Hey Phil! I'm your round one opponent. A few counterpoints to your commentary... 5:29 I had already had done the clunky Brainstorm the prior turn and not seen a land. I had Brainstorm and Ponder, and if I found land number 3 I had the game won. I was just looking to maximize looks at land number three, but whiffed. 13:51 I didn't want a Surgical in the Void to be used against me. It seemed SO likely the followup with the extra floating black was a discard spell on the heels of Dauthi. The fact that it functioned as casting Peek was secondary. 17:12 Grizzledaddy going to the Void after a bottom-bottom on the scry was bad luck, but I have zero complaint equity after raw-dogging the Archon off the top for exactly lethal the game prior. GGS! EDIT: I went back and watched the replay, given some of the comments left here. For G1:I Brainstorm in response to the Reanimate on the Troll to see if I can dig up countermagic. My hand at that time is Brainstorm, Sea Gate, Ponder, Archon. I Brainstorm into another Brainstorm, Show and Tell, and Diabolic Vision, putting back Archon and S&T to hide from further pitchcast discard effects. I redraw S&T, then need to Brainstorm back Archon and find a land. That Brainstorm drew Emrakul, Griselbrand, and Archon, putting back Grizzle and Emrakul. Ponder sees Emrakul and Grizzle again, plus a Show and Tell. Shuffle returns a second Diabolic Vision. Next turn I draw a Drifter. Phil casts kicked Tourach and hits my S&T and Drifter, leaving me with 2 Diabolic Vision plus Archon, and 2 blue lands in play. In hindsight, I had an out of drawing exactly Brainstorm, casting it into exactly a one of Ancient Tomb, S&T, and Omni, putting back the two Diabolic Vision, playing Tomb, tapping it and the other blue source (going to 2 life) to cast S&T, put in Omni, Omnicast Archon (going to 5 life, killing Tourach, and drawing back a Diabolic Vision), casting Diabolic Vision, finding something good to keep the party going like Emrakul or the other Archon. Mind you, left in the 48 card deck at this point are: 2 Brainstorms, 1 Ancient Tomb, 3 S&T, 3 Omni. My math has that as 0.00231267%
To maximize looks at land #3 the play is: Turn 2 Ponder. If no lands in the top 3, shuffle & draw. Then untapped Sea Gate & Brainstorm into 3 fresh cards. That looks at 6 new cards, while your line looks at only 4 new cards. (you already know the top card from the last Brainstorm, right?) There's no reason to commit untapped Sea Gate before casting a cantrip. If you might need both, Ponder first then Brainstorm.
50:17 If you block with Death's Shadow they don't die because your life total is lowered by the attack and damage will be checked against the new toughness.
Feels like there should be 1 shockland in the deck. There were many times where Swampcycling or fetching one would have helped you play your Shadow 1-2 turns before.
It's funny to see how my, and I think other's, preference in decks has moved along this weird continuum where we start liking mono-colored as beginners because it's simple, realize multicolored is actually really cool and gives you way more flexibility, and then eventually come back around to mono-colored for sheer consistency and deck focus. I'm mainly thinking of things like this deck or mono-red prison just being such powerhouses in no small part because you get to remove basically all manabase issues.
Its funny, while mono black shadow doesnt really want to play bowmasters, i think its very happy to be in a format where everyone else is running a pinger that will help turn on shadow for them
Yeah, Phil even had exact lethal next turn with 2 shadows and a fetchland putting him to 1 for two 12/12 shadows with the opponent at 12 life and only one blocker. Strictly speaking it was even a mistake for the opponent to block there as he was lethal on the back swing. I'm pretty sure Phil even knows about that interaction in the back of his head, he just forgot in the moment.
I understand the deckbuilder’s sentiment. That spicy taxes list I was talking to you about walled UB Shadow’s bowmasters with just a Charming Prince (not exactly legacy’s allstar) for enough time begin that taxy grind.
50:10 you had lethal block 2 creatures with death's shadows, go to 2, death's shadows don't die because they have 11 toughness. Your turn fetch puts both to 12 power, they have 1 blocker. 1 card from monarch shouldn't be enough to save them.
