Creatives vs Suits - The Business of Tekken
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- Опубліковано 10 жов 2024
- Genmaji gate really got yall tight lmao
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#FGC #tekken #tekken8 #fightinggames #bandainamco #harada #heihachi #dlc #genmaji #temple #stage #seasonpass
Interesting to see Obama to transition into something he once hated - a shill. Why is Harada's statement something to applaud ?
How am I shilling by also thinking it sucks ass, saying that, but taking WHAT he said and drawing meaning from that? This is highlighting a case study how and why modern games pubs esp from JP side can do the most random anti player stuff.... how is me saying that "PR?" Lmao
You can be critical of mistakes but also praise people taking accountability. A LOT of games I have played don't have faces that would do this.
You have dogshit comprehension. Continue to warp reality to fit your worldview, pussy
@@doogies my man called the season pass stuff "I'm my opinion, anti-player" near the end of the video and STILL gets called a shill.
@@AnActualDinosauru cant tell these people anything man 😅
@@doogies what accountability? Harada only made a statement because people were mad. He had an opportunity to make this situation completely clear, yet he didn't. Obviously people misunderstood as I'm sure he and bamco expected. If there was no noise about it, there would be no statements, Harada would've kept quiet. It's not the first lie or deception, during launch of t8 they promised matchmaking improvements , netcode improvements. Nothing was done. They've even made mm worse by making it prowess based and now they reverted that change. I'm sure big wigs at Bamco indeed pushing tekken team to all do this battle pass, tekken shop bs, but why make promises you can't hold? Just like it was in t7 promising free legacy characters
First, I like how you are now addressing harada exclusively and not what you (erroneously) said about me given context.
Second, the point is that this DOES NOT excuse anything, but it's to highlight a few things (warning, not ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE EXCEPTIONALLY NEGATIVE so if you just want raw outrage about everything this might go over your head):
+ the separation of publisher and development teams on this specific project, how they have VERY different goals and values, and how one can interfere with the other or meddle. Furthermore, this is a case study of this struggle (referenced in the title) on how this kind of team composition and relationship on modern game projects is PROBABLY not uncommon, and might even be a culprit in missteps in other games, studios, and their projects. Fighting games and non fighting games alike. It's an explanation, not necessarily an excuse. You might need to be an adult to see the difference.
+ harada is in the position of when things go well, he gets credit. When things go poorly? Who puts themselves out there and attaches a face to the company for people to blame? This is a catch 22. Now ask yourself, just in fighting games alone, when things have gone poorly or there has been controversy, how many of them put themselves out there in the same way? Honestly I can't think of one, even the visible ones like Ed boon etc that have done the same in this way. When strive has issues, who speaks up? No one, you have a faceless arcsys Twitter. Same for some other titles. This is RARE. That's why I spoke on it and said there is SOMETHING TO BE APPRECIATED about a figurehead willing to stand on both sides of a game in public. This doesn't excuse the controversy, it appreciates that someone on the company side is willing to stand up and engage in good faith.
+ the content passes, this stage, and various monetization issues are made worse by a few factors: NA and EU audiences being allergic to mtx, (theoretically, due to losses from Blue Protocol) the publisher side pushing for awkward monetization practices to match the awkward content rollout. Now we have context as to why.
Appreciate you engaging man but if the best you got is hearing me call something "anti-player" then you respond with "shill" (????), then kindly exit stage right and begone. Consider that maybe we don't feel that differently, I just don't express anger in the same way as you do. Truth is, as a player, I don't buy any of this stuff outside the characters because it isn't for me and doesn't interest me. As an event organizer (currently one of the largest weekly ones in the world) I do think deeply about this kind of stuff though and the impact it can have beyond my immediate feelings as a player.
Be well and grow.
Harada’s response gives you a close image of what it is like to develop games for current gen: developer and publisher are more than likely separated, and while one side is more close to the scene, the other side prioritizes making money. Without clear communication, everything can fall apart.
Man you said it. A micro point I wanted to invoke is how the real problem here is NOT BAMCO exclusive...
But the separation is exactly what allows there to be a voice for the quality of the game. Imagine a world where the monetization wizards were joined at the hip with the devs and we’d be seeing paid powerups that affect competitive play, as is already common in sports games.
@@RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS77 if you keep track most of the sports games that used to have shitty monetization are now slowly dying, or governments are becoming aware and making sure consumers are told “look, loot boxes are gambling. Just so you know.” Also, if you know that monetization is there from the start then you won’t be shocked when you buy the game. Better know at the beginning than later on.
@@KAKA42-c3t Madden, FIFA, Gran Turismo, etc., are dying? Must be news to everyone selling a gazillion copies and God knows how much IAP
Damn Obama you on the UA-cam grind with this and the scrub busters videos. Keep it up brother
Trying man. In spite of youtubes efforts against me....we persevere
you really have a talent for just explaining stuff. Presenting information in a very digestible way and bringing a unique perspective and your talent as a storyteller. Very grateful that you're able to make content like this!
Wow, thank you!
If you consider all the monetization around Tekken 8, you would think it is a free-to-play game.
