Marvel's Editing Is the Cruelest Cut of All | The Backdrop
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- Опубліковано 4 лют 2024
- If you’re even casually familiar with film or television, you’re familiar with the
phrase “saved in the edit.” Editing is something of an invisible artform, and it’s
rarely given the attention or credit that it deserves.
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You talking about Carol being a buzzkill and that the movie should've started with her Hala war actually reminded me of a situation where this was done properly.
In the testing for Finding Nemo before some pivotal final changes, audiences just were not responding well to Marlin at all. Audiences couldn't sympathize with him and were left annoyed and frustrated with his screentime for a majority of the movie.
Why?
Because the scene with Coral and the barracuda was originally a flashback that would occur near the end of the second act, instead of being shown to us right at the front. And the poor screening audience reception to him was what prompted the decision to move the flashback to just be the cold open.
It just sounds like such a similar situation with Carol here.
Great example, actually!
Having an opening montage of Dar-ben taking over Hala also could've really helped both establish Hala's struggles and set up Dar-Ben as a genuine force to be reckoned with.
That's what bugs me about a lot of modern TV, actually. That shows start with the hint that eventually all will be revealed... but for now, enjoy these paper cutouts of characters arranged on a whiteboard of possibility and mystery. It's like I can hear the director and writer whispering "Aren't you _curious_? Don't you want to know what's happening? We'll tell you in episode 4!"
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a good payoff, but I want something to be invested in to begin with. Give me a character rather than a cipher. Severance is my go to. I'm glad people like it, but after watching an episode of a milquetoast entity... sure, I'm curious but I don't care.
Wow. That was great. Never really considered it that way before, but I kinda get it now.
Interesting!
This reminds me of a lesson I learned in theater:
If you only half commit to the bit/character then you will look dumb/awkward on stage. But if you fully commit then the audience will enjoy the show.
It appears marvel isn't fully committing to the bit with these, and then is surprised when the appear bad on stage
Reading you put it that way, that's what the singing scenes in the Marvels needed - they should have gone full Bollywood / musical theatre in that part, rather than half-heartedly allude to that kind of thing, and it would have been a standout!
Man, Second Wind proving yet again that you need talented people not corporate overloads to make quality content. Another feather in the cap of collectively leaving the Escapist was a great idea.
Seriously. This, ALL of this was at the Escapist?
This man did a more effective, fair, and concise industry critique than most videos that take an hour plus to attempt the same thing, and this is the first I've heard of his work.
💯
@@PyreThis is honestly my favourite thing about Darren. I get so annoyed when I see a 50 min mark on a video essay. Like I don't want to hear you ramble on for that long
In other news, water is wet.
Talented corporate overlords are still better than talentless people.
I saw the Marvels over two months ago, and I left the theater asking my friends if they noticed how badly edited the wheat field scene had been -- surely there's at least a minute of lines and reactions chopped out to go from mournful confession to all's well that fast. I've been wondering why nobody online was ranting about that editing work. There was so much warmth and cleverness showing through around the edges of ugly cuts, and for two months I haven't seen anyone talk about it. Thank you for this essay!
I've barely been aware of it until now, but the main takeaway I got from this essay is wondering whether there's an actual good film hiding in there. Will there be a Snyder Cut one day?
@@bewilderbeestie I doubt they'll reincorporate whatever the editors cut out. Considering that the actors have already talked about things that were filmed and then left out (including a significant part of the musical number), there's a lot that could be included as bonus material. That means dropping it on the Blu-Ray without FX, though, not spending millions to merge the footage back into the film. So, sadly, probably not.
I quite enjoyed Ms Marvel and Captain Marvel but felt that a lot of Rambeau was just missing. Don't get me started on Dar-Ben, no idea how the villain is supposed to be interesting when so little effort was put into them. Felt like Marvel said 'they know what a Ronin is right? That'll do.'
@@carly7522 Yeah, Monica arc was half-missing, and I can't say for certain that it was just because of the cuts. Maybe taking the least developed character and having her make a big sacrifice, when Carol was specifically looking to atone for a past misdeed, was the wrong choice. Not that I'm saying Carol needed to be dropped into another universe; maybe she could have believed it was necessary, but Monica could have figured out a way to use science know-how plus light powers to rescue her.
Dar-Ben . . . I guarantee a scene or two were missing from her story, probably scenes where she came off as a bit more sympathetic. That would have made her behavior in fight scenes make more sense: it's her hatred of Carol that made her such a villain, over and above even the usual Kree behavior patterns. They wouldn't have had scenes of her being decent around coworkers and trying to be reasonable if they meant for her to be female Ronan, but they didn't leave enough in the film to really express her unique character traits.
... the director literally peaced out on the movie before it was done.
Editing is seriously underrated. Glad you were able to get this out.
Edit: Damn. You're completely right. Studios, and in particular Disney, keep ruining their own products, huh?
I'm pretty ooga-booga when it comes to movies. I can't tell the director, script, editing.
When I don't like a movie I can't explain why 😅
@@archersterling6726 And that's okay.
Art is precisely where you enjoy the vibe without having to study to know the ins-and-outs of it. That's the creator's job anyway.
Though I will always encourage people to acquire media literacy so they can notice when some work comes up short in its intention and especially when it's being manipulative in its themes and elements, like any time the U.S. military is portrayed jingoistically in any movie partially funded by them.