18:32 Words can't describe the beauty of that hand and that game state. Absolute monoblack perfection Also - 31:19 I think taking the Grindstone gives you the most time in this scenario and having the powder keg which can blow up both painter's servants at 2 means leaving them with Painter + Grindstone is even less appealing, but I don't think there was any out that didn't involve sub-optimal sequencing from you opponent. They had you in check on turn 1 and that's a shame
Round 2 game 3, you had a painter under your dauthi, when your opponent paintered naming black to protect from snuff out, you could have paintered them back on a different color to be able to snuff out
i follow the no bow logic, but i think dauthi is like an even more extreme version of the stated issue. ig its for thoughtseize shenanigans?? i def have never liked it as a generic creature regardless, and i like it a lot less than bowmasters
I haven't watched the video yet -- I will, I just want to get my initial thoughts out there first. I think players rightly recognized that Orcish Bowmasters is a very good card. But not every good card goes in every deck. Bowmasters is a control/combo card. It does not go in aggressive decks, because there are just better options. I think Legacy/Vintage players in particular often see it as a modal spell saying to either "Counter target Ancestral Recall/Brainstorm. It's controller loses 4 life. Create a 1/1 and a 4/4." or "Deal 1 damage to any target. Create 2 1/1s." I recognize that oversimplifying cards like this is something a *lot* of good players do because it usually does help to evaluate cards in the context of the meta instead of in a vacuum. But in this case, I think evaluating it in a vacuum is more effective because on most boards, it's castable but doesn't do either of those things.
I don't think Bow-Boy is a bad card I think it's a necessary card to police blue decks, I also feel a lot more fuss is made about it being bannable than is reasonable. Maybe not currently but traditionally blue decks have had a strangle hold on the meta with anything cantrip oriented basically being the best thing you can do in the format.
It doesn't police most blue decks. It polices 8-cast and traditional draw go control. But 8-cast can pivot to Painter and draw go can play Stoneforge Mystic and become a significantly better matchup.
Hi Phil! Huge fan. Quick question. At 46:10 doesn't casting the troll with Dark Ritual+Fetch present a win? Your enemy would have had to produce three additional bodies to block both your creatures. What am I missing? =)
First time I've seen you actually cast the agadeem's in i dont even know how many mono black leagues. And it wasnt bad! Normally it feels like you're out on those. Was cool to see it do something besides bolt yourself to come in untapped.
50:27 you had win there. You are taking damage shadows do not die, they are 11/11 or 12/12 depending how they assign trample damage. If they are 11/11 crack fetch and they become 12/12 they only have 1 blocker.
is orcish bow masters not good enough against blue decks to make it into the sideboard? I understand the reasoning to not include it maindeck, as it is kinda off plan, but for fair blue matchups I feel like it does enough to probably justify a place in the board
@@johnnychan870 looks like he wanted to save the snuff out for the reflection. Casting it first then the shadows leaves him on empty is just playing the land. He would have won't if he just blocked the 2 creatures though because of how shadow works.
So, let me preface this by saying: I'm not a Legacy expert, let alone a Death's Shadow expert. That being said... 9:23 - You draw Reanimate for the turn. In my mind, that sets this hand off, but in a different direction than you took it. Turn 1 - Bolt in your land and cycle troll getting a swamp. Pitch Voidwalker to Grief, taking the Emrakul to hedge against your opponent drawing Show and Tell. Turn 2 - Swamp, Reanimate Troll, Death's Shadow at 2/2 for 8 power on the board. Turn 3 - Wasteland and the other Shadow. 10 power on board, and opponent goes to 12 in combat. Turn 4 - Opponent goes to 2 in combat, and can't crack both their fetches. Is there a reason to Reanimate Grief over cycling the Troll? I mean, you saw their hand - it didn't really have the ability to compete with that tempo. Am I missing something?
@@ThrabenUniversity That's fair - I mentally checked off that the Force was a dead card without thinking about their draw step. It's tough to know which line is better before executing, and I don't know if that line would have won, either. You're absolutely right that a blue card collapses that entire plan, and I hadn't considered that.