Yeah this is the main issue to me. They won't commit to a model. Paid game with f2p content rollout
Paid game, paid DLC characters, predatory currency system, paid seasons passes, paid cosmetic shop, paid stages.
@@carlosroca4645just like street fighter 6 sadly
I think we can lay a lot of the blame on the people who spent money to prove that almost all that bullshit could work for Street Fighter V. I dropped the game at the start of Season 3, when Capcom made damn sure no one could ever unlock a new character with gameplay again.
they should release the data on how much they've made on costumes lol
I think we can chalk this one up to "Pick your battles" type of situation. Remember Harada is just one piece of Bamco and if the majority says "Hey, lets charge players for this DLC" and majority says yay..then what can he do. Kudos to Harada for putting his neck on the block like that.
The ancient struggle of creativity vs the soulless apparatus of making a living
For real, I don't know the details of Tekken 8 but most people don't realize how close a lot of these games are to having the plug pulled on them altogether. Making games is super expensive, time consuming and annoying as hell. Everybody wants a wage increase ALL the time and they deserve it because most people who make games could get jobs in other industry's that are way easier and pay the same or more. But also the investors are watching their pay roll eat chunks out of their profit margin, to the point of defeating the purpose of investing in a game at all. Realistically the modern game industry is structured more like a monthly subscription, but players don't want that so we are left with this awkward middle ground where developers are spending a fortune Post release and devising all sorts of ways to recoup.
Goes beyond making a living. Soulless apparatus of "corpo"
Liberation is a TOS violation.
I work for a corporation where it feels like the marketing and sales department has carte blanche to do whatever the fuck they want with zero regards for how it's going to impact the rest of the company. Harada's explanation felt so familiar it would be funny if it didn't cause unnecessary dissatisfaction within the Tekken community.
That's real!
What is the point of a season pass then if they’re going to keep sneaking stuff out to pinch from your wallet? There’s a battle pass too by the way, so scummy.
Imo you can have either an mtx shop for cosmetics OR a season pass, doing both and charging separately for stages is way too far in a full priced game
@@Ratta212 it's not. The character pass is separate from mtx.
@@FireTrainer92 I know, I'm saying I think games doing both a season pass and MTX is going too far with monetization
I'd tell people not to buy the stage, but who are we kidding?
I don't understand these questions. You've been aware of how capitalism works, and know about the BS "duty to stochkholders".
How have you gotten to this age and not understand companies don't give a flying ef about you and will try and take ALL your money and do not care if this puts you in poverty.
Your question is essentially, why are captiitalists doing capitalism....
Let's not forget that the battle-pass went unmentioned until it was added to the game after the initial two week refund window...
Edit: Completely forgot the Tekken Store and Tekken Coins were added in the same update.
Also: The apology tweet got deleted.
Who is that dumb to refund a game just for a battle pass ?
@@OctopusH2O everyone with common sense you fucking shill.
I almost ignored the battle pass because of how low effort it is lol
@@OctopusH2O One may as well ask "Who is that dumb to tolerate a battle pass and virtual currency in a full-price game?". This shit went too far years ago; now, we are all assumed to be marks.
i think part of the issue with Tekken is that the stage isn't purely aesthetic -- shape and boundaries are part of individual character meta. so when one buys the season pass in order to have access to the complete competitive roster, i think there's a backlash in not having access to the stages as well.
I think that statement from Harada was as good as anyone could have asked for. He was really transparent and even took the blame for some aspects that i wouldnt even have said were fully his fault. Hopefully people will consider that while still rightfully criticizing Bandai Namco. And i say BN because this is hardly their first rodeo with having multiple editions of which none of them are fully complete for 1st season in some aspect. Nowadays i always find myself researching on product pages or reddit on which editions to buy if i have questions because even ultimate editions have an asterisk.
Stages are way to integral to the gameplay in Tekken 8 that you can't not include with the season pass. I'd imagine dojo events are required to buy every stage?
This directly takes advantage of the grassroots scene which is already expected to buy so much, this just feels like a slap in the face.
Hmm...actually I don't see why they would *need* to have all stages for a tournament. Like sure it's not great optics if a stage is unselectable, but nobody mains a stage y'know. So long as the characters are present, then extra stages are optional IMO.
Yeah the core fans are the ones you end up milking too hard
@@AirLancer Because stages influence matchups, all the stages need to be available just like all the characters need to be available.
To be honest I don't give a fuck how Bandai-Namco are organising themselves to get a game out the door, and people should be angry about paying for a season "pass" and then having to buy more on top of that. "Transparency" is one thing, and I'm sure that if people had known what they were or were not purchasing it would have alleviated a lot of people's issues, but I'm in the camp that would have been pissed off at the extra purchase no matter how well they let me know about it beforehand. You don't get the stage in the season pass? Come on man...
I do wish that people would realise how little certain individuals or groups like 'developers' have on how a game is monetised, but then I also totally agree that Harada being the figurehead that he is is great for Tekken communities; it gives a faceless corporation a face with which people can air issues to.
I was already annoyed there's already a list of reasons why I & a lot of people moved on.I still play I prefer offline & play those that I know instead.
