Apple Is Trying to Kill the Open Internet!
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- Опубліковано 20 лют 2024
- Apple is trying to kill the open internet by killing progressive web apps (PWAs) in the EU! This has come unexpectedly with 0 notice in the iOS 17.4 development beta and has negative implications for the internet as a whole. Here's why we need to speak up and take action! Help stop this before it spreads to other areas around the world.
There's now an open letter-sign while you still can: letter.open-web-advocacy.org/
Open Web Advocacy: open-web-advocacy.org/
Open Web Advocacy Blog Post: open-web-advocacy.org/blog/it...
EU DMA, First Dropdown: digital-markets-act.ec.europa...
Chromium Site Isolation: www.chromium.org/Home/chromiu...
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#apple #apps #eu #safari - Наука та технологія
I try to avoid needless outrage over issues that don't deserve outrage-but this isn't one of them! These moves start with the EU and can expand everywhere overnight. No matter where you are, if you use *any* web apps with developers based in the EU, your software will be impacted by this as well regardless of you residing in the EU. (As John explains) Take action now:
There's now an open letter-sign while you still can: letter.open-web-advocacy.org/
Open Web Advocacy: open-web-advocacy.org/
Open Web Advocacy Blog Post: open-web-advocacy.org/blog/its-official-apple-kills-web-apps-in-the-eu/
EU DMA, First Dropdown: digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/about-dma/questions-and-answers_en#:~:text=How%20to%20get%20in%20touch,%40ec.europa.eu
Hmh, mister Rossmann, might want to hear about this.
Outraged is deserved because Apple is even lying about the reasons. Developers know this is BS.
They want to force developers into their app store. Developers are fleeing Apple's app store to the web, like someone trying to escape a country with a dictatorship to one with democracy, Apple decides to close its borders to avoid them from escaping.
I would not be surprised if Apple actually removes PWA's worldwide in the future, as even internal emails leaked from Apple say that web apps pose a threat to their 30% app store income.
This is all so ridiculous. We shouldn’t be using the force of government to tell private corps how to make their products. It’s up to end-users to decide whether or not they want an iPhone. Disappointed to see this kind of violently statist content here.
Very convenient to forget the part, that the society is so easily manipulated, especially by the ultra competitive entities that are driven purely by profit. What could go wrong, if we let them do their thing? Nothing, that is, practically a law of nature. s/ @@ChrisB123
@@ChrisB123 So you prefer corporatism to statism. Interesting.
As a Mac user, I really want to see Apple get humbled a bit.
You know what’s weird is that Sonoma’s web app implementation is actually incredible!
Quick somebody tell Louis Rossmann!
I'm looking forward to hearing him say "f*** you Apple!"
Apple is just throwing a tantrum over being forced to open their OS. Funny how it’s okay for macOS to be open, but guess not iOS
The big money is in iPhones
iPhones are popular because they're locked down.
@@lazyhominidthey’re popular because they’re simple and easy to use, not because they’re locked down
I think there is a concern that you end up with an App Store with lots of poor quality and malicious apps like on android.
@@lazyhominid they are popular in North America primarily because of whole lot of lobbying, getting schools to get apple products, etc etc causing a lot of people only knowing apple ecosystem. This along with clever marketing gave them a cult brand loyalty status. People in NA are psychotic about iphones. No one outside NA even knows what blue and green bubbles are.
Apple being control freaks no surprises there, apples built on control, more reasons to stay android and linux operating systems.
Hii, I was thinking to chance of Windows to Linux for more privacy, Is there a relevante difference?
@@maritsux9985much better than Windows. Less getting spied by OEMs and Microsoft.
less bloatware for sure.@@maritsux9985
I'm a Linux beginner so I can't go into detail but Microsoft since Windows 10 has been harvesting data, and the operating system being closed source means we cannot be sure what they send. Linux is open source so everyone works together to make it and tons of eyes are on it, so it's good from a privacy point. It's also not owned by a big tech company and many of them have been collecting data off people.
