🎲 Dice Control Deep Dive - #7 - My Toss: "The Chopper"
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- Опубліковано 5 жов 2024
- If dice control is real, which throw is the best? Let's look at our favorite throw, "The Chopper" or "Helicopter" toss. It's fun, it's comfortable, and it helps clear out some of the crazy in your throws.
Does it work? For me, I think so, but that's just my preference. Check out this expose and lesson on the throw and give it a try on your practice rig.
Here's a few links that I hope you'll find interesting as well:
Cashiers Cage Channel: / @cashierscage
Dice Cheating - • Garrison: Tips on Croo...
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Pro Craps Website: www.procraps.net
Casino Gaming TV: / casinogamingtv
Discord: / discord
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The opinions in this video are not guaranteed or warranty to produce any particular result. This video is for informational and entertainment purposes only. Any form of gambling carries an inherent risk. Never gamble with money you cannot afford to lose. Anyone who believes they, or someone they know, may have a gambling addiction, please seek help. National Problem Gambling Helpline 1-800-522-4700 Call Text or Chat NCPGambling.org
#CrapsStrategy #Craps #ProCraps - Розваги
Dare I disagree ? I will not go into this argument. I’m just happy you have a toss you love.
That's why I love you, George! At the end of the day, it's 1000% about having a toss you love, that's comfortable to you, and that you are able to diagnose based on your own experience with it. For me, this has all the elements of things that I can actually control and I don't have any discomfort with it like the other throws. So there it is.
... and I do think the physics of keeping everything in the same plane, and going in the same direction helps a lot with reducing the factors that cause explosions. But again, there's no physicist backing me up, that's just what I see.
I just caught this video and gave this toss a quick try on my home throwing station. I did an ititial 12 throw round and had no 7s!!!!! I am now going to practice this and track my results in my spreadsheet I know what numbers are trending to help with my betting.
It's a bear to learn but for me, it's super comfortable on the shoulder.
I love the "Chopper", it has changed my game for the better. Cage is THE MAN.
Yes he is!!
The LID learned the so-called chopper toss from two illegal aliens at Wright Patterson AFB in the seventies. It was known as the "Saucer" toss. He showed it to the "Captain" in the early 80s in Atlantic City and the Captain was so proficient with the toss that the LID claimed the Captain once tossed it so perfect at Resorts casino that the dices flew from the table, went out the front door, went over the board walk, and ended up somewheres in France. True story according to the LID.
Great video John. That's what I tell most people find a toss you're comfortable with and just practice it. I agree with you on landing as close to diamonds as possible. 😉
Absolutely. Comfort is king.
Was just talking about this with some other players the other day. I am still learning so forgive me if I don't explain this correctly.
As a right handed thrower, it seems the preferred position is SL1 with a backhand lob as taught by the Dominator, etc. Standing parallel with the table, etc.
But I find that I prefer SR1 with me standing perpendicular to the table and facing the stickman. Just seems more comfy on the throw. And I use an "all sevens" set in the CO and the hardways set (hard eight up, hard four facing me) once a point has been established. And that's it.
Now just need to build a practice rig at home.
I understand the "physics" of your toss, and if you are able to control at least one die then that's a great start, but (for me) the parr toss hardway set teaches me what the left die is doing and what the right die is doing so that I can adjust my "dice set" (if I do all the variables of tossing, landing spot, etc consistent) in order to get the outcome that I'm looking for.
I get the same general feedback from my dice, but it's less about the implode/explode that you would see. Mine is all about the overspin after contact. I can pretty easily see that either my bottom or top die is behaving properly and I can adjust the spin rates/angles to bring them both in to where I can be assured of what's going on. And if I'm off on one of the die consistently, then just like with the Parr style toss, it's an adjustment in the set that dials it in.
Nice explanation. I have done that toss years ago with the PARR grip. I think we need a video. I truly enjoyed this
Coming soon! I have lots to say on this toss!
Flat impact on table. (sounds different.) Great explanation @ProCraps continued success with your channel
Thank you, sir!
