Bart Ehrman vs. Michael Brown on Suffering
Вставка
- Опубліковано 28 лип 2016
- On April 15th, 2010 at Ohio State University, The Ohio Union Building in the Great Hall Meeting Room, Dr. Bart D. Ehrman and Dr. Michael L. Brown debate “Does the Bible Provide an Adequate Answer to the Problem of Suffering?” The debate was inspired largely due to Bart's book, "God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question--Why We Suffer". Bart argues that the Bible presents such contradictory "answers" to suffering, that we can't really know why there is suffering. For instance, in Amos and the other prophets, there is suffering because God is directly punishing people for their sins. But in books like Job, there is suffering because God is "teaching a lesson." Therefore, when we look at tragedies like a great earthquake, is God punishing them for their sins, or teaching them a lesson? According to Ehrman, we simply cannot know based on the Bible.
Video discussed on Bart Ehrman's Foundation Blog: ehrmanblog.org/?p=11710
Bart D. Ehrman is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He came to UNC in 1988, after four years of teaching at Rutgers University. At UNC he has served as both the Director of Graduate Studies and the Chair of the Department of Religious Studies. A graduate of Wheaton College (Illinois), Professor Ehrman received both his Masters of Divinity and Ph.D. from Princeton Theological Seminary, where his 1985 doctoral dissertation was awarded magna cum laude.
Michael L. Brown holds a Ph.D. in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University and has served as a visiting or adjunct professor at Southern Evangelical Seminary, Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary (Charlotte), Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Fuller Theological Seminary, Denver Theological Seminary, the King’s Seminary, and Regent University School of Divinity, and he has contributed numerous articles to scholarly publications, including the Oxford Dictionary of Jewish Religion and the Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament.
Copyright © Bart D. Ehrman and Michael L. Brown. All Rights Reserved. Unauthorized use, re-posting and/or duplication of this media without express and written permission from those listed.
Suffering for "character development" only makes sense if "character development" is a good in itself, whereas "character development" is only a good because suffering exists in the first place.
I partially agree. I understand what you mean but I would disagree. I do not think it’s that simple. “Character development” isn’t solely a good because of suffering. Are you saying you only work on Character development when you experience suffering in life? You don’t believe people can work on character development even when they are not suffering? Would you not agree that all Character Development can be both used for self purposes as well as seeking to help others (both in which can be done in times of suffering and “peace”)
Believers have a way of giving an elaborate non-answer every time.
Mr. Brown, unfortunately like many "evangelicals", I feel talks AT me rather than to me, which tends only to make me close off.
Rubes
Sorry you feel that way
@@carlosidelone8064 all of his examples for blaming people seem to hint that god is as powerful as a mere mortal as well.
We don't fix these problems because we are flawed. We are working with the hand we are dealt.
He believes in a god who could fix all of this and then blames us for the problems his god created.
But then he believes the god is responsible for only the good and not the bad to cover that
it is called rhetoric and maybe it was an answer.
As a person that has had a very young niece die of childhood cancer, it is very hard to take the religious side seriously.
I'm sorry to hear about you're niece. It's hard to understand such things but no imagined deity was responsible. Life can be unbearably cruel at times.
Yeah and some pathetic apologist will say your niece suffered so horribly because of free will!?!?!?! Makes absolutely no sense at all.
the loss of your niece is tragic and unimaginable. Still, my professor lost his daughter from cancer at the age of 20...it was a slow process...and he came to the opposite conclusion. I don't have any advice, just wanted to give you the information that perhaps there is a way to reconcile suffering with a loving God.
just wait until it's you or your child who has cancer.. let' see if it does not change your worldview.
MyOpenMind: It is not that no deity is responsible for the child dying, it is that your god let the child die and did not help the child or other children who are starving and being raped and murdered, while at the same time this god is "blessing" Christians with their daily necessities. What's wrong with this picture?
1:04:24 "Michael wants to say that this [no afterlife reward] is a hopeless position. Well, it is a biblical position."
Damn, Bart pulls no punches. Well said.
I think this is the first time Bart was so passionate on his argument... FINALLY!!!!
Brown said the Bible's answer for suffering is "subjective". I thought this was going to be a debate involving reasoned argument. Dr. Ehrman kept his part of the deal. Michael Brown delivered testimony, and a sermon to boot.
When Bart talks about suffering he gets quite emotional, as opposed to his normal professorial and sometimes humourous tone. I prefer it when he gets worked up a bit.
Because the suffering issue is the reason he finally decided to leave Christianity, not other topic that he normally talk and debate about, so the emotion is there
The topic of the debate was "Does the Bible give an adequate answer to the problem of suffering?"
Bart Ehrman argued that it doesn't and offered many quotes and their citations. Dr. Brown failed to argue the affirmative, and instead argued from Christian theology, rather than the Bible. Thus Bart Ehrman won the debate hands down, even if you think he didn't do a very good job.
True
The mental gymnastics that religious people to go through to justify their views are amazing.
Chris Mathis seriously. It’s utterly mind boggling.
As a former believer, the threat of hell made me work my mental gymnastics. I couldn't disagree with God's word.
@@magicbeam6821 Well yea because you believed the word of man as the word of god, I'm assuming.
I agree some religious people do go through mental gymnastics and mainly Catholics, mormons, and jehovah's witnesses. That's why it's better to just be christian.
What’s wrong with mental gymnastics?
Michael Brown's whole argument is about how much better life is if you believe, full of anecdote. Bart's argument is based simply whether it's true or not regardless of how it makes people feel.
