WoW Classic Stats and Mechanics - Part 2: Hit Chance, Weapon Skill, Attack Tables Explained
Вставка
- Опубліковано 13 жов 2024
- Time Stamps:
Skills 0:40
Attack Results 1:45
Glancing Blows 4:00
Melee DPS Attack Table 5:40
Ranged DPS Attack Table 6:52
Dual Wielding DPS Attack Table 7:04
Crit Cap 7:45
Hit Cap 8:40
PvP Attack Table 9:05
Tanking Attack Table 9:35
Crushing Blows 10:10
Cheat Sheet: imgur.com/a/YS...
Part 2 Sources
UA-cam - Valreth - “Vanilla WoW [Elysium] Melee Guide”
• Vanilla WoW [Elysium] ...
This is where I initially learned general info on hit tables back in the day. Valreth did a very good job, though I felt like I could add some more!
Wowwiki.fandom - “Weapon Skill”
wowwiki.fandom...
Neyrissa - “Overview of Stats on Classic WoW (Mitigation Stats)”
classic.wowhea...
Mirayne - “forum post/experiment” + Blue post us.forums.bliz...
Vanilla-wow.fandom - “Hit”
vanilla-wow.fa...
Vanilla-wow.fandom - “Attack Tables”
vanilla-wow.fa...
Retrowow - Maggot - “Hit Tables”
retro-wow.com/...
Lusse - “Glancing Blow Explanation"
vanillagaming.o...
Vanilla WoW Wiki - “Crushing Blow”
vanilla-wow.fa...
Wowwiki.fandom - “Defense”
wowwiki.fandom...
Mangos - “Mangos classic code - Line 1330 and up (attack result chances) (2158 ranged)”
github.com/cma...
Part 2 Source Discussion:
Most of what I wanted to say was at (timestamp). I do want to add about Glancing Blow theories. It’s technically possible what theory 1 states but it has too many qualifiers to seem legit. We could technically test theory 1, but I’m willing to side more with theory 2. Reason being, it states that it’s chance to occur is just never dependant on weapon skill, and that weapon skill overage is simply what affects the final damage of a glancing blow.
Moving onto weapon skill, and Dodge and Miss percentages. I say there’s nothing we can do to negate Dodge and that’s effectively true. We can increase our weapon skill, but not by much. However, if we get a combination of a Racial Passive +5 weapon skill (Orc Axes, or Human Sword/Maces), on top of something like [Edgemaster’s Handguards] which give us +7 weapon skill to Axes/Swords/Maces, at max level, we’d have 312 weapon Skill. This equates to a full negation of the damage reduction from glancing blows (as stated in the video), but it also equals .48% reduction in your miss and the enemy’s dodge (due to how defense vs weapon skill works). That effectively increases your hit chance by an additional 1%. Let it be known, you end up getting this level of weapon skill, you essentially only need 8% additional hit chance, not 9%.
Lastly, Ares42 in the comments here told me that the way I talked about the defense cap is old meta. While it is the defense hard cap (where you lose efficacy from any +defense), if you're a warrior you should only strive for about 46 extra defense. This way, when you shield block, it perfectly pushes off both Crushing Blows AND Crit.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pop on by my twitch!
► / tjustsoup
This guide series is terrific. You’ve made it concise, understandable, and given plenty of examples and scenarios to help explain the stats. One of the most helpful wow video I’ve ever watched
Thankyou so much! Be careful, I have an errata for this specific video. Some of the info and math I did was off, mostly around how weaponskill works. I have a stickied coment on that, but if you're looking for other good stuff, Defcamp-and-Melderon have really good videos on this and similar stuff too!
That's convenient, I only just got around to watching part one. Clicked off to my sub page to find this. Timing is everything!
Ha! Well I hope it helped out!
Very nice breakdown of how every stat works, helped alot, nice visuals and clear explenations. Keep up the good work!
2:10 I was under the impression that you did not gain attack speed when you parry per se, but rather, that your swing timer instantly gains 40% towards your next swing. I could be wrong, but my swing timer in-game gains a chunk rather than speed up for a swing when I parry.
Outside of that small disagreement, this was a very well done and put together video. My only critique is that you seem to talk really, really fast and sometimes it's hard to parse all that you're saying in such a short time. Keep up the good work!
Technically yeah, that's what it does. Effectively speaking, it's the same thing - I figured that explanation would be more intuitive :P
To be completely fair and honest, it is. I even found it hard to word when explaining in the text above myself. Thanks for the response! You got some rad videos on this channel so far. I look forward to the next ones.
@@TheRealCeeJai Thanks! Oh and as for talking real fast.... yeah you got me there, hahaha. The video is already over 12 min long, I just wanted to save time as much as possible :P
This is bar far the best information I have seen on this subject. Well done bro!
Thanks!!
@@tJustSoup They are correct there is nothing out there as clear as this information. Keep up the good work!
