The Parramatta Light Rail Problem
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- Опубліковано 3 чер 2023
- Stage 1 of the Parramatta Light Rail project has been under construction since 2018, and its opening finally expected next year in 2024. As part of the project the closed Carlingford Railway Line is being converted to light rail, which will make it significantly easier for people who live north-east of Parramatta, along the former railway line, to get to Parramatta. But it wasn't always meant to be this way. The Parramatta Light Rail almost followed a very different route; from Parramatta to Castle Hill, and from Parramatta to Macquarie Park via Eastwood. This route would've allowed for more people to be served by the light rail, while also having more heavy rail interchanges making it very robust. Most importantly, it would have finally dismantled the dreaded Uncrossable Zone. So...why wasn't this route chosen? This is the story of the version of the Parramatta Light Rail that never came to be, and why I think it should still be built.
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Links:
My video about the Carlingford Line from last year: • The Carlingford Line, ...
The Parramatta Light Rail website: www.parramattalightrail.nsw.g...
Western Sydney Light Rail Feasibility Study from 2013:
- Part 1 (delves into choosing the best routes): drive.google.com/file/d/1zVNM...
- Part 2 (delves into the best stations for the chosen routes): drive.google.com/file/d/1wxiv...
Parramatta Light Rail: How the final route was determined Report from 2016: drive.google.com/file/d/1FjlB...
Had you told me 3 years ago I would be excited to see a "town planning" video I would have laughed. But now....keep up the good work young man,
Not me. I wanted to be a town planner since I was a 4yo
One of those people who feel the need to be constantly entertained, rather than learn. I get it.
@@jamesfrench7299 I am not sure that I understand fully or follow the direction of the negativity of your comment, however I wish you well in your future trolling efforts.
What would be really cool is if Sydney had a light rail network spanning the whole city, from the north shore/northern beaches all the way down ti the southwest. Imagine how great it would be if we didn't have to catch only buses every three days when the entire train network implodes
Life changer for jobs in different locations, connecting the elderly with family … education, the list is endless .
I had the same idea. In the days of trams, there wasn't just one tram network but multiple.
I dont think LR to the Beaches is sensible, LR takes far too long to travel significant distances and maxes out at about 10,000 people per hour per direction and 70kmh top speed but an average closer to 25kmh. Thats not enough capacity.
Sydney Metro averages over 60kmh (top speed 100kmh) and has a capacity of at least 30,000 per hour per direction (planning documents indicate final capacity could be higher). The strategic planning documents for Metro showed that the Dee Why corridor would have the highest potential patronage of any Metro corridor option not already served by rail, it needs Metro. LR could maybe do a cross-country feeder role from Dee Why across to Chatswood via Frenchs Forest but it woulsnt have the speed or capacity to be attractive enough up to the Beaches in the present situation and would cost enormous amounts of money anyway.
The killer was “the widened Windsor Road”
Light rail is too slow for large distances like that. Better to go with metro or heavy rail.
Extend the Carlingford end to Brisbane via Tamworth
I think part of the reason for the long-term survival of the Uncrossable Zone is resident's mindset. Carlingford was a sprawl suburb from day one, a garden turned residential, filled almost entirely by California Bugalows. People moved there to escape the old-fashioned, dirty, noisy, railway-stationed, Federation-housed inner-west. Pennant Hills Road was already a stroad in the 1960s but that was okay because just like in suburban California itself, car travel was the way of the future.
Never underestimate the power of NIMBYs!
Baulkham hills resident here who also wishes there was a light rail in between Parra and Castle Hill! However I can definitely see why it never went ahead. Windsor road is crazy busy and it's not unheard of to have traffic backed up all the way to the M2. They already have to add temporary lanes to allow three lane traffic in one direction during peak hours. Also side streets are too windy and narrow to redirect car traffic or fit a light rail though. Can't really imagine them fitting a light rail track through Windosr rd unless they demolish a bunch of houses or build the whole thing underground or something.
Oh well, we can always dream. Great video as always! 👍
For Windsor Road to work in having a Light Rail line, more R3 and R4 is required along this corridor to give you the necessary set backs.
They used to have rail line 100 years ago on the same road
Another great video and thanks for shining the spotlight on the gap which everyone who has ever lived around the area is well aware of! Hopefully they do use that reserved land for something productive.
Thanks Jeff! I wouldn’t hold your breath but I do hope something is done eventually. It just makes logical sense to me.
@@BuildingBeautifully send Phase 2 along the Liverpool - Parramatta T-way. It would be a no Brainer.
@@electro_sykes But Tway is faster than light rail.
@@BuildingBeautifully What is your view on Tways? To me they seem better than light rail as they are faster and cheaper to build.
@@bahpapajarmjackson Buses suck, I prefer Light Rail. The buses can just be re-routed to the Aerotropolis and Western Sydney Airport to improve Transport Access to the new Airport as well as Liverpool itself
Hi Sharath, another great video as always! I can tell you why the Eastwood County Road reservation has never been utilised.. Brush Farm Park has threatened species/ existing native vegetation. This means they can never justify the EIS, even though the engineering solution is quite simple - a clear span deck from the top of the hill at Kissing Pt Rd x Marsden St straight across to Rutledge St towards Eastwood. This is why the traffic still has to dog-leg around. The other thing is the original County of Cumberland road reservations were planned in 2d without regard to topography. Light rail can handle steeper grades than heavy rail but might struggle to cope with top of the hill at Brush Farm without a tunnel or cutting. But from a transport planning view it makes 100% sense. I think a compromise solution would be a high frequency bus transitway (similar to Liverpool-Parra T-way, which also utilised a former freeway reservation).
I'm no transport engineer, but back of the envelope calcs get 5.3% grade from King Street to the top of the hill at 100m elevation. This seems to be within general design parameters books.google.com.au/books?id=04z0Lw1qKiIC&pg=SA3-PA5&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=1#v=snippet&q=sustained%20grade&f=false - ie. less than 6% over less than 750 metres. In fact there would seem to be room to get another 10 metres elevation before hitting the forest, thus providing 25 to 40m ground clearance, with then a similar decline to land at the opposite ridge at 90m elevation in Rutledge Street.