Idk man, Harada isn't innocent either. Remember when he and Murray charged us all $5 for frame data? Or the fact that he said he would never charge for DLC characters or stages during TTT2 and made a complete 180 by the very next mainline game? Or how they intentionally released Leroy, Fahk and Lidia in absolutely busted states just to sell them before pre-meditated nerfs?
Like, yeah, I get that Harada is trying to save face, but these guys don't have the best track record. I genuinely don't understand how people still trust Harada and co.
@@suedeloaf9527 I personally wouldn't fully trust Harada saying anything that isn't "I want to make money", and I don't think he is beyond taking fault for things he may be responsible for, but I also don't think that you can blame him for everything, that it's acceptable to send abuse to him for decisions that are out of his control, and also I still think it's a good thing to have someone that you can complain to that feels obligated to fix things. People tend to want to put a face to companies, just like English speaking ArcSys fans gravitated to complaining to Shini because there was nobody else.
Basically I think you should blame the corporations, but complain to a person if you can.
Good post I agree with a lot of
@@suedeloaf9527 You act as though Harada-san (honorific intact because I want Mokujin back) controlled whether and when Tekken got DLC characters, whether frame data was sold as DLC, or the release dates for Tekken 7's characters. Do you think that the US President writes laws?
Harada has been a blessing with his Twitter posts like this. I feel like for many communities, there's almost kind of a veil between the consumers and the business itself. Loyal, longtime fans of the series can only guess at the decisions made, and it's not as if I don't understand why but it can cause a lot of grief as a result. Even with just him taking the time to explain this stuff it kinda gives a little peek through that veil, and I appreciate that if nothing else.
I don't play Tekken but I have a lot of respect for Harada, he shows up when things are not going well and always takes responsibility for it. Great dev and a great leader.
Agreed
It's nice that Harada made an apology and explained more about the behind the scenes but why should I care about that as a consumer, if that's all they are going to be doing?
It seems like they use their lack of transparency as a way to nickel and dime their fanbase more and more. Like, in Tekken 7, the stages were included in the ultimate edition/season pass. I think it's reasonable that people would assume that this would continue for Tekken 8 when it did not. They had plenty of Tekken Talks or other opportunities to bring it up but they never did. That's not even mentioning how they hid that the game would have microtransactions past the release of the game. They really fucked over the ultimate edition buyers since the ultimate edition is not very ultimate (does not include a lot of content in the game)
Yeah ultimate edition in retrospect kinda an L if you didn't get the JP ver
Regardless if characters come in a season pass. The character, the stage, and music, should ALWAYS be sold TOGETHER holistically.
These 3 things are intrinsically tied together so they should never be separate when you purchase the foundation of them, which is the character.
Good discussion vid
Plenty of other games have sold characters in packs without the extra stuff, though. Granblue sold stages separate with character passes. Not an excuse, just an example that this is nothing new and will become the standard without any resistance.
@@strippinheatWhen it comes to levels/stages that affect gameplay these days many games don't charge for them in their pvp. Did you know that call of duty offers every map free since like 2019-2020 including zombies maps. Open up almost any pvp game. Granblue doesn't affect gameplay last I remember just like SF6.
Would have been easier to accept if not for the micro transactions bombarding my face every patch and now put the $5 stage on top of that?
It's like one notification on launch. Genuinely confused at what you mean by "bombarding my face." Seeing bullshit on other people's characters?
I still don't know how I feel about fighting games going the live service route.
Unlike a lot of other live service games it feels like there isn't a lot of give with fighting games compared to their contemporaries.
Most of their peers either have the game and maps are free and you pay for character/skins, or the characters and maps are free and you pay for the game/skins.
I think a lot of these things would go over a lot more smoothly if felt like there was some sort of give.
Kinda seems like the publishing side are trying to have their cake and eat it too.
I feel for Harada and the Team.
I don't think enough people want to admit that fighting games are basically live service games. You pay just as much if not more for fighters like you would for typical live service games. But personally I wouldn't mind buying the game, including all of the characters and then buying skins. But the publishing side would probably effect the game side and make the default skins boring as fuck on purpose.
Consistent structure and commitment to a format would go along way. Paid releases with f2p content rollout is not the wave
Well said man! And for those thinking Obama is joking here: 4:55, HE'S NOT! THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED! And Harada have to deal with this type of people daily, I would have gone mad long time ago 😂 Also anyone who worked for a decently-sized company would understand this struggle with the higher ups and the diferent actors(departments and shareholders) within the company. He also wrote extensibly about his struggle in that tweet replying that guy about Soul Calibur, how he was able challenge the higher ups sometimes and how they tried to move him to a more "suit" role, but he activelly fought against it, to stay in the development (where the passion really is). Bamco is doing bad decisions obviously, but people blaming Harada personally for that are so clueless about how the world really works lmao
I feel like the "easiest" recourse would be to include future stages with the current pass, and give everyone who already purchased the stage the equivalent in Bryan Bucks.
Even without Harada explicitly telling us that essentially two entities handle the franchise, you could definitely feel something was off when they pulled an Activision and released the MTX post launch, dodging reviews.
It feels like a spit in the face of your fans to go from complete series revival to underhanded tactics like that, especially when most of what they're offering is stuff when had in the prior game.
