Longtime bookseller in Vermont. I recently found your channel and have been binging your videos. I would’ve commented earlier but I had too much to say and was eager to get to the next video. I’ll chime in more on future podcasts but just had to thank you guys for sharing your thoughts in these videos. As an avid reader and mass consumer of BookTube content, I think you offer a unique and underrepresented perspective compared to the vast array of voices out there, and I value your opinions. This untangling of postmodern literature is one of the best bookish conversations I’ve encountered in a long time. Keep it up!
Really interesting conversation! I’m writing a novel that has a lot of elements of postmodern literature and I’ve honestly become infatuated with the type of books the term usually encompasses. Doing further research into the perspectives people have on the topic lead me to stumble upon this video and I’m happy I did!
Seth has THE voice! Bonus points for him having a RWS Tarot deck! I took a Modern Novel class at University in the late Seventies, and the syllabus included The Crying of Lot 49, but it's actually postmodern. I highly recommend the book The World Broke in Two by Bill Goldstein, regarding the relationship between Woolf, Eliot, Lawrence, and Forster. If you are departing from the "traditional " type of literature, you must have a firm grasp on the starting point. Picasso and Dali started out painting in a realist style. Some contemporary writers base their writing on their peers' work rather than the work of the writers who came before them.
Very high-level trialog on the subject: much better (and, of course, entertaining) than anything academic because the passion of reading is foremost. I really enjoyed the back-and-forth discussion that reflects foremost a passion for reading the primary texts as opposed to the academic pent toward reading about texts about those texts...or texts about texts about....those texts (i.e. secondary literature). Ideological postmodernism (especially Focault´s power relations, oppressor-opressed , etc. which is the whole Jordan Peterson opposes) cannot be conflated with the literary sort under discussion. Literary postmodernism is probably more about open, floating-meaning text (range of meanings, interpretation) and the importance and role of the reader in creating meaning rather than any number of qualities inherent to the text, or the closed, fixed-meaning text (perhaps dictated by the Holy Spirit, but not revised or proofed by the Father or Son). This goes back to J.L. Borges (tell me how they read in the future, and I will tell you what the literature will be like) who said that "Sacred Texts" are only that because they are read with...."reverence" or a certain aura of awe not conferred on other text (this idea collapses with the postmodern writers who deconstruct univocal meaning or qualities inherent to the text regardless of the reader). My vote for a Postmodern classic that exemplifies all this: Paul Auster´sThe New York Trilogy. And J.L. Borges´writing in the 40s (take his "Pierre Menard") calls attention to modes of reading being, indeed, more important than modes of writing and without whiich the latter simply do not or cannot exist. Thus, all texts becomes modes of reading first, and modes of writing secondly. In Lacanian terms, postmodernism would be the multiverse of meaning versus the previous, God-centered universe of Christendom.
Maybe postmodernism is the end of movements. Modernism broke the rules and everything after is untethered for better or worse. Any movement would constrict received freedoms rather than providing new ones
This was an interesting discussion, I enjoyed it very much. It got me thinking about the end of postmodernism, and I have a theory on this: I believe the fragmentation and chaos we experience is purely a bandwidth issue, whereby human beings are simply incapable of processing all the data in the sea of information. With the arrival of AI and biological compute we may see a world in which AI filters and synthesizes all this information and returns us to a more stable and harmonized reality through speed and order, concealing the fragmentation from us. Society could then move back to something akin to a grand narrative (most likely generated by AI, which would mean a loss of agency). Alternatively, a different kind of fragmentation could arise within a multiverse reality, and in the non-digital world, through the decentralization of society as a whole. In either scenario, I think postmodernism (particularly later stage postmodernism) would be looked back upon as a kind of transitional period into a fourth turning. AI is our next nuclear bomb. That would probably be worth writing about, I think.
I enjoyed your conversation! I would add to your discussion and the remarks of some of the commentators that post-modernism is also the criticism or removal of the authoritative authorial voice. I mean that who counts as authoritative changed as well. I am much older than you all and was in college/grad school in the 1980s and 1990s. I remember the fierce fights over "the Western Canon" - should students be required to study it or should it be replaced with literature that highlights voices from women, sexual minorities, and especially people from previously colonized countries? The post-modernists were basically tired of reading lit from people who were "pale, male, and stale" (so the saying went). For them, the Western Canon only exists because old, Euro-American authorities said it did, and post-modernism was at least partly the attempt to throw out the canon. Harold Bloom wrote a book disputing this rejecting of the Canon, but the fight was intense and almost split the academy apart at times!