They used to have the most extensive tram network in the Southern Hemisphere till they decided buses were better
I've been told that the commission that recommended getting rid of the trams has two members that represented British Leyland. They made a lot from selling buses. You need to follow the money when decisions don't make sense.
You need to make a video on Parramatta CBD, and it's insane changes becoming the 2nd CBD and booming house prices in that area
Should make a future light rail network map! Heaps of potential for new LR routes (and extensions).
- L2 to Coogee beach
- L3 to Maroubra and/or La Perouse
- circular quay to Bondi beach (via Hyde park, Oxford St and Bondi jnct)
- Green Square via Hyde park and central? (Start Circular Quay, go up Macquarie St then through Redfern)
- Parramatta road corridor obviously!! Central to Taveners hill then onto five dock/Strathfield or lidcombe (extending ParraLRStg2 to Lidcombe station)
- Liverpool CBD loop
- Campbelltown-MacArthur CBD Loop
- Mt Druitt to Marsden Park via Luxford Road
- Penrith to Glenmore park via Mulgoa road
They would all allow greater density along transit corridors, and are in areas that make the most sense for increased density, urban renewal and/or existing amenity/amenity potential
Why not extend T4 and the metro west? Better faster more useful service
to solve the scheduling issue, just create the 3rd branch to epping, make it a T junction, and send carlingford trams to epping to free up space for parramatta-epping trams. that is if we’re looking for cheaper solutions.
it’ll require a change coming from Carlingford or telopea to get to parramatta, but i mean surely it’s still worth it if it means having a 6-8min frequency out to maquarie
St Kilda Road / Swanston St in Melbourne has 8 tram routes running along it from South Melbourne northwards. In peak hour they each run at 8 minute intervals. This means that at its core you gave a true & turn up and go" service, and on the branches you have 6-7 trams per hour. So the 3 branch option is quite do-able.
You could even combine your Macquarie Uni line with the Olympic Park line by through-routing them. So you'd have Westmead to Carlingford and Olympic Park to Macquarie Uni. If each ran on the proposed 8min frequency, that'd be no more than a 4min wait to transfer eg if you wanted to go from Nth Parra (Benaud Oval) to the Uni. Or Bettington Rd to Westmead Hospital.
3:24
I love that shot. Especially how all the jacaranda trees stand out.
Been watching the entire project and cant wait for the political and residential will to replace the 600 Bus with a light rail extension to Castle Hill (asking for all the way to Hornsby would be too much!).
I do like your idea of a second line doing Macquarie to Parra; heaps of high rise going up on Herring Road already and linking it by rail to Eastwood and Parra is good news for all!
Great presentation.
Despite the link challenges from Carlingford to Epping (such a pity....seriously an enormous bummer) the rest of the planned routes will end up being fantastic for those areas serviced. Will take a heap of busses off the roads.
Imagine living around Olympic Park and being able to hop on a light rail to access Parramatta and living in the Carlingford corridor and doing the same. Amazing
I've been watching the excellent station profiles by Sydney Trains Vlogs. The Parra LR phase 1 is looking good - and based on those images I think extending up Carlingford road from Carlingford to Epping is absolutely doable.
Great video. The area where I grew up in at Northmead followed the Rogans Hill line. It had obviously closed down when I lived there (82 baby) but there were remnants of where the Rail was in my backyard.
you don't need to sacrifice bus lanes to run light rail on them. where i live in germany, in gelsenkirchen, there are dedicated lanes that run buses, trams, and light rail/metro sets all together. They have dual height platforms and offset bus stops. it works well and the frequency is great.
The Carlingford Road gap in train lines came up in conversation last week because my friend lives out that way. He said he has been talking about it for more than 20 or even 40 years!
Parramatta to Macquarie Park is a brilliant route and already reserved since the 1950s. It bewilders me why they don't build a road and light rail through it.
Always great to watch your videos and listen to your clear and informative comments and ideas. You need to be a future transport minister
Such great videos Sharath! And so exciting to know that a very smart young planner with a passion for public transport is developing solutions to all these sticky problems.
Yet another excellent video! It is so interesting that they didn’t keep the Carlingford line (I watched your video about it), but it is kind of inconvenient that the lightrail would have have to work it’s way through a couple suburbs, but it will definitely make Carlingford more accessible to the growing Parramatta city!
It doesn't make sense they killed the Carlingford train stop at the same time they built up the whole area with new buildings to increase people numbers. But a light rail is still something I guess, maybe they wanted the light rail to link up in that dog-leg route?
"Formerly a transfer at the relatively useless Clyde station..." - hahaha! Always producing good quality and informative content 👍 Keep up the good work, brother!
The other alternative is to connect Parramatta to the northwest and northeast with new metro lines. Something that remains in the official long term strategy. Also, whilst a light rail line from Macquarie Park to Parramatta looks nice, the reality is that this route would take so long as a light rail line that few will want to use it for the entire length.
Were there a metro connection between Parramatta and Castle Hill or Norwest then we could easily traverse Chatswood to Parramatta and in a reasonable time.
And of course there are numerous options as to where this metro line could go further south - including spanning all the other uncrossable zones between the inner west line, the Bankstown line, the East Hills line and the South line.
Edit there are also other reasonable propositions involving connecting Macquarie Park with Parramatta via an interchange with Metro West. That's at Olympic Park, Strathfield North, Burwood North, take your pick.
