PREP Makes No difference! Can you handle the TRUTH!?
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- Опубліковано 30 кві 2024
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Well, that's an interesting one!
There's so much confusion on this topic, we always hear prep is key but recently a lot of people and companies are also saying "well, in reality all you need is a good wash", apparently there's no need to polish either, that's just for show purposes cause the ceramic will amplify the look of the paint underneath but it doesn't make a difference when it comes to duration and efficency.
I also think part of the problem was the quick evolution and expansion of this type of product.
Anyway, this could be another cool long term test "Ceramic on compounded and polished paint vs just washed paint"!
From my understanding, polishing has never been a requirement for a coating. Polishing helps clean the panel and removes defects that would be "locked in" under the coating, so you want your paint in the condition it will be until the coating is removed. However, you can coat over defects in paint without issue.
Polishing is just leveling the clear coat to have more the “gloss” and reflectivity. You could coat any car at any stage really. It could be beat down. It’s just going to still look like crap with a coating on top 😂
I got a brand new car and coated it without polishing. It was the best thing i've done without losing my time on prep😊
Surprising that the polish/buff/lsp has proven the most durable. Bilt Hamber are advocates for layering their waxes straight on top of the buffed film left by Cleanser Polish and Micro Fine...
I've also heard from the owner of Adam's polishes in one of their livestreams you don't need to panel prep before coating even if they sell one. I think because the panel prep itself leaves some film or something behind. Panel preps usually flash and evaporate very quickly before buffing it off. Sometimes I also don't feel confident using it because it feels tacky and might cause swirls wiping it off after you just worked hard polishing/ paint correcting it specially on soft black finicky paint
You’re one hundred percent right. When I first started polishing I made the mistake of using a panel prep, having to scrub off the residue cause it was leaving film behind. I use a bucket of rinseless & the optimum sponge now and it’s a a game changer! So much better. Also, you’re gonna have to accept just the tiniest fraction of light micromarring inbetween drying & coating. Especially if you wait too long to take the coating off😭 detailing outside of a shop sucks dick.
so what's the takeaway? IPA is basically useless? I'm convinced the detailing industry want to sell a specific item for every aspect of your car, rather than 1 or 2 that can do 90% of the work.
Ipa isn't very good at removing polishing oil. Yvan LaCroix says a good homemade concoction is 2 parts of the original blue Windex mixed with 1 part acetone, or use whatever the coating manufacturer suggests. Some manufacturers have proprietary panel preps that are required for their coating to work, but that seems to be a thing of the past.
It’s all a giant lesson in marketing. Why sell you 2 things if I could sell you 4. Why sell you paste wax if I can sell a ceramic coating. Why do 1 bucket withsoap if I can sell you two buckets & Rinseless wash and a spray wax to aid in drying.
All of these detailing videos are commercials. Thats why they have affiliate links in the descriptions. 🤘
Got to agree with the comment above about marketing. Remember the simple days of a wash, polish and then a wax. Or even just a wash and then a wax. Now it’s all kinds of stages and with these stages there is a perfect product for it😂 more products for different things, more for the company’s selling them.
@@ChinaRising well yeah, but that is just capitalism and materialism. It infects every industry. In reality, there are only as many unique chemical products to detailing as there are chemical mixers. I mean, there are only so many raw chemicals from producers like DOW that can be mixed into effective detailing products. Let's be honest, most products only have a unique label, color, and scent, but they are the same base product produced by a single commercial/industrial chemical mixer. Even if a company has its own chemist to mix proprietary formulas, they are still limited to the same chemicals that are available to the industry as a whole. Here in Colorado, there is a mixer called B&B Bottling, they mix/bottle products for several hundred brands. You can call them up, use their own formula of a product, or have them alter it to your specifications, bottle it, label it and ship it to you. It's easy to have your own private labeled line of products, and probably not even that expensive. Really, you have to ignore the marketing and look for actual data or just try new products that seem appealing to you.
