Where The Bene Gesserit Dare Not Look | Alia's Contradiction Debunked | Dune Lore
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- Опубліковано 19 гру 2022
- An explanation of the concept of Other Memory (Genetic Memory) and a breakdown of whether or not Frank Herbert contradicts himself in his later works where Alia Atreides and other women come to have access to male memories. Spoiler Warning if you are unfamiliar with Frank Herbert’s Dune Series.
The Chaos of the Pre-Born | Ancestral Possession | Dune Lore Video: • The Chaos of the Pre-B...
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Hopefully we will get to see a Water of Life ceremony in Dune Part Two. Great coverage of Dune as always 🙌
YES I really hope we get the Water of Life as well as Jamis' funeral! Thanks Rälí!
@@NerdCookies a tear from Timmy too! 😢
@@secretsofdune Usul gives water for the dead.
theatlantic magazine article - The Weird, Ever-Evolving Story of DNA - dna from previous babies still exist in the mother's womb that can be absorbed by subsequent siblings. Thus both Alia and Ghanima had male cells of their brothers around them to absorb have access during preborn existence. That's my headcanon using modern fact research on prenatal biology development.
Can't wait to see Denis's take on this
There's another explanation for this that you may find interesting and which I feel better explains this.
It is possible that genetic memory may be encoded in Chromosomes, hence males (XY) could potentially access both sides of their ancestry (but are too psychologically weak to do so) while females (XX) could only access the memories of their female ancestors and experience a fearful void when trying to see into the male past.
What makes Ghanima and Alia special cases is not just being pre-born it's that during their awakening they were able to share other memory with a male of their genetic lineage.
Alia gained it from Paul during the spice orgy following Jessica's spice agony and Ghani gained it from Leto with whom she shared a womb.
I was just about to mention the chromosomes.
That is the best description I've seen yet. Very interesting.
Don't call it the spice orgy please!
@@0sm1um76 : Why the hell not? An orgy is a gratuitous indulgent excess of something. Look it up.
@@0sm1um76 Too spicy for you?
I consider myself as having a Bachelor’s In Dune Lore. You clearly have already attained your Master’s degree in Dune-ology. Excellent video!
At 43 years old, I just finished reading the first trilogy... my life is changed forever... the best reading experience I ever had, literally mind-blowing!
The twins had each other was the major point of their avoidance of possession up to the final fight with the mother that was ultimately won by the twins having to separate for the Golden Road. Everything else was very well thought out and matches the lore perfectly.
Leto said at the end of Children of Dune, he did not avoid posession. What he did was accept all his past memories and all of them lived through him.
Haram took control to an extent
Ghanima used self-hypnosis to block other egos from taking over. In her mind, she created a door of sorts to block other egos and Chani's ego acted as a guardian of the door. Alia wasn't so lucky, even her mother's Ego-Memory, Jessica was afraid of her. She didn't have a benevolent ego protecting her. Leto could have done the same as Ghanima but he chose not to. He concluded that a single ego, no matter how strong is not enough to achieve the Golden Path. So in his mind, he created a council, like a bee hive. While he remained as the core, the queen bee, he drew from other minds as they drew from him, Harum chief among them.
indeed.
I agree, it's not a contradiction of the lore, it's an evolution of it. A contradiction would have been us seeing another creation of a Reverend Mother able to look into the place they cannot go, but what we saw was that in actual fact there isn't only one kind of pre-born, and some of them can go where others cannot. It was a smart way of meeting plot demands.
I love the way you put this. I think a huge theme of the series is the importance and inevitability of the unpredictable, or at least the unpredicted, to the point that the God Emperor himself schemed to put humanity beyond the bounds of his own prescience. Just because no one thought a woman could see her male-line ancestral memories and maintain self-control doesn’t mean that it could never happen; it just means that no one thought it would or had seen it before. Paul’s time, with the genetic line at the point of producing a Kwisatz Haderach, was rife with unprecedented scenarios.