One of the reasons you can get away easily without playing bowmaster is its such an auto include people will see you playing black and play around it anyways.
If the general concept is that it is only good in certain matchups, why not have it as a sideboard answer? Even if you don't catch a Brainstorm, freezing out cantrips against blue decks is huge. It's even harsher against Delver with its 1/1's and baubles. It is surprisingly reasonable against Staff of the Storyteller (Cephalid Breakfast or Control), against 8-Cast and also against things like Griselbrand. And it has made Glimpse Elves unplayable. It sees so much play for a reason
I've been saying for a while that I think that Bowmasters is an amazing card but it doesnt belong in every deck that can play it. I think itll still be the most popular creature but people will stop forcing it in literally everything. Its already gotten better, I remember in week 1 when people were trying to force it in random combo decks
In my opinion, it's like Deathrite Shaman. You think you want it in every deck, and then realise it's not the right decision to force it where it doesn't belong.
I made this comment below but I absolutely think it should be in every deck... MAINLY AS a sideboard card, haha. It absolutely shuts down things like Glimpse. It is also really powerful in certain matchups that run a ton of card draw, x/1's or both (8-Cast, Delver, etc.). And it is reasonable against any cantrip deck.
R4G1 - Phil is sitting on 4 lands + dark ritual, looks at Troll in hand, and says "I wonder if I will ever get to 6 mana this game" - then swampcycles it. Didn't end up mattering as you won anyway, but that play hurt me =/
Hey Phil! I'm your round one opponent. A few counterpoints to your commentary...
5:29 I had already had done the clunky Brainstorm the prior turn and not seen a land. I had Brainstorm and Ponder, and if I found land number 3 I had the game won. I was just looking to maximize looks at land number three, but whiffed.
13:51 I didn't want a Surgical in the Void to be used against me. It seemed SO likely the followup with the extra floating black was a discard spell on the heels of Dauthi. The fact that it functioned as casting Peek was secondary.
17:12 Grizzledaddy going to the Void after a bottom-bottom on the scry was bad luck, but I have zero complaint equity after raw-dogging the Archon off the top for exactly lethal the game prior.
GGS!
EDIT: I went back and watched the replay, given some of the comments left here. For G1:I Brainstorm in response to the Reanimate on the Troll to see if I can dig up countermagic. My hand at that time is Brainstorm, Sea Gate, Ponder, Archon. I Brainstorm into another Brainstorm, Show and Tell, and Diabolic Vision, putting back Archon and S&T to hide from further pitchcast discard effects. I redraw S&T, then need to Brainstorm back Archon and find a land. That Brainstorm drew Emrakul, Griselbrand, and Archon, putting back Grizzle and Emrakul. Ponder sees Emrakul and Grizzle again, plus a Show and Tell. Shuffle returns a second Diabolic Vision. Next turn I draw a Drifter. Phil casts kicked Tourach and hits my S&T and Drifter, leaving me with 2 Diabolic Vision plus Archon, and 2 blue lands in play. In hindsight, I had an out of drawing exactly Brainstorm, casting it into exactly a one of Ancient Tomb, S&T, and Omni, putting back the two Diabolic Vision, playing Tomb, tapping it and the other blue source (going to 2 life) to cast S&T, put in Omni, Omnicast Archon (going to 5 life, killing Tourach, and drawing back a Diabolic Vision), casting Diabolic Vision, finding something good to keep the party going like Emrakul or the other Archon. Mind you, left in the 48 card deck at this point are: 2 Brainstorms, 1 Ancient Tomb, 3 S&T, 3 Omni. My math has that as 0.00231267%
I figured it was pretty obvious you were afraid of your own surgical
IMO, casting Ponder shuffle first would be better than Brainstorm and then ponder in terms of looking for better cards
To maximize looks at land #3 the play is:
Turn 2 Ponder. If no lands in the top 3, shuffle & draw. Then untapped Sea Gate & Brainstorm into 3 fresh cards.
That looks at 6 new cards, while your line looks at only 4 new cards. (you already know the top card from the last Brainstorm, right?)
There's no reason to commit untapped Sea Gate before casting a cantrip. If you might need both, Ponder first then Brainstorm.
