I spoke to a test pilot in the late 80s who told me the F86 Sabre was the best plane he ever flew. He was dying and he flew ww2 and other post war planes. It always stuck w me.
@@ScoopsTV-YDD Well, the first 6 aircraft were assembled with wing parts salvaged from Messerschmitt Me-262s The entire airframe however is a German design, designed by Edgar Schmüd and his team of Messerschmitt engineers.
14 people can fit into the intake of the F86. My aircraft mechanic school had one, and one day we students tried to find out, and to test our susceptibility to claustrophobia. All went well, until somebody passed gas…
Years ago, I remember talking to a Sabre pilot who felt his was the better plane. His argument was that the 86 was a very accurate gun platform and that the MiG didn't have the same control authority.
The pipper on the Sabre did calculation around leading or what some shooters call "deflection shooting". You don't want to line up directly upon the target because the object will have moved away from that place by the time your bullets enter that area. You want to "lead" the target so that the stream of bullets meets the travelling target at the crucial point of destruction (the speed of the bullets is a known figure or can be entered into the system). This kind of analysis can get complex when you are also moving in "dogfight" type aerobatic activity (so other vectors may matter). Having help is a great thing. This is like having a special shotgun which adjusts to hit the Clay Pidgeon you are looking at, rather than having to do all the work oneself.
The Mig's didn't have pressurized cockpits, so when an F-86 dove, they would let them run most of the time, because they had a severe condition that fogged the Mig's canopy when rapidly dropping from high altitude. For what they were, that bridge in technology was coming fast, and they were some of the last gunfighters before the missile took over. They definitely learned a lesson when it came to Vietnam, because the F-4 was only a missile platform when it started its combat mission, and they had to scramble to find a stopgap while they were being modified to carry a 20mm canon and an actual gun sight. The aircraft built since, all have the ability to go to guns if called for.
It was better. The only problem was that it has a weaker engine. The Saber was better in every other aspect. Accurate gun, better handling, build quality, aerodynamics, ergonomics, etc. This goes to show how important the engine was to give the Mig any advantage. I would say engine is at least 80% of what made a plane of that era. The Saber was also commonly going super sonic in dives, and Migs would essentially fail to keep up or risk falling apart in the same type of dive.
The analog "computer" for targeting was some clever engineering. Using valves/tubes in a pre-transistor era, it could to summing, differential and logarithmic calculations so that the pilot didn't have to guess the lead arc.
Yes, this is an analog computer. Literally true, and this was all before the transistor. Probably today, not many realize there were non-digital computers back in the day (B29 had an elaborate system for gunner stations and defense guns). It is true that any device which can do certain basic arithmetic, can store addresses and can execute instructions in sequence can be considered a "computer". You can use electronic components, reference voltages, or frequencies, and can thus do math, and then can provide for setting up simple "programs" within the gear. It turns out electronic components lend themselves to things like logarithm or exponent in addition to simpler functions. Having help with the targeting on a fast moving jet, with a moving target like another jet would be a great benefit. There are only so many bullets in your wings.
Yes, a weave approach was well known to the trained pilots of USAF. They also seem to have done good work around dealing with the higher altitude capability of the Mig-15. I think Russia had focused upon extreme high altitude interceptor designs out of fears generated from B29 having had an improved altitude. Soon Russia actually got a copy of a B29. Both USA and Russia reacted quite quickly to what they determined to be going on with the opponent.
@@DoBraveryFPS Gear really matters. I have nothing but admiration for these pilots, really on both sides. The people at the controls of these planes are fare easier to relate to than the people in the Pentagon or in office.
Superior training philosophy and the freedom enjoyed by our military members to think on their feet and implement on their own when the command structure breaks down has something to do with it. Most enemies that we've fought against couldn't take a sht without orders.
Omg the Sabre was my favorite fighter jet as a kid. I fell asleep under my Testors' F-86 and MiG 17 locked in eternal dogfight in the hallowed airspace above my bed. (psst. Dad helped me add the destructive effects of the Sabre's guns on the MiG by burning holes with his soldering pen in the MiG's tail and wing.)
You conitinually show the F-86D Sabre Dog while talking about the guns on the F-86. The D model was an interceptor and did not have guns. It instead had folding fin rockets in a retractable tray on the bottom of the fuselage.
The Sabres had an advantage that was not immediately obvious, better cockpit heat. Because of this when the Sabres could entice a Mig to dive after them from high altitude, as soon as both aircraft hit the warmer more humid air at lower altitude the Mig's cockpit glass would quickly frost over on the inside while the Sabre's heaters kept their glass clear. Blind Mig equals ded Mig. The Mig pilots figured it out of course and the Sabres had a way to dive out of a tangle and re-join later.
The MiG 15 also had a disadvantage in that its controls were not hydraulically actuated, but rather by cable and pulley. This required much strength on the part of the pilot.
@@Pau_Pau9 I asked a late friend, who was an aerospace engineer, about the MiG-15's maneuverability. According to him, that plane was, indeed, more capable of maneuvering, but it took a lot of force on part of the pilot. From other sources I learned that its weaponry was, indeed, fearsome, and it could reach high altitude faster than the F-86 Saber. However, as Yeager found out when he flew a captured example, it could not break the sound barrier. If memory serves, beyond Mach 0.93 it was a handful, and around Mach 0.96 the plane was next to impossible to handle. The next MiG fighter, the 17, could indeed break the sound barrier - but had a tendency to pitch up and was not fitted with an all-flying tailplane, a feature left up to the MiG-19. So, was it a much superior 'pilot' plane? That depends on who's the pilot. In the hands of novel, relatively green pilots and facing well-trained Saber drivers, the odds were against them. Flown by expert Soviet pilots, the odds were more evenly matched, but I'd say they were closely matched, as no plane had every advantage to it.
