I like lesser-known mechs like this that fail spectacularly at their intended role. With just a little bit of love, a little bit of elbow grease, (and a complete and utter refit of their internal systems in weapons packages) they can be remade to serve far more effectively!
This attitude right here is why i don't do stock mechs. I pick a mech for it's looks. Then gut it and max out armor. Toss in a couple jump jets now and then then put on enough fire power to head clip on an alpha strike and minimal heat build up for multiple alpha strikes.
I like the thorn overall, with considerable success. What it depends on is what it is used for. Between cost effectiveness, and skirmish/low scale battles. With urban areas, with forestry, with areas that have questionable terrain, I'd rather have this than a locust, or a comparable 20 to 25 tonner. And if used against vehicles and gun emplacements, the thorn's higher accuracy in combat due to its tendency to not only have a slower max speed, but also due to its slower speed altogether as more often one would keep it at cruising speeds, accompanying and supporting light tanks. The other aspect is not all battles are blitzkriegs. It's arm allows it to be able to go prone for long range fire with minimal return damage. In urban environments, I tend to use it like a hunchback against appropriately sized goes, and having the speed and yet the armor to both get away and successfully make those piloting rolls on slippery surfaces. Any more speed and it'd kill itself on the first slip up, like so many locusts do.
The Thorn is a great example of "Let's make it cheap and let's make it a mech". It's basically a "We can't afford to have a high-tech tank and want the flexibility of a mech", it seems.
The Thorn is actually very specifically designed for the Star League. The SLDF loved having Swiss army knife mechs. The Thorn was designed to at least try to punch above it's weight class. Everyone prioritizes the big stompy mechs. The Thorn? It's just a little guy. Nobody will notice it quietly in the backfield, popping off it's LRMs, then unloading everything else when the enemies get too close. Everyone always thinks of mechs as individuals; as heroes that can win wars alone. The Thorn is a solid line trooper. Instead of one Awesome, imagine a squad, or platoon of Thorns. The Thorn isn't meant to be a hero, it's meant to be an army. This role eventually went to the Urbanmech, but the Thorn did it better. They just didn't have the marketing or something.
@@patrickkenyon2326 A single Thorn is 1,653,120 c-bills. An Awesome is 6,598,170 c-bills. I have no idea if Sarna is accurate. I feel like it isn't, in this case. You would get 4 to 1. I think it'd probably be more like a dozen to one, cause that's typically how an Urbanmech comparison goes.
@@NemFX And 10 lights, or even 4, gives more battlefield versatility than 1 monster. No matter how unstoppable it may be, it can't be in 4 places at once.
@@patrickkenyon2326 yep! Honestly having a squad of light mechs with long range weapons, even weak ones, can kite a stronger mech to death. Everyone looks down on the humble ac2, until you watch the Blackjack or a Rifleman cut down mechs who cant even get into range to shoot back. A pack of fast light mechs with long range attacks like that? An Atlas would eventually get overwhelmed, because it literally cannot close the distance
The thorn is the rogue character that chucks a pebble at the guard and gives em the raspberry before scampering off. :) Also I gotta call Ford and ask if they felt that burn!
Maybe it’s just me, but a lot of the “slow” light mechs kind of appeal to me, even though a lot of the community views them as death traps. Mechs like the Panther, the Commando, and the Thorn all have good firepower for their weight bracket, they’re clearly intended for combat, as opposed to just scouting. I think I prefer them to a more “pure scout” like a Locust … which is annoyingly difficult to hit, but rarely can hurt anything. I feel like these mechs do enough damage for their BV to pose a threat, but not so much damage that your opponent is actually incentivized to focus fire at them (unlike, say, a Jenner which is extremely deadly but WILL definitely draw a ton of fire it cannot take). These are maybe not great mechs, but they’re not as awful as people portray them as. They’re more like just a poor man’s version of a medium mech.
I've been wondering what my "Starter" mechs were going to be in my ATOW campaign. Now I cam give my players a real piece of... history... yeah history, to enjoy. FORD's only mech. Get 'em while they're hot.
I would have thought, that the DC should be in love with this concept. Hords of small Mechs rushing agsinst the enemy, unabel to retreat. That is just their style...
If it weren't for the expensive internals, it might have served as an okay garrison mech on lower priority worlds. Easy to source weapons plus a light chassis usually equals low maintenance/repair costs.
As the house army's started to reach parity with the star league. A higher tech garrison mech is needed. Using Endo steel is a good way to accomplish this.
Good god no - the Thorn is a far more effective mech than the Commando. I simply do not understand the notion that the Commando is a A tier mech - it's a badly designed deathtrap.
I really think you are underestimating the Thorn. Sure, it is going to be out performed by heavier mechs, but that is true of all of the 20 tonners. 2 MLs is a solid close range firepower for a 20 tonner, and I think it compares favourly to the 2 MGs & ML on the stock Stinger & Locust and the ML & SRM-2 on the stock Wasp. There are Locust variants that bring more firepower to the table, in both a close range and support role, but they generally sacrifice so much armour that medium laser hits will tear off limbs. I feel like that Thorn makes a great part of a lance with the other 20 tonners. The Thorn can pepper the enemy with LRM fire during the approach, and hold the range as it's lancemates flank and screen the opponent before closing in to help deal a killing blow. I agree that the lack of jump jets is an issue, but I feel that attempting to fit them in would just cost too much on a 20 tonner; just look at the Hornet. I think a lot of people would feel differently about the Thorn if the THE-T was the stock variant. It trades the LRM-5 for a SRM-4, giving it unmatched firepower for a 20 tonner of the era. This is the variant that you would want as a front line combat unit. However, the -Nb and -N1 are probably the best of the bunch, and are probably among the best of the 20 tonner weight class. I think that's the real issue with the Thorn. It good for a 20 tonner, but it's still just a 20 tonner. Even going up to 25 tonne would let us upgrade the LRM-5 to an LRM-10 and add a half tonne of armour. Similarly, going up to 25 tonnes with a Locust would give us half a tonne to play with after maximizing the armour. I don't think that the Thorn is a bad mech, just one that is significantly held back by the choice of tonnage.
But the problem is that is was created to "Duke it out" when at 20 tons, it aint duking NOBODY except other light mechs, and it will get routed by other mechs in its class. Even adding more weight, the problem is that the commando and Puma exist, and do what its trying to do, but better. Sometimes you just gotta call a turd a turd and move on, if you have to literally rebuild the whole mech from the concept up...you might as well just make a new mech.
Thank you for having a more critical response, I hate that a lot of the Battletech community is quick to just say "yeah it sucks" and go back to hero hammer logic. I personally have the opinion that this mech is meant to be used in squads and larger formations; make them cheap and plentiful, doesn't matter if the enemy has a nice mech with an ace pilot if he's outnumbered twenty to one.