Thanks for the video John. I'm developing a model for a type of chopper toss that does a few things at once. First, the top and bottom face of each stacked die represent NOT axes. In other words, when tossed correctly, the top or bottom numbers of each die won't end up as axial faces but will be remain as radial faces. Second, there is enough forward momentum that the top and bottom faces will remain radial faces for 2 different random axes. Finally, the 'Monty Hall' paradox applies to this dice toss as described. By choosing 1 NOT axis for each die, a 1/3 choice, and successfully maintaining that NOT axis, the remaining axes each now have 1/2 chance of rolling. Essentially, you've improved your chances from 1/3 to 1/2 just by keeping the top and bottom faces off the axes. Furthermore, I can see a big difference in the combinations that are available for this type of a NOT axis toss. I'm seeing very favorable outcomes for the 5's and 9's using an S6 set, turned 90 degrees as a stack (3/4 top/bottom faces for each die, S6s on one side of the dice).
You've pretty much captured what I'm going for here.
Enjoy your thoughts on “influence “. I still believe it’s all Random in the end. I was at a table with a dude throwing this stacked dice. He only got to shoot twice, 1st time he hit the Fire, there was no ATS, the roll went at least 45mins. Second time he went 5 to the fire, and another 25mins easily. 3xs he set the point, and threw it again next throw. We asked him to throw again and he refused said, “I’ve got my cash I’m out of here 😀”. I’ll never forget that night, was playing with 6 of my buddies with 4 who had never played the game. We took over 35k off that table that night. I have thrown the stacked with decent success, great videoJohn!
That's fantastic. Great skill AND discipline. I'd like to think that if I could string together rolls like that in a single session I'd be able to fight the urge to go for the kill.
John,If you are seeing alot of 6's & 1's show up as you stated before,you should hop the low numbers > 11,21,31,41,51,& the 61 & If you find yourself rolling the high numbers you should hop 62,63,64,65,66,& 61 and make that money instead of loading up the board or if you rather play $160 across for example or any other loaded board strategy, at least hop the 61 since it shows up so much!I'd hop em for at least $10 bucks each instead of loading the board ESPECIALLY if you find the 1 & 6 showing on a regular basis. That's just money in the Bank! Hopping numbers is the Best way to play and how I play,if you can get a certain handful of numbers to show on the regular! Good Luck!
I'm just not there on the hopping strategies yet (yet). My assertions on the 1's and 6's are very much "what I see" not "what I've documented" so putting bets behind that is not a thing I'm ready for just yet, but I can absolutely see the value play there.
I created that method of play and put it up on UA-cam back in 2015. It's part of my Super 7 Hop system and is a direct path to gaining multiple wins..
@@TheGamingProLV yeah Leo,When I ever make it to Vegas,We need to get together and playI think it would be a profitable connection 🎲 🎲
Nice John,
I like the "Da Chopper" (like Arnold says, "Run, get to da Chopper"). It makes a lot of sense but I can't throw it, probably because I didn't practice it enough. A simple person needs simple. I throw a inline dice set with my favorite being a 1/2 front dice and 1/3 back dice. Like you said it's about learning what works for you. For me it's about keeping them straight, level and landing flat which is much easier for me.
Absolutely. For me, this is the simplest toss I've ever done. It's actually super hard, but for some reason, it's very natural for me.
@@ProCraps is the dice tracker you have available for use?
@@krappinkamper7222 I am curious as well. I just started recording my practices. ua-cam.com/video/B4GCzNIAZ0E/v-deo.html
John...what I really like here is this ... The dice are rotating on a plane parallel to the surface of the table so the angular momentum of the dice turning is not being transferred to the table and returned in the bounce. Therefore only gravity is responsible for the downward component of movement and the subsequent return of force to the dice, by the table, by Newton's 3rd law
The physics of this toss make so much sense. It's really hard to pull it off, but when it works, you can really see it, and I've put out some great slow motion that shows it.
Hey John, love this segment on the Chopper! I think even Cage would agree your analysis is spot on! I, like yourself, fell in love with this toss from the first time I saw Cage demoed it. I think this toss epitomizes all the elements we strive for in the Dice Influencing game. I’ve been practicing the Chopper for almost 2 years now and have just learned to employ the power of this Beast at the casinos.
Throw it right and you’ll be rewarded, throw it wrong you shall be spanked!🤣
Great video Buddy!👍🏾👍🏾
Also here’s a little analogy, if you took a rock and drop it in a pond you would see one big wave followed by many ripples. Now take that same rock and skip it across the same pond it would dissipate most the energy before it eventually comes to rest and sinks.