@@robertodeleon-gonzalez9844 The Mig15 was extremely maneuverable. But because Mig pilots did not have G-suits at the time, F-86 pilots could pull higher G-turns than the Mig. I heard by 1 G. On several occasions US pilots witnessed Mig pilots pulling high G's blackout and fall out of control.
On a side note the Mig-15 had a British Rolls Royce engine. It was the Rolls Royce Neimen Engine an engine the British government sidelined and sold to the Soviet Union (Which they reversed engineered and put it into the Mig-15.)
Yes, oddly Britain continued to use the cooperation approach of the war, even after the entire conflict was over. Perhaps they realized that it was only a matter of time before far more advanced jet engines were developed. I know they had a lot of bills to pay and needed money, so that may have been a big factor. Right at 1944 and 1945 Britain was a leader in jet engine technology. The two engineers who really birthed jets were Frank Whittle (Britain) and Hans von Ohain (Germany). Whittle tried to develop his own company, but eventually Rolls Royce just pushed him away from the center of things. Herr von Ohain went with Mr. Heinkel, who adored speed more than any other aspect of aviation. Eventually the two engineers got to meet one another and became friends.
The North American Sabre with the "nose" (a radar dome) is called "Sabre model D". It's considered a different model. The regular F86 Sabre is all air intake in the front, where the Super Sabre has both radome and air intake.
Newsflash: It's not "The Plane Who Downed Two Jets with One Burst". That would be "The Pilot Who Downed Two Jets with One Burst". And Chuck Yeager downed two enemy aircraft with NO burst. On 10/12 44, as he moved into firing position on a ME-109, the pilot broke hard to port before he opened fire and collided with his wingman. Both pilots bailed out of their aircraft, and Yeager got credit for two of his five kills that day.
The stats show that Russian WW2 aces vs USAF WW2 aces was a very close match in these jets. Once the Russians were rotated out and replaced by newer and novice Chinese and N Korean pilots, the odds were heavily in favour of the US pilots. The later Sabres were better but the difference in pilot qualities was key.
This channel tends to be loose with specific choice of images. I get it that they are pounding out this content, but those of us who really love this old aircraft tend to notice all the details. The F86 with the nose is truly different.
The F-86A models were the first to fight the Mig-15 in the Korean war. This video clearly shows photos of the F-86D Sabre Dog in this report. The Sabre Dog did not get into Korea until after the Korean war. I don't know about this channel.
@@Ducc_of_Quacc You are correct. In the beginning that was so; along with the F-51 and F-82. After the F-86 arrived in theatre, the aforementioned aircraft were mainly used as ground support.
This commercialization of the site is really a crap show and I think compromises the content. On the lighter side there's this. Someone once said "never let the truth get in the way of a good story".😉
This generation of American fighting men will always be legends they could have beaten anyone regardless of technology. The same men crushed the Third Reich, the Japanese, and the combined might of the communist east ! Their equal will never be seen again. The greatest generation!❤
These pilots were all very brave men - on both sides of this conflict. Sadly, the air superiority of the US and Allied forces was not matched by the US/Allied Armies, and the attempt to free what is now North Korea of the tyranny of an extreme and brutal communist dictatorship failed. The US was up against the combined forces of China, the USSR, and North Korean communists. North Korea is now the most brutal and repressive regime on Earth.
Bad leadership by Macarthur when his bad leadership in Philippines cost us bad at start of war. I assume racism against the Philippine troops gave him excuse for there poor performance but having most of his planes taken out on the ground several days after Pearl no excuse, No excuse for the several year supply of food the forts should have had. He should have resigned in protest if congress would no give them. And way more. In Korea the UN force was put together way to fast to get communication between armies figured out. When the North Korean Army fell apart the UN forces chased to fast and reached the Chinese Boarder with huge gaps between units that the Chinese were able to slip huge numbers of troops though thus when they surprise attacked many UN units cut off resulting in desperate fall back only stabilizing near the final boarder. A horrible loss. But under better Generalship the UN advance would have been a good deal slower so China could still come in and take a good portion of the North but there be no defeat of UN forces so maybe they could push in more forward the truce line area very mountainous so hard for either side to advance. Still thanks to China coming in freeing all of the north probably not possible.
The best jet weapon is the laser beam. Blind your opponent in a micro-second. It came into use in the eighties and it was ugly. The Russians started it and we responded in spades. After losing aircraft on both sides, the two parties came to an agreement to stop blinding each other’s pilots. Still holds today.
The fighters used in those fights were not the F86D in the video. The F86D (dog) is recognizable because of that large black nose which houses a radar system because it is an interceptor created to shoot down enemy bombers.
F-86D 'Sabre Dog' All-Weather interceptors were only armed with 'Mighty Mouse' missiles in a retractable ventral tray. Lovely aircraft, but little if at all, used in the Korean War. Saying that, it's pretty cool footage.
This is the Sabre you see here with the "nose". It's a big change of model, even though still called "Sabre". Name is really Sabre model D; and it loses the six machine guns, and has missile capability. The USAF was starting to think that missiles were going to be all that was needed. But this was right during the switch to that idea.
Cecil Foster was my uncle, my mother's brother. Though he was in the U.S. Army Air Force during WWII, he was not a pilot then, and did not fly as a fighter pilot then. He later became a fighter pilot, and his first action as a fighter pilot was in Korea. So, though we certainly benefited in Korea from the experience of our WWII fighter pilots, my uncle Cecil was not an example of that. He was, however a great fighter pilot.
