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Even vegans are realizing that veganizm is not the way to go. Vegans try to this whole moral bs and its no longer holding up to a lot of vegans. Supposedly about 80% of peole who go vegan or vegetarian go back to eating meat eventually. We are animals in a stand ourselves. So us are plant eternal and some of love that taste of a dead animal. This is natural.
Maybe he is hooked on the casomorphin in dairy. Precision fermentation dairy products from a company called "Perfect Day" are already on sale here in the USA. I don't know about the UK. One of their products is "Brave Robot" brand ice cream, and I hear they make a cream cheese product.
I have sympathy for people in his position. Something hasn't clicked yet so he doesn't fully see how wrong it is to harm animals. I was in that position for years, where I wanted to be vegan but will power alone wasn't enough to stop the behaviour permanently. Then one day it suddenly clicked and there was no struggle at all in avoiding all products derived from animals.
@shiv_ring no, I think it was just thinking about the subject and really considering the suffering repeatedly that did it. I think most often it's an accumulation rather than one event.
@@shiv_ring There was for me, though it was mostly gradual .. I'd always hated eating red meat, and quit in high school, and wanted to be vegetarian then, in college I started educating myself about animal farming in general - eggs, dairy, and poultry became easy to avoid after watching all the documentaries and such, and the last thing to go was fish. I just didn't get it, they seemed abundant, less complex socially and psychologically, they were a lean protein source, omegas etc .. but days before I was committed to quitting all animal products (New Years resolution 2013), I saw someone pulling small a net of 4 or 5 fish up on a dock, and that was it for me. Watching the way they writhed and struggled as they were chucked into a bucket was brutal for me. And this is what we consider the most ethical way to harvest them - small scale fishing! More than ten years later, I'm alive, well, and SO grateful my path led me to a compassionate lifestyle, including abstaining from sweat shop made clothing/fast fashion, and other unethically produced goods, as much as possible.
One thing that helps with breaking addictions is becoming aware that the will of man is feeble, and the will of God is infinite. God is with us. Ask, and you shall receive. Much love.
As a vegan, obviously I disagree with a lot of his points, but I really liked how he approached this debate with an open mind; too often, debate turns into trying to "own" the other person instead of a learning opportunity, but this guy laid out his points, admitted when he was unsure or wrong, while still asserting his beliefs and the rationale behind it, even if I disagree with those beliefs.
I've been vegan for almost two years now in Argentina. A large part of our culture surrounds animal abuse: asados, jineteadas, etc. And almost all of our income comes from exportation of animal corpses. Aaand we are a third world country: basically, we earn less, and things are more expensive. Even with everything, I had never ever once thought to stop being vegan, it's easy and affordable. But most importantly, it is kind and beautiful. If I can be vegan here, most people can, there is no excuse.
@@rondarkman. My uncle has one hanging in his living room. You're not as shocking as you think you are. You do realize the majority of us were carnist before going vegan, right? I ate flesh and secretions for 35 years. Again, you guys will be the last generation so I'm not really worried about it. Go out in nature while you still can!
@@rondarkman. Now, I know you're old enough to have heard of a dictionary - why don't you go leaf that little guy open. You do remember the alphabet, right?
@AnnoyingButMorallyConsistent these ppl r such a joke 😂 imagine being so internally guilty that ur a meat eater who watches vegan videos and tries to troll vegan comments to feel better about ur own decisions. It's blatant to everyone else but them and it's like watching a child obviously lie about something.
@@rondarkman. Oh Boomer Steve, it's only a matter of time until you can no longer do these things. The younger generations will make sure your legacy doesn't continue.
@@annoyingbutmorallyconsistent Oh wow, I kinda wish you posted their comment in your reply because this is the first time I've seen them delete a comment :3
I have been an ethical vegan for over 14 years and I was a massive carnivore prior, I am and was an animal lover and watched Earthlings I forced myself to watch the entire documentary, once it was done I said to myself, "looks like you have a big decision, you are either NOW an ethical vegan OR you are a HYPOCRITE" I chose veganism, the first 6 months were hell, since I did not care for veggies or fruit I loved steaks, and burger with fries! But it was an ethical choice so I lived on potatoes, Fritos, Oreos, for a long time until one day around the 4th month I finally felt that shift in my taste buds then it was pretty easy from then on. This guy is looking for an excuse to make exceptions to his veganism, once he does cross that line he is now on a diet, and ALL diets fail!
I got a free vegan magazine and it changed my life. Sounds like the weirdest thing, but it came with wall posters and from then on I thought “I no longer want to eat dead skin”. The magazine had this beautiful baby pig on the front with long eye lashes and it just reminded me of a child with its own individual personality. The next day I woke up and had oats for breakfast and thought “no animals died for me to eat”. It made me smile.
@@rondarkman. People hate animal abusers. Even prisoners will get beaten up by other prisoners if they are known to abuse animals or children. The fact that you are proud to say you abuse animals, speaks volumes about you. You're blocked. As I would block anyone who admitted to abusing children also. Animals are defenseless. So you're not all that by hurting those that are weaker. I mean anyone can hurt the weak lol. Then you come on a vegan comment to gush about how cruel you are. Come on man. You can't be like this in the real world. You'd get beat up every day. You're a nameless troll. A big man wannabe. A looser. This is the only way you know that you can get some attention. I feel sorry for you.
@@rondarkman.this is so funny. This just reminds me of a response I used to see a lot on some videos. “I’ll eat double or triple the amount of meat I would just bc you’re vegan. So your effort is useless”. Idk man. Seems like you gotta get a life before you die lmfao
What he really has an issue with is the guilt he feels after lapses in self control violate the ethical values he claims to uphold. He won't fully commit because he's afraid of failing, but his lack of conviction is what's leading to these lapses he's so ashamed of. Dude needs to stop worrying about what's out of his control and take accountability for his choices where he can
@@racheldeschenes3804 yep he wanted for Joey to say "oh yeah it's forgivable" when I am shocked any "Vegan" can ever "lapse". like what The hell. go watch Dominion again. if you even THINK about "lapsing" I prescribe you watch Earthlings over and over, and Dominion !!
I think a lot of people are in denial about the harm they cause themselves when they give up on their moral principles. So when we talk about veganism as a burden, a lot of times that’s being done without weighing it against the harm we cause ourselves when we feel unprincipled. There’s a reason why people who have strong principles live satisfactory lives while unprincipled people just kind of aimlessly walk around chasing momentary pleasure through: sex, drugs, attention, social validation, food, comfort, and hoarding wealth, which never truly leads them to peaceful satisfaction. Constantly looking for a loophole in animal rights is similar to the way crooks try to find ways to commit crimes that district attorneys just can’t fully prosecute them for. It’s a scummy way of living one’s life and erodes your dignity.
Exactly, he thinks he can let himself off the moral hook and be free from self judgement by "going on holiday" from veganism, when the reality is that his conflict is guilt over not having the conviction to consistently act on his moral intuitions.
No, morals don’t “run out”. Either you have morals and you respect the animals or you don’t. There is no middle ground. Yes, it is hard sometimes, but it is hard for the animals ALL the time.
@@rondarkman. Boomer Steve - are you sure you know how to cook? Your generation just expects the women to wait on you hand and foot. You seem like the type.
@@zachattack9801 people who use virtue signaling as an insult like you have don't understand what the saying actually means and are just trying to avoid the actual issue.
This was a really interesting debate. His point on how most things we do in our society cause a certain level of suffering and how its difficult to know what to do/ what not to do and where the threshold lies is a really good one. I agree, that it isn't physically possible for the average person to be 100% moral and to cause 0 suffering. However, for me, its about doable and sustainable moral behaviour. Being vegan is becoming increasingly easy, and is a really efficient way of doing a lot of good, without it being impossible. So while I still need to buy a phone, and clothes and food that unfortunately is transported across the world, I can attempt to reduce my impact within this system by making small, sustainable changes (eg. being vegan or buying second hand). So to counter him, while it is difficult/ impossible to be completely virtuous, being vegan is a great way to help that. And stopping for 3 months a year seems pointless as it undoes the hard work put in to BE more virtuous. Yes we cant mentally handle being completely ethical or perfect, but stopping veganism in order to achieve this seems silly when we already do 'unethical' things simply to survive in our society. I hope that kind of made sense! :)
I have an example. I used to buy bananas that are not organic because they are not on the "dirty dozen" list and we don't eat the peel. Then I read (on Food Revolution) about the people that harvest bananas and how badly they are treated and that organic growers have less abuse. Since I can afford organic bananas, I started buying organic bananas to help reduce harm to the people who harvest them.
@@yosf5221 I got two sixteen year old boys they are vegan activists. I am self employed in the sport fishing industry. They asked me how I live with myself knowing that everything we have has been paid for with the blood of innocent animals? I really didn't want to raise hypocrites because that wouldn't be right for vegan activists accepting assets from someone in the sport fishing industry. So they don't have cell phones, college funds, they refuse to get part time jobs so they don't have their own money, I also cut them out of my will they will get nothing. However I do provide them with a roof over their heads, their locally grown organic food all year round. And we live in Northeast Iowa. Their science teacher taught them that a truck hauling twenty cows ten miles to the slaughterhouse releases more pollution than the same truck driving 2,500 miles loaded with plants for human consumption. She also points out to the students whose parents are in animal agriculture and people like me that we are all the second coming of Hitler. She really explains to the students that I am probably the worst person in town. Because growing up I commercially fished in Alaska. She said one hundred percent of the pollution in the ocean is from commercial fishermen. She didn't mention anything about the cruise ships because she has family that hold director positions and make really good money on those ships. They have been known for throwing trash into the ocean. But one can go without so many items that we take for granted today. Twenty five years ago you wouldn't really think you could buy a car with a cell phone. My boys wanted to buy these shoes but I explained to them that they weren't vegan leather and everything you buy has to be vegan approved. Shampo, toothpaste, everything even your clothes. They are doing very well without the luxury items that I took away from them. When they get out on their own they will know that they don't need all those items that a non vegan uses everyday..
@@shawndarling1980 I don't know how your comment related to bananas and making small changes to lessen the harm we cause in the world, but thank you for sharing your cognitive dissonance. I hope you will be able to see a way out of harming fish so you can live in peace with your sons.
@@yosf5221 Sorry about that but see most vegans don't see or care about the human side in harvesting plants for human consumption. I should have put that in my rant. I went and showed my boys the lettuce harvest and bell pepper harvest where we live. They just said so what they can find different jobs. Then they said it is those people who work in slaughterhouses and on factory farms they are the ones that are stuck in those jobs. Before they went vegan things were great between us. They were talking about getting part time jobs and we did a bunch of things together. Now when I do manage to get time off. I ask them if they want to do something they immediately research it to find out if it is vegan friendly.
He's plant-based, not vegan. Big diff. He couldnt answer the first question joey asked him and when he did, it wasnt about the animals. Plant-based, not vegan.
This distinction between plant-based diet and veganism really needs to be clarified. No such thing as an "ex-vegan," just someone self-absorbed who never bothered to connect the dots or empathize with the animals.
Bullshit I'm a 63 yr old plant based vegan I refuse to buy processed foods it's junk i would never eat animals and don't miss it ,I don't have pets and wouldn't take on the responsibility but I am a pigoneer which means I pay every mth to feed pigs saved from slaughter.If someone tells me they don't eat meat or fish I think thank god less suffering.
If vegans eat backyard eggs, we justify everyone eating backyard eggs. There aren't enough backyard hens to meet that demand, therefore factory farmed supply and demand is the industrial solution. Why can't people understand this? SMH
I confuse the heck out of people when I point out backyard chickens are factory farmed chickens. When they try to insist they aren't I ask them, "Do those chickens lay an egg a day?" "Yeah, of course." "Then they're factory farmed chickens. They've been selectively bred to lay an egg a day which is unnatural and very damaging to the chicken. It's like if a woman was heavy on her period 24/7 and like you would expect in that situation, they suffer from vitamin deficiencies like iron deficiencies and osteoporosis. Their eggs can also get stuck inside their body and they'll die. Chickens are only supposed to lay 3-5 eggs a month, one each day. Again, like a woman's period. Any chicken that lays an egg a day is factory farmed." You can practically hear the AOL sign on noise going on in their head trying to wrap their brain around it. lol. And that's not even bringing up how most people with backyard chickens will kill and eat them the moment they feel the chicken isn't giving them enough of what they want.
@@suicune2001 Yea, I think it's also important to point out all the male chicks which are killed at birth in order to breed and raise backyard chickens.
People claiming to be vegan when they are not, do not have empathy for all animals and when questioned they would be easily recognisable as not being vegan. But because they say they are, we too often trust them without question. I know thag I will never not be vegan and I did not call myself vegan until I knew I would not be consuming or using animals intentionally anymore.
You are right, but I distrust these plant-based dieters immediately, they always give themselves away by never mentioning the animals. To me stopping being vegan never once popped in my mind for one second all these years.
