I prefer the published version of events, but Sam stabbing the wizard king with sting while saying "you first" is pretty baller. Tolkien had a plethora of great options, guy was genius
@@SamaritanPrime I feel like Rosie would have no idea who the witch king was, and wouldn’t care at all. Like the other hobbits. She would probably scold Sam for putting himself in danger.
8:32 "The Eye suddenly becomes like a beam of fire stabbing sheer and sharp out of the northern smoke". Fascinating! That almost sounds like the movie version of Sauron.
there is a reason they did it in the movies. The styling of the great red eye seeing all led them to take a litereal interpretation to get the idea across.
Bruh, I would handsomely pay if you did the entire book series audiobook style. Even get a small cast to help you voice act it. You definitely have the voice for it.
You should listen to Phil Dragash’s audiobook soundscape, he does all the voices perfectly and adds in the music and sound effects. It’s an absolute masterpiece and feels like you’re in the books
@@WalkSkyWalkerI'm gonna try to Google what you said here, see if I can find what you are talking about, but in case nothing comes up, would you tell me what I should do to find this?
I mainly notice how many of these elements possibly made their way into the films. The Witch-King being stronger than Gandalf, and many quotes and conversations. Sam stabbing the orc from behind, could that be inspired by these notes?
I always liked the book version of the meeting between Gandalf and the Witch king better than Jackson's interpretation. With Jackson its more or less a random encounter while in the book the Witch King enters Minas Tirith through it's broken gate and encounters Gandalf in the square behind the gate. They eye each other and then the Rohirrim spoil the whole stuff. Much more epic
@@istari0Doesn't mean that if the rights weren't sold the producers didn't look to it. For example, Saruman's portrayal in the film echoes that of the early drafts in The Treason of Isengard, The Council of Elrond (1): "And the vale that was once fair was filled with wolves and orcs, for Saruman was there mustering a great force for the service of his new master." Sure, even in later versions Saruman is "an ally or servant of Sauron" (UT, The Istari), but his true goal is to claim the Ring for himself and Gandalf accuses Saruman of this: "you have cheated your new master" (The Two Towers, The Voice of Saruman). Whereas the early drafts had Saruman merely as Sauron's servant, much like in the films. Even Saruman's army is for his new master, which brings to mind Sauron commanding his vassal in the films to "Build [him] an army worthy of Mordor" (TLotR: The Fellowship of the Ring) It wasn't until the later versions of the Departure of Boromir that Tolkien implied that Saruman wanted to betray his new master as well and was feigning allegiance: "Whether he is merely working under the command of Mordor, or playing some hand of his own I cannot guess."
Tolkien also considered other catch phrases for Sam to say before slaying the Wizard King including: "I'll have what he's having"; "Yippee Ki Yay, King of Wizards!"; and "You're all clear Mr. Frodo, let's destroy this ring and go home"
The main problem with this Wizard-King incarnation is the same problem with the cut "Final Battle with Sauron" initially planned for the movies- Sauron is not supposed to be fought directly. Having the Witch-King in this final scene undermines the idea that the ring is the true enemy- it gives the characters something physical to fight, drawing attention away from what the whole story up to that point had been about. Placing a powerful servant of Sauron, who is in essence just a metaphor for Sauron himself, destroys the integrity of Sauron as the villan to be feared, but never seen. Tolkien, much like Jackson, showed immesurable restraint by not including their respective final scenes.
If I remember correctly, Tolkien changed it to Witch King when he changed the origins of the character because he didn't want people to think the Wizard King was still originally a Maia.
@@istari0it's slightly deeper than that, imo. Sure that may be A reason, but think about how inspired Tolkien was by folklore. In most folklore, wizards are advisors (such as Merlin), which is why the Maiar took the forms and names they did. Witches, however, are people who gain magic through pacts with dark forces, specifically, Lucifer and fallen angels...which describes Sauron perfectly. And the Witch Kind DID form a pact (of a sort, at least, once he took one of the Nine) with Sauron for power.
Your voice acting is soooo good! I’m sure this has been said to you many times but I regularly forget that you are the one voicing these characters. You are in my top 5 UA-cam channels. Thank you for what you do.
🎉Congratulations!!🎉 Congratulations on this being your 500th video on the channel. That's a lot of quality work you've put out. Thought I'd mention it ...
0:49 I once started reading the History of Middle Earth but gave up very rapidly because it like scholar paper rather than a smooth story. Respect to all who made it through all 12 books
That sounds like "The Hyborian Age" by Robert E Howard. A 21 page contextualization of what Conan's world is that is easily the densest material of any of his Conan stories. I understand that 12 books is much more than 21 pages in the grand scheme of things, but fascinating that two writers in the same relative genre who were relative contemporaries (in that they were alive and publishing at the same time) both created works that were miles denser and much harder to read than the material they are known for in the mainstream.
@@owen-trombone If you like Conan stories, it is because it really shows the level of thought that Howard put into the world building part of his Conan stories. I haven't really read Howard's other characters (Kull the Conqueror, etc) so might be a convention of his, but I don't know. Because Howard wrote (a lot of) short stories instead of novels, he didn't really repeat a lot of the same ideas/people in a lot of the stories with the exception of the title character. For example, you read about Picts in the Hyborian Age but they are in one or two stories. When they do show up, he makes up for the lack of quantity with the quality of the work. Howard's writing on Conan stories has always kinda blown my mind with how creative and ruthless he was and the way he energized the stories. He was also very good at making you want to see story elements repeat more often but never really gave it, which I view in a positive light. He never even really told the story of how Conan became King of Aquilonia. It's literally sentence in one of the stories, I think The Phoenix and the Sword IIRC. Could he have gotten around to it had he not---you know....? Maybe but I kind doubt it.
The Witch King being a corrupted Istari would had been difficult from a narrative pov. It does happen like what happened to Saruman. The question is whether a corrupted Maia would had willingly followed Sauron. It would had been likely they would had been frenemies. Each would had been trying to undermine each other. What method would had Sauron use to keep the Witch King on a leash? Both of them would had been looking for the ring for their own use. Keeping the Witch King a fallen human and giving the fallen Istari role to Saruman made for more better narrative.
Sauron is still among the strongest of the Maiar, and Wizard King would have been a heavily weakened Maiar just like the other Ishtari. But ultimately, the Ring of Power would have probably robbed him of his free will so it doesn't matter.
Maybe a human COULD become a wizard? Maybe the 5 tried to teach others at some point and that went awry. With Numenor, maybe the Valar tried the wizard-thing there, too, even before sending the 5 but with not so great results AND/OR maybe if a human wizard who turns evil on that isle, they thought better have some good wizards in the third age ready to go?
