Plumbata 2 - Bigger, Better and thrown every way!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 6 гру 2020
- Plumbata are substantial war darts that have their origins in Ancient Greece and were favoured by late Empire Romans. In my first video here • Plumbata - Roman war d... , I experimented with them and following more thought and your amazing comments I have come back to experiment more.
Longer shafts, more fletchings and thrown everyway I could, by hand, by throwing strings and with a staff sling.
Just how far can you throw them and which way get them the furthest?
If you would like to help support the channel please visit my sites
todcutler.com for excellent budget historical weapons
todsworkshop.com for custom historical work
and for T shirts and merch please visit todsworkshop.creator-spring.com/
Jörg Sprave - 'Home made plumbata' • If Old Romans Had Hard...
Tod, that was truly a super cool episode. Pure experimental archaeology. Can't wait to get these Plumbatae babies here, so I can do some "nasty and evil" things with them!
Leave the babies alone.
@@adamcetinkent all in all you’re just another dart in the shield
It was really cool, he forgot to try throwing all 3 at once using your knotted string idea. so maybe you could give that a go as part of your next Plumbata video. Either way I am looking forward to your next plumbata video.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH
Ill let you show me their features HAHAHAHA
“Oh, dear me. That’s tragic that is” I think that’s the most British sentence I’ve ever heard.
Blimey!
"What's all this then?"
Don't forget for full authenticity to include some light tutting
Oh dear. How sad. Never mind.
@@elirantuil5003 then*
10:00 I'm a bit late to the party, but I will try to explain why the dart technique throws were not as far.
In this case it's not about biomechanics, but center of mass. The Plumbata is very heavy at the front end, which means that the center of mass is somewhere near the front end.
If you throw it holding it at the back end, you effectively increase your leverage on the center of mass, enabling you to throw it further. If you throw it like a dart, the center of mass is roughly in your hand, resulting in reduced leverage.
Even later to the party. If you look at how an American football quarterback throws the ball, the nose of it is initially pointed away from the target and is rotated towards the receiver during the throw. This does many things biomechanicaly to impart power into the throw, as well as putting stabalizing, aerodynamic spin on the ball. Anyway, I think that's how it should be thrown; held by the lead "football" with the barb rotated forward through the throw and allowing the thing to spin off the fingers. I bet a pro quarterback could throw it 100 meters this way.
Perhaps the Romans threw them differently, depending on how close the enemy was to their formations.
Also, different ranks of the romans could throw using a different method, not just for different ranges, but for different arcs. A shield raised to defend against an overhead attack makes one blind to almost everything. The great advantage of the traditional roman shield in this sense though is that the shield raised to cover one's head at an angle, still only exposes a relatively small angle of attack closer to the ground.
I still can't believe fourth century Romans traded the Pilum for that. For me plumbata is useless and they are better with a sling that uses lead sling bullets.
A rised shield exposes the lower body for frontal attacks. The rear roman ranks threw at high arc, while the guys at the front threw over hand/like a javelin, sniping for the gut/legs!
I see your camera was promoted from velites to principes, nice.
That's the best joke I have heard in a long time.
@@westernlynx396 would you be willing to explain it to the uninitiated?
@@DH-xw6jp Velites are the young unarmoured javelinmen of the late roman republic, principes are the experienced heavy infantry of the same army.
@@rowindejong3309 ah, a joke about the camera shield. Thanks man.
Nice! Nothing like an intellectual Roman based joke
You've gotta love how humble, modest, and objective this guy is. This is how you explore history and truth, rather than simply asserting your own ego. Thank you, Tod.
Thank you, thats very kind
I was thinking the exact same thing, Aurelius Rusticus.
@@tods_workshop You're most welcome, Tod.
@abis8 alpha8 That is a good idea, might have difficulty in getting them to go in the direction you want, but a good idea nonetheless.
@@tods_workshop indeed a very well done video. i do suggest to bring in a javelin thrower, you would find out a lot. just remember what a difference a professional long bowman makes over an unskilled guy. the romans were professional pilum throwers.
am I the only one who is totally amazed by the quality of the intro?
It's just so harmonic to see the crafting actions become the logo, I'm getting greatly satisfied by that.
Throwing a handful at a time makes alot of sense, with the grouping pretty decent. It’s like a hand-flung mortar shot of flechettes
There was a plumbata revival in the late 70s. Somewhat different purpose though.
We called them 'lawn darts' and mostly used them to eliminate unwanted children or drunk guests.
got my brothers foot in a game of chicken He won
😂
Lawn darts were outlawed due to two many cases of them getting into "the soft bits" of people. I predict a lot of guys looking for them in yard sales and flea markets now. I wonder if you could hunt rabbits with them?