If there was a light rail extension from Carlingford to Epping, I think it would be cool if after travelling along Carlingford Road (yes the road isn't very wide, but it can fit 2 tram lanes and 2 car lanes, though then having platforms becomes a problem so potentially the tram tracks could be at the sides of the road so the grass space of the footpath could be converted to a platform at stops), it went underground for the Epping station. There's a slope near the east end of Carlingford Road that becomes flat after the Cliff Road intersection, but the light rail could continue downhill at the same slope to enter a cut-and-cover tunnel. Then it would turn south under Beecroft Road and have a cut-and-cover underground terminus, which would be accessed via an entrance from a converted building on the west side of the road, but also from an extension of the Epping station underground mezzanine level. This way you could exit the train station from the level in between the surface and underground platforms, and walk directly to the end of the light rail platforms, providing an efficient interchange from multiple train lines. It would be disruptive to construct but once constructed it would allow the roads around Epping to be used similarly to how they're used now.
Take a look at what Melbourne has done with some of their on-street running. This would need to be similar if you wanted to run Carlingford-Epping. Only problem is getting Sydney drivers used to stopping behind a tram when they stop at an on-street stop.
The problem at Carlingford is the hill between the station and the Carlingford road side of pennant hills road. If you could get a tunnel through that there is back streets and parkland you could run down to the south of Carlingford road to get to Epping.
@@waza987 if I recall correctly the original Parramatta-Epping link was going to be heavy rail tunnel from Carlingford to Epping.
@@skindog79 yes but you don’t really want to run light rail in a tunnel for that distance it kind of defeats the purpose of the light part. Also the heavy rail tunnel heads at Epping planned to be used for that were used up by the Northwest metro. For the light rail all you want to do is avoid it have to go up and down the steep hill at pennant hills road and then it can run on the surface to Epping.
There is no space on the sides of the road to build tram tracks, and there never will be with all the high density apartments built right up to the kerb recently. Buying back that land would bankrupt the government. Sydney never plans for the long term.
i grew up in telopea, 5 minutes walk from the station, and went to cumberland high school. for 6 years ('89-94) i caught the carlingford train, then walked down pennant hills road to school. i also used the train to go to dundas to visit my father, and for trips into parramatta or the city (spent a lot of time waiting at clyde). it had red rattlers on the line back then, and we used to hang out by the open door to smoke
While I like your proposal for the link through Eastwood to Macquarie Park (and the originally-proposed branch line), I can see a few issues with the part around Eastwood.
1. There is currently no direct link between Stewart St and Rutledge St, traffic being forced into a detour around the northern side of Brush Farm Park. I'm not sure of the specifics, but I understand that there was some kind of environmental protection issue related to building through the park. Somebody else on here may know more about it.
2. The map indicates running the line through the centre of Eastwood CBD, along Rowe St, and through the pedestrian mall. This would necessitate a level crossing of the heavy rail line - I can't imagine that CityRail would be happy with that, considering their efforts to eradicate level crossings from the network wherever possible. The only viable option would be to bypass the CBD by continuing along Rutledge St to First Ave.
3. I'm not sure how it would be economical to link between the Eastwood CBD and the 'County Road Corridor'. Blaxland Rd runs along the top of a ridge in this area (the intersection of First Ave being near its peak), with parts of Blaxland Rd and First Ave being seemingly too steep to run trams on. Even the eastern end of Rowe St may be questionable. This might necessitate a tunnel under Blaxland Rd to link either side of the ridge. Even if Rowe St was suitable, it would be necessary to resume quite a few properties on the eastern side of Blaxland Rd to provide a link through to Welby St and the corridor.
I'd suggest that there may be at least one option to extend the new line from Carlingford to Epping, avoiding Carlingford Road, that may be economically viable. It would involve a short tunnel beginning in Shirley St Reserve near the current terminus, going under the Pennant Hills Rd / Marsden Rd intersection and the Carlingford Village shopping centre, surfacing near the corner of Rickard and Keeler Sts, just north of Carlingford Public School (a small strip of school land, and/or a couple of backyards and one adjacent property may need to be resumed). It would then run along Keeler St or Barellan Ave to Pennant Pde (if using Barellan Ave, one property on Barellan Ave and one on Pennant Pde would need to be resumed). The line would then continue along the current 550 bus route. Stops would be at the eastern end of the previously-described tunnel, at Loftus Park and Midson Rd, with a terminus at the eastern end of Bridge St, less than a block from Epping railway station. The ground along this route is relatively flat (certainly flatter than any other east-west route in the Carlingford area) and should be suitable for trams - the only parts of the route that I would question are the slope of a short segment of Keeler St (which is why I suggested Barellan Ave as an alternative), and the eastern end of Boronia Ave may be too narrow due to trees lining either side.
The route via Eastwood wasn't proposed to run along Rowe St and the pedestrian mall on the western side of the rail line. It was proposed to run directly from Stewart St across Brush Farm Park via an arch bridge (actually on the southern fringe of Brush Farm Park) to a widened Rutledge St which runs along the fringe of the Eastwood Town Centre. There were alternative options from the widened 7 lane rail overbridge, built as part of the County Rd, to Blaxland Rd via either East Pde and Rowe St (East) or direct via First Ave, from where it would continue to Macquarie University Station via the reserved Eastwood County Rd corridor which has been in existence for over 70 years..
The County Rd reservation actually runs from the intersection of Kissing Point and Silverwater Roads along Stewart St, Rutledge St, First Ave and Welby St before linking with the open space reservation to Epping Rd. Most of the corridor is already owned by the government with only minimal whole or partial (for setbacks) resumption required. The County Rd provided for grade separated intersections at Marsden Rd, Blaxland Rd and Epping Rd, passing under Marsden and Blaxland Rds on a more gradual gradient, although I don't think it would be an issue for light rail if the intersections were at grade.
You can forget about extending the light rail from Carlingford Station to Epping as it's just not feasible, being too expensive and disruptive to traffic on the 4 lane Carlingford Rd, which would require extensive property resumption for widening. With the recent multi-storey apartment redevelopment on the northern side of Carlingford Rd in Epping, it's no longer possible to widen the road.. Tunnelling is not an option for light rail. There is also the issue of locating a light rail terminus in the Epping Town Centre, which would be close enough to the current station to allow for convenient interchange. The previous government dropped the idea.