Agreed. I also see a more basic and fundamental problem with this narrative. He is one of the Nine. By definition he has to be a man. I suppose one can point to how the Istari are Maia in the form of men who are meant to feel the fears of men. But that is stretching things by a lot. And it is unnecessary. Having the Witch King as a powerful Numenorian works fine. After all Numenorians are descended in small part from a Maia (Melian).
I'm so glad I found this Lotr/Tolkien channel! The way you talk about the lore and all of the characters is so fascinating! I know it's all just pure fiction, but it still feels so real at the same time. I really hope you still have a lot of stuff to talk about in the future! Also your voice is so pleasing to the ear. Greetings from a German viewer. 💚
The Wizard-King, most powerful among the 9, quickly corrupted by his ring & first to die. I imagine his wraith coming like the reaper to claim the remaining 8 mortal men doomed to die. We need a fanfic community damn
This gives me some background on where Cory Olsen has some of his ideas that the Dark Wizard in season two of the Rings of Power could eventually become the Witch King in that story.
Matt, I absolutely LOVE your work. I would be overjoyed if you did an audio book of the trilogy with your voice. I think you should be the definitive voice of Tolkien's work, personally, and I would buy those versions without hesitation! Keep being amazing!
I see everyone saying they like how it ended out in the final version (i dont any of us would change what Tolkien decided) but honestly that ending makes me love Sam-Wise even more than i already did. Sam was a gardner, in a war. Where its always told its better to be a warrior, in a garden.
There are definitely parts of this I do like; I often complain about "where did these nine 'great men' hail from? What lands, or nations, that are not so far to the east, or south, ascto be beyond our reckoning, have tales of mem who lingered on, long after they should have faded, and then did fade, but did not die?", so the idea that at least some might've been from Sauron's actual time upon Numenor, and basically grabbed up to support his schemes, is really cool, as is the idea that Gandalf actively refers to other Wizards, as if they exist in the world, and aren't necessarily all enmantled Maia, numbering less than half a dozen. It is also nice to get more references to Radagast, as he is yet another character that Tolkien seemed to take a fair amount of effort to create, AMF introduce, but then basically do nothing with; he's referenced twice, and never seen, and then doesn't even act in the appendices, like Erebor, Dale, the elves, and the leaders of these places. I know it's just me complaining, but I like some of these extra bits. I still prefer our Witch King; his history, and his fate, but even such an emaciated character could have benefited from a little more meat on his bones.😊 This is totally unrelated, but if it gets me a redirect to another video, I consider that a win, so in Tolkien's world, how was the world INTENDED to work? As it exists, it seems mostly ideal for Men; everything moves at about the right speed, if you will, but it's not as great for the Elves. The thing is, the Elves weren't INTENDED to live in Valinor, and only got the opportunity because the Valar wanted to protect them from Morgoth, and his tainting of the world had consequences. Still, HE couldn't change how Elves, or Men, worked, inherently; at best, he forged Orcs out of one of them, likely, but Elves were Elves as Illuvatar intended, and so were Men, so if they both woke up in the same world, and were both intended to dwell within it, how was that ever going to work? Say Men are actually preferred all you want, but most would agree that the Elves appear to be Illuvatar's favored children, whom the world seemed made for, and whom were offered protection against Morgoth Men never were, so if the damaged, hand-me-down Middle Earth worked so well for Men, but Elves kind of needed to go elsewhere, if Morgoth hadn't been the worst, did Tolkien ever explain how THAT world might have worked?
It would have required a significant change to the storyline to have Sauron recruiting potential Nazgûl while in Númenor as in the published timeline Sauron didn't arrive in Númenor until centuries later. The Elves were originally intended to live in Middle-Earth for a time and serve as mentors to Men when the latter awoke. Then the Elves would move on. So, I think it is more accurate to say the Elves were intended to live in Valinor but not as soon as they did.
This was fascinating! Now I have to read The Return of the Shadow.🤓 Also, I would love to see a video covering the Mereth Aderthad in light of Thanksgiving coming up.😂
I'm so pleased that you explored the versions of 'The Wizard King' found in the Histories. Perhaps Tolkien couldn't find a plausible way to place a fallen Maiar alongside Sauron in Numenor (one of Gandalf's 'Order') without introducing a whole reconsideration of the Ishtar. At any rate, the Histories are rather exhaustive but fascinating. Though we all love the final canonical results the Histories provide depth to Tolkien's prodigious creative process. Ha! You've really earned the title 'Nerd of the Rings' with this one, and that's meant in the most appreciative way possible.
As a fellow writer, I think we may know where he’s from (In the story) if we knew his actual name. We know his title, not his name. I love the fact that Tolkien left it as a mystery, I love that, however, I do think the only one to know his name and where he’s from was Tolkien, nobody else.
Theoden being saved, but Eowyn slayed, is reminiscent of death of the Goth Shield Maiden Hervor fighting her Hunnish Half-Bother Hlod in the Norse “Saga of Hervör and Heidrek” (can highly recommend the paintings by Peter Arbo of that Saga!), while Theorem’s death is more reminiscent of the death of King Theodoric of the Visigoth as an ally of the Western Roman Empire against Attila the Hun at the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains!
I love the variations of Tolkiens novels I love the servant of Morgoth before Sauron was Telvildo the prince of cats I would love to see a video on him he unfortunately has very little on him but I like to think the professor left much to interpret on the charachi seeing as how he wasn't much used and most likely eventually became Carcaroth
@nerd of the rings, could you make a video about the idea of how the story would have continued if saruman had remained good and not fallen to evil? that would be really interesting :)
@NerdoftheRings what a brilliant video topic!! So is this the "Dark Wizard" in the Rings of Power? The show has already laid the ground work for that line you quoted around Gandalf recounting him to be of His Order and one fallen deep into Evil 👀
Me watching the Nazgul smashed by a rock in Return of the King: 😂 Me watching the Nazgul smashed by a rock in Return of the King after playing Shadow of War: 😢
The ring show will depict this so well I believe, I'm so excited honestly the show is amazing❤ Poppy's Walking Song with Gandalf looking to the stars feels more Tolkien then people want to believe. This Channel!! plus the show season 1 and 2 + LOTR trilogy + the Hobbit trilogy + Canon Source material and notes feelinh so Great, what a time!
