The deepest bass I've ever felt was when I was a young man and went to Radio City Music Hall for a Christmas show. I don't recall who was at the organ console but it might have been Dick Liebert (yes, I'm that old). A thirty-two foot pipe, when it spoke, knocked the wind out of me. It is a memory I will carry with me to my dying day.
Yes it can! I've had the album and CD for many years and it still amazes me to listen to it. You can actually see the space in the groove where the cannon shots occur.
A 105mm Howitzer is what was used in that production. "Caution; Digital Cannons". Playback at reasonable levels requires a lot of system capability. Only when I moved up to (4)15"s, and (4)18"s as subs, ... supporting 2kw 3-way active mains (Seaton Cat12c) .... Only then could I play the piece with musical authority and still be able to track those big cannon shots. Still today, it's the most dramatic demo to the uninitiated, ... unexpected listener. Then, perhaps follow that up with modern track like Lorde's Royals, Daft Punk, or Tiësto's The Business.
@@FOH3663 The groove deflection is visible to the naked eye. I have a Sony PSX-75 with biotracer arm (electronic tracking) and Adcom XC/LT (crosscoil, line trace) cartridge. It is able to track. Many cartridges will just skip out of the groove. I recently found the cannons on a Telarc CD, too. That's got to sound/feel amazing. I hope you live in the country. I just have a couple tri-amped JBL 4343s. I moved to where I have neighbors within 100 yards, so have to be considerate.
The way i see it is, deep bass resonates with the throat and chest cavity, much like a horn sub, with a mouth throat and chest cavity as such are very efficient within a tight range. But a chello playing without any pistons can also be fealt in the chest, i think its more resonant frequency. And kinda why headphone guys miss out, i believe the sounds are meant to be fealt through the whole body and not just in the skull, give a whole other dimension and feeling, kinda like when you go to a 'spooky place' it feels spooky because you can feel a lower than 20hz hum, i think mythbusters did a bit on the subject.
Anyone who has ever shaken out a bed sheet or a large bath towel in a room knows what happens, when a large amount of air is compressed in one fell swoop.
Last time we saw Aerosmith in concert, the bass was moving my pants legs without me doing anything. Afterward my wife said "Now that's a rock concert!!" But for me, Mahler symphonies (particularly numbers 2, 6 & 8) have such a visceral and emotional impact that nothing compares. Best live, but even on my stereo amazing.
One of the most distressing and unpleasant concerts (sonically) that I attended was the Doobie Brothers a few years ago. I was unprepared for the sonic assault. The clever sound guys kept the db level just under the threshold of hearing damage. But each to their own.
49 years old now. 2 events come to mind. When I was at Snoop Dogg and Dr Dre Chronic tour in early 1990's when I was a teen there were so many walls of subs you felt the bass surge into the concrete from your feet to the top of your head and then back out again each time it hit. That was loudest ever and it was crystal clear the high and low's. Other time was my system in my basement. Next door neighbors called our home phone ( I was in teens in age ) and said could I please turn down the music they were trying to eat and their plates were moving across the table. When my mom told me I said no way possible. I went outside in the grass area between our basement and their house and sure enough I could feel it strong in the ground. I had a big class Threshold amp back then driving the Klipsch flagship horns that go in the corner of the walls with the 15's and then center channel flagship Klipsch powered by Mcintosh amp. Thos Klipsch sounding amazing with rock especially Red Hot Chili Peppers ( Blood, Sugar, Sex, Magic) CD. Had Nakamichi player back then and Lexicon surround sound processor with Threshold FET9E pre-amp. Had Definitive BP 10's speakers for back surround sound and M & K ( Miller and Kriesel ) 12 inch subs in push pull configuration. The movies on that were incredible had the Pioneer laser disc system. These days do more easy listening with my Sonus Faber Aida 2 speakers and my pair of VAC amps 452 IQ musicblock's.
That's not possible! To make plates in a different house move across the table. Maybe the loudest thunder ever could make a plate move a tad, but not across the table. Audiophiles are sometimes known for their imagined or made up sensationalism.
Ah hem, have you ever heard of Nikoli Tesla? He had experimented with asymmetric oscillators in his younger years and decided to see if the ground could transduce the shaking waves it produced. So, like any enterprising young man, he decided to pound an 18 foot pipe into the ground of his basement and attached onenof his oscillators to it. The townsfolk (i.e., the entire town, not just the next door neighbors) were not happy! The guy in this post did say his speakers were in the basement. It's possible. In fact, I got in major trouble in college because I had a pair of Klipsch Tangent 40s (predecessors of the Forte IVs with a huge passive radiator) in my dorm room. On multiple occasions, the young ladies 3 floors above me had complained about their pictures jumping off their desks and shelves...I had to reimburse them for the damage I had caused 😂
If either of you guys play your speakers so loud that it can make plates vibrate across the table orin the house next door, or make pictures fall from their shelves of someone living 3 floors above you; they COULD NOT have told you, that those things happened. Unless they knew sign language. Because you wouldn't be able to hear a thing.... It would take a jackhammer in the same room to do stuff like that. A fiction I'm sure. Not ALL audiophiles will believe just anything
I have an "audiophile" friend that likes to feel the bass not in her chest but her lower private area just like in that old Howard Stern movie from years ago as strange as it may seem. Howard got her in to the hobby in fact with that movie. She is always trying to get other females in to the audiophile hobby but everyone she ever tells about her speaker placement thinks she is a creep. If she reads this comment she should comment here because I'm sure other people would be interested in her system and be more accepting of her. I tell her to comment here but this is the perfect video to bring her aboard because it proves others like the same feeling of bass as even Paul said he likes to feel it.
@@billdivine9501 I'm not sure. One time she said she has three ears and really likes to feel the bass. I can't stand the type of music she listens to. It is type guy car stereo guys use to make their car shake so I really don't. I was hoping I would see her comment here today but she said you guys would not understand unless your wives are "deep bass audiophiles" and she said you won't even ask them to listen to bass because it is non-directional and most audiophiles don't understand how someone can only like the low frequencies.
I was doing an introductory tour in the mid '70's with the newly released AR 9 series speakers and was in Audition HiFi Kingsport TN mall giving demos. Stacked Advents had just become a thing. So I stacked a pair of AR 91's in the sound room, which were around the same price as the Advents. A man and woman came in to listen. He was blown away by the amount of chest thumping bass. But asked the woman what she thought. She did not like all the bass. Turns out they were on a date in the mall, not a couple. The guy took me on the side and explained that he was more concerned with how a date would respond than the sound quality!
Two stories: 1) Growing up, they kept a sound system kept a dance up the road from my house every friday and it would shake the roof and the windows for hours. If you walked within 20 feet of the speakers you would feel it in your chest. I could never understand the people that stood next to them for hours. 2) My setup the deepest dirtiest subwoofer system I have ever experienced in his 1993 Suzuki Swift. It wasn't the loudest I ever heard but it was the lowest. I mean I've felt the throb from other systems his rumbled in my chest, I could stick around for too long when he put the woofers on because it physically made me dizzy and want to throw up at the same time. Good times!
