenix.
I agree so hard with everything you're saying.
I would love an AJ remake that actually plants the seeds for what happens in the later games, maybe with a 5th bonus case like Rise From the Ashes. It will never ever happen.
But it's so true that the later games are what really bury Apollo Justice (the game) and the game on it's own, while the weakest in the series regardless, doesn't feel like such an absolute mess if the later games didn't try to pretend it didn't exist.
you're so so right!! just. there are so many ways to flesh out the cases and give Apollo some real weight as a character, but DD and SoJ failed spectacularly and only made him the running joke of "this boy can fit so many sad backstories in him"
IMO DD handled Apollo much worse than SoJ did. Albeit plot twist of Apollo being born in Khura'in IS forced, at the very least his chemistry with his father was really top notch (Also Phoenix being nervous in SoJ makes sense since his very 1st case' defendant is a child that is about sentenced to death and because of the law Phoenix will be executed as well). DD on the other hand build up the hype around Apollo and his friend's friendship, but then goes "lel he ded" without showing us any interaction between them. We're supposed to care about Apollo's friend but the game makes bare minimum to actually do that.
@@noisepollution4473 Arguably, I'd say the half of Spirit of Justice that's not on Khura'in takes the cake for worse one. But it's a weird one for me because the other half, while non-sensical, it's like great cases only, and the only thing keeping it from being great, imo, is Apollo and the other half of the game (even Nahyuta, who's a bit weak, doesn't hurt things much because there's no shortage of strong antagonists in that game). Just remembering the resolution to Maya's case in that game... it's... wow. Possibly the greatest tragedy in the entire series
@@kolbayada4938 I think for me what happens is that Apollo feels like he's barely in DD at all; so even though I agree that his new backstory there is even more wasted, it just barely registers. That game is very decidedly about Athena, and her story is pretty good (even if I do feel that the whole Dark Age of the law thing is quite weakly pulled off) so edgelord Apollo is just... I dunno "sure, I guess. Have fun kid"
Regarding Phoenix in SoJ, it's not just his nervousness but also Phoenix is just so weirdly dumb in that game. One thing I DID like a lot is that SoJ is MADE for him, such that in the very first case he barges in and they're like "nah, we use a magical ritual to consult the dead in order to try people here" and, having gone through all of his history with the Feys, Phoenix is just "All right then, talk to me dead man". It flows very very well. But because the AA series is just terrified of giving you a competent protagonist that's not called Miles Edgeworth, he just does really weird amateur stuff. One of the central points of the game is Phoenix's relationship with and influence on Rayfa, who is one of the most important and powerful people in the entire country. And from the get go Phoenix is just randomly antagonising this person, like "lol, you so dumb kid. What are you even doing?". Then later on it's really Maya who saves the day here and actually has an adult moment where she extends some sympathy and wisdom towards her. But from that very first interaction I was like "what is Phoenix doing? He's an adult and he's supposed to be smart. Why is he begging this kid to have him executed?!??!". Then, the usual of being completely baffled by the most trivial things and losing his mind at very milquetoast reveals that you can see coming for a mile... it ends up cheapening the REAL strong twists of which that game has PLENTY because they already had Phoenix lose all hope and be completely confused by, say, someone misreading a flyer once.
I agree with what you said, it's a "mid" Game but not bad. also turnabout serenade is one of my favourite cases because its so ridiculous lol
IDK if I said this already, but the biggest missed opertunity in this gameare The Rivales Family. In the game we got all they do is shoot Wokki in the heart and that's it.
I have a feeling they were ment to have a larger role in the game, but the execs forced Phoenix to be included, which hevely altered the plot and story of the game.
Had The Rivales Family been the main antagonists of the game than it would have resulted IMO in case 2 an 3 to be no longer filler cases. Case 2's killer could be a Family spy sent to mary Wokki in order assimilate the Kitaki's into The Rivales Family and the killer of case 3 could be in charce of their smugling ring. IDK what Kristoph and Trucy's roles would have been, but I'm pretty sure that Apollo facing off against a crime syndicate would have been a way better story than the 1 we got, no?
