The 17,000 Year Old European Dragon Ritual, and its ancient mythological origins
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- Опубліковано 20 тра 2024
- Within a number of caves in southern France skeletons have been found, surrounded by art work, that suggest these skeletons were let here by humans, and for a particular purpose. For here we may have evidence of the oldest dragon ritual in Europe, depicting a dragon slaying myth.
We'll discuss the findings at montespan cave, the tuc d'audoubert bison and the tuc d'audoubert snake, and mythology of the Paleolithic period. And we can see if mythology unleashed a ritual.
*If you want to support my research and see behind the scenes work, watch my videos early, and other insights then please become a Patreon*: / crecganford
References
Fotenrose. Python: A Study of Delphic Myth and its Origins, 1959. p436-446
Fritz, Carole. Bégouën, Robert. 2009. Le sanctuaire secret des bisons. Il y a 14 000 ans dans la caverne du Tuc d’Audoubert. Somogy.
d'Huy, Julien. 2016. Première reconstruction statistique d’un rituel paléolithique : autour du motif du dragon
Leroi-Gourhan, André. 1965. Prehistoire de l‘art occidental, Paris, Mazenod
Marshack, Alexander. 1972. The Roots of Civilization : the cognitive beginning of Man’s first art, symbol and notation, New York, McGraw-Hill.
Chapters
==========
0:00 Introduction
0:47 First evidence of a ritual
1:39 The cave of Les Tuc d’Audoubert
2:13 The cave of Montespan
2:33 What were snakes doing there?
4:16 Hypothesizing that this was a Ritual
4:48 Not just a coincidence
6:50 Mythology guides Ritual
8:56 Paleolithic Mythology
11:24 The interpreting headless snake
14:54 And so ritual follows the Myth
15:40 Two Paleolithic European Mythological reconstructions
17:37 An Upper Paleolithic Proto Narrative from South West Asia
18:40 An Upper Paleolithic Proto Narrative from Europe
19:30 The ritual is mythology acted out
20:38 Looking at the archaeological evidence
22:23 The findings at Madeleine Cave
23:45 The Myth drawn on a Bone
26:06 Warrior Horses
28:23 And so is this an Upper Paleolithic Myth?
30:10 And so is this a 17,000 Year Old Dagon Ritual?
Are there any old rituals you would like to know more about?
Mesolithic labyrinth rituals from Scandinavia?
I would love your take on the evidence for human sacrifice in Ireland, Wales, Man, and Cornwall. Is it dubious? Is it real? Under what context might it have been used?
Seconding human sacrifice In the UK
The Minotaur and the human sacrifice ritual linked to him
Cleansing rituals
Regeneration rituals.
My interest is cleaning of soul, more associated with regeneration, not exorcism.
And regeneration associated with restoring stability in environment.
Crecganford my apologies to you if these topics are well covered in history of your posts.
I'm new here.
My favourite "dragon ritual" is stepping into my local pub, 'The George and Dragon', walking up to the humourless, sourfaced lady behind the bar, and asking "is George in?".
Is the lady behind the bar the metaphorical dragon?
She does control the waters of life.
😆😆😆
that poor woman
Is that the old one in London? The hipster place that has a Jazz night?
In Poland we have a legend about the dragon living in a cave under the royal castle in Kraków, former Polish capital. The oldest written version is from the 12th century and tells about a dragon terrorizing the population of Kraków, forcing them to sacrifice cattle to him. The king's sons were unable to defeat the dragon in battle, so they fed him a cattle skin stuffed with smoldering sulfur, causing his fiery death. After that younger son killed his brother in order to be able to inherit the throne and told his father that he had died fighting the dragon. The dragon cave under the castle can be visited to this day by tourists and in front of it there is a fire-breathing statue of a dragon.
Thank you for sharing that story, I love hearing these local tales, so fascinating.
So cool!
@@Crecganford greetings, the headless bear could mean that the starsighn bear was with its head below the horizont, indicater of an earthcrust displacement, anothe sky?????
@@asashoryuLapisphilosophorum nah
The myth of St. George slaying the Dragon is at least as old as from the 11th century AD in Cappadocia, but even in Pre-Christian times the myth existed: Perseus and Andromeda f.ex…
Even my hometown, Holstebro, Jutland, Denmark, ended up with this motif in the City Coat of Arms, apparently through a fusion of a coat of arms depicting how the city bridge was defended - a crowned knight on horseback with his lance levelled for combat and the myth of St. George with its root in Christianity and Humane Care…
Safe passage over the river, Storåen, was valuable for the cattle trade, which was a major part of Jutland's export and the crowned knight may have signified that the King supported the armed defence of the trade route.
I can imagine people in the tribe being told this stories deep in the cave by an elder, lighted by torches, with the sound of running water around. It would have felt overwhelming and otherworldly.
This series about dragons keeps getting better and better. thank you so much
I only have one more dragon story right now and I may save that. But will be doing a couple of shows on other UA-cam channels talking about dragons soon.
Oh I love that imagery, and also the cave paintings flickering in the torch light and the sound of the elder's voice enhanced by the cave. No wonder these people believed in such awesome tales.
On mushrooms more like
@@jednmorf u
In romanian folklore there are many stories about this young and handsome man (Făt-Frumos) who fights a dragon-like creature ('zmeu' or 'balaur') because he kidnapped one or three princesses and made them his wifes. With the great help of his wise and magic horse and sometimes of other animals or mythological beings, the hero reaches the Other Realm (Tărămul Celălalt), chops the dragon's head or heads, marry the girls and they live happily ever after.
'Zmeu' is a scale-covered humanoid with one or three heads or even nine in some stories, and has a snake tale, legs, arms, the ability to create and use artifacts such as weapons, and to ride a horse, and has the desire to marry young girls. Sometimes he appears in the sky altough he has no wings, and spits fire, or has the ability to change form.
'Balaur' is a more serpent-shaped creature, with three, seven or nine heads. In some stories it has wings. It kidnapps young princesses, and sometimes lives in a well or a lake. It can be summoned by a wizard (Solomonar), who then rides and use the Balaur to controll the weather. Also when two Balauri meet and fight in the air, there ensues various meteorological damages.
Both Zmeu and Balaur die only by getting all their heads chopped off.p
I can now link that stories to your neolithic dragon mith as there are many similarilies.
Thank you for watching and sharing such a fantastic story, I do love reading about these things.