One of the most important points that Bart ever makes is how wicked people can turn from their ways with a variety of methodologies and theological viewpoints. Also, who says a loving God can't give a unique kind of meaning to people who don't pick the right religion (through no fault of their own I might add)? Assuming God exists, don't you think He'd understand and love His creation enough not to blame them for their inquisitive nature? This is something many modern Christians fail miserably to understand. Their views are so polarized that they think everyone else's quality of life is completely fruitless and empty while they alone are given everlasting joy. How selfish and arrogant is that?
Who cares what Christians think. You should care about what you think. If Jesus lived, then obviously he suffered more than most people ever have, and yet he never condemned God for it. If you don't believe in Jesus, well then of course none of it makes sense.
@@GillAgainsIsland12 Who cares what Christians think?
Apparently skeptics and atheists.
"God is no respector of persons". I can't see any reason why the Deity would shine Her light on some and blame others for not having received it.
God does understand and shows how great his love is by offering us forgiveness. A free gift; by grace through faith. That's all it takes to receive the gift of eternal life ( salvation ). Faith; plus nothing.
Ephesians 2:8-9
( For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:not of works, lest any man should boast).
Everlasting joy or everlasting torment; One is received by faith ( belief ), the other by unbelief.
Those who do not believe are condemned already.
- JESUS
Peace be with you !
@@GillAgainsIsland12 During the time that Jesus lived (the era when Rome ruled the world) extreme cruelty was the order of the day. Jesus suffered mightily but what he went through was in many ways no different than what many others suffered. The Appian Way was once lined with crosses after slaves revolted. Thousands of men and women dying frightful deaths for the crime of trying to be free.
Carthage was salted so that nothing could exist there for millennia. I could go on forever and people today are suffering terribly around the world. War, famine, disease are common in many parts of the world. So why do we see what Jesus endured as being singular?
I wish Bart had mentioned his blog. It is a tremendous force for good and allows his readers to participate in the good work.
How does he explain suffering?
@@michellehalcomb4322 Who have to give an explanation about suffering are believers who think that the existence of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God is compatible with the existence of suffering. Who does not believe is aware that suffering is a consequence of how nature works.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus
God is Holy, God is sinless. Sin leads to death and suffering. Man always Sinned, hatred, Jealous, Lust,Covet. We are all same blood, but we can't deny our shortcomings. God did not make robots, He made us in his image, Now if you chose evil/bad, it will have consequences. Now what is the solution, for you to have Eternal life with God, not just die and perish. So God did something to address this Sin, He took the torture and punishment of sin on the cross. Who Said God is Not Willing? Mr. Chris, He did willinginly suffered the Death and won the death for you, But you have repent and accept his Sacrifice for you and lead a Holy life. Can you do that? Don't be misled bu Epicurus Statement, God is willing and address it for you, took up death and rose victoriously and promised to give Eternal Life
@@truthexclusive9769 Sorry to butt in. I would like to have a discussion if u have the patience and time.
1. Now u say sin leads to suffering. But how does that explain the sufferings innocent people ,children with cancer for example, go thru?
2. Now about people who sin. What is sin? Is looking at a woman with desire sin? But that's natural instinct God put in us. That is the starting point of procreation process. (There is a lot more to say on this topic of sin, maybe later)
3. I was also taught in Bible class, Christ died on the cross after suffering much torture to pay for our sins. But, what I don't understand is what terrible sin did I commit that somebody has to die on cross? I'd happily accept punishment for any wrongs i did. I haven't committed any terrible sins. Maybe I hurt someone with harsh words or didn't help others enough. But I'm ready to undergo punishment for it.
4. You talk about eternal life. I'm not charmed. It is said in the Bible, "Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much' - God doesn't care about us in this world. How can trust him in the next world?
Peace
.
@@JD-ro7xe If he doesnt answer you I will if youd like but let's give him a chance to explain since his name claims truth and I want to see if he speaks truth.
@@truthexclusive9769 So says the Bible, and the con man, and the liar, and the deluded, and the used car salesman, and the hucksters, and the gas lighters, and the psychopath.
@@JD-ro7xe 1. The bible says God is LIFE, hence SEPARATION FROM GOD , cannot be good , it results not only in death but in the deterioration of the human race not only psychologically and morally but also physical deterioration. Disease is a side effect of our separation from God, doctors agree that if a person lives long enough his chances of getting cancer are almost 100% .
2 and 3 . Sin is not only looking at women, LYING IS A SIN THAT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO CONTROL...we all sin , most of us lie on a daily basis...Lies can degenerate form a simple lie (telling your boss you were sick when you are actually hungover) to a very serious lie (a financier selling you a lemon car or taking your life savings telling you he'll get you a good return only to run away with the cash) Envy is also very common and greed is almost universal ...who doesn't want to be a rock star with a hundred girlfriends and a lot of fame or a successful entrepreneur with a yacht and a couple billion in the bank?. But there is a type of evil that certainly deserves severe punishment, such as child torture , child rape, female child circumcision, all the abominations that drug cartels commit such as beheading people and shooting entire families women and children included. To answer your question , Jesus gave a parable saying that God would "pay everyone according to their deeds" and also a parable where he said " if you owe someone (God) pay them (by converting to Christ) before you are taken by the policemen (angels) and thrown in prison (Hell) , I can assure you that you won't get out of there until you have paid off the last quadrant (your sins have been paid for) Many disagree but I think that Hell won't be eternal for some people and that payment is possible , but the person's soul would have to be scrapped after paying for his sins.
