I talked to Jeff Ocheltree at a Steve Smith clinic a few years ago. He told me John did several takes of both kits for each song. For the final mix nobody really knows which kit for each song. When I listen to In Through the Outdoor with headphones, it sounds like the same kit for the entire album. I also I think this album is the first time Bonham was getting a lot of his sound from the close drum mics in addition to his overhead and ambient mics for recording.
Simple explanation - they shipped more than one kit to the studio. During soundchecking (they/he) discovered that they were not happy with the sound they were getting with the stainless steel kit, thus came the change-out to the (_________) kit. Think about it: just because there is a picture of that kit in the studio does not mean that the album contains tracks recorded by that kit. For example, I took 6 snares into the studio - only ended up using 2.
+drhappyyy That's right-they obviously shipped more than one kit to the studio as the pic clearly shows two drumkits. And it makes sense that Bonham may have been very keen to record with the stainless, but upon listening to the playback decided to stick with the wood kit (the green sparkle to the left, or perhaps the silver sparkle not actually in the photo). However, the back story is: various folks supposedly in the know (Bonham's roadie Jeff Ocheltree being one of them) said Bonham had a silver sparkle kit in the Stainless kit sizes. He also maintained that Bonham never used anything but wood drums during studio/album recording. Therefore, Bonham knowledgeable folks always presumed this is the silver sparkle Ludwig kit in this photograph. Ocheltree himself said it was the silver sparkle kit used in Stockholm, as did Bill Townsend (both also said the silver sparkle kit was used on Presence). The point here is that I believe, however blurry this image is, it shows upon close inspection it is, based on 'fuzzy analysis of the fuzzy picture', the stainless kit-not the silver. It could very well be the silver sparkle kit (in fact, Townsend himself told me about this photo 20 years ago-he said it showed the silver sparkle kit- but I personally only first saw it 10 years ago here on the internet, and it's always been this exact fuzzy photo). Either kit it is; I'll be very happy (indeed all we fellow Bonhamites) to finally have seen the CLEAR VERSION of the photo. To me posting this video win-win, no matter what kit it turns out to be. I'm hoping it may spur someone to come up with a clean resolution version of the pic. Know what I'm sayin'?
Mr. Bonzoleum, You are correct about the Stainless Steel Kit in the photo. It is miced and if you look closer at the bass drum, on the right side of the photo as we are looking at it , you can also see the " Mirror Reflection of the surroundings on the side of the bass drum also." But, I have seen many, many photo's and video's of John playing his Silver Sparkle kit. It was the same sizes as mine and his Green Sparkle kit. The mounted tom was 10x14. The rest are the same, " 10x14, 16x16, 16x18 and 14x26....." So, with that said, John himself and Eddie Kramer and John McDerrmit also stated, that John only used his Green Sparkle Kit" on all of his recordings. You have a good ear for sounds, as I do. The stainless kit was the worst sounding" Jarring Kit" of all of his drum sets. When you listen to him play it live, just before he died, you can tell, that even with all of Eddie Kramer's talent, even he couldn't make that Stainless Kit sound as good as the "GOOD OLD MAPLE DRUM SOUND." So, for the record, Listen close to all of the albums , and let your ears listen to the tone of the Bass Drum and the 14,16, and 18 toms, and your ears won't lie to you. He may have done some recording with the Stainless Kit, BUT, they were never put on "ANY ZEPPELIN ALBUMS...." JIMMY WAS AS ANAL AS I AM ABOUT SOUND. WE CAN BOTH AGREE ABOUT THAT.... But, back to the photo, you can't get a reflection off of a silver sparkle kit like a MIRROR as you can clearly see on the BASS DRUM in the photo. The only way to get a reflection from a drum is either one of two types of drums. 1- Stainless, but more importantly is the CHROME KIT, Which can never be mistaken for Stainless Drums...So, in ending, I have seen that kit, that photo and I am certain about what I'm saying. You can believe me or not, but, look at the bass drums reflection in that photo also. It can't be mistaken for CHROME. And as we both know, John Bonham NEVER owned a chrome set. Also, there is a photo in the book, " THE THUNDER OF DRUMS" where there is a photo of a " BLACK AND WHITE SWIRL SET" again, THAT IT WAS SAID THAT JOHN never, I repeat, NEVER played those drums. He gave them to a friend, that to this day, that person still owns them, BUT, I have seen pictures and VIDEO's of John playing them also. Like the stories about, " Alice Cooper, A.K.A. Vincent Furnier.....All of the stories about where and when his original band mates were born, raised and went to school. Vincent was born and raised in Detriot City, Mi, Glen Buxten was born in I believe Idaho or Oklahoma, Michael was born in Ohio or Oklahoma, " one of the mid-western states. The only band member that was born and raised in Arizona, was Dennis Dunaway. The first album's drummer was John Tatum on " Easy Action" The second album's drummer was, John Speer, on the album, " Pretty's For You. Then on the 3rd album was a drummer named, "Neil Smith." I know first hand ALL ABOUT ALICE COOPERS BAND, Because, I wrote Halo of Flies and Hallowed be my name...That's another story entirely... Chao brother.