My take on it as a spohmoric college student is that I'd define the post modern modern and post post modernism by changes in communications technology. Ie the wide spread adposition of the radio and mass produced print media tv and the intranet. If I'd say when post modernism ended it would probably be 9/11.
The actual term for the nuclear Mexican standoff is mutually assured destruction (or MAD), which has been the cornerstone of our global strategic policy basically since the invention of the H bomb. Also, I think it’s a bit ironic that the three of you are so hung up on finding a definition. In philosophy, it’s a modern to post modern idea that the quest for essences via definitions is largely a fool’s game. Let’s face it, you would probably have the same problem if you tried to define the novel. I was hoping for some discussion of the use of the term, and perhaps a bit on looking at particular examples, beyond Pynchon.
(I can't find my Jordan Peterson copy anywhere...)I must have swapped it with Don Carpenter's Hard Rain Falling! Haha... Best regards to all Slipknot and Tool fans out there!
@@irena7777777For some reason, though I tried to answer you straight away, my answer never arrived.(not the first time it happens) I hope it will now. Yes! Hard Rain Falling is a great book, and I'm glad I read it. It moved me deeply, I still think about the main characters, and I loved the writing style. Read it by all means!
'We are the product' is interesting but I think of it a stage beyond that. Our data is the product. We are just the carrier of that data and mobile phones and apps are just data harvesting tools. Ultimately, in less than a century, we will be embedded within a world of data, rather than the other way round.
Longtime bookseller in Vermont. I recently found your channel and have been binging your videos. I would’ve commented earlier but I had too much to say and was eager to get to the next video. I’ll chime in more on future podcasts but just had to thank you guys for sharing your thoughts in these videos. As an avid reader and mass consumer of BookTube content, I think you offer a unique and underrepresented perspective compared to the vast array of voices out there, and I value your opinions. This untangling of postmodern literature is one of the best bookish conversations I’ve encountered in a long time. Keep it up!
@@philstrand thank you!
Really interesting conversation! I’m writing a novel that has a lot of elements of postmodern literature and I’ve honestly become infatuated with the type of books the term usually encompasses. Doing further research into the perspectives people have on the topic lead me to stumble upon this video and I’m happy I did!
Seth has THE voice! Bonus points for him having a RWS Tarot deck!
I took a Modern Novel class at University in the late Seventies, and the syllabus included The Crying of Lot 49, but it's actually postmodern.
I highly recommend the book The World Broke in Two by Bill Goldstein, regarding the relationship between Woolf, Eliot, Lawrence, and Forster.
If you are departing from the "traditional " type of literature, you must have a firm grasp on the starting point. Picasso and Dali started out painting in a realist style. Some contemporary writers base their writing on their peers' work rather than the work of the writers who came before them.
You're far too kind. That tarot deck became a necessity after my first crack at GR
If I ever write a book, I'm commissioning Seth to narrate the audio edition.
I feel out of place without a beard...
Literally found your tiktok today, and started following you everywhere and on patron ofc 😊
Thanks for posting amazing content
Thank you so much for your support! Happy to have you in the community.
I'm only 15 minutes in, but I'm really enjoying Seth as a guest! I love listening to these while I work
Appreciate your kind words! Hoping to be back on future episode(s)
Our schtick of seeming more legit than we are by having excellent guests continues!
I joined ur patron btw, fannnntastic!
@@Unbeastable718 awesome! Glad to have you!
Excellent guest. Just joined your Patreon. Thank you!
@@kevinmosher6027 thanks for being part of the community!
Very high-level trialog on the subject: much better (and, of course, entertaining) than anything academic because the passion of reading is foremost. I really enjoyed the back-and-forth discussion that reflects foremost a passion for reading the primary texts as opposed to the academic pent toward reading about texts about those texts...or texts about texts about....those texts (i.e. secondary literature).
Ideological postmodernism (especially Focault´s power relations, oppressor-opressed , etc. which is the whole Jordan Peterson opposes) cannot be conflated with the literary sort under discussion. Literary postmodernism is probably more about open, floating-meaning text (range of meanings, interpretation) and the importance and role of the reader in creating meaning rather than any number of qualities inherent to the text, or the closed, fixed-meaning text (perhaps dictated by the Holy Spirit, but not revised or proofed by the Father or Son). This goes back to J.L. Borges (tell me how they read in the future, and I will tell you what the literature will be like) who said that "Sacred Texts" are only that because they are read with...."reverence" or a certain aura of awe not conferred on other text (this idea collapses with the postmodern writers who deconstruct univocal meaning or qualities inherent to the text regardless of the reader). My vote for a Postmodern classic that exemplifies all this: Paul Auster´sThe New York Trilogy. And J.L. Borges´writing in the 40s (take his "Pierre Menard") calls attention to modes of reading being, indeed, more important than modes of writing and without whiich the latter simply do not or cannot exist. Thus, all texts becomes modes of reading first, and modes of writing secondly. In Lacanian terms, postmodernism would be the multiverse of meaning versus the previous, God-centered universe of Christendom.