I think how Cage throws the Chopper demonstrates this type of physics at work. But I could be wrong…The flat landing dissipate the initial energy followed by a skip and a second landing with just enough momentum to lay em down at the backwall like two flat tires!🤣
Cage may have not inverted the Chopper but I dear say he damm sure perfected it!👌🏾
It's just such a comfortable throw for me to make. No pain, very natural motion, and you don't have to get the dice super perfect in your grip like the other throws.
The less I have to think about and the more natural it is, the better it seems to go for me.
And like I said, it let's me dial back from a '10' all of the hard things you have to get right down below a '5' and I'll take my chances!
If you can lock the 6 or the 1 on the deck 85% of the time I want to be on the table with you. If it’s the 6 I would be betting most of my layout uptown…..
I’m a believer in the chopper but can’t throw it at the time. When one finds a toss that avoids the 7 it becomes a search for the signature numbers that toss provides. Then over the variance of the game the monies are made…
IMO there are a couple advantages of the chopper.
The spin as you said takes the energy off the dice on landing. With the lower energy it allows the dice to hit the BOTTOM of the wall..avoiding the pyramids. That is a big plus….
Keep on spinning man….
I want to make sure that I clarify the way I said that ... I cant guarantee that a 6 or a 1 will remain up 85% of the time. I can guarantee that 85% of the time one of those will be up (especially on the bottom die) after they come off the back wall and re-impact the table.
After that, when they hit the table, if the spin is still tight, that's when they stay, but more often than not, that's when they skitter around and randomize.
It's cool to keep the same number on top through 3 impacts. Unfortunately, there's generally 5 or 6 impacts before they come to rest!
But I do see so many 1's when I throw, it's something to look at for sure.
I've only been playing about 4 months, first time I've seen this throw on YT and never seen it in Tulalip and QCC casino. Thank you for the detailed explanation, I'll try this throw next time. Does it matter on a bouncy or hard table?
I'd love to see your toss,release,and landing of the dice with multiple camera angles!
I'm going to try and figure out how to do that. I'm ok at video production, but multiple cameras (esp with slow motion) are super hard to pull off!
@@ProCraps use OBS Studio and you can switch between different cameras live.
It’s not the software…it’s quality cameras and angles with my room configuration
I’ve been tracking my data… I am still very inconsistent, try to put a lot of emphasis on rotational momentum which can be maintained even if it hits the table slightly off. The more rotational momentum the better… even with my inconsistency, my top die is 7% greater than expected on 1, and 6% greater than expected on 6… so heavy on 1 6 with top die… I use a red and blue die to track on a spreadsheet.
Great Video John. Thanks. I am with your thinking that PAR is really random for all the reasons you explained. The horizontal spin with low energy makes a lot of sense. Still random if they hit the cones, but much less random than the PAR. I think the best thing is practice with the ones on top and see/document your actual tosses of each die, not the totals so much just to get a good idea if this is working for you and how. As someone said, Hopping could be the way to go if you have a dominant I've been doing it Cage's way. I will try it your way. I am open to new things.
I would also practice Waylon's stats at home over and over. I have found that I am not as successful as Waylon. So far out of his strats, I have found the 3 unit DP, followed by the 2 unit Come, followed by the 2 unit Come to be the most successful. I think this is a version of your Hedgeless Horseman. It's great for the PSO. The other one I like of his is the Waylon's March playing the 4 and 5, when it hits full press both and move to the 6 & 8, then to the 4 & 10 with a full press. Might do the 4/10 before the 6/8 depending if I have a multiple of $30 or not.
Thanks again.
SW&G!
Cheers.
I'm a huge fan of most of Waylon's strategies. Trouble is that I don't really have the bankroll that it takes to do them justice at a live table. Until you can use your bankroll as an actual weapon, you shouldn't play in ways that require it. So I practice them, but for later.
LMK how the chopper works out for with the different "spin" on it that I do.
Dude if your as good with that chopper as you say you are than you should nail the six on the bottom die, not the 1.
If you can guarentee a six, than you can bet the field on every throw. Since the field gives the 9 to the player, it is a huge advantage to aim for the high numbers.
