🧙 Brandon Stark's Secret Bastards | The Wild Wolves
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2018
- Spoilers for Winds of Winter!
Brandon Stark, the Wild Wolf, may have left secret children all over Westeros. We're used to looking for secret Targaryens in ASOIAF and GoT, but instead let's look for secret Starks! Which of the young men and women we know are actually direwolves and heirs to Winterfell? (Sorry for my terrible GRRM voice). Quotes read by HistoryOfWesteros.
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I love Aziz reading
Me too, I enjoyed maybe a little too much getting him to read Lady Dustin's lines.
Joe Magician in my own brand channel I do voices too
Hey Emilio, Where are your videos? I'd lovee to check them out.....Joe from House Thompson
House Thompson ua-cam.com/video/OjI0wkvIJgY/v-deo.html
I'll have to redo it
Emilio Camacho Erice I didnt even notice until your comment. Ahaha yes it's great reading from Aziz!
In fairness, Brandon did repeatedly shout for Littlefinger to yield. Petyr just thought he was the main character and refused to do it.
There seems to be a lot more to Robert and Ned’s friendship. Robert is compared heavily to Brandon, and Stannis is one of the most Ned-like characters in the entire book. No wonder they got along so well, they basically met the cooler best friend version of their siblings during their wardship.
And yet neither Starks nor Baratheons brothers got really along, I love how Martin has a great touch for writing how absurd we humans are. You can tell there was a lot of respect between Eddard and Stannis despite the envy Stannis felt for Eddard over his brother's love.
Domeric being Brandons would explain why Roose doesn't hate Ramsay as much as he should for killing Roose's heir, and it would explain an extra reason for Barbarey loving Domeric so much
Joe, I wrote this literally a minute before you started saying the exact same thing, haha. Great minds and all that
Not really? Domeric grew up in Barbrey's household, so that would probably the reason why she was so attached to him. In fact, if he was a product of her beloved Brandon cheating on her with her own sister, it would make Barbrey less likely to love the boy so much, not more. As for Roose's reaction to his death, keep in mind Roose is a sociopath, and his son spend a good chunk of his childhood away from him, making it all the harder for cold Roose to grow attached to him.
@@tereziamarkova2822 Interesting you say that though. I think people take Roose's words to Reek a bit too at face value considering he is talking to somebody he knows will tell Ramsay everything, so everything he says is something he wants Ramsay to hear. Roose does say that leeching would help Ramsay and that "takes away all the anger and pain". What pain? Emotional pain? Barbrey says the passions were sucked out of him years ago, which implies he did have them. Certainly Roose's rape of Ramsay's mother implies he was more wild in his youth. I just don't know about him but I hope we learn more before he dies in the books, assuming we ever get to read those books.
As well, for Domeric to be a bastard of Brandon's then Bethany would need to be not much older than Barbrey. As soon as Brandon laid with her she'd need to be married off to Roose for there to be any hope of him not discovering the truth right away.
@@tereziamarkova2822
That's fair enough, actually. Just now getting into more of the Lore from the Books, though this explanation does overall make sense
How many died who would have otherwise lived if Brandon Stark had killed Piotyr Baelish when they dueled for Catelyn's hand in marriage?
ten's thousands if not 100's thousands.
I think he means that if Brandon killed Petyr, the war of the 5 kings wouldn’t have happened, since petyr didn’t really have too much influence during the rebellion, there is a theory that Brandon met petyr at the crossroads inn and petyr tricked him into attacking Rhaegar instead of simply going to the king and demand his sister back, and Brandon wasn’t necessarily a dumb ass, he was sort of like Robert, and Robert isn’t dumb, he is just sort of depressed and a drunk, but this is after many years of filling a realm he didn’t want plus being married to Cercie, so a more accurate description of Brandon would be a pre war Robert Baratheon, also Ned constantly thinks that Brandon would know how to handle things, which implies that Brandon was as smart as Ned at least and decisive, but perhaps way more brash and loud, but that’s usually just how first born sons are
@@christopherneil8702 had he killed littlefinger he may even have lived himself.