But again, just enjoying something is totally fine in most cases.
Did you edit the comment intentionally as a way of highlighting something like a joke or an opinion, or did you just do the edit just to add in something that you cut? The video and the use of an edit on your comment makes me intrigued as to what it should have been.
@@archersterling6726and this is where the critic and other skilled practitioners fit in, with their greater breadth and depth of knowledge of the art - with a foot in the art world and a foot in ours, they can help us find out for ourselves why some things appeal to us and others do not 😊
@@cormano64 Thanks, feels good to know that.
And luckily most of UA-cam nowadays is very aware of the use of art as a medium and not as a passion. Thankfully lol
I hadn't been able to articulate why I haven't watched an MCU movie lately, but i think this was why. These movies used to be big events with weighty, if not super original, narratives. Now it just feels like a bunch of characters making quips completely divorced from their surroundings.
I think another part of that is degeneration through formula reliance.
Take Iron man for instance. it had some nice quips, some memorable lines (hell I still people occasionally mention "a bot of scraps" sometimes), and a fun experience overall.
But at some point those elements that worked in movies like Iron man became the ENTIRE movie.
The problem with this is you can't have a good movie of ONLY quips and funny moments. You use those quips and fun lines to help lighten the tone as needed. The actual story needs to take center stage and be paced as such.
I mean just look at the absolute disaster taht was She-hulk. Now that show has MULTIPLE problems, but just to pick on one issue for a moment ... the fucking tweerking scene ... they obviously did it to have a funny querky moment. But it wasn't earned at all, it wasn't needed to adjust the tone or humanize a character that felt too serious. It was just done to be a meme-able moment in hopes that it would make the show get more attention.
It's all about exploiting the formula for maximum profits and it's gone too far.
Again there are other issues plaging stuff like Marvel movies as well like just general lack of focus, lack of a charismatic lead like Iron man to bring things together, and of course forced "message" issues.
Just one of these things would cause issues but put them together and you get current marvel. Unfortunately current hollywood is so full of itself that it tends to blame other elements for it's failures and refuses to change.
It starts feeling "Let's churn out Products" instead of "Let's make a film/show"
It's not the editing, it's the writing. "But that's a topic for a whole other video..."
@@metazoxan2 the original formula included things like stakes and character arcs. The first Iron Man had Yinsen dying in the cave containing Tony's box of scraps. It included Tony saying to Pepper Pots "I don't have anybody else".
People are saying She-Hulk is following the same tried and true Marvel formula, but I don't see it. At all.
@@jeronimo196 It's a hyper fixation of the most marketable and easily replicatable aspects of the formula.
They rely on the easily writable aspects of the formula (just steal some meme or joke the kids are into and throw it in) and neglect the actual writing aspect.
She-hulk did attempt to have stakes ... it just did it poorly.
So the formula is there but the aspects given the most focus are the ones that required the least amount of effort to reproduce.
Second wind has been such a boon for these writers - through all the rebranding of existing series and the adding of new ones, I have been tuning in to every single upload. On the escapist channel I really only watched ZP and cold take.
This video was great! Really well researched
Not enough essayist mention Duck Amuck for the perfection that it is. Kudos!
Duck Amuck is the greatest cartoon ever made.
@@thechuckjosechannel.2702One of the greatest things ever made!
@@Darren_Mooney yes it is. The Greatest piece of media ever made.
Editting on a video about the importance of editting was on point. Noice.
Yep, go Jesse!
Your point about the length of a show and streaming metrics is really interesting. It's been known for a while in the music streaming scene: you get paid in full when your song is streamed in full. So you open strong, and finish fast, effectively sucking all the air out of the final product (and making it perfect to be sampled in tiktoks).
I did not know that about music. Fascinating.
@@Darren_Mooney quoting form a Billboard article "In 2019, the average length for Hot 100 top 10s is a brisk 3:07, a drop of 30 seconds from 2018’s average of 3:37. That contrasts with recent years, as the average top 10 song length fluctuated by only 11 seconds (from 3:32 to 3:43) over 2015-17.
Songs under three minutes account for 39% of all Hot 100 top 10s in 2019, a major increase in share. Top 10s that concise gradually grew in prominence from 2016 through 2018, from 4% of all top 10s to 9% to 12% in those three years, before surging more than threefold year-over-year so far in 2019."
@@Oh_Nanners This is awesome! Thank you so much. Love learning stuff in the comments.
Darren, I think this became your most viewed video in less than 48 hours. Congrats, and keep up the good work, sir.
Cheers! Thank you.
I just watched The Marvels for the first time, and while it was quite good, it definitely felt like ~half an hour was missing. Maybe we can get an extended director's cut some day.
I just watched it today. It was hilarious, but yeah, the plot was a poorly-edited mess.
"Movies are too long."
Movies should be exactly as long as they need to be and no longer. If audiences are saying that movies are too long, it means that you're wasting their time with scenes that aren't engaging. "Too long" is a matter of how the movie feels, not how the movie actually is.
Yep. And, as the video points out, audiences are turning out for longer movies. So audiences don’t really have a problem with movie lengths, I think. (Online commenters do, but online commenters have lots of problems with lots of things that audiences are fine with.)
Okay, but if we're going to have these over 90min movies, bring back the intermission because some of us want to use the bathroom without missing anything
@@Darren_Mooney Online commenters suffer from the tangible details effect. They don't understand how stories work, so they latch onto tangible details of the film when looking for blame. The result is that they almost always latch onto the wrong thing.