Thank you so much for this video, it provided an amazing understanding of vanilla WoW combat!
fantastic. I had to learn this stuff by sniffing through random pieces of information scattered across the net. If only I could have viewed nice guides like this all those years ago!
Dude I feel you - in making this I had to go all over the place. It turns out, just as I had finished my research and writing the script, Defcamp and Melderon posted a video that goes over Hit Tables and Hit chance and all that jazz. I didn't even know about it until someone commented on the reddit thread where I posted THIS video. I was kinda bummed to know that I wasn't really doing anything super original but at least this contributes to making my overall guide thorough.
That said, if you're looking for more info on this kinda stuff, their video is incredible and thorough!
IT'S 2AM, MY BRAIN CANNOT HANDLE THIS RIGHT NOW
IF YOU NEED A BED TIME STORY MIGHT I SUGGEST THE GREEN HILLS OF STRANGLETHORN AUDIOBOOK VIDEO ALSO LOCATED ON MY CHANNEL. THIS IS NOT A PLUG, TOTALLY NOT A PLUG, NOPE.
Great video, looking forward to the next one!
Defense to negate crit is old Vanilla meta. In the same way that you can push crushing blows off the table, you can push crit off the table as well (since it's even lower priority). In fact a simple shield block at base stats puts you at 92,6% avoidance/block and 7,4% chance to be crushed. All you need is 7,4% total block or avoidance and you're fine. That's about 46 extra defense. With 5/5 Deflection you can push crushing blows even further down to 2,4%, which only requires 15 defense to be eliminated. People just didn't realize the value of shield block back in the day, before Illidan came around.
Yeah I had my hunches about that, I didn't know if that was a thing people did or not. I never talked with my old guild's tanks about this either so I don't know exactly what they did. Thanks for letting me know, I'm going to put an addendum at least in the cheat sheet.
@@tJustSoup They absolutely did. Defense was hot shit when it was first introduced, and being crit-capped was basically a requirement for main tanking. I can't say for sure if people figured things out towards the end of Vanilla, but as far as I know people didn't really discover the value of shield block before the introduction of Illidan and the requirement to push Shear off the attack table.
Hi. I got a special question. Let's say all i want is the procc of a weapon and i don't care about my white hit damage what so ever. Would my primary focus go to hit% first then? Assuming i got no hit% gear initially. Right? My plan is to get 300 mace, make Ebon hand next phase and farm HOJ. Buy some hit% rings and test out the combined effect of it all with windfury as shadow priest. To steer your mind on the right path, S.Priest get 15%+10%+15% shadow damage when using melee shadow damage proccs. This mean that with the items listed above and shadow oil (15% proc chance), a shadow priest can get max regen when going oom and still connect with a lot of solid damage in raids for example. Ot stand to see how good it might be, but the question is if 1, 2, or 3% hit will be enough to connect enough hits to assure proccs from the weapon. And if there is a problem, also remember that ironfoe is potentially better by a lot here for the same reason liste earlier but is harder to get obviously. I mean almost nobody even play shadow priest and push what we can do so cheers on the vid and have a nice season 👍🏻
Nice video. Explains so even I can understand. Sort of. Thanks!
Hahaha, yeah it's definitely a lot. It'll certainly make a ton more sense when we have the context of having played Classic when it comes out :D
Great series, I believe the only thing you didn't explain was how much damage a crushing blow deals. But maybe I just missed that part.
Son of a bitch, 5 years later I'm realizing I even said "Crushing Blows" in the intro but didn't actually explain it... That said, if you're in the territory where you're pushing crit off the table, you're pushing crushing blows off the table... so I guess there's that lol
It's not that complicated once you understand the logic of it all, well good thing some kind soul made this video so I can learn about that :D
Your videos are very well put together and informative. I appreciate you.
Your comment is kind and encouraging. I also appreciate you
So .. question for my understanding. Crit chance is simply reduced by pushing it off the Table via raising the evasion stats, or does it interact directly with the defense skill?
Reason why i ask: is +140 def. skill required for crit immunity, or can i take some dodge, block, parry stats instead of some defense peaces?
Well technically both. Your Defense skill increases your various evasion percentages. So yeah, you can mix defense + evasion, you'll just have to do some math to figure out if you're pushing crit off the table
@@tJustSoup Nice, thanks a lot :)
Nice info, great presentation, awesome video! +1 sub
I've been talking with some of my guildmates about the crit cap thing and they just reply that as a Dagger Rogue I should just stack crit, but a discussion I had with a family member about this is that me (as a Rogue with 45% crit when I have buffs) I'm wasting 9.5% crit and that I should get some more hit chance so as not to waste it, so I'm confused because I keep hearing conflicting evidence about this
here's the equation we used (using what you showed tJustSoup). 45-(26.5+9) = 9.5
Your pragmatic Crit Cap is only true for white damage melee hits. You still benefit from crit on your yellow damage melee hit abilities because the attack table for your yellow damage melee hit abilities have only 8% miss chance leaving more room for crits and hits. This is not the case for your white damage mele hits obviously and you would need more +hit to make more room on the table for crits.