Only in the 70s world, do we turn an ancient weapon into a lawn game ! Remember this is the era of polyester clothing, like the polyester leisure suit.
@@stevendewell5505 From what I understand they're illegal to sell in the US but it's legal to make and own them. Joerg Sprave has a video on how to make them.
"Honey you must see this, the blacksmith is throwing stuff in his yard again"
Lmao - the exact text I just sent to my husband, including the relevant link 😂😂
I guess I will need to show him what it was really used for because what is shown in the video is not what it was used for but I will have to visit him and show him that if possible pass his address will do it gladly.
A six month long crack binge will get you a hoodie like that too 0.o
that hoodie looks like its been passed down through generations of crackheads, since the late 80’s.
@@carlwheezerofsouls3273 be nice
Looks like he robed a homeless guy
Great video Tod! When I was a kid, (maybe 10)I discovered EXACTLY how much damage could be done with these "darts". I tied a 6-foot piece of dental floss to the middle of a dart, the ones with the screw-on metal point and plastic tail. The balance was perfect. I could get it to go very fast. My experiment ended when the floss broke and the dart struck and penetrated our above-ground swimming pool. 18ga. steel pool wall and plastic liner. The dart was hanging in the pencil-sized hole it had created, water leaking out. I didn't get to swim for a month.
*front liner takes one in the back*
from a few rows back: "oh bloody hell, rubbish throw that one"
"Let me just do that one again"...... *pulls out his plumbata from the back of BLadicus's neck......
Shit, he thinks.... I'm never goonna live that one down, if only I could rewind the tape...
I mean tablet... *cough cough, battle...
make it as if it never happened, Oh carpe diem!......
Then the practical side of Todicus' mind kicked in......
Well atleast I've getter better line of sight now that there's a Tod shaped gap in the front rank...
"Professional wouldn't have done that..... eh lads"
That's what the lads in the legion kind of liked about good old, logical, happy, Todicus.....
he was honest to a fault, even if his angled-dangle, did prefer "under-handling" three Birds at once.
:)
@@bedroomjunkie8201 your reply would make for a funny monticus pythicus skit. Or maybe Benny Hillicus.
@@hiker919 finally, someone who appreciates the comedic width of my scutum! lol
My first war in the SCA, I was lined up and ready to go when I felt an arrow strike the back of my head. A crossbowman misfired and rang my bell with a blunt. I was out before we even closed. lol.
Earns achievement: "Quadrigis Interfectorem"
"They're off to Jorge Sprave where he is going to do something evil and unpleasant with them, then laugh about it."
"HAH HAH HAH!"
"LET ME SHOW YOU ITS FEATURES !"
@@jacobbronsky464 Later that episode
"Uh oh I think I accidentally killed somebody"
"Overhand, straight at people's faces - great stuff."
Spoken like a preacher.
7:59 Just imagine the guy who is squarely in the centre of the 3-plumbata cluster, just missed on all sides.
"Look to your left, look to your right; two of you will be hit by a plumbata.”
That's how romans went out of troops.
Armoured camera, someone's learned their lesson :D
In a hard way ：）
I laughed out loud as soon as I saw that
“Overhand, underhand, Roman’ing free
Tod of Tod’s workshop, throwing is he”
Not just me that thought "wombles" when he said that, then! LOL!
The Wombles are clearly more bad-ass than we thought...
Uncle Bulgaria with a plumbata. Now I'm worried.
@@StevieB8363
Imagine a legion of wombles conquering Wimbledon, a shield wall of umbrellas and walking stick pilum and plumbata!
"Whoever out there knows about bio mechanics, explain that!" Best line of the video ^^
You could put another peg on the other side of the stick. So you could have 4 different settings.
Oooh.... I liked when he threw three overhand, that tidy triangle formation they landed in!
TOD The Builder
CAN HE BUILD IT?
TOD The Builder
YES HE CAN!
Haha!
Jawol Jörg kan das..
As he said: "there are some very insightful comments"
All the way from the land of pink concrete.
“i’ve extended the shaft length”
Seen the ads for that.
I'm interested in extending the shaft length.
Should of painted the longer one blue.
@@greg9403 blue is lucky, red makes you go fasta
@@kenparker99 Who isn't ?
I wonder what the results would be with shorter shaft and longer string.
Hi Tod. Are you aware of the illustration of two types of plumbatae in 'De Rebus Bellicis'? The author also gives a fairly good description of how they looked and were held. Also Polybius described a short dart thrown with a sling.