@@cheezemonkeyeater Yep. I think a lot about the argument that plot-hole nitpick culture is rooted in an effort to couch a subjective response (“this didn’t work for me”) with an objective criticism (“there was a logical plot hole, ergo it is bad”).
@@Iteriaintermission happened when film reels had to be manually changed over, requiring a small team to work the projector. If your bladder can't hold out for only two and a half hours, just watch at home and pause the thing.
A shame the people editing the snowman didnt watch this or even Folding Ideas take on the weird mess the feature turned out too be.
I love his video on the editing of Suicide Squad
Issue with the snowman if I remember right is that they had no where near enough footage, like they'd only shot half of what they'd planned for the film or something, and so the editing did what they could to cobble something together, and shoved it out the door
Thelma Schoonmaker, one of the best editors of all time, took her crack at the snowman... not a lack of editorial skill, the director was just incompetent and did not finish the movie.
@@stryke-jn3kv This. I think the director himself mentioned that they couldn't shoot a significant portion of the film so in the editing they had to cut stuff that was in the trailers but made no sense in the movie.
@@castlefactory8682 calling Thomas Alfredson, the director of Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy, incompetent is quite the reach. Apparently the entire endeavor was a cluster from start to finish, not one single person's fault.
Yeah, it's not that the run time of the movie is long, its the feeling of the movie being too long or short. But no matter what, even if the run time of The Marvels was cut shorter than it was, I felt obligated to finish it instead of being motivated to.
In the immortal words of Charles Kelly "I can't follow any of this". He didn't follow the movie even before it had started, but that's besides the point. If you can't tell a compelling story even after editing, and you had hundreds of millions of moneys to make that movie, then what the hell are you doing? Throwing millions at a crowd that is more interested in the popcorn than the movie is turning out to be a good short term investment, but a bad long term one.
I'd argue a good film doesn't give you motivation to follow it, it just immerses you in the world and lets irl time become irrelevant. If you're thinking to yourself in the middle of a movie "yo how much longer is this" that is in and of itself a sign the film lacks some degree of verisimilitude
(not necessarily saying good movies don't have a couple moments or that one red flag immediately means bad film tho, I got ADHD lol sometimes the mind just does shit)
At the same time, I kinda sorta get why they went into "let's get this over with" mode with the Marvels. They are very much working at the tail end of a long movie franchise over here, and none of these characters are on fans' A-list so they're not starting off on a great note. Then comes the problem that these characters are even more meaningless unless people have watched multiple movies and two different streaming series, one of which was kind of a flop already. And now they're doing this heavy story with big stakes (which also require you to have seen Secret Invasion sorta) with yet another throwaway Marvel villain that people will forget about an hour after watching the movie. Not to mention that most tropes and roughly the same plot elements have all already been done before better in previous Marvel installments, if not multiple times.
Sure, they could've done *a lot* better. But this was one hell of a uphill struggle from conception. It was simply not a good idea to make this movie in the first place, it had really nothing going for it that could've given it a push in the back.
While true I think the opposite can also have the same effect.
Good elements of a movie can be cut down to the point where they become meaningless and feel like a waste of time.
A story may no longer seem worth telling when cut down to the most basic plot points.
@@madeliner1682 I sort of agree?
Of course it's a bad thing when you're getting bored during a movie but some stories just take a bit more effort from you to keep you paying attention but that can pay off. I do prefer that over the kind of story that constantly works very hard to keep you engaged but then by the end you're kinda unsatisfied and wondered what really happened (that's how I often feel about J. J. Abrams).
I'm a fellow ADHD brain and I have to say that learning about a lot of film making specifics like camera movement, lighting, editing, etc. as well as understanding story-telling (which is so complicated) helps me from getting distracted simply because there is more to pay attention to. I can fall back on it when a movie isn't really fully holding my attention (which isn't easy) but I'll still be engaged. Even when a movie really isn't working for me I won't really get bored because I can at least think about why it's not working for me.
Darren Mooney
Second Wind keeps making me want to remember the names of creative people.
Y'all are cooking something really special here
Thank you.
It's incredible how many millions they spend on these projects, and nobody seems to be able to inject even the slightest hint of common sense into them.
Editing is so underappreciated - but also i dont feel bad for the fact that disney is self sabatoging themselves by not understanding this because disney doesnt care about art lol
Never been able to put this feeling into words, but "It always feels like the studio is promising the viewers that 'at least this'll be over soon.'" sounds pretty accurate to me
As someone who doesn't watch any Marvel shows/movies at all, I had the opportunity to watch the first episode of Echo with a friend, and I genuinely have no clue what is going on in that show. From the opening to weird cuts all over the place (and time?), things happening to the main character for which I have no context or explanation as to why stuff is happening and so on. It was honestly completely unwatchable for me. This leaves me very confused as to what you mean by "continuity light, accessible show".
What they were supposed to do and what they actually did are two very different things.
Wow, way to bust out a Darin Morgan reference, you love to see it.
Strongly recommend Folding Ideas' video about Suicide Squad for some great insights about editing.
Love Dan Olsen! (And the video is great.)
Well said, the cynical editing definitely lost me on the first episode of echo as I didn't need the rehash of her story and it felt poorly done.
