The problem with investment is people are looking at it too simplistically. If i buy a watch for 15K, and its worth 20K on the grey market. I am not the one getting 20K. A dealer is getting 20K and the dealer will make more money on the trade than me. So, I'm likely to get 16-17 from the dealer and only if its new unworn. Once i wear it, that price goes down. Yes in this scenario, its still a profit, but that was during covid, these margins have been squeezed now and most dealers are now offering under retail to get their grey market above retail profit.
Today's modern Rolex regular production watch is tomorrow's Beenie Baby - too many being stored unworn with hopes of future Paul Newman Daytona payday.
Not everything in life needs to be an investment or a way to make money. So many things are monetized and commercialized. That's a good way to sap all of the fun out of them. Maybe watches CAN be investments, but wouldn't we all enjoy this space more if we just... let go?
The value retention becomes important when you are a collector , you can’t just keep buying expensive watches and get washed every time you sell a piece.
Agree. Think Capital Asset is a better term than investment, but that is my only my opinion based on working in finance. I also think that if a person is so concerned about value, then maybe you can’t afford to purchase luxury products 😅. I apply this view personally and have determined I can’t afford certain pieces. Yes I can buy one but if the value goes to zero and this causes me a discomfort….well maybe there were better products other than watches I should have put my money into.
Nobody has taste that is right or wrong. Everyone is different. But I think he usually makes a good choice. Globemaster is a good choice, in our opinion.
It is crazy to me how cheap (comparatively) some Breguets are on the used market. For cheaper than a new steel datejust you can get an 18k gold Breguet Classique
Its crazy right? Preowned Breguet is the best-kept (open) secret in the watch community. I pray that they dont pull a JLC and jack all their MSRP's up by 40%
I don't think JLC will die off but I fear it becomes a brand like Breguet or Blancpain. Directionless, monotonous and lacking in investment from the parent company. All JLC have been releasing recently are new dials to old watches. Prices have doubled compared to 4 years ago for what are essentially the same watches.
I think that the Bremont take is short sighted. I am not going to advocate that Bremont is as storied as Longines or Omega, however, Bremont has a real partnership with armed serviced around the world doing interesting collaborations with the SBS, RAF, CIA, Army Rangers, US Air Force Special Ops, Navy Seals, ect ect. This alone allows for very cool unique watches to be out there on a persons wrist who would have a storied military career. These watches would have special unit insignia on them as well.
I agree and I like their chronos and some of their divers but they just seem to be overpriced for what you get. And when you do compare to say Longines that has a longer history and cheaper prices, Bremont loses out.
Yeah, Bremont are a bit directionless but they have become easily the largest British watchmaker. Their most "iconic" model is for sure the Martin Baker. They should focus more on that line and cut out all those special/limited editions. As usual, Christian and Michael winging it.
you can't argue against watches not being an investment, by definition, they are a speculation (unless you are going to use them for their intrinsic value) buying something you think or know will go up in value is not the definition of investment.
The globemaster is literally one fot he few candidates for a proper "one watch collection", casual enough for everyday, and fromal enough for dress, a caliber that has and independently set hour hand that is perfect for travel, date at 6, and 150m of WR, you cannot get any better.
Watch investing is less and investment and more a ponzi. It's way too few an opportunity for anyone to really take part and with the consistent theme of 'limited production', it is so totally and completely easy to gatekeep and manipulate. The watch companies themselves can easily inflate prices, simply place a product on Rafa Nadals wrist, Lebron James wrist, less than a hundred pieces in production, rinse and repeat.
i got the call 4 weeks ago. thirteen months on the waitlist at a small cottage/ski resort town jeweller in ontario. no purchase history needed. just patience. i picked up my 224270 with total excitement and i plan on exploring with it (double wristing it with my current adventure watch, my GSAR). i paid CDN $10,226 incl. tax. i could have sold it for $13,900 (according to chrono 24) within a week or so of purchasing it. that's definitely attractive.
If retail on a watch is $5,000 and I can see in the market they are holding that value, then I have no problem with paying full retail. If retail on a watch is $5,000 and in the market they are selling for $4,000, it won't make me feel like I'm having a luxury experience to pay full retail, it will make me feel like a sucker. This idea that retailers shouldn't discount only works if the retail price is somewhat aligned with how the market values the watch. I get that that's tough for many brands because, let's say you make a steel sports watch that's objectively as good as a Rolex, if you price it way below Rolex you're sending a message to buyers that it's not as good. But for me, I have no interest in paying 20% more than I need to in order to build some brand's prestige, nor to have some vague idea of luxury experience. Over years of use, the product gives me a luxury experience or it doesn't, much more than the hour or whatever that I'm in the store (or more likely, online... clicking a "buy" button that charges me $5,000 is not more luxury that an identical "buy" button that charges me $4,000).