Hey neighbour :) in Bulgaria we also have Zmei for a giant dragon or serpent
Hey, Zmeu really sounds similar to Croatian/Serbian "Zmaj" which is literal translation to Dragon in English
Kindly have a look at the semitic dragon or Arabian dragon.
✡ 🐉 🐍. It was used for magic rituals. 🎩
@@multivitamin425 Zmey/zmej is almost the exact equivalent of the english concept of a great "serpent" as a dragon.
I always enjoy how this channel holistically covers mythology/folklore and archeology.
Thank you, it's my aim to do this, and in a good amount of detail too.
@@Crecganford Hello Jon , I was listening and enjoying this recent video when it reminded me of Rattlesnakes in the south west of the US. I was working on cattle ranches in the south west states in the 1980's. Did you know that when you severe the head of the rattlesnake the body keeps moving, the rattle keeps rattling and the head keeps snapping. The indigenous people of the area all stated to me that the body and head of the snake had to be buried separately or the snake could come back to life. I thought it kinda flows with this video and I wanted to share this with you. Keep up the great work, and a great weekend.
Dude, I wish I knew this when I was teaching Beowulf. So much of what the hero does mirrors Indo-European myth.
It would, and I want to produce a video on Beowulf myself, that story is so very good.
@@Crecganford Really looking forward to that.
@@Crecganford Cannot wait!
This also reminds me of the way that Yahweh is supposed to kill the dragon (satan) in Christianity. Yahweh was traditionally a Canaanite god related to storms, and Satan takes on the form of a dragon in the book of revelation. Christians and Jews also have Leviathan which is essentially a sea monster
I believe this is far pre-Indo-European. Paleolithic peoples of 17,000 BC would be even before the Anatolian neolithic farmers spread west into European heartland in 7,000 BC thereabouts who were in turn supplanted by conquest and migration by the Indo-European Danubic culture only by around post-6,000 BC at the earliest in this region, probably post-4,500. I'm no authority on the subject but that's my two-cents. It's interesting though to see this parallel evolution of beliefs and, who knows, maybe dragons of the European tradition come from this separate much earlier arriving autochthonous people! I can't recall any dragons in our understanding of Indo-European myth off-hand, with the sky father and the twin horse princes and all that, but my knowledge of that stuff just isn't there yet so idrk
I’m surprised how detailed and realistic the clay bison are. And in such good shape 😍
I know, it is amazing. I love discovering archaeological finds like this.
I clicked the thumbnail, wondering why that one bison was humping a rock.
Fascinating work as always. I always go back to Persian mythology and find interesting similarities between what you say and what has been recorded in Shahname. Besides the story of Zahhak/Azhidahak which is clearly a dragon figure usurping the throne, I remembered a curious case of Rostam and his superhero horse Rakhsh (meaning light) fighting and slaying a dragon on his seven-phase epic journey to set the captured shah free and it is Rakhsh who kills the dragon 🐉
I love hearing these stories, and so thank you for watching and sharing.
Crecganford has become a staple of my weekend viewings. Cannot thank you enough for the wonderful content, Jon!
And thank you for your support and for watching!
Incredible how much we can reconstruct from this ritual using other myths. I love this channel!
Thank you for watching, and your kind words.
It reminds me a lot of the philosophy behind the reconstruction of the proto-indoeuropean language. Very interesting, even if we'll never truly know the exact details or how correct we are.
@@kylewilliams8114 What we do know, and know very well, we can't walk into other peoples' caves and interpret their symbols for them. Even the caves of people who are alive today. That's how we know "this method" doesn't work.
Interesting. The mention of 'The Tain' pronounced "Toyne" is steeped in ancient Celtic mythology and is translated to 'The Cattle Raid of Cooley' from a time when wealth was measured in herds. If my memory is correct all the hero's battles take place at fords or river crossings. It is part of the Annals of Ulster and only survives today thanks to the early literate Christian monks who wrote them down. Their origins are unknown but considered to be ancient folklore by the time the Celts arrived in Ireland.
The Tain is one of my favourite stories, so many Indo-European motifs are hidden within it. I do touch on it in a number of my videos because of this.
A quick thought, the serpent has connections with the constellation Hyades. Often with the dragons head, Hyades, being wounded while attacking the foot or heel of a the hero, the constellation Orion. The constellation Eridanus (Jordan) the celestial river is located below and between Orion and The Hyades (and wider Taurus). This has relationships to the story of Adam, Moses and the Serpent staff as well as inability to cross the Jordan, Ra and the Serpent shaped as a dart, Thor and Hrungnir on the boat, among others. The Hyades are the “rainy” or watery constellation.
Yes, it seems to me that the constellations were created to align to myth, and so this would make sense.
The appearance of similar motifs in South American and Australian Aboriginal cultures suggests that some of our mythologies are a great deal older than is generally suspected, perhaps even originating in Africa more than a hundred thousand years ago. I'm particularly interested in any insight you may have regarding fire rituals and parables, such as those we find in the stories of Prometheus & Pandora and in some Siberian and Native American raven legends. Just about every culture has/had some kind of fire god, usually associated with cautionary tales about the reckless pursuit of power ("a dangerous servant and frightful master"), and the common threads running through them seem to indicate that we've been sharing these fables for as long as we've been human enough to gather around a hearth.
I haven't discussed fire motifs yet, but I have discussed about the origins of the dragon myth which touches on Australia and South Africa, it is the video I recommend at the end of this video and is really worth a watch if you haven't seen it yet.
Ancient north Eurasian belief
What is the significance of your profile picture, if you would be so kind as to share?
No … If it was in South Africa … it was imported from else where
Interesting that one man, Melanthios, cut his hair to triumph, but another man, Samson, lost his strength when his hair was cut.
I was always interested in the two dragons who fought in the Merlin tales. I assumed they were thought to cause earthquakes and toppled the castles built above. Of course I only read of this story as written by Mary Stewart.
I understand that even today, some Asian countries still construct dragon holes in tall buildings so that the wind dragon will not topple them. Which I consider to be at least partly ritual behavior.
I'm rewriting these into my own stories as a way to try to keep them alive. Keep up the good work, my friend! And thank you!
Thank you, and I wish you success in your endevours.
I hope all the research you are doing for this series is something you will be collating into a popular book on history and dispersal of dragon mythology.