This doesn't take into account one of the most accepted theories that weapon skill below or equal to 10 points less than npc defensive skill uses another equation to calculate hit chance. Thus 305 weapon skill only needs 6% to be hitted capped, or yellow hit capped for Dual Wielders. Every point added after 305 weapon skill, affects only Glancing blow dmg reduction, but not worth for the extra hit u get, cause its minimal.
This means you get almost 3% hit, by just being 305WS.
Do you consider this theory correct?
Second question: Once you are yellow hit cap, what do you prioritize, damage reduction in your glancing blows, or more hit (for dual wielders)?
I've heard that some people thought that there was a different equation when you're 10 skill levels under, but the equation I saw seemed to radical in practice. Regardless, the reason I don't use it is because Aggrend in the forum post I linked specifically talked about weaponskill vs defense skill briefly. That said, the link isn't working anymore - not sure why :( He didn't specifically disprove the existence of such a formula, but he didn't mention it and instead mentioned what I explained (superscript 5 @ 5:42). So no, I don't like that theory - seems like private server stuff to me.
Also, don't focus on hit cap first, focus on weapon skill. Like I said, weaponskill makes your glancing blows do more damage, but also makes it so that you don't lose 1% of your added hit chance. After that, you now only need 8% hit. After hit, if you're a dual-wielder, make sure you're not crit capped (make sure you don't have more crit chance than hit chance overall).
@@tJustSoupFirst of all, thx for your detailed response. Let me put in situation and then make the question. right now Im wearing Axe of the deep woods and felstriker (orc warrior), so I have 305Ws in MH and 300 in OH. Am i still yellow hit capped at 6% hit ratio because my MH is an axe? Do you need to be both 305 WS in both MH and OH?
Now, would you get edgemaster handguards with this weapons (and become 312 WS in MH and 307 WS in OH), thus reducing glancing blow damage a lot. Or focus on more hit ratio (DS set) to even decrease the amount of missed auto attack hits.
Let me also change my question from last boss: Once when you are 305WS+ or 310WS, do you focus on getting as much hit as possible or try to get crit cap?
@@ferrangrau8392 Your abilities go off your main hand only, so you only have to worry about that. Weaponskill is good up to 310. (5:00) Once you get up to 310, your glancing blows now do 100% damage. Weaponskill isn't worthless after that, but 310 is where I'd say stop prioritizing it because you don't get AS MUCH of a benefit anymore. At that point, since you're a dual wielder, yeah go for yellow hit cap. Since your 310 weaponskill will decrease your chance to miss by a little bit more than having 300 or 305, then honestly you could get a total of 6% hit chance and be fine. If you want to max out your hit chance you'd need 8% but honestly it's not that big of a deal.
But that's for yellow hit cap ONLY - since you're dual wielding definitely realize that you'll still miss a lot of white hits but that's okay. Once you get your 6% or 7% +hit, then start juggling your +crit chance. Figure out what your crit is and make sure that you aren't crit capping.
Hope that makes sense! :D
I run this week to onyxia and MC whit only 6% of hit and DW whit 2 swords (I'm human, so I have 305 weapon skill) and I can confirma that's correct, I don't miss any skill (yellow damage) and my autoattacks (white damage) miss close to 19%
1- If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to "10" the formula for MISS CHANCE is:
5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%
2 If the difference is greater than "10", the formula for MISS CHANCE is:
6% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%
@@tJustSoup I might of missed something, but in the video you say for every 1 point in weapon skill = 3% increase to glancing blows. So if you get +10 weapon skill wouldn't that only be (3*10) 30% increase to glancing blows? Yet in the video @6:54 the table says +10 weapon skill pushes 40% glancing blow off the table? So wouldn't that still leave 10% glancing blow chance? Did I miss something? Thanks in advance
What hit cap are tanks in with a 1h and shield? Not dual wielding, but just using 1 1h wep. I know the yellow dmg hit cap is the same but does that mean they have a 27% chance to miss their autos or is that only applicable to the offhand wep?
Hello tell me plz Glansing blow work in pvp ? Or its just for pve? Ty
I understand that hit cap for yellow abilities for a dual wielding rogue at lvl 60 is 9%, however I'm confused on how (if it all) beneficial any additional hit cap past 9% is for rogues? So if you're a rogue with a 9% hit chance, should you be looking to prioritize getting more hit chance? Is it possible to have too much hit chance?
I also need to know this!!! Please
Hit raiting on rogues will always give you a damage increase unless you hit the cap of 27% which will never happen. As a rogue, more than half of your damage is white hits, which is what you are affecting with extra hit raiting past 9%. So yes hit raiting is valuable but you need to balance it with AP and Crit and try to balance and see which will give you more damage.
Hi, what would the data look like vs a boss from the front? With some bosses in aq/nax you dont always have the option to attack from the back. Would you need more hit% to compensate?