Yes, they probably used film footage of the F-56D 'for illustration purposes'. It would have been better if they used stock footage of the F-86E and F, however.
The "Dog Sabres" or "D" models are easily recognized by the large black radome above the intake that is obvious in these POST Korean War F-86D. While "ruining" the beautiful aesthetics of the gorgeous F-86C, the F-86D was well worth it's "ugliness factor" as it held the advanced radar of a new ALL WEATHER fighter. But they did not fight in MiG Alley! It also made my scale R/C prop version of the F-86D a natural choice for a scale jet subject in the 70's before ducted fans and turbines.
@@benwatkins7600 For some reason that tiny little blip at the tip just did it for me, like a tiny little clit all excited to meet .....UNTIL they saw the size of that 30mm cannon LOL
@@benwatkins7600 For some reason that tiny little blip at the tip just did it for me, like a tiny little clit all excited to meet .....UNTIL they saw the size of that 30mm cannon LOL
@@dutchsailor6620 I agree these guys don't do decent research, their writing is abominable; their use of incorrect pictures and videos is constant BUT they do dig up interesting subjects. That's the only reason I watch. At 71 (Friday) I've been an avid amateur war historian from bronze to atomic age but mt emphasis is WW2. Check out my page. Just had both hips replaced so got a lotta time on m hands (literally lol)
One could argue that the prototype XF-16 was before the military got ahold of it and changed the specs for it. The only criteria it had to be built is that it was to be a "pure dogfighter." The Air Force powers that be got ahold of it and screwed it all up. The prototype even outclassed the F-15 at the time (which means it outclassed EVERYTHING).
I read about this increadible double kill...Amazing ! But I never read that the Migs had so much of an advantage. Also, it did have very heavy guns meant for intercepting bombers, with a slow rate of fire a Sabre could and did fly through on high G manuvers. Also, the Mig had a very low ammo count.
our BFFs the brits gave russians ( gift to stalin) drawings and tech specs of the pratt and whitney jet engine,so that joe would not see britain as hostile,jeez that worked out well russians flew many of those MIG 15s
Most of the footage shown appears to be of the F-86D/K/L variants, not the mighty F-86F of MiG Alley fame. But a great video nonetheless. Dad was an RCAF Sabre pilot. He said the MiG had a better climb and turn rate, but that the Sabre was much better in a dive and had a far superior gun sight system. As in any gunfight, only hits count. You can’t miss fast enough to win.😃
When two planes are flying towards each other, you have a closure rate. The speed of the American plane and the speed of the Soviet plane added together. Mach 2 in this case.
No, he mentioned a _CLOSURE RATE_ of Mach 2. When two aircraft are approaching each other head on, the closure rate is the _sum_ of both of their airspeeds.
They are all designed by German engineers and developed from research projects conducted by Adolf Busemann at the RLMs _Luftfahrtforschungsanstalt_ supersonic wind tunnel laboratories in Brauschweig..
When I was listening to the description of Foster trying to dodge the falling MiG, I was actually twisting my shoulders on the couch! ;-) I'm sure I helped him escape!
@@Rotorhead1651 some of the footage showing planes are Sabre dog (pointed nose plane) is variant f 86 Saber. This variant was used to stop bomber at night.
The F-86D was not armed with guns, only rockets and it was not used little - if all in - the Korean War. But I would rather see footage of any “F-86” rather than film of a completely different aircraf, as so often happens when real footage isn’t available, or available at prohibitive costs. Regardless, I very much enjoyed this video.
@@trollstabernacle8980 The RD-45 was a licensed copy of the Rolls-Royce Nene engine, but it was underpowered and few were built. The MiG-15 was powered by the VK-1 designed by Vladimir Klimov... not a Rolls-Royce engine.
The F-86 was like a Cadillac, smooth, stable and comfortable. The Mig 15 was like a Moskvich, drive it across a ploughed field with no ill effects but it was basic as hell. Poor pilots in an excellent plane vs well trained pilots in a very good aircraft made things about equal. Similar to the Spitfire pilots vs Me 109 pilots in the Battle of Britain.
"Most Savage Dogfight Trick" did not materialize in the video. THE TITLE IS BS CLICKBAIT. Also, the D Sabre did not fly in the war. It flew two years later.
@@deltavee2 Oh come on... have you never heard two old guys trying to out do each other with a better tale? A "wee bit" of exaggeration is a minor step in a good story! 🤣
@@1DEADBEEF1 Still a ratio of 10:1. Sutyagin had the most at 21. It is assumed that as many kills could not be matched up with US losses he over claimed by about 10. As did many others. And most kills were not F86s
@Ubique2927 his kills were verified (and I agree most were were not F87 but we know this because his kills were VERIFIED) however american pilots claimed more mig kills than actual migs used during the conflict, several other Soviet pilots had kills in the teens
Stop falling for it 😂 you chose to watch a video of a known click baiter. With the number of videos this dude pushes out on all his channels, you should expect some clickbait. Its hard finding real interesting stories all the time. You gotta spice it up a bit.
The MiG-15 was designed to kill B-29 bombers and that's why there was a mixed battery of 37mm and 23mm cannon--the .37mm was needed to inflict enough damage and the 23mm gave enough fire volume to increase hit probability on potential American fighter escorts. The American jets stuck with .50 caliber machine guns, abet uprated AN/M3 with a 50% higher cyclic fire rate because the newer .60 caliber and 20mm cannon were just not reliable enough and fewer projectiles launched per second meant fewer or no hits on rapidly maneuvering enemy fighters. At high altitudes, the .50 incendiaries did not ignite due to insufficient oxygen--that's why the F-89 and F-94 bomber killers were fielded firing swarms of free-flight rockets. Eventually the air-to-air guided missile became practical. Sabers of the Taiwan Air Force successfully used the first Sidewinders in combat against MiG-17's after finding out that the MiG-17 had a higher service ceiling and was "immune" to .50 caliber gunfire.