The best character in this game is the detective, imho. If you disagree you are wrong, scientifically speaking.
If anything, dare I say the game would be vastly improved if it had her as the protagonist instead of Apollo!
@@juanyusee8197 You're too kind!
@@ema_skye No problem, especially since unlike Apollo, Ema actually has a goal (to be a forensic scientist) as well as actual ties to Phoenix Wright prior to his disbarrment, so scientifically speaking she would have made a far more compelling protagonist to unravel the truth behind Wright's disbarrment!
@@juanyusee8197 Ema Skye Investigations when‽
Sadly, we all know there NEEDS to be a Paine like guy in every first case
3:22 Yeah, platonic ,right.😉
Apollo Justice was my first ace attorney game, and I think that REALLY helped its case for me. After finishing it I was so excited to go back and see how everything had come to this point, leading me right into the Triology and its incredible writing.
Thanks to that, I have fonder memories of it then it necessary deserved
I also agree that Apollo deserved to have his own emotional states in the story. However, there's something hilarious about how little stakes he actually has in the story. He's literally just a lawyer doing his job and it leads to him being really detached and annoyed by everyone's shenanigans
I'd love to do a video talking about my issues with the future "trilogy" and how I'd fix it, because I''ve thought about it a lot. The first case had some good twists, the second was obvious and uninteresting, the third had horrible logic, and the fourth had some nice twists as well. but the actual trial part was really underwhelming. And then that's it. They're introducing a new cast and only have four cases?!
Do it
Yeah my main issue with AJ in particular is that it has great ideas and concepts behind most of the new cast, but they poorly utilised them all on the game.
@@tbone415 I'd love to, but I'm unfortunately sort-of homeless at the moment, so I have no access to any of my stuff. Making new videos is gonna be pretty hard for a bit - I managed to do a video recapping and reviewing the first episode of the live Resident Evil show, but it used my camcorder and didn't have the best audio. XD If I do get it recorded someday, though, I hope you'll watch!
Tbf up until only T&T has 5 cases on release. Even the original had only 4 cases before Rise from the Ashes was added as DLC in the original version (but later added for free in the remakes and rereleases).
@@deathcon6261 I know, but given the challenge that AJ had -setting up a new trilogy and new characters, - I really think it needed five.
If i had to rewrite 4 5 and 6 as a trilogy I'd start with Appolo being in over his head falling in charge of Phoenix Wright and co as Phoenix is imprisoned and Appolo has to prepare for his defense. Make the first case against Payne as he has to fill in for a trial Phoenix had today with Athena as the assistant that was supposed to be with Phoenix and make her the new Maya insert. Payne enters terrorized to lose more hair to Phoenix as he sees Appolo and thinks he can beat the rookie. He doesn't, loses more hair Classic Case 1. In case 2 and 3, some fillers but with the greater arc still going in the background, use Phoenix in jail as your Mia equivalent for those 2 trials, while gathering some clues for the final case. Make Kristof prosecutor, ditch Klavier. Erase the fact that Kristof is Appolo's mentor and build him up slowly as an even worse von Karma. Case 4, a rewrite of turnabout trump and turnabout successionbut, where you defend Phoenix and annihilate Kristof, and as he has to go in the witness stand, he tries to stonewall Appolo as the "final boss". For 5 exploring the same Athena backstory but approached in the same way as Maya's backstory was and keep Appolo as the main character, keep Phoenix as the Mia mentor figure and Trucy as a Pearl insert. 6 make the overarching plot about Appolo having to defend himself in court against a new evil prosecutor tries to frame him and recount the last month before that in the first 3 cases that gives you glimpses of the mystery that will be solved in the final case. Wrap his arc with a bow and move to the next arc.
I can think of a few things to improve. Maybe if Spirit of Justice was released before Dual Destinies we could spend that game focusing on Apollo's development and character whilst also reintroducing Maya and expand on her family history.
Or alternatively replace Apollo with Athena. Sure she will still be bland and the game would still focus of Phoenix but then the second game will expand on her character and Apollo could make is debut.