Very nice work! Thanks for this
thanks very good info to have specialy when im not use to be melee but ranges
There is an additional 1% miss chance penalty when fighting something greater than 10 defense above your weapon skill. 1% hit is ignored and you need 9% not 8% hit chance vs raid bosses.
Additionally, you can't glancing blow with a yellow. so you can remove that from the hit table. Giving 40% more crit cap.
5:45 The calculations I use, I'm using a situation where a player has 305 WS
@@tJustSoup at 305 WS you need 6% hit.
Alright,
So if miss, doge, parry, block and crit are calculated together, leaving the remainder to be basic hit chance. Would raising your m/d/p/b therefore increase your chance to be critically hit?
Like you said in an earlier response, "if you end up with 35% to hit but have 10% crit chance, you really only have a 25% chance to regular hit and 10% crit chance". Does that mean the more evasion stats you have (+ block), the more likely you'll be critically hit WHEN you're actually hit?
If not, that would mean that your 10% crit chance is actually only 10% of that 35% (3.5%). It just seems bizarre that gaining more m/d/p/b will actually lead to you being crit more often when you actually are hit without actually reducing your targets crit chance.
Love the idea of that as a reckoning pally though 😃
I guess to maybe simplify:
If I have 25% crit chance but only 20% hit chance leftover after calculating all my targets miss, dodge, parry and block - does that mean 100% of the hits I eventually land, will be critical hits?
Those Videos are Awesome man! I already tanked MC back in the days but i didn‘t know all of that! Extremly good Video!
Ps. I‘m interested in how high the chance is that u get knocked from ur Mount when an NPC attacks you or if there is a difference if ur facing them or not when they hit u.
Keep up the good Videos i‘m waiting for them
Great video! Just wanted to clarify something, is the crit cap 30%? Just curious, i cant find that info on combat swords.
The crit cap is going to be whatever your left over percentage is after the mob's miss chance , dodge chance, parry, glance, and block chance. So like, if you have no added hit chance - looking at the dual-wielder's table - you're going to have 26.5% chance to hit. Which essentially means, that's your crit cap. Your crit chance cannot exceed that number because THAT is that left over percentage (cus all the dodge and miss and shit has the "priority" if you will). So what I'm saying is - your crit crap will change, and it's technically dependent on how much added %hit chance you have. To figure out what YOU need, you'll have to do some math based on what stats/talents you have. You can definitely do it all yourself but I'm like 90% sure there's an addon (the one I used was called "Theorycraft") that can give you most of the information you need. Also, I definitely said some super wrong shit in the video about weaponskill, but if you want to learn more about that I have a pinned comment with my errata re-explaining it CORRECTLY.
TL;DR your crit cap is around 30% yeah, but it'll change depending on a couple stats, but mostly just any added %hit chance. Hope this helps, sorry for the essay of a response :P
All good man, thanks for responding, yah it's a little confusing haha, I'll check out what you were talking about to see if it helps.
Best Source for Attack Tables: github.com/magey/classic-warrior/wiki/Attack-table#glancing-blows
Shoutout to Defcamp and Melderon, they're better than me ua-cam.com/video/lLD12oUwJoE/v-deo.html
WHAT YOU'RE ABOUT TO READ IS MY ERRATA FOR THIS VIDEO - TL;DR AT THE END.
Hey folks! I've had a lot of questions about Glancing Blows and Weaponskill. It turns out my understanding of Glancing Blow Damage calculation and how weaponskill is used were both flawed. I based most of my knowledge for this off of a bluepost made by Agrend a while back that I cited. That bluepost is now taken down but is directly quoted in both my video and the source I've included right at the top of this comment. Some of the things that Agrend posted were worded in a weird way. For example, he said specifically that the first percentage of "+hit chance" you get from gear/talents is ignored IF your opponent's defense skill exceeds 10 more than your weaponskill. According Magey's Github page I've linked above, that's actually not ENTIRELY true. How it actually works is that if your opponent's defense skill exceeds 10 more than your weaponskill, it has a different calculation (see the github link). I mean sure, the math checks out to be the same at the end of the day: If you have a weaponskill of 300, you need 9% hit chance to hit cap. If you have weaponskill of 305, you need 8% to hitcap. So that's great and all, but the way that Miss chance is calculated changes. That's annoying. That's something I definitely didn't know before making this video. THAT'S MY FAULT! So I'm now going to definitively (hopefully) squash any more questions about weaponskill. If you still have questions, don't be afraid to ask though - I'm far from perfect at explaining things!
So:
Glancing Blow damage is even more complicated than I thought. It has a low end and high end calculation (see github link). The chance for a glancing blow to occur is the same as explained in the video, but it turns out that Glancing blow damage is negated by an average of 35% (not 30% as I said in the video). According to the calculations done by Magey and their team, supposedly the key number is 308 weaponskill. This is the point at which you *reduce* the glancing blow *damage reduction* by an avg. of 30%, leaving us with a glancing blow that does on average 95% damage.