Before May 6 2018 both 545 and 550 go to Chatswood. This makes the bus frequency in Chatswood west reduced after May 6 2018. It is before privatisation and COVID if you look at the date.
Excellent...so, looking at the easement behind me, it may become light rail to Macquarie Park. Better than a road. 👍👍👍
Hi Sharath, another fantastic video and is an area I’m studying to move into policy research and development down the road
You obviously put a lot of time research and passion into these topics and I would like to know if you have had,or intend on having the information and arguments heard by policy heads or political actors that agree with your assessment of the state of planning in Sydney.
I wonder, would you use these videos as examples to push for not only better planning but politicians and government departments to follow the results of things like feasibility studies in the future?
Thanks
Amber
You also could make the line to carlingford a shuttle. While not great if you build 3 tracks at dundas with two island platforms you could have a cross platform interchange in both directions.
As a former denizen of Sydney, I love your videos.
Keep it up - great content. I remember that sign up on one of the servos at Epping for years in the late 1990s, there were three servos at the time there where the apartment block opposite Coles is - Epping to Parramatta rail line opening in 20xx
Hopefully Castle Hill and Parramatta will join one day.. its quicker to get to Chatswood via metro and that'll go into the city next year too which will probably be quicker than going to Parramatta too.
Castle Hill to Parramatta is 10km. If Parramatta wants to be a true CBD it needs to cater to those 10km away and beyond.
Yes, however Castle Hill is very connected with the CBD, not Parramatta.
Most residents in Castle Hill/West Pennant Hills/Cherrybrook areas are professionals in banking, business, communication.
Grew up in Castle Hill and never ventured to Parramatta, neither did the family who all work in Chatswood or the city.
Maybe that will change in the future.
@@danieljohn589 have you ever caught the 600 in peak lol. The amount of routes that service Castle Hill/Norwest/Kellyville/Rouse Hill for trips to Parramatta is insane and most of those buses fill up.
Norwest Business Park is full of people from Parramatta region
@@mapletreegames9053 Yep you're right, especially Kellyville and the suburbs west of Castle Hill.
What I've seen is many professionals in Castle Hill have caught the bus into the city. Now many catch the metro!
Best of both worlds now with access to Parra and CBD. Windsor road is a mess agreed.
Old Windsor even worse 😢
When I've come back from Parramatta I can't wait to get onto Old Northern as I usually find it's less clogged in peak than than the other 2.
I think that the tracks of the tramline along George Street might still be in place under the bitumen, but not beyond Macarthur Street. They certainly were in the 1990s. Also a remnant of the Castle Hill tramline still existed just near the end of Platform 4 of Parramatta Station AND still connected to the rail line (as all steam tramlines were) right up to the 1990s. The remnant served a flour mill on the site, but it and the mill have since been replaced by the large Mantra Building.
Well presented and Fantastic Video, Castle Hill definitely needs the Light Rail to Parramatta instead of the buses. The only savior for Castle Hill is the Metro, however this does not help Baulkham Hills or Northmead.
Loving the content! Keep it up!
We need more north south train links , particularly parallel to the A3 and A6 roads which have huge traffic volumes
we could even do a Perth and run the trains down the median strip of the freeways - that would be cool to see on some of Sydney's congested roads
There's no room for new infrastructure and land prices are astronomical.
Great video!!
Great videos thanks
There is another way to build the proposed branch through Eastwood. Run a service that reverses at Dundas or build a short section to join the Carlingford and Eastwood branchs where they closly approach each other. running some Carlingford to Macquarie services. Building another line on the northern side of the river from Dundas would follow quite naturally.
Why can't Chris Minns just download road anarchy and turn on infinite money. That would solve everything
And that's the problem with today's over engineered light rail - it's expensive.. and needs a fairly high demand route to justify it
@@mark123655 but money doesn’t matter if you log out of the save, activate infinite money and reload the save
they could still build it between Dundas and Macquarie University and then have 2 tram services. One to Carlingford and the other to Macquarie University
That's still a possibility.
@@exray1 they could also extend the planned Olympic Park Branch all the way to Bankstown via part of the Bankstown shuttle and olympic park line. Maybe even turn the underground station at olympic park into a tram stop
loved the video. Your arguements made sense, I hope some on in transport NSW sees this and pays attention.
I'm a Parramatta resident, I reckon we need dangle trains (like a monorail but better) that way we could have new public transport that won't compete with already congested roads or traffic jams, in fact we could rise up above the traffic and get to our destinations faster.
A better idea would be a rail viaduct, or a tunnel, heck even a monorail would be better than a danglebahn.
great ep
I used to leave near the tramway avenue stop and take the train to Dundas (Dun- Dass) to get to school and later catching the train to Clyde to go into the city. Once you got to Clyde, you caught the train to Granville and changed trains to a faster city bound train.
Loving your thesis
I travelled on the Carlingford line once in 50 years too and then only because it was about to close. The new duplicated tracks will be underused now that travel to the CBD by first travelling west via Clyde is no more.
What's wrong with an underground connection between Carlingford, Carlingford Court, West Epping Park/Epping West/Epping South schools (Ryde Street) terminating at the vacant 242 Beecroft Road Epping with a pedestrian underpass to the station?
It is just as likely that Carlingford residents will prefer to travel to Macquarie including the university and beyond as they will plan to to travel to Parramatta. The government has had no problem with tunnels most of the way for the Western metro which is the most costly of all the metro dreams. Yet the prospect of tunnelling from Epping Station to Carlingford Station is not considered. The promised third lane on Epping Bridge is looking even less likely than ever given essential changes to the pedestrian overpass have not been budgeted for. Road congestion is destined to get worse.
Residential development is exploding at Carlingford and Epping in ways not contemplated when the original Parramatta to Chatswood line was being built. The route can still be seen on the Sydway Road Directory. There is much more residential development at these places than at Eastwood. Epping is already connected to the metro, and 8 minutes by metro from Castle Hill so why have another node on the network that is so close? The North Coast train used to stop at Eastwood every second service but that no longer happens for good reason.
probably not worth it for a light rail line. I think the government would be more open to build a tunnel for the metro, but then again they have decided to convert the Carlingford line to light rail.