Catelyn is the worst.....
@@christopherneil8702 if Dorne rebelled, the entire Reach and Stormlands would shout HUZZAH now that they have someone to go beat up annually
While the books may never reveal whether Brandon Stark has bastards, this video reveals a lot more about Brandon’s personality. It makes me think that his anger when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna was less to do with his protection of Lyanna and more to do with his pride. Equally, perhaps he was less concerned about his little sister when she was “kidnapped” and more provoked by the perceived insult of her “abduction.”
Very much agree, even if it's none of them the increase of Brandon like characters is very interesting. It would fit with what we know his anger being charged by personal pride.
Male “protection” of female family members is usually about male pride. Not always, sometimes it is really about protecting a family member under attack, but more often than not it is about a perceived insult to honour.
Well it makes sense and his little sister was essentially being called a mistress. as an older brother it would hurt for someone to insult your little sister so
@@willmosse3684 in gam of thrones yes in real life doubtful
Why is kidnapped in quotes? I think it’s a pretty fair assessment that Lyanna wasn’t a fully willing participant in Rhaegar’s delusions about a prophecy, considering what we know of her personality it seems very out of character for her to knowingly hear about the death of most of her family and not go back to Winterfell once things were clearly going to spiral out into all out civil war, instead she presumably stayed in the tower of joy in Dorne for a year or more and with 3 Kingsguard oddly “guarding” yet preventing her own brother Ned from seeing her by trying to kill him. Seems very suspicious and I think it points to something somewhat in the middle of the two tales we hear, maybe Lyanna really did love Rhaegar and willingly went along with him, but once she heard about the deaths of her father and brother Rhaegar imprisoned the now pregnant Lyanna in the Tower in Dorne appointing 3 of his own Kingsguard to make sure she doesn’t escape and no one can enter, including people who have Lyanna’s best interest in mind, like her own brother Ned.
Late to the party, but one very interesting thing to note;
In AGoT George used very very different styles of prose to later books. It is much more symbolic and allegorical. Its a tougher read. But so much cooler.
There is a passage describing Brandon’s and Petyr’s duel. Very very interesting similarities to that duel and Rhaegar vs Robert.
The crimson blood described as flowing. The duel ends up finishing in the trident.
Both Rhaegar and Petry whisper a woman’s name as they fall.
Also Petyr has his blood flowing out of his wound over his “fingers”
Rhaegar never stood a chance, as decent of a fighter as he was, against Robert.
Petry never stood a chance against Brandon either.
Harry the Heir and Alayne recreating parts of the tourney at Harrenhal, both Starks in “disguise” - this has got to be the best theory since the Green Zombies, I freakin’ LOVE it! I wonder who will play Rheagar, and if that person will be a secret Targaryen....
Also don't forget that Jon joining the watch happens after the prologue so Bronze Yohn wouldn't have known that a Stark bastard was going to join the NW... so he sent his own suspected one. I like the weymar idea. It has legs
It is often remarked upon that Loras Tyrell and his sister Margaery look similar enough to be mistaken for twins. So unless you think somehow Brandon came back for more the next year and fathered Margaery too, I'd say Loras Tyrell is an extremely unlikely prospect.
Maybe they look like their mother
@@TheDzudas she's a pale haired Hightower.
Waymar Royce is the most interesting for all the reasons you listed. 👍
Yeah, beside the possibility he glossed over, Robb!
Serena Odonata pp pop ppp
Joe, you're like a male version of Gemma! Your voice is so soothing and that background music just lulls me into a state of comfort and relaxation. I love this video!
That is not a comparison I ever expected to hear, but I'll take the compliment!
Brandon Stark is another Robert Baratheon of the north version.