GGs! I don't have time to go through and comb over this again (leaving for Vegas shortly), but thanks for giving me your perspective.
50:17 If you block with Death's Shadow they don't die because your life total is lowered by the attack and damage will be checked against the new toughness.
Feels like there should be 1 shockland in the deck. There were many times where Swampcycling or fetching one would have helped you play your Shadow 1-2 turns before.
At 50:00 you don't have a swamp in play to take the snuff out line you were talking about
It's funny to see how my, and I think other's, preference in decks has moved along this weird continuum where we start liking mono-colored as beginners because it's simple, realize multicolored is actually really cool and gives you way more flexibility, and then eventually come back around to mono-colored for sheer consistency and deck focus. I'm mainly thinking of things like this deck or mono-red prison just being such powerhouses in no small part because you get to remove basically all manabase issues.
It certainly helps that you don't have to spend $100s to $1000s on a manabase when it comes to mono-colored decks as well.
@@ColeTrainStudio Cries in City of Traitors.
The deck costing the same as the lands in other decks is helpful too.
@54:09 "I'm really enjoying playing this deck, by the way..." Of course you are! Mono-B, baby!!!
As it turns out, a lot of decks don't care about black Raise the Alarm.
with a ping!
Whoa whoa whao it's raise the alarm and a hornet sting let's not be disrespectful
@@Kryptnyt"raise the hornet" or "sting the alarm". Choose your weapon.
52:41 I've never felt a fuck so hard. Peak comedy.
The reaction to the second M&B match 4 sent me😂
Its funny, while mono black shadow doesnt really want to play bowmasters, i think its very happy to be in a format where everyone else is running a pinger that will help turn on shadow for them
Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m R4G2 if you block the shadows don’t die since damage all happens at the same time
Yeah, Phil even had exact lethal next turn with 2 shadows and a fetchland putting him to 1 for two 12/12 shadows with the opponent at 12 life and only one blocker. Strictly speaking it was even a mistake for the opponent to block there as he was lethal on the back swing. I'm pretty sure Phil even knows about that interaction in the back of his head, he just forgot in the moment.
I understand the deckbuilder’s sentiment. That spicy taxes list I was talking to you about walled UB Shadow’s bowmasters with just a Charming Prince (not exactly legacy’s allstar) for enough time begin that taxy grind.
R1G2 I was screaming at my screen to play around archon of cruelty by not cycling street wraith lol
50:10 you had lethal block 2 creatures with death's shadows, go to 2, death's shadows don't die because they have 11 toughness. Your turn fetch puts both to 12 power, they have 1 blocker. 1 card from monarch shouldn't be enough to save them.
Exact lethal! Clever line.
I imagine 1 copy of a black shock land could be useful to be able to find life loss from swampcycling.
this deck looks affordable, might consider getting into legacy with it. looks good
Should you have 1 shock land in the deck for the ability to fetch and get below 13 life or fetch as a combat trick?
I saw turn 2 of game 2 and immediately thought a one of Watery Grave would have allowed you to play shadow that turn.
18:32
Words can't describe the beauty of that hand and that game state. Absolute monoblack perfection
Also - 31:19
I think taking the Grindstone gives you the most time in this scenario and having the powder keg which can blow up both painter's servants at 2 means leaving them with Painter + Grindstone is even less appealing, but I don't think there was any out that didn't involve sub-optimal sequencing from you opponent. They had you in check on turn 1 and that's a shame
Round 2 game 3, you had a painter under your dauthi, when your opponent paintered naming black to protect from snuff out, you could have paintered them back on a different color to be able to snuff out
Servants are cumulative. The creature would still be black.
i follow the no bow logic, but i think dauthi is like an even more extreme version of the stated issue. ig its for thoughtseize shenanigans?? i def have never liked it as a generic creature regardless, and i like it a lot less than bowmasters
10:17 haven’t seen the rest of the games yet, but b/x shockland in the list to go grab with the Troll would have unlocked shadow as 2/2 here
Bosh n roll viewers knew exactly what joe was playing
NGL I didn't have high hopes for that Round 3 match-up, but ya killed it ded...