Really liked this more long form video. Everything was explained and reasoned really easily.
It makes me sad, because this game had the potential to be one of, if not the best game in the series. Takumi and friends just couldn't get it quite right to make the magic happen.
Yeah out of the entries in the new trilogy, AJ has some of the best concepts and ideas, but for one reason or the other (executive meddling and lack of time in general for example), they were generally executed very poorly.
I'll say this about hobo Nick - he has the perfect look for my "waiting for Godot" objection.lol.
If I had to write phoenix in the story, I would forget all that disbarred stuff and just make him Apollo’s mentor from the start. And after seeing Apollos potential in turnabout Trump, we would see just how much Phoenix changed over the years later on. His personality will be similar of his in the original trilogy, but there will be noticeable differences. He will still adopt Trusy, but under different circumstances.
Apparently Capcom also calls the second trilogy as The Apollo Juatice Trilogy now.
The writing of Phoenix feels like Takumi was frustrated with Capcom for forcing him to put in Phoenix (which is understandable) and made Phoenix as unlikeable as he could get away with. Could someone who was disbarred and fallen into depression display a totally different personality than 7years ago? Sure, but we don’t get to see that arc and for the AA Triology fans it leaves a bitter taste (especially if you play the games back-to-back like I did). IMO to fix AJ you need to either take out Phoenix or make him less extremely different. A more sarcastic, disillusioned Phoenix is fine, but I don’t see him forging evidence or using Apollo as his puppet. And his relationship with Trucy is pretty cold seeming for no reason.
YOU CANT FIX APOLLO JUSTICE BECAUSE ITS ALREADY GOOD!
Hey tbone, I''ve been a longtime watcher of yours and love your insight on the Ace Attorney series, but I was just wondering why you don't seem to make videos on Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice? Judging by what I can tell from statements in your videos, you don't seem to have any particular disdain for them, and I'd be interested to hear your in-depth thoughts regarding those games, as I feel like they often don't get the attention of the first 4 entries. Great video as always!
I've seen them through less recently than the first 4 so I don't want to do them a disservice.
im fine with the game including phoenix and continuing his journey but yeah they made the game too much about him and apollo feeling like a tacked on extra
Yeah, Phoenix's story in this game would have worked a lot better if the game had bothered to better tie-in Apollo's story to it, and gave Apollo more stuff to do by himself (which is why I ended up feeling that Ema would've made for a much better protagonist than Apollo himself).
I love the current AJ but what if this was the case list:
Case 1: A tutorial, we learn who Apollo and Kristoph are. Klavier is the defendant but we only know that he's a rockstar and Kristoph's brother but we don't know that he's a prosecutor outside of a slight hint at it. In the case originally Apollo is supposed to be the co-counsel but something happens that forces a switch.
Case 2: Turnabout Serenade. We have Apollo acknowledge that Machi being the defendant is ridiculous. And we also have Kristoph act a bit strange towards Valant and seem to not like it when Apollo and the Judge talk about the judicial system being too closed off from the public, which makes us wonder what's with Kristoph. All perceive sections are removed.
Case 3: Turnabout Trump, everything stays the same outside of Payne being replaced with Klavier.
Case 4: Turnabout Corner. Again, everything is the same except we already know Ema and Klavier so the interactions go differently. And Klavier seems a bit messed up here from the past case and is unsure if Apollo is right about Kristoph thus is bitter towards him. The Rivales family becomes a plot point in the next game.
Case 5: Turnabout Succession. Things are the same except Klavier apologizes for his bitterness during Corner at the end. Apollo is also there with Phoenix for some of the present Mason system parts. And we know more clearly that Apollo is playing the Mason system one way or another, like we see his reactions to the stuff or something idk. Also learn about Trucy being adopted through the Mason system. Aside from that Misham does draw Serenade and Case 1 and it is implied more that after Apollo joined the agency and returned the agency to law, Drew was pleased and painted all of Apollo's cases both before and after joining as a way of gratitude towards Apollo.
I think one of my friends put it best:
"Apollo Justice feels like they intended to make a _direct_ sequel. It sets up so much that would go from great to amazing if it was further fleshed out in later games."