I really enjoyed the look we get at Tolkien's writing process too. The Witch King being the Wizard King is an interesting take, especially since both characters work well for their parts of the story. I get the feeling...that many characters underwent changes like this, and that many of those changes result in their addition/subtraction from the story in key parts. I mean here we have an example of a fallen Istari, an idea that's pretty solid considering Saruman went this route... Then we also have characters like the Blue Wizards, who arrived went east and were never heard from again. There's also at least 5 ring wraiths we have no idea who they are, what they were about, or where they came from. Could 2 of them be the other missing Istari? No...because the 9 were always supposed to be men, which is why the idea of the Wizard King probably got re written. The Istari are not men, and it wouldn't make sense to have the writing changed to say the 8 men and one Istari doomed to die...lol. It also doesn't really make sense for him to survive Pelinor Feilds, just to get stabbed by Samwise at Mount Doom...and the actual account of him being slayed by a hobbit and Eoywn to save her father made for a much better "end" for the character. Still...the idea that the Witch King was originally supposed to be a fallen Istari from Numenor does add mystique to the character. If one is to be a Lord of a faction like the Nazgul...who are pretty indistinguishable from one another, then there did need to be an in universe explanation as to why he's the most powerful and some idea of his exploits. Sometimes in writing those details, less is more. Like we didn't need backstories for each of the wraiths...and indeed fleshing that out would of been alot more work, for ultimately the same result story wise, while also losing alot of the "unknown" aspect of their character. We don't know the extent of their power...all we knew was not to ever face them, run at the sight of them, and that their leader was someone who literally couldn't be beaten outright. Aside from that, we also knew they knew about Frodo, the rings, who they were traveling with, where they were probably going, and who all would possibly become involved should any of that knowledge become known. It's like, when it comes down to it Gandalf is the strongest character on the "good side" and if even he says, yeah I got many things but this dude isn't one of them....that's cause for alarm. Not many things bother Gandalf, so if one of them shows up an tries to kill you, it's a pretty big deal lol.
I have to assume that in the draft this is taken from, Gandalf was also a human, and that him being a Maiar wasn't a thing until Lord of the Rings was integrated into the Legendarium. And that's why even Gandalf is afraid of the Wizard King.
The Witch-king was given the "sorcerer" quality by Sauron's initiation. Just as his teaching gave Celebrimbor the ability to make the rings of power. It is not correct to consider the Witch-king as an "Istar" (a Maia) in this draft. The factor (the rings of power) that prevents the Elves from fading makes people fade. The transformation into the ring-wraith is actually the fading of people over time through the rings of power. An artificial derivative of the fading phenomenon seen naturally in Elves, created in people through the rings of power. A kind of side effect. Therefore, it was right for Tolkien to change this on this metaphysical basis. However, the dynamics and interactions of a Nazgûl in Númenor interacting with the cult of Melkor would be interesting.
WAIT! So you know I’ve been hounding you for a “What If Sam Kept The Ring?” video for a long while, Matt. How about working in the “What If The Witch King Survived The Battle of Pelennor Fields?” angle and merging those two what-ifs together with Sam and Gollum facing off against the terrifying Black Rider at Mount Doom? 😁🙏😁 Anyway, your “What If…” videos are some of my faves, and it has been too long! We are quite ready for another adventure. ⛵️
it's terrifying to think of an istari corrupted and enslaved/subjugated by effectively a maia peer. saruman may have fallen but he was still very well aware and in control. he could still make a choice. a wizard king rather than a witch king would work to elevate sauron to an entirely greater level of power. at the same time, another notch in Samwise the Brave's belt sounds pretty good too.
1:06 Hang on a second. When reading the book, and then imitating Gandalf's voice during his quotes, but then encountering a quote-within-a-quote he's making of Radagast,... if you then read THAT in an impression of Radagast's voice, does that mean Gandalf is ALSO imitating his voice too?? 🤔🤣🤣
Based on this I guess the witch king will be either the Dark wizard in Rhun or Pharazon in Numenor in RoP. I had difficulties finding good candidates for that role.
In your expert opinion how would JRR Tolkien feel about stories like Fullmetal Alchemist or (most importantly) Violet Evergarden? This is a question that's been bothering me for some time, and for me there's no one better who I would've wanted to ask. Granted I don't know if you have seen either of these shows; or if you know about them, so it's okay if you don't know how to answer this question. Also I find your video about the Wizard Kng and Tolkien's early writings to be deeply fascinating. Of course I've always loved watching your videos and listening to what you have to say. The idea that Sam could've been the one to kill the Wizard King is especially epic!
Oh man, at the beginning, you said no man "can kill" instead of "will kill." Huge difference! The movies mix this up as well, always regretted that. The prophecy is one of destiny and a prediction of what will happen, not what is possible or not possible.
Please forgive my ignorance but I'm confused. When Matt says that Gandalf explains the Witch King is "one of his order" who became corrupted, is he saying that SIX Maiar wizards were sent to Middle Earth and not just the 5 we're familiar with? Perhaps he was sent at an different time? To rule Numenor? That would make sense at least in the movie version when the Witch King shattered Gandalf the White's staff. So much interesting stuff to consider. Thanks for the video!
My theory is the Wizards were meant to be mortal men, even Gandalf, when _The Lord of the Rings_ was first being written, back when it was a mere sequel to _The Hobbit_ Them being Maiar came later according to this theory.
Listening to this gives me a idea not sure if it works out or not. But gandalf saying he is one of us. Could he be then one of the blue wizards then? Just curious what you all think. The blue always intrigued me and lack of story about what happened to them i find puzzling.
I prefer to think the Wizard King would have been a proto-istari sent to help mitigate the shadow over Numenor situation or a Maia traversing beyond Aman like Melian. In both scenarios, they ultimately just got tricked or caught up into one of Sauron's schemes (due to a lust for power or thinking they could use the ring for good). Perhaps this is what would have happened to Saruman if he went against Sauron directly. I think the blue wizards are so interesting and enigmatic in their own right that they warrant a fully fleshed out plot dedicated to them.
@Sol-Amar yes a plot dedicated to them would be nice. Almost seems like that was the idea at first but never did it. Seems we know so much about the others.
A "wizard" is a "wise one", and a "philosopher" is a "lover of wisdom". A close similarity. Thus a "wizard king" is similar to a "philosopher king". I choose to read in this a warning against Plato's ideal ruler.