Really glad you were able to test this out, Tod. I had planned on doing a whole series about 9 years ago about the plumbata/martiobarbuli, including building and testing like you have done here, but life got in the way and I never got around to it. I am so glad that someone was able to take up the banner :) A few bits of commentary from an old veteran of the subject:
I think the thing to keep in mind when discussing plumbata/martiobarbuli is that they were designed to really allow the standard legionaries of the Late Roman army to "take the place of archers" as Vegetius says, as an "in a pinch" backup, or a cheap alternative due to the economics of the time. Rome's forces during Late Antiquity (especially in the Western Empire, in its waning days) show that there was an attempt to cut corners, to keep expenditure low. These financial troubles became especially evident during the fall of the Western Empire, as well as in the East following the events of the ultimately detrimental Renovatio Imperii of Justinian, and especially when Maurice failed to pay his soldiers (which led to the revolt which toppled him). Each soldier carried several of these plumbata behind his shield in case a ranged attack was needed when no archers were available (or to supplement such units). It was a cheap, easy way to standardize what was once a diverse set of troops and equipment. Obviously, this weapon was not quite as good as having a cohort of archers around, but it at least allowed for a general to know what he had on hand when he had to muster something from the smattering of forces available to him in the world of the Late Roman military (a more reactionary, rather than a proactive force as compared to the early Empire). It also allowed for some additional and interesting tactical flexibility.
I would also note that I think that it is unlikely that any of the string or sling methods would be used, as most of the tactics of the time suggest that the infantry used mostly rigid or shield-wall type formations. Tossing them in this way would not allow the soldiers to have the room to throw these weapons safely, and would probably cause a lot of friendly fire (soldiers were by and large not subject to the same quality training that their early imperial predecessors saw, if the sources are to be believed). Cavalry, although becoming more dominant in the East during Late Antiquity, did not appear to have as much of a use for the plumbata, nor were cavalry as dominant in the West (apart from some special auxiliaries); it was mostly an infantry weapon. I would therefore suggest that although a moderately greater range could be achieved with some of these more outlandish methods, the overhand "flick" method or throwing it overhand like a javelin, would probably be the most useful and accurate way to deploy these weapons in the field.
Lastly, as commentary regarding their deadliness to a unit, I would recall that many later Byzantine military manuals describe that ranged troops not really as deadly units in their own right (such as English longbowmen), but more as harassment and deterrents on the field of battle. Indeed, John Haldon even goes as far as saying most Late Antique and Early Medieval Roman/Byzantine generals by and large dismissed the usefulness of archer units, since they are very rarely reported in battle accounts and feature much less prominently in the manuals. Most bows of the Late Antique (and even the Early-High Medieval period particularly where the Byzantines were concerned) were just not that powerful or possessed a very significant range, but could present a threat to most lightly armored units (which would have amounted to most soldiers of an army of the time). In this sense, the martiobarbuli could have been there to simply deter enemy units from charging, for fear of the little barbs finding gaps in the shield wall and slicing into a soldier's exposed flesh or through a tunic. Armor being what it was in Late Antiquity, not many units, especially those of the roving barbarian hordes, would have been armed in much more than a shield and some simple padded armor or chainmail at best. And a cloud of a hundred martiobarbuli would certainly find a gap somewhere if they were tossed en masse. A horde of barbarians kept at bay for a few minutes at 30 feet is better than having them right in your face. And maybe just enough time for your Scholai to come in and smash them.
P.S. One other thing to consider is the amount of the lead (I am assuming you used the archaeological findings as a basis?) and the angle at which the arrow is thrown. Getting additional weight, and the momentum from gravity by tossing it at a higher angle might give it a little more punch than is apparent here.
These can penetrate mail easily. The points are not as well made as Tod did, they are a SOFT iron rod split in two and bent backwards to make a barb. Being so soft, it squeezed at hitting a ring, going through like a bodkin. When pulled from a wound, the barb would bend a little and get hooked inside the flesh/bone. If it hit a non armored part, it would act like a normal broadhead doing massive damage. Like pilum, romans used the low quality iron to their favor, genius!
Tod rocking the homeless, mad genius look... ;-)
He has a shed.
which I pretty much live in
If you live in a shed, you're still not homeless.
Also I'm wondering if there's somewhere I can either get plumbata or make them according to specifications. I live in Cambridge UK and I used to throw javelin as an athlete, developing my own technique.
I think you can apply some throwing techniques into trying to test distance and accuracy and power.
As metal worker's clothes go, these are nearly new!
Imagine being a neighbor and wandering over one day to say hello and Tod is in the back whipping war darts around and talking to himself
In other words, Monday.
And then one of them says "hey i remember this game!" Grabs a war dart and chunks it straight into the air and looks up at it. . . only to step aside casually at the last second as it plummets to earth.
No weirder than a friend of mine from the Navy, who has an axe-throwing target. In his front yard.