4: God doesn't care about us in this world?? HOW ABOUT SENDING HIS SON TO DIE FOR US?? HELLO? Let me tell you something people don't know about, when Jesus was resurrected he became the RESTORED ADAM , meaning he was free from Sin and the curse of Adam which is death , had effectively been defeated. God could have continued on with Jesus as the restored Adam like in the beginning and could have effectively SCRAPPED THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE THEN TO START ANEW ....but He chose NOT TO DO IT ..why? Read John 3:16
"No, your honour, I did no steal Mr. Brown's wallet. He gave it to me willingly while I held a gun to his head."
"Love me or burn in hell for all eternity," is the very definition of coercive.
What if hell was temporary and for the worst people, i.e. Hitler? Would that change your perspective?
@@nathaniel8871 Not mine. It's still coercive and allows Hitler to scapegoat his responsibility minutes before his death and escape hell altogether.
@@nathaniel8871 If you don't die from the gunshot, it was still coercion at gunpoint that was used to steal the wallet.
Gun is not on your head dear. You are free to love God. See, every good attributes come from God but if you want no God in your life that means there wont be anything good in ur life. So, thats hell! Its just the absence of God which means every good attributes is removed from you. God does not deliberately put people into hell. Its a contradiction because we are created in his image and why would He do that.?
God will not force any man to heaven. He will not force anyone to choose His will. He is simply a perfect, omnipotent God and He is a God of laws. He knows the laws perfectly, and He knows what people must do in order to achieve the highest degree of glory.
Tell me, if you made a poor choice, one day and realized because of that poor choice, even though you had multiple opportunities to fix it (repent), and you didn't, that you were left out of a banquet with all your loved ones and had to spend the rest of your life alone, would that not make you feel like you were living in hell?
That is what I propose to you is what you call being "forced to love God." He just knows, because He is perfect, what you need to do in order to be "saved."
Just like any teacher, if you spend your time in class, ignoring the teachings, when the final exam comes - you are gonna fail. Doesn't matter how much the teacher loves you. In fact, a loving teacher wouldn't simply give you the credit because they love you. They would allow you to learn from your choices.
Like many, if not most, apologists, Brown speaks as though he is delivering a sermon. He wants to influence the emotions, not the intellect, of the audience.
Wow. Bart really took the gloves off for this one.
He has said many times it was the question of suffering that actually drove him away from Christianity/theism. A pretty deep nerve is touched here.
Sage Bias you think he took the gloves off? I think he always holds back for unknown reasons. Likely self serving reasons. This guy needed dealt with much more strongly.
@@Sharetheroad3333 I don't think his reasons are self-serving. It seems to me that Bart A) Respects his debate opponents as fellow scholars, even when he dislikes or disagrees with them, and B) Understands or at least believes that his opponents hold their views for reasons which they in turn genuinely believe. Remember, Bart grew up as a fundamentalist. He knows what it feels like to believe in the Bible incredibly strongly, he simply discovered that his former beliefs were inaccurate and ill-informed.
After he used his loved ones as examples I would be a bit irritated myself.
Something about lowering the people around you to an example just seems wrong to me.
I try to be obscure in identity to the people I know who have suffered or have experienced something embarrassing.
I'm not trying to get people to pity me or compel them to respect my points
@@gibbcharron3469 "Bart grew up as a fundamentalist". I think you will find he grew up as a Anglican and had his head tuned at University.
*Only man of understanding among the Christian* learn the wisdom of your words Prof Bart Ehrman.. I can feel your love for your brothers and sisters.
It is amazing to me that somehow Michael Brown knows so much about what God thinks and what God wants. Meanwhile God is remarkably silent about suffering, natural disasters, disease, and cruelty. What is with cancer in young children. "There's a lot about God we don't know." I'd say we know nothing about God. We are trying to find out, via science and math, but God hasn't bequeathed that knowledge. Loving caring God my @ss!
What to expect from a guy who gets mad about eating an apple?
@Jose Riquelme
Saved and forgiven? From what actually?
@Jose Riquelme
And why should I trust a carpenter who cannot even remove a couple of nails?
@Jose Riquelme Saved and forgiven ffrom what? You people talk crap.
@Jose Riquelme It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -that nasty pagan Aristotle
Bart is one of the many people who answered many questions I had been asking for years to pastors. never getting a satisfactory answer. he is brilliant. I left Christianity and went to Judaism. they are much more honest than Christianity. However,I am finding myself discontent with a few of their teachings. Too rabbinical ..So I continue to watch all these theologians and learn. Thank You Bart Ehrman
marsha woods
I empathize with everything you say in your comment. If I may, I would like to explain how I have reconciled this situation in my life. First, I have not dismissed Yeshua, as Judaism would have it; but, I no longer see him as Messiah as Christians do, and certainly don't worship him as God, as too many Christians do. Somewhat like Islam, but without the secular influence, I see Yeshua as the prophet like Moses that Moses, himself, spoke about in Deut. 18:15. You can find the many ways Yeshua was "like" Moses on the net, but "the" way he was like Moses was that he taught the law--except, he taught the spiritual version of the law. Guidelines for these "spiritual laws" are found throughout the Sermon on the Mount where Yeshua taught for example that, on a spiritual level, to be angry with your neighbor was equal to murder and to lust in your heart was equal to rape. He sums up these spiritual laws in Matthew 22:36--40 (c.f. Mk. 12:30--34; Lk. 10:25--28) which is an amalgamation of Deut. 6:5 and Lev. 19:18. See also the connection to the Golden Rule found in Mt. 7:12. This spiritual aspect of the law is what I find missing in Judaism: They don't necessarily do something nice for someone out of an innate love for others; they do it more because that's what is expected/required. I want to add that because of my own studies and the help of Dr. Ehrman I don't put a lot of stock in NT transmission, translation, or interpretation but I do think there is truth, like these examples, to be found in it.