I had the same feeling on a sanctuary where I mentioned I would be discussing animal ag in a speech for one of my classes and one of the literal people working at that farmed animals sanctuary didn’t think I should take the opportunity! Just doesn’t make any sense to me. Keep in mind this same sanctuary had non vegan cookies out for eating. Just doesn’t make any sense.
it's probably harder for young people to stay vegan. they may become vegan just because it sounds cool, but when they realise the size of the commitment it entails, they get a bit overwhelmed. when you're older, you've had a lot more time to think about it. also, there is the extra incentive of health
This is interesting to me. I'll be going to Japan for three months. I'll be in big cities and also very rural areas. I've heard that Japan isn't the most vegan friendly place outside the large cities. However, I'm not too worried. I think the most difficult situation would be being in someone else's home and having to refuse some food they prepared for me (especially with language barrier). But, there are always options and planning goes a long way!
Yeah, humans have been cultivating fruit and vegetables all over the world for a long time. There’s always options. Even if you have to avoid dining out. 😊
I’d say maybe try and learn some vegan and food words in Japanese, so if your at someone’s house you can at least try and verbalise it. From what I’ve seen in videos, some noodles like sesame noodles, fresh fruit and veg, canned sweetcorn soup, stuff like that would be good. I wouldn’t worry either, I’m sure you’ll be fine. Have an amazing time! I think that’s on everyone’s holiday wish list.
@@rondarkman. I’ve been meatless for 20 years. The only reason people stop is because they’re weak willed. Meat is addictive. Have you ever heard someone say, “I don’t think I could stop eating meat.” I have plenty of times and it reminds me of the nonchalant attitude I had towards smoking when I smoked as a youth. Meat involves confinement and exposing animals to their companions suffering and slaughter. It can’t be enjoyable. We can live on plants.
@@rondarkman. in case you haven’t heard it, here’s a good slogan for you: “ANIMALS ARE NOT OURS TO EXPERIMENT ON, EAT, WEAR, USE FOR ENTERTAINMENT, OR ABUSE IN ANY OTHER WAY.” So no, they’re not here for you. The same way you’re not here for someone to mug or harass or hurt, right?
I love this guy's vibe, physically and mentally, I could see myself being friends with him, and I value his big-picture and outside-the-box thinking about environmental issues, (I do love all the places a conversation topic such as veganism could go) despite them not having a huge place in the vegan conversation, I also went the rout of Vegetarian for 10+ years and 2+ resent years vegan. I don't miss the dairy in the slightest, but I have 0 pressure on what I eat and ensure nothing is made for me or given to me, so I could potentially understand a scenario where opening the vegan conversation to a loved one (let's say one who doesn't get it or never remembers, but they're family) would be hard for some people, I'm a person who lets people know right away that I'm not going to fall for any type of peer pressure, but again, for some, it would be tempting to fall for any type of peer pressure, and I feel like this man isn't ready to stand up to everyone and anyone for his beliefs, I sympathize with that, although I don't agree with it in this context because I strongly believe animals and their bodily functions should not be products and should also not be seen for consumption aside from freely sharing earth together and bonding in this current development on earth and going forward,
I totally get it. I was vegetarian when I was 13 and then turned vegan at 18 but it was really like a whole new programming and then had a lot of shame speaking up to my friends and family and really standing my ground. Depression hit me too and I started eating meat and dairy and everything. It wasn’t until my dog died that it clicked and now I do a lot of research and learned about the dairy industry and am sick to my stomach thinking about the disgusting things we do to innocent child like animals! That is why my husband and I raise our children vegan too and do not make any exceptions for anything. If people try to give to give our children treats we always ask if it is vegan and even though it can turn the situation a little awkward when we turn it down (because they are normally not vegan) we still try to stay friendly and just nicely turn it down because there is nothing good about eating animal products (for us in our life situation). No excuses! Animals are not food and enough is enough of raping, abusing and murdering them like it is somehow excused. #veganforever #veganforjazzy
I feel like we need to make these things lifestyles not trends. Also nutritionally and psychologically I feel like no one should go vegan as a teenager. It may be controversial to say it, but adapting your body to a big change when it’s already going through so many changes, may cause more problems. IMO. I think it must be easier to have been vegan since birth. But I haven’t done research into that.
I disagree. A plant based diet is appropriate for all ages. Milk is often a cause of acne. I sure wish I had known this when I was a teenager. Maybe I would have had less ridicule and taken fewer antibiotics.
@@donolonisa5787 Are you still defending rape and murder (because we'll never stop them), stoning women to death (because it's legal) and eating your young/licking your ass (because animals do it)? Pretty sad.
You can't be a part time vegan just like you can't be part time dead, a bit pregnant, mostly human but from time to time a rock, etc. Plant based eating is one thing, veganism another (half vegan or part time vegan doesn't exist).
Yeah, the title should NOT say "quit veganism" -- Joey should change it to "quit a plant-based diet," the two different lifestyles really need to stop being conflated and confused as interchangeable and the same.
I think all morality ultimately does have an egotistic drive to it; I think his point was not that he only does things that are ego-driven. He was making a subtle point that Joey didn't pick up on. Notice when Joey asks about animal suffering and rights, he goes "yeah that's the rationalistic reason". What he was saying was that there are rational reasons not to exploit animals, and to believe animals have rights, but when it comes to people actually ACTING on those beliefs, they don't do so for rational reasons but rather for ego-driven reasons. The reason why I think this was the point he was making was that he goes on to say "people don't change for rationalistic reasons". This is very true; most people change their minds or actions for emotional or social pressure-related reasons (such as being confronted with imagery of slaughter or having a lot of friends and family go vegan), which is ego-driven, and THEN the rationalisation starts. The same thing is seen in religious converts; often they first get an emotional shock or exposure, like going to a religious community and being overwhelmed by a kindness or generosity, they then accept the religion, THEN they start studying the theology and rationalisations for believing in God and scripture or whatever. This is the point the guy in the video was making. He accepts the rational reasons for veganism - he doesn't deny it - but he also realises that rationality isn't what drives morality, but ego (with rational consolidation happening post-hoc). Unfortunately, a lot of the commenters and Joey seem to have missed this subtle point. Dude was just being honest and pointing out how humans actually undergo moral paradigm shifts:( As for whether he is plant based or vegan, that depends on how you define it; if accepting the principles of veganism is enough, then he is vegan. If you have to be vegan 100% of the time, then he is not vegan. He would also not be plant-based because that implies a purely dietary change without underlying moral beliefs, but this guy clearly buys the moral arguments for veganism. This is not trying to excuse the idea of vegan "holidays", which is still unethical, but I am just trying to get people to see what this guy was actually talking about.
Plant based is so much harder psychologically. You basically starve the body, it also takes a mental strain. The body can literally only do plant based for so long. But it can do veganism for a human life time. He looks like a student, so he may of done it to join a movement, and now sick and tired of doing it. Also not sure what nutrients in the form of pills he might or might not take. Just shows everyone that if your going vegan, research and do it properly from the start.
Joey, the title should NOT say "quit veganism," but "quit a plant-based diet." The two really need to stop being conflated and confused as interchangeable and the same. There is no such thing as an "ex-vegan," and it's all about the animals, not just what you eat.
@@rondarkman. Hey Boomer Steve! Now I know critical thinking skills and understanding things gets harder as you age (that's DEFINITELY not what she said), but veganism is an ethical stance where we reduce the harm to animals as far as possible and practical. Not only do we not eat animal products but we don't wear their skin or products on our bodies or pay for it on our furniture. A plant-based diet is part of a vegan lifestyle. Get it now? I know that cholesterol is gumming up the works - just let me know if you need it explained another way, Hun.
This was interesting, being vegan for 8+ years now I know it can be hard never like what he was saying but it can be mentally straining at times I just look at an animal and remember how amazing they are and why we do it.
I find it hard to separate all my values and beliefs. Veganism isn't a standalone issue but part of the whole. Hard to understand why someone supporting animal rights, human rights, LGBTQ+ rights, workers rights, socialism/communism, climate measures etc. wouldn't support all the others. (Not directed at Joey or the interviewee as I didn't get those kind of vibes from this vid)
The iPhone factory example represents global capitalism in general. It’s not about boycotting one particular iPhone factory, but buying those things does cause suffering and death. It’s just harder to talk about it in the context of veganism because it’s obvious that you can buy vegetables instead of nest to save animals, but buying anything at all under capitalism has a good chance of harming humans. There’s no simple swap like there is with vegan vs. omni. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter, but Joey is used to talking about veganism and so he’s got a bit of a mental block here. If you can cause a death more directly or less directly, both deaths are equally wrong for the victim, but the more direct killing is worse for the perpetrator. As in the killer is more guilty if they kill more directly, but the actual effect of their actions is the same. If you’re the one who’s dying, you don’t care if you were killed directly or indirectly, you just want to survive!
I think if you don't eat animals and dairy you should stick to that ALWAYS no matter who offers you a cheese sandwich Veganism is COMPASSION FOR ALL ANIMALS
I agree. By accepting that cheese sandwich you cannot be opposed to eating cheese in the eyes of those who saw you eating it and you are bound to always accept animal products offered to you at risk of causing offence. Everyone I know is non vegan and I have got used to them rolling their eyes or gently mocking me for strictly applying my principles but I am also aware that they would almost certainly view any equivocation on my part as an abandonment of the principle. This man would think that taking such a stance is difficult but once you understand that every animal product necessarily involves a victim it isn’t hard at all.
Me… I’ve eaten meat nearly every day for my entire life. Used to laugh in the face of vegans… But… the past couple of months I’ve had a flash of disgust when I see slabs of meat going on forever in supermarkets. I’m noticing I’m throwing away more meat (which makes it even worse) and your videos have done it for me. I’m making the switch. Simple as that. Thank you. That’s all I have to say.
You are awesome. ❤ Good luck on this new stage in your life. Make sure to take B12 and note that switching generally means a lot more fiber than you currently eat so drink more water, consider digestive enzymes, and know that your body will adjust in a few weeks.
Also, get used to spending more money, having a big inconvenience in the calorie to food ratio, being ostracized from most of society, and your newfound smug attitude. Now you're a Happeh Healtheh Vegunnn!
Quite a bit of hate in the comments here. To instantly call this person not vegan is super cringe, and to play the "just plant based" card is even more embarassing. Clearly this person bases their choices on moral considerations, which is what veganism is about. They actually raise some good points and are honest and open enough to admit their moral failings. Some people over here like to scold as a kneejerk reaction when language deviates from the orthodox vegan path, almost as if they themselves are so insecure that if they allow ANY "dissident" thought in their mind they themselves will lose their way. We live in a carnist as fuck society, cut people that are clearly on our (human & nonhuman) side some slack. I think they also made a good point re: transportation and deaths. Joey makes the case that taking a plane does not violate anyone's rights, but what if we consider having good overall health or having clean air a right? (these can also be formulated in a negative way of course). Then by funding the plane flight you directly subsidize the violations of those rights of those affected. The above case, like many cases raised in this video, is not that clear cut as we would like it to be. Most vegans can and should definitely do better with regards to their consumption of products that concern animal suffering. The phone example is an often raised one, and usually dismissed with the argument that we don't know if boycotting has a positive impact. But there are actual alternatives (at least Fairphone, idk about others), and the case is easily made that you have a better impact by opting for those. tl;dr any vegan who has a different phone to a Fairphone should keep their criticism on this video/person to themselves
He seems to be saying that he thinks not eating meat and dairy is a form of suffering and or a loss for him; and his concern is how moral he should be to be a decent memeber of his community. How much can he get away with and still be a "moral" person.
I would ask him then how and where else is he ready to test his morals? Suffering from not getting sex for a week? Maybe it's time to start thinking about r*pe? Suffering from low income? Maybe he could rob someone. When it comes to violating rights and harming another living being, there can't be question about whether you can exploit something, because it would make you feel better. It's wrong and completely unnecessary and no one goes through life without any suffering.
@@Bl4ckheart Good examples. I would just say that I do not "suffer" from not eating the flesh or secretions of animals. The idea of eating animals is horrific to me. I am trying to understand how HE is thinking. His thought process reminds me of someone raised in a religion, like Catholisism, and was taught to see moral decisions as a sacrifice. I don't know if I am explaining myself well.
@@jean6453 I haven't watched the full video, so I don't know what points the guy has made, but anyway, I agree with you on thinking about eating animals is simply just no, I don't see them as food at all. But the thing is, the guy or whoever you might have conversation with, can simply say "well, I don't think the same, I actually crave for some meat, I've been avoiding it because morals, but now I figured I'm suffering from not having it". That's why I would form my reply around other cases of "suffering", because if he claims that's suffering (having a strong appetite for meat for example), then anyone can easily say they have a strong appetite for sex or money or power and so they could come up with very questionable solutions to satisfy those needs.
I believe he was psychologically exhausted, I believe he wanted to stop playing the "I can be perfect game." I think he is beginning to feel emotionally disconnected from his loved ones. I think this has to be talked about deeply in Vegan to Vegan conversations. I consider myself Vegan for 7 years by now. I buy cheese and eggs for my girlfriend, once a year I eat a not vegan traditional bread in my country which contains milk and eggs ("pan de muerto") I don't buy it, I just participate in the celebration and I eat the bread when offered obviously i like the bread. Does that make me not vegan??? Well, you decide for yourself. It is something I just do.