@@maritsux9985Start with using FOSS software on Windows (GIMP, LibreOffice, etc) and non-Microsoft apps. Stuff people would typically use on Linux. Maybe even run Linux in a VM for a bit if you have the horsepower. I wouldn't recommend a full jump until you're comfortable. Also, if you're signed into a M$ account on your machine, create a new local account and use that instead.
im so ready for a 1.5 hour rant about this by louis rossman
I'm looking forward to hearing him say "f*** you Apple!"
He's a narcissist
This is why I will never buy an iPhone and am hoping for linux phones to become more convenient and usable for day to day use. No company should be able to decide what their users can and cannot do on such a fundamental piece of technology. Phones and laptops have become the backbone of our modern life, and we should be able to choose what to do with them. So I'll vote with my wallet, and I'm seriously thinking of buying an android tablet for my next one too (though buying a refurbished iPad doesn't give any money to Apple either, so not sure yet).
OEMs should provide drivers for each device
Linux phones will never ever take off, just use a privacy focused custom rom
I mean, technically, Android is based on Linux, meaning android is a linux phone@@kongstrong88
A refurbished iPad still gives Apple control over what a user can & cannot do with it.
@@kongstrong88 Maybe you are right. I'm still hopeful, with devices such as the steam deck giving more visibility to it, and Windows and Apple being called out more and more for their bullshit (though not yet enough).
Nobody knows what the future holds, and I'll definitely do my best to contribute to promote user freedom, among other things. It's only if and when we all stop caring that all is lost.
This is why monopolies are bad as more and more people switch to iPhone.
PWAs are awesome for so many reasons like better sandboxing and less storage space used, and this is just so needlessly hostile. :/
The reason to remove is that apple do not want to bother building a needed sandboxing features and apis that would let third party browsers support them. And the DMA laws from the EU mean that if apple supports them they must build those apis so the solution is to drop support for them and thus not need to build the apis that ensure that third party browsers are properly sandboxed when running PWAs.
I can’t wait until I can get a pixel and stop using apple.
I was an Apple user from the introduction of the iMac until 2012 although I never had an iphone. I became increasingly frustrated with the lack of choice in how I wanted my OS to look & the increasing ways that I was locked in on certain programs like iTunes & iPhoto. The restrictions Apple put on their users got too much for me & I jumped ship to Linux & have never regretted it. It's sad to see the company become so hostile to it's users, I can't imagine Jobs would have gone this far in asserting the company's role over what the users can do on its products. It's a real shame, they were a cool company when I started with them in the 90's.
Man you have no idea how I'm waiting for more Asahi Linux updates so I can finally use it as my main OS
@@user-nu1lb2qu2x I buy used Thinkpads & install Linux on those but if you already have new Apple hardware Asahi looks promising. I don't follow Apple news but every now & again I see something & I just can't believe what they are doing, this stuff can't be good for long-term business.
People need to stand against such actions from these tech giants that want to monopolise technology.
Everyone should drop Apple
Sometimes this is just not an option: I work at school with many PWAs and I have to use what the students bring along: iPhone, android Tablet, windows pc, …
Therefore PWAs are the only (fair) solution for educational purposes.
I'm all for pwa, not down with Apple at all. Overprice hardware nobody should encourage them, if nothing on iphone, nobody's gonna buy it.
Sweet. Finally an excuse to drop Apple
If I were a developer, I'd find a way to make my PWA to detect if it's running in safari, then make it display a banner that links to this video so users know it's Apple >=]
u see the world is fucked up when europe is being the good guy lately
0:10 completely off-topic, but that man looks and sounds exactly like what I would have expected Anton Chigurh to look and sound like if he had been a software development instead of a hitman!
How much have you ever lost on a server crash?
@@iboofer Don't put it in your nas. It's your off-site backup.
...Where you want me to put it?
Anywhere not in your nas. Or it will get mixed with the others and become just a mirror. Which it is.
As my web dev friend has said for years, Safari is the new Internet Explorer
The worse smh
It's all going a bit pear shape for Apple 😅
I'm thinking this will bite them back.