Being a drummer, my "woofer" is a 22" diameter bass drum. I haven't played live in a long time, but when I did, I enjoyed seeing people dancing nearby experience that chest-thump as I played pretty hard. The main reason I enjoy sound reinforcement gear as opposed to audiophile gear (especially speakers) is my desire to "have the kick-drum part my hair in the middle." Sure, I'd prefer audiophile-class gear that would do that, but it has always been beyond my reach.
@@brainache555 If you've been to a live concert, you've heard it and seen it. It is the PA gear, especially the phenomenal speakers that can fill a 20,000-seat arena with sound that can (as Paul said), "Make your pants flap!" And as Paul has explained in other videos, sonically, sound reinforcement gear isn't particularly flat, clean or accurate, but it is VERY exciting and POWERFUL. And since I mainly listen to Rock 'n 'Roll and Fusion, "high fidelity" is nice but not mandatory. PUNCH is mandatory (Hey, I'm a drummer!). To achieve that level of power and punch with audiophile gear would cost many times more than it does with sound reinforcement gear. So, I trade a lot of what Paul's products provide for "inexpensive" (it's still not cheap!) punch and power. That, to me, is known as LIVE sound, and I prefer it, since I play (okay, played) live music. Don't misunderstand me: I'd MUCH rather have high end gear like PS Audio produces but neither my hearing nor my budget can justify it, darn it.
Paul, you forgot to mention that 1atm is approximately 15psi of air pressure that we walk around in every day... air can be modeled as a very lightweight fluid. Therefore, we have this dense medium all around us that carries the energy from the woofer to our ears, chest, walls, floor, etc. once people understand the weight that air has, it becomes easier to understand acoustical energy.
I worked security at a rap concert once, I had in ear plugs and was standing in front of a stack of Meyer Sound subs. I could open my mouth in front of the stack and there would be enough air moving in and out of my mouth by the woofers that I didn’t really need to try to breathe.
2:43 the design goal for the system in my Corolla was… it should sound and feel like there is a 27 inch Ludwig kick drum in the backseat. It took just over 1000 watts to get there but it was glorious.
A few weeks ago I had the pleasure to watch Hans Zimmer at the O2, when the interstellar music kicked in I had never heard or felt anything like that in my life. I could feel it in my DNA! 😂
Been to him in the nethetlands but never heard a live system sound so good. The dynamic range and man those woofers are stunning to listen to. Made my audiphile mind go nuts
if you ever have the chance to drop in your local batting cages, see if they have a high speed cage, like 90 mph. Try standing next to where the ball hits, which will probably consist of a 1 inch thick pad hanging on the chain link. Your stomach will be saying let's try the 50mph cage and forget the 90.
I have a near field system at a desk. I use a guitar amp stand that tilts upwards. I feel it near my stomach and lower chest but it also improves on the sound staging and imaging. Plus, my ankles don’t feel the boom anymore.
It's not necessarily related to compressed air. You can have the same sensation with earthquakes where the waves "roll" through soil, concrete, your bed or whatever (experienced that about three times in my life with quakes over 5.0). So we are talking about resonance frequencies or "sound waves" that have no problem with shaking your chest - even without air, just by yourself sitting in a chair or standing on a vibrating floor. Cat owners know that too when they cuddle their purring pet and the alpha waves are vibrating their body parts close to the cat (those waves can also have a healing effect btw). The lower the sound frequency the better it can be felt.
@@jmfloyd23 I have 7 acres the only one I piss off is my wife. I read that no matter how big your speakers are you still need a sub, they don’t know AT-15’s.
And then the studio engineers compress the bass, and lower its gain, sucking out the slam. In song after song after song, the drums are heard somewhere in the background, as if behind a sound barrier that keeps their energy from jumping out of the speakers. The above is why so many people want tone controls -- to undo the damage done by the studio engineers. But there is no true undo option. Tone controls are the closest thing we have that puts some of the slam back in, at the expense of changing the character of the the drums, and nearly everything else that is affected by the tone control change. What do studio engineers have against drums? -- Is it a "Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah -- we get to hear it, but you don't" childish thing? -- Or do they think that most stereos cannot handle the reproduction of dynamic, loud drums? -- Is it a radio thing, where once-upon-a-time the radio signal could not carry the dynamics? -- Is it a vinyl thing, where suitcase turntables will skip from such groove carvings? -- Is it a cult of "We hate drums" personnel in the studios? There has to be a reason for so many songs burring the drums -- even on the biggest bands in history. One example is Emerson Lake & Palmer's "Tank". Emerson's keyboards have the gain much higher than Palmer's drums. But when Palmer gets to the drum solo, you can turn up the volume to the moon. But then you have to quickly turn down the volume, when Emerson's keyboards return (or kiss your ears goodbye). Why do the studio personnel do that?
@@bayard1332 "It sounds to me like you have a room mode issue.... because the issue you speak of does not exist in a room with the modes dealt with." It is a studio personnel issue; not a room mode issue. The symptoms that I described are present on every stereo I have ever heard, from mass produced, nothing special stereos, to state-of-the-art, dream stereos, and everything in-between, in dozens of different rooms. Car stereos, too. When the studio gets the job done correctly, then the song in question sounds good, virtually no matter where it is played. When the studio botches the job, then the song in question sounds deficient, no matter where it is played. I find it astonishing that you have no issues with bass dynamics with most (or every?) song; that they all sound right to you. Even the original and the re-master both sound right to you? And the re-re-master sounds right to you? Octave Studios is no better than the studios that have produced nearly a century of songs?
@@NoEgg4u After about 45 years of having issues with pretty much all recorded music I decided to figure out getting great sound from my rig(s), as every room in my building sounded like crap. 8 years later and I fully understand the issues and have fixed my rooms and sorted my rig(s) and built a new rig to explore my own sound ideas. Now I can follow any instrument at any frequency and all notes are the right volume and about 99% of music played on my rigs sounds epic and my sound systems deliver deep satisfaction continually throughout any day/listening session. Sound engineers are not idiots and actually know tons about sound. It is foolish to think you know the answer and every pro on earth is an idiot. Pro tip, the equipment in your rig, amp, source, speakers, are not the issue, the recording is not the issue, your room acoustics is the issue. Learn acoustics and solve every gripe you have. Acoustic Bass and Piano are fully epic on my rigs now. There is no bass missing. At the listening position my 2 primary rigs, in wildly different rooms and wildly different rigs, both measure essentially flat from 30hz to 15khz in stereo, there is nothing missing. It's all about acoustics.
Dynamics compression that you're referring to ... when executed correctly, adds dynamic slam and impact tremendously. Compression isn't the evil that so many audiophiles and enthusiasts believe it is. The problem is poorly executed sonic choices.
@@bayard1332 "Sound engineers are not idiots and actually know tons about sound." It is foolish to think that just because someone does a job, that they are qualified for that job. There are people in every industry that get jobs, but are incompetent at their job. Our planet has countless incompetent people, and a whole lot of them are working somewhere. Incompetent people get jobs, too. Even some people with lofty university degrees are incompetent at their jobs. Consider how many doctors misdiagnose serious medical issues. If you are diagnosed with a serious medical issue, and it will cost you your life savings, will you seek a second opinion? According to your logic, that initial doctor is a professional, and who are you to question his diagnosis? "It is foolish to think you know the answer and every pro on earth is an idiot." It is foolish to believe that when someone gets a job in a studio, it is because they are a pro. Also, I never wrote that I think I know the answer and every pro on Earth is an idiot. You made that up. Please do not fabricate assertions. "Pro tip, the equipment in your rig, amp, source, speakers, are not the issue, the recording is not the issue, your room acoustics is the issue." That is not a pro tip, when you actually believe that the recordings are not the issue. The notion that recordings are all good is absurd. With headphones, the room is no longer part of the equation. Yet, the same sound quality issues are present with headphones, due to the sub-par job done by anonymous studio personnel. "Learn acoustics and solve every gripe you have." You are writing nonsense. You 100% skipped over the re-mastering comments that I made. According to your assertions, that it is the room, and not the recordings, then why are there re-masters? Why are there re-re-masters?