I’m vegan, and love Joey. However, this was the Joey’s best. But it was a very difficult conversation for sure. I like that Joey remained patient and calm. Tried to understand and come up with the best answer. For example: Less evil option is to give them a low income countries give a job. Then others can say, “less evil option is to give them a life even if we take it away later.” Many other point by Joey didn’t feel right.
Economics get complicated when you have to consider the political dimension. Often those sweatshop jobs are only good options likely due to neo-colonialism. Would Dominican Republic have sweatshops if the US military didn’t support the coup against the democratically elected president Juan Bosch? Am I supporting/rewarding the primarily foreign American investors owned businesses in DR by purchasing products from those workshops? Veganism is still the correct approach regardless of all this, but I’m not sure Joey should be so ambivalent about the current capitalist world order.
This guy was plant-based not vegan. He doesn't think like a vegan or even act like one. He's more vegetarian and will probably go there because it's easier.
I really can’t understand why there are “vegans” and “vegetarians” who want so badly to find some kind of loophole to consume animal products when they supposedly understand animal exploitation and speciesism. How can you understand the ethical implications of it and still see these “products” as food??? When I went vegan, animal “products” were no longer food?
(And I am aware that vegetarians don’t fully understand the ethical implications/ don’t want to see the truth… I’m including vegetarians in this statement who want to find some kind of loophole to consume animal bodies or something/ whatever they usually avoid for “ethics”)
Vegetarians can exist purely from ignorance. These are people who are bothered at the thought of eating flesh, but don't realize how exploitative and cruel the entire animal industry is.
I realize I don't know you Joey. But can't help but LOVE you for the person you are. You are an all around inspiration ✨️ Thank you! Animal Guardian here for 26 years now and will be forever. 💚🌱🤜🤛
When I was vegetarian, I was doing it for the animals but I hadn't made the connection fully. When I was drunk, I would eat meat. When I went vegan, it was a whole emotional experience. I saw the suffering and I was majorly depressed by it. Now I do not see meat as food at all, and my nightmares consist of me suddenly changing and eating meat. Like that is a nightmare scenario because it disgusts me so much. Even when it's inconvenient, even when I feel left out, even when there are no good options on the menu. I think this guy hasn't made the connection fully.
@@rondarkman. okay, so you have an entire UA-cam account presumably to troll vegans. That's a lot of effort. You must care a lot about this in some warped way to put so much of your time into it. When you see a vegan video like this, what do you feel?
It's crazy that the very first words out of his mouth weren't, "I think veganism is about not causing unnecessary harm to sentient beings. I don't think that animals should suffer because of my fleeting desires." or something along this nature. He doesn't seem to really understand what veganism actually is which is his primary problem. He has no real objective or foundational underpinning. No wonder he thinks he can vacillate at will. 😞
Smart dude, attentive listener and honest interlocutor, so refreshing🤩 He shows how emotions can get the better of us and illustrates the value of strengthening ones mental fortitude to enable a more ethical society and world. Plant🥦 strong💪 in body, Vegan in mind 🧠/spirit.
The biggest similarity between the damage done buying an iPhone vs eating a burger is that they are both done off-screen and you don't see it. Like, they are both just presented as different things to purchase, in our society. This makes them _seem_ like they should be similar wrongs, but the reality is still that a being is definitively and an order-of-magnitude being horrifically harmed directly in the burger scenario. If both supply chains could be end-to-end transparently seen when you see them in the store, still the burger would come out way worse morally. (And to illustrate this, you can bring it to dogs- of course a dog burger is seen as completely worse than our electronics sourcing issues).
I understand where he is coming from. Majority of vegans quit because society just isnt supportive. 😢 At the end of the day, for me, I think of all the baby animals I've personally seen, in those awful conditions. I could never support such cruelty.
@@KsandrPannagree. It's hard to have family and friends exclude you or act weird around you. It is definitely like leaving a cult. I have left a cult twice. Once when I left Mormonism and again when I became vegan. Same experience.
This video and the Alex/Peter Singer response video have got me pondering moral philosophy issues. Living in the modern world is so very complicated, as we live in a highly globalised economy so the results of our economic choices can be wide reaching to people, ecosystems and animals all across the world. Many debates on veganism revolve around the utilitarian (maximising wellbeing, minimising suffering) vs Rights-based. The Rights based moral perspective says "this action contravenes this individual's rights therefore it is always wrong" but has the disadvantage that it's not always easy to decide what rights individuals are entitled to, it is open to debate because you cannot see or experience 'Rights', they are ideas. Whereas the utilitarian moral perspective has the advantage that we directly experience suffering - we observe other animals and through out faculties of empathise with them, see that they suffering too, and seek to end their suffering. But it has the disadvantage that it's possible to think up scenarios of people doing obviously wrong things, for the sake of "maximising wellbeing for the many." Perhaps there is no perfect moral philosophy, we just have to do the best we can. Thought experiment: Imagine there is an all-knowing utilitarian calculator that could give instructions on what to do in every action. It knows the results of every single action, taking into account every single consequence of your actions. What would it recommend to do, and to avoid doing? What would life look like if we all followed it's instructions? So what would an ethical world look like, taking into account every aspect of our economy? Food: Vegan. This is one of the easiest lifestyle choices to implement for most people today. Resulting in the maximum reduction of suffering to animals, there would be a massive environmental improvement with the ocean's healing, mass rewilding, vastly reducing carbon emissions. In this world plant and mushroom farmers and workers would be paid fairly. Some of the ex-animal farmers would help with the conservation work and rewilding. Clothing: Sustainable (what materials are the best? how many clothes are too many?) genuinely fair trade. Transport: Designing cities so that people can get around by public transport, walking and cycling as easily as possible. There is a debate around ecars and other such things because of the environmental damage or mining for precious mineral and metals for electronics and batteries. Shelter/building materials: Sustainable. Small environmental impact e.g. not taking lumber from rainforests Electronics: Again, it's easy to forget the terrible working conditions of people mining for the materials we need for electronics, and the people on the assembly lines. They need to be given the best working conditions possible not treated like slaves. Apple and other electronics Entertainment: Personal choices to avoid forms of entertainment that exploit humans and animals. I'm a plant based eater but not vegan. I'd like to go full vegan in the future, will buy vegan shoes next time I buy shoes.
About the causal chain thing - it's not just about whether there "exists" a causal chain. It also matters whether we *can* even know about it. Presumably a butterfly flapping it wings "can" cause a hurricane on the other side of the world which wouldn't have happened otherwise. But the only way we could know this is to model the atmosphere at the atomic level (which is impossible given the current technological limitations). There might be more to a rights-based view than this, but I think this definitely supports a rights-based approach; if we view ourselves as individuals who are part of larger systems, you can't implement a rigid policy like "maximize utility" at the individual level and expect the same "goal" to propagate up to the system-level. We lack the necessary knowledge as individuals to "maximize utility" at the system-level given that society is a complex/chaotic system. Instead, it seems that policies like "don't violate a set of basic rights of others" may be more likely to result in a higher utility overall because this approach addresses the immediate causes of suffering, which we can observe and understand as individuals. This policy doesn't depend on the actions and beliefs of those around you. If I have a belief that killing an animal in a public square will make people feel bad enough to go vegan, I won't do it because, regardless of the possible downstream consequences, I know that this action WILL harm (and violate the rights of) the animal who is killed. From a strict utilitarian perspective this decision becomes intractably complex - whatever I decide may have enormous consequences with regard to utility, but it seems that (in this view) I'm just as likely, given the limitations of my knowledge, to choose the option that eventually causes great harm as I am to choose the option that eventually causes great benefit.
And also, the issues that do function at the system level (things like systemic racism, wealth disparity, etc.) must be addressed at the system level. In these cases, individuals usually cannot predict exactly how their actions will propagate up to the system level, but we can understand how institutions and government policies can impact these dynamics. Of course this is the case, but it seems that there is a necessary condition at the individual level for these system-level approaches to even have a chance of being effective. You can't hope to eliminate systems that perpetuate racism at the system level if explicit racism is rampant at the individual level.
Joey what’s your opinion on the pet food industry? Talk to us about what you’d like to see adapted in the industry. I also am a pet owner. I have a cat who needs fish and meat in her diet. What do you think could replace traditional methods? I’d love your thoughts and opinions. Thanks again for what you do. Stay blessed
There are several types of vegan cat food on the market. Mic the Vegan recently did an episode on a systematic review of pet food studies. Interesting stuff.
@@Max.Resilience How so? If the multitude of studies are showing no statistical difference then how do you figure? Did you know ALL commercial dog/cat food has added synthetic aminos to it? The slaughterhouse floor scraps don't have enough nutritional value as is. Did you even look into it? Or are you just taking the typical biased carnist stance?
The underpinning beneath everything is that there is no justifiable reason to needlessly take a sentient life, it’s destructive and brings such negative energy that ricochets. One thing i still battle with (open to viewers to reply to this) is the market of secondhand leather goods, mostly focusing on vintage designer furniture pieces as they are largely all leather and whilst it doesn’t create a market to use animals as you can’t produce a new ‘vintage’ piece from the 1960s but it does normalise using flesh as a product. As it’s crazy to throw away things like this that are already produced but … tell me your thoughts.
This is why I started my Veganism Weekly Reminder every Friday. For individuals just like this. Veganism is not a diet nor is it about the environment. This person is part time plant based at best so he and everyone else needs to stop using the word vegan. Veganism is an ethical stance one takes that they are against animal oppression and violence for not only food but for clothing, entertainment, animal testing, hunting, fishing, etc. It's not something you turn on and off. Do you turn on and off being racist? Abusing children? No! These plant based for the environment individuals are obliterating this movement and they need to get away from veganism and Animal Liberation and take their arrogance and selfishness elsewhere. My mother could be dying and if she offered me a sandwich with someone's stolen secretions and I would tell her no in a heart beat.
Insufficiently funding public services like the NHS, child protective services, the fire department, or the police can indirectly lead to suffering. That’s not a contentious position. It’s still not a good reason to abandon veganism, but let’s not pretend that we currently live in an anarchist society. If you believe in public services as a force for good, it logically follows that not paying suffer taxes is morally bad. If you don’t trust your public services are a force for good, then the opposite is true.
@@xenoblad the premise is actually in simple terms, accidentally and indirectly causing someones death far down the chain of events compared to paying for someone to die to wear their skin. One is not considering or intending at all for any death and the other is intentionally asking for someone to die. it's comparing an accident to murder. Worlds apart.
@@80slimshadys We can acknowledge the difference while accepting the similarity in consequences. If we have knowledge of our indirect harm, and we care about the consequences, then there is some argument that there is a moral consideration to be had. For example, if we had the technology to viably grow crops in a vertical fashion that would eliminate the deaths of field pests, there would be a case to be made that eating crops from traditional farms would be less vegan then buying from a vertical farm assuming both options are equally accessible and affordable. Murder is worse then manslaughter, but it's still preferable to take actions to reduce both.
@@xenoblad I think that's disanalogous. We can't recognise the indirect harm in taxes because there is no way to account for any death you caused and is a "maybe" situation whereas buying animal products is not. It's not a certainty any emergency service will be needed and that your non-involvement was the cause of any death but with animal products there is accountability because you are actually holding someone that died because of your involvement. I also have a contention with the vertical farming being "more vegan" than conventional. For that to be the case there would have to be rights violations occuring and protection of property does not entail that. Protection of property is not exploitation and the definition of vegansim is to avoid exploitation, not death. It might be the better option but it doesn't make you more vegan because conventional farming isn't breaking vegansim in any way.
Although I disagree with the way he goes about it, I think he raises some important points. I’ve been trying to be more conscientious of my consumption of products. I guess that’s pretty much what veganism is. What’s great about veganism is that it’s pretty easy way to know that what you’re buying is not causing unnecessary suffering of animals since their rights aren’t being exploited. However, the exploitation of human rights in the global south and in developing countries is also abhorrent, and so much of our lifestyle is built upon that exploitation. Not to say that it is equivalent to the animal suffering/rights violations but it is still undeniably significant. That being said, I wouldn’t use that to justify an annual 3 month break or flexitarian kind of thing, but instead I would argue for complete minimisation of suffering/exploitation across the board, which includes avoiding the suffering of animals AND humans in the production of our products and lifestyles. Correct me if I’m wrong, but to my knowledge it seems more difficult to trace the human exploitation in products.
Not a very good argument and lacking in logic. What about the millions of people who are totally capable of killing and eating animals themselves? What about tribal people or farmers who have no problem butchering animals?
@@julioandresgomez3201 Most vegans that I've met try to tell other people what they must do as far as eating animals. You are the first vegan I've encountered that didn't care what other people do. I guess you dropped out of the cult.