@@aerime By rezoning for residential uses, the government closed down the (small) business parks in Epping; jobs left town and it is deserted during the day. Even on weekends, it is much the same while Carlingford Court, Macquarie Shopping Centre and even Eastwood are busy. Both Carlingford and Epping have turned into residential monocultures. People have to leave these suburbs for work, education and leisure. Epping has two major congested intersections. Any connection between these two centres and people who want to move through them cannot expect the roads to take any more traffic including trams.
I think the stage 2 if Parramatta light rail should have its own video (granted you have a good seven years to make it)
It got two main problems that hold back it's potential.
1. the two terminus stations (Parramatta and Olympic Park) will be served by Sydney Metro West meaning it wont actually be used by the people at either end of it.
2. the western end is at the heart of the Parramatta CBD. considering that stage one trams go right through, this could create a bottleneck of sorts as terminating trams and through trams have to share the two platforms at Parramatta.
Extending the line to Castle Hill as described in the video could solve both these problems and create another North-South rail route. 👍
A thing I find interesting about the Macquarie line is that they were originally planning to build a tram route to North Ryde from the Lane Cove/Pacific Highway Line of the North Shore Trams Network. The trams have now been gone for 64 years, but who knows... maybe we could have had a tram route from North Sydney to Macquarie and on to Parramatta or even Castle Hill!
Edit: 6:11 the official DVA app says DUN-DAHS
Not just to North Ryde but also take the trams to Epping. That's the reason why Epping Road had a wide reserve even when it was only two lanes in the 1920-1960s.
Interesting channel for the Sydney rail users!
8:16 - Sure. But that Western corridor has to be considered also for all the suburbs further northwest from Castle Hill all the way up to Box Hill and Marsden Park, not just that triangle. Currently the Metro goes to Tallawong and will one day need to be extended further to the point before the forest (beyond which there will be no more residential development). The number of houses and flats growing in Rouse Hill and beyond mean more traffic now and into the future.
Very interesting that Eastwood has an empty set of land for possible rail, I didn't know that.
Epping seems like a key station, but to be honest that traffic and bridge area on Beecroft Road, Epping Road and Blaxland Road are chock-a-block full already - I don't see how it can take any further rail development and there are numerous high-rises already built up near the station to crowd it all further. Further rail connections can't go through there I reckon so it will have to use all the current tracks only.
Both places I've lived in - Carlingford Station has been much maligned, as has Castle Hill (although the Metro does finally right a long-standing neglect thanks to 16 years of previous State Labor govt inaction!). It's always mystified me why Parramatta still isn't reconnected to Castle Hill as the original tram line was about a hundred years ago - build it and they will come, surely? But instead they put the cart before the horse and don't build it because it doesn't have enough people. There is a reason I don't go to Parramatta from Castle Hill - the parking is too hard. I'm waiting for rail to appear but the bus will have to do I guess.
In the end, it is in their best economic interests that these rail services make profit or else it will not be feasible. But sometimes I think the vision is so narrow that they don't realise that building the rail can generate the growth; instead they think they need existing crowds before the rail can be justified. Things haven't been the same since the years of the Sydney Harbour Bridge and its foresight to have six lanes long before it was fully used.
Finally - it's Dun-DASS! Always has been, at least since the 80s when I first came across it as a kid. I've never heard anyone say it otherwise, only the dumb translator computer apps.
I'm curious to know what you think about the Sydney Olympic Park route. It is meant to go up Australia Avenue. This will be cut off during the Easter Show. In other words, the light rail will not connect for at least 1/12 of the year (Easter Shown construction/usage/dismantling) with an important last leg of its route. Thoughts?
Light rail to castle hill would have been interesting but windsor road is too busy and doesnt have the room to expand and keep 4 lanes for vehicles. Im excited by stage two of the light rail more than stage 1 I think they picked a good route for that bit.
Great stuff. A few points.
Why Carlingford rather than Epping? The previous government preferred ribbon-cutting photo ops to actually improving transport and we will be paying the bill for that for generations.
LR will greatly improve Carlingford zone to Parramatta - but Carlingford to Sydney CBD becomes a nightmare. Restoring Camelia ro Clyde or Granville and/or metro interchange at Camelia would fix this.
Your route looks great - but maybe the sunk cost might make Carlingford to Epping better value now. Single track on Carlingford Rd could provide an OK service and not take up too much 'precious' car space, at the other end of the spectrum, 3km cut and cover would not be THAT expensive compared to the cost of road infrastructure in that area.
Heavy rail Parramatta to Bankstown via the forgotten link at Auburn would be possible TODAY. And would especially be a great asset after the Bankstown metro is running.
Something needs to be done from carlingford to macquarie park. That’s very very important😢
Just stumbled across this channel today already binged on about 3 hours of video's great channel informative look forward to seeing more #newsubcriber
You are doing such a great job! If only politics and transport agencies listened to you!!
You should show in the future light rail network that the line should extend from parramatta all the way to Sydney
BRO GOT A SHOUTOUT BY THE BIG RMTRANSIT
CONGRATS BRO
Light rail is good but can only ever act as a tributary to the heavy rail (Commuter train/Metro) backbone of Sydney's transportation network. Lets figure out where to place our future heavy rail stations and then see where we can put future light rail projects in support of this future backbone.
Don't ever stop using the closing credits music, that's half the reason I come here (Yes I saved the song when you mentioned what it was...possibly in a Q&A...or did I shazaam it?)
I also hope they extend stage 2 all the way to Strathfield and eventually the L1 line.
I’d argue that whilst yes branch lines have its faults, they largely gives way to 1-2 minute frequencies along Swanston street in Melbourne, and 10 minute frequencies along 8/9 tram routes during peak hours.