The 5’ tall Bass Towers in my Infinity RS1- B set up driven by a Threshold 4000 Ampllifier made me feel like I was being punched in the gut and even flap my pants legs on certain recordings with a driving heavy Bass beat.
When the air pressure is loud enough to feel it, probably the overall SPL is on the unhealthy side causing hearing damages. I was attending some Dire Straits concert in the 90s and was standing up near the stage right in front of one of the very large speaker setups. When I came home I could hear a rather loud buzzing for several days.
@@Milkmans_Son Yes, but assuming you are running a fairly neutral tonal balance and the music is not just sub bass only, you can get hit by higher hearing damaging frequencies at high SPL when the bass is loud enough to shake your clothes, which is probably 110dB or louder.
Dig Sound System culture, Dub, Reggae, etc. From the US, my wife and I began vacationing in Negril Jamaica in the 80's, we've been countless times. I've experienced phenomenal live and DJ'd shows, outdoors, at night. As an enthusiast and a pro FOH engineer, I've been treated to some wonderful sonic experiences in Jamaica. One trip, they couldn't wait to show me "dis brand new subwoofa drivers". Most everyone is familiar with prominent bass levels and balance of most reggae music. Indoor shows can become a bass heavy resonant mess ... but outdoors, the bass energy washes over you without resonant build-up and reverberation that blurrs detail. I got the opportunity to mix Soul and Funk superstar Curtis Mayfield ... Superfly, live at the Negril Inn. Even back 30 to 35yrs ago, the modest resort at which we stayed... The Negril Inn, had Tom Danley's Servodrive subs! The finest servo horn loaded sub available back then ... At a small little 40 room hotel! Good times.
@@rtflone You are grammatically correct, but I think the point was there were SIXTY of them. Upon reading that, I was immediately taken down a sonic rabbit-hole of glorious, body-hammering bass. Of course, if the venue was an outdoor amphitheater, then maybe not. But for a majority of indoor venues, WOW!! Mixing that would be a challenge and a delight! I saw the Police perform their Synchronicity tour in (I think) 1983, and there were close to 60 single 18s (Showco did the sound) under the front of the stage, spanning the entire width. Sting could seemingly make all the air in the Kemper Arena in KCMO vibrate, pulse, I don't know the correct word COHERENTLY. The experience gave me the idea for a "sonic laser!" Big sound is compelling. It is a primary reason why my favorite hobby is high power rockets and my second is top fuel drag races. You "hear" the sound with your entire body!
@@rtflone yep not me I have a issue with the sound system trying to be the act on stage and not the musical preformed unfortunately this is how it is nowadays
@@terrysmemo8775 funny shit yes show co tour that system to nz and Australia i have got to say it’s getting very dumb nowadays but PA system’s are getting great results but is the pa The act or the band
No, there's no ideal size. My tiny in-ears reproduce 20hz just fine. It depends on the T/S parameters, the box size, alignment, application. IMAX theaters use 12" vented subs. I know enthusiasts that use multiple 24" drivers for home theater. Driver diameter impacts frequency at which the output begins beaming/becoming directional. At bass freqs, this isn't an issue. The onset is approx the frequency having a wavelength equal to the diameter of the radiating cone. For example a 15" ~ 500hz
It can blow the human body into little pieces. 350 DB Volcano eruption explosion. Scientists claim ancient volcanoes of the past Eruptions could be at least that DB.
What's more interesting and confusing is how a 50mm headphone, or 12in woofer can make a wave that's bigger than most rooms. Yes, I know it's a wave front, and not the full wave, but still is very odd to me, and I've been doing hifi for over 40 years.
Of course it's the full wave that a headphone makes. The air that the headphone or speaker compresses don't move across the room; it's almost static. The transducer pressurises the air that's is in contact with, that air pressurises the next one, etc... like the conservation of momentum in Newton's cradle. The length of the wave doesn't depend on how far the membrane moves. It depends only on the frequency. The length is the speed of sound divided by the frequency. Ones hand in water at «slow» frequencies creates very long waves without moving water. My guess is that's easier for a headphone to do lows in a room, because level is low and won't be affected as much by cancellations of the pressure reflected by the walls (depends on the frequency associated with the distance to wall [cancellation] and the distances between walls [room modes]).
@@Jorge-Fernandez-LopezThe reason it’s easier for headphones to reproduce low frequencies is because the amount of air it is moving is far less. Headphones only have to move the air between the driver and your ear drum, which is a very small load of air compared to a subwoofer’s load inside a box and room.
That part that amazes me is feeling it in your feat. Yeah that 9 Dbs boost switch inside my JDS Labs Altoids Box is pretty amazing. And my ATH M-50x's only have a 45 mm . I discovered that in my car when I was living in it. Thought I had forgotten to turn off the engine after warming up and indeed the engine was turned off. My conclusion is the bass resonates in your body so you feel it. You may ask why headphones in the car? The answer is that way if you fall asleep with headphones in your car, it isn't thumping and the local police officers are also not as likely to wake you up. Secondly you don't want to fall asleep with the car running or the stereo on and the car not running. Ether way it sucks too much fuel wasted or the car isn't going to start.The first rule is to keep a low profile and not be noticed also get a jump start battery right away it's your most important accessory and make it a good one. A good mini will usually get it started but having a good new full sized in the truck topped off is good insurance for that time when the battery gets a full discharge and dropped to low. It can take hours before someone is willing to give you a jump start while you're stranded.
@@sundownbasscord I agree, although your answer was implicit in mine. You explained perfectly what's behind my words «level is low» and why low frequencies of headphones «can't» be heard from three meters. My answer to KevlarCondom's question was about the length of the frequency. Waves are defined by frequency, length, amplitude that requires energy. You explained amplitude and energy, I did with frequency and length. Mystery of headphones should be solved. Thank you.
Deep bass but inadequate midbass punch is common. Often it's SBIR nulling ... ie., energy off the boundary behind the loudspeakers destructively interfering with the forward propagation. Also, lack of bass trapping, as resonant build up blurs detail. Some remedy this via nearfield subs or MBMs (mid-bass modules). - experiment fore and aft with both loudspeakers and listening postion, until you hit max punch yet retain ample depth. - nearfield sub - tactile sub mounted under your seating. Tactile approaches, there's countless threads on AVS DIY section, inexpensive, and perfectly effective. Inexpensive $50 drivers implemented to provide exactly what you're after.
@@FOH3663 Ok, i will have a look into it, thank you for great answer! I use bms12S330, they are high quality woofers, i have bought strong class D amps now so lets see if i am able to get that punch in
Hearing the NY Philharmonic playing the 1812 Overture, outdoors with the actual cannons being fired, gives you a real feel for bass. If you are playing a direct digital lp version of that at home, your dishes had better be rattling when those cannon fire!