Marsha check out Buddhism, I find it to be the best religion for logic. Buddhism can't answer the "random" suffering that is talked about here though. It focuses on things that govern our personal suffering by giving us ways to address that part.
I only recently found Dr. Ehrman's stuff and find it quite interesting for the same reasons you listed. I had questions that were not answered satisfactorily. I rejected the theology for high level moral reasons. Dr. Ehrman has helped me better understand parts on the Bible that are related to history. 99% of believers don't know this stuff but preach like we can trust it word for word.
I think we all search for answers. We really need to understand the historical aspects. You can still choose to believe whatever but at least understand the details of the history and you can understand why some might not trust fundamentalism.
Shopping for a ~religion~ the way you shop for shoes SMH. "I want one that looks good on me....or one that allows my Favorite Vice....or appeals to my limited sense of 'logic'...."
My favorite one: "Judaism turned out to be too, well...... (wait for it).......Rabbinical". Now, who'da thunk it?!
@@drpooky70 How can the Dalai Lama's be enlightened when they have to be taught everything all over again after being 'reborn? If they are reincarnations of Buddha himself why don't they come back knowing everything about Buddhism?
@@hippiekarl7 I know, right. Itching ears...
Great job Bart.
I never seen you so passionate
Barth Ehrman is a legend
I've come to the conclusion that believers are only concerned about themselves. they want to believe that they will be ok and will win favour with their god, leading to an eternity in heaven. Suffering of others they can interpret any way they choose and do mental gymnastics to justify it - as long as they're ok and feel they're special to their god.
believers care about themselves but also others
But your God is powerless to intervene. Can you think why that is? This omniscient, omnipotent being who, presumably, sheds a tear himself, makes no effort to intervene. The Christian God is an aberration, a myth, a superstition, who belongs in the past. The reason he doesn't intervene is that he's not there!
When you create something from nothing... you can do whatever you want..PERIOD
Well your god doesn't ,cause he Could do all the things,without braking a sweat.
So So So True !👍🏼
Eternal punishment for finite crimes is immoral.
At the end, Dr. Brown said that human suffering is "Bart's problem"; that Dr. Ehrman is tormented and losing sleep over the loss of his faith, and that the Bible is the answer. And yet, at the beginning of his presentation, Dr. Brown said of his wife, presumably a devout believer in God, "Many a night she cries herself to sleep over the pain of the human race." So apparently the bible has not even given his own wife an answer to the problem of suffering.
I took one look at Michael and knew I was going to have to fast forward to when Bart speaks
Bart is an eloquent and moving speaker. He quotes the scriptures frequently. Michael, in his first repost to Bart, is anecdotal and, I think, rather pathetic. This is a shark versus minnow debate - and there's no doubting who is the shark. Thank you for posting this and allowing us to enjoy the debate.
This is the short, 'Ehrman's Cut' version of an over 3hr debate; he got creamed even *worse* in the full, 'real' version. It says a lot about Dr. Ehrman's noted 'narcissism' and ~pride~ that he couldn't bring himself to post it as it happened....
@@hippiekarl7 Where can that be found?
hippiekarl7 show it
You know even the ten children you replace cannot replace the first ten children.
An "all-knowing" god that needs to run tests to know the results of something should have been a part of the argument.
all knowing.. period! we are not period! you think you know better or could have done a better job?
our school teachers gave us exams to pass while knowing with certainty that some students will fail and others will certainly win. yet exams were programmed so there would not be a feeling of injustice.
testing somebody does not mean we don't know what he gonna do. it purpose is to show to everyone his level of righteousness. So there would not be any complain
Crickets...
point is that we live out earning results with free will & justice and being truthful or as the wrong doers are , liars. atheists built no civilizations and all Prophets peace and blessings on them are Muslims, previous true religions changed point to Islam the only preserved faith, so humanity as a whole testifies Islam is true!
@@Breadz- Before creation, when there was no one but God, what was there to know and how could God have all knowledge eternally? I think this is predicated on the really stupid idea that time is a thing one can be outside of... Time is a measurement of changing relationships... there is no outside of this... there is no living past nor living future, only the eternal now. Past is memory and future is anticipation.
According to most measures the world is improving in many ways. Science has extended our life expectancy, increased food production, cured diseases despite being held back by religion for centuries. Marginalized peoples also would argue that as secularism has increased their suffering has decreased. On a side not I find it odd that Dr. Earhman had a bible and quoted directly from while Dr Brown did not and realied on anecdotes.
despite the suffering occurring today statistics and facts show humanity has made a constant, albeit slow, progress. Increase in lifespan, decreased infant mortality, advances in treating disease, more democracies than ever, international response to disasters, etc. I attribute this not to a god, but to social evolution - selection of behaviors which benefit the "fittest"
phenyl alanine
More people live in poverty than nearly ever.
God blesses us when we turn to Jesus, be like Him which is moral but also looking for ways to find how the world works and take care of each other
The 5 seconds it took me to read the 4 Noble Truths of Buddhism explained more about suffering than the 20 years I spent banging my head against the wall with christianity
Quoting Job to explain god is a nice guy, not responsible for suffering: the irony.
Idiocy
I love Bart's rant at about 2 hours in, the closing. Brilliant and you go Bart !!