Apollo Justice has The Great Ace Attorney 1 problem of not having a satisfying ending because of all the loose ends. I think Apollo Justice can easily be fixed by making the individual cases better and giving Apollo a motivation for being a lawyer. A desire to find his family would be a good motivation and it would even tie in with the themes and plot too.
Yeah but the great ace attorney 1 is still like a thousand times better than apollo justice. Writing, dialogue, characters, overall not comparable.
Excellent game, probably my favorite one or its main case at least, people seem upset that Phoenix stole the spotlight, but why should we care ? There is no competition between protagonists and Phoenix was excellent in this new role.
well guess what , i HATE Corner , Serenade is one of my all time favourites , and Succession is in my top 3 .
Yeah, thinking about it, Apollo Justice really did peak in the very first case. Which I actually didn't need to think about to conclude, it seems pretty apparent to me. Gotta give it credit, it's a top 2, maybe top 1 starting case. Also I'm only like 7 minutes into the video but I'm curious about what was so wrong with turnabout serenade, I remember liking it, but that was a long time ago. Also hobo looking Phoenix I really didn't like when I first saw it, and then I thought it was interesting, but then thinking more about it it's really more depressing than anything and I have to question if he'd really lose his badge (In Rise of The Ashes wasn't it stated Edgeworth unknowingly presented forged evidence in that one past case?), and like, he's helped so many people you'd think someone would help him. In the flash back case I remember staring at my screen for like, 10 full minutes because I didn't want to present the evidence haha. Oh also, I really like the moderato theme in this game, it sounds almost creepy, which I think really fit super well especially in the first place because seeing Phoenix in the state he's in was just eerie, as was your mentor, the one literally telling you how to play, the person you as a player kinda have to trust, being the murderer. Also, Farewell, My Turnabout I believe to be a top 2 case in the franchise. Possibly just number 1.
The only thing that is memorable to me in AJ finale would be introduction to Black Psyche Lockes
Honestly, if this game just had 5 Cases, with the existing ones being 2-5, things could work much better.
Case 1 can introduce us to Apollo and Kristoph, while having Payne back.
Case 2 can then be mostly Turnabout Trump, but with Klavier instead of Payne and a bit more confident Apollo.
(Don't know if this requires Drew to make another Painting, but then again the link is much less as Phoenix isn't there.)
Also, the reason people feel like AA 4-6 is another Trilogy is because it's kinda telling Apollo's story (even though each game basically brought up new ones), to the point where the final confrontation again Ga'ran should've had a new Overtaken.
My changes even adds another detail: A twist regarding your mentor in Case 2 (but ending evil instead of starting dead).
I think Developers used most of the time to Produce epic soundtracks and with only some time left how could they Make it as good as trials and tribulations ?
I always meme about liking Big Top, but unironically I really do like Turnabout Serenade. idk why but I think its cool
For starters delete turnabout serenade and say it never happened. Other than that can't fix it, its not AJ's fault that sequels decided to not only pretend it doesn't exists (dark age of law lol) but it actively retconns it(apollos two backstories, black psycholocks).
I didn’t understand anything of the 3rd case when I played it..
What’s the name for the music playing when it says “Is Apollo Justice Bad” at the start? I’ve heard it so much but the name just escapes me now.
Telling the Truth 2007
@@tbone415 Great, thank you. :)
imo im at the 5th game, and so far apollo justice is my favourite one. I actually really liked all the cases, including Serenade. The weakest so far was JFA.
on the other hand, SoJ is a phoenix wright game that should've been an apollo justice game
I do think they handled balancing the two characters a lot better in that game.
Phoenix in a mentor Role was really good ...
Turnabout serenade was like a duplicate of rise from the ashes
Just think rise from the ashes is 5G this case is 2G
What if we shunted all of the current cases up a notch, and made a new Case 1,with Good Guy Kristoph helping Apollo in a basic case vs Payne? Then Gavin could prosecute Trump. We could still intro Trucy in Case 1 if we want, and include a basic Investigation of the crime scene (but no detention center - contrive it so the Phoenix surprise comes at Trial). Maybe make it so Trucy keeps saying "need to save daddy" so the clueless player would just be expecting some magician to then see Wright?