"They were here for three weeks, they came on a Monday and left on a Friday. I remember that they weren't allowed to stayed at Grand (Hotel), because the drummer John Bonham had a bad reputation. But they were mellow. No one recognized them when we went out. The most important thing to them was that each week they'd have a cassette to bring home to their wives, as a proof that they had been working." haha
+Rhythmista I agree, but it could have still been done. I truly put the video up in the hope someone might find the high res version of the photo. Bonham did have a silver sparkle kit-and indeed this is what might be in the picture-but looking closely at the shot as I said, there appears to be reflections in the finish that would point to it being the stainless.
bonzoleum Oh for sure ! I think it's pretty cool that a pic actually came out. The high reso pic might appear one day.. There's also a pic of Bonzo with a Silver sparkle kit and i think it may be the only one i've seen. It would've been cool to see more of it.. Thanks for the info !
+bonzoleum I have a high res copy of the photo. It's in the booklet for the Super Deluxe Edition of ITTOD, with some other photos from Polar Studios too. It's very obviously the stainless steel kit with the green sparkle kit. Also shows the mic setup for ITTOD. Here are the images: s44.photobucket.com/user/lcondo123/library/Polar%20Studios%201978%20Super%20Deluxe%20Box%20Set
+Allan Vanko Thanks Allan! I use a MXL V250 condenser for an overhead. I think the combo of the shure headset and the overhead make for a pretty nice sound!
+Allan Vanko They do sound really good. The batters are the factory Premier-they're pretty much Remo clear Emperor equivalents (or Evans G2 clear). The bottoms are Ambassador equivalents.
I wish we lived closer. I think that you and I would be best friends. You're a character, just like myself. Plus, we both have something in common. We are DIE HARD BONHAM FANS AND FANATICS....That's what makes us tick... See you later, BROTHER...
One more thing Mr. Bonzoleum, When ever John played the Stainless Kit, you can "ALWAYS TELL WITHOUT EVER EVEN SEEING IT, BECAUSE, He had that 402 snare tuned way up higher. That was another thing that I didn't like about him playing that set. The Bass Drum sounded different" As It Should, Being Steel" and the snare was TOO TIGHT. He always , throughout his career, was known for having that distinct snare sound, even live, EXCEPT when he played that Stainless Set, Am I right???? Do you hear it? For some reason he tuned his snare too high on that kit. I don't know why, but, it is a fact... More food for thought...Good night Sir Bonzoleum!!!
hold on. Terry. if you listen to ITTOD album, the drums sound totally different than any other Zeppelin albums! I have always been wondering why? maybe they did use the steel kit on that album. cause the green sparkle set sounds wayyyy more focused, and the bass drum is nowhere near as muddy as what you hear on this album, as opposed to all the other zep albums. just saying... unless they used different mixing And micing, eq, compression, etc...? what do you think? listen to that whole album, then listen to all the other ZEP albums... even just physical or presence. I think the drums sound much better on all the other albums... with the exception of, fool in the rain.