They definitely seem cut from the same cloth
@@JoeMagician Writers have to use other same characters designs to create more characters to populate the role play. Stannis and Ned is sometimes seems to be similar, Robert and Bradon are like north and south
@@Brandonhayhew Yup, agreed
good episode! Waymar and Jon look alike, members of House Royce and Stark, both house descendants of First men and they had been married in the past, so easy to see the Starks features in House Royce
Big E
What would Jon and Waymar have made of each other if Waymar had lived longer? I don't think they would have been friends. I think Waymar's arrogance of noble birth would have infuriated him.
Waymar woulda lost that after a few months
Dave Studdaman
Certainly possible.
Loras wouldnt work because he is supposed to look identical to margaery but i find it hard to believe that they were both brans
Agreed.
Hmm.., you're right, would explain why Royces (3rd?) son was "gifted" to The Wall by Yohn Royce in a time where The Watch is a shadow of what is once was, in numbers & prestige. Maybe he took him through Winterfell to compare with the other Starks (Benjen, Eddard), and if the suspect was inconclusive he could've hesitated, had a change of mind & taken Waymar back home with him.
Do we get a visual of what his brother Robar Royce or the other Royce lordling look like? Maybe there aren't many similarities between them & Waymar.
I would add in that the Starks & Royces have inter-married before, and quite recently, at least the junior branch for certain. Eddard also had strong ties in the Vale after growing up there with Robert. But the Others just happening to reveal themselves to Waymar could be taken indicatively
great videos btw.
I know Ser Ander Royce is described like his father. Barrel chested and hands lile hams but Robar I dont believe we get a full description but when he road with catlyn to the Sept before Renly is killed he goes with her and ser Wendal Manderly and the 2 of them are compared by Cat and Robar seems more like waymar then Andar. But honestly i still think Waymar is a bastard pup..
@@bensonrussell7232 It's hard to prove conclusively, and we'll likely never know unless Yohn meets Jon and says something, which he wouldn't because it means he was cuckolded.
When did Benjen Stark go to the Wall?
Right after the tourney?
And is it possible that Benjen Stark went ranging, looking for Waymar Royce? Or is my timeliness all jacked?
And did Benjen ever meet Waymar Royce?
@@danielmejorado6098 Benjen went to the Wall after Ned came home from the war.
Benjen was looking for Waymar, iirc, dunno if they'd met, but it seems likely.
Concerning Ashara, I don't think Brandon would have had sex with a girl that his younger brother Ned had been interested in. They were close, and Brandon had spoken to her for him. I doubt they had sex. It was probably Ned. Theres a reason Ned is so popular in Dorne, of all places
Ned is popular in Dorne, no denying that! But I dont think he gained popularity by supposedly ban*ing Ashara and leaving her with an unofficial baby, and after that kill*ng Arthur Dayne, her brother. Ned also lead a rebellion against the Targaryens and the Daynes married into the royal family 1-2 Generations before.
We definetly lack information on why Ned is popular, but not because of the before mentioned reasons.
Brandon is much more likely to impress Ashara by asking her to dance with his little brother and not himself, while everyone else fell for her beauty -> It probably made a huge impression of her (beside his established reputation as a badboy) that he thought that she was not in Brandon´s league. If there is anything pretty young women desire, it is to be shown they cant get the cool one -> or did any pretty young woman in history fall for the goofy, introvert boy? Also Brandon seems very impulsive, unconsidered and dumb -> he would do as his *ick tells him.
Ned, most likely, just smoothed relations between Starks and Daynes by returning the sword Dawn (Valyrian steel swords are an immeasurable family-asset) and maaaaaaybe helped Ashara starting a new life by smuggeling her out (her body was never found)?
Personally I think Brandon and Ashara are Jon's parents and the reason Ned is popular in Dorne (well, the Dayne part of Dorne) is because of a baby swap after the tower of joy.. all speculation ofc but I'm not sold on R+L=J and think Dany is the Azor Ahai figure that Rhaegar was trying to birth
@@arturleperoke3205 Bruh, what if it's Rickard Stark who deflowered Ashara. His southron ambitions is because the Dornussy got him acting unwise
@@macnsteez3938
Wait, so what baby was swapped with Jon, then?.