I’m glad you brought up the Worldtimer. I keep it mainly on the blue strap but have the bracelet and also a custom made deployant brown leather strap. It seems to be more overlooked in the Omega lineup to date, (probably due somewhat to the size being prohibitive for some). However the CEO has worn it on many occasions and Omega are clearly very proud of it. After two years of ownership, throwing many challenges at it including windsurfing, ocean swimming, snorkelling, DIY projects and wearing it throughout most days, it still looks and feels great, whether worn smart or casual and it is the most accurate automatic in my collection( aside from the date starting to change over at 23.20). However for time keeping, extra magic and wizardry thrown in for the 8938 and 8939 movements I think!
My wife recently bought me a Reverso at current retail for my birthday at the boutique, ouch I know, but she did negotiate two alligator straps and the engraving. It’s a forever piece, not an investment for trade later that’s for sure. I absolutely love my JLC and my loving wife much more. ❤
The problem with watches as an investment IMO is that many people then assume watches are a discrete asset class and can be objectively valued using finance models. They are not and cannot. Rather, they nest under the Collectibles asset class, with coins, stamps, art, Hummel figurines, and Howdy-Doody lunch boxes. Hence, watch values depend solely on supply and demand interactions. And, for collectibles, the classic supply/demand model with a curved supply line does not apply. Rather, the supply line is vertical, so the only thing that can increase prices is a shift in demand. Age, condition, and rarity don’t matter absent a supply and demand for that supply. Very speculative.
Just 1 word: rolex will never die.. because they are just fighting for brand survivance! And no profits compared to richemont, swatch group and on a lower level Lvmh (lvmh have enough money to wait and build brands). Omega is the only rolex credible challenger but... part of swatch group...
my collection is a smp300 and an orient bambino. The smp300 is great but i cant help but feel basic when I glance at its gorgeous white dial. My black bay 36 smile dial had character, my spirit zulu time had character and class. As proud as i am to own the seamaster, It will be the last obvious main stream-trendy piece get. No black submariner, no black bay 58. Im thinking brew metric, spring drive, club campus baby!
I’m a 5 digit Rolex guy. My daily is a Bluesy and I get lost in that sunburst dial every day. I have a collector grade GMT Coke P serial…..love that watch and I’m on the hunt for a P serial Zenith Daytona to pair with my Coke. Each of these has a story for me. Investment in watches to me is not about the money. It’s an investment of the heart. The story of what that watch means to me and how the watch found me.
Shouldn't the Ploprof be a dive computer in 2023? Otherwise it's a cool callback but it's a bit weird to make a watch that's too dive-y for regular wear but not dive-y enough to actually dive with. I think a dive computer Ploprof would be insanely cool.
Interesting but I think very accurate assessment of watches being an investment. I think they can be much like the car market. Older cars in great condition are collectible and market segments rise and fall depending on tastes but over time rise in value. New cars generally decrease in price but in time the ones in great condition go back up and become valuable. I think buying a modern watch in general is not a good investment but I do like that most of the money spent is not instantly gone when you walk out the door.
Christian and Mike-very interesting point regarding the future of prices, you guys are right. Here is a small example; I never knew that within a few years, the Rolex Sub that I have always lusted after and viewed as a potential purchase would move from $8000 to $9000. You guys and your idea is not so far fetched
Timing is everything. I wasn’t thinking investment when I bought my Rolex’s (from AD)but had no problem selling them when the price multiplied in the secondary market. I had no emotional attachment (including the black face Daytona and the Pepsi plus one other Daytona and the milgauss). I didn’t regret the transaction as I smiled all the way to the bank.
Watches are a terrible investment, in order to buy from any brand that actually makes money after retail, you have to spend X amount to even play the game or be on a list to get it at retail. Why would anyone think they can make investment type money from the grey market, it’s too volatile, just look at what has happened to the recent price decreases. You either lose a lot of money or make a couple thousand here or there, for me that’s not an investment that’s a get “rich” quick scheme. So in order to really make the big money increases, you need to buy it at retail and as I mentioned, the barrier to entry is far too high. You can invest into the S&P500 with no cost to you apart from your investment, the barrier to entry is far lower and if your patient you can gain thousands in compound interest.
I've never even heard of Bremont... ever. How do they justify the prices? Why would you buy a Bremont if you can get an Omega for the same price. And it's not like they have anything particularly special or noteworthy. To say that watches are an investment or not, depends on how you define investment. If a watch I like happens to not lose value and I can sell it down the line for minimal loss or a little profit, that's an "investment" to me. I am enjoying a watch and I am not losing money on it.
Great questions & insights. Love the format. Resurgence of yellow gold. Not sure anymore. I think this was about to happen but the world has changed…economic downturn, crypto downturn, post lockdown increase in supply, reduction in the flipper market and rise in watch crime. Cumulative impact - reduction in demand for precious metal watches. We’re seeing this in retail availability and 2nd hand prices. Do I think Rolex will reinvigorate the Midas - yes probably. BUT I think the demand remains niche, the wider trend is instead stealth wealth, under the radar and limited range / piece uniques (if you know you know). I think we’re seeing the decline of “bling culture”. It’ll become non-PC and a liability to flaunt wealth, and this will impact trends in design and the sense of it being an investment. But it will continue to be an “asset” that holds its value. Just my take. What do you think?