@@dolomaticus1180 It's not fair to compare it to the Puma/Adder. It's at the top of the light weight class, and it's a clan mech as well. I think that comparing the Commando (COM-2D) to the Thorn (THE-T) does illustrate my point: The commando has the same speed, comparable armour, but so much more firepower. There is just so little usable mass at 20 tonnes that even going up by just 5 tonnes results in a massive increase in performance, even with other 20 tonne designs. Now, The Thorn is definitely not the best or the worst of the 20 tonne mechs but it has comparable short range firepower, extremely good armour for it's weight and it can reach out the hit targets at much long ranges that other light mechs. It's similar to the STG-3G Stinger: 2 MLs is a lot of firepower on a 20 tonne mech, and even though it's damage is unreliable, the same is true of the LRM-5. The problem is that it just isn't enough when you start fighting heavier things. The best success I've had with the Thorn was during a silly match between a bunch of friends. Everyone took a lance of 20 tonne IS mechs from the clan invasion era (I can't remember if it was before or after TRO3067). I took a pair of Mercurys and a pair of Thorns. I did fairly well but I got luck with the initiative though. It was a big map too, with the intent being that we would be able to out maneuver each other with fast mechs, but only one other player took any mechs with LRMs, so I was able to keep the range open and wear them down with the Thorns before finishing with the Mercurys.
imho, lrm support makes sense for 20 ton mechs. long range and relatively decent damage for the weight of the weapons. Of course this assumes the pilots are smart enough to use their mobility to their LRM advantage.
Yes LRM's from multiple lights could make an effective tool. But a single LRM-5 is "just not enough difference, to make a difference" unless you have a full company of lights working in unison. And to do this you would need a C3 slave in every mech.
Another design I laughed at/face palmed when I read the description. The head mounted M-Laser causes excessive heat to flood the cockpit. So I thought MOVE IT. Surely it would be obvious in the design phase or when pilots tested the prototype not to mention its firing arc if very restricted.
Lore wise, there are some really questionable decisions across history. Can't recall the specific mech that has AC-20 ammo in the head. Maybe there's a valid reason for it, but... I'll just call it the Deathtrap.
@@richmcgee434 I guess i do design my Mechs as if they were real war machines and not just bits of paper. It's why most of mine are primarily energy weapon based and the few who do carry guns/missiles have plenty of ammo. NOT a fan of the redesigned Hunchback with it's 5 shots for the AC20, that was STUPID!!!! As for interwar aircraft, you have to consider the tech of the time, the bubble canopy was decades away and to enclose a cockpit would have required heavy framing which would have restricted the pilots vision. In WW1 vision was key to spotting the enemy.
My main memories of the Thorn are from the novel Ghost of Winter where one was the protagonist's initial Mech until it was destroyed and he stumbled onto a Clan Mech cache upgrading to a Vapor Eagle/Goshawk.
He's a good little boy. Two medium lasers is solid for it's weight class. The concept makes sense when you consider that perhaps Ford only had other lights like Bugs to measure against. A Thorn vs a Locust, Wasp, or Stinger? It has the upper hand. Too bad it doesn't go any further than that haha
@@BigRed40TECH, it’s strange how this is supposed to be such a ‘horrible’ design, but all of the ‘if you send it up against X it’ll get trashed’ comparisons involve Mechs 2-3 times its tonnage. That Hermes-II variant would get picked to pieces by a pair of Thorns (the same tonnage as the Hermes-II itself). Heck, elsewhere in the thread someone was pointing out that it would be decimated by a *longbow*. But that’s true of *any* light Mech in a one-on-one fight. Even a single Thorn could give the standard Hermes-II real run for its money.
If you are fighting other 20 ton mechs it is not bad. It lacks their mobility, but out guns them. It would be a great mech for convoy escort or for protecting rear assets you think are vulnerable to raiders.
Mercury yes, locust no. If will get one or two hits with the LRM 5, a hit with your medium laser will punch through to soft innards of a locust. The little LRM is a huge asset for poking, and having 2 medium lasers gives you a better chance of landing hits on fast moving targets.
So many bad Mechs seems like they could be really good in universe just not on the game table. The Thorn is a pretty good jack of all trades. A few of them with home field advantage could really screw up your day, particularly if they catch you in a pincher.
@@GliderBane to be fair the locust runs rings around the thorn and many of the variants kill it quite easily...even the wasp variant with the multiple small lasers is better than the thorn as the lrm 5 rarely hits the lights and rarely does the full damage if it does hit...plus with just standard medium lasers the thorn doesn't hit often enough to truly terrify mech with either more guns or better speed.
The slow speed puts the Thorn at a severe disadvantage compared to other light mechs. A competent Locust pilot will stay in cover anutil he is able to close into range of it´s own weapons. Even if you manage to get one or two LRM-5 hits on the Locust, it would not do any real harm to it. The Thorn is only useful as a support unit to other heavier fire-support mechs. It can do some harrassment fire with the LRM and provide some close cover to dedicated missile boats. In general I do not think that this is a design worth fielding.
Great video as always, Red. Wow, tell us how you really feel about Ford. ;) This was a great no-holds-barred review of a niche battlemech, and one that I personally never had much use for.
Always found it amusing how BattleTech uses real corporations as the manufacturers of units and their equipment. You could be driving a GM vehicle today and be like "hey, 700 years from now they made the BlackJack". It's surreal to hear Ford of all things making a fucking BattleMech. But hey, military industrial complex and all, right?
To be honest, I think the Thorn (at least in the initial variants) is a rudimentary attempt at the same concept ( lighter mechs that can still survive on the front-line) that would eventually lead to what are known now as Protomechs. Protomechs however, have the advantage of having equipment designed especially for the role, which helps to improve the overall ability to actually both survive and do damage on the battlefield. Not to mention that in the tabletop they also have special rules applied to them to help them achieve at least being a "viable" if not one of the better choices on the battlefield when you just don't have the tonnage to field a proper Battlemech.
How about the Capellan Gun GN-20 20 ton omni mech as far as what the thorn's original role? Bonus for being able to deliver Capellan BA like the Ying Long.
This mech actually has a nice weapons combination, LRMs with medium lasers. A lance of them working together they could be a great, highly mobile light artillery squad for harrassing the enemy while being capable of defending themself if someone closes in. However for this to work the lance really requires EXCELLENT cooperation.
I can see myself running this mech no problem, common tactic I like to do is have my lights flank the rear for the softer back armour while the heavy/assaults tanks the front. With the thorn it’ll certainly take less turns to chip off the back armour thanks to its extra fire power as lights typically lack that. It’s strength lies with the support of its Lance, to be a Thorn in the back of its enemy.
To be honest even that book it does a middling to just okay enough job in doing what they were using it for on the day to day basis, moving around crates in a warehouse.
That would be a massive pile of double heatsinks, endosteel, ferro fibrous, fusion engines, and advanced targeting and communication systems that would earn you a lot if you avoid the pitfalls of the lostech hunter.
Ah, yes, the Thorn. So many questions. Such as "why?" And "No, really, why?" Whenever I see this thing in the BTA3062 mod, I just feel bad for the OpFor.
It's fine as a light harrasser/scout. Won't set the world on fire but it can handle itself decently, especially if you pair it with other light mechs as a fire support.