No problems with what you said here!
Harada recently said that works been stressing him out and he didn’t even notice how much weight he’s lost.
Stuff like that paired with this it really feels like his energy is being sapped with the current trajectory of the industry.
Can’t help but feel for the guy because this franchise is his baby
All they had to do was be transparent during the Tekken Talk. They had an opportunity to be ahead of the negative backlash, but they didn't. They waited for the players to make the discovery, so the backlash is validated.
I too bought the Ultimate edition and expected the stage to part of the pass. If they had said beforehand that the stage was an extra purchase, most of us wouldn't have been enraged by this move.
Love the game and continued development and communication by the dev team, so I'm hoping they learn from this mistep for future content releases.
Never gonna get that type of transparency sadly as my post above..it was pick your battles type of situation
I agree they def should have made it clearer leading up to the drop. I didn't watch the heihachi or lidia talks live, crazy they didn't tbh
Tifa is the only apology that I would accept at this point because not including the stage with the season pass when you can play on it for free in the story mode is silly.
I really don't want fighting games to be a genre that only has ELO grinding and buying shit as options like every other genre.
Its halfway there with how the player base just uses rank and will use 'plugging' measures to preserve the PNG rank symbol they are protecting. But I think modern FGs are somewhat more sustainable when sold as a piecemeal product. BamCo just has to be much more transparent with their marketing when selling the product that way. Also maybe letting prospective players 'try out' these products in some form of testing mode. There will always be that crowd of folks who don't want to commit to a character but want to lab against them. Same with the stages and the different elements it has that would affect movement and combo potential.
We already on that path I'm afraid
I already review bombed when they added the fucking in-game shop after release
If a Waffle House stage was a $10 standalone, all of America would buy it.
Seems he's being more of a shield than a leader here. Words are words.
I've accepted that T8 isn't for me, but I do feel for both the fans and Harada. Feels good to have an advocate like him on the inside
“Our birth right” lmao… Harada’s statement seems so sincere, and I want to receive it that way. We won’t know until they can show us. Here’s hoping.
Yeah gotta show us something or the goodwill is gone
People complain about micro transactions but T7 you had to pay for fucking frame data wich should be a crime in the fgc
The frame data paid was bad too yea
I am old enough that I was almost grateful the frame data DLC was even being sold outside of Japan, instead of needing to know someone who had bought a Japanese magazine to get frame data.
Heihachi: You owe me $7!
Tekken Players: Oh yeah? Why's that?
Heihachi: Cuz I taught you how to EWGF... *wave dashes out of the Genmaji Temple*
Bandai Namco has been knocking it out of park with good communication lately when it comes to Tekken.
But there are no two ways about it. Tekken 8 has shitty and toxic monetization. There isn't an issue of communication here. It is the actions of Bandai Namco and their readiness to test our good will and what we are willing to bear.
I love Tekken 8. I'm probably up to having spent 200€ on the game alone by now just because I am owning it on multiple platforms. I feel like I've paid them plenty already and I don't feel any desire to pay them more.
On its head you could see it as a nice gesture that they made the story DLC free and that another DLC should be paid for to make up for it. But then you need to look past the fact that this story DLC seems to have been planned to be a part of the base game all along. Like to me this just feels like when I get a free early access story update in a game like Abiotic Factor. Call me entitled but that is my feeling. That said I did like the Story DLC.
And now even if I did want to buy the stage DLC. It just makes no sense as a separate purchase. If I buy it, can I play it with my friends? If I don't buy it will I still play on it in ranked? Like it could be cool if it contained some unique and interesting stage gimmicks. But even so If I want to run this in tournaments do I need to buy it for every tournament setup? I legit want to now want the Tekken World Tour rules are regarding this. If I hate endless stages as a player I guess I could buy this stage to improve my random select odds online and at tournaments lol.
Like our Local scene are struggling with money right now because it is so damn expensive to renew season passes for all our setups on top of new games coming out.
Like I love Tekken 8. But it is hard not to laugh at these shameless shenanigans Bandai Namco is trying to pull. Been trying not to waste too much energy thinking about it. Heihachi looks sick.
Agreed with a lot of points here
I am one of the people in the steam reviews.
I think what they are doing right now is absolutely murdering their brand when they most need to strengthen it. We are at the point where a stage costs 5 dollars in the worst economy I've ever experienced. This and releasing the game, letting reviews come in, then announcing the shop (I mean I kinda knew that legit costumes would cost money, I'm not dense) AND a battlepass system (absolutely hate this crap) is just a lot of scumbag shit man. If they had told me right at the jump that it was gonna be like this I would not have even touched the game in the first place (which makes it feel even shittier on a personal level). I left a negative review because it is the only proven way to have these people examine the issue, whether they fix it or not, and because, well, it truly means I would not recommend the game to anyone.
Love your stuff man. One of the only people I can actually watch every video. Appreciate your perspective and takes. Also worth noting, I really like Harada and Murray and I do not in any way think this is their fault. I've worked corporate bullshit jobs, I know exactly how terrible ideas get dictated to the grunts and then they have to go take all the heat for the bad decisions.
They definitely have lost A LOT of goodwill, and for good reason. Lot of missteps that are hard to understand or explain until haradas explanation of the team structure.