Example;
6 and 1 you lose
6 and 2 you lose
6 and 3 you win
6 and 4 you win
6 and 5 you win
6 and 6 you win get paid double!
4 ways to win
Only 2 ways to lose
If you look at it the probably of hitting the 12 and the same a hitting a 7!!!!. It all depends on what that upper die lands on. That is of course if you can get that 6 on the bottom die with that chopper throw.
Shit I got to try this out bro. Thanks-
That's exactly what I do ... stack the 1's on top and it generates tons of combinations featuring the 1/6 so we're in the horn a lot. It's either 1-1/1-2 or 6-5/6-6 ... with misses being in the box. It's doing pretty well for me, even though I'm still a novice with it.
With the statistical average being 6.5 rolls per shooter before 7, you don’t even need to worry about dice control if you’re hoping for 6 to 7. Either it doesn’t work and you’re selling snake oil, or it does work and you should be getting more than 7 rolls on average. Thoughts?
The average is 6 rolls between 7's and 8.5 rolls total per shooter (which accounts for come out winners). The real metric to look at as a DI is BSR, which is the average number of box numbers you throw while the puck is on (in other words, payable rolls). That's really all I care about unless I'm working on a strat that has bets active on the come out.
A DI's job isn't to necessarily lengthen rolls, although it's nice ... but to make himself more money. I'd be tickled pink if I threw 6 rolls every time and it was point,box,box,box,box,box,seven.
I'd retire on that. That's the goal, in my view.
Some self fulfilling prophecies here but the fact that you’ve found a toss that feels good and you can practice is great. High impact close to wall is really meant to knockdown a shot on a ultra bouncing table. Ideally you would want to land them further out like cage but maybe a tad closer to end of come/field.
I will agree to disagree that chopper eliminate more random as all tosses have to deal with landing on surface and into diamond’s. The rotation of spin forward / backwards or laterally just meant a the exit angle and rebound are different but because of geometry face the same obstacles and dimensions of the wall with the main difference being rotation of exit and similarly both will still flip due to those dimensions unless a perfect hit center point of alligator 🐊 wall diamond.
We all try to influence what’s within our sphere.
So much of this is feel and comfort.
I will argue pretty hard that the physics of the chopper style throw are better than the physics of the more traditional backspin type of throw.
That said, the results of the traditional throws seem to be more consistently better by all you guys, so who am I to argue.
I'm just going off what I see on the slow motion.
Hi John great video. I have to disagree with you on a lot of things here. I practice throwing about 3 hours a day. I built my table exactly like the casino. I have tried thousands of different ways to throw dice on the table. Landing the dice flat has nothing to do with the result. Sure it might take energy out but after so many hours of practice this is what I will share. I am not the worlds greatest thrower but I am averaging 14 rolls before a seven these days. I will have some rolls I seven out after just 5 rolls and some I seven out after 22. However over all the average is 14 in the long run. Everything has to do with doing the same release, same grip, same speed, same way over and over on how you throw the dice. It's like a professional pitcher one might have perfect form then you see a pitcher with a very odd style. So my point is do what works for you. For me what works is the muscle memory, grip, set, and throwing straight with a push that tilts the dice front down as they hit the back and the energy bounces it back the other direction. Once they are in the air I already know the outcome if it's going to be a safe number. There is not one session and I play a session 4 days a week at the casino that I do not have a 20 roll. However I may have failed 3 times out of 7 tries to get that long roll. It is impossible to always eliminate the seven. I do know from experience that watching random rollers who have zero control are always the shooters who average 5 safe rolls with that odd 12 roll. So I know that some people increase the percent of 16.66 percent down to 12 percent seven outs.
By all means, share it.
One of your Best. Thank You.
Thank you, sir!
should be a seinfeld episide '' alot about nothing '' ,,,,,,,,,,,,waiting for george and kramer to appear as stick and boxman
People asked how I throw, so here it is ... like I say in the video, it's all random at the end. This is my way of feeling comfortable and in the zone while I'm playing. Keeps my mind right and I like being consistent. Same with my golf swing. If I happen to get a great result, I'm totally going to take credit for it, though!