@@arturleperoke3205
Yeah, that's also a fair point. Brandon recommending Ned, while would be a chill thing to do, as well as a solid recommendation, wouldn't interest Ashara as much as Brandon.
As you said, it seems to be a weakness in plenty of young women, going after the guys they probably shouldn't be going for, and considering how things ended, well... yeah, maybe a legitimate union with Ned could've saved a little bit of trouble. But who knows, even minor changes could've drastically impacted what happened at the end of the day
So as soon as I heard Domeric Bolton, I was like naw son. But then you reminded me that he is also a Ryswell. Very intriguing thought. But, why is Robb Stark not on the list? I think he's a very strong candidate. Among other reasons, Catelyn always says Ned's name when she's referencing him and any of her other childen. But when it comes to Robb, she always says 'his father'. I wonder why that is.
Anyhoo, very interesting list. Well done.
Domeric makes for a very interesting one, especially with how much Brandon is appearing in the Winterfell Bolton plot. I'd love it if Lady Dustin says something as she gets revenge.
Robb is outside the age range for one being born in 283 near the end of the Rebellion. Brandon hadn't been to Riverrun for months before he rode to King's Landing. The timeline doesn't work, and there's nothing to go on in her POV. So I discarded it after investigating. It'd be cool as an inversion of bastard and true born for Jon although he did that with Joffrey already.
Holy shit, that's perceptive to notice.. Very interesting clue.. I'm liking the idea that Ned married Ashara Dayne first, before Cat. Based on the line when Ned wonders what Cat would do in the same circumstance, when he is confronting Cersei on the legitimacy of her children..
aaronwallerj Cat also, when talking about Ned going to KL, basically tries to push Ned to go to KL and thinks that she must do this for her children. She clearly and absolutely sees Jon as a threat to their claim. If Robb was true born and Jon truly a bastard, she should not be threatened. And by pushing Ned to go to KL, she tells Ned Jon must also go. She knows Ned can't take a bastard to court, and Jon has nowhere else to really go besides the wall where he will give up any claims and inheritance.
Joe Magician just curious about the Robb part. I have Always figured he was Brandon kid and Ned married her in a quickie wedding to protect her virtue so to speak. That was the deal in my head. I'm curious about the Robb timeline that dismissed him. Exactly what kind of time frame? How many months? Is it possible she actually had Robb before then? I'm just not sure how I feel about that one yet😁 I'm still wandering if Theon should be on the list. Robb or not. 💜🔥
Yeah I'm not sure how I feel about that one yet..🙄😁💜🔥
I've always thought that Stark blood is something the others could almost...sniff out. I don't think the attack on Waymar was just bc he looked like Jon Snow (who's half Stark). And granted, the Royce family has first man blood. But I very much buy that Waymar had Stark blood. The Others are magical creatures, I don't think they find people based on their outfits and just similar features. They found him based on something besides a description. The Others track him. By scent of his blood. And GRRM sometimes just lays down secrets that don't necessarily jump up and yell surprise! It would be just like him to lay down a little secret just to bolster the reason why the prologue is so important.