50 cal machine guns were obsolete by 1940 and antiqued by Korean War, the F-86s biggest flaw was its lack of proper auto cannons. The M1 20mm cannon was adopted by the USAAF and the US Navy specifications after 1940 was for all pursuit and fighter aircraft to be armed with them. Unfortunately production of this inch pattern copy of the Hispano-Suiza 404 20mm cannon was the biggest blunder of WW2. The M1 was so horribly unreliable that they could not pass inspection standards and were postponed. Several failed attempts to fix the problems all left America without any adequate aircraft weapon all the way into the Korean War. The German MK 213 30MM cannon rechambered for 20mm was finally adopted in the 1950s.
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I spoke to a test pilot in the late 80s who told me the F86 Sabre was the best plane he ever flew. He was dying and he flew ww2 and other post war planes. It always stuck w me.
The F-86 Sabre was an excellent German aircraft design built by the Americans... although it was flawed by its lack of proper auto cannons..
Ask the Man who survived. He'll know the Good Kit from Bad.
@@WilhelmKarstenthe only german part of the design was the swept wings
@@ScoopsTV-YDD Well, the first 6 aircraft were assembled with wing parts salvaged from Messerschmitt Me-262s
The entire airframe however is a German design, designed by Edgar Schmüd and his team of Messerschmitt engineers.
@WilhelmKarsten He left Germany in 1925 moved to the states in 31 , thats American
The footage of these MIG Sabre battles is amazing. These guys had extraordinary guts and skills and should be remembered.
14 people can fit into the intake of the F86. My aircraft mechanic school had one, and one day we students tried to find out, and to test our susceptibility to claustrophobia. All went well, until somebody passed gas…
Years ago, I remember talking to a Sabre pilot who felt his was the better plane. His argument was that the 86 was a very accurate gun platform and that the MiG didn't have the same control authority.
That's interesting, and straight from the source, very interesting indeed.
The pipper on the Sabre did calculation around leading or what some shooters call "deflection shooting". You don't want to line up directly upon the target because the object will have moved away from that place by the time your bullets enter that area. You want to "lead" the target so that the stream of bullets meets the travelling target at the crucial point of destruction (the speed of the bullets is a known figure or can be entered into the system). This kind of analysis can get complex when you are also moving in "dogfight" type aerobatic activity (so other vectors may matter). Having help is a great thing. This is like having a special shotgun which adjusts to hit the Clay Pidgeon you are looking at, rather than having to do all the work oneself.
The Mig's didn't have pressurized cockpits, so when an F-86 dove, they would let them run most of the time, because they had a severe condition that fogged the Mig's canopy when rapidly dropping from high altitude.
For what they were, that bridge in technology was coming fast, and they were some of the last gunfighters before the missile took over.
They definitely learned a lesson when it came to Vietnam, because the F-4 was only a missile platform when it started its combat mission, and they had to scramble to find a stopgap while they were being modified to carry a 20mm canon and an actual gun sight.
The aircraft built since, all have the ability to go to guns if called for.
It was better. The only problem was that it has a weaker engine. The Saber was better in every other aspect. Accurate gun, better handling, build quality, aerodynamics, ergonomics, etc.
This goes to show how important the engine was to give the Mig any advantage. I would say engine is at least 80% of what made a plane of that era. The Saber was also commonly going super sonic in dives, and Migs would essentially fail to keep up or risk falling apart in the same type of dive.
@@NoobNoobNewsThe Sabre's only major weakness was its lack of firepower and proper cannons, machine guns were obsolete by 1940..
The F86 just looks right. Beautiful lines.
The analog "computer" for targeting was some clever engineering.
Using valves/tubes in a pre-transistor era, it could to summing, differential and logarithmic calculations so that the pilot didn't have to guess the lead arc.
Yes, this is an analog computer. Literally true, and this was all before the transistor. Probably today, not many realize there were non-digital computers back in the day (B29 had an elaborate system for gunner stations and defense guns). It is true that any device which can do certain basic arithmetic, can store addresses and can execute instructions in sequence can be considered a "computer". You can use electronic components, reference voltages, or frequencies, and can thus do math, and then can provide for setting up simple "programs" within the gear. It turns out electronic components lend themselves to things like logarithm or exponent in addition to simpler functions. Having help with the targeting on a fast moving jet, with a moving target like another jet would be a great benefit. There are only so many bullets in your wings.
@@crtune Yup, the first op amps were made from triode vacuum tubes.
The F 86 was a beautiful airplane. Still is today
Yup...absolutely.
The USAF tactics against superior MiGs reminds one of the Thach Weave maneuver used by Wildcat pilots against the Zeros during WW2…
Yes, a weave approach was well known to the trained pilots of USAF. They also seem to have done good work around dealing with the higher altitude capability of the Mig-15. I think Russia had focused upon extreme high altitude interceptor designs out of fears generated from B29 having had an improved altitude. Soon Russia actually got a copy of a B29. Both USA and Russia reacted quite quickly to what they determined to be going on with the opponent.
True, but ironically because the Mig pilots didn't have G-suits, F-86 pilots were able to pull higher G maneuvers.