@@DH-xw6jp I remember doing that as a kid in the 70s with Jarts. Were we nuts or what?
I was thinking the same thing... "I think I will duck through the woods to pay Todd a visit.... *Plumbata rains down* WTF!"
"These are about flesh, they are not about armor"
Well, I am pretty sure that if you got Joerg to throw one of these you could trespass a door and the armor of a guy standing behind it....
This is a plumbata, let me show show you its features! Hah hah hah!
@@david7384 😅100%
Best thing about your channel is how open to criticism and questions brought up by your viewers. Love it
Tod: turns on camera holding a bundle of plumbata
Camera: *anxiety noises*
"huza" it shouts while hoisting its sheild
@@gmanbo yeah, pretty brave shield... I bet if he had more of those, they'd form up a shield wall and slowly zoom in on his position menacingly...
Imaginary girlfriend "What are you watching on UA-cam honey?"
Me "A British guy throwing sharp sticks."
Sounds like a great way to spend an evening.
In the USA we called them lawn darts lots of fun until they were pulled off the market
Kenneth Parker and out of children
@@kennethparker2168
Lots of fun until they pulled them out of your HEAD.
Yes a woman loves a good sense of humour
I’ve been watching these kind of videos for a couple years now, just discovered you, you’re my new favourite. I’m imagining a hundred guys with staff slings, loaded with five darts. After each throw an assistant loads the next volley. With that much in the air, the enemy would either be shut down, or would have to run through it. Scary!
"Be ye legionnaire, or be ye Tod?" - Roman drill Instructors, probably.
Could they?
Would they?
With a string?
Could they?
Would they?
Throw the thing?
Would they throw them with a stick?
Would they throw them three darts thick?
I do not know how they would kill.
I do not know, Sam. Please hold still!
*plumbata release*
🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣💀💀
There's no better rhyme than a Dr Suess rhyme.
You win all the points!
Brilliant! Thanks for sharing
I love it
I see you have added a camera shield, live and learn.
I came to comment on his aptitude for learning.
He needs to make it a full dome. Guaranteed protection from low energy projectiles and a lot easier to keep in place.
From a castle wall, even old grannies would be deadly with them.
I noticed that the light from the sun changed by the end of the video. Thank you Todd for putting in the time on this video!
Great film ideas.. 'A fistful of Plumbata', and 'For a few Plumbata more ' !
It would be 'Plumbatae'
The Good, the Bad, and the Plumbatae.
High Plains Plumbata.
Pale Plumbata.
@@Seelenschmiede Ah yes... But you get my drift ... Apologies for my poor Latin
To round out the trilogy, you wouldn't even have to change the name! "Duck, you sucker!"
Have Plumbatae, will travel
For times when 2 hoodies are too warm, but one is too cold, Tod is wearing approximately one and a half :D
Looks like it's been wrapped round a leg of pork and had arrows fired at it
It's only 10 bucks for a new one... Lol
Just found your channel. Your willingness to experiment and potentially be wrong is refreshing and great to watch. Subscribing for sure. Lots of info, with none of the unnecessary rambling. Keep up the great videos!!!
loved the episodeTodd , spend most of my time watching you and scholagadiatoria, my love for history has reawakened and im loving it
“A Fistful of Plumbata”, the spaghetti western they never made.
Is this early enough to be a Puls Western instead?
Doomrider
What’s a puls western?
@@thechumpsbeendumped.7797 Puls was a staple ancient roman food. I was trying to be clever by replacing modern day spaghetti with an ancient roman dish.
Doomrider
Are you sure about the spelling? I’ve tried looking it up but can’t find anything. A link would b3 much appreciated?
@@thechumpsbeendumped.7797 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puls_(food)
I want to see 'ragged smith's hoodie' as an option in every rpg now! +5 fire resistance +3 charisma, +10 max range on all ranged weapons
Hey man we love learning too! Thats why we are here. I was so happy to see this suggested, I just finished the first one.
I'm really enjoying learning about stuff with you. Love your work. Please keep posting!!
That camera-eye view of the plumbata zooming in is pretty terrifying even from behind a screen. The morale-sapping effect of those must have been impressive.
And if it hits, that monstrosity isn't coming out without a lot of cutting. If it hits a limb, amputation might have been a good option. Nasty little things
"Straight in people's faces, great stuff." Love it.
It's so obvious you're having such a good time. It's very entertaining to watch.
Honestly feel like you might be onto something with the three at once overhand. When the enemy are closing in, not a lot of time to throw 3x, not a lot of space in the formation, it gets a lot of darts downfield in a hurry. Seems like that could really disrupt an enemy formation at a that critical last few seconds.