308 weaponskill is where you stop getting any benefit from weaponskill regarding glancing blow damage reduction. Your glancing blows can deal anywhere from 91% damage to 99% damage. So with this, compounded on how weaponskill works with Miss chance; it turns out that weaponskill is actually EVEN MORE important than I originally thought. Oh hey, dodge chance is supposed to change with the Delta of Weaponskill to Defense skill. I say supposed to because all Magey does is gives the same calculation for "below 10 weaponskill difference" Miss chance formula, but for Dodge. I guess this really only matters for Dual-wielders when accounting for how much actual hit you have so as to not be crit capped. (This gives you like 1.5% more hit chance. I mean it's not entirely insignificant, but... asdf;lkj)
So in conclusion...
TL;DR - At 305 Weaponskill, your glancing blows deal avg 85% normal damage, and you have a 6% chance to miss.
At 308 Weaponskill, your glancing blows deal an avg. 95% normal damage (as best as you can get), and you have a 5.5% chance to miss.
At 315 Weaponskill, your glancing blows STILL deal an avg. 95% normal damage, and now you have a 5% chance to miss.
After that, weaponskill works like how I said in the video, but it's no longer worth investing in - get +5% hit chance and you're good to go
TL;DRTTL;DR - Get [Edgemaster's Wristguards] and +5% hit
Now if you'll excuse me, I have important business to attend to, such as crying myself to sleep.
There is something that I really don't understand and I hope that you can clarify this: Just like Vanilla times, I am playing as a Retri Paladin in WoW Classic. Without going too much into my spec and gear details, I want to mention that I have Precision 3/3 from protection, which gives me %3 hit chance. Besides that, I am a Human Paladin and I use Obisidian Edged Blade, which is a 2 Handed Sword that gives me +8 to Swords skills. So with my racial passive, I have 313 Two Handed Swords skills. The part that I can not understand is the math here. I know that we do the math by taking 63 level raid mobs/bosses into account with doing 315-(our weapon skill) etc. but I don't understand why people keep saying that 'if you are a human, you already start with %3 hit chance if you use mace/swords' From my BİS items, I currently have %4 hit chance from my gear. Add 3/3 Precision talents to this and it makes %7 hit chance. This is the percentage that I see when I open up my character sheet as well. So, if the addon that I use for detailed character stats is not wrong, the human racial bonus is not being taken into account here? Where is the bonus that I get from having 313 Two Handed Swords skills? I hope I was able to explain this because it is going to have a huge impact on my future BİS goals.
So, how I explained weaponskill in the video is flawed, unfortunately. However I made a stickied comment explaining how it actually works. But to answer your question specifically - having that racial does give you 3% hit chance (actually, it makes hitting mob have a 6% chance to miss but, semantics). So your hit cap, if you're at 305 Weaponskill, is 6%. If you're at 310, it's 5.5%. If you're at 315, it's 5%.
So if your weaponskill is like 313, and you get 3% hit from Precision, you really only need 2% extra hit chance. Sorry for the confusion - however now you can get more crit and more damage stats!
@@tJustSoup People have told me that +5 weapon skill only affect white attacks for hunters, so I still need hit cap 8% for yellow attacks as hunter ?
Not the 6% I've people are recommending as hunter.
Also, if I want to waste money, is Flawless Arcanite Rifle with +4 gun skill a decent weapon for Molten Core raid bosses?
@@Bill-zp2mt I don't know about that, I think it depends on if WoW treats hunter abilities as "Spells" or "Abilities." If they're spells, then your hit chance shouldn't have any affect on the spell anyways, it'd be about the enemy's resistance. If they're abilities, then the weaponskill should be factored in, just like it is with like, Warriors or Rogues. I would think weaponskill isn't actually bad for hunters but, I've been wrong before :\
BTW, I'm also a paladin but I'm wondering if it's worth getting 3/3 precision since I'm going for 31 holy, 20 retri spec. If I use a 2 hand mace or sword, considering human racial, how much hit chance would I need to be hit capped for pvp? Only 2%? And if so, is it worth going for 2/3 precision? Cause I'm sacrificing a lot of useful talents in the Ret tree like pursuit of justice, eye for an eye an 5/5 crit chance.
@@miguelanessoares7039 I highly recommend you and many others to read this to better understand hit chance and weapon skills; www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/bwpyjv/what_the_new_knowledge_about_weapon_skill_means/
Alot of conflicting information regarding this. Alot of people are stating that as a human warrior using swords/maces (DW fury), you only need 6% hit from gear in order to make sure your yellow attacks always land. Is that correct? Do i get 0.4 hit from each point of weapon skill beyond 300 if fighting a boss?
Check the pinned comment!
Dude you are on point. Anychance we could get a little video on "Proc's per minute, On hit effects and When struck mechanics" Thanks
Thanks dude!! Sadly I don't make videos anymore, but over the past year I've been considering doing it again. If I did it prolly would be more general gaming related and less about WoW. That said, I can tell you that procs per min and on hit effects are kinda nebulous. Different things have their own proc rates and the only way to find out is by testing, to my knowledge.