I’ve been wondering what happened to this test and was going to raise it, glad to see the outcome. Thanks
This, this right here is as interesting as why my soft 99 fusso coat on the misses car (silver metallic) stayed almost 1 year and on my black metallic, lasted like 3 months. These things stun me sometimes wondering life in my sofa at night. xD
A friend of ours had a Mercedes Coupe (330 SL if memory serves). It always looked pretty decent. She washed it once a fortnight with Fairy Liquid and waxed it with the old simonize hard past wax twice a year. She told us once she ran out of simonize and used Pledge furniture polish instead! A detailer might have found fault with the finish but her car (a garage queen to be fair) always looked stunning.
Thats really interesting. Every year I do the ol' detail boogie and panel wipe with BH Cleanser Fluid and each time I got 3-6 months out of M21, BH DSW and IGL Premier (horrible to buff). Last year around March I was more relaxed about things and I went with AG Super Resin Polish and no wipe down, then Gyeon Can Coat. I'm almost 18 months in and Can Coat is still 75% there with some places as good as the day I applied it. Comes up really nice after a wash each time and has stood up well against bi weekly BH Auto Foam over winter. I remember seeing something about the efficacy of matching wipe down fluid to coating ie solvent wipe and LSP with solvent as the carrier...
To be Clear, from a few years when i start hobby detaling i don't feel different when using ipa panel cleaning before wax, wipe off polish past like megauiers ultimate compound or putting wax on another's layers on super resin polish, always is something like 3- 4 month's(using bilt hamber dsw, turtle wax ceramic paste wax, or autoglym uhd). To be clear i'm very happy when my protection gone i can use something different like seal and shine or any ceramic defailer.
As always thankyou for direct comparison.
Strange as...... Ive always thought that the main reason for panel wiping is to avoid trapping polishing oils under the coating thus getting smears/high spots that cant be removed afterwards. Sometimes on dark coloured cars with lots of stone chips in the lower front bumper, i will just go straight on with the ceramic without polishing to avoid getting polish in the stone chips and ive not noticed any durability issues when doing that.
Be interesting to trythe DIY Detail Water Spot Remover - which removes calcium minerals etc and see if it can revive them a little more.
It works super.
That’s interesting and actually something of a win for me because I don’t apply any prep other than finishing by machine and straight on with a wax or sealant. I’ve not had any issues that would make me rethink and use a prep chemical.
Hi John. Let me share my experience. I'm an amateur detailer almost 5 years (detailing mine and my friend's cars). Since I'm in love with waxes(mainly carnauba) , I wax my car every 2 to 3 months (not needed but I like to give a chance to different waxes).
By far the best result in durability (and shining I would say) is after using Rupes Uno Protect(for me although is referred as AIO is just a very good polishing compound), just buff it with a microfiber towel, let it cure and then apply my wax.I don't know why but when used IPA after Uno protect the result was completely different. The durability was much more less even with the same wax.
I don't know why it's happening , it's supposed when you "remove" the remaining oils the wax would bond on the panel but NO.So I just buff it and applying the wax and I'm ok for the next few months (depends on the wax).
Hope I helped you.Greetings from Greece
That was really interesting, i thought myself that putting it on straight from buffing it wouldn't bond
Great video
I've had similar results with wax, pre wax cleanser appears to have a negative effect on the longevity of the wax. Actually better without any prep other than a wash.
That's relieving to see, as I've just polished then qjutso wheel coat on my rims lol
Also though to keep in mind. Every polish has different formulation. Along with to a high degree how much polish people are using. How long its run time has been. How well you actually wiped or not…
Tons of variables. Yet has people 🤔 as we’ve been told even a panel wipe doesn’t fully “degrease the car”
Maybe try different air times after prep? Wipe off, coat vs. wipe off, wait 5min, 1h , 1 day and then coat? Potentially the prep needs to fully air out?
could be but water based alchol solvent based stuff vapes out very rapidly as long as you are above 0-5 deg. Can be a bigger problem for hydrocarbon which can be slower to vape and I think higher evaporation temp. dont think it would be a factor but who knows mate, you are right to explore this point.
I wonder if it’s the same companies telling us we need all these stages of prep… that sell us all the prep products?
Just a thought John 😂
Prep is key, be it painting, glue application or any other surface that’s to be coated.
Around this time every year after a good wash and then claying my car I then put on a coat of McGuires polish and then a coat of Autoglim ceramic coat and it comes up amazing.. just top up the ceramic coat every three months or so after that and its perfect.. it really works for me 👍🏻
Been just using store bought spray on ceramic sprays and waxes because I dint want to do the prep work required by better longer lasting ceramic wipe on products. Wish someone would do a video with like a long term coating on top of a spray on coating like Turtle wax or Meguires ceramic spray.