It's very natural, enemies rushing in, grab everything and YEET at once, all gross motor function, can be executed in panic mode, it's perfect for the last 15 meters just before the lines clash. I can imagine some legionaries go monke and grab 5.
@@bodyno3158 Maybe one or two at distance, any remaining all at once when close.
Plumbata 3: actual javelins
Plumbata 4: Ballista
Plumbata 5: Culverin
Plumbata 6: space rocket
I kinda love the way the plumbata are slowly but surely evolving into arrows during the course of these videos. Starting out as a big heavy dart and ending up using the mechanical energy of a stick and a bit of string to virtually double their range.
@@Kanner111 Period sources claim they actually could rival archers in range with practiced troops.
"Absolutely/conclusively, we cannot know if they threw it underhand or overhand"
Great attitude for those studying history. Humility a la Plato is incredibly important when studying what we do not know, yet try our best to learn.
that's what i call entertaiment! thank you Tod, for all your work and videos
"I'm not a professional warrior." Bless you Todd don't underestimate your expertise. You are however a professional armourer, who are I believe much rarer.
Wonderful and factual stuff. Keep the going buddy. 👍
Back in my day we used to call them lawn darts.
Jarts!!!
@@65Superhawk just going to say
IV got quite a collection of them and we play in my backyard during summer time, I , we tape glow sticks to the weights attached to the tips and play during the night time so much fun
Sounds of small dog whimpering nervously...
These pre-date lawn darts by a couple of millenia
How to know you'll have a great day: seeing a 25 min vid from Tod on your feed. Nice
Subscriber, military history geek, adult son of a history teacher. I love researching Roman Military Tech and have never seen or heard of Plumbata before… I want some!!! You are a wonderful artificer and blacksmith. Bravo sir!
This is really profound. This makes exploratory history exciting.
NOW We are Talking! Great Test Tod, these working definitely way better and also really like methods with String!
Hi Adam,
Thanks and yes the longer shaft made a great difference. It would be great to see what you could do with them, being a man who can actually throw.
Throw them with a shepherds sling and they don’t need fletchings because the sling rolls them out spinning.
The string idea is getting closer to its intended style of use but still far from its real potential.
As Adam will show you, anything can be thrown effectively like shovels,sticks or any sharp, pointy object at short distance. Plumbata were designed as a high speed long distance projectile. Not for throwing except in a pinch, pretty much the same as all throwing weapons but plumbata is cumbersome and would not be carried for throwing.
Sling
Sling sling
Tod you can see what Adam can do with the plumbata here on Adams video made long ago.
Here’s the link tod ;)
ua-cam.com/video/ndNT3cjwugs/v-deo.html
@@andrewsock6203 oh god...
Love the tattered clothing, makes me think how excited you are to test out the new ideas right out the workshop.
I'm more into the idea that this is what weapons commercials look like in the post-apocalyptic world
@@jackforester8456 Well if its Todd making the pointy sticks, I'm buying them
@@odied1750
How many caps would you pay for a quiver of these?
Simple man, absolute legend. He used to do special effects for Kylie Minogue, U2 and the Spice Girls. Worked on Never ending story 3, Witcher series. Scrapheap challange.. the list goes on. Still takes time to make sweet youtube clips for you hairy lot.
@@CognosSquare
❓❔❓❔
Thanks for doing the three at once. I just found your first plumbata video, and that was my number one interest.
So very happy I found your channel! Fantastic content. Cheers from Louisiana!
GoPro: "Not today mate, i upgraded to escape the fate of my brother!"
Tod's Workshop. One of the few places on UA-cam where the comments are truly worth something.
Ideas are the most valuable thing a group offer👍
Man I can just imagine an entire army trowing them as in groups and the damage it would cause to their enemies
Seems like they'd fall off right quick against well-armoured troops though.
@@AnEnormousNerd For cavalry, if the mounts are armoured, I can see some nasty combination of pike and shot and shield wall. With the darts providing the range weapon.
OTOH, against disciplined armoured infantry, I wonder if the weapon is worth using at all. If disciplined, they might just ignore it if they are confident with their armour. This means they can still charge at your formations
@@samuelmendoza9356 Seems like it would excel against relatively lightly armoured infantry, like the 'barbarians' the Romans spent a lot of their time fighting.
@@AnEnormousNerd I realized, if its going to be used against armoured opponents, then at least, it will give them concussion unless they utilized shields. That said, it should have the balance between weight and throwing range. Too heavy, it's range might be paltry but at least, its guaranteed to give concussion. OTOH, if it's too light, then its only good against unarmoured ones. And so far, this vid has shown it can penetrate at least an inch of unprotected flesh.