I'm a bit confused about how +Weapon Skill and +Hit Chance interacts...
Does Weapon Skill also reduce your chance to miss an enemy, or does it just increase the damage of your glancing blows?
With +10 Weapon skill, would you still have 8% chance to miss a raid boss with white attacks? If so, then really you want to aim for +10 Wep Skill and also 9% Hit Rating as a DPS
Weapon Skill does both, which is why it's so good up until you get glancing blows to 100% damage. For every point of weapon skill, your opponent loses .04% to dodge, and you lose .04% to miss. So with +10 Weaponskill, that's .4% in both, meaning you essentially get .8% more Hit to work with. If you now get 8 +hit%, you'll be left with a .2% to miss, which is honestly negligible.
Bro that’s the best explanation one could find to address this matter, but how does it reflect or impact pvp the weapon skill subject, I am an undead rogue and I would like to know if weapon skill helps a lot in pvp, please address this matter.
Regards.
weapon skill isn't bad for pvp by any means, but it's just not as important as it is in PvE - entirely because of glancing blows. Glancing blows take away SOOO much damage, that you NEED to get rid of them. In PvP glancing blows just don't exist. However, since you're a rogue, you obviously don't wanna waste energy on shit that won't give you a combo point, right? So you want to at least get that Yellow hit cap, or get close to it. In PvP you also actively need to seek out stamina so you don't get clapped, so I don't think you're going to get your yellow hit cap - but definitely try to come close. Another thing to keep in mind, Agility is fucking amazing for a rogue, but remember to make sure your hit chance exceeds (or really at least meets) your crit chance. 7:45 I talk about crit cap.
Also let me clarify I am far from a PvP expert, and I don't play rogue normally, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But, I'm fairly confident in my theories here :) All I can confirm is how the systems work, the theorycrafting is up to other rogue players.
@@tJustSoup that is right what you are saying there..
Sorry! know you covered it, but +weapon skill doesn't really do much for hunters in regards to bows / xbows?
Sorry for the late response! It's good but like, you don't need anywhere near as much +weaponskill as a melee. Provided weaponskill works the same with ranged weapons (which I have no reason to believe it does but hey, I've been hella wrong before): at 305 you'll be at 6% miss chance (so you've basically gained 2% hit). So like, if you're a Troll with a Bow, or Dwarf with a Gun, then you only need +6% hit chance and you're set to have 100% hit chance (essentially). If you aren't those races, you REALLY want 5 weaponskill specifically. The benefit from weaponskill starts to decrease the more you have, if that makes sense. If my explanation doesn't exactly make sense or isn't convincing (no offense taken lol), definitely check out a Hunter guide - they should tell you.
TL;DR the ranged weaponskill racials are definitely worth. Try to the sweetspot of +5weaponskill, no more no less.
Hi @tJustSoup in 1 word , an orc 60 with an axe 1hand ( 305 weapon skill ) = something like +3% hit against same level ? or +3% hit against level63 ? or +3% hit againt boss ? Thanks
No. 305 Weaponskill would be +5 weaponskill over max, meaning we get -0.2% to miss attacks, -0.2% to be dodged, -0.2% to be parried, -0.2% to be blocked, but we gain 15% of our damage back on glancing blows. Also, unless we're tanking, we should be behind the boss, so the reduction to parry and block is insignificant. So essentially we get +.4% hit per the +5 weaponskill.
How does +wep skill like human racial factor in to hit and Crit Chance? As a human rogue, do I still need 8% hit (9% in practice) or do I need less because I have 305 weapon skill?
The calculations I do assume the player has at least 305 Weapon Skill, so that 8% I'm referencing is what you want. I also JUST NOW realized I mis-wrote at 5:40 at point #5. I meant that if you have 305 skill, you DON'T have 1% of hit ignored. So if you choose to not get any added weaponskill on gear, and you're a human or an orc, you don't even have to worry about your first 1% of +hit being ignored.
310 weapon ( dagger rogue with 9% hit rate and 30 % unbuffed crit chance ) is it balanced ?
So you have a base 26.5% chance to miss a boss from behind, then you add hit with that number to get hit chance? In your example it was 26.5% miss chance + 8% hit = 34.5% hit chance, which is your crit cap. Am I understanding this correct?
Also would there be no technical crit cap for yellow abilities after the hit soft cap?
so What would be the correct hit chance cap for a hunter with TrueAim Gauntlets? (+8 bow/xbow/guns +1% hit chance). Is it really lowered to 5.66~6% hit chance cap ?
it's actually lowered to 5%
My Man!
I'm 11% hit and 310dagger skills, I saw miss (white) twice in Scholo w/ the warlock mob and this is behind the target. I should not have missed because I'm super capped right?
Daggers, you're dual-wielding right? Your hit cap on white hits is gonna be like 20 @ 310weaponskill
@@tJustSoup Thanks for your reply, so my 11% is only half of my hit cap (white) I guess I should stack more till I'm close to 20%, but then it will sacrifice other priorities.