When you say the second section got panel wipe do you mean a polish then panel wipe? Or just panel wipe with no polish? Great videos by the way 👍
polish then panel wipe mate.
Gyeon primer is supposed to be the one to use or that one from Dr. Beasley's. Who would have thought. Oils from compound polish should make the bondage impossible. Maybe next time I won't be so thorough. 🤷🏻
Very interesting! Which coating did you use?
i think its mohs
I had similar experience over here. I divided my hood in four parts, kinda to test two coatings against each other (Optimum Gloss Coat and Gtechniq Ultra). One side was panel wiped after polish, other was not. I ran that experiment for 6 months, and came to the same conclusion as you. It is quite intresting, would love some scientific resarch about why it is so. Also - great info for when you need to coat a difficult paint - no need to panel wipe, so lesser risk of marring it in the process.
interesting you got the same.
@@ForensicDetailing Yeah, I belive I used Uno Pure to polish the paint. And after your results, I am completly stumped about what to do about future clients' cars. To be honest, when you omit the panel wipe you save 15 minutes on a car, two brand new microfiber towels and dedicated panel wipe, which can be pricy.
I wonder if this is a short term effect, but in the long term (longer than a year) it's beneficial to use panel prep. Something very counterintuitive is happening.
How did the coating comparison go ??
@@scottmattern482 Will run another test soon on my brothers car, this time with some Fireball coating, don't know which one as of yet.
Never used panel wipe to be honest wash polish wax then after 3 months wax and and not polish I’m very careful how I wash it
There should have been a control section of polish only.
the edges outside of the white lines were polished so were sections under tape line (but no coating on them). but a control adds no value here really. but the tape lines you can use as control.
Ok this actually convinced me that it’s the quick detailers doing all the heavy lifting after each wash to prolong the lifespan of the base coat. I really can’t see any reason to apply a “durable” base coat and top it up with quick detailers after each wash. To me just a wet coat or wax or even just a quick detailer will do just fine if u wash car regularly.
I say throw the coatings away altogether and stick to wax
I think as ceramic coatings have a solvent carrier anyway, by just applying the coating it will degrease any polish oils 🤷🏻♂️❓
the coating carrier may well thin any oils on the surface. but degreasing is just disolving them more, they need to be collected up in a clean cloth to be removed before coating goes down (or we are told they need to be). so its more likely if theres polish oil its compatible with the coating the coating may well thin the oils. But perhaps the reminants of the oils just mix in with the coating and the coating still changes state and bonds etc.... but with slightley different composition?
This is very interesting, im scratching my head. I guess there is a lot of dependables regarding this, potentially the solvents in the coating could be breaking down the polishing oils, for example my wheel coating by TITAN has incredibly strong solvents and can potentially be applied on top of a lightweight protection and it will break it down just like a neat ipa would.
A little hack for you, if you have any smearing or hazing left behind from a coating, typically another layer with a fresh applicator will remove it, i assume due to the solvent content.
Or maybe polishing oils (at least the particular polish you used) do not leave a unbondible barrier, or maybe polishing oils are a myth?😂 you should try coat on top of a polish with silicone, that will rule some possibilities out.
Do modern day polishes contain oils or are they just a water based abrasive?
Im sure you know this, but laying protection/ceramics on top of bilt hamber cleanser polish works just fine, maybe there are other synthetic based AIO’s that work too. Also im sure you’re aware companies sell polishes with fillers designed to be s final step and coated straight on top of, recommend for paints very hard to finish such as some of JLR’s dark offerings.
This is one area of detailing that really does need some real testing and repeatable results. We've always just taken it for granted that prep is both needed and beneficial. Even if it is beneficial...is it worth the time/money/effort needed to do so? Is it more efficient to just do a bare-bones prep and use an easy to re-apply product multiple times? I don't know...but product-selling companies and detailing "experts" are incentivized to make these things as complex as possible. We need to keep that in mind.
I think there are a lot of variables at play here. What panel prep did you use and which coating?
I'm not convinced about primer polishes, unless they are specifically designed by the coating manufacturer and used according to their directions.