In a few years I hope to release a couple of books talking about many of the things I have discussed on this channel.
The “fish” talked about in the art areactually symbols representing signs. Like chevrons on a Sargent, or stars on an admiral, they convey the meaning of social placeholder. There are many reoccurring symbols in the caves that use symbols that translate a message into the current occupier of the cave since most were used as shelters in winter but were mostly empty when times were good. They could’ve even be a shopping list traveling merchants that spoke a different language but recognized the universal symbols.
Yes, that means ancient man had a form of writing, and were in contact with other clans over vast distances.
Thank you for watching, and for your comment. But is that an opinion, or are you citing a peer-reviewed and credible academic source? In which case would you share that source as I am interested in all interpretations.
I have casually noticed a lot of "dragon guards a magical item usually involving knowledge" usually associated with some sort of knowledge tree. It's curious to see other dragon motifs.
Pretty sure ancient people had to deal with snakes while climbing trees to get the better fruit towards the top. I assure you most of these myths stem from completely mundane things
@@SevenPr1me the mundanity of myths makes them no less potent.
@@alethearia the potency you speak of is...purely imaginary
@@SevenPr1me The views of ones people can only be understood by them.
This really has some value in todays world, you’re doing a great work here
Thank you so much for watching, and for your kind words.
I’m sorry, but from a molehill of fact a mountain of surmise is developed. There is a massive jump from a small snake to a gigantic multi/headed monster.
@@robertmiller5258 Entertain this, this ritual and the myth of the Greek Hydra didn’t happen overnight. You’re forgetting the gigantic span of time and development this motif went through to arrive at where it is today in its various forms around the world. Simply saying that it looks like too big of a jump from this to that isn’t taking all the evidence into consideration. Also we don’t know what other contexts of this ritual have disappeared through time and erosion. The fact that two instances in two different places this was found says a lot about the possibility of this sort of ritual being done in this time period.
I love this channel. So we’ll researched and we can learn so much from our ancient ancestors. They were Homo sapiens - just as curious and creative and intelligent as we are - you can see that in these myths. And the routes to various permutations of myths including dragons, storm gods, snakes, floods seem so clear now. Fascinating. Thank you.
And thank you for watching and taking the time to comment such kind and interesting words.
This is amazing! The presents of the horses is extraordinary. This is long, long before the domestication of the horse. Now horses don't like poisonous snakes and will stomp them to death striking with there front feet. Here in America we have water snakes, cottonmouths and water moccasins. Both of these are deadly. It would be interesting to see if they could get any DNA off of the sacrificed snakes to see if they were indeed a poisonous species. But the horses are really important. About 6 months ago it came out that the current domesticated horses did not come from the horses that were first domesticated. These were the ancestors of the Przwalski Horse who moved to east and eventually let them run wild again. So they are beginning to try to figure out where the current horses came from. This bone may be an indication of it. Interestingly enough the spotted horses on the caves in Spain prove the existence of the Leopard gene that is present in several breeds currently. All of those breeds trace back to Spain. It is a recessive gene so it can hide for generations and crop up again if you are deliberately breeding for it. The snowy conditions would have favored that pattern for a camouflage. These horses are certain to be part of the answer to the puzzle. You should check out the people doing the work on the horse DNA. I think it may point them to places to search that will help them.
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment, it is very interesting, especially the origins of the horse and how they were used by our ancestors. Thank you for sharing.
I agree! I would much rather face a poisonous snake with a horse than a dog. I’ve seen horses trample cottonmouths and rattlesnakes in seconds! Growing up in Oklahoma even if I wasn’t riding my aunt and uncle always had a horse with me when I was in the field to protect me from snakes.
@@reverie6034 : Yes, the mongoose may be effective at fighting snakes, but that is only from speed, being able to out-range them is far more reliable.
It would be interesting if humans and horses occasionally worked together to fight against snakes before domestication. Even today, some of the hunter-gatherer tribes of the african Great Rift Valley only seriously fear snakes, not any of the other dangers of the area. It may well be that this common tendency is part of why humans domesticated horses so early.
While you were explaining, i remembered another such myth from the puranas/upanishads(which comes after vedas)... This isnt about Indra killing Vrtra, but its about Krishna(Vishnu) harming Kalinga. This myth is waaay younger and newer compared to the Vrtra slaying myth. I think the people adopted this myth when gods like shiva, vishnu and brahma were taking over the main head pantheon which consisted of indra before.. (Although Indra, Agni, Varuna and other gods are still there, they are only prayed during religious ceremonies... A local man(nowadays) does not pray to these gods, they mainly pray to the Trinity{shiva, vishnu, and sometimes brahma}), but we do know that long time ago, atleast according to the rig vedas, the ancient gods like Indra, Agni, etc were prayed to more
In this myth we see that a snake has taken control over this huge river, and anyone who drank from it died due to the snake's poison. The snake is depicted as having many heads. Krishna had enough of this snake, and went to slay it... He dove into the waters and came up to the surface while dancing on the many heads of the snake. The snake begged for krishna to stop dancing, and thats when krishna struck a deal with the snake to never enter the waters again, and therefore freeing the river!
Thank you for sharing this, I do love hearing these stories.
Very similar to the Greek myth of the Gorgon, of course.
I'm a Gael (Scots Irish) and we have a blue one eyed hag goddess with a protruding tongue who is triple in aspect and is the goddess of death.
She's called Cailleach in Scotland and Morrigan in Ireland.
Just thought that may be of any interest to any Hindus that may be reading this ;)
Thank you for promoting and discussing the beliefs of our ancestors and bringing them to life for our folk in these modern times. It is important to discuss the ways of our European forebears. Thank you again.
And thank you fro watching, and taking the time to comment.
I'm happy to see you have a production team. Congratulations. Takes off some of the stress of balancing this with the duties of teaching.
Hello! I have gained a lot of support recently and it does help, allowing me to outsource some tasks. But the research is still down to me, but I don’t mind, a cup of tea and a good book is a very happy place indeed :)
Absolutely love this channel. Thank you for the vids you keep on making!
And thank you for watching them!
What's incredibly interesting is in Welsh myth, the dragon is a representation if the people, who's home is located in the Eyri. The dragon essentially is a protector, and a being that holds all our strength. It's why the red dragon is on our flag, with the story coming from at least the middle ages.
Oh man, you have such good content but your voice is so soothing that I end up in a daze and don't remember a thing!