Plato or ∞Ploutos the Greek Spirit of Iasiôn (Iasiôn→Ash in Tolkien Legendarium). Iasiôn the One who was proposed to "heal" Middle-earth for Sauron. Ash is Black Speech for One in the Ring Inscription, as he is the First of the Nazgul. What is Pluto's connection to Numenor? Well isn't he the one who told the great tale of Atlantis? He did choose ∞Sophia (Wisdom) as his overlord, and this can be understood to be Sā (or Sauron→Zeus-Ares) in Tolkien Legendarium. Wisdom is a funny word. As it is a rendering of Wise-Doom or Wise-Domination. Using knowledge in means to dominate others. This was Sauron's downfall. For knowledge is shared as found in the name of Olorin (Lore) and Mithrandir (Myth) as opposed to being dominated over others.
this implies that Galadrial had foresight enough to give Sam rope rather than a blade, lest he face the wizard king and have killed anything before hand.
So there were 6 wizards and not 5 that is commonly known. That also means that in ROP season 2 the “bad wizard” can be the wizard king mentioned in this video?
Even in these older drafts, I don’t think the Wizard King was a higher being like Gandalf. The 9 rings were still given to men, if my memory serves. So maybe the “Order” Gandalf refers to is more like the later White Council, *OR* this was closer to the hobbit story where the Wizards don’t quite seem to be non-human entirely.
Well, even if the older prophecy Tolkein had previously stated before the finalization of The Return of the King release, One Young and Galant can still be true about Merry and Eowyn killing The Witchking. Regardless of how you spin the two prophecies in question, they are One (1) Young and (One, 1) Galant. Eowyn being pure and galant in her love for her king, making an ultimate sacrifice stood before The Witchking. Merry and Eowyn are infact NOT 'Man', as is said in Glorfindel's prophecy. In the books it says that Merry's 'Magic' dagger broke the spell for Eowyn to finish the kill. Whether it is "No man can kill him" or "He will only be fell by one young and galant". Furthermore for the concern, it is incredibly humane for such prophecies to alter and change over centuries, different languages, conflicting propaganda and perhaps Glorfindel did mean One Young and Galant, but over decades and centuries it changed from an enormous game of elven-telephone to be "No man can kill him". Whether that was The Professor's intention or not, I think it is all incredible prophetic writing any way that you want to look at
Didn’t Tolkien originally have the wizards as men before settling on them being Maiar? In that case, saying that he was one of his own order “from Numenor” wouldn’t mean that he was a Maia sent to Numenor while it stood, but merely that he was a Black Numenorean.
I think that Witch-King being called the "greatest of all the wizards of Men" and a member of Gandalf's order at that point in Tolkien's draft doesn't mean he was meant to be an Istar, but the other way around: a) either the Professor hadn't come with the concept of the Istari by then and both Gandalf and Witch-King were Men (after all, back in "The Hobbit" Gandalf says Radagast is his cousin - now we interpret it figuratively, but when Tolkien wrote the book it wasn't connected to the Legendarium yet and Gandalf almost surely wasn't imagined as an angelic emissary) b) or he decided already that Gandalf was a Maia but "wizard" was still a generic term for magic practicioners regardless of race (thus "the wizards of Men" line), and the "Order" referred to the White Council (from "The Hobbit": "Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic" - so Elrond, Cirdan, and Galadriel would also be counted as "wizards", as in "wise ones")
I'd like to see the LOTR story redone to include whatever was left out but good enough to include. but should do little to contradict itself. some irregularities ok but to much would be a no go.
Even without any backstory just the name The Witch King of Angmar is so evocative for the reader, and just a bad-ass name
It really is a top Tier name, You get shivers even before You know his brutal stories
And the way Ian McKellen says it in the ROTK film is even more awesome lol
I prefer the published version of events, but Sam stabbing the wizard king with sting while saying "you first" is pretty baller. Tolkien had a plethora of great options, guy was genius
"You first... did you see that, Mr Frodo? I just had my first kill!"
I wonder if “not if I gut you first” came from that 🤔
Man, imagine Samwise Gamgee rolling back into town from his journey and wooing Rosie Cotton.
Sam: “So… I killed the Witch King of Angmar.”
Rosie: 😍
Sam killing the witch king is the cheesiest thing I've ever heard.
@@SamaritanPrime I feel like Rosie would have no idea who the witch king was, and wouldn’t care at all. Like the other hobbits. She would probably scold Sam for putting himself in danger.
8:32 "The Eye suddenly becomes like a beam of fire stabbing sheer and sharp out of the northern smoke". Fascinating! That almost sounds like the movie version of Sauron.
there is a reason they did it in the movies. The styling of the great red eye seeing all led them to take a litereal interpretation to get the idea across.
I loved the artwork of J. R. R. and Christopher, very beautiful.
Bruh, I would handsomely pay if you did the entire book series audiobook style. Even get a small cast to help you voice act it. You definitely have the voice for it.
You should listen to Phil Dragash’s audiobook soundscape, he does all the voices perfectly and adds in the music and sound effects. It’s an absolute masterpiece and feels like you’re in the books
@@WalkSkyWalkerI'm gonna try to Google what you said here, see if I can find what you are talking about, but in case nothing comes up, would you tell me what I should do to find this?
Oh yes he does. I want this now and I would listen to every minute. No doubt it would be a hit series, too
@@robertwolfgan look up “Phil Dragash LOTR Internet Archive”
Andy serkis does hobbit, all the lotr, and silmarillion. I think maybe unfinished tales too
I mainly notice how many of these elements possibly made their way into the films. The Witch-King being stronger than Gandalf, and many quotes and conversations. Sam stabbing the orc from behind, could that be inspired by these notes?
For sure. Sam’s “Not if I stick you first” line has to be inspired by this earlier draft, right? Makes that great scene even cooler now.
Yes it seems so, and then consider the description of Sauron at 8:32, almost sounds like the movie Eye-version of Sauron
I always liked the book version of the meeting between Gandalf and the Witch king better than Jackson's interpretation. With Jackson its more or less a random encounter while in the book the Witch King enters Minas Tirith through it's broken gate and encounters Gandalf in the square behind the gate. They eye each other and then the Rohirrim spoil the whole stuff. Much more epic
I'm somewhat dubious about that. The Tolkien Estate has never sold the rights to any of the HoME books.
@@istari0Doesn't mean that if the rights weren't sold the producers didn't look to it. For example, Saruman's portrayal in the film echoes that of the early drafts in The Treason of Isengard, The Council of Elrond (1): "And the vale that was once fair was filled with wolves and orcs, for Saruman was there mustering a great force for the service of his new master." Sure, even in later versions Saruman is "an ally or servant of Sauron" (UT, The Istari), but his true goal is to claim the Ring for himself and Gandalf accuses Saruman of this: "you have cheated your new master" (The Two Towers, The Voice of Saruman). Whereas the early drafts had Saruman merely as Sauron's servant, much like in the films. Even Saruman's army is for his new master, which brings to mind Sauron commanding his vassal in the films to "Build [him] an army worthy of Mordor" (TLotR: The Fellowship of the Ring) It wasn't until the later versions of the Departure of Boromir that Tolkien implied that Saruman wanted to betray his new master as well and was feigning allegiance: "Whether he is merely working under the command of Mordor, or playing some hand of his own I cannot guess."