Although I agree with all the criticism, for some reason, AJ is still my favorite Ace Attorney. Idk what about this game hooks me more then other from the franchise but I love it
Nothing wrong with liking what you like :) Personally I love the character dynamics in this, Phoenix, Trucy and Apollo make a fun trio.
@@kristynab.6539 I agree, contrary to most people I actually like Hobo Phoenix, he did change quite a lot but that's what I found so interesting, kept the mystery to "What could've happened to cause such a drastic change?" Also, I think AJ has the overall best OST in any game of the franchise
I'm surprised I swear I subbed before maybe that yt glitch really does exist ;p
As someone who's been playing the series since 2006, Dual Destinies is the worst in the series in my opinion.
*SPOILERS*
The main villain "twist" has all of the hallmarks of a bad twist. There is absolutely no way to see it coming and furthermore, it actually means nothing. The twist is actually:
"Haha you thought I was innocent Detective but instead I'm a... Faceless Assassin?" Very impactful. Not only is the twist not earned, it's utterly meaningless.
Furthermore, the fact that the story sets the Assassin up as such a driving force in everyone's story makes this even worse. It'd be one thing if they didn't cause literally everyone in the game's (at the time, thanks Spirit of Justice) trauma and then were a literal nobody.
That's really only one complaint though there are myriad such as the second case literally showing you who the perpetrator is (something not done since 1-2).
Apollo Justice is a bottom half game in the series for numerous reasons, but at the very least it has an extremely powerful villain and was also the best first case in the series (at the time).
yeah dual destinies is pretty weak for an ace attorney game but i still liked it and athena is cool
maybe its because im dumb and if the game is fun i automatically like it
At least Dual Destinies is more fair and doesn't force you to follow one exact line of logic that the authors first thought of. Maybe the story wasn't that good though, because I played it only earlier this Summer and can't remember what plot twist you are talking about
I don’t think the main villain twist is really that bad.
You could very easily see figure out Fulbright is at least the culprit during the final two cases. He says some pretty shady stuff and knew things far earlier then he should have.
I have a lot of issues with this game but I’ll address a less prominent one since this is what I feel like talking about. While I like Klavier as a character he is not a good prosecuter. Not in the sense that he sucks at his job, but I really have no desire prove him wrong or argue with him. I feel like a necessary evil with prosecutors as characters is that you have want to argue with them and get satisfaction from seeing their logic fall flat on its face. Say what you will about Franziska but at least you enjoyed making her squirm when you proved her wrong. Klavier is too nice and not at all antagonistic towards Apollo (and Apollo just comes off as a dickless loser when he whinges about him) so that makes me feel bad when he has too arrest a fellow band member or see his brother show his true colours. Gotcha moments with him also make me feel nothing since he is just doing the same thing you are, looking for the truth. They really should’ve given him an unlikable trait but… they didn’t. I appreciate the mix up Takumi gave is with a likeable prosecutor but it just ends up making him a boring rival since you don’t wanna see him squirm. It’s a similar issue with Pokémon rivals the more I think about it.
I just finished Apollo Justice recently, and I think it was a good mess of a game. Some bits absolutely slapped (the OST, Turnabout Trump and Klavier as a prosecutor), while others are not great/undercooked a little bit (the middle cases, Apollo's role in the game and Klavier's character). Even then, I kinda liked Phoenix's revenge plotline just for the pure savagery of it all, even if it does takeaway from Apollo a lot. Still a fun game, but one which you can go back and forth on what is good/bad about it.