Ah, hence why you should drink a caffeine infused beverage, or watch the video a couple of times :) Thank you for watching, and for you comment.
The reccomendation of a cuppa, is more a prescription than a suggestion :D
Well said Jon! My wife would approve of the decapitation of snakes. She can't even look at a picture of one! I mentioned before the serpent Bakunawa in Visayan mythology. The moon-eating serpent that lives in the ocean. That one was never killed, and at least until recently people used to call out "Iuli kanamo ang among buwan" ("Return our moon") whenever there was a lunar eclipse, so that Bakunawa would spit out the moon. There is also a lingering belief in the provinces here that when there is an earthquake, it is caused by a giant crocodile ("buaya") under the ground. So the people rush out of their houses and call out "Bua! Bua!". My wife Ling Ling heard people doing this as recently as late 2019. "The footsteps of the ancestors are still to be seen"!
Heck… these videos are always so friggin good
And thank you for watching them.
Perfect timing, I just got back from a fair about Eastern cultures and bought an Italian pizza. I thought "this would be the perfect moment to watch a Crecganford video" and you released a new one today. Thanks
And thank you for watching it, I hope you enjoy your pizza!
@@Crecganford Your videos have been fuelling an interest in Indo European culture I've had for more than a decade, shedding light to many things I wanted to know about. Thank you very much
In Altay (Turkic) mythology there're plenty of dragons but there's a specific story of 2 dragons figthing each other for 9 years.
Before the times of man there were dragons roaming the land. The most powerful among them was ''Sangal'' the evil one, it dominated all others and stole their ''Töz'' (somethimes it means the soul sometimes its just jewels in the story). Sangal lived in a cave, stashing all the töz he stole deep down, thinking ''Tengri'' (God) would not see him there. One day ''Büke'' (sometimes referred to as Bükrek) the youngest among them climbed up to a mountain and called for Tengri, when Tengri answered him he told him about Sangal. Tengri descended from the sky, and asked all the others if Büke was telling the truth. In fear of Sangal, they all kept their silence, then Tengri told Büke that he was jelous of Sangal as he was the youngest and Sangal was the eldest. Tengri told Büke that he should be ashamed he called his name and only told lies to his face. After Tengri ascended to sky, Sangal came out of his cave and jumped on Büke, starting a fight. Büke knew he did not have a töz, it was stolen by the Sangal, if he were to die it would be his end. So Büke kept fighting evasively. 2 dragons kept fighting each other for 9 years. One day Tengri would hear the voices of roaring dragons on the land, he would descend from the sky to see them fighting. The others would now tell Tengri all the truth. Tengri then gave Büke ''wings made out of heavenly clouds'' in the midddle of the fight. Büke overcame Sangal and pierced his chest with claws and teeth. All the blood and flesh bursted out of him spread all across the existence creating the life.
Tengri said he would only give Büke his töz back, the stolen töz of the others were given to the life created by the blood and flesh of Sangal. This new life would be named Ebren (Evren in todays Turkic langs. and it means universe). Tengri ascended to skies taking Büke with him. And this is how the life is created. (according to this story)
I also know the metaphoric meanings of this story but I better keep it short.
Source: All the Turks living around Altay mountains today, it is still told by the elders to kids as a bedtime story.
Thank you so much for sharing this, I love reading these things. Thank you.
Love your channel, you really bring the past to life! I am always curious about what the day to day experience would have been like for our ancestors and how they would have viewed the world. Thanks for sharing this research!
I would love to know that too, and we can only guess. But I try and understand their beliefs and culture, to help us have some idea. Thank you for watching.
Always good to hear you tell us tales. I wish I had been listening to tales like this since childhood, but have no problem catching up now lol.💚🐢
It is a fascinating story when you realise how long ago these tales were told. I wish I could listen to how they spoke and communicated.
@@Crecganford that would be amazing! But I’m still just as excited when you’re doing the telling 😊
@Crecganford Having just finished watching all of your content over the last few weeks, it is nice to see someone dive so deep into mythology and its origins. As a christian (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints), I do not feel offended by your opinions on Christianity, but enjoy the opportunity to see how things are connected and how far back the origins of belief and myth can go. Thank you for your efforts and time in developing this content!
Thank you so much for this. Fascinating. During your talk I thought of related/ derivative stories such as Perseus-Pegasus-Medusa/snake, Eve/ wife-Serpent-knowledge, Dian Cécht (Irish healer god)-slays the triple snakes/Méche-scatters the remains in a river (Berba)... It makes me think of how important are the findings of such caves, with their wall art, carvings and bones to our modern interpretation of ancient culture and beliefs. I look forward to further findings that can allow specialists such as "Crecganford" to confirm, revise and elaborate further. Thanks again. I love your channel !
Thank you for watching, and for taking the time to comment. It is appreciated. And yes, once you start understanding some of the earliest motifs you start seeing them everywhere.
Hi John,
Your videos are amazing, they are informative and entertaining, I like to watch your videos.
I have one complaint.
The Hindi subtitles are a little confusing though, the grammar and sentences are not coherent sometimes. The spellings of words are good though. Please take cognisance of this 🙏
I have been watching your channel from the past 6 to 7 months now and I love your oldest myths video series, especially the origins of religion one.
Thanks 🙏👍
Whilst I try my best to ensure subtitles are good, and certainly better than auto-generated ones, I just don't have the time and resources to check everything all the time. But I hope with time I will get better, and there are more and more tools out there that maybe able to help me improve the quality further.
This video made me think of several things. The first thought I had was about how medieval dragons spit poison rather than breathe fire, as there are cases currently in study about spitting snakes whose biological mechanism is literally for attacking human/primates eyes with poison. Secondly, I immediately thought of St. George slaying the dragon as now being more connected to an older myth versus simply an analogy to a Roman Commander besieging a city. Thirdly, birds also got mentioned, so I started thinking about Native American Thunderbird striking down Uktena, as well as how St. Micheal being a human figure with bird-like wings striking down the Devil (extremely different stories, but they resemble bird-like entities striking down dragon-like entities). Fourthly, I think of potential subconscious replication of snake slaying myths in caves and/or near water in modern media, such as Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. Not to jump into a European biased perspective of a Beiring Strait theory, but these dragon slaying myths might be evidence for homo sapiens deriving from one place on our planet.