As far as I can tell, this effect is greatly related to the size of the woofers in the speakers! I don't like it when people rank the bass of the speaker just based on the stated low frequency response of a given speaker for four reasons: 1. That's only the low frequency response compared to other frequencies in the same speaker. The FR plot doesn't tell you how much air the woofer is moving. 2. Response below 200 Hz is greatly influenced by the room. You could have a huge null in one room, and not another, at 50 Hz. I would take Altec Lansing Valencias or Model 19s if I could find any locally.
yes, decibel frequency response graph do not capture bass impact. maybe spl show it better, it is related to cone area and room volume. more cone vs room air volume the more physical bass becomes at lower decibels, still the same decibel loudness.
Nja going a little bit deeper, it is far from just the woofer.. It is also the enclosure design! Even just a very big woofer by itself in a open baffle "enclosure" may and will have a harder time to make a chest pounding bass. (There is many reasons why). But the same woofer in a very common bass reflex enclosure will give you that chest pounding bass.. In short the enclosure design is enabling that ! A woofer has its big area and a number of millimeters travel for it so called x-max.. Compared to the bass reflex tube/vent hole.. It has a much smaller area and their is where the action happens.. At its tuning frequency the air will go in and out with high velocity so high that in some cases you can hear it as a unwanted noise. A small area without a membrane like the woofer has, when it is just a hole.. Its x-max is in practice infinity! So it is in practice it is acting as little sound cannon that fills the outside with "shocks of air" that you feel in your chest.. Then we can discuss if it is natural way to experience unamplified music (live without pa systems that recreate with speakers) if it is not there then this "feeling it in the chest" is probably artificial and not normal in live music. It is just actually noise and a consequence of playing smaller speakers that try to play like bigger once. By using enclosure technology like bass reflex cabinets. Then it is just a different topic that approx 90% of all enclosures are bass reflex and therefore most people are used and conditioned to that flaw "chest pounding bass". So it somehow gets desirable😮😂 Do this experiment (and if you have not then you don't know). Take a big woofer as a 18" or two of them. Place them in a open baffle "enclosure" in other words replace that smaller woofer with the bass reflex enclosure with a much bigger area woofer without that bass reflex.. In short then you get a better and more accurate reproduction of bass. (When/if they get and have the same measured bass extension.)🎉
Interesting, but I wonder how small in-ear headphones manage to reproduce abysmal bass, even quite loudly? Surely a drum like the one Paul mentioned in his lecture can't reproduce that?
Given how rare it is to “feel” bass in the chest during live (unamplified) music performances, why would anyone want to feel this regularly in a system that is supposed to be high fidelity? A system that can reproduce the feeling of being in the tenth row of a heavy metal arena show is doing something, but it’s not hifi.
Never seen a live drum kit? The kick drum on a jazz drummers kit will hit you in the chest.... I dont think anyone is suggesting a system where an acoustic guitar or trumpet smacks you with a shockwave... Also electric music exists... So.... ? Is it not hifi to hear music produced electronically?
@@jessery475 Well, actually I have. My son has a masters in jazz performance and I’ve seen countless performances from tiny academic music rooms to Lincoln Center. I’ve never felt chest compression from a bass drum during any jazz performance, ever. And yes, electric and rock music exist. But when they are recorded and mixed as studio albums you can certainly get pronounced bass from your system, as anyone who has listened to Zeppelin IV or any number of King Crimson albums for example knows . But these produce solid bass that does not induce physical compression on the body, nor should they. Live recordings? I get no compression from Frampton comes alive or kiss Alive I or Ii. Does this mean they are badly recorded live albums? No. Live shows are usually outdoors or in arenas. It’s hard to get bass when there is essentially no “room” to reflect off of. The only time I’ve had chest compression was at a cheap trick show at the town hall in NYC which is a very small room. It was very uncomfortable and if a live recording was made that accurately reproduced those pressure levels, it would not be pleasant, assuming any speaker made for home use could even replicate it.
It's art. It's music. It's hifi. There's no such rules! Whether reproducing Mahler, live Reggae, Jazz Variants, John Bonham's kick, or Funkytown in a German disco the summer of 1980 ... you want that punch! It's real and natural in all those forms. In addition to the German disco above, I've experienced big bass drums in every sized room; - - orchestral performance stage - convention center exhibit hall - NFL Football Stadium Big bass drums have stunning impact and nice following tone, even in larger spaces.
you get bass lowering the damping factor in the amp. industry skyrocketed it up to 4000. cones wont move.. now you need a sub. they want to sell you a sub. and we are buying.. marketing sucks. hi end is a scam.
IMO, in a 5.1/5.2 configuration, a subwoofer plays the most important role. In a stereo set-up, I rarely fire up my sub if correct speakers like Focal’s are used
The deepest bass I've ever felt was when I was a young man and went to Radio City Music Hall for a Christmas show. I don't recall who was at the organ console but it might have been Dick Liebert (yes, I'm that old). A thirty-two foot pipe, when it spoke, knocked the wind out of me. It is a memory I will carry with me to my dying day.
Puts a new understanding on what low end bass notes can be.
Actually, it was the Rockettes causing that feeling!
Similar experience with the organ at St John The Divine in Manhattan during a Paul Winter show.
That would be awesome I have been around organ techs doing recon work I can remember the dust coming out of the roof unbelievable power
My old CV sub can makes my eyeballs shake and I can feel a chest thump at moderate volumes.
The cannon shots on Telarc's 1812 Overture can be impressive. They broke windows when they recorded them.
Yes it can! I've had the album and CD for many years and it still amazes me to listen to it. You can actually see the space in the groove where the cannon shots occur.
A 105mm Howitzer is what was used in that production.
"Caution; Digital Cannons".
Playback at reasonable levels requires a lot of system capability.
Only when I moved up to (4)15"s, and (4)18"s as subs, ... supporting 2kw 3-way active mains (Seaton Cat12c) ....
Only then could I play the piece with musical authority and still be able to track those big cannon shots.
Still today, it's the most dramatic demo to the uninitiated, ... unexpected listener.
Then, perhaps follow that up with modern track like Lorde's Royals, Daft Punk, or Tiësto's The Business.
@@FOH3663 The groove deflection is visible to the naked eye. I have a Sony PSX-75 with biotracer arm (electronic tracking) and Adcom XC/LT (crosscoil, line trace) cartridge. It is able to track. Many cartridges will just skip out of the groove. I recently found the cannons on a Telarc CD, too.
That's got to sound/feel amazing. I hope you live in the country. I just have a couple tri-amped JBL 4343s. I moved to where I have neighbors within 100 yards, so have to be considerate.
@@stephensams709 The cannon is hard to track for many turntables/cartridges. The stylus pops out unless you have a good setup.
Speaking of bass, your voice is full of bass.. I love hearing your voice, Paul. I’m a big fan of yours!
The way i see it is, deep bass resonates with the throat and chest cavity, much like a horn sub, with a mouth throat and chest cavity as such are very efficient within a tight range. But a chello playing without any pistons can also be fealt in the chest, i think its more resonant frequency. And kinda why headphone guys miss out, i believe the sounds are meant to be fealt through the whole body and not just in the skull, give a whole other dimension and feeling, kinda like when you go to a 'spooky place' it feels spooky because you can feel a lower than 20hz hum, i think mythbusters did a bit on the subject.