In my opinion, I believe the wealthy, who are less prone to economic winds versus everyone else, will move more towards white gold, stealth wealth. For the past decade, white gold has been treated like a step child compared to rose and yellow. That, I forecast will change and the grey market will have to adjust. Right now they are behind the curve. Brands like Brunello C , which is thriving, focus on quiet luxury.
Omega is a good mass produced, machine made watch. The power reserve is not very good. A luxury watch should have a minimum of 70 hours. The helium escape valve on the divers is useless and bad looking. I would rate Omega just under Rolex.
I think when people think “investment” in watches or sports cards or guitars or other fetishized goods they think way too short term. Those things can be good investments if you like them enough to hold on to them long term. If you are trying to flip them instantly you’re bound to get hurt more often than you win.
Watches cannot be predictable long-term investment. You have zero ability b to evaluate the future of popular style. The other issue is.. at scale, as in large amounts of money, liquidity is a problem.
Some people can predict the future better. When it comes to certain vintage watches that of course is not made any more you can predict that the demand ALWAYS will be high, this is a fact.
I mean just about everything can be called an "investment" and almost everything is, at a trading level. It's whether or not it is a good investment...at the moment, most "high-street" watches are not really.
Watches are not an investment. What is wrong with people, and when will these people understand that an object can actually have more than one ability? Of course a watch can be an investment, often maybe not a fantastic investment but better than basting the money of partying and other activities that will see you end up with nothing to show for. Also the more you know about watches the more you could succeed in using watches as an investment vehicle. I just bought an incredible gorgeous IWC watch on eBay, bad photo and not really the best description from the seller so I gambled a little bit and when the watch arrived I was blown away, I am 100% sure that this watch will be a fantastic investment regardless when I decide to sell it.
Learn more and buy more.... This is what I did with Cartier years ago .... Bought into them when they were considered granny watches .... Now I'm sitting in collectables that my relatives can blow once I'm gone because I love these things since they are perfect on my scrawny wrists..... But the thought that IF I had to sell them.... They were a great investment because I bought wasaaaay cheaper than what prices are nowadays and these are solid gold pieces 😊
@@rudyvasquez3917 Good job, of course watches is about passion but who can justify buying these objects for thousands and thousands if they lost a lot of value? Only a fool or a very rich person would do it. Passion goes hand in hand with the investment part of it.
Breitling could be really great again, but, it is as if they have a design team made up of 1950s car salesman. If they were a little more subtle with their recent changes and totally committed eg stop coloring the logo gold when it doesn't make sense, they could would return to the top high horology levels.
Watches are a store of value. They don't generate dividends. Similar to gold. Buy a watch, enjoy it. If you ever need to sell it, you should get something back. Happy days.
For me, watches are an emotional investment. Yes, I can potentially sell a few (maybe) but not really for a profit. At purchase cost at best. That said, ive been collecting for over ten years and am not looking at buying anything or selling anything atm.
Investments: assets that generate cash flows, and that will generate future cash flows that you can discount to their present value. A flip is different than a dividend, a rent, or an harvest.
I don’t look at extrinsic value when I look to buy a watch. I want the watch to mean something to me. Maybe it’s the year or the color. But Rolex is always going to be desirable because most people can’t name you 4 other brands.
I got an OP for 4400 and that model is selling for around 7000 now. I wish i bought a dozen of them. Actually i wish i had a hundred of them. Rolex makes a great investment, if you choose the right models.
How about we just wear and enjoy them? They are and always will be luxury goods that may or may not hold their value long term. They never were and never will be investments. The brief speculation that happened during COVID is a fraction and freak occurrence compared to the long history of these watch brands.
I’m with you. I want no part of negotiating on a luxury experience. I speak primarily as an independent collector, but I’d be embarrassing myself to ask for such a thing. Now that I think about it, I just bought the latest JLC chronograph and it would have been far less enjoyable had I injected the notion of a discount into the afternoon. I believe if I needed a discount, I’d probably need to reconsider buying the watch in the first place.
Buying a watch and calling it an investment is like putting 50000$ on the Lakers winning the NBA championship this year and calling that an investment. Same thing with art and other "collectables". It's really much more like gambling... people there also have a "system" and indeed it works out sometimes. Of course there is no physical good present with a sports bet, but the watch, stamp, coin, painting etc. generates no cash flow and thus has a net present value zero. As such you are literally betting on the fact that someone is willing to buy that good for a higher price in the future.
Wrong, if you buy a watch at least you know that you will probably be able to get your money back the day you want to sell, not when you buy a new watch at retail but a second hand watch, that’s as far away from gambling as I can possible imagine.