WOW. I went Vegan less than a year ago Thanks to Earthling Ed and then found Joey, and I am shocked, that there are Vegan who justify straying again 😱😬 like, wtf ? you can't even feign ignorance or claim you need protein, or Vegan food isn't tasty az hell. this is unbelievable!?!
With the donut: Earthling Ed has a great way of answering these sorts of moments of weakness. Instead of saying I am vegan now. Say I am a vegan for this item, this meal, this day, this week etc. It's the same outcome but it's a less daunting perspective. A more empowering frame on why you ought to abstain. One should also remember to commend themselves internally for their continued abstinence as it builds a positive reinforcement with doing the right thing. With choosing long term gratification over hedonism.
There's a very big difference in direct and indirect actions, for example, breathing releases CO2 and that could cause respiratory diseases in people and kill them, but that doesn't mean that you can stroll up to someone and stab them. Indirect causes is a very slippery slope.
@@pacmanmcgavin7034 You're a clown. Are you sad and lonely or something? You're an old war vet right? Why do you spend your time doing this immature shit? What did you actually get out of saying that? We clearly trigger you.
this guy is very intelligent his intentions are pure but he got confused I think he was struggling with himself and this discussion helped understand animal rights better what he said about other things we practice in that hurt animals or humans indirectly is very true we should avoid polluting and supporting industries which violet human rights
@plurabelle5 Well, I agree it the easiest thing, once you've made the connection that behind every single animal product there's a suffering individual. Although I think any non-vegan would react defensively if you told them "they are still asleep." ^^ I guess that also applies to any other topic where you want to persuade someone to get to a certain realization. 🥶
I wonder if he has an eating disorder or maybe it’s part of mental health. Connected to depression and his emotions mixed with the attachment to foods!?
I wouldn't have done nearly as well as you, but having the gift of hindsight, these are the points I'd want to bring up to him: 1.) Red herrings don't have rights. 2.) No perfect consumption under capitalism isn't a coherent excuse to let ourselves not do the best we can. 3.) What evidence does he have that living 3 months "off" 9 months on is any easier than being consistently on? This would be a great chance for you to bring up addiction if you chose to, something you surely know a lot more about than him.
This guy reminded me of myself some years back. I never considered not being vegan but I worried about everything unnecessary I consumed being immoral as it caused harm to a human or non-human somewhere. I worried about buying a paperback on veganism because of the destruction of animal habitat in the pulp and paper industries. I wondered for weeks if a healthy salad with 10 ingredients from a variety of countries was morally worse than a big bowl of oily pasta due to environmental concerns and the likelihood of more animals being killed on the roads by transport trucks. I went down a rabbit hole and was overwhelmed by the perceived necessity of having to live a puritanical life to be morally consistent. I didn't feel I could criticize someone for unnecessarily eating animals when I bought soda in plastic bottles everyday which is also unnecessary and harmful. While my line in the sand was veganism I wasn't sure I could be up on my soap box when I consumed so much and drove short distances. Eventually I clung to the notion that perfection is the enemy of good to happily live life with all it's privileges and yummy vegan junk food. I hope this chap relaxes a bit and decides that veganism is right for him afterall.
A company exploiting workers to manufacture a product that is recognized as morally neutral, like a phone, doesn't make the product immoral. The fault lies with the company. One could use the product and protest the company's immoral actions. Animal farming, on the other hand, is recognized as an immoral practice whichs makes an immortal product. So the use of said product is also immoral.
I've was vegetarian intermittent vegan for 3 years. Eating clean whole foods, I began having trouble with getting more and more cavities and food sensitivities. ( I did a blood test to try and adress deficiencies). After starting to eat meat I just feel much better physically but morally a failure.
The I phone argument has actually less to do with the I phone. It’s a socio economical problem. The problem is much wider and deeper than just the factory
Just because there are injustices somewhere does not justify injustices elsewhere. That is all. All these mental calisthenics to equate iphones and environmental pollution and labor law violations with violations of animal rights are just an exercise in pretzel logic.
That's based around the assumption that all vegans who abstain from eating and using animal products, have thoroughly thought through the position, in all ways imaginable. I doubt that's true at all.
@@JB.zero.zero.1 If you question being vegan, or can be on/off about it, you were never vegan to begin with, just plant-based. You don't get to call yourself Vegan if you dont belive you can "stick" with it for the rest of your life. Its not a diet, its not a fad, its not a facebook trend, its morals & ethics, and those dont run out.
Bernard Williams came up in this very interesting conversation. I’ve noticed a lot of talk recently about the psychological motivations for making moral choices. Here it seemed like the moral case for Veganism is ironclad, maybe however, people need emotional motivations to be moral
That guy is loyal to his emotions not to the animals he has no principles compared to Joey Carbstrong speaker and Tarrion Partridge and camera crew team
@7:25 this guy is reasoning deeper than the vegan doctrine, to a point ole uncle joeski didnt even understand the indirect influences of choices, that can also cause harm. I love when vegans assume by default that bc of the doctrines they adhere to, theyre also the most considerate, conscious and intelligent.
@@donolonisa5787 Are you still defending rape and murder (because we'll never stop them), stoning women to death (because it's legal) and eating your young/licking your ass (because animals do it)? Pretty sad.
@@rondarkman. Look at you Boomer Steve! Great job making friends. I'm sorry you're so lonely - I hope you can confide in Donolo. I know he's having ED issues as well.
I will say, in the first part he makes total sense. What he was saying is that if a person kills another one it caused 1 death, but an oil spillage could cause millions. I agree that what matters is who causes more deaths, but we can't believe the murderer is worse by default. Also, climatic events linked to human activity cause millions of deaths every year, so by following the "number of deaths" principle, partecipating in the transport industry is worse than a murder. I believe that's what he was trying to say and I don't think there's a satisfactory answer from a veganism perspective (unfortunately, I'm vegan too lol).
What are these 'exotic' cases wherein a person needs something from an animal's body? I keep hearing the various phrases, but I've never heard anyone follow-up with it. More verbal-fictions? Probably.
I'm six minutes in, everything he is saying is about HIM, 'how virtuous should *I* have to be?' - who's counting your virtue points? It's not about how you come across to other human beings mate. I'm interested to see how this goes but so far it seems that he thinks that he is the victim...
I'm fifteen minutes through now, I'm agreeing with him now (obviously not about the non vegan bit), I hate capitalism as much as him. What I do as a 'protest', is to buy a phone and then use it until I literally can't anymore. Quite a few of my clothes are over ten years old, and many bought second hand. I wear them until I literally can't anymore. Just don't participate in throw away culture! I think now that he is not really serious about not being vegan, he just wants an opportunity to talk about how wrong capitalism is.
@@bengilkes7676 I think thats it really. I went into an online socratic dialog for a few days now. In a rant about how "consumer choices don't matter and there is plenty of data about it, go read any economics book kiddo, there must be something for dummies" I answer asking about dog fighting and child p^rn and wether or not should we neither judge those consumers? The guy just started rambling about me being a troll.😒people just want to be right. At the end of the day boicotting works ¿have you seen the UK dairys manifestations?
That guy lost before he even started… you can’t beat vegans , they are right no matter what the outcome. Instead of distracting yourself with fruitless arguments , vote against them, educate non vegans about actual improvements in animal agriculture and stability with a sustainable food supply
@@bobhill4364 Who would have ever guessed when you eat nothing but lettuce or juice your health would fall apart? Ever notice how they jump from one extreme to another? They eat the SAD diet, then fast for 40 days, then eat nothing but raw, then eat nothing but corpses, then drink their own pee, and then cry to everyone online how they just somehow can't get their health under control? Funny how that works out.
In a way this is similar to saying an ex-Christian was never a Christian. A person can change their mind overtime. I know you don't like to hear this, but it's true. We have to be very careful with others when levelling this accusation at them. This is a defence we use to firm up our own convictions.
@@bobhill4364 This "so many" is something you pulled out of your ass and you know it. Why don't people like you with this logic ever talk about "so many" omnivores who get sick. Oh right, they never get sick because of food, right? It must be all other stuff that doesn't affect vegans. Also, many fake vegans will use health as an excuse to go back, because they know they can't argue moral standpoint.
What do you think about this discussion? Leave your thoughts down below.
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👋 The amount of copium and ridiculous analogies is mind numbing
Joey you have such enormous patience!! His analogies are an embarrassment to the human race!!! 😅😂 🙄
He's NOT Vegan if he's thinking of quitting he's plant based.
Vegans don't turn their backs on the animals they are fighting for.
Even vegans are realizing that veganizm is not the way to go. Vegans try to this whole moral bs and its no longer holding up to a lot of vegans. Supposedly about 80% of peole who go vegan or vegetarian go back to eating meat eventually.
We are animals in a stand ourselves. So us are plant eternal and some of love that taste of a dead animal. This is natural.
Maybe he is hooked on the casomorphin in dairy. Precision fermentation dairy products from a company called "Perfect Day" are already on sale here in the USA. I don't know about the UK. One of their products is "Brave Robot" brand ice cream, and I hear they make a cream cheese product.
I have sympathy for people in his position. Something hasn't clicked yet so he doesn't fully see how wrong it is to harm animals. I was in that position for years, where I wanted to be vegan but will power alone wasn't enough to stop the behaviour permanently. Then one day it suddenly clicked and there was no struggle at all in avoiding all products derived from animals.
So was there any specific event or sth. that made you personally "click?"
@shiv_ring no, I think it was just thinking about the subject and really considering the suffering repeatedly that did it. I think most often it's an accumulation rather than one event.
I was vegan off and on for the first 4 years, then permanently vegan for the last 20. It takes time for many to fully transition.
@@shiv_ring There was for me, though it was mostly gradual .. I'd always hated eating red meat, and quit in high school, and wanted to be vegetarian then, in college I started educating myself about animal farming in general - eggs, dairy, and poultry became easy to avoid after watching all the documentaries and such, and the last thing to go was fish. I just didn't get it, they seemed abundant, less complex socially and psychologically, they were a lean protein source, omegas etc .. but days before I was committed to quitting all animal products (New Years resolution 2013), I saw someone pulling small a net of 4 or 5 fish up on a dock, and that was it for me. Watching the way they writhed and struggled as they were chucked into a bucket was brutal for me. And this is what we consider the most ethical way to harvest them - small scale fishing! More than ten years later, I'm alive, well, and SO grateful my path led me to a compassionate lifestyle, including abstaining from sweat shop made clothing/fast fashion, and other unethically produced goods, as much as possible.
One thing that helps with breaking addictions is becoming aware that the will of man is feeble, and the will of God is infinite. God is with us. Ask, and you shall receive. Much love.
As a vegan, obviously I disagree with a lot of his points, but I really liked how he approached this debate with an open mind; too often, debate turns into trying to "own" the other person instead of a learning opportunity, but this guy laid out his points, admitted when he was unsure or wrong, while still asserting his beliefs and the rationale behind it, even if I disagree with those beliefs.
I've been vegan for almost two years now in Argentina. A large part of our culture surrounds animal abuse: asados, jineteadas, etc. And almost all of our income comes from exportation of animal corpses. Aaand we are a third world country: basically, we earn less, and things are more expensive. Even with everything, I had never ever once thought to stop being vegan, it's easy and affordable. But most importantly, it is kind and beautiful. If I can be vegan here, most people can, there is no excuse.
@@rondarkman. Hey Boomer Steve. Just checking in. How are you feeling after your last bout of confusion. Anything I can help you with?
If you be Vegan there, I can be a BEHEMOTH CARNIST here with Pork chops 🍖🥩🥩🍖🥩🍖 and chicken drumsticks 🍗🍗🐓🐔🍗🍗🐓on the menu
@@rondarkman. My uncle has one hanging in his living room. You're not as shocking as you think you are. You do realize the majority of us were carnist before going vegan, right? I ate flesh and secretions for 35 years. Again, you guys will be the last generation so I'm not really worried about it. Go out in nature while you still can!
@@rondarkman. Now, I know you're old enough to have heard of a dictionary - why don't you go leaf that little guy open. You do remember the alphabet, right?
@AnnoyingButMorallyConsistent these ppl r such a joke 😂 imagine being so internally guilty that ur a meat eater who watches vegan videos and tries to troll vegan comments to feel better about ur own decisions. It's blatant to everyone else but them and it's like watching a child obviously lie about something.
Watching this has made me realize that it's much easier to be vegan than to justify not being vegan.
Say's a Herbivore 😉
@@donolonisa5787 Says someone who at the age of 53 ran out of lame excuses to continue exploiting animals unnecessarily.
@@roku3216 So do you think it's easy to Convert 8 billion Carnist living worldwide into Shitty 💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩 Vegan's
@@rondarkman. Oh Boomer Steve, it's only a matter of time until you can no longer do these things. The younger generations will make sure your legacy doesn't continue.