Hi Building Beautifully, I have found some problems with your proposal.
1. Unless a tunnel is built, there is no possible corridor for the light rail to follow to reach Eastwood Station. Even worse, it would be even harder for the light rail to get onto Edgar Street from Eastwood Station and get to the reserved land.
2. The reserved lands to the east of Eastwood are actually quite steep, and I don't think a light rail would be able to climb them.
And probably the most important problem:
The light rail runs through Brush Farm Park, which is actually an extremely steep forest home to lots of critically endangered species. If a light rail were to be built there (which would require a bridge), the endangered species would die out.
1. The Feasibility Study linked in Building Beautifully's notes above, recommended a dogleg route to Eastwood Station via East Parade and Rowe Street East, so I'd agree that getting the Light Rail to Eastwood is problematic without a tunnel, and the dogleg and then difficult Edgar Street connection illustrates this. I think that any diversion is unnecessary, and would slow what is otherwise a very direct route. So, my suggestion would be not go to Eastwood station at all, but get Eastwood station to go to the tram. That is, extend the two island platforms 45 or so metres south until they intersect the existing pedestrian tunnel (the out of station one on Rowe Street, not the in-station one), open a second station entrance within the tunnel (cf. Paramatta Station), ticket gating new station ramps and lifts. Then mirror the existing northern pedestrian ramps south towards the road bridge, extending them above ground to road (bridge) level, with the tram stop located on the First Avenue Bridge. Provide new under-road stepped access from the tunnel direct to Eastwood Mall on the western side and Rowe Street East (Koreatown). So, basically the station and the shopping centre are now 120 metres from the tram stop, without any route diversion. In your terms, this solution provides a tunnel for "free". Regarding Edgar Street, the County Road Zoning on the NSW Planning Portal Map (www.planningportal.nsw.gov.au/spatialviewer/#/find-a-property/address "2 Edgar Street, Eastwood" and zoom out) makes clear that the zoning allows a wide clearance through resumption, and if the tram route stays on First Avenue that works well.
2. The L2 Light Rail manages the climb from Alison Road to Randwick without trouble, and the grades are generally less than that east of Eastwood, though of course there would be bridges for the creek crossings to get reasonable grades.
3. Brush Farm Park is quite elevated on the western side (100m elevation at the Stewart Street/Marsden Road intersection en-au.topographic-map.com/map-bvz1h/Eastwood/?center=-33.79773%2C151.08216&zoom=15), so the tram viaduct proposed in the Feasibility Study could clear the park by 15 to 20m, before rejoining on Rutledge Street half way to Darvall at about 91m elevation. You would lose some big trees, but this would otherwise avoid major damage at the canopy level, retaining much of the cover and animal trackways.
So sad. What could have been. Parramatta to Castle Hill and Macquarie Park works have been a dream ride to somewhere special
If the original route had been built and the Carlingford line had remained, patronage on the Carlingford line would have likely become even more dismal than it already was as many of its passengers would have found the new light rail to be far more useful. This would have likely created the rather weird scenario of a tram having higher patronage than the train its paralleling. With that in mind, I understand the decision to convert the line. I actually think the proposal presented in this video is the ideal solution, even more so than keeping the Carlingford line and building the original proposed route. It would mean that we would have finally found a good use for both the Carlingford line and the reserved county road corridor.
Your proposal would make my life easier trying to get from Hornsby to Carlington for the next 2 years every weekday, if they don't fix the uncrossable my life is gotta get harder
honestly, i feel like carlingford road is perfectly wide enough for upgrade to light rail to epping. its not much wider than areas of george street excluding pre-light rail foot paths and while kissing point road is honestly perfect width, it would be much less disruptive than trying to widen rutledge street which is too boxed in by existing housing compared to the gap you would have to fill from old carlingford station to carlingford road, and that could be achieved by widening and meeting penant hills roat at-grade on what is currently the bridge (plenty of leeway for widening til its wide enough at Marsden Rd) and then chuck a right onto carlingford road.
You could terminate in epping by going up beecroft road to that absolute mess of an intersection and making langston pl a bus/lightrail only area which eliminates some complication for traffic (or just blow up that area next to where what is now the metro used to pop up out of epping and follow thru up to hornsby and use that as the terminus). Even crazier you could continue past beecroft road and follow epping road all the way to macquarie park and terminate somewhere there.
If you really wanted to be crazy though you could continue the current carlingford plan, but have a branch line that goes from olympic park, meets the carlingford line at camelia and splitting off at dundas and following the original proposed route along kissing point road
12:44 Bus lanes don't have to be "sacrificed" for trams. Buses can share them, including the platforms, giving level boarding! Look at Queens Bridge St, Southbank Melbourne (no platforms yet). And many train-replacement buses use the tram grid in the CBD there too.
As someone who grew up there, Dund-ass, not Dund-us is the usual pronunciation.
I've thought that the Rawson st Car Park in Epping could be developed into a sunken tram station with commercial and multi-story carpark and a pedestrian tunnel connecting to the train station, with a tram tunnel cut into Boronia park drawn to the Shirley St Reserve. Loftus square become the dead centre of the tunnel with the opportunity for an underground station, or even make Hermington St a big roundabout severing Willoughby St and the whole area excavated into a sunken station.
I'm a really big fan of the Australian model of light rail, where light rail is complementary to other higher order modes of transit rather than supplanting them.
While Carlingford line passengers will more easily reach Parramatta, those bound for Strathfield and beyond have been ignored. Which destination has the greatest number of riders, I don’t know. I would be interested to know what gradient is too steep for ‘light rail’. Certainly the trams of old managed 1 in 8.
As for the term ‘light rail’ it is no more than a sales pitch so that older people don’t think they are getting back the rattly old trams removed from their cities some decades ago. The vehicles are simply trams.
I would be fully in favour of this Western Sydney/Parramatta Light Rail network extension as like with your proposed Sydney Rail network it’d make the commutes of so many Sydney Siders far more easier than it currently is now.