People who do things different will now look at Apple stuff/apps/code/hardware to see how they can make their own mods to achieve success in using the devices as they want..
Aka the real hackers,
that don't follow the commonly public line on how to aproach "hacking".
Rule one! ANYTHING can be hacked..
You can do one more thing, switch to Android so Apple stop this insanity
And then drop Android so no one can annoy us anymore.
Scylla or Charybdis?
Ios is the only one gaining market share
I think the steelmaning of the security claim is that if Apple allowed PWAs they would be required to allow any browser to implement pwas and they can't gaurenteed that the other browsers would implement them securely, and that could impact apples reputation if there's a bug in another browser besides safari. The other reason could be that it would take engineering time to support other browsers being able to support pwas, and it would take time to code that securely so they are just axing it for now. I'm not sure if or by what date they are being forced to support pwas in all browsers. That's just my random thoughts
But we have even clearer examples of apple being anticompetitive with the app store for instance there malicious compliance of allowing third party app stores as required (still charging 27% fee plus per download fee, making these app stores unviable). So I wouldn't give them much benefit of the doubt in this case
You are wrong, firstly, Apple is not doing this for security reasons, secondly, implementing PWA in a browser is not for everyone, currently only browsers based on Chromium, Firefox and Safari support PWA, that is, the devs who If you want to create browsers with PWA support on iOS, you will have to use engines from Apple, Chrome or Firefox, and they have PWA implemented safely.
Good video, I'll share it..
I've been looking into buying a new phone in the past few months. I'm not in a hurry, but ever since the announcement that 3rd Party (Store) Apps will be allowed on an Apple device I decided to stick with Apple. Now this puts me on a rollercoaster. I guess I'll still switch theo Android... Thanks for the good video and explanations!
I was gonna continue using my iPhone 13 but after this fiasco i'm definitely switching back to Android
Apple reverted their decision.
Great job John and thanks for getting this out there Henry- it was a successful campaign and Apple has reverted the decision and will continue to allow PWAs in the EU. Victory!
Does this affect the UK???
This is bad, but honestly what do you expect you are using an iPhone.
Open source extremism does not go far enough.
Well, if you're calling it "*open source* extremism", you're not extreme enough. Free software extremism or bust! Grow a beard and donate to GNU and the FSF!
("Software Libre" is also acceptable)
@preflex3502 You don't have to be Richard Stallman to love OpenSource
@@c13rmusic Considering that Stallman doesn't love open source, that makes sense.
"This is bad, but honestly what do you expect you are using an iPhone."
This is gate keeping. Most people have a need to balance privacy and being practical and efficient in their life. And iOS can be a good secure choice for people if it corresponds with their needs and threat model. Please consider watching the techlore video about gate keeping. Being nice goes a long way. It will come back to you in one way or another.
@@Merope4everthat had nothing to do with apple being a dick here. Perhaps apple should be nicer?
That's why I don't use Apple products, at all.
Fine them €500 billion already 😊😊
I’m incredibly dissapointed I didn’t watch this video before updating to 17.4 beta 3. Invidious is ruined for me.
they already killed it with the smartphone "invention"
eh if it has a website I prefer to use a website than a PWA, but whatever I don't even own any devices from Apple...
I wish they changed their name from Apple to Banana, would be more appropriate I think :)
I will happily never buy an apple product.
just stop buying apple products lol
Agreed
I'm happy they do this so people will stop using it
And M$ is going the same route. This corporations are getting too damn powerful and controlling, and people is too damn lazy this days to fight this until is too late. The problem is we are slowly with less options against this monopolies.
Time to leave the bonnet and run an Android ROM.
👍🏼✅
i will never buy apple products again. the last product i had from them was the iphone 4
Solution: just use android
sad stuff
Someone has to kill something somewhere because something is clearly broken.
Liked and shared to X.
I get why epic is pissed but they did agree to the rules and intentionally tried to stir a shitstorm .
apple is making me switch to android, god
Support Apple and buy their products 🤣
You shouldn't let a greedy company that cares only for money to control 50% of the phones people use (and the other 50% use Google phones lol) but you know, wasn't this inevitable?