@@annoyingbutmorallyconsistent Oh wow, I kinda wish you posted their comment in your reply because this is the first time I've seen them delete a comment :3
I have been an ethical vegan for over 14 years and I was a massive carnivore prior, I am and was an animal lover and watched Earthlings I forced myself to watch the entire documentary, once it was done I said to myself, "looks like you have a big decision, you are either NOW an ethical vegan OR you are a HYPOCRITE" I chose veganism, the first 6 months were hell, since I did not care for veggies or fruit I loved steaks, and burger with fries! But it was an ethical choice so I lived on potatoes, Fritos, Oreos, for a long time until one day around the 4th month I finally felt that shift in my taste buds then it was pretty easy from then on.
This guy is looking for an excuse to make exceptions to his veganism, once he does cross that line he is now on a diet, and ALL diets fail!
I got a free vegan magazine and it changed my life. Sounds like the weirdest thing, but it came with wall posters and from then on I thought “I no longer want to eat dead skin”. The magazine had this beautiful baby pig on the front with long eye lashes and it just reminded me of a child with its own individual personality.
The next day I woke up and had oats for breakfast and thought “no animals died for me to eat”. It made me smile.
@@rondarkman. Oh Boomer Steve, I already explained to you that as you age, you may be more confused.
@@rondarkman. People hate animal abusers. Even prisoners will get beaten up by other prisoners if they are known to abuse animals or children. The fact that you are proud to say you abuse animals, speaks volumes about you. You're blocked. As I would block anyone who admitted to abusing children also. Animals are defenseless. So you're not all that by hurting those that are weaker. I mean anyone can hurt the weak lol. Then you come on a vegan comment to gush about how cruel you are. Come on man. You can't be like this in the real world. You'd get beat up every day. You're a nameless troll. A big man wannabe. A looser. This is the only way you know that you can get some attention. I feel sorry for you.
Feels a lot like my own switch. I needed to align my actions with my values. Watching Dominion helped push me over the line.
@@rondarkman.this is so funny. This just reminds me of a response I used to see a lot on some videos. “I’ll eat double or triple the amount of meat I would just bc you’re vegan. So your effort is useless”. Idk man. Seems like you gotta get a life before you die lmfao
“Psychically speaking, it’s too much to bare” . Self control is too big of a responsibility for the average consumer.
@plurabelle5 very good point
What he really has an issue with is the guilt he feels after lapses in self control violate the ethical values he claims to uphold. He won't fully commit because he's afraid of failing, but his lack of conviction is what's leading to these lapses he's so ashamed of. Dude needs to stop worrying about what's out of his control and take accountability for his choices where he can
@@racheldeschenes3804 yep
he wanted for Joey to say "oh
yeah it's forgivable" when I am
shocked any "Vegan" can ever
"lapse". like what The hell. go
watch Dominion again. if you
even THINK about "lapsing" I
prescribe you watch Earthlings
over and over, and Dominion !!
I think a lot of people are in denial about the harm they cause themselves when they give up on their moral principles. So when we talk about veganism as a burden, a lot of times that’s being done without weighing it against the harm we cause ourselves when we feel unprincipled. There’s a reason why people who have strong principles live satisfactory lives while unprincipled people just kind of aimlessly walk around chasing momentary pleasure through: sex, drugs, attention, social validation, food, comfort, and hoarding wealth, which never truly leads them to peaceful satisfaction. Constantly looking for a loophole in animal rights is similar to the way crooks try to find ways to commit crimes that district attorneys just can’t fully prosecute them for. It’s a scummy way of living one’s life and erodes your dignity.
Very well put.
Exactly, he thinks he can let himself off the moral hook and be free from self judgement by "going on holiday" from veganism, when the reality is that his conflict is guilt over not having the conviction to consistently act on his moral intuitions.
No, morals don’t “run out”. Either you have morals and you respect the animals or you don’t. There is no middle ground. Yes, it is hard sometimes, but it is hard for the animals ALL the time.
@@rondarkman. Boomer Steve - are you sure you know how to cook? Your generation just expects the women to wait on you hand and foot. You seem like the type.
If mental gymnastics was a sport, then this guy would be an Olympic gold medalist 🥇
Yes, something has definitely gone haywire with his brain. Chemically dumbed down, narcissistic, apathetic, or just lazy-minded?
If virtue signaling was a sport then Joey would be an Olympic gold medalist
Seriously, I don't need to go to the gym, I'm already physically exhausted just watching this guy
@@zachattack9801 why do you think Joey virtue signalling?
@@zachattack9801 people who use virtue signaling as an insult like you have don't understand what the saying actually means and are just trying to avoid the actual issue.
This was a really interesting debate. His point on how most things we do in our society cause a certain level of suffering and how its difficult to know what to do/ what not to do and where the threshold lies is a really good one. I agree, that it isn't physically possible for the average person to be 100% moral and to cause 0 suffering. However, for me, its about doable and sustainable moral behaviour. Being vegan is becoming increasingly easy, and is a really efficient way of doing a lot of good, without it being impossible. So while I still need to buy a phone, and clothes and food that unfortunately is transported across the world, I can attempt to reduce my impact within this system by making small, sustainable changes (eg. being vegan or buying second hand). So to counter him, while it is difficult/ impossible to be completely virtuous, being vegan is a great way to help that. And stopping for 3 months a year seems pointless as it undoes the hard work put in to BE more virtuous. Yes we cant mentally handle being completely ethical or perfect, but stopping veganism in order to achieve this seems silly when we already do 'unethical' things simply to survive in our society. I hope that kind of made sense! :)
It did! And it was well put besides. Anyone who has been a vegan for a while recognizes what he is struggling with.
I have an example. I used to buy bananas that are not organic because they are not on the "dirty dozen" list and we don't eat the peel. Then I read (on Food Revolution) about the people that harvest bananas and how badly they are treated and that organic growers have less abuse. Since I can afford organic bananas, I started buying organic bananas to help reduce harm to the people who harvest them.
@@yosf5221 I got two sixteen year old boys they are vegan activists. I am self employed in the sport fishing industry. They asked me how I live with myself knowing that everything we have has been paid for with the blood of innocent animals? I really didn't want to raise hypocrites because that wouldn't be right for vegan activists accepting assets from someone in the sport fishing industry. So they don't have cell phones, college funds, they refuse to get part time jobs so they don't have their own money, I also cut them out of my will they will get nothing.
However I do provide them with a roof over their heads, their locally grown organic food all year round. And we live in Northeast Iowa. Their science teacher taught them that a truck hauling twenty cows ten miles to the slaughterhouse releases more pollution than the same truck driving 2,500 miles loaded with plants for human consumption.
She also points out to the students whose parents are in animal agriculture and people like me that we are all the second coming of Hitler. She really explains to the students that I am probably the worst person in town. Because growing up I commercially fished in Alaska.
She said one hundred percent of the pollution in the ocean is from commercial fishermen. She didn't mention anything about the cruise ships because she has family that hold director positions and make really good money on those ships.
They have been known for throwing trash into the ocean. But one can go without so many items that we take for granted today. Twenty five years ago you wouldn't really think you could buy a car with a cell phone.
My boys wanted to buy these shoes but I explained to them that they weren't vegan leather and everything you buy has to be vegan approved. Shampo, toothpaste, everything even your clothes.
They are doing very well without the luxury items that I took away from them. When they get out on their own they will know that they don't need all those items that a non vegan uses everyday..
@@shawndarling1980 I don't know how your comment related to bananas and making small changes to lessen the harm we cause in the world, but thank you for sharing your cognitive dissonance. I hope you will be able to see a way out of harming fish so you can live in peace with your sons.
@@yosf5221 Sorry about that but see most vegans don't see or care about the human side in harvesting plants for human consumption. I should have put that in my rant.
I went and showed my boys the lettuce harvest and bell pepper harvest where we live. They just said so what they can find different jobs. Then they said it is those people who work in slaughterhouses and on factory farms they are the ones that are stuck in those jobs.
Before they went vegan things were great between us. They were talking about getting part time jobs and we did a bunch of things together. Now when I do manage to get time off. I ask them if they want to do something they immediately research it to find out if it is vegan friendly.
He's plant-based, not vegan. Big diff.
He couldnt answer the first question joey asked him and when he did, it wasnt about the animals. Plant-based, not vegan.
It was so obvious, I just had to let out a little laugh when Joey said it derived from ego.. called him out 😂
He literally didn't get what he was being asked.
This distinction between plant-based diet and veganism really needs to be clarified. No such thing as an "ex-vegan," just someone self-absorbed who never bothered to connect the dots or empathize with the animals.
Bullshit I'm a 63 yr old plant based vegan I refuse to buy processed foods it's junk i would never eat animals and don't miss it ,I don't have pets and wouldn't take on the responsibility but I am a pigoneer which means I pay every mth to feed pigs saved from slaughter.If someone tells me they don't eat meat or fish I think thank god less suffering.
@plurabelle5 i think a narc eating meat 3 onths a year is better than uir average person eating animal products everyday tho
If vegans eat backyard eggs, we justify everyone eating backyard eggs. There aren't enough backyard hens to meet that demand, therefore factory farmed supply and demand is the industrial solution. Why can't people understand this? SMH
I confuse the heck out of people when I point out backyard chickens are factory farmed chickens. When they try to insist they aren't I ask them, "Do those chickens lay an egg a day?"
"Yeah, of course."
"Then they're factory farmed chickens. They've been selectively bred to lay an egg a day which is unnatural and very damaging to the chicken. It's like if a woman was heavy on her period 24/7 and like you would expect in that situation, they suffer from vitamin deficiencies like iron deficiencies and osteoporosis. Their eggs can also get stuck inside their body and they'll die. Chickens are only supposed to lay 3-5 eggs a month, one each day. Again, like a woman's period. Any chicken that lays an egg a day is factory farmed."
You can practically hear the AOL sign on noise going on in their head trying to wrap their brain around it. lol. And that's not even bringing up how most people with backyard chickens will kill and eat them the moment they feel the chicken isn't giving them enough of what they want.
@@suicune2001 Yea, I think it's also important to point out all the male chicks which are killed at birth in order to breed and raise backyard chickens.
@@libertyvegan6686 I didn't know they did that as well with backyard chickens. Good to know!
@@suicune2001 lol @ aol sign.. nice one
@@bazza5699 Thanks. :)
People claiming to be vegan when they are not, do not have empathy for all animals and when questioned they would be easily recognisable as not being vegan. But because they say they are, we too often trust them without question.
I know thag I will never not be vegan and I did not call myself vegan until I knew I would not be consuming or using animals intentionally anymore.
You are right, but I distrust these plant-based dieters immediately, they always give themselves away by never mentioning the animals. To me stopping being vegan never once popped in my mind for one second all these years.
I had the same feeling on a sanctuary where I mentioned I would be discussing animal ag in a speech for one of my classes and one of the literal people working at that farmed animals sanctuary didn’t think I should take the opportunity! Just doesn’t make any sense to me. Keep in mind this same sanctuary had non vegan cookies out for eating. Just doesn’t make any sense.
@@caseyvenable7701
It doesn't make sense.
They are damned vegans. Damned if they do mention the animals and damned if they don't.
it's probably harder for young people to stay vegan. they may become vegan just because it sounds cool, but when they realise the size of the commitment it entails, they get a bit overwhelmed. when you're older, you've had a lot more time to think about it. also, there is the extra incentive of health
This is interesting to me. I'll be going to Japan for three months. I'll be in big cities and also very rural areas. I've heard that Japan isn't the most vegan friendly place outside the large cities. However, I'm not too worried. I think the most difficult situation would be being in someone else's home and having to refuse some food they prepared for me (especially with language barrier). But, there are always options and planning goes a long way!
Yeah, humans have been cultivating fruit and vegetables all over the world for a long time. There’s always options. Even if you have to avoid dining out. 😊
I’d say maybe try and learn some vegan and food words in Japanese, so if your at someone’s house you can at least try and verbalise it.
From what I’ve seen in videos, some noodles like sesame noodles, fresh fruit and veg, canned sweetcorn soup, stuff like that would be good. I wouldn’t worry either, I’m sure you’ll be fine. Have an amazing time! I think that’s on everyone’s holiday wish list.
@@rondarkman. I’ve been meatless for 20 years. The only reason people stop is because they’re weak willed. Meat is addictive. Have you ever heard someone say, “I don’t think I could stop eating meat.” I have plenty of times and it reminds me of the nonchalant attitude I had towards smoking when I smoked as a youth. Meat involves confinement and exposing animals to their companions suffering and slaughter. It can’t be enjoyable. We can live on plants.
@@rondarkman. yeah I know. You’re just another one of the many who thinks something that isn’t funny is funny. Take care.
@@rondarkman. in case you haven’t heard it, here’s a good slogan for you: “ANIMALS ARE NOT OURS TO EXPERIMENT ON, EAT, WEAR, USE FOR ENTERTAINMENT, OR ABUSE IN ANY OTHER WAY.”
So no, they’re not here for you. The same way you’re not here for someone to mug or harass or hurt, right?