@@truxton1000 Well, not exactly. The only difference is the expiration date. A watch lasts long so it can be sold a few years down the line, a bet is done and worthless once the event happened (for a watch that would be once the materials determined irreversibly, ie decades or even centuries) but before the event most bookies offer to take back bets (at about the same profit margin that a watch dealer takes when you sell them a watch you bought there a while back) subject to market fluctuations of course (speculative just as watches) and there are even exchanges for bets (basically chrono24). It really isn't that different other than the time scale (which of course is a big deal). If you really want to invest in watches, buy shares in Swatch Group or WoS. And to be clear, I am not saying you won't get your money back on a Rolex Submariner or similar, but it is not investing and if the watch is bought for the purpose of making a profit (as discussed so often these days) then the only way to do this is based on market fluctuation (making it speculative like a gamble) and not sustained cash flows generated by the asset (a key aspect of a "real" investment). You can put it simpler. If something must be sold to make money, then it is not an investment.
Everything is an investment if you're abstract enough. You purchase an item if the price is less than the value you get out of it. Also, for many items, you seek to resell the item after you have gotten enough value out of it. Watches are no different than investing in your child's education, purchasing stocks, buying a hamburger for lunch, or even paying for a parking spot. If you aren't going to get the value out of it to justify the price, it's a bad deal.
In the comments: lot’s of talking, little real experience. I have a couple Rolex watches (among others). I bought them 10-15y for 3-5k EUR. They are now worth 10-15k…
@@roytofilovski9530 you guys clearly have no clue about the Rolex market. Possibility you don’t even own one. So please don’t embarrass yourself anymore
I have my eye on the Bremont Supermarine GMT Descent II. I like the bronze bezel and blue strap option. Much better design than a Seamaster 300 which is tired.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
The problem with investment is people are looking at it too simplistically. If i buy a watch for 15K, and its worth 20K on the grey market. I am not the one getting 20K. A dealer is getting 20K and the dealer will make more money on the trade than me. So, I'm likely to get 16-17 from the dealer and only if its new unworn. Once i wear it, that price goes down. Yes in this scenario, its still a profit, but that was during covid, these margins have been squeezed now and most dealers are now offering under retail to get their grey market above retail profit.
Today's modern Rolex regular production watch is tomorrow's Beenie Baby - too many being stored unworn with hopes of future Paul Newman Daytona payday.
Michael always looks like he was standing behind a jet engine right before they started filming
$#@!ing love listening to these conversations at work. This channel makes not having friends who care about watches less painful.
What a surprise that they pump up vintage watches and shun modern watches.
It's almost like they sell vintage watches.....oh yeah.
Not everything in life needs to be an investment or a way to make money. So many things are monetized and commercialized. That's a good way to sap all of the fun out of them. Maybe watches CAN be investments, but wouldn't we all enjoy this space more if we just... let go?
That's the American way. Everything is about money and making more money. Unbridled capitalism.
@@heiner71china too
Amen. Exactly right. All this investment talk is frustrating but then I suppose it means a lot to some people
The value retention becomes important when you are a collector , you can’t just keep buying expensive watches and get washed every time you sell a piece.
Agree. Think Capital Asset is a better term than investment, but that is my only my opinion based on working in finance. I also think that if a person is so concerned about value, then maybe you can’t afford to purchase luxury products 😅. I apply this view personally and have determined I can’t afford certain pieces. Yes I can buy one but if the value goes to zero and this causes me a discomfort….well maybe there were better products other than watches I should have put my money into.
If I remember correctly, Teddy Baldassarre has a Globemaster in his collection. He's a big fan.
Gorgeous watch. The man has taste.
He wears turtlenecks. He gets lucky sometimes in his choices
Nobody has taste that is right or wrong. Everyone is different. But I think he usually makes a good choice. Globemaster is a good choice, in our opinion.
@BobbyDazzler888 he does dress kind of goofy sometimes. But he knows a ton about watches.
Buy watches you love and enjoy wearing. For me a watch should never be put away in a safe and hidden from the world because it’s an ‘investment’
It is crazy to me how cheap (comparatively) some Breguets are on the used market. For cheaper than a new steel datejust you can get an 18k gold Breguet Classique
Its crazy right? Preowned Breguet is the best-kept (open) secret in the watch community. I pray that they dont pull a JLC and jack all their MSRP's up by 40%
JLC. They’ve made a fatal error with dramatic late cycle price hikes and it will be deadly to the brand, sadly.
I think jlc should be more expensive. They've been low for a long time
@@geno816 Timing is everything 😉
I don't think JLC will die off but I fear it becomes a brand like Breguet or Blancpain. Directionless, monotonous and lacking in investment from the parent company. All JLC have been releasing recently are new dials to old watches. Prices have doubled compared to 4 years ago for what are essentially the same watches.
Oh shit, Michael's hair is a shape shifting Sith. It changed and moved by itself while filming!😮😮😮
Its hypnotizing 😵💫
Lol. It did. Kind of look like a couple of elves.