@@ProCraps no problem with you,,,,,,enough with g from cy '' axis/rotation'' bull sh#t.............guy gets accolades for sheer nonsense from multiple non thinkers '''''''''''''''''i dont care about perfect axis --when the die hit the points made of hard rubber then bounce additional 24 times before they come to rest all axis rotationtalk mute points mean zilch .........hey people..lets get real ...............THINK g
@@drdontpassone8164 I'm not a huge believer in the axis stuff. I'm all about being in control of what I can do, which is quite a lot of things, but in the grand scheme of things, very little on the results. I really just hope that I can make that car crash survivable more often than not!
@@ProCraps when you mention in your vids a certain area of the points ''to avoid'' when throwing i get a little worried.........ggggggggggggg just teasing '''''''''''ps---------------------- keep up the great vids.... have an intervention with g from cypress man too.' i'll help ya........ chuckle chuckle
Very interesting. I'm going to see if I can throw that.
Be patient with it. It takes a long time to get comfortable and consistent with it. Definitely watch Cashiers Cage's channel, as he goes into it pretty deep every day
I really like the Chopper . Your points against the Par Toss make a lot of sense . You also like the Forward Spin Toss . What do you think about the Pinch Grip , No Spin Toss (Knuckle Ball Toss ) ?
I have some friends that do the knuckle toss effectively, but I've not had luck with it. You really need the rotation of the dice to assert energy and directional control. If they don't spin, or spin too slowly, you get way too random even on a light throw. Try dropping them from 6" off the table and then try it again with just a small bit of spin (flick them just a bit) and watch the difference
Fun Stuff...!!! 😀😀
John you gotta lay down real low with your head close to the table like the guy that promotes this toss! Looks like he's looking for a rat under his couch or something 😂😂😂😂
Just joking with yah ! Love yah brother
You crack me up. Like I said in the video, I throw it way different than Cage does. I feel more comfortable with higher spin and a higher angle.
Don’t mind Waylon, John.
He’s simply upset because I commented that he was flinging the dice, standing two feet away from the backwall with a thousand different names for all of those negative expectation betting strategies that are LONG TERM losers UNLESS some form of Controlled Tossing is imparted.
Hmmmmm…. I wonder if Dominator, Frank Scoblete, Howard, Steady Eddy ( Roll 2win), Jerry Stickman, & others would fling dice standing two feet away from the backwall INSTEAD of showcasing their Controlled Tossing skills? 🤣😝
Oh…. did I mention that Waylon CLAIMS to be a Dice Influencer!! 🤪🤣
I guess I’m missing something here. Ya think that MAYBE I should toss a little lower so that I can find that Rat under the table?
I didn’t know that Dice Influencers exist. I’ve only witnessed Controlled Shooters!!!
🎲🎲 Married!!
Excellent video, John.
🤣🤣🤣
@@cashierscage I have never ever heard Waylon say he was a DI…
I practice with each dice a different color. I know then what each dice is doing. I also write down each throw. I wll try this throw.
The brunettes I remember from Charlie's Angels were Sabrina (Kate Jackson) and Kelly (Jacklyn Smith). I like the analogy
Love this video on your chopper throw! I also like your betting strategies.
When you say you grip thumb and middle finger on the points-did you mean the edges? Would love more videos like this!
Glad you enjoyed!
Yes, I grip down the edges, with the thumb and middle finger.
If you ran all the crazy out of your life youll go from red head to single
There's a really great cause but why do you choose that set? Wouldn't it be better to choose a set more likely to land on box numbers?
I only choose that set for tracking purposes, because it's easy to see and read.
Thanks for vid. I understand chopper better now. did Stainley Fuji use chopper?
I’m not sure
@John : if you 🎲🎲 set a "4" , "6" and a "5" , "5" ; are you able to dice control the ten outcomes ; making them significantly less !!!!????
Likewise , if you 🎲🎲 dice set a "1" and a "3" and a "2" and a "2" ; are you then able to dice control the four outcomes , making them significantly less !!!!???? Giving you an edge 🤣 against the casino on lay tens and lay fours !!!!????
The PARR toss was never meant to hit and then forward roll. You are right, and the Mad Professor says the same thing IF you allow a foward roll. The original idea and the one that is practised by Howard and other excellent shooters who do use backspin..although less from SL or SR than from SO.. is that the dice land 6 to 8 inches from the wall and hit the wall. There is no forward roll. Now,when the dice hit the wall still having backspin, they drop instantly or are supposed to. MP recommends a bowling type shot, but..whatever. Anyway, I have looked at the "chopper" shot and the sideways rotation is a beautiful thing, but unfortunately in the videos I've seen the dice are not flat in the air. They are slightly angled and that means when they hit all hell will break lose as edges hit first.