@@jauxed well you don't really need to worry about being white hit capped. Just worry about making sure you have more chance to hit than chance to crit. Right now it sounds like you're okay!
so if u have +8% hit and u hit a raidboss from behind, u only have 6.5% (from dodge) risk to not do any damage?
meaning u have 93.5% chance to hit and thus theoretically would be critt capped at 93.5%?
Well no, because you still have to factor in the 40% chance to glancing blow. Even if you get your glancing blow damage to not be negated, those hits STILL count as glancing blows, and the glancing blows can't be Crits - only Hits can be Crits. But the part about the Dodge is correct, yeah.
@@tJustSoup ye, i meant to talk about yellow attacks here .
so what is the best stats crit% and hit % if you are dpser?
As a dagger comabt rogue In classic i have 5% from talent and +6% from gear, I only miss every once in a while am I close to cap or at it?
If you're flanking (behind the enemy), you'll definitely be past yellow hit cap. With normal attacks however, you're definitely not. That said, again, don't worry about hitting the white hit cap, just make sure that all your auto attacks aren't crits or glancing blows. If that's the case, you're probably exceeding crit cap, which means you're wasting crit chance.
how much u got crit on yours rogue?
So if I get gear with +crit I actually just lowered my chance to hit the mob? So I should never get +crit cause it causes me to miss more attacks ?? Doesn't make any sense to me..
Not exactly. For example, if I have 25% chance to hit, and 10% chance to crit, I really only have 15% to normal hit, and 10% of the rest of that chance is counted as my crit - Crit is reliant on your chance to hit. You don't lose any chance to land an attack on your enemy by gaining crit, you just change your chance to normally hit, into a better hit (a crit).
What you're seeing is that Miss gets calculated, then dodge, then parry, then glancing blows, blocks, crits, and then whatever percentage left over that doesn't add up to 100% is just your normal hits. Does that make more sense?
Ahh now I get it ! Thanks a lot
Would there be a point in going over 9% hit rating with a 300 weapon skill baseline?
If you're not dual wielding, no. That hit chance just gets wasted :/
I am dual-wielding. I should go past 9%?
@@gullf1sk First, your priority is weaponskill. If you get +5 weaponskill, your yellow hitcap goes from 9% to 6% (or 24% to 21% in the case of dual wielders). The way I explained weaponskill in relation to this was wrong - I made a stickied comment on this video if you're interested, but that's really all you NEED to know.
But back to the question: After you get your - let's say - 9% +hit, then you want to focus on making sure you don't have more chance to crit, than you do chance to hit. My section on crit cap is thankfully NOT wrong! And sure, you still benefit from having more hit chance than crit chance (up to a maximum of 24% added hit chance @ 300 weaponskill) - but it's not worth prioritizing. Not wasted, but not worth it methinks.
hell yeah +1
anyone know of a good in-game mod that calculates your characters stat distributions (as shown in the video) based on current spec and current gear to help you determine if you have too much/or not enough of a given stat based on what you want to do (PvE or PvP)?
CharacterStatsClassic, you can download it in the twitch client too
I'm very positive the weapon skill doesn't increase the way you describe it, it's not linear and having >305 weapon skill is not very useful
it's not exactly - I have a stickied comment showing my errata in the video better explaining
any idea how boss armor values calculate into %damage reduced vs a player?
Do you mean Boss's armor vs a player's physical attack? I would believe it's the same formula @6:00 but since we don't really have any "armor penetration" other than in spells/abilities, then it's really not a big deal. The only important thing is "Less armor = more damage taken," which is why we stack sunders :)
@@tJustSoup this video still hold up and is incredible! Thank you so much for all the time and effort put into this series!
@@avargs3505 Thanks so much for saying so, it means a lot! I also feel obligated to say, make sure you check out my stickied comment on this video because I got some stuff wrong that desperately needed a correction :)
Is there any point to go higher than 310? Like 315 or even more.
It's not worthless - you still lose Miss chance and gain crit chance and such. But it's very minimal, and at that point you aren't adding damage to your glancing blows, which is the purpose of gaining weaponskill in the first place. THAT SAID, I'm looking over a new source that calculates glancing blows a quite differently, but just as well calculates a lot of things involved with weaponskill a bit differently. I'm going to post a stickied comment to this video in the very near future about it.
@@tJustSoup or maybe video update :P
doing god's work 👍
3:56 this kind of abstraction seems unnecessary to me?
Is it 9% hit or 8%? Had a whole guild arguing with me it was 9
At 300 Weaponskill (no extra weaponskill), it is 9% miss chance you have to make up for. At 305 WS, it's 6%. Sorry for the confusion, I spoke incorrectly in the video but I made an errata in the description!
Can anyone confirm me if Troll hunters with bow hit cap is really 6% ?
Perry the Platypus!!