That hair looks like it needs a video of its own.
I think that the Bremont take is short sighted. I am not going to advocate that Bremont is as storied as Longines or Omega, however, Bremont has a real partnership with armed serviced around the world doing interesting collaborations with the SBS, RAF, CIA, Army Rangers, US Air Force Special Ops, Navy Seals, ect ect. This alone allows for very cool unique watches to be out there on a persons wrist who would have a storied military career. These watches would have special unit insignia on them as well.
I agree and I like their chronos and some of their divers but they just seem to be overpriced for what you get. And when you do compare to say Longines that has a longer history and cheaper prices, Bremont loses out.
Yeah, Bremont are a bit directionless but they have become easily the largest British watchmaker. Their most "iconic" model is for sure the Martin Baker. They should focus more on that line and cut out all those special/limited editions.
As usual, Christian and Michael winging it.
you can't argue against watches not being an investment, by definition, they are a speculation (unless you are going to use them for their intrinsic value)
buying something you think or know will go up in value is not the definition of investment.
The globemaster is literally one fot he few candidates for a proper "one watch collection", casual enough for everyday, and fromal enough for dress, a caliber that has and independently set hour hand that is perfect for travel, date at 6, and 150m of WR, you cannot get any better.
Watch investing is less and investment and more a ponzi. It's way too few an opportunity for anyone to really take part and with the consistent theme of 'limited production', it is so totally and completely easy to gatekeep and manipulate. The watch companies themselves can easily inflate prices, simply place a product on Rafa Nadals wrist, Lebron James wrist, less than a hundred pieces in production, rinse and repeat.
i got the call 4 weeks ago. thirteen months on the waitlist at a small cottage/ski resort town jeweller in ontario. no purchase history needed. just patience.
i picked up my 224270 with total excitement and i plan on exploring with it (double wristing it with my current adventure watch, my GSAR).
i paid CDN $10,226 incl. tax. i could have sold it for $13,900 (according to chrono 24) within a week or so of purchasing it. that's definitely attractive.
LOVE Bremont Watch designs. They truly nail that British Aviation heritage. Don't really care that they are not a really old company.
There are certain watches you NEVER buy at retail, such as Bremont… pick it up in the grey market for half the price…
what's the reference of the Tudor day date shown at 28.43?
If retail on a watch is $5,000 and I can see in the market they are holding that value, then I have no problem with paying full retail. If retail on a watch is $5,000 and in the market they are selling for $4,000, it won't make me feel like I'm having a luxury experience to pay full retail, it will make me feel like a sucker. This idea that retailers shouldn't discount only works if the retail price is somewhat aligned with how the market values the watch. I get that that's tough for many brands because, let's say you make a steel sports watch that's objectively as good as a Rolex, if you price it way below Rolex you're sending a message to buyers that it's not as good. But for me, I have no interest in paying 20% more than I need to in order to build some brand's prestige, nor to have some vague idea of luxury experience. Over years of use, the product gives me a luxury experience or it doesn't, much more than the hour or whatever that I'm in the store (or more likely, online... clicking a "buy" button that charges me $5,000 is not more luxury that an identical "buy" button that charges me $4,000).
I’m glad you brought up the Worldtimer. I keep it mainly on the blue strap but have the bracelet and also a custom made deployant brown leather strap. It seems to be more overlooked in the Omega lineup to date, (probably due somewhat to the size being prohibitive for some). However the CEO has worn it on many occasions and Omega are clearly very proud of it.
After two years of ownership, throwing many challenges at it including windsurfing, ocean swimming, snorkelling, DIY projects and wearing it throughout most days, it still looks and feels great, whether worn smart or casual and it is the most accurate automatic in my collection( aside from the date starting to change over at 23.20). However for time keeping, extra magic and wizardry thrown in for the 8938 and 8939 movements I think!
My wife recently bought me a Reverso at current retail for my birthday at the boutique, ouch I know, but she did negotiate two alligator straps and the engraving. It’s a forever piece, not an investment for trade later that’s for sure. I absolutely love my JLC and my loving wife much more. ❤
Which adidas shoe is on the back wall?
investment vs speculation.. Easy way to educate someone in two minutes, why you cant invest in watches. All you need is a dictionary.
Most real point - Breguet in precious metal is way undervalued
The problem with watches as an investment IMO is that many people then assume watches are a discrete asset class and can be objectively valued using finance models. They are not and cannot. Rather, they nest under the Collectibles asset class, with coins, stamps, art, Hummel figurines, and Howdy-Doody lunch boxes. Hence, watch values depend solely on supply and demand interactions. And, for collectibles, the classic supply/demand model with a curved supply line does not apply. Rather, the supply line is vertical, so the only thing that can increase prices is a shift in demand. Age, condition, and rarity don’t matter absent a supply and demand for that supply. Very speculative.
Just 1 word: rolex will never die.. because they are just fighting for brand survivance! And no profits compared to richemont, swatch group and on a lower level Lvmh (lvmh have enough money to wait and build brands).