My personal history flys in the face of those Ford memes. That said using a mech for “scouting” is hilarious. Almost as funny as the Steiners using Atlases for scouting.
The Thorn is a perfect example of the old saying "No matter how much you polish a turd, you still have nothing but shite on your hands when you're finished."
Honestly it seems like the designers should have just loaded it up with medium lasers. With five or six medium lasers it could match the outright firepower of a Jenner at almost half the tonnage. Then by operating in wolf packs of three to five and taking advantage of terrain to get close to their targets, using ambushes or fighting in cities, they could pose a serious threat to enemy recon lances or even single heavier mechs in isolated positions.
@@duncankelcey9281 In one of the Technical Readouts (the physical books that contained mech stats for the tabletop games), I *think* that this is explained as a cooling port or other maintenance-related structure. It’s often mistaken as a weapon, but it’s just there so technicians can hook stuff up to the mech for diagnostics, power, or other purposes.
Literally the Ford mustang electric crossover but in the 31st century. Or... a goblin that is so drunk on fungus beer he thinks he's in the future. They're equally effective, that is to say they arent.
I suppose Thorn would make a half-decent 'Mech for occupying garrison forces to hunt down resistance whose equipment is technicals like Mechanized Infantry and Flatbed Truck LRM variant.
You see a Valkyrie and it looks awesome, and fills a roll. You see this thing and say: "Hey, did yo mama have an affair with an anteater?" Amazing what 10 tons and a little anime-mecha stylin' can do.
The best thing you can use a stock Thorn for in my opinion, is laying down smoke at long range and keeping the Clan range to a minimum. Other than that pick a single Target for a lance of these things to chew on and don't let up unless there's an emergency somewhere else where they are needed. The idea is to constantly be a thorn in that one target side until it's either dead or it quits the field. To be honest, I would take an lrm carrier or two over one of these simply because of the immense Firepower and cheapness of the vehicles.
But if you were in universe, those LRM carriers are probably two to three person vehicles that move much slower then the Thorn. Great for defence, not so good if you have to move a hundred kilometres from your drop site and fight a battle there. The SRM carriers get there in two hours at max speed, the Thorns will get there in just over an hour at full speed. Sometimes speed is more important then firepower, because it doesn't matter if you have twenty times the firepower, if you can't get it into range to use it in time. So yeah, different tools for different jobs.
did the clans ever embrace the ultra light mech concept? since the conventional mechs seem to always be 2 - 2 1/2 tons away to accomplish their design goals. a clan design actually might.
The Clans have all sorts of OmniMechs in lighter weight brackets that have a nasty punch. Then there's the Protomechs, but... we don't talk about those. 😁
The 20-ton Dasher has 2 ERML and multiple SRM launchers... but for real abuse there's a variant that runs 5 ERML, a targeting computer, and a flamer. That's more firepower at full roar than an Awesome salvo!
It's a mech you throw your worst trainee in to give him some time in combat while not risking a real mech or him for that matter he can tickle other mechs and run the fuck away when someone notices him a d- mech for a d- student
Big Red throwing shade at Ford, both present and future...this is the way. I love mechs like this and the Charger as being designs that looked good on paper, but really found out that the reason no mech filled their role is that it's a terrible idea
The biggest problem in anything before the 3050 era is the lack of good ranged weapons for a light mech. At 20 tons your options are extremely limited. These days you can slap a light PPC on a mech and it can happily do a dance of death around your slow ponderous assault mech, stinging it to death if you're good enough. The only decent ranged weapon in this era is the Large Laser and its ER counterpart, which is a quarter of the weight of a 20-ton mech. Even the AC/2 is a whopping six tons with one one ton for ammo, you might as well get a PPC. So the only option left is an LRM. Light fire support mechs are only really viable at the far end 30-35 tons or make use of Clan LRM's. The Thorn had to be made with those limitations and the LRM5 is the only realistic option, at least they gave it a pair of medium lasers so it's still well-armed for a 20-tonner. Seen from a single mech perspective, it's nothing special, but four of them can be a threat to most light mechs and they can hurt mediums and heavier. Another issue is from the game design perspective, many mech designs are uninspired or revolve around any new tech introduced in the new Technical Readout. The 2750 one was meant to reflect centuries of new tech being gradually integrated into SLDF mechs and few of them have a substantial advantage over existing mechs because they are seen from a 3025 perspective with minor upgrades. By the time the Clan invasion rolls out their mechs are 75%+ advanced tech (they had to crank them down from the original playtest versions which were fully optimized.) and it's only their weird and quirky configs that give the Inner Sphere a slight break, with a ton of LB/2X and LB/5X and other popguns where there should have been an ER PPC or a Gauss Rifle. It's only in the Royal versions that the 2750 designs get many of the sharp edges filed off and come into their own. The Royal Thorn is a nice little energy boat that can keep enemy mechs at range and use a MASC to move out of a bad spot.
@@BigRed40TECH, the thorn can out-fight the commando, because by the time the commando closes range. The thorn has practically exhausted it’s LRM supply, and stripped most of the armor off the commando.
To make a successful 20 ton mech, it really needs to be fast. Lets try something silly. 20 ton frame, 200 Nisson XL engine is 4.5 tons, 2 tons of gyro. 3 tons of cockpit. Endosteel frame is 1 ton. 4.5 tons of armor. 5 tons left for 5 medium lasers. Oh, and double heat sinks. This thing walks 10 and fires 5 medium lasers, or it runs 20. It is as heavily armored as possible for the tonnage. Can be made with Starleague era technology. Could skimp on armor to introduce either a 6th medium laser to max out the heat efficiency of the engine's default 10 double heat sinks, or introduce stealth armor. Give the Royal variant the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield and the Null System armor.
Everything is easy when you play with the easy-mode gear. Standard-level (3020x era) tech leaves that design at 20.5 tons (out of 20) without any weapons.
The problem with the Thorn is that no one uses it correctly. It needs to be paired with either a Heavy or preferably an Assault mech with full manipulators on its arm. It then picks up the Thorn and uses it to beat the crap out of the opposing mech. Works more often than not, you'd be surprised.
I feel like that thorn should replace its left arm for a AC/2 or use the burst fire model and probably replace the LRM 5 to a SRM 4 or 6 for decent short range combat and also have alot of them use swarm tactics if they will still be used as a front line mech too
Hmm... the Thorn could be better a Civil Mech, for Mining or Fire Fighting. Sure, it won't using Industrial class heavy Armor, but with a second specialized Arm it would work quiete good I think. But for the Frontline... I don't think I would use it in a Light Lance. There I would use a Locust with 2 LRM 5s and one Med Laser for Support, and Pure Laser Locusts and the Standard Variant for scouting, or in combination with some other Designs. (Or I would use 2 LRM Locust in the back formation, and 2 Laser Locust, each with a TAG Laser instead of one small or med laser as scouts to enhance the Range. Would be good for hit and run tactics on light defended bases or so. The Thorn would be a "Thorn in the side" to this kind of Tactics, it would be too slow.)