I really liked the idea of the 'deaf mode' moments but they were treated more like a gimmick than her state of being. After that the trash editing on that daredevil fight made me bow out entirely.
It definitely felt like a show Marvel gave up on. I was excited to see Devery Jacobs, but her character barely factored into the plot. Daredevil’s cameo seemed more like a commercial for his next outing rather than something that contributed to the show (similar to Valkyrie popping up in The Marvels for no reason). There were some good ideas and good characters, but Marvel didn’t seem interested to see it through.
Absolutely excellent video that reinforces my choice to support y’all’s Patreon.
The Marvels was extremely fun, but it was excruciatingly obvious it was edited to hell. You could tell there was an entire arc about Kamala Khan becoming disillusioned with Carol, but that it was cut for time.
Thank you for this!
It's also really obvious that they originally had a much longer musical sequence in the middle and got terrified about it after test screenings and cut it as short as possible.
At least it was less obviously hacked to hell than Thor 4. I'd REALLY like to know what happened behind the scenes on that movie, because it felt like something went really really wrong and the movie was salvaged from whatever they had.
@@jasonblalock4429
The movie was originally 4 hours long. This included 15 minutes sections that were just telling jokes and many scenes that weren't very good. It basically had too many deas that were nothing to do with the story.
The fact that fans of the Lord of the Rings movies generally default to the 4-hour extended cuts when they rewatch the series definitely suggests that movie length is not automatically the problem.
For me, the movies that I'm immediately suspicious of are the ones that clock in as close to 90 minutes as possible. It doesn't mean that they're necessarily bad, or that longer movies are necessarily good, but if a film manages to get cut down to about 90-95 minutes, especially when including credits, it gives me the sense that the studio had little faith in the production, and wanted it cut down to as short as possible while still being just long enough to justify a theater release.
I've still been enjoying the MCU, but it is refreshing to watch this as some of the most well-reasoned and thoughtful criticism of the recent output (that I've seen, anyway). Leaves me feeling "yeah I liked it, but it _could have been better."_
The quality of all the shows on Second Wind are through the roof. I love them all. Thank you for your hard work.
I'm not sure if I've seen this intro before, but it was a pretty nice one! Kudos for it!
Well, that's what happens when speed is put above quality in your film making.
It's like the phrase, "Haste makes waste" isn't valid anymore or something.
I heard a rumor today that they might bring back thanos, if true, it makes this video’s point about the Disney taking the nostalgia route quite relevant.
It kinda feels like the mcu has entered its “direct-to-video sequel” stage.
Oh, I hadn’t heard that one yet!
This guy needs a regular series: an informative video and an excellent critique.
Every other Monday!
Had no idea that Men in Black had a completely different plot before editing. Apparently they redubbed entire conversations between alien characters that were originally shot speaking in English to make it work. Fascinating detail.
A lot of attention was brought to the editing process back in the 80s with Blade Runner. Weirdly, it was then brought up against in the 90s with Apocalypse Now, a movie released 3 years before Blade Runner. Again with Mad Max Fury Road when the writers and director largely admitted they had handed in nothing but a massive collection of shots with no cohesion and there was no movie at all before the editor pieced it together. And of course today we have the famous Zack Snyder controversies.
The point of all this is that across film history, people have been sporadically reminded of how many movies are made and ruined entirely by editing. Editing often done by a single person with no input from anyone who participated in the filming, but usually with heavy input from the studio & producers. Perhaps more often than not, the studio and producers have a movie they want and no matter what the script or director says, they make that movie happen in the editing room. Even in defiance of what is actually filmed, as apparently was done with The Marvels, they produce a different movie than the one they have film for.
Brilliant editors take the absolute chaos that is every film production and spin it into gold. They are very possibly the single most vital part of the modern film making process, but that is NOT a good thing. Editing is and has always been important and necessary. Editing has _not_ always been where the movie is written. And while we might want to lean on editors to try and salvage something terrible, writers and directors _NEED_ to be the ones defining the story, the pacing, and the scenes because they're the ones with a special skillset that qualifies them to create a vision in film. Studios and (very occasionally) rogue editors stripping away that vision because they think they know better than the people whose entire career is defined by this one thing are hurting themselves, the film industry, and the fans who wish they could see something great.
You guys are great. I’m glad you escaped the Escapist; I would be missing so much good content.
The Star Wars thing is a myth I wish would die. You can argue it was saved in the edit but no more than every other film, and Marsha Lucas was not the only editor. She even pushed to keep a lot of the unnecessary scenes that were cut (everything with Luke's friends on Tatooine) because she'd put a lot of effort into those scenes.
Yup, I think she even debunked the idea she saved it herself at some point. People just look for any excuse to hate on Lucas I guess.
Yeah it is a mix of her and Lucas
I mean the Marsha Lucas parts might be a myth but the difference in editing is still obvious if you look at the final cut compared to the screening versions. The death star attacking the rebel base at the end is entirely editing, and it's super important to the scene.
I'm burned out on superheros. I don't know what it would take to get my interest.
I’m so glad I completed disconnected from this particular kind of slop. Whatever little these media products might pretend to offer is so minuscule and deeply burried it might as well not be there. And seeing their decisions such as with the editing all but confirms they know it too.
Well said.
One of my favorite films of all time is directed by someone who’s usually in the editing room - Walter Murch. (The movie is Return to Oz, his only directorial credit, though he has won great acclaim as an editor and sound designer.)