Scutum where composite constructions of several layers of wood (usually three), glued together with a leather and canvas covering. the best surviving artifact was found in syria and is 105.5cm high, 41cm across, 30cm deep, but only about 5mm thick
Cool, I had no idea any had survived. Found a link to a Yale site for it artgallery.yale.edu/collections/objects/5959
@@littlekong7685 cheers man, I knew the damn thing existed but its in a paper book I have and I couldn't hunt out their source. its literally the only one left, but at least its something physical to work off, not just writings and records
Thank you - this I why I love the comments section
@@tods_workshop No problem, I love the content so anything I can do to help. the Dura-Europos scutum is mid 3rd century AD, so its pretty much the final form of the design, by late 3rd/4th century the scutum kinda disappeared during the collapse of Western Empire, and as the old Marian Legions where replaced with the Comitatenses of the Late Roman army.
@@malarkthemad4300 The Western Empire did not collapse by the late 3rd/4th c., you mean the late 5thc. And no, scuta did not disappear either.
The shields you refer to were replaced gradually by a planked construction. Most of them were between 1.07 and 1.18m in length and 0.92 and 0.97 in width btw.
Alright so, who should we pester to see wether or not they can be thrown from atop a battle donkey ?
Ah, a person of culture!
ModernhistoryTV just got a mule he is training!
@@niall456 don't you say! 🤯
@@Seelenschmiede Hehe
I so need a battle donkey to go with my WAR GOAT!
During the video, you asked for the opinion of a biomechanist on javelin throwing technique. I used to throw javelin competitively, and I am now a computational biomechanist many years later. I also used to build bows, and so I really enjoy watching your channel. Thank you for taking the time to make these videos. My life, especially during the lockdown, has been richer for it.
I rarely comment, but for you, I will. I'll just add the caveat that I have not studied the javelin throw's biomechanics, so I'll limit my comments to what I know firsthand. As a note, someone who has studied the biomechanics of the javelin throw is Jesus Dapena, who works at Indiana University. Without further adieu.
Throwing a javelin requires great skill: at the time of release the velocity vector of the javelin, and its main axis, need to closely align. With a well-aligned delivery the javelin will experience lift, similar to an aircraft wing, and allow you to throw further than if you used a ball. The javelin style throws you executed did not display this nice alignment at delivery, and so the aerodynamic forces hurt the throw rather than help it. Don't feel bad about this, I've never seen someone throw a javelin correctly the first time. And the Plumbata is actually really difficult to throw using a javelin style throw (more details to follow).
How effective can this technique be when executed by modern athletes? With training, a middle of the road athlete can execute a standing throw of 30m accurately using an Olympic standard javelin (800g for men, 600g for women). The same athlete can add perhaps 20m or more using a run up, so we're at 50m but accuracy has suffered. At the far end the spectrum, an international level athlete can probably throw 50m from standing, and with a full run-up (likely impractical on a battlefield) will be over 80m and accuracy is down substantially.
Throwing a javelin so that it has this precise alignment at release is manageable if you can see the javelin tip in your vision when your arm is back prior to the throw. When the javelin is so short that you cannot see the tip beside your head, this challenging technique becomes more difficult because you cannot see any slight misalignments. The Plumbata is short enough to be a real challenge to throw, like a javelin, with a precisely aligned delivery. This would not be impossible. Tom Petranoff, an American javelin world record holder (1983-1984), sells a javelin training implement called the `TurboJav' (www.turbojav.com) that is quite short. I threw it well with practice, but I found it more challenging to keep it aligned throughout the delivery than longer implement.
The next part of the Plumbata that would be challenging for a javelin style throw is the grip: a throw is far more effective if you have a ring of material to grip between your thumb and index finger. Maybe ancient Plumbata had some material there. Since we really cannot know what gripping material was on ancient Plumbata, this is not a deal-breaker.
The people who used Plumbata professionally had a long history of using javelins. They would have known that the short length of a Plumbata makes it more challenging to throw correctly than a javelin. While nothing is definitively off the table from my observations, the short length of the Plumbata makes me doubt that a javelin-style throwing technique was used to deliver the Plumbata.
All that said, I think that javelins and Plumbata would be used best together: lob thousands of Plumbata, and at the same time throw thousands of javelins (or any projectile with a flat trajectory). Protecting effectively against this onslaught requires making a shield wall, and a shield roof at the same time. If discipline, training, or the shields' size are lacking, the defenders end up getting skewered from above or head-on.
You've come a long way, Tod. Good on ya!
I remember a rather reserved Tod, way back. You've done well for yourself. Forward, ever! :)
Q: How did romans throw those?
A: Any way they could
A: anyway that worked at the moment.