I love this guy's vibe, physically and mentally, I could see myself being friends with him, and I value his big-picture and outside-the-box thinking about environmental issues, (I do love all the places a conversation topic such as veganism could go) despite them not having a huge place in the vegan conversation, I also went the rout of Vegetarian for 10+ years and 2+ resent years vegan. I don't miss the dairy in the slightest, but I have 0 pressure on what I eat and ensure nothing is made for me or given to me, so I could potentially understand a scenario where opening the vegan conversation to a loved one (let's say one who doesn't get it or never remembers, but they're family) would be hard for some people, I'm a person who lets people know right away that I'm not going to fall for any type of peer pressure, but again, for some, it would be tempting to fall for any type of peer pressure, and I feel like this man isn't ready to stand up to everyone and anyone for his beliefs, I sympathize with that, although I don't agree with it in this context because I strongly believe animals and their bodily functions should not be products and should also not be seen for consumption aside from freely sharing earth together and bonding in this current development on earth and going forward,
I'd love to hear this guy discuss a variety of topics. Such an intelligent thought provoking dude.
yea, he thinks a bit too much about everything tho
I totally get it. I was vegetarian when I was 13 and then turned vegan at 18 but it was really like a whole new programming and then had a lot of shame speaking up to my friends and family and really standing my ground. Depression hit me too and I started eating meat and dairy and everything. It wasn’t until my dog died that it clicked and now I do a lot of research and learned about the dairy industry and am sick to my stomach thinking about the disgusting things we do to innocent child like animals! That is why my husband and I raise our children vegan too and do not make any exceptions for anything. If people try to give to give our children treats we always ask if it is vegan and even though it can turn the situation a little awkward when we turn it down (because they are normally not vegan) we still try to stay friendly and just nicely turn it down because there is nothing good about eating animal products (for us in our life situation). No excuses! Animals are not food and enough is enough of raping, abusing and murdering them like it is somehow excused. #veganforever #veganforjazzy
I feel like we need to make these things lifestyles not trends. Also nutritionally and psychologically I feel like no one should go vegan as a teenager. It may be controversial to say it, but adapting your body to a big change when it’s already going through so many changes, may cause more problems. IMO.
I think it must be easier to have been vegan since birth. But I haven’t done research into that.
I disagree. A plant based diet is appropriate for all ages. Milk is often a cause of acne. I sure wish I had known this when I was a teenager. Maybe I would have had less ridicule and taken fewer antibiotics.
"Animals are not food," is this the Law that will stop the flow of Pork chops 🥩🍖🥩🐖 to my plate 😆🤣😆🤣🤣🤣😆🤣🤣😆🤣😆🤣😆🤣😆🤣
@@donolonisa5787 Are you still defending rape and murder (because we'll never stop them), stoning women to death (because it's legal) and eating your young/licking your ass (because animals do it)? Pretty sad.
Proud of you ❤
His main point is the practicability of being morality consistent 24/7
Kind of a strange conversation. The young man was really stretching for a way to ease his conscience.
You can't be a part time vegan just like you can't be part time dead, a bit pregnant, mostly human but from time to time a rock, etc. Plant based eating is one thing, veganism another (half vegan or part time vegan doesn't exist).
Is that so
@@donolonisa5787 you either
fucking care about The animals
and boycott their suffering or you
are part of The Cause of it. End of
He isn't vegan. He's plant-based. Case dismissed.
Yeah, the title should NOT say "quit veganism" -- Joey should change it to "quit a plant-based diet," the two different lifestyles really need to stop being conflated and confused as interchangeable and the same.
1:05
In other words, he is NOT a vegan. 😢
I think all morality ultimately does have an egotistic drive to it; I think his point was not that he only does things that are ego-driven. He was making a subtle point that Joey didn't pick up on. Notice when Joey asks about animal suffering and rights, he goes "yeah that's the rationalistic reason". What he was saying was that there are rational reasons not to exploit animals, and to believe animals have rights, but when it comes to people actually ACTING on those beliefs, they don't do so for rational reasons but rather for ego-driven reasons. The reason why I think this was the point he was making was that he goes on to say "people don't change for rationalistic reasons". This is very true; most people change their minds or actions for emotional or social pressure-related reasons (such as being confronted with imagery of slaughter or having a lot of friends and family go vegan), which is ego-driven, and THEN the rationalisation starts.
The same thing is seen in religious converts; often they first get an emotional shock or exposure, like going to a religious community and being overwhelmed by a kindness or generosity, they then accept the religion, THEN they start studying the theology and rationalisations for believing in God and scripture or whatever.
This is the point the guy in the video was making. He accepts the rational reasons for veganism - he doesn't deny it - but he also realises that rationality isn't what drives morality, but ego (with rational consolidation happening post-hoc).
Unfortunately, a lot of the commenters and Joey seem to have missed this subtle point. Dude was just being honest and pointing out how humans actually undergo moral paradigm shifts:(
As for whether he is plant based or vegan, that depends on how you define it; if accepting the principles of veganism is enough, then he is vegan. If you have to be vegan 100% of the time, then he is not vegan. He would also not be plant-based because that implies a purely dietary change without underlying moral beliefs, but this guy clearly buys the moral arguments for veganism.
This is not trying to excuse the idea of vegan "holidays", which is still unethical, but I am just trying to get people to see what this guy was actually talking about.
Plant based is so much harder psychologically. You basically starve the body, it also takes a mental strain. The body can literally only do plant based for so long. But it can do veganism for a human life time.
He looks like a student, so he may of done it to join a movement, and now sick and tired of doing it. Also not sure what nutrients in the form of pills he might or might not take. Just shows everyone that if your going vegan, research and do it properly from the start.
@Jessie B Why would you starve eating a plant based diet?
Joey, the title should NOT say "quit veganism," but "quit a plant-based diet." The two really need to stop being conflated and confused as interchangeable and the same. There is no such thing as an "ex-vegan," and it's all about the animals, not just what you eat.
Very true. I wish when I started I knew the difference between vegan and plant based. Constant research is key when starting out.
@@rondarkman. Hey Boomer Steve! Now I know critical thinking skills and understanding things gets harder as you age (that's DEFINITELY not what she said), but veganism is an ethical stance where we reduce the harm to animals as far as possible and practical. Not only do we not eat animal products but we don't wear their skin or products on our bodies or pay for it on our furniture. A plant-based diet is part of a vegan lifestyle. Get it now? I know that cholesterol is gumming up the works - just let me know if you need it explained another way, Hun.
The title should be enyone can be Vegan, based on their choice
This was interesting, being vegan for 8+ years now I know it can be hard never like what he was saying but it can be mentally straining at times I just look at an animal and remember how amazing they are and why we do it.
I find it hard to separate all my values and beliefs. Veganism isn't a standalone issue but part of the whole. Hard to understand why someone supporting animal rights, human rights, LGBTQ+ rights, workers rights, socialism/communism, climate measures etc. wouldn't support all the others. (Not directed at Joey or the interviewee as I didn't get those kind of vibes from this vid)
"Part time -animal abuser- vegan" 🤡He took the Oatly advert from last year (or 2 years ago?) serious🤡
The iPhone factory example represents global capitalism in general. It’s not about boycotting one particular iPhone factory, but buying those things does cause suffering and death. It’s just harder to talk about it in the context of veganism because it’s obvious that you can buy vegetables instead of nest to save animals, but buying anything at all under capitalism has a good chance of harming humans. There’s no simple swap like there is with vegan vs. omni. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter, but Joey is used to talking about veganism and so he’s got a bit of a mental block here.
If you can cause a death more directly or less directly, both deaths are equally wrong for the victim, but the more direct killing is worse for the perpetrator. As in the killer is more guilty if they kill more directly, but the actual effect of their actions is the same. If you’re the one who’s dying, you don’t care if you were killed directly or indirectly, you just want to survive!
🐘🌱 He is struggling to justify Himself 😢🪿
But deep down you know he's making sense
nah he cringe , joey gud@@Andy-h1n8v
As soon as I have a choice to buy an ethical smartphone I will be happy to do so.
you should look into "fairphones"
@@clankfishplease patent and sell that idea
Buying second hand maybe
@@mmc1086 its a real product 😅
All my electronics are second hand, that goes for my laptop and smartphone. So no more demand.
I think if you don't eat animals and dairy you should stick to that ALWAYS no matter who offers you a cheese sandwich
Veganism is COMPASSION FOR ALL ANIMALS
They've now perfected sharp cheese from cultured cashews, for crying out loud! (credit to Miyoko's, who nailed the taste)
Lamb chops 🥩🐑🐑🐑, is much better than cheese sandwich
I agree. By accepting that cheese sandwich you cannot be opposed to eating cheese in the eyes of those who saw you eating it and you are bound to always accept animal products offered to you at risk of causing offence.
Everyone I know is non vegan and I have got used to them rolling their eyes or gently mocking me for strictly applying my principles but I am also aware that they would almost certainly view any equivocation on my part as an abandonment of the principle.
This man would think that taking such a stance is difficult but once you understand that every animal product necessarily involves a victim it isn’t hard at all.
good time to educate granpa 🥪
as you reject his snot-sandwich
Me… I’ve eaten meat nearly every day for my entire life. Used to laugh in the face of vegans…
But… the past couple of months I’ve had a flash of disgust when I see slabs of meat going on forever in supermarkets. I’m noticing I’m throwing away more meat (which makes it even worse) and your videos have done it for me. I’m making the switch. Simple as that. Thank you. That’s all I have to say.
You are awesome. ❤ Good luck on this new stage in your life. Make sure to take B12 and note that switching generally means a lot more fiber than you currently eat so drink more water, consider digestive enzymes, and know that your body will adjust in a few weeks.
Also, get used to spending more money, having a big inconvenience in the calorie to food ratio, being ostracized from most of society, and your newfound smug attitude. Now you're a Happeh Healtheh Vegunnn!
Interested in being a part time vegan. How peculiar!!!! Do it for a month see its good for everyone involved then do it forever ❤
Quite a bit of hate in the comments here. To instantly call this person not vegan is super cringe, and to play the "just plant based" card is even more embarassing. Clearly this person bases their choices on moral considerations, which is what veganism is about. They actually raise some good points and are honest and open enough to admit their moral failings. Some people over here like to scold as a kneejerk reaction when language deviates from the orthodox vegan path, almost as if they themselves are so insecure that if they allow ANY "dissident" thought in their mind they themselves will lose their way. We live in a carnist as fuck society, cut people that are clearly on our (human & nonhuman) side some slack.
I think they also made a good point re: transportation and deaths. Joey makes the case that taking a plane does not violate anyone's rights, but what if we consider having good overall health or having clean air a right? (these can also be formulated in a negative way of course). Then by funding the plane flight you directly subsidize the violations of those rights of those affected.
The above case, like many cases raised in this video, is not that clear cut as we would like it to be. Most vegans can and should definitely do better with regards to their consumption of products that concern animal suffering. The phone example is an often raised one, and usually dismissed with the argument that we don't know if boycotting has a positive impact. But there are actual alternatives (at least Fairphone, idk about others), and the case is easily made that you have a better impact by opting for those.
tl;dr any vegan who has a different phone to a Fairphone should keep their criticism on this video/person to themselves
wow.. this guy is literally running through the vegan bingo card, one square at a time..
You did great in this 🖤
He's a Carnivore spy
He seems to be saying that he thinks not eating meat and dairy is a form of suffering and or a loss for him; and his concern is how moral he should be to be a decent memeber of his community. How much can he get away with and still be a "moral" person.
I would ask him then how and where else is he ready to test his morals? Suffering from not getting sex for a week? Maybe it's time to start thinking about r*pe? Suffering from low income? Maybe he could rob someone. When it comes to violating rights and harming another living being, there can't be question about whether you can exploit something, because it would make you feel better. It's wrong and completely unnecessary and no one goes through life without any suffering.
@@Bl4ckheart Good examples. I would just say that I do not "suffer" from not eating the flesh or secretions of animals. The idea of eating animals is horrific to me. I am trying to understand how HE is thinking. His thought process reminds me of someone raised in a religion, like Catholisism, and was taught to see moral decisions as a sacrifice. I don't know if I am explaining myself well.
@@jean6453 I haven't watched the full video, so I don't know what points the guy has made, but anyway, I agree with you on thinking about eating animals is simply just no, I don't see them as food at all. But the thing is, the guy or whoever you might have conversation with, can simply say "well, I don't think the same, I actually crave for some meat, I've been avoiding it because morals, but now I figured I'm suffering from not having it". That's why I would form my reply around other cases of "suffering", because if he claims that's suffering (having a strong appetite for meat for example), then anyone can easily say they have a strong appetite for sex or money or power and so they could come up with very questionable solutions to satisfy those needs.
@@Bl4ckheart I agree with your examples to show how immoral and illogical his rational is. 👍
I believe he was psychologically exhausted, I believe he wanted to stop playing the "I can be perfect game." I think he is beginning to feel emotionally disconnected from his loved ones. I think this has to be talked about deeply in Vegan to Vegan conversations. I consider myself Vegan for 7 years by now. I buy cheese and eggs for my girlfriend, once a year I eat a not vegan traditional bread in my country which contains milk and eggs ("pan de muerto") I don't buy it, I just participate in the celebration and I eat the bread when offered obviously i like the bread. Does that make me not vegan??? Well, you decide for yourself. It is something I just do.