Ok ok we GOTTA see Death's Shadow with Toxic Deluge, can yoi IMAGINE???
I haven't watched the video yet -- I will, I just want to get my initial thoughts out there first. I think players rightly recognized that Orcish Bowmasters is a very good card. But not every good card goes in every deck. Bowmasters is a control/combo card. It does not go in aggressive decks, because there are just better options. I think Legacy/Vintage players in particular often see it as a modal spell saying to either "Counter target Ancestral Recall/Brainstorm. It's controller loses 4 life. Create a 1/1 and a 4/4." or "Deal 1 damage to any target. Create 2 1/1s." I recognize that oversimplifying cards like this is something a *lot* of good players do because it usually does help to evaluate cards in the context of the meta instead of in a vacuum. But in this case, I think evaluating it in a vacuum is more effective because on most boards, it's castable but doesn't do either of those things.
thank you patron Josh
Beautiful deck.
10:00
See I wouldda just reanimated the Sheoldred there
I don't think Bow-Boy is a bad card I think it's a necessary card to police blue decks, I also feel a lot more fuss is made about it being bannable than is reasonable. Maybe not currently but traditionally blue decks have had a strangle hold on the meta with anything cantrip oriented basically being the best thing you can do in the format.
It doesn't police most blue decks. It polices 8-cast and traditional draw go control. But 8-cast can pivot to Painter and draw go can play Stoneforge Mystic and become a significantly better matchup.
I feel like this deck maybe wanted a shockland or two? Just to get some extra lifeloss off of fetches/troll
Needs a shockland to grab off troll
Hi Phil! Huge fan. Quick question.
At 46:10 doesn't casting the troll with Dark Ritual+Fetch present a win? Your enemy would have had to produce three additional bodies to block both your creatures.
What am I missing?
=)
Chalice of the Void is on one.
@@ThrabenUniversity If I was a legacy player I'd screw that up so many times...
lmao thanks for the reply
Hi Phil! I was wondering if at 21:27 if it wouldnt be better to ping your self with Bowmaster as you have 2 death Shadows
You could even ping your own bowmaster to reanimate it again and then ping yourself for lethal!
Sign in blood instead of night’s whisper?
Considering the amount of tome opponent had 2 to 1 hp after attack, that would have been relevant.
First time I've seen you actually cast the agadeem's in i dont even know how many mono black leagues. And it wasnt bad! Normally it feels like you're out on those. Was cool to see it do something besides bolt yourself to come in untapped.
Bolt yourself + untapped land is a Very good play a lot of the time, though.
Yeah, Agadeem is often a worse Swamp unless you have cards like Chrome Mox or Grief that make it worth it being a black card.
Impressive performance!
The paper deck has Chaos Defiler? Is it worth the red splash?
i wonder if the esper deck player immediately cuts cavern after that game
50:27 you had win there. You are taking damage shadows do not die, they are 11/11 or 12/12 depending how they assign trample damage. If they are 11/11 crack fetch and they become 12/12 they only have 1 blocker.
Any particular reason for powder keg over ratchet bomb? Is Tangle Wire a concern? Also what do you think about Void Mirror as an answer to Beseech?
The cards do different things despite looking very similar. Powder Keg, for example, can blow up artifact lands.
is orcish bow masters not good enough against blue decks to make it into the sideboard? I understand the reasoning to not include it maindeck, as it is kinda off plan, but for fair blue matchups I feel like it does enough to probably justify a place in the board
Depends which blue deck. It hoses 8-cast, but it's near useless against storm. Stoneblade and 4c Soup can do bigger things than some 1/1s.
@@JohnFromAccounting oh yeah I meant like, fair blue based decks. not literally any deck that includes blue
Phil said we're playing a black gate, but which one? Still trying to figure out which black gate he's talking about
Why are there no shock lands in this deck. Am I missing something?
Death's Shadow looks kinda fun.
I don’t know why this happens or why im sharing it but each time I see orcish bowmasters I think kunkish bunkmasters
50:30 Importantly, the Black Gate is a gate, not a swamp, so you could not have cast snuff out for free. The awakening was a misplay imo.