+james richardson I had heard they cut a port in the bass drum for ITTOD, which would lend an argument for a more focused BD sound on the album, but as you said:it's not as focused. There's no way to really know unless some photos turn up (or film video). I'd really like to find a the original resolution of this picture!
Dare I say it, but you're actually doing the kick part wrong on The Crunge.Listen closely to the mix on the deluxe edition in mono to hear it more clearly.
+bonzoleum Okay. I still can't get over how good those drums sound. Have you ever thought about using a few more mics and panning some stuff in stereo? Even if only one test video?
I will-I have 2 other condenser mics that I'll eq and pan a bit. I was under the impression for a while that the camera was mono-but it is in fact stereo!
Also, We've done 4 already and now steady and then they went , 1, 2, 3, 4 Dah, dah, ..dah,dah,dah,...boom,boom,boom,boom, tit, tit.....You know the rest... John also sang that part........Where's the confounded Bridge.... Ring a Bell????? THE CRUNGE....John sang both parts. I know because I seen him....
Talk to you another time. You can call me if you ever want to. You can go to my Facebook for my Ph #. Then, send me a message and we can talk, if you like. Good Night again Mr. Bonzo-man.
I talked to Jeff Ocheltree at a Steve Smith clinic a few years ago. He told me John did several takes of both kits for each song. For the final mix nobody really knows which kit for each song. When I listen to In Through the Outdoor with headphones, it sounds like the same kit for the entire album. I also I think this album is the first time Bonham was getting a lot of his sound from the close drum mics in addition to his overhead and ambient mics for recording.
Simple explanation - they shipped more than one kit to the studio. During soundchecking (they/he) discovered that they were not happy with the sound they were getting with the stainless steel kit, thus came the change-out to the (_________) kit. Think about it: just because there is a picture of that kit in the studio does not mean that the album contains tracks recorded by that kit. For example, I took 6 snares into the studio - only ended up using 2.
+drhappyyy That's right-they obviously shipped more than one kit to the studio as the pic clearly shows two drumkits. And it makes sense that Bonham may have been very keen to record with the stainless, but upon listening to the playback decided to stick with the wood kit (the green sparkle to the left, or perhaps the silver sparkle not actually in the photo).
However, the back story is: various folks supposedly in the know (Bonham's roadie Jeff Ocheltree being one of them) said Bonham had a silver sparkle kit in the Stainless kit sizes. He also maintained that Bonham never used anything but wood drums during studio/album recording. Therefore, Bonham knowledgeable folks always presumed this is the silver sparkle Ludwig kit in this photograph. Ocheltree himself said it was the silver sparkle kit used in Stockholm, as did Bill Townsend (both also said the silver sparkle kit was used on Presence). The point here is that I believe, however blurry this image is, it shows upon close inspection it is, based on 'fuzzy analysis of the fuzzy picture', the stainless kit-not the silver.
It could very well be the silver sparkle kit (in fact, Townsend himself told me about this photo 20 years ago-he said it showed the silver sparkle kit- but I personally only first saw it 10 years ago here on the internet, and it's always been this exact fuzzy photo).
Either kit it is; I'll be very happy (indeed all we fellow Bonhamites) to finally have seen the CLEAR VERSION of the photo. To me posting this video win-win, no matter what kit it turns out to be. I'm hoping it may spur someone to come up with a clean resolution version of the pic. Know what I'm sayin'?