Hey..if you have a shot and you're happy with it, great. Just correcting a little point about backspin tosses done correctly. This is why the LZ is of primary importance. Also softness of throw. One bounce is all you get into the wall.
The PARR toss is predicated on the physics of the dice moving forward and spinning backwards, creating the force to slow them down in first impact. But the result of it is that they nearly always reverse direction after that hit (or go sideways) because of the nature of physics itself. Impossible to have them retain that same backwards spin after first impact. I don't think a lot of people have studied that part of the PARR toss closely enough. The better shooters know and account for the change in rotation.
I really really like the bowling style shot, where the direction of the spin matches the direction of the flight and you can actually depend on that into the wall. But stopping them becomes more difficult.
@@ProCraps Right. Again, the LZ is of primary importance if yr. going to use the backspin. If the backspinning dice hit the layout short..you're lost. One bounce is all you get. The dice hit the wall, drop. As to going sideways..every type of shot will do that now and then. Which is also why the PARR group suggested the hardways set. With the hardways set only one die has to be on axis and you will never hit a seven. The toughest set for on axis shooters is actually the 3V. I have used the 3V playing my angry don'ts game at the Paris in Vegas when I got heat for not hitting the wall hard enough. Ok..If that's what you want..Just $30 DP, lay odds, throw for the seven over and over. I found that the 3V slammed does just great.
If you set the dice so that two of the three sevens are showing , would that help a shooter to throw less sevens , or not !!!!???? Because , what are the chances that those two sevens you set will be the outcome of the throw !!!!?????
Not necessarily. Remember we have full horizontal rotation here, so there's no "axis" like you normally think of it. What you're hoping for is that one die basically stays put and the other one doesn't roll over twice (a 1-6). Anything else and you're good. This is not about sniping numbers, it's about 7 avoidance.
From a throwers perspective, because it is a natural way to grip and throw, I believe you have a better chance to get into a good, repeatable groove with it
Show us when you have a roll that actually lasts long enough to Not hit the 7 after come out roll ! Id only use your style After a point when Im playing the DP....
I'm going to start filming more live practices. Lots of people asking for that.
Very interesting, what’s is your average on Point to seven out ? Any rolls under 9 probably would turn into betting strategy, agree ? thanks
My average from picking up the dice to 7 out is about 9. But really what I'm looking for is a "Consistent 7" where I can get an actual 7 rolls every time between 7's. That becomes something I can craft an actual betting strategy around.
Excellent content John. You’ve gotten my antennas up. As a prior GTC student I always believed that the PARR toss is the bees knees.
However I must say your video intrigued me.
One question about the chopper that I hope you will answer.
The 4-2 / 4-2 HW set using the PARR TOSS has four primary outcomes, i.e. the 4 hardways.
If you set the chopper as in your video with the ones looking up at you and the sixes on the bottom how many primary outcomes are there? Just 2? The 1-1 and the 6-6?
There's not really a "primary" hit with this kind of throw. Remember that they are clearly spinning horizontally, so while I "know" that the 6's will be on the bottom, I have no idea what's on the sides as they spin to a rest.
What you kinda hope for here is that you get one die to sit still (and be a 1) and the other one only has to not tumble over exactly twice to become that 6-1. Otherwise, you've dodged it.
And frankly, so long as both die roll over at different speeds, you'll never get a 7 because of where the 1's are. When you run into trouble here is a bad landing. If they get all cattywampus on you, forget it. Just say a quick prayer!
So, I don't typically expect a great pocket of box numbers or primary face hits, I mainly expect to dodge big red a little bit more easily. I think this is why my roll length is about an 8-10 average.
@@ProCraps thanks, noted. I guess it’s not possible to enter throws into Bonetracker when using the Chopper.
@@dand.2082 I've never tried it, but it would be extremely interesting.
Wow! No disrespect, but John is wrong. The top & bottom numbers of your dice sets are ALWAYS the Axis that the dice rotate around horizontally.