As someone who's been slowly considering taking up editing as a career, or at least beyond a hobby, it's been very difficult to explain to my friends just how much the editor brings to the table. I mean, there IS no finished film without one. But it's tough to point at the screen and go "yeah see how they cut to the other angle right as that guy blinked -- BRILLIANT". It's all very hidden. It's not like VFX where you can obviously appreciate the effort. 😅
Appreciating the effort going into VFX - that's a good one.
"Is that like a personal attack" will never not be funny
This does help explain why most post-endgame Marvel shows/movies tend to feel like they have serious pacing problems, they're patching together a bunch of scenes to appease corporations instead of trusting creators to tell a good story. if there's one thing these always seem to share it's missed potential, so many interesting ideas are never given the time of day in exchange for mediocrity, quips and cliches
This was fantastic, excited for more! Way to go, Second Wind!
Really chuffed you enjoyed it!
I ended up watching Echo, but skipping the first (and second, unfortunately) episode. I really loved what I watched! I'm glad I didn't have to sit through all of the backstory at once! I wish the stockholders at least had more faith in that project in particular, it could have been even better.
*FUN FACT:* The Phantom Menace was originally six hours long but was edited down to two.
To be fair, most early cuts - assemblies or work prints - run around that length, because you just put everything in there in rough order to get a broad feel of the film.
Oddly enough true, even in the Special features the crew knew it was way too long.
# Release the JarJar cut
Amazing little essay, helped me understand a lot. Thank you!
Thank you!
It’s crazy what 2 frames off the header, 2 frames on the tail can do for the feel of a shot, sequence, or even the entire picture. Editing is a chronically underappreciated art.
Bravo with the editing of this video to prove that editing is vital to any presentation.
The studio wants to announce a bunch of big projects to spike a news cycle but then has no interest in following through to create a quality product.
The sad part is, there is very little they have for this year to be in theaters. So.. pushing content ahead, sounds like a boneheaded move
It really did feel Daredevil was meant for a later episode. Then with the whole series being released at once, this move/change becomes pointless. You don't need to use your money shot footage in episode 1 if people have access to all the episodes at once. The decision to release it all at once certainly came after the edit though.
I think I half agree with the argument here. Yes, the recent Marvel editing is aggressive at retooling movies and shows to be shorter, more palatable, and more bingeable, and fails to make the movies actually interesting. But this seems more like an escape hatch for an already mediocre project. If the script is garbage, sometimes a "get this over with" edit is the best option to cut losses. But it will take more than just a different editing style to make the MCU good again.
I was a video editor for a tv news channel, what they call "heart attack" editor one. Yeah, exactly how it sounds.
Always producers telling you what to do and just running for your life. I retired before 40 not because i could.. but because i had to. You know what i mean Darren?
Jesus, I’m sorry man.
This is great insight, really appreciate you and the second wind team 👌
Companies in their search to maximize profits seem to forget that making a good product will do that work for them. They are making low quality movies/series, fucking with the release date, and the length , in the hopes that it might make something. To me at least, it seems like a worse decision than just trying to make something good, if you have no faith in your product what makes you think we will have any?
@@paultapping9510 I can blame them, the results have shown that the outcome is not the same. When cutting corners and doing all this shit to milk everything they can get, it tends to perform worse than if they focused on providing a better product. The consequences are a bit more than “grumbling from audiences,” they are also making less money which is what makes it all so weird to me. In this obsessive search to maximize profits, they end up doing things that undercut them. In the process of pinching pennies they lose dollars.
It must be so frustrating to be a writer or director on these projects. Whatever you turn in will get retooled to fit what Marvel thinks is best.
Damn, i didn't even watched the escapists products, learned about you guys through polemic, but this is a gem
you guys are cooking!
I get the feeling more with every passing year that Marvel Studios being sold off to Disney was the beginning of the end. Right at the peak of them hammering out their formula to keep each new film engaging and building up a greater narrative, they got bought out, and the formula became a rule instead of a guideline. Everything that diverges from it, even for the sake of fresh and creative ideas, gets hammered out and the rest made to fit criteria worked out by executives whose know-how is rooted in business rather than creative entertainment. Editing as restriction, rather than refinement.
The only problem with your argument is that you believe there is an interesting movie/show behind edits of Echo and Marvels. But it's way more likely that they were even less watchable - even if having more of a point.
It's artistically preferable to have an interesting failure than to have an uninteresting passing grade.
@@fluidthought42 true.
Modern movies may not be longer, but the bad ones sure do feel longer!
having the main characters at least appearing to mourn the loss of an entire planet (or two) is at least more than Guardians of the Galaxy 3 did!
This is totally spot-on. And it's this cutting making more and more of their audience 'feel' like the studios don't care about the characters and the stories, which is itself EXACTLY why so many people (myself included) aren't watching the new Super Hero movies and series. it's like the executives are trying to make a papercut better by using a knife. You can't maintain or grow an audience if your audience feels like you don't even care about what you're putting out. if they don't care, why should we? The Star Wars series, with the exception of Mandalorian s1 and Andor, also very much suffer from this. They spend way too much effort on just quips and references and cameos and not enough on the substance that makes something good. And until they stop treating their audience like idiots and stop taking us for granted, their audience/retention bleeding is only going to get worse and worse.