But the camera is good 🤤😃
yeah, too much
You think building pwa's guards you from apples madness. Once again they prove you wrong.
There is an untold number of pwas made by small to medium enterprises that apple have just taken a big shit on all of those people to the point there's no stable access to the iPhone at all.
Lol apple always sucked
Really missing mr jobs right now
Never had never will use any garbage apple product 😊
Always been free and always will choose freedom over ios. Android is the way .
another reason to switch to android haha, apple making themselves a bigger grave, I already am ready to switch this added more reason to switch, the nail was already in the coffin, they upgraded to coffin from wood to steel now
is this pay back for EUSB-C? lol
going as watching the video.
And to start with this , I was actually pretty hyped when PWAs were announced on iOS, because that meant that you did not have to go to App Store to download an app.
Now to my experience unfortunately less than 2% of the apps I needed had a PWA option and in many cases they were lacking, so that actually made them useless but that is another discussion about adoption.
Is the chance that this move can be as you say, a kids tantrum or malicious compliance? oh yes, for sure. Probably 98%.
The problem here is that you have to examine all sides and evidence which you are failing to do so unfortunately. You present an opinion or a speculation as a fact but with no evidence to support it.
and to make it very clear here are some points that shows that the arguments are lacking evidence and are biased
1. The risk is there, since Apple can no longer vet for the stores or the apps. So they are not responsible and this is where the people will complain when/if they download that malware app. Saying that there is no risk it is ignorant at least. You cannot say there is no danger when I can make a store and load any app in there good or bad.
2. Ozbay's obviously says, that since the PWA are no longer available THEY have to spend more engineering hours etc to make their app work etc. So they want to offload that work to Apple which Apple obviously thinks they do not want to take over. This might be time, engineers and money, (not including here security), and they don't want to spend those. Yes?
3. PWA adoption on phones is very low. Trying to pass that PWA on mobiles is everywhere is misinformation.
4. Apple and any other company they need to comply with the said government laws and policies if they want to continue doing business there. Seriously guys , come on. This part should not have been in the video.
5. Ozbay again, You are doing speculations at this point. with the only evidence an email from 2011 that HTML can be a danger to app-store. You pass over though some key things dismissing them quite fast regarding the access that the engines would need to parts/layers of the OS in order for PWAs to work properly if needed. So access to storage is not a danger? huh, nice to know. Also how sure are you about the inner works of iOS that this actually poses no security threat? So far I have read and watched people raging about this but no one can provide a piece of evidence.
Hi there! John here 👋🏻 I'll address your points one by one.
1) "Saying that there is no risk it is ignorant at least" - Nobody said there's no risk. Neither I nor Henry, nor the OWA. That's a very black and white statement, not sure what made you think we said this? We did say however : 'having a choice matters'. If you personally don't wish to take risks, that's completely okay, you don't have to install apps from another store, and you can pay Apple 30% of your money. That doesn't mean other stores shouldn't exist.
2) No we don't want to offload that work to Apple.
a) Apple already had done that work. They're _removing_ a feature that existed since iOS1, not adding a new one.
b) As I mentioned in the video, EU DMA does not require Apple to remove any features.
3) "PWA adoption on phones is very low." - Do you have any sources to back that statement? I would love to see that? The data I have in front of me looks _very_ different. Furthermore, yes, PWA adoption is _lower_ compared to native apps on iOS devices, precisely because Apple has been handicapping web apps and driving users to their store for years. And since you wrote "PWA adoption on _phones_ is very low.", but not "on _iPhones_ is very low" -> Kai OS is an operating system used by hundreds of millions of people and gaining traction at an unprecedented speed, and it exclusively uses PWAs.