I have produced a video on the origin of the dragon myth, and so dragons. You may find that very interesting indeed.
Its my first time seeing a video by you and I'm loving your breakdowns step by step. This video made me subscribe. I really like history and mythology.
Thank you for your kind words, I do hope you like some of the other videos too.
Awesome video, Jon. Thanks for doing all that hard work and research. This is fascinating. If you know of anymore Stone Age proto myths and rituals, I’d love to hear them.
Thank you. There aren't that many, but I will do them as and when I have enough information and a good enough story to wrap them in.
As usual this was fascinating. I appreciate your amazing wealth of knowledge and the ease with which you explain myth and all its various connections. I'm curious about the relationship between the snake, water, moon, bull and labyrinths as symbols in myth. Would you consider that as a future topic? Thanks for contributing to my lifelong learning.
Thank you for watching, and some of these connections I will talk about in the future, certainly the snake and the moon will be in a video towards the end of October. I hope you come back to watch that.
I was so looking forward to this! This really made my day, thank you! ❤🐉🐉🐉
And I hope you enjoyed it.
Ooh, so cool! Definitely do more videos on Paleolithic Europeans! This is so interesting!
Thank you, I have a few ideas, and so watch this space!
I hope you cover more cave art in the future.
Agree.
Yes, I will, where I can make some sense of it
@@Crecganford I'm obviously not speaking for the original poster, but I would be thrilled if you highlighted patterns across time and space - more horses/lions/etc. or hands/hands missing digits, when and where.
In this video, you helped me see a pattern I've never noticed before: where there was a river AND a cave during the era of art and/or ritual, and how that might change the purpose or meaning of the art.
I will definitely be re-watching this one more than once.
It is also consistent with the snakes representing a destructive comet and/or meteors. See also the Lascaux shaft scene and Gobekli Tepe where it is clear snakes represent meteors. Comet impacts generate water - rain, floods, tsunamis etc.
I do believe this was a motif, but it was not a significant one that transferred itself to mythology, although the reason for this is as I mention in my previous video, on the origins of dragon myths. And that is that stories have different meaning to myths, and so aren't necessarily told in the same way.
Thanks. I've always thought that dragons might be associated with rivers particularly. The long, meandering shape of a river is just too suggestive to pass up. Also, early hominins might well have viewed snakes as baby dragons who hadn't got their wings yet. They would've noticed that tadpoles grow legs, and that caterpillars get wings. It wouldn't take much imagination. Much later peoples (right up to today!) have certainly thought crazier things! One could easily speculate that killing the 'babies' would ruin the nest and run the 'dragon' away. Of course, it would be fiendishly difficult to back up such ideas, and impossible to prove. As to the cave drawing, I notice the snake is on its back, and is placed below the person (with whom the horses are level), and the buffalo are also upside down, but in the 'sky'. Hmmm... tavi.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It is an interesting image, and can be interpreted in different ways, but I have tried my best to put context around it based on myth, and the most probably version of myth that they may have known.
@@Crecganford I agree fully, of course. Like any science, the best we can hope for is to get as close as the evidence allows. Short of inventing time travel, there are just some things about history we'll never know for certain. Consensus may not be what the average person thinks of when it comes to science, but sometimes it's about all we've got. Even math needs it. tavi.
Man I'm glad I found this channel. All four videos I've watched have been just top-notch. New sub incoming!
Thank you so much.
The song about the Lambton Wyrm springs to mind.
So glad you made a video on this, i was so interested when i first saw the clay bison thingies :D
Thank you for watching it, and for taking the time to comment. It is appreciated it.
@@Crecganford likewise for taking the time to explain this in depth, very cool stuff.
I cannot help but see the Indo-European dragon-slaying myth partially play out here: Two clay cattle represent the animals stolen by the dragon. Two headless snakes would be the heads of the dragon which were killed by Trito. There would also be a third snake, let loose into the depths of the cave (explaining it's absence), representing the last head of the fleeing dragon Ngwhi. At the end of the ritual, the source of water would be safe to drink for the tribe, and their animals would be free from harm.
except it was 2 snakes in 2 separate caves ... 1 per cave so 2 different stories
@@ottodidakt3069 that's not what I gleaned from the account; can you timestamp exactly where he says it?
When I was younger I had a dream that I was in a sort of colosseum or arena seemed like made of stone and I defeated a large snake in a pool of water. This is freaking me out but also shedding light on perhaps some of the symbolism behind my dream.
That’s fascinating, I wonder where you pulled the imagery from at such a young age?
@@Crecganford thank you for your reply! It seems to me that this concept is something that could be deeply engrained in our beings. Or perhaps it could have been a past life situation where the dream was an actual memory of one of these rituals. The dream had a sort of gladiator vibe to it, either way, the themes were uncannily similar to what you're discussing in this video. Thank you for sharing this information!
@adamcarson2086 I am a big believer in what I just call "genetic memory". Basically, memories get encoded in our literal DNA, and that gets passed on, sometimes manifesting as dreams or ideas for stories.
Science already acknowledges "instinct" which IS genetic memory, so my theory isn't completely unprecedented.
Now what I haven't reconciled is people that have memories from a life that wasn't their ancestor. But who really knows how the universe works.
Sorry to post something of a digression here, but it is tied to the subject of different names and interpretations of the same manifestations, be they creatures such as dragons, or divine beings such as Yemo, the lord of the underworld, known as Yama in the eastern tradition, and Enma in Japan, which you have already covered in great depth. In Japan, the Boddhisatva Jizo is more widely known through Asia as Kṣitigarbha, the patron of travellers and children. Now, his job description is very, very similar to that of Saint Christopher, AND rivers are a key part of their legend, too. Now, try as I might, I can't find anyone online who claims they are connected, beyond their job descriptions, but I'm sensing something more - to me, even the consonant sounds of the names "Chrisopher" and "Kṣitigarbha" hint at a common root. Am I completely barking madly up the wrong tree, or maybe, just maybe, like Yemo and Yama, are they both pointing towards a common, primordial Indo-European root?
That is a great question, and if we consider the Abrahamic, and in fact other religions too, made demons and angels out of other gods, then there maybe a link. It is something I haven’t ever deeply investigated, but it sounds like an interesting area to invest some time. Thank you again for sharing your thoughts. It is very interesting.
Great video, the first I've seen but now subscribing and ready to enjoy more videos! Thanks for the interesting information!