Tolkien also considered other catch phrases for Sam to say before slaying the Wizard King including: "I'll have what he's having"; "Yippee Ki Yay, King of Wizards!"; and "You're all clear Mr. Frodo, let's destroy this ring and go home"
😂😂😂😂😂😂
“Looks like wizard meat’s back on the menu, Mr Frodo”
“We’re getting too old for this, Mr. Frodo!”
😂😂😂
"I am the Wizard King... I can do anything!"
It’s a fine day when NotR uploads a video!
The main problem with this Wizard-King incarnation is the same problem with the cut "Final Battle with Sauron" initially planned for the movies- Sauron is not supposed to be fought directly. Having the Witch-King in this final scene undermines the idea that the ring is the true enemy- it gives the characters something physical to fight, drawing attention away from what the whole story up to that point had been about. Placing a powerful servant of Sauron, who is in essence just a metaphor for Sauron himself, destroys the integrity of Sauron as the villan to be feared, but never seen.
Tolkien, much like Jackson, showed immesurable restraint by not including their respective final scenes.
An interesting thought, but could he at least keep the exploding Palantir in this? :D I'm not an expert in restraint though.
I was the 70th like to this then I removed it. Implore you all to do the same.
I am glad his name was changed. "The Witch King" has a much better ring than "The Wizard King".
Hehe… ring…
Asta wants to know your location
If I remember correctly, Tolkien changed it to Witch King when he changed the origins of the character because he didn't want people to think the Wizard King was still originally a Maia.
"You're a wizard, Angy."
@@istari0it's slightly deeper than that, imo. Sure that may be A reason, but think about how inspired Tolkien was by folklore. In most folklore, wizards are advisors (such as Merlin), which is why the Maiar took the forms and names they did. Witches, however, are people who gain magic through pacts with dark forces, specifically, Lucifer and fallen angels...which describes Sauron perfectly. And the Witch Kind DID form a pact (of a sort, at least, once he took one of the Nine) with Sauron for power.
Your voice acting is soooo good!
I’m sure this has been said to you many times but I regularly forget that you are the one voicing these characters.
You are in my top 5 UA-cam channels.
Thank you for what you do.
Thanks so much! 😊
🎉Congratulations!!🎉 Congratulations on this being your 500th video on the channel. That's a lot of quality work you've put out. Thought I'd mention it ...
It always comes back to Sam the GOAT. Tolkien had to nerf the gallant hobbit so he didn't eclipse all other characters.
The 1 ring doesn't power-up Sam, it keeps him in check
@@Sazabi4prezI believe it does empower Sam. He begins to see himself as samwise the strong.
Really great job on this one, Matt!
0:49 I once started reading the History of Middle Earth but gave up very rapidly because it like scholar paper rather than a smooth story. Respect to all who made it through all 12 books
Same! I’m glad they exist and that people love them but they are not for me.
That sounds like "The Hyborian Age" by Robert E Howard. A 21 page contextualization of what Conan's world is that is easily the densest material of any of his Conan stories. I understand that 12 books is much more than 21 pages in the grand scheme of things, but fascinating that two writers in the same relative genre who were relative contemporaries (in that they were alive and publishing at the same time) both created works that were miles denser and much harder to read than the material they are known for in the mainstream.
@ is it worth reading?
@@GutsBatman that‘s indeed an interesting fact. Did not know. Thanks.
@@owen-trombone If you like Conan stories, it is because it really shows the level of thought that Howard put into the world building part of his Conan stories. I haven't really read Howard's other characters (Kull the Conqueror, etc) so might be a convention of his, but I don't know.
Because Howard wrote (a lot of) short stories instead of novels, he didn't really repeat a lot of the same ideas/people in a lot of the stories with the exception of the title character. For example, you read about Picts in the Hyborian Age but they are in one or two stories. When they do show up, he makes up for the lack of quantity with the quality of the work.
Howard's writing on Conan stories has always kinda blown my mind with how creative and ruthless he was and the way he energized the stories. He was also very good at making you want to see story elements repeat more often but never really gave it, which I view in a positive light. He never even really told the story of how Conan became King of Aquilonia. It's literally sentence in one of the stories, I think The Phoenix and the Sword IIRC. Could he have gotten around to it had he not---you know....? Maybe but I kind doubt it.
Of all the videos you have done, this one was the most intriguing. Well done,bravo.
Its fascinating to learn how many variations on the story Tolkien had throughout his life. Even he had contradictory ideas as time progressed.
Good god, all of token work from rough draft to final are all awesome and intriguing.
@nerd of the rings, could you make a video about the two fortresses of utumno and angband of morgoth? That would be really exciting :)
The Witch King being a corrupted Istari would had been difficult from a narrative pov. It does happen like what happened to Saruman. The question is whether a corrupted Maia would had willingly followed Sauron. It would had been likely they would had been frenemies. Each would had been trying to undermine each other. What method would had Sauron use to keep the Witch King on a leash? Both of them would had been looking for the ring for their own use. Keeping the Witch King a fallen human and giving the fallen Istari role to Saruman made for more better narrative.
Sauron is still among the strongest of the Maiar, and Wizard King would have been a heavily weakened Maiar just like the other Ishtari.
But ultimately, the Ring of Power would have probably robbed him of his free will so it doesn't matter.
Maybe a human COULD become a wizard? Maybe the 5 tried to teach others at some point and that went awry. With Numenor, maybe the Valar tried the wizard-thing there, too, even before sending the 5 but with not so great results AND/OR maybe if a human wizard who turns evil on that isle, they thought better have some good wizards in the third age ready to go?
Agreed. I also see a more basic and fundamental problem with this narrative. He is one of the Nine. By definition he has to be a man. I suppose one can point to how the Istari are Maia in the form of men who are meant to feel the fears of men. But that is stretching things by a lot. And it is unnecessary. Having the Witch King as a powerful Numenorian works fine. After all Numenorians are descended in small part from a Maia (Melian).