Around the 54 minute mark, if we're being criticized for allowing suffering that *WE* as people can prevent, then how much more should God, who is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, be criticized! He could easily stop all suffering.
Michael Brown mistook the lectern for a pulpit. He delivered a sermon at us, instead of making an argument for us.
Amen to that brother.....
+Ian Arbues Can you pay attention to the argument instead of the volume of his voice? That'd the point which you apparently missed.
Raising your voice and getting emotional about a subject doesn't necessarily mean it's a 'ploy' or some sort of 'cheapness'. Personalities are different, and I find it actually settling that people like Bart Ehrman can, and does, get emotional about it.
When you are debating against someone who doesn't debate and present arguments, only lectures a sermon with unsubstantiated proclamations of fact, when it's really just preaching.
Chris I agree about Bart Ehrman and the humanity of his demeanour. It is obvious that he is a real caring person... he cares about truth, and he cares about people... that they shouldn't be misled. The other guy is just a cardboard-cutout evangelist puffed up on his own self importance.
Ehrman sounded a bit upset or angry and, perhaps, is bitter at the death of his Dad. Not only that, Ehrman sounded really preachy, also.
Torturing someone in the lake of fire is the most suffering a human will ever go through and that's from god so I dont understand how is there a debate about this
This is the most passionate I've ever seen Dr. Erhman in and I've watched every video on his channel as of 11/12/2020
Why does Michael Brown think that Bart Ehrman (or anyone else) can't serve the needs of the poor unless he deprives himself of whatever pleasures he can afford? Someone once said, "No poor man has ever given me a job." Or, as Judaism teaches, we should never give away so much that we become needy ourselves.
Love being on this site with other thinking folks, not afraid to reason together or even to joke.
Ehrman is barely taking the gloves off. I wonder what Brown's answer would be to "What is your take on Childhood cancer?" or "Why does God get to decide what is sinful?"
Why don't you check out his youtube channel? You can even phone in to his radio show or ask him in the youtube livestream chats.
Ahmen brother Bart, tell it like it is! Spread the "truth".
Brown uses the standard of self-sacrifice to judge his view to Bart's. I would suggest that unhappy people are ultimately unable to alleviate the suffering of others. Our first obligation is to ourselves -- to seek the things that make us well and happy. Having done that, we are in a position to do good for others with no hidden agenda.
Jesus said to seek first the kingdom of heaven. I think maybe he was wiser than you.
@@GillAgainsIsland12 All what Jesus may have said is ancient HEARSAY.
I know you wrote this long ago, and think you make a good point, but I also think some depressed people can find meaning in helping others. I know when I am depressed helping others makes me feel useful and good. Granted some people are so depressed they can’t do much of anything, but there’s a spectrum of happiness and find meaning and happiness in helping others.
I don’t think you necessarily meant the opposite, just wanted to point this out.
This is one of the professional debate I saw in UA-cam.
I know I'm late to the party here, but the irony that is inescapable in this particular debate is how steeped in scripture and Biblical knowledge the skeptic and nonbeliever is, and in contrast, how much less the believer knows about the very book he claims to base his entire belief system upon. There's something to be said for that I think.
I really appreciate these videos. They help with my understanding of the Bible and why I learned a long time ago that Christianity is cruel and I want nothing to do with the things it teaches.
"My grads are hedonist" I Love You Bart!!
Michal: You can't say that God caused the Haiti earthquakes. Just cause god punished Israel doesn't mean he uses earthquakes elsewhere.
Also Michael: God caused earthquakes before mankind in preparation of mankind's sin. He's going to use earthquakes to punish mankind.
The mental gymnastics here are laughable.
They found that there are marsquakes. Check out the article: ‘Marsquakes’ Could Shake Up Planetary Science
No matter how brilliant Dr. Ehrman is and how he connects the dots the christians only response is "but my mommy told me jesus loves me".
love Bart Ehrman!!
He's the best! *^_^*
@@JohnStopman the best at always being owned!
Feeding people from India is more important than giving them a bible.
sooo... almost forgot that this was a debate after hearing Micahel preach
Right! Pathetic. The bar is on the ground.
I've seen lots of debates like this and *every single one* of the christian supporters started preaching at some point. Every. Single. One of them. It's like they can't just stick to what is explicitly in the books and have to inject their own particular brand of church flavor into it.
And Job lived happily ever after. Lol
Brown is right that people of faith do much good, but he fails to aknowledge that it is people of many faiths, not only his.
He never denied that.
@@GillAgainsIsland12 Then it's not relevant to Christianity, because people do a lot of good regardless of their religion or lack of religion. And people do a lot of evil regardless of their religion or lack of religion. And, of course, even if all Christians did all "good" and no "evil" that still wouldn't make Christianity true.
I haven't watched it but I'm so excited to!!!
According to Brown," God is being merciful to us sinners for not making it worse on us..." Explain that to the 5 year old with Cancer at St. Jude. Explain that to the mother who lost her son, daughter-in-law and 3 grandbabies to a drunk driver. Explain that to the children with Polio, Muscular Dystrophy, and dozens of other maladies...… I do not buy one word of it. If Christianity is true and God is love, then He has a spilt personality.
Drunk driver is the result of free will, no problem there.
Read Romans 3:1-10 charging God ist answered there
x-pop one i think god could have left the other victims out of the driver's free will consequeces. If he did, then he'd be a good god rather than an indifferent or bad god.