Thank you for watching and your support, I hope you like some of the other videos too.
I think you're right on the snake being related to the story of the boy who fights a dragon for access to water. However I think the headless snake near the water source is to ward off other dragons/ creatures
Speculating even further, maybe they thought a dragon would see the headless snake as a castrated dragon phallus and run.
iv'e been waiting on this vid! thankyou so very much!
I’m pleased you liked it.
The presence of the bison is also interesting as there was an identification of cattle with the water in Vedic mythology.
This is incredibly fascinating, I will binge watch your videos later
I hope you enjoy them!
"In Bulgarian folklore the image of the dragon appears as a creature called “Zmey”. The female Lamia or Hala is also present in Bulgarian folklore. While the male zmey could have human features and even sometimes help people, the female Lamia is always dangerous and malicious.
However, the zmey can also look like a person - a young, handsome, strong man with wings under the arms. The dragon has a fiery nature and can sometimes be seen as a flash of lightning or a ball of fire. Elsewhere people even call it "a cloud" and believe that it appears in the sky as a large cloud.
Dragons usually inhabit the forests and mountains. That is why people often speak of “Zmey Gorianin”, which means “forest dragon.” Zmeys are usually believed to live in caves, holes, or cracks in the rocks. Even today, dragon legends are related to the Rabishka cave and the cave near the village of Pirin in the region of Sandanski. Dragons can also live in water - lakes, wells, rivers. At various places in Bulgaria names such as Dragon’s House or Dragon’s Well still exist.
The dragon looks like a man in many ways: it eats, drinks, gets married, and has offspring. Despite having their own dragon women, zmeys can often fall in love with human girls and young brides and begin to secretly visit them at night. Such women gradually begin to stay away from others and not care much about their appearance as the zmey lover takes all their powers. Many folk songs, performed mainly on Easter, and St. George’s Day, tell the story of dragons descending from the sky and snatching their beloved girls. In other stories the zmey arrives with a whole wedding party of other zmeys riding horses. The dragon’s relationship with his human wife leads to children who look human but have wings under the arms and extraordinary power. People even speak about famous rebels as having wings under the arms and being invulnerable to enemies. In order to protect a young woman from these unwanted lovers a mixture of herbs is used and the girl bathes in it.
In folk tales, the Lamia looks like a huge lizard with a dog’s head. Her mouth is so big that it can swallow a whole man and her body is covered with yellow scales. The Lamia also has wings, four legs, sharp claws, and a long tail. Often songs tell us about three-headed, seven-headed or 9-headed Lamias. The Lamia often appears in the form of a storm or hail and destroys crops. Zmeys sometimes fight the Lamias to protect the crops.
Folk tales also tell the stories of famous heroes fighting with lamias, such as Krali Marko, who released girls and young men enslaved by the female dragon. One of the most popular Bulgarian tales, "The Three Brothers and the Golden Apple," tells the story of a brave young man who descends to the lower land and saves the king's daughter, shortly before she is eaten by the Lamia. The story is also depicted in many of the later icons of St. George due to the influence of oral traditions on Christianity."
Credit:
English version: Alexander Markov
Love the channel, amazing content. I would love to see you explore some of the myths and archeological sites you speak of physically. Is travelling around an option for you?
Travelling will be an option next year, and is certainly is a major part of my plans over the next five years.
Insights into cave art meaning is so rare. This is great.
I have been bingeing your videos, I don't think I have much tea left at this point
The myth of Perseus decapitating Medusa is also a version of that dragon slaying story it seems to me. Doesn't he afterwards also marry a princess?
Yes, it is an adaptation of that as various motifs have been modified. Thank you for watching and taking the time to comment.
Interesting! And it causes a shower of blood which turns into a flying horse!
Crecganford is an insanely cool guy. This is suchhhhhhhhhh rad subject to cover
Thank you for your kind words.
I'm so glad I found your channel. When you mentioned the cup of tea I was actually dunking a Rich Tea biscuit in me cuppa !!
A fine choice, thank you for watching.
Another solid video, Jon!
Thank you J S!
I enjoyed this video a lot! As usual!
General question, but do you have advice about gathering credible resources for making historian fiction set in prehistory?
Thank you. I admire people who do this as it isn't easy as our knowledge expands, and occasionally alters, with time. If it were me, although my head is academic as opposed to a story writer, I would say identify the important aspects of what you are writing about, and then look up the latest academic papers on such things. And try and make them fit together.
@@Crecganford Thank you!
This tells me more about the psychology of the researcher than the beliefs of anyone in the ancient world.
Really? This intrigues me... that retelling of an academic paper can describe my psychology, especially considering the eclectic nature of the papers I often retell.
the story with the imposter that marries someone else while the hero is away to slay the dragon reminds me a lot like oddyseus myth. where he and his men are captured by the cyclops which trick and blind with a spear before they return home.
Yes, there is some commonality here, and I will talk about this more in the future. I am just pulling together a significant amount of research right now to help explain this.
This is fascinating. I can't help but think there is an astrological meaning behind this. The features could be cognate with Hydra (snake), Corvus (bird), Orion (man) Eridanus(river) the dragon underneath the ground may suggest it is a constellation under the horizon in summer and rises into view during the winter. (Hydra)🤔🤔 Eridanus comes into view in its entirety in December and in mid February Hydra is in completion. Could it be a story of the passing of months? Above Orion we have the constellation of Taurus, possibly the upside down horned animal above the man? There is the myth of Phaethon who was unable to control his horses and chariots while he followed the sun. Could this be a similar story? The horses in the cave art are moving in the opposite direction to the man who is carrying a stick, perhaps he is trying to herd them? Just a thought as I sit here with my star charts.
Now there are constellations that do match up to certain symbiology, and some of these do lend themselves to this time period. But my thoughts are that they are responses to the story as opposed to being used to create the story.
Perhaps this is a case of sympathetic magic. Another thought is that it's more esoteric and that the cave represents the self and the dragon (snake) represents what must be overcome in order to have access to the water (life). As in Alchemy, Nigredo is the cutting off of the Raven's head (Caput Corvi). Interesting thoughts none the less. Thank you.
Excellent! Very interesting as always 👌
Thank you for your kind words.
Did you see the Yucatan Pyramid video with the dirt devil that looked like a serpent rising into sky? It's quite something.