Omega is the only rolex credible challenger but... part of swatch group...
nothing dies until it does
That’s not 1 word 😂
my collection is a smp300 and an orient bambino. The smp300 is great but i cant help but feel basic when I glance at its gorgeous white dial. My black bay 36 smile dial had character, my spirit zulu time had character and class.
As proud as i am to own the seamaster, It will be the last obvious main stream-trendy piece get. No black submariner, no black bay 58. Im thinking brew metric, spring drive, club campus baby!
I’m a 5 digit Rolex guy. My daily is a Bluesy and I get lost in that sunburst dial every day. I have a collector grade GMT Coke P serial…..love that watch and I’m on the hunt for a P serial Zenith Daytona to pair with my Coke. Each of these has a story for me. Investment in watches to me is not about the money. It’s an investment of the heart. The story of what that watch means to me and how the watch found me.
What do you guys think about the oyster quarts day date as an under appreciated 222 alternative?
A decent alternative, but they are a pain to service I hear, if a part needs replacing.
Shouldn't the Ploprof be a dive computer in 2023? Otherwise it's a cool callback but it's a bit weird to make a watch that's too dive-y for regular wear but not dive-y enough to actually dive with. I think a dive computer Ploprof would be insanely cool.
Interesting but I think very accurate assessment of watches being an investment. I think they can be much like the car market. Older cars in great condition are collectible and market segments rise and fall depending on tastes but over time rise in value. New cars generally decrease in price but in time the ones in great condition go back up and become valuable. I think buying a modern watch in general is not a good investment but I do like that most of the money spent is not instantly gone when you walk out the door.
Omega Ck 859 reissue is brilliant but not for everyone.
Is that a tiger eye dial on a tank?
Christian and Mike-very interesting point regarding the future of prices, you guys are right. Here is a small example; I never knew that within a few years, the Rolex Sub that I have always lusted after and viewed as a potential purchase would move from $8000 to $9000. You guys and your idea is not so far fetched
Timing is everything. I wasn’t thinking investment when I bought my Rolex’s (from AD)but had no problem selling them when the price multiplied in the secondary market. I had no emotional attachment (including the black face Daytona and the Pepsi plus one other Daytona and the milgauss). I didn’t regret the transaction as I smiled all the way to the bank.
Watches are a terrible investment, in order to buy from any brand that actually makes money after retail, you have to spend X amount to even play the game or be on a list to get it at retail.
Why would anyone think they can make investment type money from the grey market, it’s too volatile, just look at what has happened to the recent price decreases.
You either lose a lot of money or make a couple thousand here or there, for me that’s not an investment that’s a get “rich” quick scheme.
So in order to really make the big money increases, you need to buy it at retail and as I mentioned, the barrier to entry is far too high. You can invest into the S&P500 with no cost to you apart from your investment, the barrier to entry is far lower and if your patient you can gain thousands in compound interest.
Boy math is top tier in this video and is more and more true to justify our watch purchases for the rest of us😅
60s and early 70s Muscle cars. What cost a few grand in the 80s, is now 20-30k and higher. Some 100k+.. what was 500 is now 5k+
Fair enough, but you had to wait over 50 years. Who thinks 50 years into the future? Almost nobody.
Every single muscle car?
Or ones that weren’t really used but maintained?
I've never even heard of Bremont... ever. How do they justify the prices? Why would you buy a Bremont if you can get an Omega for the same price. And it's not like they have anything particularly special or noteworthy.
To say that watches are an investment or not, depends on how you define investment. If a watch I like happens to not lose value and I can sell it down the line for minimal loss or a little profit, that's an "investment" to me. I am enjoying a watch and I am not losing money on it.
Far tougher design than any of the mainstream omegas or Rolexes.
globe master isolated hour hand works better than gtm for me
Great questions & insights. Love the format.
Resurgence of yellow gold. Not sure anymore. I think this was about to happen but the world has changed…economic downturn, crypto downturn, post lockdown increase in supply, reduction in the flipper market and rise in watch crime.
Cumulative impact - reduction in demand for precious metal watches. We’re seeing this in retail availability and 2nd hand prices. Do I think Rolex will reinvigorate the Midas - yes probably.
BUT I think the demand remains niche, the wider trend is instead stealth wealth, under the radar and limited range / piece uniques (if you know you know).
I think we’re seeing the decline of “bling culture”. It’ll become non-PC and a liability to flaunt wealth, and this will impact trends in design and the sense of it being an investment. But it will continue to be an “asset” that holds its value.
Just my take. What do you think?
Great comment! 100% agree
In my opinion, I believe the wealthy, who are less prone to economic winds versus everyone else, will move more towards white gold, stealth wealth. For the past decade, white gold has been treated like a step child compared to rose and yellow. That, I forecast will change and the grey market will have to adjust. Right now they are behind the curve. Brands like Brunello C , which is thriving, focus on quiet luxury.