@@DoBraveryFPS Gear really matters. I have nothing but admiration for these pilots, really on both sides. The people at the controls of these planes are fare easier to relate to than the people in the Pentagon or in office.
Superior training philosophy and the freedom enjoyed by our military members to think on their feet and implement on their own when the command structure breaks down has something to do with it. Most enemies that we've fought against couldn't take a sht without orders.
Omg the Sabre was my favorite fighter jet as a kid. I fell asleep under my Testors' F-86 and MiG 17 locked in eternal dogfight in the hallowed airspace above my bed. (psst. Dad helped me add the destructive effects of the Sabre's guns on the MiG by burning holes with his soldering pen in the MiG's tail and wing.)
You conitinually show the F-86D Sabre Dog while talking about the guns on the F-86. The D model was an interceptor and did not have guns. It instead had folding fin rockets in a retractable tray on the bottom of the fuselage.
An often overlooked flaw of the Mig was it's inferior centrifugal flow engine vs. the Sabre's axial flow turbine
And their pilots had no pressure suits.
The Sabres had an advantage that was not immediately obvious, better cockpit heat.
Because of this when the Sabres could entice a Mig to dive after them from high altitude, as soon as both aircraft hit the warmer more humid air at lower altitude the Mig's cockpit glass would quickly frost over on the inside while the Sabre's heaters kept their glass clear. Blind Mig equals ded Mig. The Mig pilots figured it out of course and the Sabres had a way to dive out of a tangle and re-join later.
The MiG 15 also had a disadvantage in that its controls were not hydraulically actuated, but rather by cable and pulley. This required much strength on the part of the pilot.
Soviets: "Mig-15 is much superior 'pilot's' plane!"
@@Pau_Pau9 I asked a late friend, who was an aerospace engineer, about the MiG-15's maneuverability. According to him, that plane was, indeed, more capable of maneuvering, but it took a lot of force on part of the pilot. From other sources I learned that its weaponry was, indeed, fearsome, and it could reach high altitude faster than the F-86 Saber. However, as Yeager found out when he flew a captured example, it could not break the sound barrier. If memory serves, beyond Mach 0.93 it was a handful, and around Mach 0.96 the plane was next to impossible to handle. The next MiG fighter, the 17, could indeed break the sound barrier - but had a tendency to pitch up and was not fitted with an all-flying tailplane, a feature left up to the MiG-19.
So, was it a much superior 'pilot' plane? That depends on who's the pilot. In the hands of novel, relatively green pilots and facing well-trained Saber drivers, the odds were against them. Flown by expert Soviet pilots, the odds were more evenly matched, but I'd say they were closely matched, as no plane had every advantage to it.
@@Pau_Pau9 I guess the 10 to 1 ratio was just bad aiming by American pilots and bad sight alignment by American aircraft mechanics.
@@robertodeleon-gonzalez9844 The Mig15 was extremely maneuverable. But because Mig pilots did not have G-suits at the time, F-86 pilots could pull higher G-turns than the Mig. I heard by 1 G. On several occasions US pilots witnessed Mig pilots pulling high G's blackout and fall out of control.
@@DoBraveryFPS I didn't know that. And in my opinion, not providing G-suits to pilots subjected to such high-G loads was almost criminal
I know a fella who's still around. One of the last P-51 pilots in Korea.
Didn’t realize that we had F-86D Sabre Dogs in the Korean Conflict…
I'm shocked, but not entirely surprised you didn't realise it.
On a side note the Mig-15 had a British Rolls Royce engine.
It was the Rolls Royce Neimen Engine an engine the British government sidelined and sold to the Soviet Union (Which they reversed engineered and put it into the Mig-15.)
Yes, oddly Britain continued to use the cooperation approach of the war, even after the entire conflict was over. Perhaps they realized that it was only a matter of time before far more advanced jet engines were developed. I know they had a lot of bills to pay and needed money, so that may have been a big factor. Right at 1944 and 1945 Britain was a leader in jet engine technology. The two engineers who really birthed jets were Frank Whittle (Britain) and Hans von Ohain (Germany). Whittle tried to develop his own company, but eventually Rolls Royce just pushed him away from the center of things. Herr von Ohain went with Mr. Heinkel, who adored speed more than any other aspect of aviation. Eventually the two engineers got to meet one another and became friends.
@@crtuneAnd the British to this day wonder why we wouldn't share nuclear secrets with them .
The design plans were won in a game of pool 🎱.
The MiG-15 was not powered by the RD-45 (Soviet copy of the Rolls-Royce Nene).
It was powered by the VK-1 designed by Vladimir Klimov.
The North American Sabre with the "nose" (a radar dome) is called "Sabre model D". It's considered a different model. The regular F86 Sabre is all air intake in the front, where the Super Sabre has both radome and air intake.
The F-86D was not the "Super Sabre". That was the F-100.
Newsflash: It's not "The Plane Who Downed Two Jets with One Burst". That would be "The Pilot Who Downed Two Jets with One Burst".
And Chuck Yeager downed two enemy aircraft with NO burst. On 10/12 44, as he moved into firing position on a ME-109, the pilot broke hard to port before he opened fire and collided with his wingman. Both pilots bailed out of their aircraft, and Yeager got credit for two of his five kills that day.
The stats show that Russian WW2 aces vs USAF WW2 aces was a very close match in these jets.
Once the Russians were rotated out and replaced by newer and novice Chinese and N Korean pilots, the odds were heavily in favour of the US pilots. The later Sabres were better but the difference in pilot qualities was key.
Be advised that a LOT of either F-86D or F-86K's are shown here. None of them were ever in Korea.