Thanks for watching and sharing man. Humbling
@@doogies Yeah man, I love that Harada is as transparent as he is about everything. I'm waiting for the Bandai Namco cartoon cane to come snake in from off stage and drag his ass out for saying half the stuff he does. I wish more people in the industry were allowed to talk to people like he does, like actual humans, instead of coming out like jobber, bargain bin Steve Jobs' and trying to "Hey there fellow gamerinos!" us all. Shit, Thank YOU man! Keeping discourse real and keeping us sane out here.
Paying for Heihachi is like paying for Goku when sparking zero comes out.
SSB Goku and Vegeta is still a dlc in DBFZ, sure it's obtainable by just playing or getting better more expensive version of the game (or preorder iirc), but...
It's always been like this with publishers, not developers, trying to maximize money. That's no excuse, just a reason. And the users have been forced to accept less and less for more if they want product. Remember when a "season pass" included all post-launch stuff? Now a "season" is a year, or even less. And then they changed them to things like "character passes" that didn't include non-character items like stages, and even then still had some characters not included because they were pre-order only characters (looking at you, NRS). Remember when Harada said selling characters in Tekken would be like selling chess pieces separately, and that's why Tag 2 characters were all free? This is one of those actual slippery slopes that people worry about but is actually happening due to the capitalist system. None of this is to make enough money to barely survive, but to maximize profits beyond that, and then not use it for future development. Corporations are not your friends, and capitalism kills art and innovation.
Always appreciate your thoughts
People are right to be mad! Thanks for watching
Harada is like the only person who actually makes good use of the Twitlonger function.
I think im fine charging for stages in general BUT they should be included in the “character” passes
Also cant forget the waffle house
harada going out of his way to do this is very nice and trust me you dont want an nrs type shit were they will just shadow nerf your char or assist for no god damn reason, Harada and this communication we get is honestly very nice and i hope nrs takes notes on this
Harada gets the backlash but let's be fair. He gets the praise too when something really good happens with Tekken.
I can't remember a single competitive pvp game in the last 5yrs that charges for maps when they do affect the matches. Heck even street fighter it has a freemium buy option in their game(drive tickets) and their season pass offers a nice lumpsum of those(4k on base pass, stages are 5k cost).
It feels awful when you drop a bundle of cash get the "extras included ham edition" but season 1 releases include things that ain't in the gone ham edition. I felt it with sf6 with costumes and colors
Facts
It's a shame in our world that "The people with good ideas." and "The people making the decisions." are not usually the same people.
The fact that we have Harada in the position he is is great. Even though Nakayama-san and Matsumoto-san are the faces of Street Fighter 6 and we love to see them, we don't really seem to rally to or with them like Harada. That could just be because of the language barrier that Harada has relatively overcome but when something's wrong we yell at Capcom and not them(though I don't use Twitter so maybe the freaks there do).
To me its simply that the people creating aren't the ones in control anymore. One party is trying to execute a vision, the other trying to hustle. That's how we end up with this...
Idc how they advertised it, the game is already 70 bucks and you need the character pass and you STILL need to buy the stage separately.
It’s ridiculous
All they needed to do was make it abundantly clear that stages are not included in the season pass from the get go and the community wouldn’t have been in such an uproar.
Yeah that's what I said. Rather than make it clear it wasn't, they simply advertised what you did get, thinking people were reading the bold print. Then when they gave away the beach, it kind of reinforced what people were used to? That's what I meant by that. Unfortunately was not the right move
I think you pretty much covered everything perfectly.
They calling me a shill 🤣
As someone learning a little stock stuff on the side, tell their cfo you can build some easy good will on the balance sheet if they just put all the stages in the pass right now.
almost the same confusion with the Season pass for SF6, that not include costumes for the base roster
Even with Harada’s apology, I can imagine some of developers must feel frustrated having to deal with the backlash. It sucks that the stage is not in the pass but I’ll live. Miscommunication with fans seems to happen a lot with Bandai Namco. Also based on what I see on YT, people are a lot more volatile with how games are made and monetized.
The thing is, we're eating good in the FGC right now. When there are so many great fighting games available, why would I want to play the one that wants to nickel and dime me in every way possible?
That's real!
the Tifa - Waffle House stage dlc combo for the price of an All Star Special is the perfect compromise for the businessmen and players 🙂↕️🤝🙂↕️
Obamna got that heihachi hairline poppin off
I don't have a problem with the stage costing 5 bucks and being sold separately, but I agree that it should have been clearly shown in the ads/announcements/guides etc.
What bothers me much more is the tons of stuff that is probably of no use to anyone and is at best a one-time gimmick. Okay, the battle hub SF6 avatars look funny and sometimes even good, but the wolf costume for the price of the pass - again, even this can be okayish (music, stickers, pictures - I will gladly pay for this), but when you think that this took effort and money to make that could have been spent on character costumes and stages, which I could have spent the same money on - it makes you a little sad.