However with that said I’m so hyped for the opening of both Stage 1 of the Parramatta Light Rail network and the Sydney Metro City line later this year.
This almost makes me froth with rage. Why they wouldn't connect Castle hill with Parramatta via light rail is inexplicable. No doubt the corrupt Hills Council had a hand in it.
Love your videos. Hopefully you'll end up an ethical town planner some day.
I’m still waiting for northern beaches public transport, getting from Mona Vale to Manly or Dee Why shopping centre is painful and the B line doesn’t change much. I know northern beaches doesn’t want it and the demand is too low but I hope they change their mind
Poor Clyde. My grandmama's family used to work on the railways, and back in the day, Clyde was the stop for rail workers. History now..
I'll guess that they didn't do Carlingford to Epping as they only went as far in that direction as was required to replace the existing Carlingford line, ie it was a case of not taking away rather than adding in that direction
I get the feeling theres a bunch of rich councillors that reside in that area that dont
want it ruined with dirty "public transport"
Carlingford to Epping is a no-brainer. This extension needs to be done, can’t just end at Carlingford. Epping is a major interchange.
Not feasible
I live along the 545 bus route in Dundas and go to Macquarie University, dreaming that the branch to the metro got built.
I was wondering if anyone knows how he makes the maps they are very good
I lived in Mac. Park and considered the 545 bus into Parra at the time. One and a half hours! What a joke.
I live at Carlingford now. There is a bus every 15 minutes (or less in peak hour) on PH Rd into Parra. No need for the light rail. Now, when I need to go to the city, I drive to Eastwood.
This should be Stage 3/4 alongside an extension to Castle Hill.
Yep. Replace the 601 or 600 bus routes with a light rail.
I made a Proposal of the Epping Road Light Rail And this is a Good Proposal. First off. It will start at the Interchange at Carlingford on Lloyds Avenue. Then Go Along the Cumberland Highway then turn right onto Carlingford Road and stopping at Carlingford Court, The Line continues until a stop at Epping West then towards Epping Station on the Busy Beecroft Road. Then turn left on the Busy Epping Road to Epping Public School at the Intersection, Then continuing until Epping Boys High School then Marsfield and then into Macquarie University then Macquarie Centre, Macquarie Park then turn right onto A3 until back on Epping Road until Delhi Road and all the way to Great North Walk, Lane Cove West, Lane Cove and then turn right onto the Busy Pacific Highway to Gore Hill and turn left onto Herbit Street to Terminate at Saint Leonards Station which is an Interchange. This will be Easier for People to get to Parramatta from Epping and Beyond. This will be a Good Proposal. Easier to get to School, Work, And Anywhere Beyond Epping.
Where did you get the footage around 9.53 in the video? Looks like it's been taken at dawn on a Sunday during the middle of lockdown 😆 Seriously, I've never seen Beecroft Road that quiet!
People in my Subrub of Epping would either take the Bus or had to Change at Strathfield for T1, T2 or Blue Mountains Line to Parramatta,
I remember a time when they wanted to make carlingford court a major shopping hub. And also promoted the new apartment blocks being close to carlingford mall which they said was an Asian cultural hub.
Wonder what happened there? 🤔
Why the 4min assumption through the Parra spine 11:55. St Kilda Rd / Swanston St manages 1min intervals. If you made it 2min, it'd be 12min on the L4 which is quite feasible, and 8min to Mac Uni. And why have every 2nd one to Olympic Park? You could tweak it so they're spread more evenly. Say a 2.5min frequency on the spine, that'd be a 7.5min freq on each line if they're spread evenly, which is pretty similar to the best non-peak Melb tram lines (outside areas where they converge). This could be as good as every 3min in peak with a Swanston St / St Kilda Rd mimicking 1min frequency shared through the spine.
Can you do a ferry video? Like why don’t we have ferries to Rhodes, Birkenhead Point, Lane Cove, Balmoral and places like The Spit and Middle Harbour? And is it possible to have a ferry to Pittwater or the Central Coast, and if not why? I don’t drive so the closest I can go to the Central Coast is a train to Gosford, but if I want to go to Terrigal, The Entrance or anywhere before Newcastle Beach, you need a car. I don’t know anything about ships but I love taking the ferries in Sydney, and surely even a little ferry like the one to Bundeena would be handy.
THANKS FPR VIDEO
TALKING LAST 60 YEARS ABOUT TRANSPORT PARRAMATTA TO EPPING BY TRAINS WITH VERY SINGLE NSW STATE GROVERNMENT IN POWER
I AM 65 YEAR STILL NOT BUILD LINE .
KNOW BEEN JOKE OF NSW TRANSPORT AFTER WAR2 BUILD THIS LINE
The journey time from Carlingford to Parramatta Metro will be over 15 minutes. Even the best possible alignment and optimistic speed assumptions for an extension from Carlingford to Epping would push the full journey from Epping to Parramatta to over 25 minutes or more I think. I reckon the Eastwood alignment might have been similar on speed.
When Metro West opens, it will be about 8min journey time from Parramatta to North Strathfield, and then a T9 Northern Line service to Epping is about 16min, so assuming the Northern Line gets a more frequent service its likely that trip will be faster and more comfortable, though I do like trams.
Longer-term, I think they might look to convert the line from Glenfield to Merrylands to Metro, then tunnel from Merrylands straight under Parramatta to North Parramatta, interchange station at Carlingford then on to Epping. Metro could give you a trip time under 10 minutes from Epping to Parra, LR could never get even close and I think this was their thinking.
Do you have a source for that MetWest info? I can't see Parra to North Strathfield in 8 minutes being realistic.... considering the exptress trains from Parra to Strathfield are currently 11+ minutes.
@@davidfinch7418 That isnt published, what is published is that Parramatta to Hunter Street will be 20 minutes, each station is about a 1 minute penalty and North Strathfield to Parramatta is less than half the full Metro alignment. So I guessed 8 minutes, it might be a fraction quicker. Parra to Strathfield on the legacy network the trains are barely getting up to 80kmh plus goes a fair bit out of the way further south.