Omega is a good mass produced, machine made watch. The power reserve is not very good. A luxury watch should have a minimum of 70 hours. The helium escape valve on the divers is useless and bad looking. I would rate Omega just under Rolex.
If I buy a Rolex well and want out of it, if I break even, that’s all I’m really looking for. Anything else is a bonus.
Lol. They have gone up in value so much over the last 10 years it's crazy. 90% of the oyster case models will go up in value.
I think when people think “investment” in watches or sports cards or guitars or other fetishized goods they think way too short term. Those things can be good investments if you like them enough to hold on to them long term. If you are trying to flip them instantly you’re bound to get hurt more often than you win.
Watches cannot be predictable long-term investment. You have zero ability b to evaluate the future of popular style. The other issue is.. at scale, as in large amounts of money, liquidity is a problem.
Some people can predict the future better. When it comes to certain vintage watches that of course is not made any more you can predict that the demand ALWAYS will be high, this is a fact.
“TPG expo”. Michael is undefeated 😂😂😂
Mike’s hair grew fast af
if only
I mean just about everything can be called an "investment" and almost everything is, at a trading level. It's whether or not it is a good investment...at the moment, most "high-street" watches are not really.
Michel, what is going on with your hair bro? ✂
Watches are not an investment. What is wrong with people, and when will these people understand that an object can actually have more than one ability? Of course a watch can be an investment, often maybe not a fantastic investment but better than basting the money of partying and other activities that will see you end up with nothing to show for. Also the more you know about watches the more you could succeed in using watches as an investment vehicle. I just bought an incredible gorgeous IWC watch on eBay, bad photo and not really the best description from the seller so I gambled a little bit and when the watch arrived I was blown away, I am 100% sure that this watch will be a fantastic investment regardless when I decide to sell it.
Learn more and buy more.... This is what I did with Cartier years ago .... Bought into them when they were considered granny watches .... Now I'm sitting in collectables that my relatives can blow once I'm gone because I love these things since they are perfect on my scrawny wrists..... But the thought that IF I had to sell them.... They were a great investment because I bought wasaaaay cheaper than what prices are nowadays and these are solid gold pieces 😊
@@rudyvasquez3917 Good job, of course watches is about passion but who can justify buying these objects for thousands and thousands if they lost a lot of value? Only a fool or a very rich person would do it. Passion goes hand in hand with the investment part of it.
@@truxton1000 no my man, these are luxury goods, not investment pieces.... Luxury goods are not investments man
@@rudyvasquez3917 So if I bought an Omega watch in 1994 for £60 and sold it this year for £800 that was not an investment? You must be joking.
@@truxton1000 thats luck man.... It's not always going to be that way especially with an Omega
Everyone always says watches are not an investment - they always say that because it's true.
This is most sane take on the "are watches investments?" Question
Breitling could be really great again, but, it is as if they have a design team made up of 1950s car salesman. If they were a little more subtle with their recent changes and totally committed eg stop coloring the logo gold when it doesn't make sense, they could would return to the top high horology levels.
I see Vacheron Constantin releasing the Historiques 222 in steel and it will take the watch collecting world by storm. You heard it here first. Lol.
Ebel is a forgotten brand. It went to sleep 20 years ago.
Watches are a store of value. They don't generate dividends. Similar to gold. Buy a watch, enjoy it. If you ever need to sell it, you should get something back. Happy days.
For me, watches are an emotional investment. Yes, I can potentially sell a few (maybe) but not really for a profit. At purchase cost at best. That said, ive been collecting for over ten years and am not looking at buying anything or selling anything atm.
Investments: assets that generate cash flows, and that will generate future cash flows that you can discount to their present value.
A flip is different than a dividend, a rent, or an harvest.
I don’t look at extrinsic value when I look to buy a watch. I want the watch to mean something to me. Maybe it’s the year or the color. But Rolex is always going to be desirable because most people can’t name you 4 other brands.
But most people will have doubts your Rolex is real or not, lots of them will even ask this humiliating question.
I’ve brought 4 Rolexes. Have sold two. Doubled money on both….
You can retire now.
Congratulations.
I got an OP for 4400 and that model is selling for around 7000 now. I wish i bought a dozen of them. Actually i wish i had a hundred of them. Rolex makes a great investment, if you choose the right models.
The worldtimer is too big.
Please don't shill the Constellation too much - I'm saving up for one.
Some beef with Roni?
Michael did you let your cat or bird style your hair this morning?
MIchael...what is going on with you hair?
How about we just wear and enjoy them? They are and always will be luxury goods that may or may not hold their value long term. They never were and never will be investments. The brief speculation that happened during COVID is a fraction and freak occurrence compared to the long history of these watch brands.
If the Piaget polo was around 8k, I'd seriously want to buy, but it's over 10k. I'm out.
Roni is the coolest dude. Talking watches should get him back
Guy on the left looks homeless
Casually predicts talking watches guests?