Well cancer is the result of humans ...think Monsanto. Drunk driving is also human's fault. Not sure about the other stuff. But it's largely man's own fault
Mr Von, Now Can you stop yourself from Dying and your family? Can you stop one of your friends or family members or anyone to avoid Accident? Can you stop Hatred? Can you stop lusting? Can you stop being Lying? Can you stop Being Hating? Can you stop Being thinking bad things? Can you stop Disease around the world? Can you stop Innocents around the world being killed and tortured? The root cause is Sin and Evil exists in Humans, How can you address this sin? Sin leads to Death and suffering. However There is a solution out of this Sin, God willingly took up death upon himself, to give you Eternal life. He did Intervene for all, Now you have to Turn to him and repent and accept this sacrifice and lead a holy life.
No one can escape death in this world. No one can escape suffering, Tell me one family , who did not lose their loved ones. Death is one thing that Will surely come to us. Now, what is the wider significance of addressing the Sin, which allows Evil to prosper? That's Why God has provided the Solution by Showing the Pure Love shedding his Holy Blood for you and the 5 Year Old Cancer Patient, God Gives Eternal Life and Eternal Bodies Promised, where there will be no pain and Suffering, No Tears?
I understand that you raising valid point about Suffering(Cancer Kid,Drunk Driver Killing) But Don't just Talk Empty words when you could not stop it and you are not God, Please think and Consider, Why God Chose to die on the Cross. Why? Why? The Creator of this heaven and Earth?
Dr Erhman too will die but never offer hope and save the children dying? He did not take up the Cross and Win the Death, He is not Holy.Whom will you consider and give the benefit of Doubt?
But Jesus is the example gives me Hope, that God did something, He can and did Give his life for me and won the Death for me , so that I can have Eternal Life, Period!!!!
You never cease to amaze me
What Dr. Ehrman got right in highlight is asking Brown if he believes god punishes those who sin and how can you tell. Brown really had no sufficient answer to that and I think it speaks volumes to blame the stated victim as some sort of moral monster. Like what atrocities could a child commit to deserve death,? All of the children? It just keeps going on and on in the head and that's probably the best emotional argument one could give.
Funny how the audio cuts out when Bart is speaking. It's almost like they don't want their illusions shattered.
Best debate I have watched so far.
Alhamdulilah!!!
I really wouldn't call this any sort of debate
Dr Ehrman wins this hands down.
@ lauren smith... only to those capable of using reason... I heard many people in the audience clapping after Brown made ridiculous and absurd statements and lame excuses for god, the bible and his "beliefs"
@@carlpen850 people who are NOT able to reason are the ones that think Ehrman won this debate....This was a decimation....Ehrman is just taking advantage of atheists ignorance in the matter of Justice and morality
@@jeffgeorge9075 What concepts are we missing? Proportional punishment maybe? A basic sense of fairness among defendants and the right to stand trial for a crime? The ideas of Normative vs Analytical jurisprudence? An evolutionary beneficial drive to cooperate with one another?
Please explain Jeff.
His argument kind of falls apart when you consider that God put in motion the original sin, not man.
Does this book address the necessity of a Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden, or the necessity of making the penalty of eating from it damnation? Or the necessity of making original sin hereditary? It's not hard to imagine a world where these things don't exist.
Could you give me a brief summary on how it applies to what i said? I'm hesitant to drop $40 on a book.
original sin was created by humans
Baji Scipio Dārayav Aurelius Julian Venizelos Nalwa
the bible and all its immorality was created by humans....
God told them NOT to eat it, are you daft?
Michael Brown's views are disgusting.
Very and unfortunately extremely common
I realize that that's your opinion, but that's a rude opinion to have about someone else's opinion.
Well he did attack a cop after robbing a store...
Imo he’s waaayyyyyy better than most people who consider themselves fundamentalists, particularly folks who could be described as modern American fundamentalists... I’ve known MANY growing up, and listening closely to his answers, and particularly his approach to the Bible, and I gotta say, relatively speaking, I find his perspectives pretty tolerant and tolerable. Maybe if I listened to him more, I’d change my mind, but based on this alone, he doesn’t seem like a bad dude.
Some things make sence , expl. Job
I became an atheist for the same reason Mr Ehrman did, and in this debate he used a good example to show God is not either existent or good, I think a better example was Adam who sinned and because of him the rest of us don't have "perfection" obviously much more unjust than Job, I think, for we didn't have a shot at perfection as Adam did, so as a result we die! How's that just? Someone sinned and someone else suffers!
And Brown s offers of hope, are things that usually cult leaders and recruiters take advantage of.
2:07:40 The nerve of this guy! He gives Dr. Ehrman a gift he probably doesn't want, then takes the opportunity to praise his own altruism and take a not-so-subtle shot at Bart. It must have taken a lot of restraint not to throw it back in his face!
Or it could be, you know, a slightly feeble joke. You must be a lot of fun at parties ;)
Its obviously just a joke, he isn't taking a shot, he is saying that bart wouldn't give him a something that says everything is possible through God.
I respect the views of everyone. That being said being stripped of hope sucks... Like I have to be on one side or the other? I can be in the middle. Depending.....
Unless you're brainwashed, brown's logic is basically this: God sometimes helps, causes harm, punishes, sometimes he doesn't, sometimes it's people and the earth. Basically name something and that's a reason or excuse and to him it's never a flaw of the faith. Ugh. I met this guy in person and the Christian love is so ingenuine
Ehrman describing the Book of Job: 33:01
“I find that frankly to be the most offensive passage in the Bible”: 34:37
The first response of Job's friends: 1:17:06 (specifically: 1:17:58)
My question for Christians: What objective standard did you use to determine that God is good?
roman empire : welcome to our business
christianity : i'll join with you
We suffer because stuff happens. Here's the thing: Forget about the Bible. Forget about the mythical God. Just give of yourself. Help your fellows. That's the essence of Humanism.