And they did not have guns. Instead they had those folding fin rockets in the tray under the fuselage
The first jet-to-jet encounters occurred BEFORE the F-86 deployed to Korea, both USAF F-80’s and USN F9F’s had engaged MiG-15’s in November 1950.
That was mentioned.
Stop showing the F-86D (Dog model with the black radar nose) ! There is plenty of F-86 footage out there!
It is irritating!
Yep. The F-86D had no guns. Only unguided rockets in a belly pod.
This channel tends to be loose with specific choice of images. I get it that they are pounding out this content, but those of us who really love this old aircraft tend to notice all the details. The F86 with the nose is truly different.
The Dutch airforce roundels don't make it more believable. BS channel...
I love your documentarys thank you for the work!
The F-86A models were the first to fight the Mig-15 in the Korean war. This video clearly shows photos of the F-86D Sabre Dog in this report. The Sabre Dog did not get into Korea until after the Korean war. I don't know about this channel.
That struck me immediately too! I guess they had footage of the "Dog Sabre" but not the A version...
@@theforceiswithme8804 im probably wrong but did they not have f84s and corsairs (and the f80 ofc) fighting mig 15s before any sabre
I agree. Lame
@@Ducc_of_Quacc You are correct. In the beginning that was so; along with the F-51 and F-82. After the F-86 arrived in theatre, the aforementioned aircraft were mainly used as ground support.
This commercialization of the site is really a crap show and I think compromises the content.
On the lighter side there's this.
Someone once said "never let the truth get in the way of a good story".😉
That's your best commercial segue yet. Very smooth.
This generation of American fighting men will always be legends they could have beaten anyone regardless of technology. The same men crushed the Third Reich, the Japanese, and the combined might of the communist east ! Their equal will never be seen again. The greatest generation!❤
An excellent documentary on the F-86 Saber jet & its role in MiG Alley. Thanks for sharing. ☺️
Three generations with six decades of life experience
Nature gave us one tongue and two ears so we could hear twice as much as we speak.
These pilots were all very brave men - on both sides of this conflict. Sadly, the air superiority of the US and Allied forces was not matched by the US/Allied Armies, and the attempt to free what is now North Korea of the tyranny of an extreme and brutal communist dictatorship failed.
The US was up against the combined forces of China, the USSR, and North Korean communists.
North Korea is now the most brutal and repressive regime on Earth.
Bad leadership by Macarthur when his bad leadership in Philippines cost us bad at start of war. I assume racism against the Philippine troops gave him excuse for there poor performance but having most of his planes taken out on the ground several days after Pearl no excuse, No excuse for the several year supply of food the forts should have had. He should have resigned in protest if congress would no give them. And way more.
In Korea the UN force was put together way to fast to get communication between armies figured out. When the North Korean Army fell apart the UN forces chased to fast and reached the Chinese Boarder with huge gaps between units that the Chinese were able to slip huge numbers of troops though thus when they surprise attacked many UN units cut off resulting in desperate fall back only stabilizing near the final boarder.
A horrible loss.
But under better Generalship the UN advance would have been a good deal slower so China could still come in and take a good portion of the North but there be no defeat of UN forces so maybe they could push in more forward the truce line area very mountainous so hard for either side to advance. Still thanks to China coming in freeing all of the north probably not possible.
Now the same commies children are in the US Administration.
Best thing about being stationed at PAX River was the collection of vintage aircraft that are flown daily. The MIG-15 is tiny compared to the F-86.
That would be awesome to see. I’ve only ever seen those on static display. Jealous!
The best jet weapon is the laser beam. Blind your opponent in a micro-second. It came into use in the eighties and it was ugly. The Russians started it and we responded in spades. After losing aircraft on both sides, the two parties came to an agreement to stop blinding each other’s pilots. Still holds today.
Weve got to have a dream if we are going to make a dream come true.
I can't imagine how they engineered a radar controlled gunsight back then. A video just about that would be equally interesting.
fuquing reckless sending that Sabre into battle without guns correctly sighted-in. Whoop that Chief.
Tldr: they flew just below the contrails and used radar to shoot accurately.
Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will.
The fighters used in those fights were not the F86D in the video. The F86D (dog) is recognizable because of that large black nose which houses a radar system because it is an interceptor created to shoot down enemy bombers.
At 12:06, as I understand it, the U.S. military didn't use Cordite.
F-86D 'Sabre Dog' All-Weather interceptors were only armed with 'Mighty Mouse' missiles in a retractable ventral tray. Lovely aircraft, but little if at all, used in the Korean War.
Saying that, it's pretty cool footage.
This is the Sabre you see here with the "nose". It's a big change of model, even though still called "Sabre". Name is really Sabre model D; and it loses the six machine guns, and has missile capability. The USAF was starting to think that missiles were going to be all that was needed. But this was right during the switch to that idea.
Yikes! Be prepared for an adrenaline hit when you see costs of those watches.
Cecil Foster was my uncle, my mother's brother. Though he was in the U.S. Army Air Force during WWII, he was not a pilot then, and did not fly as a fighter pilot then. He later became a fighter pilot, and his first action as a fighter pilot was in Korea. So, though we certainly benefited in Korea from the experience of our WWII fighter pilots, my uncle Cecil was not an example of that. He was, however a great fighter pilot.
I could add that uncle Cecil shot down 9 Migs and was awarded 2 silver Stars during the Korean conflict.
The Sabre Dog had no guns per se, only missiles. LOL
Yes, they probably used film footage of the F-56D 'for illustration purposes'.
It would have been better if they used stock footage of the F-86E and F, however.
And the ones shown here had a effective firing range from the Netherlands to Korea. This channel is total BS.