Also it now seems Capcom agrees AJ is part of a trilogy, as it'll be apart of the Apollo Justice Trilogy in 2024 (I know the video was released way before it was announced, but just thought I'd share)
ngl i tried so hard to get into apollo justice but i just couldn't, i was bored the entire way through and apollo wasnt a very engaging protag to me. kristoph being revealed as a killer in the first case really threw me off, especially when the last case came around, and it honestly should've been explored more. the whole time i wanted to find out more about phoenix since they seemed to be building up this whole thing with his past, only for it to be incredibly lackluster. they really should've kept phoenix out of it entirely, because his story never matters in the long run and this game never builds anything up for apollo anyway. i was honestly really disappointed in the entire thing. even when i tried to ignore everything with phoenix and the issues with his story, the game felt so dull and boring to me. the only story was phoenix's, and he didnt need another one. i had high hopes for this game and i wish it was executed better
Loved the soundtrack and the change of tone in the franchise with AJ, but fuck i thought the same thing when i beat the game, it peaks too early, first case should've been the last lol
I love Apollo quite a lot, I relate to him and his personality a ton. However, I hate how they treat him as an actual protagonist. He has no stake in anything happening at all in the end.
Will the video where you fix apollo justice contain spoilers for dual destinies and spirit of justice?
No, nothing major will be spoiled.
Yeah prosecutor Klavier Gavin should have been used a lot more before they switch to a new prosecutor in AA5.
Also Kristoph Gavin as a villain wasn't as flesh out considering he was connected to Turnabout Secession I would have minded him in a few more cases.
Also the dark age of law wasn't really shown in Apollo Justice what if they had cases were you convicted people who were innocent or if fake evidence was used and Apollo didn't know about it until the last case?
Well it would make Apollo have to question every case he won and how far is he willing to go to achieve a not guilty?
Thank you for the video!
i feel like we still really haven't gotten an apollo game. like this game and dual destinies are still just about Phoenix, making it hard for me to care about or have a relationship with apollo, which I feel like is sad because I think he deserves more. that being said, i think this game is fine. not really great or bad, just fine. I'm very disappointed that the finale case had basically 0 hold on the protagonist, like no stakes at all for us as apollo. the first game did a great job with this since edgey got his whole arc and he's also a close friend of phoenix, but in succession we're literally just given this character and told to point fingers or whatever to save her ass. i think the case plot itself is pretty interesting, but there's just nothing in it for me
yeah phoenix's involment in this game kinda just makes apollo justice feel like a ride along. HIs reason for becoming a lawyer is nonexistent in this game aside from "I got a magic bracelet". Which sucks cuz I like his character design, and quirky attitude.
00:30 what's this song called?
Apollo Justice ~ A New Trial is in Session
Given how we have the Apollo Trilogy coming soon this didn't age well lol
Finally got to watch ✌️👍👍
Because it's perfect.
I think the point at the beginning with Apollo not feeling like the protagonist is fair, because a lot of the game is about Nick, but I think one of the reasons Apollo doesn't feel fleshed out as a character is because AJ felt more like a bridge to a new series, not without explaining what happened to Nick of course, which DD and SoJ completely just threw away. I think the game should stand by itself without a sequel of course but there was so much being set up for the potential future, that never got explored ever again
The only fix is to retcon Dual Destinies and Spirit of Justice and continue the Apollo Justice continuity, with Shu Takumi actually in charge (he wasn't in the last two, not counting The Great Ace Attorney).
7 doesn't work as part of a trilogy because of how much 6 was a finale not just to the new games but to the whole series.
2:57 I disagree, Phoenix was still the main character of the first game. Edgeworth had an arc, sure, but that arc was driven by Phoenix's influence on him. Phoenix felt like he was driving the story, thus he's the main character. He even has an arc too - throughout the first game, we see Phoenix become more capable across his cases and take down first Manfred von Karma and then Damon Gant (granted, the latter was added later. But still, even 1-4 works as a culmination)
3-5 works as a much stronger conclusion for Phoenix's arc in general, but even within AA1, he still has a small one
AJ didnt have that really good satisfaction at the end for me
maybe because Kristoph was already given a sentence/found guilty
plus the end gameplay after the Mason system felt weird
While I still don't quite understand the hate for Turnabout Serenade, I must concede that it's probably the weakest case in Apollo Justice. Good breakdown of the game here and I have to agree that Apollo was underutilized as a character.