It occurs to me that the Thorn might benefit from Hardened Armor and a Clan weapon refit. Ever since the CCG I've always thought of the Thorn as a complete and utter waste of resources.
My guess is they will drop the missiles for a light PPC, bump the lasers up to Ears and either go with a Clan XL or a Light engine to bump the speed. Keep the standard tactics, just beef it up a bit.
Anyone who thinks a 20-ton mech can be a front line unit needs to be slapped (and SHOULD). That said, give the N1 A ER large laser, medium laser, and jump jets and you got yourself a decent sniper in a 20-ton package.
A 20 ton front line mech? Sure. Works as well as a 100 ton SCOUT mech. At 20 tons you want it to be a scout, a harasser or long range support at best. At most I could see this as a good scout/raider hunter. Really, if you want a light brawler something like the Panther or Wolfhound is better. Hell, an Urbanmech would be a better brawler despite it's low speed.
Honestly, as a bad mech this isn't that bad. Like compared to a Charger it's at least usable. Or an Urbanmech with it's 5 minutes of operational time. And it's not like a Daboku and just has ammo falling out the back when someone breaths on it wrong. I think te weapon loadout is a bit weird though. Maybe slot in a large laser or something instead of that lrm 5. Probably would have been a better cop mech too. I don't know, for what it is 1.6 mill c-bills isn't bad. Would want a Commando personally but still, you could do worst.
As I mention in the video, it's not wholly useless, it's just built for a bad concept, and this hinders its usable in most other ways. It doesn't mean its whole-sale worthless. It's definitely better than the Urbanmech or Charger.
@@BigRed40TECH True but this feels more like someone tried to make a line mech and made a bad scout instead compared to the Charger where they went all in on making an 80 ton scout mech. Feels like if they wanted to do this, they should have dropped the engine more down to the 60-70 km/h range and give it more dakka/armor. Guess that's only a few tons to play with and is admittedly a horrible idea but in for a penny in for a pound. W8 drop the lrm 5 and engine you could have had 6 med lasers 🤩mini Nova!
“The Thorn.” Also known as “Reverse Charger.” Seriously “Assault that can Scout.” “Scout that can assault.” Both horrible ideas, but at least the Charger can punch down…kind of. Where exactly is the Thorn going to punch when it’s already at the bottom of the pile?
The Thorn... my favourite 'mech! I love this machi... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH GOTCHA I can put LRMs on my Javelin or SRMs on my Jenner, and those guys can fly. I can put MLs on my Spider (not that I'd take one) or... on the Jenner I already put the SRMs on. This one seems... unfocussed. I get the idea of range redundancy, but with this thing you're doing chip damage at each range. When you don't have the tonnage to play with, my take is that it's better to commit. Generally, I like short-range punch on fast and (relatively) tough lights; long range on the lighter-armoured or slower light 'mechs so that they can support and redeploy at distance. This guy seems like he'd be better at that latter, as you say - a sniper. This chap, at base, seems like an attempt to make a Swiss-army mech, with a bit of everything. Fine, I guess, but... ever taken a tank out with a Swiss army knife? Didn't think so. I guess it's not quite junk, but... there's better tools out there for the job.
I like lesser-known mechs like this that fail spectacularly at their intended role. With just a little bit of love, a little bit of elbow grease, (and a complete and utter refit of their internal systems in weapons packages) they can be remade to serve far more effectively!
Comstar proves this with the n1
This attitude right here is why i don't do stock mechs. I pick a mech for it's looks. Then gut it and max out armor. Toss in a couple jump jets now and then then put on enough fire power to head clip on an alpha strike and minimal heat build up for multiple alpha strikes.
I like the thorn overall, with considerable success. What it depends on is what it is used for. Between cost effectiveness, and skirmish/low scale battles. With urban areas, with forestry, with areas that have questionable terrain, I'd rather have this than a locust, or a comparable 20 to 25 tonner. And if used against vehicles and gun emplacements, the thorn's higher accuracy in combat due to its tendency to not only have a slower max speed, but also due to its slower speed altogether as more often one would keep it at cruising speeds, accompanying and supporting light tanks. The other aspect is not all battles are blitzkriegs. It's arm allows it to be able to go prone for long range fire with minimal return damage. In urban environments, I tend to use it like a hunchback against appropriately sized goes, and having the speed and yet the armor to both get away and successfully make those piloting rolls on slippery surfaces. Any more speed and it'd kill itself on the first slip up, like so many locusts do.
The Thorn is a great example of "Let's make it cheap and let's make it a mech". It's basically a "We can't afford to have a high-tech tank and want the flexibility of a mech", it seems.
Like mounting a machine gun on a Suzuki Samurai and calling it a "Combat Support ATV"... 😆
Then why wouldn’t you just go urban lol
@@danielmontgomery613 cause it's too slow to act as effectively in more open terrain. This thing stacks up much better against tanks than mechs lol.
The Thorn is actually very specifically designed for the Star League. The SLDF loved having Swiss army knife mechs. The Thorn was designed to at least try to punch above it's weight class. Everyone prioritizes the big stompy mechs. The Thorn? It's just a little guy. Nobody will notice it quietly in the backfield, popping off it's LRMs, then unloading everything else when the enemies get too close. Everyone always thinks of mechs as individuals; as heroes that can win wars alone. The Thorn is a solid line trooper. Instead of one Awesome, imagine a squad, or platoon of Thorns. The Thorn isn't meant to be a hero, it's meant to be an army. This role eventually went to the Urbanmech, but the Thorn did it better. They just didn't have the marketing or something.
Exactly.
How many Thorns can you build for the price of one Awesome, or Atlas?
@@patrickkenyon2326 A single Thorn is 1,653,120 c-bills. An Awesome is 6,598,170 c-bills. I have no idea if Sarna is accurate. I feel like it isn't, in this case. You would get 4 to 1. I think it'd probably be more like a dozen to one, cause that's typically how an Urbanmech comparison goes.
@@NemFX And 10 lights, or even 4, gives more battlefield versatility than 1 monster.
No matter how unstoppable it may be, it can't be in 4 places at once.
@@patrickkenyon2326 yep! Honestly having a squad of light mechs with long range weapons, even weak ones, can kite a stronger mech to death. Everyone looks down on the humble ac2, until you watch the Blackjack or a Rifleman cut down mechs who cant even get into range to shoot back. A pack of fast light mechs with long range attacks like that? An Atlas would eventually get overwhelmed, because it literally cannot close the distance
@@NemFX I had a King Crab, with 2 AC\20s.
It got eaten by little guys with Gauss Rifles and ATMs who I couldn't even see.
The thorn is the rogue character that chucks a pebble at the guard and gives em the raspberry before scampering off. :) Also I gotta call Ford and ask if they felt that burn!
Sturm Kintaro made decent use of this light 'mech during the opening of Ghost of Winter.
The Thorn. When you would rather deploy a star of elementals, but you aren't clan.