Ghanima is an underdeveloped and underutilized character who ought to be one of the most powerful and central figures in the saga, and you point out one reason: she is born with full ancestral memory but never succumbs to abomination. That she stays in a supporting role to Leto II streamlines the story but doesn't make sense to me. If the new movie series gets as far as Children of Dune, I actually hope it diverges enough from the book to give Ghanima a larger part, fully complementing her brother.
It may be that being twins with Leto gave her the grounding needed.
@@2fathomsdeeper the self hypnosis ghanima employed to fool a truth sayer that her brother died was so deep that it allowed her to escape abomination. Leto admitted he didn't truly escape but managed it carefully.
@@2fathomsdeeperIn a previous video NC explained that she believes Ghanima had the help of her twin brother while in the womb when they were both were flooded with ancestral memory.
While it has been years since I read the books last (thus don't recall all the details exactly) but this theory/reasoning sounds plausible to me.
In a fan fiction I'm making notes on: her ghola is brought back
@@earlware4322 makes sense considering baby Leto intervention to help Paul. I think they both helped each other in the womb, because they saw themselves as halves of a whole until Ghanima used the autohypnosis and Leto went through Spice Agony+Fussion with the sandtrouts. Poor Alia was all alone
What I love about you lore videos,is that you bring up things out side that normal lore. Take this video, the idea of the female Pre Born being able to see both male and female memories as a contradiction in the story never came up when I read, watched the Sci-Fi Channel mini-series. It just happened. Your explanation to me falls under the "Well, Dud, of course that is why" because it does fit with what came before in the story.
It wasn't just Chani who guarded her mind, her brother helped her as well, in fact they helped each other prevent abomination, Aliya never had that which is another reason why she succumbed because the BG killed off all abominations before they could mature, no one spent the time necessary to examine what was happening in these preborn minds with the intention of having that knowledge available to identify what those pre-born people go through and how might someone help them through it medically and psychologically. Ironically had they not all been killed there might have been a system of curing them of their abomination state preventing them from becoming monsters.
Alia's tragic struggle, and "character development" if such a term even applies, makes her one of the most compelling characters ever in my opinion.
Fascinating point of view. This is why your videos and explanations are so important to the community
I am so hopeful that this will end up being a series that encompasses the first four books...I know that God Emperor of Dune will be difficult to do and do well but...here's to hope.
Well said, this makes sense.
Although it makes me wonder, with the Bene Gesserit knowing what an "abomination" is capable of, why not try harder to make that work? Maybe they purposefully produced them in the past, tried to keep them sane, but them getting possessed was so common they gave up and went with the Kwisatz Haderach idea instead?
As always thank you so very much for the video, and best wishes of the season.
Damn I've been jumping from one video to another for hours and still can't get enough of Nerd Cookies. Ok bye now let me go watch like 10 more of your beautiful videos😂
Love the videos. Awesome as always to you and your team.
Appreciate it!
More lore!!! Well done, as usual!
Never thought it was a contradiction, but this video explains the subject well. Thank you!
Ghanima got lucky while Alia got super unlucky. I like how you refer to pre-born as the next step which it is or probably was thought of, but it’s literally a shot in the dark. Anyone untrained and prepared for a situation tends suffer greatly.
Thanks, will keep this in mind for when I get that far down the list of Dune novels (pretty slack, read the first one only, and that was decades ago).
You're videos are great! I appreciate the work put into these and detail and production quality. Thank you!
These Dune videos are always interesting to see. Keep up the great work!
Looking forward to your talking more about the later episode of dune. Like the Honored Matre, chapterhouse, Junction, ... etc.,
For me, the fact that it was always said that the reason Bene Geserit didn't have the male ancestral memories was our off fear and disgust makes the idea of preborns having it more plausible. Not everyone has the same fear.