Tekken 8, Guilty Gear Strive - did they ever ask anyone or just wonder if anyone thinks that all this (lobbies and lobby avatars) looks good and makes sense? The "shitty" lobbies of BlazeBlue or Xrd and a bunch of other games are still winning in look by a margin simply because no one made them with the goal of "this should appeal to a potential wide audience, the one that doesn't exist - but we won't think about that, we'll just think about some abstraction and call it a day". And as I understand it, sales of this stuff like the Tekken 8 avatar lobby are much lower than they expected - but where the hell did these expectations come from? They never even asked about the topic in the polls or smthg lol (FTGJ strive did, but AFTER catastrophe)
I think Harada since deleted the Tweet. It seems Namco Bandai doesn't want to divulge how the sausage is made.
Hitting a point where we can only speculate but it makes me question if harada really is holding the reigns or not
@@doogies I think the fact that he's essentially the face of Tekken but has been not forthright or accurate with information on the business side and decisions makes him seem not trustworthy at worst and or not effective or aware at best. I'm kinda worried it'll do irreparable harm of our opinion and general perspective on Harada & Murray going forward.
Then there's the mods stuff, technical side of thing with bad patches, ineffective solutions to rage quitting, balance complaints, etc. Tifa would help hype things certainly but meeting the community part way on a few of these issues I'd hope could help save face.
They're dead wrong. Don't call it a year 1 PASS, if everything year 1 is not on the pass. Call it a character pass, or stage pass and sell it separately. Keeping the game alive with updates will make them more money in the long run.
No Mans Sky been giving away updates for 7 years and never asked for a penny. With the updates, people will buy the game full price. They gonna ruin a good thing.
I agree with that for sure. I didn't buy anything outside the pass and don't plan on it. Weird to sell a season pass that doesn't have everything in the season...
Stages are part of the actual gameplay in this game. If it was just an aesthetic background kind of thing like it is in SF it wouldn't have been seen as such an egregious thing. There's less pressure to buy shit in fucking Fornite, and that's free.
It's a good statement from Harada, I think he's handling the situation well, but there has to be noticeable improvements from this or else he'll lose credibility as well. In that sense, it's brave of him to always be willing to put himself out there as the face of Tekken, but we've seen from Phil Spencer that having good intentions and communication doesn't always translate to meaningful results.
Agreed. I gotta see somwthing
its interesting how they are dealing the problem. I really dont care to be honest because i havent bought the dlc but i like hearing peoples takes
The situation is bad imo and it's def weak to Sell a "season one pass" that doesn't even cover all the season one content
Easiest way to make sure this doesn't happen again, is to not buy the stage. Business people only listen to money. So if their business decision doesn't make the money they expect, they may be more inclined to change their business practices in the future.
Yeah. I don't buy the passes and won't buy the stage. Def come around to voting with my wallet
I haven't really played Tekken seriously since 3 (although I did buy 7 awhile back) but I'll see Harada's tweets every now and then and I think he's always been really good at addressing stuff within the community.
I'd LOVE to see Tifa in Tekken 8. Her fighting style just seems like it would work (especially after playing FFVII Remake.) I don't think Waffle House is gonna make it realistically lol but Seventh Heaven Bar in some form would work.
i'm just happy I can change the menu character
I'll be the petty bitch. It's okay if I get hate for this. For the gaming/graphics/tech side, will Harada apologize for saying "if you care about specs when playing tekken 8, buy it on console"? Or is that out of his hands too? Or publishing's fault? People were saying pc players were running toasters when we were playing on specs much higher then a ps5's. But we have to lower settings while ps5s got a better port because the team picks and chooses which platform Tekken will be built from the ground up for. PC with T7, ps5 with T8. No equal treatment it seems. It's still disrespectful that Harada was told to f off by publishing when they are one entity. Not surprising though, it's Bamco.
Personally I don't mind season passes for future content but the mtx feel extremely just, as you said, "feels wrong" in a full priced game.
I don't envy Haradas position, he's kind of in an in-between situation of creative and business and I think it's important for people to separate the (in my opinion justified) disdain for the business of bamco and Harada who is only a part of the company.
It really is a shame because the game is legitimately really good and it's been tarnished by how poor so many things have been handled.
Agreed!
$70 game minimum
Season Pass where they won't tell you who's coming or what you get in totality.
Constant microtransactions and reusing old content to get more money.
Barely touching the top 5 characters so it's always very similar top 8s.
All DLC have been stance bozos or shadows of their former selves.
Shitass netcode and poor handling of quitters/cheaters.
Paying money for the 1/16 chance or whatever to get a stage.
All DLC have been returning characters from the previous game, 1 of which was already DLC in that game.
Honestly I feel for the guys having to deal with all the Corpo shit but anybody trying to cover for them is also a clown frankly.
Don't disagree!
I guess they had already announced the story would be a free update since it was announced, but it would've made much more sense to have the story be paid and the stage be free. I guess they're banking on the idea that players playing the vs/online mode all the time have a bigger pool of people willing to pay for a stage.
At least the update seems to have been well received outside the stage controversy
@doogies yeah, it looks like it, and I'm glad. Lots of good QOL, Hei looks dope, and overall, listening to feedback and improving along the way.
Fuck Blue Protocol. All my homies hate Blue Protocol and the vast majority of F2P MMORPGs.