I'm so glad I found this Lotr/Tolkien channel! The way you talk about the lore and all of the characters is so fascinating! I know it's all just pure fiction, but it still feels so real at the same time. I really hope you still have a lot of stuff to talk about in the future! Also your voice is so pleasing to the ear. Greetings from a German viewer. 💚
The Wizard-King, most powerful among the 9, quickly corrupted by his ring & first to die. I imagine his wraith coming like the reaper to claim the remaining 8 mortal men doomed to die. We need a fanfic community damn
I never get tired of these videos ❤
Your accent work is impeccable
That was an awesome story Nerd. Thank you again for piecing it all together. Have you ever done Fangorn Forest?
I really like the illustrations used in this video :)
All the best, from Holland
10/10 video as per usual for Nerd of the Rings 👏🙌
Love these fascinating alternate lore dives!
Or how about “What if Debbie found The One Ring?”
Game....over.
Thank you for your truly fantastic channel.
Is it possible to put your channel on to Spotify like the podcast?
Many thanks 😊
From the Shameless season?
Excellent video showing different aspects between the books and the movies very interesting some beautiful content
This gives me some background on where Cory Olsen has some of his ideas that the Dark Wizard in season two of the Rings of Power could eventually become the Witch King in that story.
2:04 I'm pretty sure Gandalf fought all Nine of the Ringwraiths at Weathertop, but was in the ensuing events pursued by four or five of them
That's what I remember as well. Then the next day Gandalf tried to lure them away but only some followed him.
Matt, I absolutely LOVE your work. I would be overjoyed if you did an audio book of the trilogy with your voice. I think you should be the definitive voice of Tolkien's work, personally, and I would buy those versions without hesitation! Keep being amazing!
Simple and short. Great video.
I see everyone saying they like how it ended out in the final version (i dont any of us would change what Tolkien decided) but honestly that ending makes me love Sam-Wise even more than i already did. Sam was a gardner, in a war. Where its always told its better to be a warrior, in a garden.
There are definitely parts of this I do like; I often complain about "where did these nine 'great men' hail from? What lands, or nations, that are not so far to the east, or south, ascto be beyond our reckoning, have tales of mem who lingered on, long after they should have faded, and then did fade, but did not die?", so the idea that at least some might've been from Sauron's actual time upon Numenor, and basically grabbed up to support his schemes, is really cool, as is the idea that Gandalf actively refers to other Wizards, as if they exist in the world, and aren't necessarily all enmantled Maia, numbering less than half a dozen. It is also nice to get more references to Radagast, as he is yet another character that Tolkien seemed to take a fair amount of effort to create, AMF introduce, but then basically do nothing with; he's referenced twice, and never seen, and then doesn't even act in the appendices, like Erebor, Dale, the elves, and the leaders of these places. I know it's just me complaining, but I like some of these extra bits. I still prefer our Witch King; his history, and his fate, but even such an emaciated character could have benefited from a little more meat on his bones.😊
This is totally unrelated, but if it gets me a redirect to another video, I consider that a win, so in Tolkien's world, how was the world INTENDED to work? As it exists, it seems mostly ideal for Men; everything moves at about the right speed, if you will, but it's not as great for the Elves. The thing is, the Elves weren't INTENDED to live in Valinor, and only got the opportunity because the Valar wanted to protect them from Morgoth, and his tainting of the world had consequences. Still, HE couldn't change how Elves, or Men, worked, inherently; at best, he forged Orcs out of one of them, likely, but Elves were Elves as Illuvatar intended, and so were Men, so if they both woke up in the same world, and were both intended to dwell within it, how was that ever going to work? Say Men are actually preferred all you want, but most would agree that the Elves appear to be Illuvatar's favored children, whom the world seemed made for, and whom were offered protection against Morgoth Men never were, so if the damaged, hand-me-down Middle Earth worked so well for Men, but Elves kind of needed to go elsewhere, if Morgoth hadn't been the worst, did Tolkien ever explain how THAT world might have worked?
It would have required a significant change to the storyline to have Sauron recruiting potential Nazgûl while in Númenor as in the published timeline Sauron didn't arrive in Númenor until centuries later.
The Elves were originally intended to live in Middle-Earth for a time and serve as mentors to Men when the latter awoke. Then the Elves would move on. So, I think it is more accurate to say the Elves were intended to live in Valinor but not as soon as they did.
very interesting what if story. I really like the bit where Sam uses Sting on the leader of the Black riders
Every Saturday at noon I get the best notification on YT of the week 😊
This was fascinating! Now I have to read The Return of the Shadow.🤓
Also, I would love to see a video covering the Mereth Aderthad in light of Thanksgiving coming up.😂
I'm so pleased that you explored the versions of 'The Wizard King' found in the Histories. Perhaps Tolkien couldn't find a plausible way to place a fallen Maiar alongside Sauron in Numenor (one of Gandalf's 'Order') without introducing a whole reconsideration of the Ishtar. At any rate, the Histories are rather exhaustive but fascinating. Though we all love the final canonical results the Histories provide depth to Tolkien's prodigious creative process. Ha! You've really earned the title 'Nerd of the Rings' with this one, and that's meant in the most appreciative way possible.
I love how you're basically giving pointers to the ROP producers on what they can do with the coming seasons lol
If it’s a good idea, they will ignore it
As a fellow writer, I think we may know where he’s from (In the story) if we knew his actual name. We know his title, not his name. I love the fact that Tolkien left it as a mystery, I love that, however, I do think the only one to know his name and where he’s from was Tolkien, nobody else.
Theoden being saved, but Eowyn slayed, is reminiscent of death of the Goth Shield Maiden Hervor fighting her Hunnish Half-Bother Hlod in the Norse “Saga of Hervör and Heidrek” (can highly recommend the paintings by Peter Arbo of that Saga!), while Theorem’s death is more reminiscent of the death of King Theodoric of the Visigoth as an ally of the Western Roman Empire against Attila the Hun at the Battle of the Catalaunian Plains!
I love the variations of Tolkiens novels I love the servant of Morgoth before Sauron was Telvildo the prince of cats I would love to see a video on him he unfortunately has very little on him but I like to think the professor left much to interpret on the charachi seeing as how he wasn't much used and most likely eventually became Carcaroth
@nerd of the rings, could you make a video about the idea of how the story would have continued if saruman had remained good and not fallen to evil? that would be really interesting :)
Another UA-camr has done that 😊 ua-cam.com/video/m1vCi6-5xZA/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared
@NerdoftheRings what a brilliant video topic!! So is this the "Dark Wizard" in the Rings of Power?
The show has already laid the ground work for that line you quoted around Gandalf recounting him to be of His Order and one fallen deep into Evil 👀
Loved the video more people will have clues.
Could you do another video according to drafts video if there were Balrogs under Orodruin?