Negotiating a price is part of the experience…
The PloProf is so efffing fire.
Wait…everyone prefers steel, or not many people can afford a solid gold watch? I would say there’s probably more truth in the latter…
Harris needs to take a look in the mirror and fix his hair, before starting to record videos.
globemaster is not impressive. fluted bezel way worse than roxel. details are just not there on this watch
Ah man, i sometimes ponder selling the Rolex my Granddad left me, but it reminds me of him, and i never thought id own one
Don’t
Keep it
Don’t do it. In time, the money can be earned again. But you will never get your granddad’s watch back if you sell it
Dear lord, don't do that. That'd be one watch you'd regret getting rid of.
Is Michael wearing a toupeé?
**The Best Talking Watches: With Moki Martin
My favorite Talking Watches Episode was Moki Martin. What a story, and really shows how vital watches were as tools.
Hall & Oats of watches. 👍🏼
You guys do a great job. Very entertaining and I always learn something new. Thanks!!
the guy on the lefts hair is always so messy
As long as the piece gets me a few shillings towards a better piece i tell myself im winning
I’m with you. I want no part of negotiating on a luxury experience. I speak primarily as an independent collector, but I’d be embarrassing myself to ask for such a thing. Now that I think about it, I just bought the latest JLC chronograph and it would have been far less enjoyable had I injected the notion of a discount into the afternoon. I believe if I needed a discount, I’d probably need to reconsider buying the watch in the first place.
Lol this is just such a ridiculous take.
TF is going in with Michael’s hair? Tighten it up.
Is Christian hungover? He seems like he doesnt feel well
I hope he is. Live a little.
@@tyarnold4088 no. I demand sobriety
@@omar10213245 I don't even drink. But I think that guy definitely needs to live a little. Maybe I'm wrong and he snorts lines every day. Who knows?
@@tyarnold4088 Christian lives. He lives, ty. He lives.
@@omar10213245 I hope so. I wonder if the only thing he ever does is talk about watches and dress like an elf.
Buying a watch and calling it an investment is like putting 50000$ on the Lakers winning the NBA championship this year and calling that an investment. Same thing with art and other "collectables". It's really much more like gambling... people there also have a "system" and indeed it works out sometimes.
Of course there is no physical good present with a sports bet, but the watch, stamp, coin, painting etc. generates no cash flow and thus has a net present value zero. As such you are literally betting on the fact that someone is willing to buy that good for a higher price in the future.
Wrong, if you buy a watch at least you know that you will probably be able to get your money back the day you want to sell, not when you buy a new watch at retail but a second hand watch, that’s as far away from gambling as I can possible imagine.
@@truxton1000 Well, not exactly. The only difference is the expiration date. A watch lasts long so it can be sold a few years down the line, a bet is done and worthless once the event happened (for a watch that would be once the materials determined irreversibly, ie decades or even centuries) but before the event most bookies offer to take back bets (at about the same profit margin that a watch dealer takes when you sell them a watch you bought there a while back) subject to market fluctuations of course (speculative just as watches) and there are even exchanges for bets (basically chrono24). It really isn't that different other than the time scale (which of course is a big deal).
If you really want to invest in watches, buy shares in Swatch Group or WoS. And to be clear, I am not saying you won't get your money back on a Rolex Submariner or similar, but it is not investing and if the watch is bought for the purpose of making a profit (as discussed so often these days) then the only way to do this is based on market fluctuation (making it speculative like a gamble) and not sustained cash flows generated by the asset (a key aspect of a "real" investment).
You can put it simpler. If something must be sold to make money, then it is not an investment.
who is theo?
Everything is an investment if you're abstract enough. You purchase an item if the price is less than the value you get out of it. Also, for many items, you seek to resell the item after you have gotten enough value out of it. Watches are no different than investing in your child's education, purchasing stocks, buying a hamburger for lunch, or even paying for a parking spot. If you aren't going to get the value out of it to justify the price, it's a bad deal.
In the comments: lot’s of talking, little real experience. I have a couple Rolex watches (among others). I bought them 10-15y for 3-5k EUR. They are now worth 10-15k…
Unless you have sold those watches they are not worth anything, actually. Put them on the market and see what you actually get.
And now they are coming back down.
@@roytofilovski9530 you guys clearly have no clue about the Rolex market. Possibility you don’t even own one. So please don’t embarrass yourself anymore
Love you guys, Michael use hairbrush😉😉👍
Michael is currently experiencing homelessness and Christian's just sick about it.
😂😂@@voxer99
that hair though
who is harris?
This episode is brought to you by vegamour
Biver with so many minute repeaters in “excellent” condition non pretentious has got to be a joke
Watches are not investments.
Here we go down the drain again... 😔
I have my eye on the Bremont Supermarine GMT Descent II. I like the bronze bezel and blue strap option. Much better design than a Seamaster 300 which is tired.
Just bought one this Wednesday. Far better in so many ways than other Lux divers plus the GMT makes it the perfect vacation watch.