Does anyone know what happened to Dar-Binn's science guy?
He completely disappeared from the story when the bad guys land on the singing planet.
This reminds me so much of the subscription model for software. "Revenues must increase! Enshitification will continue until morale improves"
I wasn't sure if I was going to enjoy this video just based on the title. Because I liked Echo and The Marvels. But y'all gave voice to some legit points. Damn. Props.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed!
I it is very telling, when the best, most critics could say about the Marvels ,was that it was short. 🙈 Which is a shame, because there were some elements of an interesting movie in there.
Echo is a fantastic story cut into bizarre pieces. There is a great show there, but man, the editing is... so rough.
Especially that last episode. Felt like a lot of wasted potential, And the final confrontation was just weird.
The show could have been so much better.
killer addition to the second wind team
Thanks, glad to be here!
I really like shining a spotlight on this topic, and it made me think about a part of film and TV production that I'd never considered before. Having said that, why does a video specifically about the art of editing keep cutting away from the subject to five-second gags featuring the thing that was just mentioned? The one with The Marvels title card and the Duck Amokfather one felt like they underlined the point being made, the rest feel sort of out of place.
When I went to watch The Marvels, I missed the first half hour, but still could totally understand what was going on. Makes perfect sense now
Ha! Proof of its own argument.
"audiences are choosing to see the longer ones"
I'd argue that's not necessarily true. I suspect that the large portion of audiences that actually makes up significant box office returns go to see whatever is _marketed_ the most, and that audiences 'choosing' to see the longer movies could just be a result of studios marketing movies that are longer.
Don't know. Just pointing out that just because more people go to see a given movie doesn't necessarily mean their choice was the primary factor.
I've never understood the complaint about movies being too long now. Anytime my folks put on a 4-6 hour classic, they would tell us about how the films had intermissions during their theatrical runs.
It's not how long it is, it's how long it feels, and if it felt like it needed to be that long. For me, "Dune" was an example for me of a movie where I was genuinely surprised to realise I'd been sitting there for 3-odd hours.
I'm happy to binge hours and hours of good shows and movies. Same with books. Length was never a real problem. As long as the story is compelling and everything else is at least adequate, then I'm in for the duration.
I'm surprised that no one is bringing intermissions back. I mean, why not? It's win-win for everyone. The audience gets use the bathroom, the filmmakers don't have to worry about the audience being distracted by full bladders, and the theater gets more concession sales. That's a lot of positive just for adding ~10 minutes to an already-long film's run time.
@jasonblalock4429 but then they can't pack as many showings in a day. The theaters may clean up on concessions, but the studios need ticket sales to to recoup their budgets.
@@deadcard13 But that's the thing. When the movie is already three hours long, another ten minutes isn't going to make any real difference. If the studios wanted more showings per night, they'd need to keep their films around two hours.
I loved hearing "exception that proves the role" used correctly!
I think when people say a movie is too long it can immediately say a lot about someones reception to the movie, if your enjoying and engaged then you'll never mention it's run time as a pro or a con.
The Snyder Cut of Justice League is my go-to example of this. I didn't love the film, or even any particular scene. But I enjoyed it, and three hours in to a 4 hour movie I found myself thinking "wow, I'm not even bored or dreading that there's another whole hour to go. That's wild."
Absolutely not the case for a ton of movies, including, obviously, the theatrical cut of Justice League which was exactly 2 hours.
Yeah, another example is the LOTR films, particularly the Extended Editions. Youv'e got people balking at the lengths of each film before taking on watching it. And then after, many are like, "Wait... that's it? more more I need more!"
But those extended edition versions of the films are exactly the lengths that they need to be, methinks.
@@Roccondil Those Ent scenes are fucking unbearable. They're the only reason I'd pick the cinematic versions over the extended.
Just a note that Marcia Lucas saving Star Wars in the edit is a straight up lie, beyond the first edit she wasn't that involved & she shouldn't be credited for the final cut of the film as that badly researched UA-cam video claims (you know which one).
I just wrote a comment about this at 1 min 30 n by the time I got to the end of the video my comment was deleted 😕
@@Violaphobia I'm not sure, I mentioned the nerdonymous video that debunks the Star Wars saved in the edit narrative n it was deleted so I reworded it n it was deleted again 🤷
I wish they could have gave a note why it's deleted so I'd know and can avoid it. I checked the channel comment guidelines and I didn't break any rule. I just thought it's important for people to know and stop spreading this false narrative cos I believed it too before I saw the debunking.
This is such a _good_ video, and speaks to my thoughts about how Marvel has been running for the last 5 or 6 years.
The main issue, as I've seen it, with those overlong movies, is pacing. Which is controlled in no small part by the edit. Oppenheimer and Across the Spider Verse are both excellently paced, to the point were I hardly even noticed the length, despite my personal disdain for long movies. Compare that to Wakanda Forever, a movie that felt like a slog despite the plot being _dope as fuck_. Even while watching it, I felt like entire plotlines could have been cut from that movie to focus more on The relationship between Namor and the Wakandans. Instead, they had a 2 hour and 41 minute _mess_ of a movie that didn't manage to make good the most interesting themes in it's premise. It's a shame
What a shame. The MCU has so much potential and was phenomenal over the years.
How the mighty have fallen.