I think bog standard infantry would do lol
Maybe it’s just me, but a lot of the “slow” light mechs kind of appeal to me, even though a lot of the community views them as death traps. Mechs like the Panther, the Commando, and the Thorn all have good firepower for their weight bracket, they’re clearly intended for combat, as opposed to just scouting. I think I prefer them to a more “pure scout” like a Locust … which is annoyingly difficult to hit, but rarely can hurt anything.
I feel like these mechs do enough damage for their BV to pose a threat, but not so much damage that your opponent is actually incentivized to focus fire at them (unlike, say, a Jenner which is extremely deadly but WILL definitely draw a ton of fire it cannot take). These are maybe not great mechs, but they’re not as awful as people portray them as. They’re more like just a poor man’s version of a medium mech.
I do think they're not useless, but I just don't think it's a concept that works at 20-tons.
@@BigRed40TECH it's a concept the Adder and Cougar embody perfectly, the gunboat light
I've been wondering what my "Starter" mechs were going to be in my ATOW campaign. Now I cam give my players a real piece of... history... yeah history, to enjoy. FORD's only mech. Get 'em while they're hot.
0:28 oh my Lord, I haven't heard the found on road dead reference since the 90s, you are making me crack up here 😀😃😄.
I would have thought, that the DC should be in love with this concept. Hords of small Mechs rushing agsinst the enemy, unabel to retreat. That is just their style...
Even the DC would turn their noses at this thing lol
That's certainly one Drac officer's style. I imagine the Coordinator wasn't too happy with him afterward, though.
If it weren't for the expensive internals, it might have served as an okay garrison mech on lower priority worlds. Easy to source weapons plus a light chassis usually equals low maintenance/repair costs.
As the house army's started to reach parity with the star league. A higher tech garrison mech is needed. Using Endo steel is a good way to accomplish this.
For not that many more C-Bills I could just get a Commando. Which is a far more capable Mech with the same 6/9/0 movement profile.
Or an Urbanmech
Good god no - the Thorn is a far more effective mech than the Commando. I simply do not understand the notion that the Commando is a A tier mech - it's a badly designed deathtrap.
@@Ratkill9000 Upvote for Urbie!
I really think you are underestimating the Thorn. Sure, it is going to be out performed by heavier mechs, but that is true of all of the 20 tonners. 2 MLs is a solid close range firepower for a 20 tonner, and I think it compares favourly to the 2 MGs & ML on the stock Stinger & Locust and the ML & SRM-2 on the stock Wasp. There are Locust variants that bring more firepower to the table, in both a close range and support role, but they generally sacrifice so much armour that medium laser hits will tear off limbs. I feel like that Thorn makes a great part of a lance with the other 20 tonners. The Thorn can pepper the enemy with LRM fire during the approach, and hold the range as it's lancemates flank and screen the opponent before closing in to help deal a killing blow. I agree that the lack of jump jets is an issue, but I feel that attempting to fit them in would just cost too much on a 20 tonner; just look at the Hornet.
I think a lot of people would feel differently about the Thorn if the THE-T was the stock variant. It trades the LRM-5 for a SRM-4, giving it unmatched firepower for a 20 tonner of the era. This is the variant that you would want as a front line combat unit. However, the -Nb and -N1 are probably the best of the bunch, and are probably among the best of the 20 tonner weight class.
I think that's the real issue with the Thorn. It good for a 20 tonner, but it's still just a 20 tonner. Even going up to 25 tonne would let us upgrade the LRM-5 to an LRM-10 and add a half tonne of armour. Similarly, going up to 25 tonnes with a Locust would give us half a tonne to play with after maximizing the armour. I don't think that the Thorn is a bad mech, just one that is significantly held back by the choice of tonnage.
Oh I agree. It's just an issue that it's not 25 tons. It's 20 tons.
But the problem is that is was created to "Duke it out" when at 20 tons, it aint duking NOBODY except other light mechs, and it will get routed by other mechs in its class. Even adding more weight, the problem is that the commando and Puma exist, and do what its trying to do, but better. Sometimes you just gotta call a turd a turd and move on, if you have to literally rebuild the whole mech from the concept up...you might as well just make a new mech.
Thank you for having a more critical response, I hate that a lot of the Battletech community is quick to just say "yeah it sucks" and go back to hero hammer logic. I personally have the opinion that this mech is meant to be used in squads and larger formations; make them cheap and plentiful, doesn't matter if the enemy has a nice mech with an ace pilot if he's outnumbered twenty to one.
@@dolomaticus1180
It's not fair to compare it to the Puma/Adder. It's at the top of the light weight class, and it's a clan mech as well. I think that comparing the Commando (COM-2D) to the Thorn (THE-T) does illustrate my point: The commando has the same speed, comparable armour, but so much more firepower. There is just so little usable mass at 20 tonnes that even going up by just 5 tonnes results in a massive increase in performance, even with other 20 tonne designs.
Now, The Thorn is definitely not the best or the worst of the 20 tonne mechs but it has comparable short range firepower, extremely good armour for it's weight and it can reach out the hit targets at much long ranges that other light mechs. It's similar to the STG-3G Stinger: 2 MLs is a lot of firepower on a 20 tonne mech, and even though it's damage is unreliable, the same is true of the LRM-5. The problem is that it just isn't enough when you start fighting heavier things.
The best success I've had with the Thorn was during a silly match between a bunch of friends. Everyone took a lance of 20 tonne IS mechs from the clan invasion era (I can't remember if it was before or after TRO3067). I took a pair of Mercurys and a pair of Thorns. I did fairly well but I got luck with the initiative though. It was a big map too, with the intent being that we would be able to out maneuver each other with fast mechs, but only one other player took any mechs with LRMs, so I was able to keep the range open and wear them down with the Thorns before finishing with the Mercurys.
@@michaelmills8205 I meant to say panther, not puma. Dont know why I mixed those two up. I will answer you back later when I am home.
imho, lrm support makes sense for 20 ton mechs. long range and relatively decent damage for the weight of the weapons. Of course this assumes the pilots are smart enough to use their mobility to their LRM advantage.
Yes LRM's from multiple lights could make an effective tool. But a single LRM-5 is "just not enough difference, to make a difference" unless you have a full company of lights working in unison. And to do this you would need a C3 slave in every mech.
Another design I laughed at/face palmed when I read the description. The head mounted M-Laser causes excessive heat to flood the cockpit. So I thought MOVE IT.
Surely it would be obvious in the design phase or when pilots tested the prototype not to mention its firing arc if very restricted.
Lore wise, there are some really questionable decisions across history. Can't recall the specific mech that has AC-20 ammo in the head. Maybe there's a valid reason for it, but... I'll just call it the Deathtrap.
@@richmcgee434 No effect in game, true, but I was thinking more as a designer of a real war machine, not a game. Guess I have a military mind set.
@@richmcgee434 I guess i do design my Mechs as if they were real war machines and not just bits of paper. It's why most of mine are primarily energy weapon based and the few who do carry guns/missiles have plenty of ammo. NOT a fan of the redesigned Hunchback with it's 5 shots for the AC20, that was STUPID!!!!