I've often thought about using headphones with a sub.
@@joejoejoejoejoejoe4391
The SubPac or similar... is exactly what you need.
Anyone who has ever shaken out a bed sheet or a large bath towel in a room knows what happens, when a large amount of air is compressed in one fell swoop.
Last time we saw Aerosmith in concert, the bass was moving my pants legs without me doing anything. Afterward my wife said "Now that's a rock concert!!" But for me, Mahler symphonies (particularly numbers 2, 6 & 8) have such a visceral and emotional impact that nothing compares. Best live, but even on my stereo amazing.
One of the most distressing and unpleasant concerts (sonically) that I attended was the Doobie Brothers a few years ago. I was unprepared for the sonic assault. The clever sound guys kept the db level just under the threshold of hearing damage. But each to their own.
49 years old now. 2 events come to mind. When I was at Snoop Dogg and Dr Dre Chronic tour in early 1990's when I was a teen there were so many walls of subs you felt the bass surge into the concrete from your feet to the top of your head and then back out again each time it hit. That was loudest ever and it was crystal clear the high and low's. Other time was my system in my basement. Next door neighbors called our home phone ( I was in teens in age ) and said could I please turn down the music they were trying to eat and their plates were moving across the table. When my mom told me I said no way possible. I went outside in the grass area between our basement and their house and sure enough I could feel it strong in the ground. I had a big class Threshold amp back then driving the Klipsch flagship horns that go in the corner of the walls with the 15's and then center channel flagship Klipsch powered by Mcintosh amp. Thos Klipsch sounding amazing with rock especially Red Hot Chili Peppers ( Blood, Sugar, Sex, Magic) CD. Had Nakamichi player back then and Lexicon surround sound processor with Threshold FET9E pre-amp. Had Definitive BP 10's speakers for back surround sound and M & K ( Miller and Kriesel ) 12 inch subs in push pull configuration. The movies on that were incredible had the Pioneer laser disc system. These days do more easy listening with my Sonus Faber Aida 2 speakers and my pair of VAC amps 452 IQ musicblock's.
That's not possible! To make plates in a different house move across the table. Maybe the loudest thunder ever could make a plate move a tad, but not across the table. Audiophiles are sometimes known for their imagined or made up sensationalism.
Ah hem, have you ever heard of Nikoli Tesla? He had experimented with asymmetric oscillators in his younger years and decided to see if the ground could transduce the shaking waves it produced. So, like any enterprising young man, he decided to pound an 18 foot pipe into the ground of his basement and attached onenof his oscillators to it. The townsfolk (i.e., the entire town, not just the next door neighbors) were not happy!
The guy in this post did say his speakers were in the basement. It's possible.
In fact, I got in major trouble in college because I had a pair of Klipsch Tangent 40s (predecessors of the Forte IVs with a huge passive radiator) in my dorm room. On multiple occasions, the young ladies 3 floors above me had complained about their pictures jumping off their desks and shelves...I had to reimburse them for the damage I had caused 😂
If either of you guys play your speakers so loud that it can make plates vibrate across the table orin the house next door, or make pictures fall from their shelves of someone living 3 floors above you; they COULD NOT have told you, that those things happened. Unless they knew sign language. Because you wouldn't be able to hear a thing.... It would take a jackhammer in the same room to do stuff like that. A fiction I'm sure. Not ALL audiophiles will believe just anything
I have an "audiophile" friend that likes to feel the bass not in her chest but her lower private area just like in that old Howard Stern movie from years ago as strange as it may seem. Howard got her in to the hobby in fact with that movie. She is always trying to get other females in to the audiophile hobby but everyone she ever tells about her speaker placement thinks she is a creep. If she reads this comment she should comment here because I'm sure other people would be interested in her system and be more accepting of her. I tell her to comment here but this is the perfect video to bring her aboard because it proves others like the same feeling of bass as even Paul said he likes to feel it.
Lmao! Like wtf... But hey, there are all different kinda peeps out there
Let me guess... she has a top-loader washer too.
But does she just think it’s cool or is trying to get off with it? Either is fine with me though!
@@billdivine9501 I'm not sure. One time she said she has three ears and really likes to feel the bass. I can't stand the type of music she listens to. It is type guy car stereo guys use to make their car shake so I really don't. I was hoping I would see her comment here today but she said you guys would not understand unless your wives are "deep bass audiophiles" and she said you won't even ask them to listen to bass because it is non-directional and most audiophiles don't understand how someone can only like the low frequencies.
What did I just read?
I was doing an introductory tour in the mid '70's with the newly released AR 9 series speakers and was in Audition HiFi Kingsport TN mall giving demos. Stacked Advents had just become a thing. So I stacked a pair of AR 91's in the sound room, which were around the same price as the Advents. A man and woman came in to listen. He was blown away by the amount of chest thumping bass. But asked the woman what she thought. She did not like all the bass.
Turns out they were on a date in the mall, not a couple. The guy took me on the side and explained that he was more concerned with how a date would respond than the sound quality!
Strongest base I ever heard: Pink Floyd concert; "One of these Days". Sheeeeeet. Thought my chest was going to collapse.
Another superb explanation from Paul
Two stories:
1) Growing up, they kept a sound system kept a dance up the road from my house every friday and it would shake the roof and the windows for hours. If you walked within 20 feet of the speakers you would feel it in your chest. I could never understand the people that stood next to them for hours.
2) My setup the deepest dirtiest subwoofer system I have ever experienced in his 1993 Suzuki Swift. It wasn't the loudest I ever heard but it was the lowest. I mean I've felt the throb from other systems his rumbled in my chest, I could stick around for too long when he put the woofers on because it physically made me dizzy and want to throw up at the same time. Good times!
Being a drummer, my "woofer" is a 22" diameter bass drum. I haven't played live in a long time, but when I did, I enjoyed seeing people dancing nearby experience that chest-thump as I played pretty hard. The main reason I enjoy sound reinforcement gear as opposed to audiophile gear (especially speakers) is my desire to "have the kick-drum part my hair in the middle." Sure, I'd prefer audiophile-class gear that would do that, but it has always been beyond my reach.
What is sound reinforcement gear?
@@brainache555live sound equipment
@@brainache555 If you've been to a live concert, you've heard it and seen it. It is the PA gear, especially the phenomenal speakers that can fill a 20,000-seat arena with sound that can (as Paul said), "Make your pants flap!" And as Paul has explained in other videos, sonically, sound reinforcement gear isn't particularly flat, clean or accurate, but it is VERY exciting and POWERFUL. And since I mainly listen to Rock 'n 'Roll and Fusion, "high fidelity" is nice but not mandatory. PUNCH is mandatory (Hey, I'm a drummer!). To achieve that level of power and punch with audiophile gear would cost many times more than it does with sound reinforcement gear. So, I trade a lot of what Paul's products provide for "inexpensive" (it's still not cheap!) punch and power. That, to me, is known as LIVE sound, and I prefer it, since I play (okay, played) live music. Don't misunderstand me: I'd MUCH rather have high end gear like PS Audio produces but neither my hearing nor my budget can justify it, darn it.