Assuming your assumptions are correct, there is more to it than the time between two stops. The bus is even slower by the way. There are customers to be served at stops along the way. Reducing private car travel to schools is a worthy aim.
When metro west opens we will all be much older and don't expect that to be quick as more people expect to join the service at intermediate yet-to-be-announced stops.
@@listohan 1. Sure, and I'm not against LR at all, I live in Dresden at the moment, there are 12 tram lines all with 10 minute frequencies all over thr city, I know how good a good tram network is for a city. The eastern part of Berlin kept trams and is far more attractive in that respect than the western part which is now slowly building back tram lines.
2. The bus is slow because its stuck in traffic and dont have enough doors, buses can be fast but get slowed down in traffic and by slow boarding at busy sections. Give the buses full traffic priority on all their routes - not every road needs to cater for all modes, some should prioritise cycling, some for buses, some for trams and others for cars. We should choose which cater for what and design it so, Dutch cities have mastered this.
3. Metro West tunnelling started last week, should open in 2030. If you started planning and approvals for LR extension to Epping now, it would be at least 5 years by the time you could even think about opening the extension, by which time Metro West will almost be open.
4. How are you proposing to get to the schools from the currebt terminus? People will fight tooth and nail against taking lanes away to extend LR, if you put it underground you might as well build the Metro which is much faster, cheaper to run high frequencies, offers better network expansion and integration (currently the Glenfield to Merrylands corridor is a massive pain for the network and as a result gets terrible frequencies). You could still have another station between Epping and Carlingford.
5. Pure speculation and nothing to do with reality: the contracts and alignment have all been finalised, they can only really add a stop at possibly Silverwater and even that will cost tonnes in reconfiguration and ammendments now (though im potentially actually for this). West of North Strathfield nothing will change beyond that, Ive heard this from a tunnelling expert and insider. Changing anything further now would cost billions, we should put those billions into new Metros and LR where it makes sense. Its possible that the Carlingford-Epping LR extension really would fall into tgat category, but i think there is a good case that it doesnt which I laid out here.
@@kyletopfer7818 I've been to Berlin three times and to Dresden and it was those visits that confirmed the value of network connections. But we are turning our back on that with Stage 1 by not extending the branch line to one of the best-connected stations at Epping.
Epping West is a large primary school in high demand. Epping South is a new overflow school with growth planned for already. They are at each end of Ryde Street. The refurbished nearby Epping West Park is midway between Epping and Carlingford. The original Parramatta to Chatswood line is shown as passing very close to the park. It needs to be served by good public transport for the families destined to live in the Epping and Carlingford highrises needing autonomous access to such facilities. Australians, in the capitals at least, need to behave more like Europeans when it comes to children's independence.
Rogans were my ancestors. Id love to see the train station opened again
now imagine if it was a metro
It's entirely possible that in the future, your proposed Parramatta - Dundas line may become a reality, meaning that commuters will have two different ways to get from Parramatta to Dundas by light rail.
However, the Parramatta to Castle Hill line probably won't be justified for another 30 years or so. As a regular commuter along Windsor Road I can say that even during peak times, the 600 and 601 handle the passenger volumes quite well and increasing service frequencies from a bus every 10-15 minutes to a bus every 5 minutes during peak will be more than enough for quite a long time. Furthermore, Windsor Road isn't very wide and adding tram tracks through the Church Street - Windsor Rd - JRD - Briens Rd intersection will only lengthen traffic jams and potentially encourage illegal behaviour (as I've seen all too often with cars using the existing bus lanes to queue-jump).
Possibly the biggest issue is how the buses are going to continue to operate while the tracks are laid on the roads. We saw this with the L2/L3 where many buses were curtailed to the QVB and the 555 was scrapped. Particularly if the Wilde Avenue bus lanes are converted to light rail, there are going to be extremely heavy delays for commuters into Parramatta.
While I like both the metro and the new light rail. It is such a shame that they didn't keep the rail link and the T6 and bridge the gap between carlingford and epping. Could then have easily extended the t6 service to run from parramatta to chatswood via that corridor. Would have been such a great connection...
Oh well. Too late now.
What if you treated the 'L5' as a shuttle service? With high-frequency trams going back and forth between Dundas and Macquarie Uni, rather than a branch connecting to the 'L4'. Sure, it's not as seamless - but more feasible? What do you think?
make ‘L4’ the shuttle
edit: Macquarie University is a much stronger terminus (a place where people actually wanted to go), than suburbia like Carlingford. That place would benefit more from through service with more passengers.
The Light Rail revolution has already transformed Sydney CBD and the Eastern Suburbs (and the increasing patronage is one reason), so it is about time that Parramatta will do the same. Unfortunately, it seems that the government didn't do justice for commuters there. The fact that they claim that patronage is too low to justify building the route is short-sighted. Route 545 from Parramatta to Macquarie Park via Eastwood is packed and even if it is run 10 minutes every day, that may not be enough in the future.
A light rail line to Macquarie Park will be a game-changer and enables true direct transport service to Parramatta that is not a bus. Great public transport can be designed well, but low patronage shouldn't be an excuse not to build in the first place. That makes me thinking, "what happened to the proposals for light rail to The Bays, Green Square and Bondi Beach?"
I agree with regard to the demand for travel from Macquarie Park to Parramatta via Eastwood on the 545 bus route, notwithstanding it takes the meandering route through Dundas Valley to Telopea. The former 550 limited more direct afternoon route via Kissing Point Rd should have become an additional full-time service.
When Transport for NSW took over planning for the Parramatta Light Rail, they completely ignored Parramatta Council's earlier independent feasibility study and didn't even include the preferred options of the Macquarie University via Eastwood and Castle Hill routes on the priority list. It beggars belief. Their brief was after all to provide a light rail link from Parramatta to Macquarie Park (via Carlingford), and it's fallen well short of that. It's a big fail.