4) Correct, they need to comply with the laws. And what Apple did had nothing to do with the law or its requirements. Again, EU DMA did not require Apple to remove any features. Apple is using this as an opportunity. + Apple, a 3 trillion dollar company, with hundreds of thousands of employees had nearly a year to prepare for this, but they so casually chose to remove support for PWAs secretly and silently in a beta update one week before their compliance deadline with no announcements or blog posts even in the webkit developer documentation? If their intentions weren't hostile, they could announce ahead of time to prevent user data loss, or give developers time to prepare. (i.e. before they announce any product, like Vision Pro, they give developers a year to develop apps, or before they release a new major iOS version, they give developers nearly 3-4 months to prepare for it. not one week with no announcements.)
5) "You are doing speculations at this point ... You pass over though some key things dismissing them quite fast regarding the access that the engines would need to parts/layers of the OS in order for PWAs to work properly if needed" -> Glad you mentioned actually. I prepared everything I said in this video on the phone with the help of Open Web Advocacy group, some members of which consists of browser engineers. So respectfully, I think they know a wee bit more than you do about browser engines since they make them.
"Also how sure are you about the inner works of iOS that this actually poses no security threat?" - VERY SURE. 👍🏻
"So far I have read and watched people raging about this but no one can provide a piece of evidence." - Lucky for you, in legal systems, there's something called "burden of proof". The accuser has to provide the evidence against the accused. At the moment I'm legally not allowed to talk about our proof, but after Apple's deadline, you will have all the proof you need.
Wishing you all the best from Northern Europe ❄
@@cryptee Hello and thanks very much for your reply
I am not sure why you think I want to pay 30% on the store, I clearly said I was hyped about PWAs coming to iPhone :)
1. Indeed I got confused by your comment on Apple's response about Site isolation and not on the App Store. You are correct.
For the rest I will say that I understand what you say, and mostly agree , not 100% but almost there. (I also wrote that this is Apple throwing a tantrum 98%).
I am glad that you are aware of the inner works and that you have proof for all those things that will come after the deadline, and I will gladly read it/watch it.
At this point though, on the moment of this writing, there is none that can be provided. I understand the reason that it cant, but it is still a speculation until it is somehow validated.
My point , which I probably failed to pass, still stands. This video looked more like a "resistance poster". I do not get enough information to actually believe that Apple is doing this on purpose (irrelevant of what I believe).
I think it would be much better if you guys had a discussion going through that subject as an overview, presenting all sides allowing the benefit of the doubt (yes this is important), and then when you actually could present your findings then come down like a rain of fire.
That is my opinion at least.
All the best and looking forward for the next one!!
You wrote a long text but also didn't show any proof that pwa are a security risk, and you also make assumptions about what the risks of alternative app stores would be like, even though this hasn't even happened yet and no one knows what it will be like. But your most ridiculous argument is that Apple won't be able to check the security of apps in alternative stores, thus justifying the lack of freedom, but you forget that this is the user's responsibility, if they don't want to take that risk, just download it from official store, as the App Store will continue to be the only pre-installed store
@@alguem892 you need to read the comment and the response again. You are missing the point.
But even if in the scenario that I was defending Apple, I am not the one that has to provide evidence. The video comes without any evidence itself. At this point they are assumptions and accusations without a base. This is the point, that they need to provide evidence . Read again
Stop buying Apple products. A: they're overpriced and B: the quality is crap.
Android is just as pricey from the highend. I wouldnt go far in calling it crap either.
@@Simulati0nsamsung is just apple but using android so you have a lot more choices
Because greed is God .
Apple rollback their decision
The first thing you can do is to get an Android phone. 😅
Oh no, a closed garden company keeps behaving exactly like you would expect they would!
I say, good for them. It will increase profits. Most of their users won't care.
I'm so glad I'm not related to you. I don't have that stain.
well if they get a fine of 20% their revenue each year, it will DECREASE profit...
@@szasamasa9406please eu fines are never payed ,they just go from court to court to court to infinity all while our eu taxes go up and up same with the number op mp,s.
After the last incerase of mp seats i think where upto 650
Wait no push notifications? This is a blessing!
I'm sure, you don't really meant what you wrote. We have to be careful with sarcasm because many people with take it for true.