@@terrysmemo8775 I’m sorry but I have never experienced good live sound
@@brainache555 Sorry, man! It is a thing to behold. Of course, it is all subjective.
Paul, you forgot to mention that 1atm is approximately 15psi of air pressure that we walk around in every day... air can be modeled as a very lightweight fluid. Therefore, we have this dense medium all around us that carries the energy from the woofer to our ears, chest, walls, floor, etc. once people understand the weight that air has, it becomes easier to understand acoustical energy.
I worked security at a rap concert once, I had in ear plugs and was standing in front of a stack of Meyer Sound subs. I could open my mouth in front of the stack and there would be enough air moving in and out of my mouth by the woofers that I didn’t really need to try to breathe.
You reached audio nirvana, my friend.
👍😂
2:43 the design goal for the system in my Corolla was… it should sound and feel like there is a 27 inch Ludwig kick drum in the backseat.
It took just over 1000 watts to get there but it was glorious.
bass response , is not really about intensity , but rather an extended low frequency response of a particular loudspeaker.
Bass response includes everything about bass. It's the part of sound that's missing on a small transistor radio for example.
Bass is where the most power your speakers can handle is affected most . When it comes to driver , sometimes larger IS better .
A few weeks ago I had the pleasure to watch Hans Zimmer at the O2, when the interstellar music kicked in I had never heard or felt anything like that in my life. I could feel it in my DNA! 😂
Been to him in the nethetlands but never heard a live system sound so good. The dynamic range and man those woofers are stunning to listen to. Made my audiphile mind go nuts
Thanks!
if you ever have the chance to drop in your local batting cages, see if they have a high speed cage, like 90 mph. Try standing next to where the ball hits, which will probably consist of a 1 inch thick pad hanging on the chain link. Your stomach will be saying let's try the 50mph cage and forget the 90.
I have a near field system at a desk.
I use a guitar amp stand that tilts upwards.
I feel it near my stomach and lower chest but it also improves on the sound staging and imaging.
Plus, my ankles don’t feel the boom anymore.
Very interesting.
It's not necessarily related to compressed air. You can have the same sensation with earthquakes where the waves "roll" through soil, concrete, your bed or whatever (experienced that about three times in my life with quakes over 5.0). So we are talking about resonance frequencies or "sound waves" that have no problem with shaking your chest - even without air, just by yourself sitting in a chair or standing on a vibrating floor.
Cat owners know that too when they cuddle their purring pet and the alpha waves are vibrating their body parts close to the cat (those waves can also have a healing effect btw). The lower the sound frequency the better it can be felt.
Now that the party is jumpin
With the bass kicked in
And the Vega's are pumpin
My AT-15’s hear you.
@@garyharper2943 I refoamed my AT-12'S a couple years ago good as new.
@@domosautomotive1929 I love to read comments on no matter how big you still need a sub. My AT-15’s go lower than most subs!
@@garyharper2943I had the woofers refoamed in my At-15’s a couple of years ago. They’re back to pissing off the neighbors 😂
@@jmfloyd23 I have 7 acres the only one I piss off is my wife. I read that no matter how big your speakers are you still need a sub, they don’t know AT-15’s.
I like bass trouble is where I live I can't have it too much with bass.
canadian "energy" subs have a knack for chest feel. #OLDSCHOOL
Funktion One EVO7T playing Junkie XL's Darkspore or Wonder Were We Land by SBTRKT.⚡
And then the studio engineers compress the bass, and lower its gain, sucking out the slam.
In song after song after song, the drums are heard somewhere in the background, as if behind a sound barrier that keeps their energy from jumping out of the speakers.
The above is why so many people want tone controls -- to undo the damage done by the studio engineers. But there is no true undo option. Tone controls are the closest thing we have that puts some of the slam back in, at the expense of changing the character of the the drums, and nearly everything else that is affected by the tone control change.
What do studio engineers have against drums?
-- Is it a "Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah -- we get to hear it, but you don't" childish thing?
-- Or do they think that most stereos cannot handle the reproduction of dynamic, loud drums?
-- Is it a radio thing, where once-upon-a-time the radio signal could not carry the dynamics?
-- Is it a vinyl thing, where suitcase turntables will skip from such groove carvings?
-- Is it a cult of "We hate drums" personnel in the studios?
There has to be a reason for so many songs burring the drums -- even on the biggest bands in history.
One example is Emerson Lake & Palmer's "Tank". Emerson's keyboards have the gain much higher than Palmer's drums. But when Palmer gets to the drum solo, you can turn up the volume to the moon. But then you have to quickly turn down the volume, when Emerson's keyboards return (or kiss your ears goodbye). Why do the studio personnel do that?
It sounds to me like you have a room mode issue.... because the issue you speak of does not exist in a room with the modes dealt with.
@@bayard1332 "It sounds to me like you have a room mode issue.... because the issue you speak of does not exist in a room with the modes dealt with."
It is a studio personnel issue; not a room mode issue.
The symptoms that I described are present on every stereo I have ever heard, from mass produced, nothing special stereos, to state-of-the-art, dream stereos, and everything in-between, in dozens of different rooms. Car stereos, too.
When the studio gets the job done correctly, then the song in question sounds good, virtually no matter where it is played.
When the studio botches the job, then the song in question sounds deficient, no matter where it is played.
I find it astonishing that you have no issues with bass dynamics with most (or every?) song; that they all sound right to you.
Even the original and the re-master both sound right to you? And the re-re-master sounds right to you?
Octave Studios is no better than the studios that have produced nearly a century of songs?
@@NoEgg4u After about 45 years of having issues with pretty much all recorded music I decided to figure out getting great sound from my rig(s), as every room in my building sounded like crap. 8 years later and I fully understand the issues and have fixed my rooms and sorted my rig(s) and built a new rig to explore my own sound ideas. Now I can follow any instrument at any frequency and all notes are the right volume and about 99% of music played on my rigs sounds epic and my sound systems deliver deep satisfaction continually throughout any day/listening session. Sound engineers are not idiots and actually know tons about sound. It is foolish to think you know the answer and every pro on earth is an idiot. Pro tip, the equipment in your rig, amp, source, speakers, are not the issue, the recording is not the issue, your room acoustics is the issue. Learn acoustics and solve every gripe you have. Acoustic Bass and Piano are fully epic on my rigs now. There is no bass missing. At the listening position my 2 primary rigs, in wildly different rooms and wildly different rigs, both measure essentially flat from 30hz to 15khz in stereo, there is nothing missing. It's all about acoustics.
Dynamics compression that you're referring to ... when executed correctly, adds dynamic slam and impact tremendously.
Compression isn't the evil that so many audiophiles and enthusiasts believe it is.
The problem is poorly executed sonic choices.
@@bayard1332 "Sound engineers are not idiots and actually know tons about sound."
It is foolish to think that just because someone does a job, that they are qualified for that job.
There are people in every industry that get jobs, but are incompetent at their job.
Our planet has countless incompetent people, and a whole lot of them are working somewhere. Incompetent people get jobs, too.
Even some people with lofty university degrees are incompetent at their jobs. Consider how many doctors misdiagnose serious medical issues.
If you are diagnosed with a serious medical issue, and it will cost you your life savings, will you seek a second opinion? According to your logic, that initial doctor is a professional, and who are you to question his diagnosis?