In messiah ( book two ) reverend mother mohiam) as well as thinking alia is an abomination. Also thinks of her as a reverend mother. ( throne room , audience ante room ) . Also in that scene , Paul seems to understand whsts wrong with alia ( which he is pondering earlier in the book ) like this is the last time they will be brother snd sister and completely on the same page . Their paths diverge.
Very welll done. Just finished re-reading (re-re-re....) Dune book 3, which dives into the minds of Alia, Ghanima, & Leto II as pre-born. Compliments on the visuals used for this one -- all seem to be the painted water-color version of otherwise live-action still images. Very nicely done.
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_Nota bene_ spoilers for Villeneuve's Dune Part 2 movie and Herberts's Dune 2 and Dune 3 books are below.
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Alia indeed is Abomination and we note which of her ancestors -- a male ancestor, I might add -- ends up running the show. Jessica, Ghani, Leto II, and Duncan 2.0 can see that Alia lost the abomination battle. (Paul/The Preacher also knows that.)
Looking forward to Villeneuves' Dune Part 2 and to your YT channel's Dune content.
Excellent explanation! Great channel!
Excellent vid as ever. Have a happy holidays team nerd cookies.
The explanation does indeed make sense. And the Pre-Born concept is endlessly fascinating.
Frank Herbert: "Everyone could have supernatural abilities if they would just *MAN HARDER."*
I enjoy this! Please keep up the good work!
Yay cookies today.
Perfect for a day off work.
thank you for all you do
Very insightful and informative analysis!
Yes, you definately explained what I was always questioning for decades.
Very insightful! Thanks. Love your videos
Thank you!
Evolution, indeed. Your logic expands the reach of the lore, much like the intention of the Golden Path. Well done.
Thanks nick and Elaine. Intriguing title
Excellent video!
Yes, your explenation makes perfect, and very good sense.
A tornado let lose on a pill of straw.
What should be a contradiction is the fact that a "spice rich diet" doesn't pre-awaken all fremen. They can't avoid spice in the desert, doesn't make sense to me.
I love these videos
I don't try hard to find explanations to many aspects of Dune's lore. Since it's not the most hard SF.
But I like it that way. I also don't mind if a narrative changes the rules as long as that makes the story good or the change is treated as the big event that it is in a satisfactory way.
Dune also has a way of not clearly showing when the interpretations of characters end and the real lore stuff actually begins. I also like this.
Woo hoo Number one. First watch. Thak you Love your work
I identify as first!
Yes , this explanation makes sense to me, I had come to similar conclusions in 1993 when I had read the first 3 books for the 1st time.
love the art style here btw , who made it ..?🥳🥳😍😍😀😀
Slightly off topic but I really want to watch the Dune mini series.
Excellent work...
I’ve always taken the view like in the (was it?) Wheel Of Time fantasy novels: women weave magic or, in this case, see the past, present and future on one direction of an interlocking pattern, men weave on the perpendicular web. There are similarities in the ideas of men dying or going max in the attempt. I know this makes me seem like a teenager again and a bit naive, but it’s an interesting way to view the sub space or even mystic Ether. They want a man to see where they cannot, but I cannot explain the vortex. Paul, I believe, states that he is something different and is a fulcrum making me think this is why he can see both weaves.
Ganima and Leto had the benefit of genetics.
Very cool, thanks
I thought in the original Dune that the explanation for male memories was linked to the y gene. I'm not sure that from an artcle I read not just the book. Hard to rember.
That is the explanation I heard. Women have XX chromosomes, thus can only see the female lineage. Meanwhile, men have both XY chromosomes, hence can see in both masculine and feminine pasts.
@@toh786 They can access male past but risk possesion, the same happen to preborn. And the place they fear to see is more connected to prescience, yet another dangerous stuff for all not strong enough (both males and females).
BG breeding program makes sence as they connect whole empire through blood relations (one House after another) so their ultimate product would be "emperor of all Houses". This would secure him power to control, although it was fail-safe from BG. They need their own "man" (literraly) to be on the throne and him to be loyal to all Houses - as he would know firsthand all that is true.