I'm a firm believer in using the specific prep spray designated by the coating manufacturer. The Rag Company guys did a video where they applied the same coating on a panel with an the designated prep product, a prep product from a different company and an IPA wipe. The coating flashed and behaved very differently with the designated coating prep compared to the others.
There are a lot of different coating formulations out there, with very different working times and curing mechanisms. With the amount of work involved to fully correct the paint (if that is your desired route), and the cost of a 30mL bottle of coating...it only makes sense to use the prep designated for that specific coating. A $15 bottle of prep spray is cheap insurance. Remove as many variables as possible and trust the chemists who designed the products. Even if that coating could be used with another product, I'd rather spend the $15 for the proper prep and not risk a $80+ bottle of coating plus the time/labor to re-polish and reapply.
its all in the first video mate.
I'm not getting it. I'm a bit simple mind you. On the second area if the water has disappeared without leaving anything behind, surely you won't get water spotting ???
That's totally different subject m8
Is the remainder of the panel wipe product breaking the bond between the coating and the panel?
Not sure if there is remainder.
I just wonder because we're talking such fine margins and people know a lot more than me on this here I'm sure but down at the chemical level any leftover tiny trace of product might prevent the ceramic coat bonding as well as it would without. Alternatively, the lack of prep enables a stronger bond between the ceramic and whatever was on the panel... Might be the latter is more likely?
Also thanks for the videos.
I would bet it's to do with the way the paint swells in response to products and methods being used i.e. when you machine the panel it heats and swells the paint, the panel wipe is a solvent which swells the paint same with the others used, the coating itself or rather the solvent its being carried in swells the paint. Interesting video but people need to remember there is very little detail/science backing up whats being said.
Dam.
That's eye-opening...I've been waiting for this review
The junk keeps the funk 😂😂😂
Shouldn’t you decontaminate first? Water spot remover at least. Clay towel. Rinse.
No m8. Clay towel is abrasives. But we did wash with acidic shampoo.
What compounds did you use for correction sir for section 1?
its in the first video mate but I think its s20
Im looking at an angle on your section 1 test to where polish oils evaporates with heat by polishing action and your working conditions during the time of your polishing. We both know that temp is a major component to how fast oils evaporate. The higher the surface temperature matched with a hot climate can give a purely naked or a surface free from everything that can lower adhesion to a coating during installation and even after wiping the residue. We cannot also count out on how much product you used during your polish run/set to the amount of whats left before you wipped off. I corellation with your s20 compounds it being pegged by scholl concepts as a one-step compound, we both know that the protection usually left with these one-steppers are very light and not as durable as a proper wax or sealant. Hence given the high temp either in the surface, working conditions or amount residue left after wipe-off, it can still evaporate to zero. As for panel 2 with IPA, most know that even if the IPA used is ceramic specific, if not administered right, it still can leave a residue since its main component is Isoprophyl hence double wiping is recommended if you administered an initial over saturated run. This is just my take. Thank you for these test sir. I have always been a big fan of yours. As truly your not the typical detailer flooding youtube.
S20 is a pure abrasive and contains no protection
So does that mean there will be little difference between DSW on SRP and DSW without SRP?
Well... we have not used SRP or DSW here. more ceramics on different finishes. Would make an interesting test. But Im not sure prep is as critical with waxes as they dont bond as such. could try this and see.
@@ForensicDetailing thanks. I shall test it myself on the bonnet in a couple of weeks time.
Hi John so you do private work? as I have a f10 530d that could really do with you help!
no mate really sorry. have a look on pro valeters and detailers website. they have postcode lookup for vetter and insured pro detailers in your area and the services they provide mate.
@@ForensicDetailing thanks John really appreciate you getting back to me! Keep up the great content love this channel 😊
What polish brand model was used?
...
😂😂😂😂😂 @@ForensicDetailing
Sheldon laugh 😃
It looks to me that this proves that ceramic coatings do not work for very long, Ill stick with Gyeon wet coat or Yum foam + every 8 weeks or so
that coating will be there for years and years. the problem is because its invisable the only way people measure their durability is hydrophobicity. which has obvious flaws. less hydrophobic product can look dead after a month but last longer than products that present well for 6 months etc...