🌱🍃Yes it's total obtaining from using any Animal Products basically but Your helping the cause & probably Healthier than most 🍎🥬🥥
👍*Obstaining * Projective Texting 🤣
Yes!
I’m vegan, and love Joey. However, this was the Joey’s best. But it was a very difficult conversation for sure. I like that Joey remained patient and calm. Tried to understand and come up with the best answer.
For example: Less evil option is to give them a low income countries give a job. Then others can say, “less evil option is to give them a life even if we take it away later.”
Many other point by Joey didn’t feel right.
Economics get complicated when you have to consider the political dimension.
Often those sweatshop jobs are only good options likely due to neo-colonialism.
Would Dominican Republic have sweatshops if the US military didn’t support the coup against the democratically elected president Juan Bosch?
Am I supporting/rewarding the primarily foreign American investors owned businesses in DR by purchasing products from those workshops?
Veganism is still the correct approach regardless of all this, but I’m not sure Joey should be so ambivalent about the current capitalist world order.
This guy was plant-based not vegan. He doesn't think like a vegan or even act like one. He's more vegetarian and will probably go there because it's easier.
Yeah, not once when Joey was asking him why he would be vegan did he mention animals.
He was vegan
@@zachattack9801 shush zach
He was though
I really can’t understand why there are “vegans” and “vegetarians” who want so badly to find some kind of loophole to consume animal products when they supposedly understand animal exploitation and speciesism. How can you understand the ethical implications of it and still see these “products” as food???
When I went vegan, animal “products” were no longer food?
(And I am aware that vegetarians don’t fully understand the ethical implications/ don’t want to see the truth… I’m including vegetarians in this statement who want to find some kind of loophole to consume animal bodies or something/ whatever they usually avoid for “ethics”)
Vegetarians can exist purely from ignorance. These are people who are bothered at the thought of eating flesh, but don't realize how exploitative and cruel the entire animal industry is.
I realize I don't know you Joey. But can't help but LOVE you for the person you are. You are an all around inspiration ✨️ Thank you! Animal Guardian here for 26 years now and will be forever. 💚🌱🤜🤛
When I was vegetarian, I was doing it for the animals but I hadn't made the connection fully. When I was drunk, I would eat meat. When I went vegan, it was a whole emotional experience. I saw the suffering and I was majorly depressed by it. Now I do not see meat as food at all, and my nightmares consist of me suddenly changing and eating meat. Like that is a nightmare scenario because it disgusts me so much. Even when it's inconvenient, even when I feel left out, even when there are no good options on the menu. I think this guy hasn't made the connection fully.
@@rondarkman. okay, so you have an entire UA-cam account presumably to troll vegans. That's a lot of effort. You must care a lot about this in some warped way to put so much of your time into it. When you see a vegan video like this, what do you feel?
@@rondarkman. ah, playing hard to get are we. Don't want to break that facade. Very well
It's crazy that the very first words out of his mouth weren't, "I think veganism is about not causing unnecessary harm to sentient beings. I don't think that animals should suffer because of my fleeting desires." or something along this nature. He doesn't seem to really understand what veganism actually is which is his primary problem. He has no real objective or foundational underpinning. No wonder he thinks he can vacillate at will. 😞
Smart dude, attentive listener and honest interlocutor, so refreshing🤩 He shows how emotions can get the better of us and illustrates the value of strengthening ones mental fortitude to enable a more ethical society and world. Plant🥦 strong💪 in body, Vegan in mind 🧠/spirit.
The biggest similarity between the damage done buying an iPhone vs eating a burger is that they are both done off-screen and you don't see it. Like, they are both just presented as different things to purchase, in our society. This makes them _seem_ like they should be similar wrongs, but the reality is still that a being is definitively and an order-of-magnitude being horrifically harmed directly in the burger scenario.
If both supply chains could be end-to-end transparently seen when you see them in the store, still the burger would come out way worse morally. (And to illustrate this, you can bring it to dogs- of course a dog burger is seen as completely worse than our electronics sourcing issues).
I understand where he is coming from. Majority of vegans quit because society just isnt supportive. 😢
At the end of the day, for me, I think of all the baby animals I've personally seen, in those awful conditions. I could never support such cruelty.
There seem to be no vegan groups that educate. I’ve only seen one vegan app, I think the world needs to wake up.
Yes, society doesn't want to support the Shitty Vegan 💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩 diet, because meat is delicious 🍖🍗🥪🌭🍔🐔🐓🐖🐓 soooooo deliiiiiiiiiiiiciouuuuuuuuus
@@jessieb7290 DOZENS of vegan groups, individuals and animal rights groups out there doing their best to publicise and educate all the time!!
I think some dye-in-the-wool vegans really downplay the affect that social norms has on ppl going vegan
@@KsandrPannagree. It's hard to have family and friends exclude you or act weird around you. It is definitely like leaving a cult. I have left a cult twice. Once when I left Mormonism and again when I became vegan. Same experience.
As a late 20s/early 30s guy, the inspector gadget mac isn't doing him any favours. Obviously intelligent but I don't think he's vegan really...
Inspector Gadget?
Funny!
Inspector Buddy Holly
This video and the Alex/Peter Singer response video have got me pondering moral philosophy issues. Living in the modern world is so very complicated, as we live in a highly globalised economy so the results of our economic choices can be wide reaching to people, ecosystems and animals all across the world.
Many debates on veganism revolve around the utilitarian (maximising wellbeing, minimising suffering) vs Rights-based. The Rights based moral perspective says "this action contravenes this individual's rights therefore it is always wrong" but has the disadvantage that it's not always easy to decide what rights individuals are entitled to, it is open to debate because you cannot see or experience 'Rights', they are ideas. Whereas the utilitarian moral perspective has the advantage that we directly experience suffering - we observe other animals and through out faculties of empathise with them, see that they suffering too, and seek to end their suffering. But it has the disadvantage that it's possible to think up scenarios of people doing obviously wrong things, for the sake of "maximising wellbeing for the many."
Perhaps there is no perfect moral philosophy, we just have to do the best we can.
Thought experiment: Imagine there is an all-knowing utilitarian calculator that could give instructions on what to do in every action. It knows the results of every single action, taking into account every single consequence of your actions. What would it recommend to do, and to avoid doing? What would life look like if we all followed it's instructions?
So what would an ethical world look like, taking into account every aspect of our economy?
Food: Vegan. This is one of the easiest lifestyle choices to implement for most people today. Resulting in the maximum reduction of suffering to animals, there would be a massive environmental improvement with the ocean's healing, mass rewilding, vastly reducing carbon emissions. In this world plant and mushroom farmers and workers would be paid fairly. Some of the ex-animal farmers would help with the conservation work and rewilding.
Clothing: Sustainable (what materials are the best? how many clothes are too many?) genuinely fair trade.
Transport: Designing cities so that people can get around by public transport, walking and cycling as easily as possible. There is a debate around ecars and other such things because of the environmental damage or mining for precious mineral and metals for electronics and batteries.
Shelter/building materials: Sustainable. Small environmental impact e.g. not taking lumber from rainforests
Electronics: Again, it's easy to forget the terrible working conditions of people mining for the materials we need for electronics, and the people on the assembly lines. They need to be given the best working conditions possible not treated like slaves. Apple and other electronics
Entertainment: Personal choices to avoid forms of entertainment that exploit humans and animals.
I'm a plant based eater but not vegan. I'd like to go full vegan in the future, will buy vegan shoes next time I buy shoes.
Thank you for your work Joey and team! You’re a light in this world for animals.
Except those on my plate 🍖🥚🍳🍖🥩 🥩🥩🍖🍗🥪🌭🍔🐔🐓🐖🐓🐖
Loved this one. Internal discussions are more useful to me than conversations with carnists. Thanks to both of you
Thank you for having these conversations!
About the causal chain thing - it's not just about whether there "exists" a causal chain. It also matters whether we *can* even know about it. Presumably a butterfly flapping it wings "can" cause a hurricane on the other side of the world which wouldn't have happened otherwise. But the only way we could know this is to model the atmosphere at the atomic level (which is impossible given the current technological limitations).
There might be more to a rights-based view than this, but I think this definitely supports a rights-based approach; if we view ourselves as individuals who are part of larger systems, you can't implement a rigid policy like "maximize utility" at the individual level and expect the same "goal" to propagate up to the system-level. We lack the necessary knowledge as individuals to "maximize utility" at the system-level given that society is a complex/chaotic system. Instead, it seems that policies like "don't violate a set of basic rights of others" may be more likely to result in a higher utility overall because this approach addresses the immediate causes of suffering, which we can observe and understand as individuals. This policy doesn't depend on the actions and beliefs of those around you. If I have a belief that killing an animal in a public square will make people feel bad enough to go vegan, I won't do it because, regardless of the possible downstream consequences, I know that this action WILL harm (and violate the rights of) the animal who is killed. From a strict utilitarian perspective this decision becomes intractably complex - whatever I decide may have enormous consequences with regard to utility, but it seems that (in this view) I'm just as likely, given the limitations of my knowledge, to choose the option that eventually causes great harm as I am to choose the option that eventually causes great benefit.
And also, the issues that do function at the system level (things like systemic racism, wealth disparity, etc.) must be addressed at the system level. In these cases, individuals usually cannot predict exactly how their actions will propagate up to the system level, but we can understand how institutions and government policies can impact these dynamics. Of course this is the case, but it seems that there is a necessary condition at the individual level for these system-level approaches to even have a chance of being effective. You can't hope to eliminate systems that perpetuate racism at the system level if explicit racism is rampant at the individual level.
Joey what’s your opinion on the pet food industry? Talk to us about what you’d like to see adapted in the industry. I also am a pet owner. I have a cat who needs fish and meat in her diet. What do you think could replace traditional methods? I’d love your thoughts and opinions. Thanks again for what you do. Stay blessed
There are several types of vegan cat food on the market. Mic the Vegan recently did an episode on a systematic review of pet food studies. Interesting stuff.
@@Max.Resilience How so? If the multitude of studies are showing no statistical difference then how do you figure? Did you know ALL commercial dog/cat food has added synthetic aminos to it? The slaughterhouse floor scraps don't have enough nutritional value as is. Did you even look into it? Or are you just taking the typical biased carnist stance?
The underpinning beneath everything is that there is no justifiable reason to needlessly take a sentient life, it’s destructive and brings such negative energy that ricochets.
One thing i still battle with (open to viewers to reply to this) is the market of secondhand leather goods, mostly focusing on vintage designer furniture pieces as they are largely all leather and whilst it doesn’t create a market to use animals as you can’t produce a new ‘vintage’ piece from the 1960s but it does normalise using flesh as a product. As it’s crazy to throw away things like this that are already produced but … tell me your thoughts.
I really like this guy and his attitudes for the most part. Good points shared and refreshing convo
This is why I started my Veganism Weekly Reminder every Friday. For individuals just like this. Veganism is not a diet nor is it about the environment. This person is part time plant based at best so he and everyone else needs to stop using the word vegan.
Veganism is an ethical stance one takes that they are against animal oppression and violence for not only food but for clothing, entertainment, animal testing, hunting, fishing, etc. It's not something you turn on and off. Do you turn on and off being racist? Abusing children? No!
These plant based for the environment individuals are obliterating this movement and they need to get away from veganism and Animal Liberation and take their arrogance and selfishness elsewhere. My mother could be dying and if she offered me a sandwich with someone's stolen secretions and I would tell her no in a heart beat.
What is your Veganism Weekly Reminder? Like a sticky note or a podcast or a mailing list? My mind is wandering while wondering.
He lost me when he said "evading taxes can lead to deaths"
an NPC slave... This is how strong the leash is on humans neck.
Insufficiently funding public services like the NHS, child protective services, the fire department, or the police can indirectly lead to suffering.
That’s not a contentious position.
It’s still not a good reason to abandon veganism, but let’s not pretend that we currently live in an anarchist society.
If you believe in public services as a force for good, it logically follows that not paying suffer taxes is morally bad.
If you don’t trust your public services are a force for good, then the opposite is true.
The guy is fundamentally wrong, taxes do not fund government expenditure regardless, in the UK Bank of England does
@@xenoblad the premise is actually in simple terms, accidentally and indirectly causing someones death far down the chain of events compared to paying for someone to die to wear their skin. One is not considering or intending at all for any death and the other is intentionally asking for someone to die. it's comparing an accident to murder. Worlds apart.
@@80slimshadys We can acknowledge the difference while accepting the similarity in consequences.
If we have knowledge of our indirect harm, and we care about the consequences, then there is some argument that there is a moral consideration to be had.
For example, if we had the technology to viably grow crops in a vertical fashion that would eliminate the deaths of field pests, there would be a case to be made that eating crops from traditional farms would be less vegan then buying from a vertical farm assuming both options are equally accessible and affordable.
Murder is worse then manslaughter, but it's still preferable to take actions to reduce both.