I always thought that some of Alia’s problems were due to that ‘Kwisatz Haderach syndrome’. Jessica was far along in the BG breeding scheme, basically at the end of it. It was certain that any of her children would be remarkable, both Paul and Alia, and Alia’s exposure to the Water of Lofe as basically a blank slate certainly didn’t do her mental health any favors. Ghanima is female, but she is also the daughter of the Kwisatz Haderach. To me, that would imply the Bene Gesserit rule book is thrown out the window. She was a new situation entirely.
Dang it. Where is the sequel already? Im starving for it....
It’s almost like the sisters “know” they’re women and therefor can only tap that side of memory pool, where a pre-born female fetus doesn’t know anything yet, they don’t know the difference between fingers and toes or what male and female is. Likely when they begin to explore their now unlocked ancestral memories they can dive into the darkness of the male memories because they don’t know any better, the left is the same as the right to them and the exploration into every memory destabilizes them mentally…..just a hypothesis.
I was just thinking about the twins the other day. I couldn't remember how they became preborn. I do remember Leto II formed a committee of equally strong and dominant egos between his ancestral egos that could check and balance each other so no one ego could take possession of him. I couldn't remember if Ghani used the same technique or figured out a different way of protecting herself from possession. I guess when your father is a Kwisatz Haderach, anything is possible.
Ghanima used self-hypnosis to block other egos from taking over. In her mind, she created a door of sorts to block other egos and Chani's ego acted as a guardian of the door. Alia wasn't so lucky, even her mother Jessica was afraid of her. She didn't have a benevolent ego protecting her.
What i always want to ask. You are a dune fan and a female: which organisation would you join if you have to choose? The cold and pragmatic Bene Gesserit or the infamous and ruthless Honored Matres?
Bene Gesserit for sure.
Sick, I really appreciate you touching on the subject and the challenges riddled with combating all of the personalities and ego types within the minds of the pre-born AKA abomination. What a scary concept, to be overtaken from an internal personality yikes!
Good dxplanation
Makes total sense to me......thanks.
Number 9, So sick. Cookies did you see Dune part 2 wrapped production?
oo got to go look that up.
I've always been kinda disappointed the Dune series never took this genetic memory to the next level. Going alllll the way back to humanity's first ancestor. Whoever that might be. Adam and Eve? There's gotta be a source. A starting point. The oldest ancestor. I always hoped the God Emperor would do it. That would be trippy as hell.
I had read the books multiple times, as well as seen all the movie adaptations (multiple-multiple times) and never once did I clock it that the "place a Bene Gessuit dares not look" was male ancestral memory...🤔
I had always assumed it was a block in their future sight that only a QH could look into and see the future of mankind. I had kind of always associated it with the Guild Navigators and their ability to see clear pathways to travel while "folding space".
It was never said outright, but I figured that Reverend Mothers could not look too deep into the future because of this abyss that they feared. Otherwise, they would have seen the Golden Path and what it was going to take to ensure humanity's survival and altered their plans for galactic dominance accordingly.
One thing I realized while reading God Emperor of Dune is that all apparent "contradictions" are intentional. This is one of them. The Bene Geserit were lying to themselves for so long that they believed it. Wheels within wheels.
It's been such a long time since I've read the books, which I clearly need to rectify, but I cannot remember. Was the lore that they COULD not, or just that they DARED not? There is a whole lot of difference between those two concepts.
Yes it does, since she went crazy and that’s what the Bene Gessarait are most concerned about. Thanks.
NC have you watched the recent Blade runner? What did you think about it?
I actually haven't seen it 😕
@@NerdCookies You should give it a watch even if its not a franchise your invested in its an enjoyable watch.
Oh, to be ruled by the Just.....