As for interwar aircraft, you have to consider the tech of the time, the bubble canopy was decades away and to enclose a cockpit would have required heavy framing which would have restricted the pilots vision. In WW1 vision was key to spotting the enemy.
08:30 Must be a powerfull gyro to keep the mech upright with a left arm that large and heavy.
My main memories of the Thorn are from the novel Ghost of Winter where one was the protagonist's initial Mech until it was destroyed and he stumbled onto a Clan Mech cache upgrading to a Vapor Eagle/Goshawk.
He's a good little boy. Two medium lasers is solid for it's weight class. The concept makes sense when you consider that perhaps Ford only had other lights like Bugs to measure against. A Thorn vs a Locust, Wasp, or Stinger? It has the upper hand. Too bad it doesn't go any further than that haha
Thorn decides to throw hands with a HemesII-M, it's gonna be a tragedy. lol
@@BigRed40TECH, it’s strange how this is supposed to be such a ‘horrible’ design, but all of the ‘if you send it up against X it’ll get trashed’ comparisons involve Mechs 2-3 times its tonnage.
That Hermes-II variant would get picked to pieces by a pair of Thorns (the same tonnage as the Hermes-II itself).
Heck, elsewhere in the thread someone was pointing out that it would be decimated by a *longbow*. But that’s true of *any* light Mech in a one-on-one fight.
Even a single Thorn could give the standard Hermes-II real run for its money.
@@Vessekx Commando mauls the Thorn.
Wanted to love this thing so much when I saw it in the card game.
That art is fantastic!
If you are fighting other 20 ton mechs it is not bad. It lacks their mobility, but out guns them. It would be a great mech for convoy escort or for protecting rear assets you think are vulnerable to raiders.
I think the locust and mercury are extremely dangerous to it.
Mercury yes, locust no. If will get one or two hits with the LRM 5, a hit with your medium laser will punch through to soft innards of a locust. The little LRM is a huge asset for poking, and having 2 medium lasers gives you a better chance of landing hits on fast moving targets.
So many bad Mechs seems like they could be really good in universe just not on the game table.
The Thorn is a pretty good jack of all trades. A few of them with home field advantage could really screw up your day, particularly if they catch you in a pincher.
@@GliderBane to be fair the locust runs rings around the thorn and many of the variants kill it quite easily...even the wasp variant with the multiple small lasers is better than the thorn as the lrm 5 rarely hits the lights and rarely does the full damage if it does hit...plus with just standard medium lasers the thorn doesn't hit often enough to truly terrify mech with either more guns or better speed.
The slow speed puts the Thorn at a severe disadvantage compared to other light mechs. A competent Locust pilot will stay in cover anutil he is able to close into range of it´s own weapons. Even if you manage to get one or two LRM-5 hits on the Locust, it would not do any real harm to it.
The Thorn is only useful as a support unit to other heavier fire-support mechs. It can do some harrassment fire with the LRM and provide some close cover to dedicated missile boats. In general I do not think that this is a design worth fielding.
Great video as always, Red. Wow, tell us how you really feel about Ford. ;) This was a great no-holds-barred review of a niche battlemech, and one that I personally never had much use for.
Always found it amusing how BattleTech uses real corporations as the manufacturers of units and their equipment. You could be driving a GM vehicle today and be like "hey, 700 years from now they made the BlackJack".
It's surreal to hear Ford of all things making a fucking BattleMech. But hey, military industrial complex and all, right?
The M1 battle tank is a Chevy.
It also makes their lawyer's lives fun: See a certain popular Btech youtuber and "GM's Okayest Product" in the Blackjack.
You had me laughing inside of 30 seconds well done
Same.
Ol Henry was a terrible man.
Fuggem
To be honest, I think the Thorn (at least in the initial variants) is a rudimentary attempt at the same concept ( lighter mechs that can still survive on the front-line) that would eventually lead to what are known now as Protomechs.
Protomechs however, have the advantage of having equipment designed especially for the role, which helps to improve the overall ability to actually both survive and do damage on the battlefield.
Not to mention that in the tabletop they also have special rules applied to them to help them achieve at least being a "viable" if not one of the better choices on the battlefield when you just don't have the tonnage to field a proper Battlemech.
How about the Capellan Gun GN-20 20 ton omni mech as far as what the thorn's original role? Bonus for being able to deliver Capellan BA like the Ying Long.
I love how it looks like the cockpit has a little cigarette to puff on
I'd smoke too, if I were a Thorn. I'm not gonna live long enough to suffer the consequences of the cigarette anyway, afterall. XD
its a shame that this is the ONLY mech that Ford has ever made in universe :(
Consider this the Pinto of the Battletech Universe. Clearly they learned nothing in 500 years.
@@Ratkill9000 What does this make Urbie?
Battletech is team GM apparently
This mech actually has a nice weapons combination, LRMs with medium lasers.
A lance of them working together they could be a great, highly mobile light artillery squad for harrassing the enemy while being capable of defending themself if someone closes in.
However for this to work the lance really requires EXCELLENT cooperation.
I can see myself running this mech no problem, common tactic I like to do is have my lights flank the rear for the softer back armour while the heavy/assaults tanks the front. With the thorn it’ll certainly take less turns to chip off the back armour thanks to its extra fire power as lights typically lack that. It’s strength lies with the support of its Lance, to be a Thorn in the back of its enemy.
First heard of this mech from the novel "ghosts of winter"
To be honest even that book it does a middling to just okay enough job in doing what they were using it for on the day to day basis, moving around crates in a warehouse.
I JUST checked to see if this was out like 30 minutes ago.
Been a bit of a busy day, but I got it done. :)
So after all that fighting you finally find the time to open the star league depot. Inside it you do find mechs, but they're all of the same type...
This is cruel lol
That would be a massive pile of double heatsinks, endosteel, ferro fibrous, fusion engines, and advanced targeting and communication systems that would earn you a lot if you avoid the pitfalls of the lostech hunter.
Could be worse, could be a cache of Amaris Jackrabits
@@BlUsKrEEm Sell the streak systems to the NAIS and make a good chunk of change.
Ah, yes, the Thorn. So many questions. Such as "why?" And "No, really, why?"
Whenever I see this thing in the BTA3062 mod, I just feel bad for the OpFor.
It's fine as a light harrasser/scout. Won't set the world on fire but it can handle itself decently, especially if you pair it with other light mechs as a fire support.
My personal history flys in the face of those Ford memes. That said using a mech for “scouting” is hilarious. Almost as funny as the Steiners using Atlases for scouting.
My Ford Focus is a thorn…a thorn in my side!
The thorn was to the terrains too lol
The Thorn is a perfect example of the old saying
"No matter how much you polish a turd, you still have nothing but shite on your hands when you're finished."
Honestly it seems like the designers should have just loaded it up with medium lasers. With five or six medium lasers it could match the outright firepower of a Jenner at almost half the tonnage. Then by operating in wolf packs of three to five and taking advantage of terrain to get close to their targets, using ambushes or fighting in cities, they could pose a serious threat to enemy recon lances or even single heavier mechs in isolated positions.