Well laid out points and not just a hate show about the MCU? Amazing, love it, more please. Regarding the space cats scene and the i forget the name of the planet where they speak by singing, I really liked those parts of the movie but they are clearly not written by the same people writing the parts where millions of people die and captain marvel is big sad about destroying the kree people. Your video was about editing and couldn't expand into writing without losing focus, but this whole writing by committee business is really killing superhero movies. I feel like they were trying to emulate someone like James Gunn who can balance the drama and comedy very well, but the big decision makers weren't up to the task creatively.
Yep, an early draft of the script - which was sprawling, ironically this video was saved in the edit (thank you Jesse!) - we talked about how revealing that one of the first things that Gunn made clear at DC was that the script was paramount, that movies wouldn't be rushed into production with unfinished scripts.
I need to watch this series more, Darren is a genius
Thank you!
This could have easily been another 5+ minutes longer. I blame the editor.
Ha! Well-played! (But Jesse did phenomenal work.)
Loved this video, I hope Disney see this. I felt like Echo has something great in there somewhere.. the best of the MCU always had a soul because the creative people behind it got the confidence and backing from Disney.
I was just saw Poor Things at the theater. I ordered a large popcorn (with butter) for my wife and to my amusement we got the special popcorn tin that usually costs like $20, for free! the tin was, of course from The Marvels. gotta clear out that inventory somehow! 😂
Dune Two Popcorn Bucket or Bust, Baby!
(EDIT, because I can’t resist: “Bucket or Bust a Nut, Baby!”)
This was always a question I had in the back of my mind. Should movie be short or long? Glad to finally have more details on movie making in general cheers context matters, now I know disney in general is also fatigue on their MCU idea. Amazing how many companies are just "fatigued" as a whole, and just want to push out titles, so they can get more money, to push out more titles, to get money, rinse repeat
Would love to see a video talking about how star wars was saved in the edit.
Having re-watched Across the Spider verse last night, the thing that impressed me the most wasn't the gorgeous animation, the bonkers plot, the critique of traditional superhero stories, or even the amazing characters. It was how it was willing to take it's goddamn time...
As crazy as the movie is, not as much happens in it as you'd think. If I were to break it down into its essence, it'd be as follows:
Gwen leaves her dimension to join a multiverse spider team, says "hey" to Miles, he follows her to another universe, ends up breaking it a little and gets berated by the head of the spiderverse team. Miles then learns that his dad is going to die (and that Gwen knew), and if he tries saving him , it could break more universes, leading to him running from said spiderverse team. He manages to escape them, but ends up in the wrong dimension where a villanous version of himself holds him captive. Roll credits.
You could argue that I could have truncated that a bit more, which is possible, but I think what we can all agree is that the story above is really reductive and doesn't do it justice.
Gwen leaving her dimension wouldn't have felt that monumental were it not for the 20 minutes we spent with her, learn more about her past, and feel the relationship with her dad. Miles following Gwen and getting hurt from her wouldn't have felt like much were it not for their scenes web swinging and talking. And of course, Miles' willingness to risk the collapse of the multiverse wouldn't have meant anything were it not for the opening where we see how attached he is to his family and how it's at an inflection point.
While there's an art to trimming out what you don't need, I think one of the most important things you can have in a movie are the seemingly unimportant scenes that just allow the characters and world to breathe. Hell, it's why the actual goddamn Snyder cut of Justice League takes one of the least atmospheric movies I've ever seen and actually makes it somewhat good...
Yep, you could easily cut a half hour out of that film and keep it reasonably coherent with some ADR.
But I don’t think that would make it better. Quite the opposite, actually.
Indeed. And I'm glad the movie made enough money that the studio (hopefully) has enough confidence to let the filmmakers do what they need to do to conclude their story without trying to trim it down to squeeze in more theater showings. @@Darren_Mooney
Never had it phrased this way before. Thanks.
Pixar's Elemental was seen as a flop when it came out, but then became more of a success long-term: and that's the key distinction here, long-term: trying to goose right from the start instead of thinking long-term will always be more unsustainable compared to the latter, just look at how Second Wind is structured as a company
As someone who knows nothing of the editing process, this is really really interesting!
that was an awesome analysis on editing, with a side note on corporate greed and creative bankruptcy
The tactics Marvels uses shot to shot is nightmarishly quick
Wow, I didn't know all that about Echo being cut to pieces. It did feel like DD turned up at the wrong time though so it makes sense they must have shredded it to fit him in early. I couldn't wait to watch it as I really enjoy the "street level" stuff much more than all the galactic time travelling nonsense so to me it still felt fresher than a lot of the more recent stuff but now I wonder how much better it could have been without all that interference.
I really want to watch the show that is burried within echo now that you phrase it that way
Don’t ever say “the exception that proves the rule.” It’s a BS way of hand-waving away cases that show the rule is false. It’s like claiming “all all numbers between 3 and 11 are prime” is true because 9 isn’t prime.
The phrase does get misused quite a bit, but there are cases where it can be used in a meaningful way, e.g. showing that there are special circumstances applying to the exception and that the rule reliably holds true when those circumstances do not apply. Which is how it was used here.
It's a common idiom, not a meaningful phrase. Even if the rule is *generally* true, saying an exception "proves" the rule is nonsense. Just because it's a popular saying doesn't mean it's not dumb.
In the case you're talking about, it's more appropriate to say something like "there are exceptions, but they're rare." Not as catchy, but at least it's not stupid.