Love the shirt Bonzoleum! :)
Mr. Bonzoleum, You are correct about the Stainless Steel Kit in the photo. It is miced and if you look closer at the bass drum, on the right side of the photo as we are looking at it , you can also see the " Mirror Reflection of the surroundings on the side of the bass drum also." But, I have seen many, many photo's and video's of John playing his Silver Sparkle kit. It was the same sizes as mine and his Green Sparkle kit. The mounted tom was 10x14. The rest are the same, " 10x14, 16x16, 16x18 and 14x26....." So, with that said, John himself and Eddie Kramer and John McDerrmit also stated, that John only used his Green Sparkle Kit" on all of his recordings. You have a good ear for sounds, as I do. The stainless kit was the worst sounding" Jarring Kit" of all of his drum sets. When you listen to him play it live, just before he died, you can tell, that even with all of Eddie Kramer's talent, even he couldn't make that Stainless Kit sound as good as the "GOOD OLD MAPLE DRUM SOUND." So, for the record, Listen close to all of the albums , and let your ears listen to the tone of the Bass Drum and the 14,16, and 18 toms, and your ears won't lie to you. He may have done some recording with the Stainless Kit, BUT, they were never put on "ANY ZEPPELIN ALBUMS...." JIMMY WAS AS ANAL AS I AM ABOUT SOUND. WE CAN BOTH AGREE ABOUT THAT.... But, back to the photo, you can't get a reflection off of a silver sparkle kit like a MIRROR as you can clearly see on the BASS DRUM in the photo. The only way to get a reflection from a drum is either one of two types of drums. 1- Stainless, but more importantly is the CHROME KIT, Which can never be mistaken for Stainless Drums...So, in ending, I have seen that kit, that photo and I am certain about what I'm saying. You can believe me or not, but, look at the bass drums reflection in that photo also. It can't be mistaken for CHROME. And as we both know, John Bonham NEVER owned a chrome set. Also, there is a photo in the book, " THE THUNDER OF DRUMS" where there is a photo of a " BLACK AND WHITE SWIRL SET" again, THAT IT WAS SAID THAT JOHN never, I repeat, NEVER played those drums. He gave them to a friend, that to this day, that person still owns them, BUT, I have seen pictures and VIDEO's of John playing them also. Like the stories about, " Alice Cooper, A.K.A. Vincent Furnier.....All of the stories about where and when his original band mates were born, raised and went to school. Vincent was born and raised in Detriot City, Mi, Glen Buxten was born in I believe Idaho or Oklahoma, Michael was born in Ohio or Oklahoma, " one of the mid-western states. The only band member that was born and raised in Arizona, was Dennis Dunaway. The first album's drummer was John Tatum on " Easy Action" The second album's drummer was, John Speer, on the album, " Pretty's For You. Then on the 3rd album was a drummer named, "Neil Smith." I know first hand ALL ABOUT ALICE COOPERS BAND, Because, I wrote Halo of Flies and Hallowed be my name...That's another story entirely... Chao brother.
"They were here for three weeks,
they came on a Monday and left on a Friday. I remember that they weren't allowed
to stayed at Grand (Hotel), because the drummer John Bonham had a bad
reputation. But they were mellow. No one recognized them when we went out. The
most important thing to them was that each week they'd have a cassette to bring
home to their wives, as a proof that they had been working." haha
A stainless steel kit would've been a recording nightmare for both Page and for the engineer..
+Rhythmista I agree, but it could have still been done. I truly put the video up in the hope someone might find the high res version of the photo. Bonham did have a silver sparkle kit-and indeed this is what might be in the picture-but looking closely at the shot as I said, there appears to be reflections in the finish that would point to it being the stainless.
bonzoleum Oh for sure ! I think it's pretty cool that a pic actually came out. The high reso pic might appear one day.. There's also a pic of Bonzo with a Silver sparkle kit and i think it may be the only one i've seen. It would've been cool to see more of it.. Thanks for the info !
+bonzoleum I have a high res copy of the photo. It's in the booklet for the Super Deluxe Edition of ITTOD, with some other photos from Polar Studios too. It's very obviously the stainless steel kit with the green sparkle kit. Also shows the mic setup for ITTOD. Here are the images:
s44.photobucket.com/user/lcondo123/library/Polar%20Studios%201978%20Super%20Deluxe%20Box%20Set
Thank you, Rover! You're the king!!!
The KING OF KINGS!!!!!!!!
sos un genio flaco !! de aca desde Argentina, yo are awesome
What are you using to record the audio with these days? The toms sound great! It has to be more than just the voice mike you're using.