I do sometimes feel like there are all these processes that people swear by and regurgitate every time a topic is mentioned despite any actual evidence or data in this industry. Logically, this doesn’t really make sense though, but it is interesting. Maybe some LSPs are just more ‘sensitive’ to bonding to surfaces or maybe that whole panel is properly clogged? Be interesting to see the test repeated.
I personally have had the experience twice where a car was prepped properly and the coating applied and the coating worked properly, but there were just high spots. Essentially the previous coating was still there in parts. Maybe prep is more for aesthetic purposes than performance? Who knows?!
Possibly one of the reasons some companies are bringing out polish primers?
Also the only problem in your conclusion is you’re assuming the prep was the best, but maybe it left behind something? Where as maybe a straight IPA diluted with water would have performed better?
Not picking holes just saying it’s an incomplete data set. Now to try several panel wipes in this fashion?
Logically a problem with prep could account for this. That's good thinking. Because from a simple perspective the 2 sections where I did not use it were better. So repeat with iso wipe would be good direction to go
Yes this is interesting. But i will do full machine polish every time before ceramic coating installation.
Just to be sure it is clean and swirl free. Who wants to install coating over swirls?
For real m8 but this is not about that. It's About after the polish is done and the impact of the surface prep
Gyeon Primer needs 24 hours of curing before a coating can be applied overtop, otherwise they recommend panel wiping with prep then coating if you want to coat immediately.
I have a video showing various LSPs on top of ONR VS panel wiped paint, and the full coating did not bond correctly to ONR.
correct yer we used primer with no panel wipe left 24 hours.
What????..............is it just a ploy to get us to buy another product then? ......mind blowing content jon !!!!!!!!!!!!!! You crazy man you!!!!!!
not sure it is no. But some might argue its a get out of jail card that could be used by the industry. But either way a lot more testing would need to be done. who knows there maybe other reasons for the results im seeing... lots of variables.
@@ForensicDetailing Could you try to go over it with a water spot remover and see if anything happens?
Yes, I agree, jon.........more testing is definitely required. I hope you pursue this as it's great content for the channel . I believe this would get a hell of a lot of people's juices flowing!!!
Crazy. The main thing though is showing people ceramics don’t have this crazy life span everyone thought.
Countless channels showing many many tests that ceramics die about a year in. And that’s not even washing it and having movement over it all the time. Clogging the pores. Driving it and have the dust hit the car ….
What people are seeing most the time is all the layered crap they have and are using maintenance products. It’s not the coating anymore but all that Sio2 you’re applying weekly 😂
The material is on the car but the hydrophobic die yer.
Someone that works as a auto body shop could answer this or a chemist
Auto body shop won't have a clue on that m8 it's outside of their remit. Coating formulator might. They would want to know or need to know full list of materials in the polish.
On a separate note, does your wife have a special stare reserved for every time you come home with a new bonnet Jon? Asking for a friend 😳
Disagree. Try that in a environment with more dust, sand, tar, bird poop, rail dust, fallout. The UK gets cleaner rain than we get in the states.
Are you trying to tell me that 90% of the products and information in the detailing industry are/is nonsense? Who knew 😂
Gyeon mohs is utter garbage! I’ve been testing it for some time . Waste of money time with mediocre results
No it's not lol but this is not about coating performance it's about impact of preparation on performance
I think you invented something new accidentally 😅 …..
Proves detailing is full of bad knowledge and techniques
Not sure it's proof of that. More testing needed.
Not possible to draw grand conclusions from one isolated non lab controlled test panel. If you could repeat the result many times then perhaps but i suspect your intuitions would ultimately shine through - prep is key.
Not true you can draw conclusions from an individual test we have done this. And this test does not require lab conditions. In the same way you don't apply coatings in lab and test panel needs to be placed outside. Yes more testing always great though and results of this test could be due to specific factors we don't understand. But it's valid within its own extent.
I wore my red tie and it rained. It didn’t rain on the other days of the week when I didn’t wear it. Therefore it will always rain when I wear my red tie. You have single data point from a single experiment. No conclusion in science would ever be drawn in such a manner is all I meant.
yer its definetly a single test mate. but so its the entire channel really. And Im agnostic in terms of results. In fact I encouraged people to comment on what they think is happening.