A-GENT, PEEEEEEEEEEE
Your numbers on glances arent right. Your glances have 35% reduced damage, not 30, and the best you can get to is 5% reduced damage. You can never have glances do 100% of normal damage. Also, whilst the 20% reduction with 10 skill is correct, it doesnt scale linearly at 3% per point - not even close in fact. at 308 skill you deal only 7% reduced damage already, the last 2 points you only gain 1% glance damage, and isnt worth taking.
I'm aware - I made an errata pinned comment.
Just so not to be entirely negative, on every other point, this is BY FAR the best vid ive seen on this, and one of the few that actually covers all the necessary points (yours is the only one that mentions melee crit suppression for example, and ive watched about 20 so i can link a good one to our melees who cant maths).
@@gorgreal12345 lol much appreciated, I did a shitton of research on the weaponskill stuff that ended up mostly falling flat on it's face :| Wanted to make sure I at least rectified it in some fashion
@@tJustSoup No probs - Im serious though - Ive watched maybe 6 hours of vids on this, and this is the only one ill be happy to link to our dps, just with a couple of provisos
I wanted to join WoW but the hit chance system is confusing AF. Yeah, I'm not gonnna play :(
WoW youtubers love to drag out and overcomplicate game mechanics.. None of this really matters just dont attack things higher levels and you will wont miss
You speak so fast and throw everything at our faces that most people will dismiss you. Thank you for that, i was worried everyone was going to understand this and be better than me in game. Btw all of this information is better explained in claasicdb i think, i understood it immediately when i read it there. but in this video it all seems so complicated
You'd get more views if you tailored this for sod just being +2. Yeah I know I could follow this and extrapolate the information and this video is 4 years old but I did search for concrete information because napkin math is fallable.
Well it looks like you are wrong on almost every single of your Attack Tables.
there are 2 formulas for calculating defense to weapon skills equations,
and those are as follows:
1) if diff 10 you get 1 % as above +0.4 for every another diff point
so attack table for player with 300 skill attacking a boss will look like this:
miss 5% + 10 x 0.1% + 5 x 0.4% = 8% (+19% for dw)
dodge 5% + 10 x 0.1% + 5 x 0.4% = 8%
parry have some different formula, but its estimated around 14%
block 5% + 10 x 0.1% + 5 x 0.4% = 8%
crit 5% - (10 x 0.1% + 5 x 0.4%) = 2%
another thing wrong here is, you cant actually "push glancing blow of the tables".
There is nothing you can do about theyr % as they are capped at (player lvl * 5).
Mob at
60 lvl will give you 10% glancing.
61 lvl will give you 20% glancing
62 lvl will give you 30% glancing
63 lvl will give you 40% glancing
x 0.75 speed,thank me later lmao
Yellow hit cap is not 8% it's 9%
5:45
I also discussed this in the description. My calculations assumed for +5 weaponskill. Orcs and Humans just automatically get this, but a player can get this through gear quite easily.
tJustSoup my apologies, I see it now.
@@Jeffisafoot all good yo, also it's good to know that even if you were at like a 99% chance to yellow hit altogether, that's honestly basically as good as 100% :P
NEVER THOUGHT ID HAVE TO HAVE A PHD IN MATH AND MECHANICS TO PLAY A FUCKIN GAME
unfortunately weapon skill against higher level targets is working quite differently, it is completely wrong.
With 305 weapon skill you are reducing the chance to miss by 3% and the chance to dodge by 0.5%.
At 310 weapon skill you are reducing the chance to miss by 3.5% (-0.5 compared to 305) and the chance to dodge by 1% (-0.5 compared to 305).
At 308 the glancing cap is reached at which all of your glancing blows dealing damage somewhere 91 - 99% of base damage (avg 95%).
Furthermore the hit caps are also wrong. Its for 9% single wield and for 28% dual wield in Vanilla/TBC/Classic environment. It got reduced by 1% each in WotLK.
Overall glancing blows working also completely differently.
for the first point the benefit in dealing increased glancing damage is way higher.
From 300 to 305 your glancing damage increases from an average of 65% base to 85% base.
From 305 to 308 (glancing cap) your glancing damage increases from an average of 85% base to 95% base.
Very bad source to understand melee attack table correctly, sorry bro : /
KR Former EJ
Thanks for pointing this out, I made a huge pinned comment re-explaining weaponskill citing the Attack Table Github article that Magey put out.
does that mean as a rogue with 305 weapon skill and 5% hit chance from talents i only need to 1% hit chance from gear to get the yellow hit cap? (since i get -3% miss from weapon skill and -5% from talents)
@@Rotsar909 that would be correct
pretty sure hit cap is 9% not 8%
pretty sure you're wrong
Look at every melee guide out there, they all say 9% hit if you have 300 weapon skill and 6% for orc with axes/human with swords or someone with edgemaster gloves
@@Eric-ch6vq no
Very nice, but any tank in 2020 seeking to reach 440 Def is a noob, just sayin'
Great video, maybe slow down the speaking a little bit? I have to put you on .75 speed lol
I loved it as is!
This is all wrong
Cool video, but m8, speak a bit slower. You go very fast☺️