I haven’t, but I will search for it now! It sounds very interesting.
Mind-boggling, thx! Btw, heard somewhere that snakes are teachers, is that later, or perhaps much later?
Great channel with excellent commentary. Formula for success.
Thank you.
Hey, with that art of the supine snake over the river, with the man and the horses, you COULD interpet the underside of the front horse's neck as ALSO forming the outline of a second snake head. Sort of like two faces close to each other looking like a goblet.
The symbol of the serpent in South American history and mythology is so prevalent that I know I do not need to explain much to express that fact. What I would like to mention though is the hundreds of decapitated heads that have been found throughout South America, in particular Peru. There was a group of people there that practiced cranial deformation. Some of the skulls seem to have been shaped intentionally to produce the elongated effect. Some of the skulls appear to have been born that way and exhibit anatomical features not found in homo sapiens. There was clearly an association between the serpent and this so called "elite" class of people. The fact that the remains are always found decapitated and now you show me evidence of snake decapitation rituals being performed it is more than coincidence in my opinion. Why this age old idea of "cutting the head off of the snake" has stuck with us for so long. Great channel by the way.
Brilliant insight!
Thank you for watching it.
I like your work, thanks ! That being said, nobody lived in either of these caves. In fact, cavemen have never existed. We sometimes find temporary campsites under some entrance porches, but almost never deeper. In le tuc d'audoubert, we have some hearths, but these refer to quick stays, probably in relation with the making of the decoration. One noticeable exception is the deep campsite of Enlene, another cave of the same Volp network it shares with le tuc d'audoubert and les trois frères.
Check out the Native American SW.
Funny. My grandma lived in place StGeorgen where indeed not far from the church was a small hill with a spring on one side and a small cave on the other where it was said "the dragon lived". Damn never thought of it that way. But now you have told rhe stiry it looks obvious that the saint should have slain the dragon to free all the waters around, as there are numerous small creeks
That maybe why it was named as such, very interesting.
Can you talk about more iconography, archeology, symbolism....like the sun disk, etc.?
I can talk about these a little, my education is in mythology, and literature, as opposed to archaeology. But where it is appropriate I will do my best.
@@Crecganford cool! I Just think the sun disk is a fascinating symbol throughout multiple different cultures
I would absolutely love to see you and Aaron Ra sit down and have a discussion on these old texts. You really seem to have studied your ancient writings closely. And I think it would be a interesting conversation. Thank you for all the great info! Love the channel!
I've watched a couple of his videos, although I'm not sure if we are a natural fit as he seems very focused on the Abrahamic religion, but I can reach out to him.
@@Crecganford he's not a religious man but he definitely knows his religious text. And if you ask me it's rare even within the religious circles to find somebody who's actually studied the text. Even if you're not a religious person there's a very interesting history in there that's worth checking out.
@@Crecganford it would definitely be a fun video to hear the different opinions on different ways people live back then and everything. If it ever happens make sure you tag me LOL but hopefully I'll see it, I like watching your channel anyways so I figure I would know it was happening.
Great stuff!
Thank you!
It is interesting why a snake means water. Animal numbers, behavior, and locations would be much different 17k years ago than what we see, but did snakes hang out at water holes? River banks?
The most stunning things about snakes are the unblinking eyes, lack of limbs and skin. It would not seem a stretch to believe some massive sacrifice was made by the snake but sacrifice for what gain? To control water?
Another interesting area is,the link of bird to snake. I can see the obvious opposites of limbless and earth bound vs birds being feathered and free in the sky. There is a second opposite in that snakes are silent and birds never shut up. Opposites are easy to use as teaching or sales devices.
How did the snake end up being picked as meaningful and powerful and the squirrel has no meaning?
Thank you for watching and your comment. If you haven't seen my dragon origins video then that could be worth a watch as may answer a couple of questions you ask above.
Rivers bend and wiggle and from a distance or an elevation a river looks serpentine. The flow of water also creates the illusion of the river moving, like a snake. The end of a river is called "the Mouth". Snakes are "shiney", rivers are "shiney". River waves might appear like scales. Rivers can swallow things whole, same as snakes. There are lots of parallel similarities on the surface. Sometimes creeks have sources in underground springs, literally emerging from a hole in the ground, just like snakes. Snakes can swim and it's not unusual to see snakes swimming in rivers, like babies of the larger "parent" (river). In the western U.S. there is a large river named "The Snake River". You could make a long list of other seemingly shared traits, I'm sure.
@@zipperpillow Great points. I would think a fish is the more obvious water king. It lives in water so it knows all its secrets, "breathes" water, has scales, shiny, s-like movement, swallow its prey. Fish don't have the dangerous venom part that causes fear like some snakes.
In Proto-Slavic reconstructed ritual poetry, we find storm god incarnated as a bird of prey sitting on the top of the world tree or pillar and chthonic serpent hiding beneath the rocks (also caves perhaps?), water holes and tree trunks. They are waging a battle - thunder god drops bolts of lightning and misses the serpent which is hiding under the stone. In our Slavic tales, the reason why oak trees are struck by lightning is explained by the fact of thunderer shooting the serpent but it misses the trunk and roots and instead shoots the tree itself. Not just that the oak tree is Indo-European sacred tree of many sky/storm gods it is also symbolic center of the world. The roots go into the chthonic depths and water inhabited by the dragon (Zmaj/Zmej) or serpent (Zmija). Sometimes old Slavic chthonic deity Veles is depicted as serpent-human hybrid (sometimes with horns), and also as a wise old man covered in vegetation or shapeshifting into wolves, bear of snakes. Perun or Perkunas in Slavic myth is trying to release the waters from the abyss. The killing of the dragon is usually related to wet part of the years when waters and cattle are released, the domination of serpent over the waters is on the other hand depicted as dry months of the year, especially winter months. It's a cyclical ritual in actuality and in ritual enactment. In my own village it wasn't so long ago that some of the similar rites were performed. Of course, original pagan names of gods and mythic heroes are replaced by folkloric heroes and Christian saints.
I have a few stories about squirrels. None of which involve vanquishing a serpent, but I could create one if you would be open to hearing it.
Absolument passionnant !
Really enjoyed the video, thank you. Here in Hungary they have lots of folk tales of dragons with multiple heads, something I'd never heard of growing up in England. Great to have learnt it isn't so rare.