Im gonna go on a limb here and say that they probably didnt use these in war,, becauase these could be too easily picked up and used against them, im going to say these were used for Roman Lawn Darts game, maybe with prisoners of war on the lawn, that sounds roman
@@thetayterminator1436 I think the idea was to throw them just before a melee fight, so there wouldn't be time.
Also, if you were the roman legions against foreign enemies, your bigger shields and trained shield formations would probably make tossing them back less effective.
A: Anyway that worked and would be the more effective in a given situation.
The group of 3 in the hand looked lethal af. Imagine a whole unit doing that at once
Total war noises
Three in the hand, coordinated with a massed charge could be devastating to an enemy formation. Think of the air filled with arrows in either cinema version of Henry V. If the second rank were to launch a fusillade of plumbata at the same time the first rank charged, the enemy could be hammered by the first rank while they were still trying to protect themselves from the lethal projectiles. A beautiful scene to anybody who’s been in the Infantry.
Coolest bit of history I have learned in a long while. Thank you so much for the video!!
Joerg Sprave an man with a truly warped mind. I LOVE IT!!! Throwing with the stick is similar to the atlatl.
I feel like the difference the cord and sling have in height was much more significant than in distance. Those would be a much more powerful hit coming down.
The string thing? We did this as kids, including the wrap round technique. We called them Dutch arrows. I think it was well known to generations of budding yobbos like me...
I remember them as well 👍
We used a string with a knot into a notch. Very effective..
@abis8 alpha8 that's pretty much a cestrosphendone/cestros
I still do it.
Instantly likeable man that Tod is; unassuming integrity, scientific inquiry of a serious business.
I had no idea this existe. Thank you for bringing this up.
My favorite part about this channel is the desire Tod has to be wrong so he can learn. If that makes sense.
Disprove to improve, baby.
Tod,I just wanted you to know how much I enjoy your channel. I'm laid off from work because of COVID and I've been really depressed and miserable lately but watching your channel and being exposed to your enthusiasm has really made a big difference in my life. There's something magical about hearing someone talk about something that they love and are passionate about and in times like these it's really life changing. Don't ever let anyone make you feel like what you do isn't important because i know it means a lot to many people.
I feel you mate. Watching geniuses share their love for their craft is at once cathartic, interesting & engaging :)
Hang in there, stranger.
Come outside and play urself too mate! Life isn't about watching others have a good time while being miserable on a couch..
@@REByrd-ki3on so true bro - what a great way to say it too
you got lain off because your govt hates you, theyre needle nazis
Thank you for making ancient history real ..... and showing how the was really lethal.
Just came across this channel and I love it!
The string is basically a soft atlatl and gives additional leverage arm as long as you can impart enough speed to keep the string taut throughout the throw and release at the appropriate time..
You're right about that. I teach high school anthropology and I've been teaching about atlatls for years. That's the first thing I thought about when I saw Tod's string technique.
Yes, a soft atlatl without the benefit of the extended lever arm.
@Badger0fDeath Atlatls are dead simple to use; they're comparable to a bow and arrow. Anyone can learn it in a day, really. The mastery is in accuracy and power.
Brought back memories of my childhood in the seventies throwing darts with a knotted string.
soft atlatl is the name of my new indie band
The number of times that Todd’s hooded jacket has caught fire? I’ll wager at least 20 times.
While the archeological remains of the organic parts of plumbatae has sadly been lost to time, one hooded jacket from roman times remains in Tod's personal collection.
I'm a smith and can attest to that. You get a bit of a scuff, which then burns easier, makes a bigger hole, and burns even easier. You get a sweatshirt feeling like charcoal or baked linen tinder. It's pretty funny to watch your shirt go up in flames.
What u talking about its just barely breaking in ;)
It was brand new on that morning...
Great chap with enjoyable and informative content; subscribed
Thanks for this fascinating look at an ancient weapon-system.
Bet Jörg will go full automatic on this one...
Full Plumbaumatic
I can't wait to see...it's features
Looking forward to it. (belly laugh)
Fully auyomatic plumbata handneld trebuchet
@@Piromanofeliz a 300 kg plumbata?
Ammm here is an idea: first line throw underhand, second line overhand. With little practice both can strike at same time but from different angle, thus make it hard to shield against it.
ouch, ancient equivalent to a time on target artillery strike. I like that.
I'd go for underhand on the second line, a bit harder to hit your mates that way.
I like that as well. Causes confusion, panic, and increases the likelihood of sticking someone.
@@juanignaciovargas5810 I disagree. If you fumble the release on an underhand throw, your plumbata will zoom out at leg to shoulder height into the back of the guy in front. An overhand throw will keep it above the man in front of you unless you really cock it up.
You need space in front of you for a decent underhand release in my opinion. An overhand throw needs less space.