"It is foolish to think you know the answer and every pro on earth is an idiot."
It is foolish to believe that when someone gets a job in a studio, it is because they are a pro.
Also, I never wrote that I think I know the answer and every pro on Earth is an idiot. You made that up. Please do not fabricate assertions.
"Pro tip, the equipment in your rig, amp, source, speakers, are not the issue, the recording is not the issue, your room acoustics is the issue."
That is not a pro tip, when you actually believe that the recordings are not the issue.
The notion that recordings are all good is absurd.
With headphones, the room is no longer part of the equation. Yet, the same sound quality issues are present with headphones, due to the sub-par job done by anonymous studio personnel.
"Learn acoustics and solve every gripe you have."
You are writing nonsense.
You 100% skipped over the re-mastering comments that I made.
According to your assertions, that it is the room, and not the recordings, then why are there re-masters? Why are there re-re-masters?
The 5’ tall Bass Towers in my Infinity RS1- B set up driven by a Threshold 4000 Ampllifier made me feel like I was being punched in the gut and even flap my pants legs on certain recordings with a driving heavy Bass beat.
When the air pressure is loud enough to feel it, probably the overall SPL is on the unhealthy side causing hearing damages. I was attending some Dire Straits concert in the 90s and was standing up near the stage right in front of one of the very large speaker setups. When I came home I could hear a rather loud buzzing for several days.
totally depends on frequency...
@@Milkmans_Son Yes, but assuming you are running a fairly neutral tonal balance and the music is not just sub bass only, you can get hit by higher hearing damaging frequencies at high SPL when the bass is loud enough to shake your clothes, which is probably 110dB or louder.
I Love Da BASS
Jamaican club in Gloucestershire many years ago. Diy giant cabinets. Bass to violent the rendering on the wall was cracked all over
Dig Sound System culture, Dub, Reggae, etc.
From the US, my wife and I began vacationing in Negril Jamaica in the 80's, we've been countless times.
I've experienced phenomenal live and DJ'd shows, outdoors, at night.
As an enthusiast and a pro FOH engineer, I've been treated to some wonderful sonic experiences in Jamaica.
One trip, they couldn't wait to show me "dis brand new subwoofa drivers".
Most everyone is familiar with prominent bass levels and balance of most reggae music.
Indoor shows can become a bass heavy resonant mess ... but outdoors, the bass energy washes over you without resonant build-up and reverberation that blurrs detail.
I got the opportunity to mix Soul and Funk superstar Curtis Mayfield ... Superfly, live at the Negril Inn.
Even back 30 to 35yrs ago, the modest resort at which we stayed... The Negril Inn, had Tom Danley's Servodrive subs!
The finest servo horn loaded sub available back then ...
At a small little 40 room hotel!
Good times.
❤
Woof, woof, woof!
Correct I just mixed a show with 60 duel 18s that worked
FWIW, that would be dual 18s, not duel 18s but who's counting?
@@rtflone You are grammatically correct, but I think the point was there were SIXTY of them. Upon reading that, I was immediately taken down a sonic rabbit-hole of glorious, body-hammering bass. Of course, if the venue was an outdoor amphitheater, then maybe not. But for a majority of indoor venues, WOW!! Mixing that would be a challenge and a delight! I saw the Police perform their Synchronicity tour in (I think) 1983, and there were close to 60 single 18s (Showco did the sound) under the front of the stage, spanning the entire width. Sting could seemingly make all the air in the Kemper Arena in KCMO vibrate, pulse, I don't know the correct word COHERENTLY. The experience gave me the idea for a "sonic laser!" Big sound is compelling. It is a primary reason why my favorite hobby is high power rockets and my second is top fuel drag races. You "hear" the sound with your entire body!
@@rtflone yep not me I have a issue with the sound system trying to be the act on stage and not the musical preformed unfortunately this is how it is nowadays
@@terrysmemo8775 funny shit yes show co tour that system to nz and Australia i have got to say it’s getting very dumb nowadays but PA system’s are getting great results but is the pa The act or the band
Is there an ideal woofer size for certain frequency range?
Or does it depends on room size, magnet strength, box design and needed wattage?
No, there's no ideal size.
My tiny in-ears reproduce 20hz just fine.
It depends on the T/S parameters, the box size, alignment, application.
IMAX theaters use 12" vented subs.
I know enthusiasts that use multiple 24" drivers for home theater.
Driver diameter impacts frequency at which the output begins beaming/becoming directional.
At bass freqs, this isn't an issue. The onset is approx the frequency having a wavelength equal to the diameter of the radiating cone.
For example a 15" ~ 500hz
Why the same equipment on first day have delivered that chest feeling of bass, but other day I can’t reproduce it with the same circumstances?
Inadequate response time.
@@adotopp1865you mean the room accoustic?
@@seedney yes due to atmospherics.
It can blow the human body into little pieces. 350 DB Volcano eruption explosion. Scientists claim ancient volcanoes of the past Eruptions could be at least that DB.
The bigger the woofer the bigger the bite😜
I felt a Focal speaker hit me in the chest like this. It was their top of the line speaker back in 2005. Pretty amazing speakers with Halcro amps.
Halcro are the holy grail of Amps
What's more interesting and confusing is how a 50mm headphone, or 12in woofer can make a wave that's bigger than most rooms. Yes, I know it's a wave front, and not the full wave, but still is very odd to me, and I've been doing hifi for over 40 years.
Of course it's the full wave that a headphone makes. The air that the headphone or speaker compresses don't move across the room; it's almost static. The transducer pressurises the air that's is in contact with, that air pressurises the next one, etc... like the conservation of momentum in Newton's cradle. The length of the wave doesn't depend on how far the membrane moves. It depends only on the frequency. The length is the speed of sound divided by the frequency. Ones hand in water at «slow» frequencies creates very long waves without moving water. My guess is that's easier for a headphone to do lows in a room, because level is low and won't be affected as much by cancellations of the pressure reflected by the walls (depends on the frequency associated with the distance to wall [cancellation] and the distances between walls [room modes]).
@@Jorge-Fernandez-LopezThe reason it’s easier for headphones to reproduce low frequencies is because the amount of air it is moving is far less. Headphones only have to move the air between the driver and your ear drum, which is a very small load of air compared to a subwoofer’s load inside a box and room.
That part that amazes me is feeling it in your feat. Yeah that 9 Dbs boost switch inside my JDS Labs Altoids Box is pretty amazing. And my ATH M-50x's only have a 45 mm . I discovered that in my car when I was living in it. Thought I had forgotten to turn off the engine after warming up and indeed the engine was turned off. My conclusion is the bass resonates in your body so you feel it. You may ask why headphones in the car? The answer is that way if you fall asleep with headphones in your car, it isn't thumping and the local police officers are also not as likely to wake you up. Secondly you don't want to fall asleep with the car running or the stereo on and the car not running. Ether way it sucks too much fuel wasted or the car isn't going to start.The first rule is to keep a low profile and not be noticed also get a jump start battery right away it's your most important accessory and make it a good one. A good mini will usually get it started but having a good new full sized in the truck topped off is good insurance for that time when the battery gets a full discharge and dropped to low. It can take hours before someone is willing to give you a jump start while you're stranded.