Not really interested in gaming content at this point but I'd sign up to support regular film discussion of this quality
Thank you! We’re looking at launching a film/culture podcast in the next little while.
The problem with blockbuster editing that I find the most obnoxious is actually not the editor's fault. I don't think they even get to make most of these high-level decisions. I think the problem is the cinematography--or rather the prioritization of it over storytelling and acting. Every shot must be perfectly aligned and focused on the star actor. Every line their star actor reads must be perfect. Only use the best snippets from each take--no matter how small--stitch em together, and let continuity be damned. They force the editors and colorists to fix EVERYTHING. And the result is that the average cut is less than 3 seconds. The POV is constantly bouncing back and forth between the people who are talking. You get fewer cuts where you can see all of the actors speaking, reacting, responding to one another, and... well, _acting._ Even monologues are chopped up into teeny tiny pieces. This all started as a way to cut corners and salvage scenes with bad acting, but it created this snowballing problem where directors and producers think that this is how movies should look because that's what the audience is accustomed to. Stanley Kubrick and Sidney Lumet have been spinning in their graves so fast they could use their carcasses to shoot in IMAX.
I think this attitude towards filmmaking is absolutely murdering the drama. Dramatic scenes are often dead on arrival because we're not allowed to immerse ourselves in each scene. We don't get to see actors lead the pacing by transitioning through multiple emotions across multiple leans. Each line read gets its own cut. Even an actor's emotional transition has its own cut. The whole team is so focused on grinding sausage that there's no emotion invested into the film itself. The producers and directors don't even realize that they're throwing out the filet mignon when they tell their editors to cut the "fat."
It also kills the action, because you rarely get to see any impressive choreography on display. The actor will make exactly one movement and then they will cut. The editor has to Frankenstein every footstep, every punch, and every kick together into a cohesive scene. If they get good footage and are absolute wizards at their job, the editors can make it kinda coherent. At its worst, you get abominations like the basketball scene in Catwoman and it's a disorienting mess.
I feel like any director who wants to make an action movie should be strapped to a chair and forced to watch Buster Keaton and Jackie Chan movies until they repent. They need to consistently give the editors full scenes to work with. Stop trying to fix every goddamn thing in post. Hire actors who are capable of stuntwork and memorization. Shoot longer scenes and lean on the actor's ability to memorize and perform the choreography. Make it an exhibition of their talent! Keanu Reeves figured it out and that's why the John Wick movies kick so much ass. Marvel started doing that for Shang Chi and it finally seemed like they were getting back on the right path.... but then someone had the disastrous idea to say "let's throw some comedians in the middle of all this so they interrupt the action and crack jokes every 3 seconds." It was laid on so thick that it ruined a lot of the the genuine physical comedy on display. It was painful to watch. I can't imagine any editor thinking this was a good idea. My bet is that the producer or director was pulling rank and forcing it.
You've watched Oppenheimer 8! times "since the year in which it was released"? You mean last year? 😂
When are we going to get Darren back on a weekly podcast? The Recap was my favorite thing you guys did at the old channel. Just need more Mooney in my life
We’re working on it, we promise!
@@Darren_Mooney WE ARE SO BACK!!!
@@beverlyshields2399 WE WILL BE SO BACK, SHORTLY! WE PROMISE!
3:18 where is this from?
I've lost interest in the whole Superhero industry ages ago.
But this ten-minute video about editing of all things... was interesting.
Same, and worst part is people telling me to just hop in again. Like where am I supposed to “hop in”? It’s 5-10 TV seasons, 10+ movies, 4/5 Phases, and all interconnected, WHERE AM I SUPPOSED TO START?
@Ceece20 damn it really does feel like a problem of comic runs has now entered into the comic series when you look at it that way huh
@@catharticgemini Pretty much. I can't jump in anymore, the ship feels like it has sailed.
Reminds me of when people said you needed to watch Clone Wars and Rebels in order to understand/be able to criticize Ashoka. I'm sorry, but I really don't feel like having to watch several seasons of a different show that's 10+ years old to understand a live-action TV series is a good method of storytelling.
There is little to save when there are no competent writers, who make stories they want to tell in the big studios anymore.
Just product managers and content creators.
For movies I think of myself as pretty general audience, and even if it's a really good movie, in a theater setting if I'm sitting for close to 2hrs I usually kind of feel like I'm ready to go regardless of the movie
Great video and I agree… but I’m still bitter that this wasn’t about how boring and bad the actual cutting is in these films, butchering what could’ve been spectacular fights or heartfelt scenes. Just bland
Fair. Sorry. This was a video that had a very long script and a few rounds of revisions to hone it.
Didn’t get to talk about the clumsy ADR in “Echo”, for example, the use of greenscreen and compositing and so on.
We were so lucky with Guardians of the Galaxy 1-3 & the holiday special. The balance of ideas, characters, shift in the story, the soundtracks. Everything had meaning, and purpose.
That is what Marvel Studios should push more for. Just like the Avengers films did. Including Infinity War, and Endgame. Which the Russo Bros fought for (hell they even worked with the Deadpool team to figure out a gameplan)
Editing hasn’t been the same in the MCU for a while now and I’ve noticed that when they kept reporting about Thanos’s original opening for Infinity War and how a lot of Phases 4 & 5 feel kneecapped by editing decisions that make them feel too long or not long enough with telling the stories they want to tell