“First dogfight since WW2” bro it was only like a decade after
The best and last jet dogfighter would have been the Folland Gnat.
Since WWII, there were less than five years between the wars.
The "Dog Sabres" or "D" models are easily recognized by the large black radome above the intake that is obvious in these POST Korean War F-86D. While "ruining" the beautiful aesthetics of the gorgeous F-86C, the F-86D was well worth it's "ugliness factor" as it held the advanced radar of a new ALL WEATHER fighter. But they did not fight in MiG Alley! It also made my scale R/C prop version of the F-86D a natural choice for a scale jet subject in the 70's before ducted fans and turbines.
I always thought that the "D" was the best looking of all the F86. Just my humble opinion.
@@benwatkins7600 For some reason that tiny little blip at the tip just did it for me, like a tiny little clit all excited to meet .....UNTIL they saw the size of that 30mm cannon LOL
@@benwatkins7600
For some reason that tiny little blip at the tip just did it for me, like a tiny little clit all excited to meet .....UNTIL they saw the size of that 30mm cannon LOL
The ones shown here are also easily recognized by the Dutch roundels. This channel is a joke...
@@dutchsailor6620 I agree these guys don't do decent research, their writing is abominable; their use of incorrect pictures and videos is constant BUT they do dig up interesting subjects. That's the only reason I watch. At 71 (Friday) I've been an avid amateur war historian from bronze to atomic age but mt emphasis is WW2. Check out my page. Just had both hips replaced so got a lotta time on m hands (literally lol)
I didn't know Sabredogs were used in the Korean War.
Tally analysis shows that against experienced Soviet pilots, the odds were close to even. Most Migs shot down were piloted by newbies
One could argue that the prototype XF-16 was before the military got ahold of it and changed the specs for it. The only criteria it had to be built is that it was to be a "pure dogfighter." The Air Force powers that be got ahold of it and screwed it all up. The prototype even outclassed the F-15 at the time (which means it outclassed EVERYTHING).
Chuck Yeager said it was the Pilot not the Plane..I,l take His word on it
Two MiGs in one burst, how lucky is that? I must read up on Foster. Thank you Dark Skies. 👍🏻
And Australia improved on it. Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation CA-27, the Avon Sabre.
Why are there clips of the last version of the F86 shown early in this doc film, when the earliest version should have been?
Really excellent video! 😊
NATO had a pretty cool code name for the MiG-15
Interesting it's been scrubbed from almost everywhere. Almost as if some people were in league with the Communists.
@@Saxxonknight Nah, it's just that most people are over the age of 12.
The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be.
This history lesson is so relevant right now with the F-16's in Ukraine...
I read about this increadible double kill...Amazing ! But I never read that the Migs had so much of an advantage. Also, it did have very heavy guns meant for intercepting bombers, with a slow rate of fire a Sabre could and did fly through on high G manuvers. Also, the Mig had a very low ammo count.
Great story telling 👍
our BFFs the brits gave russians ( gift to stalin) drawings and tech specs of the pratt and whitney jet engine,so that joe would not see britain as hostile,jeez that worked out well
russians flew many of those MIG 15s
Using multiple gun aimed at on offset to mimic bullet spread of a shotgun? What an excellent dogfighting weapon.
Most of the footage shown appears to be of the F-86D/K/L variants, not the mighty F-86F of MiG Alley fame. But a great video nonetheless. Dad was an RCAF Sabre pilot. He said the MiG had a better climb and turn rate, but that the Sabre was much better in a dive and had a far superior gun sight system. As in any gunfight, only hits count. You can’t miss fast enough to win.😃
Great program !!! No equal to it !!!😊
Showing Sabre Dogs just to mess with us 🗿
They had the first #1 dogfighter in the P51D 😉 😉
The P-51 wasn't a great dogfighter. It just got good mileage.
@@EBDavis111 It was ok, though my #1 would always be the Mark 14 Spitfire
The narrator said the Mig 15s were approaching close the MACH 2! I don't quite think so! Maybe Mach 1..
Closure rate.
The Mig-15 could not go supersonic in a dive, unlike the Saber.
When two planes are flying towards each other, you have a closure rate. The speed of the American plane and the speed of the Soviet plane added together. Mach 2 in this case.
No, he mentioned a _CLOSURE RATE_ of Mach 2. When two aircraft are approaching each other head on, the closure rate is the _sum_ of both of their airspeeds.
Would be cool if they colorized these dogfights.
This episode was much better having fast forwarded through the cold open and the commercial
16:18 🎵 _Hallelujah, It's Raining MiG's....._ 🎵🤣
The best use of the F86D was by the JSDF shooting at Godzilla.
I remember my father being gone to the 319th FIS.
Everything is perfect in the universe even your desire to improve it.
Notice the similarities between the Mig-15 and F-86 and both resemble the German ME-262
They are all designed by German engineers and developed from research projects conducted by Adolf Busemann at the RLMs _Luftfahrtforschungsanstalt_ supersonic wind tunnel laboratories in Brauschweig..
the po-2s having a better kill ratio on f86s than the mig15s really speaks a lot
When I was listening to the description of Foster trying to dodge the falling MiG, I was actually twisting my shoulders on the couch! ;-)
I'm sure I helped him escape!
To be great is to be misunderstood.
These F-86's in this video were F-86D's and usually were armed with rockets.
Neither the MiG-15 nor F-86 were capable of Mach flight so no way could they approach a closure rate of Mach 2
Maybe in a dive?
300+, mph no way mach any damn thing
I never really understood how pilots could differentiate the 2 planes from one another
The F-86D wasn't in Korea until 1955
Source?