Anyone else confused why the portrait shows an srm6 in the right shoulder but doesn't actually have it?
It's an LRM5, or MML7.
The arm maybe is but I did see a 6 rack between the arm and the cockpit
5:25 as reference
@@duncankelcey9281 In one of the Technical Readouts (the physical books that contained mech stats for the tabletop games), I *think* that this is explained as a cooling port or other maintenance-related structure. It’s often mistaken as a weapon, but it’s just there so technicians can hook stuff up to the mech for diagnostics, power, or other purposes.
@@cobalt968 ah tracking that makes sense
I actually always liked this thing. Just needs a LEEEEETLE bit of tweaking.
Thorn wishes aegis.
Strange lights by scary mountains. What king cannot see, it cannot kill.
Literally the Ford mustang electric crossover but in the 31st century. Or... a goblin that is so drunk on fungus beer he thinks he's in the future. They're equally effective, that is to say they arent.
The Thorn joins other gems from Ford like the Bronco, Mustang II, Expidition and the Edsel.
I suppose Thorn would make a half-decent 'Mech for occupying garrison forces to hunt down resistance whose equipment is technicals like Mechanized Infantry and Flatbed Truck LRM variant.
You see a Valkyrie and it looks awesome, and fills a roll.
You see this thing and say: "Hey, did yo mama have an affair with an anteater?"
Amazing what 10 tons and a little anime-mecha stylin' can do.
The Thorn is the starting grounds for great pilots... Said nobody ever
All those great pilots died in that Thorn. XD
I was cleaning out my house and found a 1996 ral Partha catalog. With 4 pages of mechs, planes, tanks, and infantry.
The best thing you can use a stock Thorn for in my opinion, is laying down smoke at long range and keeping the Clan range to a minimum.
Other than that pick a single Target for a lance of these things to chew on and don't let up unless there's an emergency somewhere else where they are needed.
The idea is to constantly be a thorn in that one target side until it's either dead or it quits the field.
To be honest, I would take an lrm carrier or two over one of these simply because of the immense Firepower and cheapness of the vehicles.
But if you were in universe, those LRM carriers are probably two to three person vehicles that move much slower then the Thorn. Great for defence, not so good if you have to move a hundred kilometres from your drop site and fight a battle there. The SRM carriers get there in two hours at max speed, the Thorns will get there in just over an hour at full speed.
Sometimes speed is more important then firepower, because it doesn't matter if you have twenty times the firepower, if you can't get it into range to use it in time.
So yeah, different tools for different jobs.
did the clans ever embrace the ultra light mech concept? since the conventional mechs seem to always be 2 - 2 1/2 tons away to accomplish their design goals. a clan design actually might.
I dunno tbh
The Clans have all sorts of OmniMechs in lighter weight brackets that have a nasty punch. Then there's the Protomechs, but... we don't talk about those. 😁
The 20-ton Dasher has 2 ERML and multiple SRM launchers... but for real abuse there's a variant that runs 5 ERML, a targeting computer, and a flamer. That's more firepower at full roar than an Awesome salvo!
@@jonbezeau3124 At least call it by its proper name, Freebirth. 🤣
@@WolfHreda, you mean target practice?
Is the THE-Nb the anchestor of the Clan 30 ton Incubus 1/2?
Maybe.
It's a mech you throw your worst trainee in to give him some time in combat while not risking a real mech or him for that matter he can tickle other mechs and run the fuck away when someone notices him a d- mech for a d- student
What do you get when you read Ford in the mirror? Driver returns on foot!
Happens in the 25th century forward too
Did FORD put their 6.0 Diesel engine in these mechs?
0:28 did Big Red have a bad experience with a Ford 😀😀😄😃😀😀?????
Apparently the whole hegemony did at some point
This looks like a job for the Light PPC!
Get a capacitor in there too O.O
I don't think it's any coincidence that Ford Military Limited I'd abbreviated as FML.
Every Thorn pilot says that when the enemy Warhammer emerges on the other side the field! XD
Big Red throwing shade at Ford, both present and future...this is the way. I love mechs like this and the Charger as being designs that looked good on paper, but really found out that the reason no mech filled their role is that it's a terrible idea
The biggest problem in anything before the 3050 era is the lack of good ranged weapons for a light mech. At 20 tons your options are extremely limited. These days you can slap a light PPC on a mech and it can happily do a dance of death around your slow ponderous assault mech, stinging it to death if you're good enough.
The only decent ranged weapon in this era is the Large Laser and its ER counterpart, which is a quarter of the weight of a 20-ton mech. Even the AC/2 is a whopping six tons with one one ton for ammo, you might as well get a PPC. So the only option left is an LRM.
Light fire support mechs are only really viable at the far end 30-35 tons or make use of Clan LRM's.
The Thorn had to be made with those limitations and the LRM5 is the only realistic option, at least they gave it a pair of medium lasers so it's still well-armed for a 20-tonner.
Seen from a single mech perspective, it's nothing special, but four of them can be a threat to most light mechs and they can hurt mediums and heavier.
Another issue is from the game design perspective, many mech designs are uninspired or revolve around any new tech introduced in the new Technical Readout. The 2750 one was meant to reflect centuries of new tech being gradually integrated into SLDF mechs and few of them have a substantial advantage over existing mechs because they are seen from a 3025 perspective with minor upgrades. By the time the Clan invasion rolls out their mechs are 75%+ advanced tech (they had to crank them down from the original playtest versions which were fully optimized.) and it's only their weird and quirky configs that give the Inner Sphere a slight break, with a ton of LB/2X and LB/5X and other popguns where there should have been an ER PPC or a Gauss Rifle.
It's only in the Royal versions that the 2750 designs get many of the sharp edges filed off and come into their own. The Royal Thorn is a nice little energy boat that can keep enemy mechs at range and use a MASC to move out of a bad spot.
Huzzah for 20 ton assault mechs.
Another great Battletech video.
Glad you enjoyed it
Gonna be real. All those disappointed Thorn customers should have noticed the red flags when they heard “20 tons” and “frontline.”
They have rights as consumers Halosammy14!
I find it interesting that this mech was considered a failure but the commando was considered a successful scout.
The Commando can outfight it because it doesn't split assets between 2 range brackets, and one it will rarely use.
@@BigRed40TECH, the thorn can out-fight the commando, because by the time the commando closes range. The thorn has practically exhausted it’s LRM supply, and stripped most of the armor off the commando.
To make a successful 20 ton mech, it really needs to be fast. Lets try something silly. 20 ton frame, 200 Nisson XL engine is 4.5 tons, 2 tons of gyro. 3 tons of cockpit. Endosteel frame is 1 ton. 4.5 tons of armor. 5 tons left for 5 medium lasers. Oh, and double heat sinks. This thing walks 10 and fires 5 medium lasers, or it runs 20. It is as heavily armored as possible for the tonnage. Can be made with Starleague era technology. Could skimp on armor to introduce either a 6th medium laser to max out the heat efficiency of the engine's default 10 double heat sinks, or introduce stealth armor. Give the Royal variant the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield and the Null System armor.