If he played the swamp he wouldnt have been able to cast death shadows.
@@Zauzzie He can still by doing the Snuff Out first
@@johnnychan870 looks like he wanted to save the snuff out for the reflection. Casting it first then the shadows leaves him on empty is just playing the land. He would have won't if he just blocked the 2 creatures though because of how shadow works.
[second minsc & boo has entered the chat]
I was devastated.
So, let me preface this by saying: I'm not a Legacy expert, let alone a Death's Shadow expert. That being said...
9:23 - You draw Reanimate for the turn. In my mind, that sets this hand off, but in a different direction than you took it.
Turn 1 - Bolt in your land and cycle troll getting a swamp. Pitch Voidwalker to Grief, taking the Emrakul to hedge against your opponent drawing Show and Tell.
Turn 2 - Swamp, Reanimate Troll, Death's Shadow at 2/2 for 8 power on the board.
Turn 3 - Wasteland and the other Shadow. 10 power on board, and opponent goes to 12 in combat.
Turn 4 - Opponent goes to 2 in combat, and can't crack both their fetches.
Is there a reason to Reanimate Grief over cycling the Troll? I mean, you saw their hand - it didn't really have the ability to compete with that tempo. Am I missing something?
I think that's a reasonable alternative line. However, it is MUCH worse against a blue card being drawn to Force the Reanimate.
@@ThrabenUniversity That's fair - I mentally checked off that the Force was a dead card without thinking about their draw step. It's tough to know which line is better before executing, and I don't know if that line would have won, either. You're absolutely right that a blue card collapses that entire plan, and I hadn't considered that.
Thoughtseize targ- F*** GO****** HAHAHAHA
One of the reasons you can get away easily without playing bowmaster is its such an auto include people will see you playing black and play around it anyways.
I hate clickbait. Unless it's Phil. Then I want all the clickbait
If the general concept is that it is only good in certain matchups, why not have it as a sideboard answer?
Even if you don't catch a Brainstorm, freezing out cantrips against blue decks is huge. It's even harsher against Delver with its 1/1's and baubles. It is surprisingly reasonable against Staff of the Storyteller (Cephalid Breakfast or Control), against 8-Cast and also against things like Griselbrand. And it has made Glimpse Elves unplayable.
It sees so much play for a reason
in round for the question of do i snuff out or not, you didn't control a swamp my man
Is that the Josh that has been crushing on a ELDs channel?
yes it is the same person who is me lol
@@joshjoyce2174 congrats. And thanks for the sweet list, I now have another budgetish deck to build for my locals!
With only 2 lands that aren't making black mana, should night's whisper be sign in blood?
3 acutally
Orcish bowmasters is keyword soup and doesn't even make sense thematically
I've been saying for a while that I think that Bowmasters is an amazing card but it doesnt belong in every deck that can play it. I think itll still be the most popular creature but people will stop forcing it in literally everything.
Its already gotten better, I remember in week 1 when people were trying to force it in random combo decks
In my opinion, it's like Deathrite Shaman. You think you want it in every deck, and then realise it's not the right decision to force it where it doesn't belong.
I made this comment below but I absolutely think it should be in every deck... MAINLY AS a sideboard card, haha.
It absolutely shuts down things like Glimpse. It is also really powerful in certain matchups that run a ton of card draw, x/1's or both (8-Cast, Delver, etc.). And it is reasonable against any cantrip deck.
Orcish Bowmasters... more like Orcish Nomasters....I'll see myself out.
R4G1 - Phil is sitting on 4 lands + dark ritual, looks at Troll in hand, and says "I wonder if I will ever get to 6 mana this game" - then swampcycles it. Didn't end up mattering as you won anyway, but that play hurt me =/
Was there a Chalice of the Void in play or something shutting off Dark Rit?
can't you just pitch Orcish Bowmasters to Grief?
the entire deck pitches to grief...
I can't get past seeing trolls as taplands, which may be good in a sol-land helm combo deck, but not for a low to the ground aggro deck.
Well, sometimes it is a tapland, and sometimes it is a turn one 6 power evasive threat...
I disagree