But that's your subjective, piece of cells and flesh, subjective opinion isn't it?
Why forget the Bible?
@@patrickoconnor9700 Don't forget its literary and cultural value. Treat it like we treat the Odyssey or Epic of Gilgamesh today. Entertaining tales with commentary on the human condition.
If the evils in the world, like hurricane and tsunamis are a result of the fall of man, how about hurricanes in other planets? Did man's fall on earth also cause hurricanes and earthquakes in those planets?
Great point!
I am an enthusiastic Ehrman fan! I love it when he gets fired up and "preaches" about the inadequacies of a biblical world view. His knowledge of the bible and biblical history is unassailable. Smug theists like Brown don't have a chance. It's satisfying to hear him set them straight on their assumptions that atheists/agnostics don't have hope or meaning. That really ticked him off! It has the same effect on me.
I pray for you...God is.
@@savedby_grace6110 Praying doesn't work. Grow up. It's not the middle ages anymore
John Doe
You deny the experience of billions like us ?
1:25:50 "Do you really think that human beings can change without divine help?" Of course. That's how we've done it so far. No god ever ended a war. It wasn't God who gave his life on the fields of Europe in two world wars. It wasn't God that signed civil rights legislation. So yes, we think human beings can change, based on verifiable recorded history. We should set our sights on being always improved, even in tiny ways.
God can work through people for good.
@@patrickoconnor9700 How do you tell the difference between God acting through someone and no God at all?
1:44:50 the fact that he is comfortable with god letting this happen and not stopping it when it began to save people from these horrible moments makes me disgusted
The best line -> I'm not talking about fairy tales here, I'm talking about a living God!
How can they take themselves serious? I mean really! How?
Because God exists whether you believe it or not
@@Nexus-ub4hs which god?
In this debate I side with Ehrman. What Mr Brown is doing wrong here is that he is looking at the Old Testament texts with the christian perspective not with the proper Jewish Theology. Those books were written hundreds of years after the event happened and the people of the time tried to understand why bad things happened. That's why you get different perspectives in the bible and Christians for their convenient ways leave them out.
What I do not like also is the fact they use faith as a way to condition and manipulate people's minds during their weakest moments. It doesn't even make sense that in order to live forever, you have to be tested for it.
Good debate. Respect to both but Bart is the man.
Re: Christian assertion that man and societies cannot have morality, it is only present through believe in god. How would he explain the morality and moral societies that currently exist on earth which know nothing about Christian belief?
I think the real dilemma is the lack of consistency that comes about from drawing moral values from something as volatile as societal consensus. It's not for lack of evidence either on the theists' part: Stalin, Mao, and Hitler (people seem to be unaware of this but he actually thought Christianity was evil and remade and redistributed the Bible to fit his narrative of the Jews not being human) are all perfect examples of exactly what happens to people and the states they control once the state becomes the source for their religious iconography and authority. You can also see it in Islam and older Catholicism when church and state are not separated.
I think the major issues with religion arise when they become legally embedded with the state, because then it leaves the culture completely vulnerable to all sorts of mind-games and brainwashing. However i do also realize having a culture with minimal to no judaeo-christian values is also not something I wish to live with, as China seems to be going through intense and quick sinicization again and Christians seem to be one of the front liners defending freedom of speech.
All this being said, I should mention that I am christian so I do have a bias for my faith, but I do admit we play defensive, particularly with the idea of suffering and eschatological issues relating to Hell and the after life as a whole. All that aside, I think societies are generally better off having judaeo-christian values deeply embedded in their cultures.
@@bd1230 « You can also see it in Islam and older Catholicism when church and state are not separated »
Yeah, except no.
First of : in none of those cases was the state the source of anything, the leader was, and the ideology was, not the state.
Secondly : even in the case of Islamic theocracies and christian theocracies (which weren’t all Catholics, there were orthodox and Protestants as well), the state was still not the source of anything, the church was still the only one who purveyed meaning and iconography And authority.
Thirdly : the reason why issues arise when you embed religion into law is precisely that it’s no longer « volatile ».
Religions don’t change anything to the volatility of values, except in the worst sense. Religions rarely do anything other than enshrine into a code of law (wether the informal social consensus or the dictates of the state) the primitive bigotry of our ancestor, and the lack of compassion born from times to hard to have any.
Actually, religions can also be caught into that volatility of societal consensus based values. Compassionate and reasonable men and women have been working hard for two to four hundred years to make morality progress. Some, many actually may have believed that the drive of their efforts was their faith. But truth is, we know better : we have a thousand years of history to prove that their faith has nothing to do with it. The actual main driver of moral progress was precisely the attempt to decouple morality from religion and mere social consensus, and ground it into better, more accessible foundations, and more stable foundations : reason, and empathy, and self interest, which lead to fairness, justice, compassion, etc.
« i do also realize having a culture with minimal to no judaeo-christian values is also not something I wish to live with »
Tell me, would you prefer to live in Puritan England, where society was filled with judaeo Christian values to the brim, or in... any modern western country, whose laws are as far removed from the Bible as can be ? And just to make things fair : in my hypothetical, technology is about the same, only the values change, so you’d have the same quality of life in regards to easy access to water, food, medicine, etc, the only things that changed is that one is extremely christian, the other is a society that seeks to get answers about the material world through the scientific method, instead of praying, that lets you be gay, straight, or whatever else, as long as you don’t breach your partners’ consent, and that they are over 15 at least, if you are yourself over 18, especially well over 18, that lets you be white, black, or whatever else without (legal) discrimination, or very few, that lets you be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or atheist, or whatever, as long as you don’t directly physically harm other people through your religious practice, etc.