Thank God you back laddie. ❤
Cheers❤
"Then my heart failed for a moment."
It's ok, Gandalf. A pacemaker will fix that problem.
Me watching the Nazgul smashed by a rock in Return of the King: 😂
Me watching the Nazgul smashed by a rock in Return of the King after playing Shadow of War: 😢
Mee too
It's not canon.
Thanks, I didn't need my heart. 🥲💔
@@robynwilde You, okay?
@@aro_ger_ Who are they? nope indeed (Isildur & Helm)
The rest? Could be it
But saying Shadow of Mordor/War is canon is pure HERESY!
The ring show will depict this so well I believe, I'm so excited honestly the show is amazing❤ Poppy's Walking Song with Gandalf looking to the stars feels more Tolkien then people want to believe.
This Channel!! plus the show season 1 and 2 + LOTR trilogy + the Hobbit trilogy + Canon Source material and notes feelinh so Great, what a time!
Well, I guess everyone is free to hope, even if it is misguided and misplaced.
WOW!, You make my head explode!, but in a GOOD way! THANK YOU!!!
“Order! Order in the Wizard King's court!”
In the old ICE Merp Earth Roleplaying rpg from the 80's, he was Er-Mûrazôr, Prince of Númenor, son of Tar-Ciryatan, twelfth king of Númenor.
The Wizard King at 3:00 looks super awesome and terrifying.
A video on the dwarves of the east would be great!
I like the idea of Gollum repenting and sacrificing himself
Please do one on khamul
I really enjoyed the look we get at Tolkien's writing process too. The Witch King being the Wizard King is an interesting take, especially since both characters work well for their parts of the story. I get the feeling...that many characters underwent changes like this, and that many of those changes result in their addition/subtraction from the story in key parts. I mean here we have an example of a fallen Istari, an idea that's pretty solid considering Saruman went this route... Then we also have characters like the Blue Wizards, who arrived went east and were never heard from again. There's also at least 5 ring wraiths we have no idea who they are, what they were about, or where they came from. Could 2 of them be the other missing Istari? No...because the 9 were always supposed to be men, which is why the idea of the Wizard King probably got re written. The Istari are not men, and it wouldn't make sense to have the writing changed to say the 8 men and one Istari doomed to die...lol. It also doesn't really make sense for him to survive Pelinor Feilds, just to get stabbed by Samwise at Mount Doom...and the actual account of him being slayed by a hobbit and Eoywn to save her father made for a much better "end" for the character. Still...the idea that the Witch King was originally supposed to be a fallen Istari from Numenor does add mystique to the character. If one is to be a Lord of a faction like the Nazgul...who are pretty indistinguishable from one another, then there did need to be an in universe explanation as to why he's the most powerful and some idea of his exploits. Sometimes in writing those details, less is more. Like we didn't need backstories for each of the wraiths...and indeed fleshing that out would of been alot more work, for ultimately the same result story wise, while also losing alot of the "unknown" aspect of their character. We don't know the extent of their power...all we knew was not to ever face them, run at the sight of them, and that their leader was someone who literally couldn't be beaten outright. Aside from that, we also knew they knew about Frodo, the rings, who they were traveling with, where they were probably going, and who all would possibly become involved should any of that knowledge become known. It's like, when it comes down to it Gandalf is the strongest character on the "good side" and if even he says, yeah I got many things but this dude isn't one of them....that's cause for alarm. Not many things bother Gandalf, so if one of them shows up an tries to kill you, it's a pretty big deal lol.
I have to assume that in the draft this is taken from, Gandalf was also a human, and that him being a Maiar wasn't a thing until Lord of the Rings was integrated into the Legendarium.
And that's why even Gandalf is afraid of the Wizard King.
I think that the Wizard in the Desert in Rings of Power is the mortal version of the Witch King pre-ring of power.
could you do a video on Tauriel?
The Witch-king was given the "sorcerer" quality by Sauron's initiation. Just as his teaching gave Celebrimbor the ability to make the rings of power. It is not correct to consider the Witch-king as an "Istar" (a Maia) in this draft. The factor (the rings of power) that prevents the Elves from fading makes people fade. The transformation into the ring-wraith is actually the fading of people over time through the rings of power. An artificial derivative of the fading phenomenon seen naturally in Elves, created in people through the rings of power. A kind of side effect. Therefore, it was right for Tolkien to change this on this metaphysical basis. However, the dynamics and interactions of a Nazgûl in Númenor interacting with the cult of Melkor would be interesting.
WAIT! So you know I’ve been hounding you for a “What If Sam Kept The Ring?” video for a long while, Matt. How about working in the “What If The Witch King Survived The Battle of Pelennor Fields?” angle and merging those two what-ifs together with Sam and Gollum facing off against the terrifying Black Rider at Mount Doom? 😁🙏😁
Anyway, your “What If…” videos are some of my faves, and it has been too long! We are quite ready for another adventure. ⛵️
Doesn't he have a What if Sam kept the Ring video already?
@@dylandenton7576 Don’t think so?
where do you find your images you use? I'm trying to find that hovering gold crown one at 3:00
The Witch King of Angmar is one of the coldest titles of all time
- "No man can kill me"
- " I am no man, I am a hobbit ! Ahaha ! "
Good work boss 👏
it's terrifying to think of an istari corrupted and enslaved/subjugated by effectively a maia peer. saruman may have fallen but he was still very well aware and in control. he could still make a choice. a wizard king rather than a witch king would work to elevate sauron to an entirely greater level of power. at the same time, another notch in Samwise the Brave's belt sounds pretty good too.
I need that picture of the Eagle fighting the Nazgul.
1:06
Hang on a second.
When reading the book, and then imitating Gandalf's voice during his quotes, but then encountering a quote-within-a-quote he's making of Radagast,... if you then read THAT in an impression of Radagast's voice, does that mean Gandalf is ALSO imitating his voice too?? 🤔🤣🤣
Based on this I guess the witch king will be either the Dark wizard in Rhun or Pharazon in Numenor in RoP. I had difficulties finding good candidates for that role.
thank you patrons...esp. And Debbie
In your expert opinion how would JRR Tolkien feel about stories like Fullmetal Alchemist or (most importantly) Violet Evergarden? This is a question that's been bothering me for some time, and for me there's no one better who I would've wanted to ask. Granted I don't know if you have seen either of these shows; or if you know about them, so it's okay if you don't know how to answer this question.
Also I find your video about the Wizard Kng and Tolkien's early writings to be deeply fascinating. Of course I've always loved watching your videos and listening to what you have to say. The idea that Sam could've been the one to kill the Wizard King is especially epic!