+Allan Vanko Thanks Allan! I use a MXL V250 condenser for an overhead. I think the combo of the shure headset and the overhead make for a pretty nice sound!
+bonzoleum They do make a good combination. Single or double ply heads? They just plain sound good.
+Allan Vanko They do sound really good. The batters are the factory Premier-they're pretty much Remo clear Emperor equivalents (or Evans G2 clear). The bottoms are Ambassador equivalents.
Your snare sounds freaking great by the way! Would you happend to have a DrumDial to tell me the readings? :)
Is it just me or does the green kits bass drum have a clear head and a pillow inside or is that just a weird reflection?
+Tim Brown I think it is a clear head-possibly a Ludwig silver dot. The white you see in the BD I believe is a felt strip.
+bonzoleum At least it's not the dreaded pillow or blanket. That would be Bonzo Blasphemy!
I wish we lived closer. I think that you and I would be best friends. You're a character, just like myself. Plus, we both have something in common. We are DIE HARD BONHAM FANS AND FANATICS....That's what makes us tick... See you later, BROTHER...
One more thing Mr. Bonzoleum, When ever John played the Stainless Kit, you can "ALWAYS TELL WITHOUT EVER EVEN SEEING IT, BECAUSE, He had that 402 snare tuned way up higher. That was another thing that I didn't like about him playing that set. The Bass Drum sounded different" As It Should, Being Steel" and the snare was TOO TIGHT. He always , throughout his career, was known for having that distinct snare sound, even live, EXCEPT when he played that Stainless Set, Am I right???? Do you hear it? For some reason he tuned his snare too high on that kit. I don't know why, but, it is a fact... More food for thought...Good night Sir Bonzoleum!!!
+Joseph Monaco Good night, sir!!!
Are you sure its not a mic cord not a reflection?
hold on. Terry. if you listen to ITTOD album, the drums sound totally different than any other Zeppelin albums! I have always been wondering why? maybe they did use the steel kit on that album. cause the green sparkle set sounds wayyyy more focused, and the bass drum is nowhere near as muddy as what you hear on this album, as opposed to all the other zep albums. just saying... unless they used different mixing And micing, eq, compression, etc...? what do you think? listen to that whole album, then listen to all the other ZEP albums... even just physical or presence. I think the drums sound much better on all the other albums... with the exception of, fool in the rain.
+james richardson I had heard they cut a port in the bass drum for ITTOD, which would lend an argument for a more focused BD sound on the album, but as you said:it's not as focused. There's no way to really know unless some photos turn up (or film video). I'd really like to find a the original resolution of this picture!
here is a picture set of the stainless set www.johnbonham.co.uk/pictures/JohnBonhamDrumKit-Pics/pages/JohnBonhamLedZeppelin26.html
Dare I say it, but you're actually doing the kick part wrong on The Crunge.Listen closely to the mix on the deluxe edition in mono to hear it more clearly.
+Beatles Instrumentals and More I'm aware-I'm just fucking around.
+bonzoleum Okay. I still can't get over how good those drums sound. Have you ever thought about using a few more mics and panning some stuff in stereo? Even if only one test video?
I will-I have 2 other condenser mics that I'll eq and pan a bit. I was under the impression for a while that the camera was mono-but it is in fact stereo!
+bonzoleum Even if the camera was mono, you could always use that board you have to record each mic to it's own track and pan it that way. Right?
Correct, sir!
Also, We've done 4 already and now steady and then they went , 1, 2, 3, 4 Dah, dah, ..dah,dah,dah,...boom,boom,boom,boom, tit, tit.....You know the rest... John also sang that part........Where's the confounded Bridge.... Ring a Bell????? THE CRUNGE....John sang both parts. I know because I seen him....
Joseph Monaco what a legend
Talk to you another time. You can call me if you ever want to. You can go to my Facebook for my Ph #. Then, send me a message and we can talk, if you like. Good Night again Mr. Bonzo-man.
funny everyone's chating bout your sound, it's not normally like this getting a bit of feed back type gay fuzz hope it's not my headfones n it's u lol