Let’s make it simple : do you prefer a society where people will pray for you if you get sick, or a society where people will search for a cure ? And no cheap escape like « I’d prefer both », I’m not talking about having both, I’m talking about having only one of them.
1:09:26 Hell yes! Tell him Dr. Ehrman!
Wow. Bart can really debate. Very passionate and effective (if a bit too yelly). Boom!
he does yell alot! lol
well he was a teacher for a while so maybe he had a rowdy class lol
Thank you Dr. Micheal Brown for Defending our almighty God. Godbless you
@@kasandrapagan5119 lol, grow up kasandra. I'm sure you mean well but come on, it's 2019 now. Christianity is false and immoral.
@@JohnDoe-ov9ib Prove it.
If Satan is responsible for the evil in the world as the Christian says here....isn’t this exactly contrary to their assertion that man has free will- to choose either righteousness on earth or sin; will be judged and will go to either heaven or eternal hell?
Also, Christians believe that a sinner,no matter how savage their sin, as long as they eventually take Jesus as their personal saviour ( being cleansed by the blood of Jesus)will be absolved of all sin, whereas the person wronged who hasn’t made the same commitment to all-loving,crying,knowing god, will go to hell for eternity. Convoluted thinking over and over and over.
So satan is responsible for the sin in the world, and humans have been born with a sinful nature. But ever since the fall, the earth is under satan's control. He has been given the reigns to the earth and is allowed to tempt the people on the earth.
Your second paragraph is a good observation, and christians also have a lot of debate with that, but ultimately, it is agreed on that God judges the heart, so if they are truly sorry, they will be saved, but that is very hard for us as humans to understand, because we cannot see intentions or the heart.
I understand if you don't agree, but I hope this helps you see it from the point of view of a follower of christ.
The most horrendous point by Dr. Brown? That the majority of Holocaust survivors were sprititually ENRICHED by the their experiences--thereby providing adequate answer to their suffering. What about the spiritual enrichment of the millions who were tortured and died?
Bart killed him!
No. His god did it.
Met dr. Brown. He's as crazy as his Theology. It's shaped him
I wish they could improve the audio quality of these debates (in general).
Pain and suffering, like fear, is just god's way of having fun with us
How is a grown man like Dr. Brown able to spew forth such credulous nonsense?
Debate starts w/ Brown @ 5:05
Dr. Erhman starts @ 25:35
Dr. Brown is giving a sermon to the believer; I don't see him proving that the bible provides an adequate answer--only that bible offers promises of the wonderful to come.
So God loved us so much that he kiled his son for us to save us from his wrath.. yet he's still gonna fry many of us in hell. So his sacrifice was for nothing he just hates us anyway
it seems more like its just so he can look the other way. Like it gives us a chance. But before we had no chance. Im just saying i dont know what that means more than he is no one to take lightly. I mean its really scary. So either you believe cause you are scared, not taking any chances. Or you just ignore it for not being true at all
I wish more debates did the "write your question down" thing. No preaching from the audience.
At 1:40:22 Michael Brown appears to argue that the Bible's answer to the problem of suffering is that the Bible does not have an adequate answer to the problem of suffering, and thus people should wait for one in the future. Michael appears to find *that* answer satisfactory, such that the claim of the Bible that "this book does not provide an adequate answer to the problem of suffering" is somehow itself an adequate answer. Of course, this is from someone who doesn't believe in contradictions...
Btw, who knew you could squeeze so many terrible arguments into a single debate?
So far we've seen:
- Because I said so
- It'll get better eventually (ignoring why it got worse in the first place)
- Don't question God
- God punishes people, except for when he doesn't
- God intervenes, except for when he doesn't (a.k.a prayer works great for me, but not so well for starving children)
- I need to believe in God not because it's true, but because I'm afraid not to (without God there's no purpose/hope/kittens/rainbows/whatever)
- Only people of faith help others (really?)
- Sometimes bad events have good outcomes (and completely ignoring the reverse scenario)
I have a question: If God can magic it all better in the future, why didn't he do that to start with? I know people say that suffering builds character etc, but why is that necessary? Does that mean God never built character? It just doesn't make any sense.
Mr. Ehrman, you were brilliant. thank you for sharing this video!
Finally, as is almost always the case, Dr. Brown spends too much time opining on what's wrong with Bart, and not enough time making good points for his beliefs.
I feel for Ehrmen. You can point to the stupidity of a position and if the retort is "well I'm just stupid enough to believe it" where do you go?
M.B speaks as if he have just come from heaven, atleast answering a question even thou it not the question, i like Bart Ehrman's talking in a manly and earthly manner.👍🙏yes and we should speak earthly during our time on earth.
The milky way galaxy is 1000 light years across. If you were at the edge of the known universe and looked back at the milky way galaxy it would look very tiny. To think that God created the universe for a small group of people in a remote region of the earth is insane.
Mr. Brown is very selective in his history of christianity.
When I was an Assemblies of God minister for 30 years I held a great deal of respect for Mr. Brown. However, after my departure from Christianity I believe that Mr. Ehrman holds the truth. There are far too many errors, inconsistencies, and contradictions within the Bible and within Christianity.
always band wagon entry, send Barf Earlman all the money and praise, ya nut-sac