Fantastic. Thank you!
i'm not really sure about the horses - surely people's relationship with horses was very different 17000 years ago compared to during the bronze age because horses were domesticated around 3000BC. So back in 15000BC there was no such thing as a warrior horse.
Horses were hunted for food in the old stone age in both Neanderthal, and in Cro Magnon times. One Neanderthal culture, the Denticulate Mousterian, seems to have relied exclusively on horse meat to survive. So humans had interacted with horse, and (who knows?) may have even herded them like reindeer are hearded by the Lapplanders in a type of semi domestication during the Ice Age. But they did not ride the horses, nor attach them to wheeled vehicles yet. These later Irish, and Indian, myths seemed to contain fragmentary memories of horses being used, not as the transportation for the warrior hero, but of horses acting like a trusted dog...as an allied combatant to the human hero. Maybe horses were used as watch dogs in the stone age. And only later were used as pack animals, wagon pullers, and as rides. Maybe.
@@andrewhammel5714 peaple use horses 4500 years
@@acotrajkov425 What is your point?
My Nanna Lilly, had a pub in the 50-60s in Brixton called the Volunteer, she ran it with her son George.
The locals called it the George and Dragon.
Never a truer word said in jest.
Death is a doorway and time but a window.
She has returned. Tiamat. Jenny.
The origen of the species.
Ava, Queen of Justice.
She is coming with healing in her wings.
Thanks for your videos, they are really good.
Andru. ♉ ♓ Jerry.
And thank you for watching them, and for taking the time to leave such an interesting comment.
Great video!
While other people have added some more about the dragon mythology, I'd like to point out we are talking about the Pyrenees here.
Not so far from Carcassonne, Rennes Le Chateau, Cathar & troubadour country, and on the other side, the West side of the Pyrenees, is Basque country, another enigma of history, with its language we still can't categorize properly, and apparently lots of Dolmens and Cromlechs in Basque country as well!
I always find the Pyrenees really exude mystery to anyone who visits them!
Hi there. I really enjoy your channel. I would like to know if it would be possible for you to have reproductions of small statues made such as the ones you display behind you. I would certainly be interested in purchasing them and displaying them on shelves in my home. Thanx for doing all these.❤️❤️
Alas I do not make these, I get them from museums or licensed dealers where they are originals. Check with your national museum to see if they sell any.
Oh! Goodness! Lusitania was built on Dragons and Portugal is its heir! :)))))))))
Genius, Jon.
Cheers.
Thank you.
@@Crecganford Thank you. I have always been so curious - but ignorant - about mythology and phylogenetics. I really enjoy your videos and the passion you dedicate to the subject. So, thank you! :)))))))))
Cheers from Portugal.
Reminds me of the Eastern Slavic 'Zmei Gorynich" -- the three headed dragon, an intelligent creature that lives in a cave. He kidnapps the Russian princess with the goal of either making her his wife, or sacrificing her like he does to the many other women he's kidnapped and ate (theres different versions of the story). A strongman (bogatyr) from the village goes and rescues her. The snake's heads regrow once cut off, but the bogatyr manages to kill it, and gets to marry the Princess.
I wonder how old all these legends are , facinating. Thank you for the video!
Great video. I cannot concur with the claim that ritual does not make myth. They are definitely linked, I agree, but I think the influence goes both ways.
That’s fair enough, and i will try and explain this thought more in the future. Thank you watching, and for taking the time to comment.
God, how I love this channel.
Thank you!
over 3.9k people here that like either drinking tea or dragonslaying
Excellent as always!
I am very interested in the end of the last ice age, which I assume happened in stages between 17,000 and 11,000 years ago (according to geologists). I am intrigued by the idea from the Comet Research Group that a fragmented cometary bombardment occurred in that time frame.
What is your opinion of whether the memory of dragons could be a memory of cometary fragments (which could look like fireballs with long tails) smashing into the land, sea and ice caps causing huge changes in weather patterns. Would ancients record down such an event in their oral history, and what motifs seem likely to you that they would use? What evidence goes against this interpretation?
Hey Jon, thank you for sharing this hypotheses. This implicates that the releasing of the waters is a much older motive then agriculture. So why would hunter gatherers feel this need? And how come that in western eurasia the dragon must be slain to release the waters, while in eastern eurasia the dragon is the releaser of water himselve? What is the origin of this change?
A good question, and is because hunter gatherers needed water to survive, as did the animals they hunted. This is partly explained in my Origins of the Dragon myth video.
Check out his video on the origins of dragons at the end of the video. It addresses most of your question.
What a wonderful teacher!
Thank you so much.
Fascinating presentation! When I was young many people said that snakes were wet and slimy even though of course they are dry. I assume this maybe from earlier associations with water. Mark Bradley hypothesises that the serpents described as blue or "caeruleus" in colour is so because of the serpents' movements like water and its association with the sea. There seems to be a lot of serpent / water symbolism as you state; I assume from the snakes' movements, shape etc. Also perhaps confusion with eels which certainly live in rivers. One thing that I wondered about the horses is whether they were perhaps also symbolic of water or rainfall because of their fast running and hammering hooves? This could later be reincarnated in myths about cows trapped in caves such as in Indian myth and also Greek myth?
The horse link is very interesting, and I would assume it is primarily that horses gathered around water holes, and so humans so that as meaning the water hole was safe. Although I have no firm evidence of this, but like most things, I am sure there are a number of reasons at play.
@@Crecganford Yes, I would totally agree there would be a number of reasons and I think that is one of the most fascinating aspects of symbolism.
@@jonstfrancis hello :) EastEuropean here. We have several kinds of water snakes which reside mainly in water, my grandparents which led a very humble agricultural life always warned us to be careful around ponds because snakes are amazing in disguising and can be hardly seen in even just a few centimeters of water.
Me being a complete idiot catched my first snake at around 10 years, had the perfect Y-shaped stick to secure the head and also the snake was very small around 30 40 cm. I brought it to my granma and before i can ask if we can keep it as pet, she grabbed the shovel and sliced her in a few sushi pieces in seconds.
@@pt7181 Poor snake! That's interesting you have snakes like that. In western Europe we do have a snake Natrix natrix that hunts frogs and can swim. So yes it does seem snakes would have been seen in water.
What was the species of the snake found in the cave?
One species was a grass snake, that is the one I show a picture of, the other I couldn't find more information on other than it was a particularly long snake.