I assumed that all Chopper viewers of my channel knew THAT as well ……as I explained it in my videos.
Listen…. Dice bounce, flip, flop, yaw, & everything else ….no matter HOW SKILLED the shooter! That’s a FACT!!!
Meaning, contrary to popular belief…. Keeping the top number of either die from flipping over AINT happening whether you land them far from the backwall, close to the backwall, or on the moon. 😝
There’s this thing called “ Confirmation bias”, & Practiced Shooters are notorious when it boils down to this so-called “ Influence “ thingy.
Most tosses ARE random, & this is why I say that tossing PRIMARY hits is what TRULY separates the men from the boys.
Even though it’s darn near
impossible, I EXPECT a primary hit every time that i toss the dice.
Once again… the key word is “ EXPECT ”! 🤣
THE numbers between the top & bottom dice are the FACE numbers. In other words the numbers in your tossing plane!
Each & EVERY time that your dice make initial table contact…. You are landing on the AXIS of any/all dice sets that you are using!
That is what make the toss so very difficult to toss long rolls.
If a skilled shooter was on a smooth, slick surface, they could keep the top numbers ( Axis) from flipping over.
However, we’re talking about razor sharp Casino dice being tossed on Casino surfaces.
Rounded dice ( Monopoly type dice without sharp edges being tossed on a smooth, slick surface is the IDEAL conditions for the top numbers maintaining facial integrity…. NOT Casino Craps .
I have viewed THOUSANDS of slow motion videos to know what is, & what’s NOT possible tossing the Chopper on Modern day Casino Craps tables!
Also, here’s more information for you….. Horizontal spin transitions into forward spin on bouncy surfaces, & THATS a FACT!
I do NOT claim to be a Dice Influencer, but a Thorough, Rock-solid investigator of the Chopper?………I AM!!!!!
🎲🎲 Married!!!
@@cashierscage I think we're saying the same thing, Cage but I'm using slightly different wording. Our dice are clearly flying and landing on the spinning horizontal axis. We know what's going to be on top and bottom on that first hit. So yes, the best thing about the chopper toss is that we KNOW the axis is going to stay true generally through at least 1, likely 2 of the collisions.
When I say there's "no axis" or the primary face hits, what I'm referring to is what the PARR folks talk about with their on-axis hits. The chopper as you know doesn't roll that way, so there's not an expectation that you can work on a die imploding or exploding and trying to keep the primary face hits like those folks work on all the time. Our terminology is pretty different.
I hope that clarifies my wording there.
Who is best to learn from thanks
Depends on what you want to learn, really. Nobody actively teaches the Chopper throw, but there's a few channels that you can watch where guys like me are throwing it. As for the other tosses, go with someone reputable like Howard, Dice Coach, or Axis
@john : could you please use two different colors of 🎲🎲 dice, so , I can record what die does what !!!!????
I do that on most of my morning shows and practice runs.
@@ProCraps : thanks
If...7 is the number that is fertile ..why do i never see the 7 dice setter and his strategy.
That would be silly. The entire point of “getting good” at tossing is to keep the dice longer and make more numbers, more points and more dollars. Targeting the seven gives you a single win and takes the dice from you.
So, on its face the notion of 7 sniping is nonsense except for the come out 7s.
Hey John,,, great video,,,ive been trying this toss for a while. I love how comfortable it feels,,but my dice keep separating Mid air. So my landing is way crazy. Not sure what the hell im doing wrong.
It takes a lot of practice. But you've hit on it. For me, it's 100% about comfort. I don't know if I'm doing any good for real, but I do like how they feel coming out of my hands.
Maybe you should take a class from one of the Originators of the helicopter toss to help you perfect it. There are two diff techniques I teach… the low profile and high profile toss. Both used to have different outcomes.
@@vdccdc1583 It's a date!
Is there a book are something that describes different tosses???
The people that wrote the books on this stuff are all selling their way of doing it ... and most of them use the books as way to sell their dice throwing classes or seminars.
There's a few decent ones out there, but buyer beware.
Someday, I may put an objective book together that breaks everything down, agenda-free.
The brunettes from Charlie's Angels were Kelly (Jacklyn Smith) and Sabrina (Kate Jackson)
How could I forget Jacklyn Smith? My original hall pass ;)
10+ thrower is definitely a "money maker".