No idea what it even was but good lord if it pushed the successful projects to be doing stuff like this....crazy
Tekken 8 is behaving like a free to play game. I dont care if anyone says "Oh but they need to put content out, invest in the world tour", like, man, the game was not free, was not cheaper either
This is a big issue. Paid game with f2p structure. Commit to one
Its not really taking accountability if there is no remedial action behind it
Haven't touched the game since this news dropped. I don't want to support a product that feels so dishonest. At first there was no in-game store, then there was. No battle pass -- then there was. The stages are free until they aren't. It reeks of corporate greed. Can't wait to see what becomes of those loot boxes that aren't loot boxes -- until they are.
I think the stage being paid DLC is dumb as hell, but I feel like they could make up for this by making it free, and then giving those who already bought it the equivalent amount of Tekken coins. If they did that then this would be water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned.
I sympathize with Harada and the Tekken team wrt. the business side infecting decision making. It can't be easy to operate in that kind of environment, but at the end of the day as the customer I'm mostly concerned with what's good for me, and stages being paid DLC ain't it. You're absolutely right though about Harada's transparency being a rare blessing. Other games have had that and then lost it because their player communities kept flaming the devs whenever they said anything. There's a big difference between reasonable critique and angry bitching, and I've seen a lot of people in Tekken Reddit and Tekken Twitter who can't tell what that difference is, and sooner or later that's going to bite us all in the ass.
Tournament tax, not only is it a full console and $100 for a setup it’s now 4.99 added on
How many setups does a major have 200-400?
Never been to a major, that’s 5x200 that’s $1,000 per tournament
I see your point, but is it even a requirement for all stages to be included for a tournament when they have to play random anyway and they don't change the game THAT much as far as the community is concerned if we go off how they don't have stage bans (see platform fighters - I think they should though, both gimmicky stages that should be banned see T4 and also stages that cannot be repeated).
Just the way business is done now it seems. It doesn't matter how predatory the monetization gets. Fighting game players will bitch, then give them their money anyway, and wonder why it keeps happening. Its ok, NRS will do something egregious soon and this will be forgotten.
Lmao sad part is you are prob right
Yeah, stages not coming with the character pass does feel off, seeing as they were included in T7 and with Lidia.
Personally, I think it might be okay if characters and stages came together with a single pass, and then have cosmetics and other extra features be available as part of a "premium" pass or available separately. Sounds scummy, cuz it kinda is, but I personally only really play this game at locals. So I don't mind spending money on characters and stages to be able to have a complete tournament setup, but I would mind if they plan to continue splitting apart important content like this to try to squeeze every single penny they can without (seemingly) considering how it will go over with the audience as a whole.
And yeah, we are very lucky to have a person like Harada be the point of communication between BN and the community. I just hope there are enough people who understand and appreciate that game dev/marketing is not easy, and to not shoot the messenger when an update or whatever inevitably can't please everyone.
Agreed with a lot of this
I personally couldn't care less though I feel they should be included like in the past.
Only thing I get out of this drama is Harada still being so transparent with the community on Twitter of all places. I can't think of another single dev of a big company still putting up with this shit in theTwitter cesspool of terminally online people.
at this point i have to wonder, is tifa the "boomer" pick now?
Yes. Do I care? No
@@doogies theres no debating her status, i just get tired having to prove the kids wrong all the time.
I swear harada account is what ED account should be. But i swear i keep thinking his is a fan account.
"It's my responsibility to do this and that, but I'm low-key throwing the publishing team out of the bus because I'm on the dev side now. So it's not my fault Tekken 8 had this miscommunitcations even though I have Harada Bar and an hour length Tekken Talk. So I'll insert I apologize, and make content creators explain my side and make it look like I did a good response."
- Sincerley. Harada
That's a pretty bad faith interpretation
It's going to be very hard to defend a game currently costing $115 to have all of the gameplay features in it before 1 year is up. There's 25 year old animations in the game and they're charging like they made it all with tableside service. When the second season pass hits, Tekken 8 is going to cost just as much as ALL of Tekken 7 did with all of it's characters and stages if you bought it at launch. In addition, ALL of the DLC characters released so far were characters they had in Tekken 7. Never forget that Harada promised that Tekken would never charge for legacy characters.
I'm not attached to this issue in and of itself but I've said to my friends for a while now, tekken leans too much into the business oriented aspect. As much as it is a hardcore technical fighting game, it hasn't progressed beyond T5 mechanically speaking (imo) I played like 500 hours of T7 and when I picked up the demo for T8 it felt the same and I just wasn't interested. The new characters didn't appeal to me so I skipped it.
Harada comes across as a shrewd business man as well as a seasoned developer, there's a reason his first outing (T3) was the highest selling fighting game ever for many years after it came out and I'm sure that's why he gets so much creative freedom, probably because he does a good job of keeping the suits happy, but lets not forget when the 3f rollback discourse was happening, the half ass explanation he gave is "we want the game to look cinematic at all times and not jittery with characters teleporting everywhere" or something to that effect, sacrificing the optimal gameplay experience for a product that "looks nice". (Also let's not forget buy the frame data DLC)
I heard that the reason there's no tutorials in T7 is because Harada had focus test data showing people never used it, again this is a business oriented decision in the game design. I just think Tekken as a franchise has focused too heavily on being a marketable and sellable product rather than being a great fighting game, that's my issue with this franchise, sorry for the essay.