If you don't want push notifications as a user, you can simply disallow them. This is totally different: Apple disallowes them for all users regardless of their choice.
It's a shame that many apple fans defend those decisions, because "Apple is always right".
Sometimes I think, Apple has become a church instead of a tech company...
it is your choice, you can decline by native apps, you can decline by web apps... you may want a notification if you have Outlook Web App if you get an email, so why do you agree Apple should decide you cannot allow this feature on your device you bought for 1000$+? you are in control unless Apple is...
I’m cool with it.
To support your work .. I will donate a pair of scissors and a mirror to our friend at 4:25
Who?
You make such a big stink over this, and yet you never suggest "avoid Apple products" as a solution. How big of a mess does Apple have to make before you finally ditch them?
*It's weird how it's "yay" when a gov't (or body like the EU) **_forces_** Apple (a corporation) to do something, and then when Apple decides to do something (which they absolutely can do as a corporation) everyone gets mad and wants to get angry on the internet. Crazy world we live in. Gotta take a step back sometimes.*
So you don't realize there is a difference between a company and a democratic institution?
Furthermore the latter wants to ensure that the open web will evolve and the other one does not want it because it could be a thread to their hermetic infrastructure.
The open web is crucial for our democracy and our societies!
@@mathe-info you mean the open internet where EU can monitor all your traffic and collect all your data as per the latest legislation they want to pass? This open and free web?
The eu is a “collective” 😂, this isn’t the usa buddy, laws change country to country with some overall regulations from the eu.
Together we have more bargaining power.
@@mirai9150 a democratic way 😆😆😆
we can actually say that there are the controlling countries and the countries that are controlled in EU. There is no question about that.
The only democratic is that for many matters as a collective there is a vote
@@mirai9150 if it is democratic, then how come Hungary can stop eg. the assistance EU wants to give to Ukraine. One vote blocks everything. Democratic will be if the result was affected by the majority.
Having said that what you say , does not invalidate what I mentioned. There are the controlling EU states, and those who are controlled.
Your guest needs to get a haircut ASAP
Apple is finally removing the wart which is PWAs. That's a huge improvement. Now if only other OS'es will do the same thing, the world will be a better place.
Ok
I see apple is sending the bots out in force today....
@@nihil8607 What a convenient world view. Anyone disagreeing with you is a "bot".
@@lazyhominid when they have such ludicrous takes, i have to wonder, you know?
@@nihil8607 I good number of people pressure a well crafted native indie app to a garbage PWA.. If you a company and your thinking of making a PWA maybe just document your api and let others make a few nice apps for your customers rather than force them to use the crap your calling a PWA that is sometimes not even properly response website let alone anything that resembles a real app.
You are so brave! 🏳🌈🏳🌈🏳🌈🏳🌈 So glad to see your new partnership working out
What...?
Bruh
I HAVE GOOGLE ANDROID NOT APPLE IOS THIS IS WHY GOOGLE IS GREATER THEN APPLE
Now WebDevs need to learn real skills and develop a native app.... the horror!
Only WebDevs are mad at this, no one in the real world actually uses or care about PWA's so nothing of value was lost
I develop several pwas for edicational purposes in school.
A native application needs a user account, there are always privacy concerns. Furthermore I must provide native apps for iOS, android, windows, linux and any other OS because we are in school and nobody can force anyone to use a specific software.
I just want to use the features that the web provides.
In school context there is also no way to drop apple, because this is a decision everybody has to make on their own.
iOShole ignorance like this is the main reason Apple can get away with extorting more and more money from you and the rest of their hostages, unfortunately that includes people who never bought an Apple product themselves but are forced to pay Apple anyway. Mafia practices. And the rest is supposed to watch as it slowly kills the only ubiquitous open platform there is.
I agree that web apps usually are not good and the experience of using them are not the same as a native app
Stop crying and build a native app.
2 weeks to develop and hope 🍏 approves it once submitted, not removed for random reason in the future and pay 30% cut of everything forever for nothing. There's one party that benefits from this and it's not users or developers, only Apple.