@@sundownbasscord I agree, although your answer was implicit in mine. You explained perfectly what's behind my words «level is low» and why low frequencies of headphones «can't» be heard from three meters. My answer to KevlarCondom's question was about the length of the frequency. Waves are defined by frequency, length, amplitude that requires energy. You explained amplitude and energy, I did with frequency and length. Mystery of headphones should be solved. Thank you.
I have deep and big bass but i dont have chest bass. Is that because i dont have a good enough amp?
the enclosure is one of the most important parts when it comes to low end. but the amplifier and subwoofer itself also matter a great deal
Deep bass but inadequate midbass punch is common.
Often it's SBIR nulling ... ie., energy off the boundary behind the loudspeakers destructively interfering with the forward propagation.
Also, lack of bass trapping, as resonant build up blurs detail.
Some remedy this via nearfield subs or MBMs (mid-bass modules).
- experiment fore and aft with both loudspeakers and listening postion, until you hit max punch yet retain ample depth.
- nearfield sub
- tactile sub mounted under your seating.
Tactile approaches, there's countless threads on AVS DIY section, inexpensive, and perfectly effective.
Inexpensive $50 drivers implemented to provide exactly what you're after.
@@FOH3663 Ok, i will have a look into it, thank you for great answer! I use bms12S330, they are high quality woofers, i have bought strong class D amps now so lets see if i am able to get that punch in
Hearing the NY Philharmonic playing the 1812 Overture, outdoors with the actual cannons being fired, gives you a real feel for bass.
If you are playing a direct digital lp version of that at home, your dishes had better be rattling when those cannon fire!
If it's so loud it vibrates in your chest, that can be unhealthy, especially to your heart. This is not exactly accurate, either.
What sort of bass frequencies can cause the effect? Is it around 30hz - 40hz range for "chest slam" bass response?
40 to 200hz i would say, just get unrough cone area for your room volume and you can feel bass frequencies in that range
55hz-ish is oftentimes chest punch ... however, it's somewhat different for each of us.
The problem with headphones, the best they can ever do is pop your ear canal, not very good.
As far as I can tell, this effect is greatly related to the size of the woofers in the speakers! I don't like it when people rank the bass of the speaker just based on the stated low frequency response of a given speaker for four reasons: 1. That's only the low frequency response compared to other frequencies in the same speaker. The FR plot doesn't tell you how much air the woofer is moving. 2. Response below 200 Hz is greatly influenced by the room. You could have a huge null in one room, and not another, at 50 Hz. I would take Altec Lansing Valencias or Model 19s if I could find any locally.
yes, decibel frequency response graph do not capture bass impact.
maybe spl show it better, it is related to cone area and room volume.
more cone vs room air volume the more physical bass becomes at lower decibels, still the same decibel loudness.
Hahahaha .... lovit 😂
01:38 my ex, literally
Nja going a little bit deeper, it is far from just the woofer..
It is also the enclosure design!
Even just a very big woofer by itself in a open baffle "enclosure" may and will have a harder time to make a chest pounding bass. (There is many reasons why).
But the same woofer in a very common bass reflex enclosure will give you that chest pounding bass..
In short the enclosure design is enabling that !
A woofer has its big area and a number of millimeters travel for it so called x-max..
Compared to the bass reflex tube/vent hole.. It has a much smaller area and their is where the action happens..
At its tuning frequency the air will go in and out with high velocity so high that in some cases you can hear it as a unwanted noise.
A small area without a membrane like the woofer has, when it is just a hole..
Its x-max is in practice infinity!
So it is in practice it is acting as little sound cannon that fills the outside with "shocks of air" that you feel in your chest..
Then we can discuss if it is natural way to experience unamplified music (live without pa systems that recreate with speakers) if it is not there then this "feeling it in the chest" is probably artificial and not normal in live music.
It is just actually noise and a consequence of playing smaller speakers that try to play like bigger once.
By using enclosure technology like bass reflex cabinets.
Then it is just a different topic that approx 90% of all enclosures are bass reflex and therefore most people are used and conditioned to that flaw "chest pounding bass".
So it somehow gets desirable😮😂
Do this experiment (and if you have not then you don't know).
Take a big woofer as a 18" or two of them.
Place them in a open baffle "enclosure" in other words replace that smaller woofer with the bass reflex enclosure with a much bigger area woofer without that bass reflex..
In short then you get a better and more accurate reproduction of bass. (When/if they get and have the same measured bass extension.)🎉
Woojer makes portable bass
devices for music and gamig.
Interesting, but I wonder how small in-ear headphones manage to reproduce abysmal bass, even quite loudly? Surely a drum like the one Paul mentioned in his lecture can't reproduce that?
I wrote an hypothesis about that in @KevlarCondom's comment.
The subs at Area (NYC nightclub) would blow my clothing with the wind they produced (you could stand in front of them)
your voice is so extremely quiet
Given how rare it is to “feel” bass in the chest during live (unamplified) music performances, why would anyone want to feel this regularly in a system that is supposed to be high fidelity? A system that can reproduce the feeling of being in the tenth row of a heavy metal arena show is doing something, but it’s not hifi.
Yes entirely true. Kicking bass is a electronic artefact mostly. Unless it's not and comes from a bass drum.
Never seen a live drum kit? The kick drum on a jazz drummers kit will hit you in the chest.... I dont think anyone is suggesting a system where an acoustic guitar or trumpet smacks you with a shockwave...
Also electric music exists... So.... ? Is it not hifi to hear music produced electronically?
@@jessery475 Well, actually I have. My son has a masters in jazz performance and I’ve seen countless performances from tiny academic music rooms to Lincoln Center. I’ve never felt chest compression from a bass drum during any jazz performance, ever. And yes, electric and rock music exist. But when they are recorded and mixed as studio albums you can certainly get pronounced bass from your system, as anyone who has listened to Zeppelin IV or any number of King Crimson albums for example knows . But these produce solid bass that does not induce physical compression on the body, nor should they. Live recordings? I get no compression from Frampton comes alive or kiss Alive I or Ii. Does this mean they are badly recorded live albums? No. Live shows are usually outdoors or in arenas. It’s hard to get bass when there is essentially no “room” to reflect off of. The only time I’ve had chest compression was at a cheap trick show at the town hall in NYC which is a very small room. It was very uncomfortable and if a live recording was made that accurately reproduced those pressure levels, it would not be pleasant, assuming any speaker made for home use could even replicate it.
It's art. It's music. It's hifi.
There's no such rules!
Whether reproducing Mahler, live Reggae, Jazz Variants, John Bonham's kick, or Funkytown in a German disco the summer of 1980 ... you want that punch!
It's real and natural in all those forms.
In addition to the German disco above, I've experienced big bass drums in every sized room; -
- orchestral performance stage
- convention center exhibit hall
- NFL Football Stadium
Big bass drums have stunning impact and nice following tone, even in larger spaces.
I just ask my self how many speaker's are sold only in 2023 🤔 answer is around 42 Billion Euros worth on speakers got sold 😮
you get bass lowering the damping factor in the amp. industry skyrocketed it up to 4000. cones wont move.. now you need a sub. they want to sell you a sub. and we are buying.. marketing sucks. hi end is a scam.
IMO, in a 5.1/5.2 configuration, a subwoofer plays the most important role. In a stereo set-up, I rarely fire up my sub if correct speakers like Focal’s are used