Everything is easy when you play with the easy-mode gear. Standard-level (3020x era) tech leaves that design at 20.5 tons (out of 20) without any weapons.
Hey! Ford has made plenty of good vehicles, like the...um...okay, I'll have to get back to you on this topic, but I know examples are out there.
I am looking forward to when he gets around to the Anubis.
Anubis is getting covered this year, as per voted by the members for when I cover some Dark Age configs.
Sick!
Thank you
Hmm. If they replaced the lasers and LRM 5 with a large laser... Wait that's a variant (sort of)
Huh, a mech I've never heard of, neat.
The rose was discontinued because it takes forever to grow.
Periphery-worthy if I ever saw it
The Periphery would be insulted.
The problem with the Thorn is that no one uses it correctly. It needs to be paired with either a Heavy or preferably an Assault mech with full manipulators on its arm. It then picks up the Thorn and uses it to beat the crap out of the opposing mech. Works more often than not, you'd be surprised.
We renamed it the Club.
@@BigRed40TECH Piloted by Billy
Maybe it could be useful in Solaris matches against other light mechs? of course,swapping out the LRM would be necessary for this
Say what you want about Ford, on each product they sell, they did helpfully circle the cause of the problems.
And thank goodness for that. Someone had to!
My discord has a running theory that Megamek hates Thorns. It seems no mech is unluckier than the Thorn
I mean, it's a Ford. Luck is never with it. ;)
Almost as savage as the live stream chat! What did Ford do to you? Did a Ford driver steal your ex?
No, but Ford keeps making vehicles to this day.
Well, it's the same design principle that birthed the Panther and Cougar. Sometimes you just need a cheap, tough piece of cannon fodder.
Panthers pretty okay tho
@@BigRed40TECH booooooo hisss panther
Guess the Pinto has company
Worst mistake of Thorn, not being Hatamoto-Chi.
💯
I feel like that thorn should replace its left arm for a AC/2 or use the burst fire model and probably replace the LRM 5 to a SRM 4 or 6 for decent short range combat and also have alot of them use swarm tactics if they will still be used as a front line mech too
So you mean to tell me this mech was built Ford tough with Chevy parts?
Light fire suport the mech
Hmm... the Thorn could be better a Civil Mech, for Mining or Fire Fighting.
Sure, it won't using Industrial class heavy Armor, but with a second specialized Arm it would work quiete good I think.
But for the Frontline... I don't think I would use it in a Light Lance. There I would use a Locust with 2 LRM 5s and one Med Laser for Support, and Pure Laser Locusts and the Standard Variant for scouting, or in combination with some other Designs.
(Or I would use 2 LRM Locust in the back formation, and 2 Laser Locust, each with a TAG Laser instead of one small or med laser as scouts to enhance the Range. Would be good for hit and run tactics on light defended bases or so. The Thorn would be a "Thorn in the side" to this kind of Tactics, it would be too slow.)
So the thorn is lot like the M4 Sherman, shit the Sherman is 10 tons heavier but share the views/treatment towards the vehicle in question
Okay as long as your opponent consists solely of infantry
It occurs to me that the Thorn might benefit from Hardened Armor and a Clan weapon refit.
Ever since the CCG I've always thought of the Thorn as a complete and utter waste of resources.
We will see something for it when it gets a new model I suspect
My guess is they will drop the missiles for a light PPC, bump the lasers up to Ears and either go with a Clan XL or a Light engine to bump the speed. Keep the standard tactics, just beef it up a bit.
The Thorn is the rare example of a mech as silly design and mechanics wise as it looks.
Anyone who thinks a 20-ton mech can be a front line unit needs to be slapped (and SHOULD). That said, give the N1 A ER large laser, medium laser, and jump jets and you got yourself a decent sniper in a 20-ton package.
Gonna take a wild guess that Big Red drives a Chevy. ;-)
Toyota. lol
*laughs in Elemental*
A 20 ton front line mech? Sure. Works as well as a 100 ton SCOUT mech.
At 20 tons you want it to be a scout, a harasser or long range support at best. At most I could see this as a good scout/raider hunter. Really, if you want a light brawler something like the Panther or Wolfhound is better. Hell, an Urbanmech would be a better brawler despite it's low speed.
Honestly, as a bad mech this isn't that bad. Like compared to a Charger it's at least usable. Or an Urbanmech with it's 5 minutes of operational time. And it's not like a Daboku and just has ammo falling out the back when someone breaths on it wrong. I think te weapon loadout is a bit weird though. Maybe slot in a large laser or something instead of that lrm 5. Probably would have been a better cop mech too. I don't know, for what it is 1.6 mill c-bills isn't bad. Would want a Commando personally but still, you could do worst.
As I mention in the video, it's not wholly useless, it's just built for a bad concept, and this hinders its usable in most other ways. It doesn't mean its whole-sale worthless. It's definitely better than the Urbanmech or Charger.
@@BigRed40TECH True but this feels more like someone tried to make a line mech and made a bad scout instead compared to the Charger where they went all in on making an 80 ton scout mech. Feels like if they wanted to do this, they should have dropped the engine more down to the 60-70 km/h range and give it more dakka/armor. Guess that's only a few tons to play with and is admittedly a horrible idea but in for a penny in for a pound. W8 drop the lrm 5 and engine you could have had 6 med lasers 🤩mini Nova!
Trying not winning but trying
XD
Fix or repair daily. lol
Good.
Very good
Why would you look at a Locust and think "I bet I could make that a front line brawler"?
Because.
The Locust beats an Atlas in melee whether you go by BV, Tonnage, or C-Bills.
“The Thorn.” Also known as “Reverse Charger.”
Seriously “Assault that can Scout.”
“Scout that can assault.”
Both horrible ideas, but at least the Charger can punch down…kind of. Where exactly is the Thorn going to punch when it’s already at the bottom of the pile?
Can't say that I like it. I think 5 tons more would have had it better, more options to work with.
Still better than a stock Assassin.
The Thorn... my favourite 'mech! I love this machi...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH GOTCHA
I can put LRMs on my Javelin or SRMs on my Jenner, and those guys can fly. I can put MLs on my Spider (not that I'd take one) or... on the Jenner I already put the SRMs on. This one seems... unfocussed. I get the idea of range redundancy, but with this thing you're doing chip damage at each range. When you don't have the tonnage to play with, my take is that it's better to commit. Generally, I like short-range punch on fast and (relatively) tough lights; long range on the lighter-armoured or slower light 'mechs so that they can support and redeploy at distance. This guy seems like he'd be better at that latter, as you say - a sniper.
This chap, at base, seems like an attempt to make a Swiss-army mech, with a bit of everything. Fine, I guess, but... ever taken a tank out with a Swiss army knife?
Didn't think so. I guess it's not quite junk, but... there's better tools out there for the job.
Ah-nah-STAY-zee-us......for what it's worth