The witch king and the nazgul hold some interesting history I'd like to know more of each of the nine
You just hit 500 videos!
I am the wizard King I can do anything. Oh wait a minute that's lizard King hahaha 😂
“Nine for mortal men, doomed to die” would need to change as well if the Witch King was a Maiar
Witch King sounds much more sinister. Wizard King just makes him sound good as well as put him on the same power level as the Istari
Oh man, at the beginning, you said no man "can kill" instead of "will kill." Huge difference! The movies mix this up as well, always regretted that. The prophecy is one of destiny and a prediction of what will happen, not what is possible or not possible.
Please forgive my ignorance but I'm confused. When Matt says that Gandalf explains the Witch King is "one of his order" who became corrupted, is he saying that SIX Maiar wizards were sent to Middle Earth and not just the 5 we're familiar with? Perhaps he was sent at an different time? To rule Numenor? That would make sense at least in the movie version when the Witch King shattered Gandalf the White's staff. So much interesting stuff to consider. Thanks for the video!
My theory is the Wizards were meant to be mortal men, even Gandalf, when _The Lord of the Rings_ was first being written, back when it was a mere sequel to _The Hobbit_
Them being Maiar came later according to this theory.
The Wizard King would have made an intriguing concept, as to what happened to one of the blue Wizards… …
Angmar must have been a hell of a place.
Listening to this gives me a idea not sure if it works out or not. But gandalf saying he is one of us. Could he be then one of the blue wizards then? Just curious what you all think. The blue always intrigued me and lack of story about what happened to them i find puzzling.
I prefer to think the Wizard King would have been a proto-istari sent to help mitigate the shadow over Numenor situation or a Maia traversing beyond Aman like Melian. In both scenarios, they ultimately just got tricked or caught up into one of Sauron's schemes (due to a lust for power or thinking they could use the ring for good). Perhaps this is what would have happened to Saruman if he went against Sauron directly. I think the blue wizards are so interesting and enigmatic in their own right that they warrant a fully fleshed out plot dedicated to them.
@Sol-Amar yes a plot dedicated to them would be nice. Almost seems like that was the idea at first but never did it. Seems we know so much about the others.
A "wizard" is a "wise one", and a "philosopher" is a "lover of wisdom". A close similarity. Thus a "wizard king" is similar to a "philosopher king". I choose to read in this a warning against Plato's ideal ruler.
No Marcus Aurelius for Middle-Earth then?
Plato or ∞Ploutos the Greek Spirit of Iasiôn (Iasiôn→Ash in Tolkien Legendarium). Iasiôn the One who was proposed to "heal" Middle-earth for Sauron. Ash is Black Speech for One in the Ring Inscription, as he is the First of the Nazgul.
What is Pluto's connection to Numenor? Well isn't he the one who told the great tale of Atlantis? He did choose ∞Sophia (Wisdom) as his overlord, and this can be understood to be Sā (or Sauron→Zeus-Ares) in Tolkien Legendarium.
Wisdom is a funny word. As it is a rendering of Wise-Doom or Wise-Domination. Using knowledge in means to dominate others. This was Sauron's downfall. For knowledge is shared as found in the name of Olorin (Lore) and Mithrandir (Myth) as opposed to being dominated over others.
this implies that Galadrial had foresight enough to give Sam rope rather than a blade, lest he face the wizard king and have killed anything before hand.
I like this version of the story much better
Witch King: "No man can kill me."
Eowyn: "will a woman do then?"
So there were 6 wizards and not 5 that is commonly known. That also means that in ROP season 2 the “bad wizard” can be the wizard king mentioned in this video?
Even in these older drafts, I don’t think the Wizard King was a higher being like Gandalf. The 9 rings were still given to men, if my memory serves. So maybe the “Order” Gandalf refers to is more like the later White Council, *OR* this was closer to the hobbit story where the Wizards don’t quite seem to be non-human entirely.
i just realised the metal band called gorgoroth is named after tolkiens work
Well, even if the older prophecy Tolkein had previously stated before the finalization of The Return of the King release, One Young and Galant can still be true about Merry and Eowyn killing The Witchking. Regardless of how you spin the two prophecies in question, they are One (1) Young and (One, 1) Galant. Eowyn being pure and galant in her love for her king, making an ultimate sacrifice stood before The Witchking. Merry and Eowyn are infact NOT 'Man', as is said in Glorfindel's prophecy. In the books it says that Merry's 'Magic' dagger broke the spell for Eowyn to finish the kill. Whether it is "No man can kill him" or "He will only be fell by one young and galant". Furthermore for the concern, it is incredibly humane for such prophecies to alter and change over centuries, different languages, conflicting propaganda and perhaps Glorfindel did mean One Young and Galant, but over decades and centuries it changed from an enormous game of elven-telephone to be "No man can kill him". Whether that was The Professor's intention or not, I think it is all incredible prophetic writing any way that you want to look at
Didn’t Tolkien originally have the wizards as men before settling on them being Maiar? In that case, saying that he was one of his own order “from Numenor” wouldn’t mean that he was a Maia sent to Numenor while it stood, but merely that he was a Black Numenorean.
ok so here could be an interesting one, given how close he was to having it among his treasures, what if Smaug had obtained the one ring from Bilbo.
I think it would have been more interesting if he had the history of the Wizard King while being slain on pelenor fields
I read somewhere that the Witch king was one of numenors king younger brother
I think that Witch-King being called the "greatest of all the wizards of Men" and a member of Gandalf's order at that point in Tolkien's draft doesn't mean he was meant to be an Istar, but the other way around:
a) either the Professor hadn't come with the concept of the Istari by then and both Gandalf and Witch-King were Men (after all, back in "The Hobbit" Gandalf says Radagast is his cousin - now we interpret it figuratively, but when Tolkien wrote the book it wasn't connected to the Legendarium yet and Gandalf almost surely wasn't imagined as an angelic emissary)
b) or he decided already that Gandalf was a Maia but "wizard" was still a generic term for magic practicioners regardless of race (thus "the wizards of Men" line), and the "Order" referred to the White Council (from "The Hobbit": "Gandalf had been to a great council of the white wizards, masters of lore and good magic" - so Elrond, Cirdan, and Galadriel would also be counted as "wizards", as in "wise ones")
The Nazgul of Angmar, the greatest black metal band of Middle earth.
I always thought the witch king was one of the blue wizards who fought against sauron and became a king but was betrayed by the ring given to men
I'd like to see the LOTR story redone to include whatever was left out but good enough to include. but should do little to contradict itself. some irregularities ok but to much would be a no go.