Maybe postmodernism is the end of movements. Modernism broke the rules and everything after is untethered for better or worse. Any movement would constrict received freedoms rather than providing new ones
I'm glad you enjoyed the chat, and appreciate the insight!
You know what? I'm in!
Agreed
Brooooooooo! Love all your videos!
Thank you my friend 🙏
This was an interesting discussion, I enjoyed it very much. It got me thinking about the end of postmodernism, and I have a theory on this: I believe the fragmentation and chaos we experience is purely a bandwidth issue, whereby human beings are simply incapable of processing all the data in the sea of information. With the arrival of AI and biological compute we may see a world in which AI filters and synthesizes all this information and returns us to a more stable and harmonized reality through speed and order, concealing the fragmentation from us. Society could then move back to something akin to a grand narrative (most likely generated by AI, which would mean a loss of agency). Alternatively, a different kind of fragmentation could arise within a multiverse reality, and in the non-digital world, through the decentralization of society as a whole. In either scenario, I think postmodernism (particularly later stage postmodernism) would be looked back upon as a kind of transitional period into a fourth turning. AI is our next nuclear bomb. That would probably be worth writing about, I think.
I could definitely see AI having such a potential, the bigger question is, will it be used for that even if it can be used for that?
I enjoyed your conversation! I would add to your discussion and the remarks of some of the commentators that post-modernism is also the criticism or removal of the authoritative authorial voice. I mean that who counts as authoritative changed as well. I am much older than you all and was in college/grad school in the 1980s and 1990s. I remember the fierce fights over "the Western Canon" - should students be required to study it or should it be replaced with literature that highlights voices from women, sexual minorities, and especially people from previously colonized countries? The post-modernists were basically tired of reading lit from people who were "pale, male, and stale" (so the saying went). For them, the Western Canon only exists because old, Euro-American authorities said it did, and post-modernism was at least partly the attempt to throw out the canon. Harold Bloom wrote a book disputing this rejecting of the Canon, but the fight was intense and almost split the academy apart at times!
Great insight! Thank you for sharing. "pale, male, and stale" is a great phrase.
Great discussion
My take on it as a spohmoric college student is that I'd define the post modern modern and post post modernism by changes in communications technology. Ie the wide spread adposition of the radio and mass produced print media tv and the intranet. If I'd say when post modernism ended it would probably be 9/11.
Harold Bloom was my guru for all literature and poetry.
The actual term for the nuclear Mexican standoff is mutually assured destruction (or MAD), which has been the cornerstone of our global strategic policy basically since the invention of the H bomb.
Also, I think it’s a bit ironic that the three of you are so hung up on finding a definition. In philosophy, it’s a modern to post modern idea that the quest for essences via definitions is largely a fool’s game. Let’s face it, you would probably have the same problem if you tried to define the novel. I was hoping for some discussion of the use of the term, and perhaps a bit on looking at particular examples, beyond Pynchon.
(I can't find my Jordan Peterson copy anywhere...)I must have swapped it with Don Carpenter's Hard Rain Falling! Haha...
Best regards to all Slipknot and Tool fans out there!
Is Hard Rain Falling good? I have it but haven’t read it yet?
@@irena7777777 Ι'm around the middle of it and, yeah, it has definitely absorbed me. I believe you should give it a try.
@@irena7777777I'm around the middle of it and, yeah, it has definitely absorbed me. I believe you should give it a try.
@@irena7777777 It's very good.
@@irena7777777For some reason, though I tried to answer you straight away, my answer never arrived.(not the first time it happens) I hope it will now. Yes! Hard Rain Falling is a great book, and I'm glad I read it. It moved me deeply, I still think about the main characters, and I loved the writing style. Read it by all means!
If reading Arno Schmidt and Cisco doesn't in fact make him better than you and me, i dunno what does😤
They say Schmidt readers are a riot at parties...
'We are the product' is interesting but I think of it a stage beyond that. Our data is the product. We are just the carrier of that data and mobile phones and apps are just data harvesting tools. Ultimately, in less than a century, we will be embedded within a world of data, rather than the other way round.
Scary stuff for sure.
I used to be like Andy where I read all the meme post modern works like Pynchon and Wallace. He will get older and move on from those.
@@Etherchannelwhy do you think that?
what did you move on to read from those?