@Rotorhead1651 don't confuse the Sabre Dog with the Sabre Jet, A-C models
so this is the real round table
You have wrong Mark of Sabre in Foster's sequence
It wasn't Mig Alley.........it was Sabre Alley.
The Australia had F86 Sabre with 30mm canon’s and power by Rolls Royce Avon engine
Using Sabre dog footage?
"dog footage"?! Do you (perhaps) mean gun camera footage?
@@Rotorhead1651 some of the footage showing planes are Sabre dog (pointed nose plane) is variant f 86 Saber. This variant was used to stop bomber at night.
Footage of that version is much more common and easier to find than any other Sabre version.
The F-86D was not armed with guns, only rockets and it was not used little - if all in - the Korean War. But I would rather see footage of any “F-86” rather than film of a completely different aircraf, as so often happens when real footage isn’t available, or available at prohibitive costs. Regardless, I very much enjoyed this video.
i think it's pretty cool
Can someome explain how Foster bailed out of his plane over hostile territory at 15:13, but at 15:26 he's pushing his aircraft to its limits?
Thank you UK..... They gave jet engine technology for the Mig15's.....
The MiG-15 was powered by the VK-1 designed by Vladimir Klimov.
@@WilhelmKarsten UK exported Rolls Royce engines to USSR in 1946 which the soviets copied.
@@trollstabernacle8980 The RD-45 was a licensed copy of the Rolls-Royce Nene engine, but it was underpowered and few were built.
The MiG-15 was powered by the VK-1 designed by Vladimir Klimov... not a Rolls-Royce engine.
Probably a few movies could be made in the skies of Mig Alley.
Great story! Thanks.
Experience almost always wins over the rookie in the better machine. Just look at auto racing.
50 caliber, let's check it out.
The F-86 was like a Cadillac, smooth, stable and comfortable. The Mig 15 was like a Moskvich, drive it across a ploughed field with no ill effects but it was basic as hell.
Poor pilots in an excellent plane vs well trained pilots in a very good aircraft made things about equal. Similar to the Spitfire pilots vs Me 109 pilots in the Battle of Britain.
"Most Savage Dogfight Trick" did not materialize in the video. THE TITLE IS BS CLICKBAIT.
Also, the D Sabre did not fly in the war. It flew two years later.
Uh the contrail layer trick? Did you watch the video?
@@BURDYMAN777
Har. You call that a SAVAGE Dogfight Trick? More like handbags at 20 paces.
@@deltavee2 Oh come on... have you never heard two old guys trying to out do each other with a better tale? A "wee bit" of exaggeration is a minor step in a good story! 🤣
At a air museum in Canada a docent told me "it was a good plane but i could out turn it in my MIG" Ex Checkaslavan Airforce
10:1 ratio could not all be down to experience. Maybe the MIG was not that good.
The MIG wasn't better the the F-86. No hydraulic controls, flying tail, no advanced gunsight and slow firing cannons with limited ammunition supply.
@@UkrainianPaulie And don't forget just plain a whole lot of US pilots with much better training and experience...when the ruskies weren't around.
Lol you had several soviet aces with around 15-25 kills
@@1DEADBEEF1
Still a ratio of 10:1.
Sutyagin had the most at 21.
It is assumed that as many kills could not be matched up with US losses he over claimed by about 10. As did many others.
And most kills were not F86s
@Ubique2927 his kills were verified (and I agree most were were not F87 but we know this because his kills were VERIFIED) however american pilots claimed more mig kills than actual migs used during the conflict, several other Soviet pilots had kills in the teens
Stop using clickbait and irrelevant thumbnails
Stop nit picking. Free country, don’t have to watch.
Stop falling for it 😂 you chose to watch a video of a known click baiter. With the number of videos this dude pushes out on all his channels, you should expect some clickbait. Its hard finding real interesting stories all the time. You gotta spice it up a bit.
The MiG-15 was designed to kill B-29 bombers and that's why there was a mixed battery of 37mm and 23mm cannon--the .37mm was needed to inflict enough damage and the 23mm gave enough fire volume to increase hit probability on potential American fighter escorts.
The American jets stuck with .50 caliber machine guns, abet uprated AN/M3 with a 50% higher cyclic fire rate because the newer .60 caliber and 20mm cannon were just not reliable enough and fewer projectiles launched per second meant fewer or no hits on rapidly maneuvering enemy fighters. At high altitudes, the .50 incendiaries did not ignite due to insufficient oxygen--that's why the F-89 and F-94 bomber killers were fielded firing swarms of free-flight rockets. Eventually the air-to-air guided missile became practical. Sabers of the Taiwan Air Force successfully used the first Sidewinders in combat against MiG-17's after finding out that the MiG-17 had a higher service ceiling and was "immune" to .50 caliber gunfire.
50 cal machine guns were obsolete by 1940 and antiqued by Korean War, the F-86s biggest flaw was its lack of proper auto cannons.
The M1 20mm cannon was adopted by the USAAF and the US Navy specifications after 1940 was for all pursuit and fighter aircraft to be armed with them.
Unfortunately production of this inch pattern copy of the Hispano-Suiza 404 20mm cannon was the biggest blunder of WW2.
The M1 was so horribly unreliable that they could not pass inspection standards and were postponed.
Several failed attempts to fix the problems all left America without any adequate aircraft weapon all the way into the Korean War.
The German MK 213 30MM cannon rechambered for 20mm was finally adopted in the 1950s.
RCAF Canadair ( y'know the "big" engine" ) Sabre gets guns harmonised. Some decades later "cool picture" gets used for some kinda video "USAF"