Just discovered your channel. Brilliant! You've earned a new subscriber.
Love your stuff, Tod. Every episode you do of this feels like a clip taken straight from The History Channel.
Imagine about the front 30 men chucking 3 each of these as they close their formation up and charge. A volley of a hundred plumbata into your boys.
thats what i said last time lol, glad he tested it. would be horrendous
And during the whole approach these things have been raining down on your ranks wounding several soldiers.
Also your rear ranks can be dumping them over the melee into the opposing rear ranks.
@@nexviper or throwing them Dart style at your face as you're trying to spear fence with the guys in front of you. Into your mouth and your eyes, may not kill you you might even survive but I promised you're out of the fight
Pretty cool to see plumbata used with a throwing string and staff sling ngl
Very informative. Thanks for your effort.
As a kid back in the 70s my mates and I used to make and throw "Dutch Arrows" using the string wrapped around the shaft method. Great fun.
Tod, "This isn't being shot out of a bow..."
Jeorge, "Let me show you its features!"
If Jeorg had been born in Roman times we'd all STILL be speaking Latin! LOL
10:10 Yes, it's a leverage thing. The center of mass on the weapons is smack in your hand, as opposed to if you hold them over the fletchlings, the center of mass is further away from you, allowing that center to be accelerated more before you release. It's the same thing with your staff sling.
Physics is cool.
10:10. Reply to the leverage aspect.
It indeed is about the absolute distance to the fixed rotational point, the schoulder in this case. Iwould not call it leverage though. It is about the Hock velocity. The farther the way the object is from the fixed rotational point, the faster the hock speed.this in its turn creates a higher linear velocity at the point of release. Higher speed creates more kinetic energy leading to farther distance. Overhand throw and especially the javelin throw have a smaller radius resulting in less hock velocity thus less kin energy thus less distance.
Leverage is the principle wherein a force acting further from the fixed point has more effect than aforce closer to the fixed point. In this case in is not about the forcevector of the plumbata (since the plumbata is not the force generating structure, the muscles of your shoulders muscles) and it is all about the relative and absolute velocity of the plumbata due to the bigger radius.
Source: Joseph Hamill (2008)biomechanics of human movement.
Dawn L. Leger (1999) fundamentals of biomechanics.
Reminds me of growing up and playing with yard darts in my grandparents yard during the 70’s. They were weighty and thrown underhanded for good distances towards a target hoop on the ground. Makes me think maybe these were the inspiration for the game.
I just learned about lawn darts and their plumbata inspiration, so I found this vid. Now I find out that my man Joerg also made a video on them. I keep being amazed by the internet
Can we get a t-shirt that just says "We just don't know " on it.
Presumably these would've been used in conjunction with a shield? Perhaps you could try using a shield when throwing these and see if any of those methods differ, or have limitations for practicality sake.
I was thinking similarly. And that makes me question if they would've been thrown in combat.
I don't think so, unless the extra weight gives you a little more inertia.
You hold a shield very close to your chest.
@@neekBG3 there is a point in Roman history when there were three maniples with the first two alternating combat during a battle with the third maniple only used as a last resort. If the third maniple were using plumbata to cover these line switches they might have put their scutum aside while they did so. That's all conjecture on my part. One thing I have learned about Roman legions is when you think you know what is going on there is some exception that proves you wrong. At least for me.
@@johnkilmartin5101 I think that sounds entirely feasible. Especially with Roman preference not to use horses to cover retreating infantry and put pressure on pursuit in the same way it was used in later periods (not a historian but from what I’ve gathered)
I could think of much worse ways to cover a maniple exchange than a rain of plumbata!
I want some of these so bad, looks like a lot of fun. My new project- to try and craft some of these for myself. Never made anything like it before, i usually only make armour and forge knives and axes but i'm up for the challenge. This is awesome!
Maybe these weren't used in formation.
I've always wondered how on earth a sling can be used in tight formation. Since Legionaries were given slings and lead shot.
But the Romans often had to defend camps and forts. In these situations, formation matters less and projectiles become more useful.
The Roman legionaries (main forces) did not use slings, they did use thrown lead balls - usually from fortifications. The legions were trained to fight in close order which does not work with slings but does work with some thrown weapons. The use of the sling in Roman armies was reserved for special auxiliary troops with no or very light armour who fought in a loose/open order, and withdrew behind the legion shield wall when necessary. While the most famous group of slingers were the Balearic islanders, Other sources of good slingers would have been people mountainous areas in the Balkans. Slingers have to train from childhood to be good and there is no evidence that Roman or Italian citizens did this.
@@diarmuidh6980 Is that because slings were used by shepherds for defence against wolves? It was often the job of boys, time to practise.