All day. In fact, 4 is really all you need on the regular. Everything else is butter on the roll.
At dice-con I saw you do three hard 6s in one session did you have the 3s up, 4 down?
No, it was the 4-2 / 5-6 set that like. On the ends that's a 1 and a 4 showing up.
Great video
Glad you enjoyed it
Going to use the "chopper" this weekend in central city, co.
Thanks for posting, great dice throw. Cant wait to see how it goes
@@freders1514 practice practice…it’s definitely not for the feint of heart!
@@freders1514 Make sure and let me know how it went.
@@ProCraps
Hey John,
I experimented with the chopper this past weekend in blackhawk, co.
The Monarch casino. Had a great night. Cashed in 2500. Wish I could say it was my throw. Happened to be involved on 2 completely random shooters that went for a long time, back to back. It was awesome.
I had quite a few avg throws. A few pts hit and good numbers but nothing spectacular.
Im a 3 finger traditional dice shooter. I like the physics behind the Chopper. Definitely used it a bit but 1st time using it. It was a little unfamiliar and hard to get my landing zone dialed in. I was focusing on the finger snap and spin. Definitely needs practice and time. I could tell when the throw was good cause 1 dice stayed on the top set and close to wall. When it was off they would hit the wall and go 45 degrees to opposite directions. Wish i had a good set up to practice. Cant really practice in the heat of action.
I did practice grabbing the dice and setting up chopper style before we got there. Cool throw, one guy asked me about how I was throwing it. It didn't produce any real long rolls but again like the science behind it.
I went back to my go to dice set and throw.
Going to use the chopper every time I go and hopefully it gets refined over time.
When my normal throw was on it did rather well. 5 to 7 numbers hit. I would see them spin at the same rate and hit the lower potion on the pyramids and stick. Just like golf as you mention. The feel, the spin and landing all fall into place. When I hit chips or throw too far into the wall I would 7 out.
They take the Vig up front in Co.
Thanks for the info and great videos. Ill keep ya posted.
If you are that good you should never leave the casino
Nobody is that good. But I'm practicing to get to that mythical place where I can reliably get 3-5 scores every time I roll.
Just curious how far you progressed on your $64 yolo challenge? Do you take profit or roll to 7?
I went to Vegas after the first one, so I only just went back to my local a couple of times this past weekend. I went 2 for 2, so that's 3 for 3 overall. $127 in cheques here waiting for the next visit. I'm just going to keep bringing those cheques back and forth each visit so i keep that separate from my regular bankroll.
Live in Vegas, started @ $64 at my local casino, Red Rock, am currently up to $140. Playing bubble craps, one & done. Not sure how far I will take it. 😏
@@fredtheuberdriver Here's what you can do ... once you get it to $320 or so, where your one hit is $70, pocket that one, so you're all paid for. Then shoot the moon with it. One hit a day or one hit per visit. It's stupidly fun.
Great idea, only I think I will take the original $64, once I hit $320 and start a second $64 YOLO challenge, if your gonna go for 1 shot, why not 2 challenges @ once???????
@@fredtheuberdriver I actually have started $64 YOLO's at 3 different local casinos ;)
How far down do you place your middle finger on the edges?
I think I'm just past the middle point. If you get too low, then the top die kinda runs into your inner finger and that's a disaster waiting to happen.
George would like to see you guys debate.
Ha. No debate necessary. It's all about comfort level, not the mechanics of the throw.
@@ProCraps just trying to stir the pot! Haha
Good demo on the side spin toss aka Chopper.
Thanks 👍
It's a hard one to explain.
@@ProCraps Dice control in general is hard to explain and understand. You’re getting closer though. Keep practicing and studying it. You ask “is it real” ? My answer to that is if you can’t do it it’s not and if you can it is. All the best John
you are a random! its called a back wall
It’s all in how you hit them. Low and slow off the bumper makes a big difference. And the sideways spin does a lot. Check out the slow motion I did on CGTV that breaks it down. You’ll see a few in there that demonstrate this principle.
Not at all perfect. And barely repeatable … but possible. And that’s all that matters.
lots of Bouncy tables now too@@ProCraps
I only believe in Demos done in a live Casino recorder game with real money in a real Casino environment with no edits on a full session. Do you have any of those?@@ProCraps