@@xenoblad I think that's disanalogous. We can't recognise the indirect harm in taxes because there is no way to account for any death you caused and is a "maybe" situation whereas buying animal products is not. It's not a certainty any emergency service will be needed and that your non-involvement was the cause of any death but with animal products there is accountability because you are actually holding someone that died because of your involvement.
I also have a contention with the vertical farming being "more vegan" than conventional. For that to be the case there would have to be rights violations occuring and protection of property does not entail that. Protection of property is not exploitation and the definition of vegansim is to avoid exploitation, not death. It might be the better option but it doesn't make you more vegan because conventional farming isn't breaking vegansim in any way.
Although I disagree with the way he goes about it, I think he raises some important points. I’ve been trying to be more conscientious of my consumption of products. I guess that’s pretty much what veganism is. What’s great about veganism is that it’s pretty easy way to know that what you’re buying is not causing unnecessary suffering of animals since their rights aren’t being exploited. However, the exploitation of human rights in the global south and in developing countries is also abhorrent, and so much of our lifestyle is built upon that exploitation.
Not to say that it is equivalent to the animal suffering/rights violations but it is still undeniably significant.
That being said, I wouldn’t use that to justify an annual 3 month break or flexitarian kind of thing, but instead I would argue for complete minimisation of suffering/exploitation across the board, which includes avoiding the suffering of animals AND humans in the production of our products and lifestyles.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but to my knowledge it seems more difficult to trace the human exploitation in products.
Can I butcher an animal myself?
No.
So there´s only one self-coherent choice.
Not a very good argument and lacking in logic. What about the millions of people who are totally capable of killing and eating animals themselves? What about tribal people or farmers who have no problem butchering animals?
That´s their business, not mine.
@@julioandresgomez3201 Most vegans that I've met try to tell other people what they must do as far as eating animals. You are the first vegan I've encountered that didn't care what other people do. I guess you dropped out of the cult.
He was a good person to interview. He may not be consistent with his train of thought but at least he was calm enough and well spoken.
you won't get the absolution you seem to look for. do bad things, then you have to deal with feeling bad about it. Take responsibility ffs
WOW. I went Vegan less than a year ago
Thanks to Earthling Ed and then found
Joey, and I am shocked, that there are
Vegan who justify straying again 😱😬
like, wtf ? you can't even feign ignorance
or claim you need protein, or Vegan food
isn't tasty az hell. this is unbelievable!?!
Those deep thinkers give me a headache. Blah blah blah. Just think of the animals. Easy.
With the donut: Earthling Ed has a great way of answering these sorts of moments of weakness. Instead of saying I am vegan now. Say I am a vegan for this item, this meal, this day, this week etc. It's the same outcome but it's a less daunting perspective. A more empowering frame on why you ought to abstain. One should also remember to commend themselves internally for their continued abstinence as it builds a positive reinforcement with doing the right thing. With choosing long term gratification over hedonism.
He argues like a climate activist vegetarian that likes eggs. No way is he vegan
He's an excusetarian.
@@IceBoNeZ lol that's a new one😂
@@wayneliketowalk3740 😄👍
There's a very big difference in direct and indirect actions, for example, breathing releases CO2 and that could cause respiratory diseases in people and kill them, but that doesn't mean that you can stroll up to someone and stab them. Indirect causes is a very slippery slope.
11:05 "Im talking about reality here"💯💯💯💯💯💯
this man really said that tax evasion is worse than murder. holy fuck
I know right! 😮 the world we live in now; people can convince themselves of anything.
The guy is fundamentally wrong, taxes do not fund government expenditure regardless, in the UK the Bank of England does
Ya, he's brainwashed by the governments
@@pacmanmcgavin7034 You're a clown. Are you sad and lonely or something? You're an old war vet right? Why do you spend your time doing this immature shit? What did you actually get out of saying that? We clearly trigger you.
@@ONeill01 And just where and how does the bank of England get the money
this guy is very intelligent his intentions are pure but he got confused
I think he was struggling with himself and this discussion helped understand animal rights better
what he said about other things we practice in that hurt animals or humans indirectly is very true we should avoid polluting and supporting industries which violet human rights
staying vegan is not hard
@plurabelle5 Well, I agree it the easiest thing, once you've made the connection that behind every single animal product there's a suffering individual. Although I think any non-vegan would react defensively if you told them "they are still asleep." ^^ I guess that also applies to any other topic where you want to persuade someone to get to a certain realization. 🥶
Say's a Herbivore 😉
Fasting is easy as well but it's not easy for everyone
I wonder if he has an eating disorder or maybe it’s part of mental health. Connected to depression and his emotions mixed with the attachment to foods!?
@@rondarkman. how original!
I wouldn't have done nearly as well as you, but having the gift of hindsight, these are the points I'd want to bring up to him:
1.) Red herrings don't have rights.
2.) No perfect consumption under capitalism isn't a coherent excuse to let ourselves not do the best we can.
3.) What evidence does he have that living 3 months "off" 9 months on is any easier than being consistently on? This would be a great chance for you to bring up addiction if you chose to, something you surely know a lot more about than him.
It’s funny how people who are deemed very clever or think they are can sound so dumb.
This guy reminded me of myself some years back. I never considered not being vegan but I worried about everything unnecessary I consumed being immoral as it caused harm to a human or non-human somewhere. I worried about buying a paperback on veganism because of the destruction of animal habitat in the pulp and paper industries. I wondered for weeks if a healthy salad with 10 ingredients from a variety of countries was morally worse than a big bowl of oily pasta due to environmental concerns and the likelihood of more animals being killed on the roads by transport trucks. I went down a rabbit hole and was overwhelmed by the perceived necessity of having to live a puritanical life to be morally consistent. I didn't feel I could criticize someone for unnecessarily eating animals when I bought soda in plastic bottles everyday which is also unnecessary and harmful. While my line in the sand was veganism I wasn't sure I could be up on my soap box when I consumed so much and drove short distances. Eventually I clung to the notion that perfection is the enemy of good to happily live life with all it's privileges and yummy vegan junk food. I hope this chap relaxes a bit and decides that veganism is right for him afterall.
I don't think this man knows what being vegan mean, how would you turn it on and off?, VEGAN FOR LIFE
What can I say we can't control him, he's not a robot
I love sweet potatoes too much. Lol
The idea of drinking cow milk again or meat makes me physically gag.
have you been vegan from birth?
@@MidJourneyJoza no my mother was ignorant to this evil industry, once i was old enough to SEE THE TRUTH i went vegan, 35 years now
Best debate on the channel so far
A company exploiting workers to manufacture a product that is recognized as morally neutral, like a phone, doesn't make the product immoral. The fault lies with the company. One could use the product and protest the company's immoral actions. Animal farming, on the other hand, is recognized as an immoral practice whichs makes an immortal product. So the use of said product is also immoral.
Great convo
14:50 when ur unsure whether or not murder is worse than tax evasion, maybe you need to take a step back
I've was vegetarian intermittent vegan for 3 years. Eating clean whole foods, I began having trouble with getting more and more cavities and food sensitivities. ( I did a blood test to try and adress deficiencies).
After starting to eat meat I just feel much better physically but morally a failure.
Did you talk with a dietician to see where you could improve your diet? There's a lot more now that are plant based and can help.
Thanks, I will keep trying.
Ban Slaughter
@@rondarkman. Get ED 🤷♀️
The I phone argument has actually less to do with the I phone. It’s a socio economical problem. The problem is much wider and deeper than just the factory
🙌🙌🙌🙌
Just because there are injustices somewhere does not justify injustices elsewhere. That is all. All these mental calisthenics to equate iphones and environmental pollution and labor law violations with violations of animal rights are just an exercise in pretzel logic.
Thank you, Joey. ❤
If you're even questioning it you were never really vegan.
That's based around the assumption that all vegans who abstain from eating and using animal products, have thoroughly thought through the position, in all ways imaginable.
I doubt that's true at all.
8 billion Carnist living worldwide agreed
@@JB.zero.zero.1 If you question being vegan, or can be on/off about it, you were never vegan to begin with, just plant-based.
You don't get to call yourself Vegan if you dont belive you can "stick" with it for the rest of your life.
Its not a diet, its not a fad, its not a facebook trend, its morals & ethics, and those dont run out.
Another great conversation Joey
❤❤
Its like him saying I want to be a pedophile for 3 month only !!
Bernard Williams came up in this very interesting conversation. I’ve noticed a lot of talk recently about the psychological motivations for making moral choices. Here it seemed like the moral case for Veganism is ironclad, maybe however, people need emotional motivations to be moral
That guy is loyal to his emotions not to the animals he has no principles compared to Joey Carbstrong speaker and Tarrion Partridge and camera crew team
@7:25 this guy is reasoning deeper than the vegan doctrine, to a point ole uncle joeski didnt even understand the indirect influences of choices, that can also cause harm. I love when vegans assume by default that bc of the doctrines they adhere to, theyre also the most considerate, conscious and intelligent.
Does a rapist who rapes only occasionally make the rape victim no longer a victim no the abuser created an excuse to continue rape
Rape
= Punishable by Law
Enjoying delicious Pork chops 🥩🍖🍖🥩🐖 for dinner
= Bon appetit
@@donolonisa5787 Are you still defending rape and murder (because we'll never stop them), stoning women to death (because it's legal) and eating your young/licking your ass (because animals do it)? Pretty sad.
@@rondarkman. Look at you Boomer Steve! Great job making friends. I'm sorry you're so lonely - I hope you can confide in Donolo. I know he's having ED issues as well.
I will say, in the first part he makes total sense. What he was saying is that if a person kills another one it caused 1 death, but an oil spillage could cause millions. I agree that what matters is who causes more deaths, but we can't believe the murderer is worse by default. Also, climatic events linked to human activity cause millions of deaths every year, so by following the "number of deaths" principle, partecipating in the transport industry is worse than a murder. I believe that's what he was trying to say and I don't think there's a satisfactory answer from a veganism perspective (unfortunately, I'm vegan too lol).
What are these 'exotic' cases wherein a person needs something from an animal's body? I keep hearing the various phrases, but I've never heard anyone follow-up with it. More verbal-fictions? Probably.
This shows that it is in fact difficult to sustain veganism without a solid philosophical base. This is why debates like this are so valuable.
I'm six minutes in, everything he is saying is about HIM, 'how virtuous should *I* have to be?' - who's counting your virtue points? It's not about how you come across to other human beings mate. I'm interested to see how this goes but so far it seems that he thinks that he is the victim...
I'm fifteen minutes through now, I'm agreeing with him now (obviously not about the non vegan bit), I hate capitalism as much as him. What I do as a 'protest', is to buy a phone and then use it until I literally can't anymore. Quite a few of my clothes are over ten years old, and many bought second hand. I wear them until I literally can't anymore. Just don't participate in throw away culture! I think now that he is not really serious about not being vegan, he just wants an opportunity to talk about how wrong capitalism is.
I just don't see dairy as food, I remember how nice it tasted but the thought of ever eating it again is just absolutely gross.
@@bengilkes7676 I think thats it really. I went into an online socratic dialog for a few days now. In a rant about how "consumer choices don't matter and there is plenty of data about it, go read any economics book kiddo, there must be something for dummies" I answer asking about dog fighting and child p^rn and wether or not should we neither judge those consumers? The guy just started rambling about me being a troll.😒people just want to be right. At the end of the day boicotting works ¿have you seen the UK dairys manifestations?
@@emiliohoms6491 ¿Hablas español? No I haven´t , what do you mean by the dairys manifestations?
I would never take that guy seriously wearing those glasses.
That guy lost before he even started… you can’t beat vegans , they are right no matter what the outcome.
Instead of distracting yourself with fruitless arguments , vote against them, educate non vegans about actual improvements in animal agriculture and stability with a sustainable food supply
Yes, tell them the magical myths Bryan needs you to believe in order to continue his exploitation of animals for profit.
@@annoyingbutmorallyconsistent I think you just did
This is why vegans say that there’s no such thing as an ex vegan because no one that is truly vegan would become an ex vegan.
What is their health is failing like so many who had to leave the diet.
@@bobhill4364 UA-cam does not represent the general population. 🤦♀️
@@bobhill4364 Who would have ever guessed when you eat nothing but lettuce or juice your health would fall apart? Ever notice how they jump from one extreme to another? They eat the SAD diet, then fast for 40 days, then eat nothing but raw, then eat nothing but corpses, then drink their own pee, and then cry to everyone online how they just somehow can't get their health under control? Funny how that works out.
In a way this is similar to saying an ex-Christian was never a Christian.
A person can change their mind overtime.
I know you don't like to hear this, but it's true.
We have to be very careful with others when levelling this accusation at them.
This is a defence we use to firm up our own convictions.
@@bobhill4364 This "so many" is something you pulled out of your ass and you know it. Why don't people like you with this logic ever talk about "so many" omnivores who get sick. Oh right, they never get sick because of food, right? It must be all other stuff that doesn't affect vegans. Also, many fake vegans will use health as an excuse to go back, because they know they can't argue moral standpoint.