Hey man you feel how you feel, and fwiw I agree with some sentiments you shared
Got an opinion on thiagruppercut and what happened?
Unfortunately, I cannot comment 😓
But the tweet they put out today is a good look!
Liked the video in support of Tifa 😂
Normally I am against guest characters, usually not a fan except for the rare occassion (Lucy in GGST? Trash. Terry in SF6? I'd rather not, but makes sense). Tifa in Tekken 8 with the Waffle House stage though? That's a hall of fame all timer right there. Couldn't even be mad if I wanted to.
I stoped buying season pass for some time. For any game. For tekken and sf I usually buy all characters but I really not into most of the extras.
sf6 season pass not include stage too
Yeah but sf6 stages don't "matter" in the same way they do for tekken...
Bullshit he knew that the stages was for five dollars. He didn’t expect a backlash and now he had to put the apologies to put out the fire. I don’t believe him.
Maybe he had to pick between the stage or something else? Either way it sucks for sure
I don't blame Harada nor Tekken Project dudes for pulled up $5 brand new addon stage on the digi-storefront just to get itself and the game BBQ in the stake by fans and non-fans alike while fans and non-fans probably forgot about Season pass/Expansion Pass ONLY INCLUDED the addon characters of first year life-cycle, even tho its kinda ironic for Seaside Stage was added as a core part instead of as a paid addon as I found out
But hey, be glad for a while that new story mode was added as core part as well, unless if you dont give a flying frog about that either so any more rant?
I want to say upfront you make fair points and I appreciate you having the discussion. That being said..
This is corporate scumbaggery plain and simple. The Tekken director deserves the heat as well.
This follows a list of issues with this game. It seems the focus is on greed not gameplay.
Words are meaningless unless accompanied by actions. Without actions this is an insincere apology.
It is bad enough when the game balance is iffy. Where are other modes like team battle, time attack, survival, and treasure mode?
Adding Tifa Lockhart could add more female representation and potentially attract/bring back lapsed RPG fans perhaps? All might be forgiven if a Waffle house like stage comes free with Tifa 🤣🤣 🤣. She along with some other dlc characters could help:
Big Boss with a cross promotion for MGS: Delta could come with a stage that looks like the final field in MGS3 could be good. Think T5 Moonlight Wilderness stage with more flowers. (Please DO NOT be Dragunov 2.0)
Rock Howard to promote Garou: COTW and to be looking for his father Geese.
Yujiro "The Ogre" Hanma cause he wants to fight the strong. Make the Underground Arena a dlc stage, and Demon Back his heat activation.
Lastly, either Kiryu or Akira. I would prefer Kiryu because I think Akira might be too similar to Leo's playstyle, but Sega has stated no to Kiryu.
I am 10000% behind Tifa/WaffleHouse reparations for this transgresssion. Ehrgeiz was 25 years ago, we need her back.
That stage is badass, just kinda sucks it doesnt come with the ultimate editon .
Yeah ultimate Ed buyers kinda got hoed
This is what happens when you support the business model of buying characters. Since the FGC let's them get away with that, they'll sell you anything.
Rather than buying chars, the prob is with the model inconsistency. Paid game with f2p content rollout is no bueno
@@doogies agreed. Make the game F2P at that point
Now y’all know how it feels getting hit by his son in smash bros.
What....they been knowing for 25+ years
@@doogies it feels bad in smash bros trust.
It's felt bad for 25+ years dude. Stop trying to co op kazuya as a smash character lmao
@@doogies it was more of a joke. I’ll stop now on this channel my apologies.
They been knew for 25+ years bro 😅@plabcentral630
Tekken doesnt have any competitor so they can do whatever they want
I don't think that's true
If the stage has gimmicks or very unique dimensions, then it's worth complaining about. Otherwise don't buy it and make your opinion heard via your wallet more than just a Twitter shit post.
That being said Bamco set expectations with T7 & Lidia's stage and then let everyone down lol. They deserve some backlash.
If a pay-to-play game has a season pass or "Deluxe Edition" it ought to come with EVERYTHING released in that season of the game.
how many times would people forgive and forget :) ?
Ultimate edition doesnt deliver the content people expected to get. its a misuse of the word ultimate.
The erosion of trust began since tekken shop announced, im afraid there are more to come after this.
I 100% agree man. They def running low on goodwill
I did not buy the new stage, but I did buy the Mokujin avatar skin because I know the only hope of getting Mokujin ever again is spending cash on a fucking avatar skin.
Brother, I'm no fan of any corporation but thank god for Harada, what a man... I know he kinda suggest in the future story updates may be charged, but that at least makes a bit more sense.
Only thing I miss about twitter being out in Brasil are Harada long tweets, thanks for this one Obama
Welp, I guess it's time I buy sf6 season 2. Go back to my sf4 roots and stick to that game.
Bruh, I was thinking the same LMAO. Tifa is the only thing that would bring me back.
Hope you continue Scrub Busters with other classics