My interpretation was always that the bene gesserit weren't exactly afraid of their male memories, more that they were unable to perceive them wholely and accurately, if at all, due to their lack of a Y chromosome. This would explain why someone like Paul or Leto was needed, since they are biological men. This would explain why Alia and Ganima were able to get bits and pieces of their male line. The bene gesserit are able to control the sex of their child but not necessarily the chromosomes. It's unusual, but there are cis gender women who have a Y chromosome that just never got activated so to speak. Ganima and Alia could both be instances of that. Since they're not biologically male, despite having the chromosome (and yes, that is a thing) they wouldn't have full access to the male memories but they'd get more than their XX bene gesserit counterparts.
Ypu know what ot takes.
Just a quick question in reference to the topic of the pre-born. I don't remember a much of Ghanima in canon to what happened to her after the political marriage to Farad'n. My question is that with Ghanima being pre-born, would that affect any children that she would have?
AFAIK, it seems that being pre-born is something that has to occur in utero. So unless the same thing happened to her children in the womb, (i.e. a large amount of spice to awaken awareness) they would not be pre-born as she was.
I know what you meant here, but just in the interest of being thorough, Ghanima didn't marry Farad'n, for political reasons or any other. She wasn't married to Farad'n.
Ghanima was married to Leto, her brother, so that he might have a consort and keep the throne totally locked up by the Atreides family.
Farad'n was Ghanima's life mate, paramour and the father to her children, and they loved each a whole lot for a long time, but her husband was her brother.
i still dont understand what the bene geseritt are affraid of and forbid anyone from being able too by execution if its male yet no female has been bred to do so leads to the argument the bene geserrit are wanting a female to be able to do so ?, i dont get it, its confusing ,not knowing why the void must be avoided or reached in memory the could go back to earth times when humans only populated earth ?, Herbert doesnt even explain these questions in his novels, but they are still enjoyable, conversation pieces , and great video, thank you
8:50 who is that?
Karens of the far future, and apparently still just as bitter about not getting a sack
Wait, her mother was Liz Cheney?
Wasn't there something (it's been a number of years since I've read the books) that Paul had to explain drowned to chani when he told her the story of the fishermen on Caladan? That seems more of a contradiction to me than the abomination aspect that was clearly stated since the birth of alia. I might be recalling wrong, but I remember chani not understanding drowned, but she should have since the worm was drowned to make the water of life.
The drowning story wasn't Chani, it was a guest at the Dinner Party.
@Cameron McCoy ahh OK thanks I was actually going through my books trying to find the scene because it was driving me nuts because I knew it existed, it just didn't seem like I had it right. It must have been the dinner party where Leto left Paul in charge, and he got into it with the water seller right, thanks so much for the reminder!!
@@smoore6461 right, the point of him telling the story of the drowned man in the first place was the wounds on his shoulders from another drowning man trying to climb up him to get air. He made the comment that his father commented that it was understandable except when it happens in the drawing room and Paul added "or the dinner table"
@Cameron McCoy yes i totally remember now. That was a great scene in the book. I have not read the first book in nearly 5 years. Thanks for the reminder, I remember Jessica thought Paul was trying to get the water seller. (Suk suk was the name hid date was calling him) to call him.out.
It's the spice isn't it? Right pre birth spice.
I believe a concept like the bene gesserit is entirely possible. Only it would take extensive and deliberate genepool manipulation by way of controlling who marries who. Specifically those with psychic abilities. This includes genuine mind readers, spiritual warriors, and oracles. I fall into the last two camps. I have had over a thousand different events where I dreamed a thing would happen, and then months or even years later it did. My wife has also experienced these kinds of dreams, but with fewer events where they came true. I once lead her through an area neither of us had ever been to without any prior knowledge of it, without any prior experience, without directions, without GPS an Without a Map on an Island I had never been on prior and led her to a house that was for sale when we were looking for a house to buy. It met every requirement we had but the price was so out of range that it wasn't funny.
1 bed 1 bath with a cart port and kitchen should never cost 600K before you take HOA fees into account (It was nearly 1.2Million after HOA fees were considered.). I have also routinely been able to hijack the senses of my wife, and in the past my father. When I do it they report a weird sensation crawling up their spine and a disorientation for a moment as I use my abilities to see as they see, hear as they hear, and feel as they feel. And they report these things often immediately after I stop doing it, but they didn't know I was doing it prior. I don't even have to be in the same room. With my wife I did it successfully when she and I were in separate states in the early years of our relationship. I can still do it now.
The Bene Gesserit as an organization is entirely possible. The problem is, People with abilities to qualify for such a breeding program are scattered, often separated by thousands of miles, nation borders, languages, and unfortunately some of them practice a religion that forces them to deny their abilities.
I chose to watch Raiders of the lost ark instead of Dune at the time
The place in the male brain that is simply too cringe to even
I want to be one!
I love your Dune series it's a really great reader's companion.
Makes perfect sense to me.
It was never said that the women couldn't access these memories but that they feared doing so. I've always suspected this was due to the men being the ones in most of society taking care of the women which meant they all had to learn survival, strategy, combat and war which women typically steer clear of even today, the majority of women who join the military do not join the army, and most of the time they do not join groups such as the Marines. It's likely they don't wish to subject themselves to the up front nature of war and it's consequences such as blood and gore. Imagine remembering every war every battle every violent against perpetrated by men against other men or any other victim. It'd be like looking at gore anger war hatred all at once, it would be immensely sickening I would suspect.
Oh and I'm not saying women are weak, far from it, but I am saying I understand why this choice is being made by the majority. I'd take that choice too if I weren't a man.
Honestly , the Atreides are far too uptight .
Oh patriarchy...
The sisterhood of the Bene Gesserit are interesting to me they're sort of like what Catholic priests would be if they weren't perverted
You always make the day better...how about some Warhammer lore.
Thanks
Cooks what was it about looking into there male ancestors memories that was so terrifying???
I suppose, men and women have different brain patterns?
Probably just a classic case of religious doctrine that exists for no real reason.
Its been speculated that it stems from a limitation of chromosomes. XY being more adaptable than XX.
It's horrible to be confronted by what you consider the opposite of yourself, within yourself -- even though it's a necessary step to reaching your full potential.
"But when you look inward and see your own life unshielded, you see your peril. You see that this could overwhelm you. The greatest peril to the Giver is the force that takes. The greatest peril to the Taker is the force that gives. It's as easy to be overwhelmed by giving as by taking." book one, page 445
Those not make sense because female only have XX unless a weird gene problems/ mutations. male are XY.
Unless every woman with male genetic memory in the series was intersex and Frank Herbert forgot to mention it, there is no problem.
@@fruitygarlic3601 I do not think so only helve the memory would be possible for female to use because of the X in males and I not think the personality of male would strong to over power a woman with only helve the memory. if the past memory from gain from gene. So it does not make sense on useless it is what your saying. But did't she had kids?
No it belive its not a contradiction. Preborn and atrades genes . Unlocked new abilities. Which were bred into the sisterhood . And lesser sisters the general population. And there abilities evolved over the millenia. Even life spans or speed and muscle control. 300 year lifespan without spice . Eugenics.
DUNE :)
+1
First off all men are born of women so we should be able access the whole thing. Patriarchy is a mess.
Even the first book says a woman could access male genetic memories with effort, as a man would access female genetic memories. Don't let the misinformation in the comment section get to you.
Women have two X chromosomes. Men have an X and a Y chromosome. Thus, women couldn’t initially gain access to that Y chromosome because their genetic memories didn’t have a Y.
SPOILERS!
I gave a spoiler warning at the beginning of the video.
Bene Gesserit, how to make female power players and remain feminine. Friggin awesome writing.
BRO THIS IS NOT LORE THIS IS SPOILERS!! Come on damn. Way to ruin the Baron inside Alia! Wtf!!!! 😡🤬
#1 I gave a spoiler warning at the beginning of the video #2 Lore is spoilers... BRO. #3 The books are many decades old. #4 Why would you watch lore videos if you don't want spoilers?