. . . For incest is not prev3lent in Stark history, who is more than half a Stark?! Only difference in Jon to the other Starks is that he got the blood from his mother and their from their father
He doesn't have Stark blood he's actually a Tahgarian watch the show
@@philmitchellboxing8661 yes he does his mother is a stark
@@philmitchellboxing8661 jon is definitely half stark
@@philmitchellboxing8661 half stark half targaryen I think you need to watch the show 😂
I think margaery could be his daughter as she is born at the right time, she has the stark look and is said to look like lyanna and is described as "just as comely as sansa", she is also said love horses and is a good rider, cersei even desribes her as "restless" , margaery also travels a lot
Reaching lol no pun intended
Also have to note about Loras, that Cercei, noted a strong resemblance with Margery, meanings he probably have strong Tyrell looks, making it somewhat less likely
Ahhh good catch~
@@JoeMagician To be fair, Renly showed Ned the locket with Margaery's portrait and asked if the lady looked like anyone Ned knew. As we know, Ned's not the best at puzzles, so he just shrugs, then gets SUPER weirded out when Renly tells him who it is and says that some people say Margaery looks like Lyanna (Ned is weirded out because he's thinking Renly is falling for this younger version of Lyanna, just like Robert fell for actual Lyanna). As far as I remember, Ned, after hearing who it actually is and who it is supposed to look like, doesn't think about whether or not the portrait resembles Lyanna or not.
Just interesting to remember.
Also, I can't seem to find the actual confirmed dates of their birth. We know they aren't twins, but most places I looked said they were both 16, so maybe under a year apart? The dates I found online (from A Wiki of Ice and Fire) said Margaery was born in 283 and Loras in 282, but also that Loras is the youngest Tyrell so idk.
Or Margaery just has Hightower looks, and Loras is still also a Hightower
Domeric Bolton!! Barbrey loved him like a son. Domeric is mentioned many times, which is interesting, as he’s deceased. Great video. Thank you!! 🐉🐺🦁🦌🌹☀️🐟🕊
The proximity is the most interesting. Domeric brought up in the same chapters as Brandon and Lyanna, one of whom we know has a secret child. HMMM
Thanks, a topic I hadn't thought about. Poor Wymar seems the most likely to me.
Ann Klavano I too think this is super likely and make a lot of sense especially after Joe's initial connection and the previous videos and references he put together for the prologue
My brain almost exploded at the Domerik part. Holy crap
How is Brandon getting away with banging the Lords' wives in the Houses of all his buddys? When is enough enough? And Northern Houses are one thing, but Royces and Mallisters and TYRELL aren't sworn to Stark. As to Domeric, no chance a son of Brandon would have a chance to race Lyanna. He says "Not even lord Rickards daughter could outrace him" not "would have been able to outrace him" implying they rode together. Plus didn't George say "little Snows"? A lotta these Houses aren't northern so wouldn't be Snows. I can't decide who I hate more between Brandon Stark and Howland Reed.
Very true. Tbh I very much doubt he had relations with many or any other highborn girls. His relationship with Barbery was one he seemed to choose for himself, whether he loved her or not we can't really tell. She gives us some good info though. He didn't want to marry Cat, and that makes sense. He was a Northman who followed the old gods and liked to Ride the Rills which is Barberys home. She was a better match for him whether he loved her or not. She tells us that his father, Rickard had Southern ambitions and forbade Brandon to marry into an already loyal bannermans family. Also makes sense, heirs don't make the betrothal's, the lord does and it seems Brandon accepted his duty in that regard. Barbery also doesn't seem to hate Brandon, she seems to hate Rickard and Ned for separate reasons, so I wonder if that's a sign that she didn't feel slighted or dishonored by him, even if the stuffy feudal customs they live by designate what they had as such. She also implies he had other women, but if they were noble the rumor mill would be in full circulation, so I don't think they were. They were probably just a bunch of comely common girls he took a fancy to. If he has a bastard or two they are likely seen as nothing more than common boys or girls with a tall stature and Stark look. Good luck to them.
I agree with you about Brandon and Ashara, I don't think Brandon would be such an asshole to talk Ned up to Ashara, just to fuck her.
He was just helping Ned with the girl, like a true bro
1) Nothing points to Ned actually being interested in Ashara, he barely thinks about her in the story
2) Brandon would be the type of guy who would totally cuck his brother anyway
3) It makes no sense for Barriston Selmy to have such a good relationship with Ned but hate the "Stark" who dishonored her
I love the wolf on the far left. He looks so happy. What a good boy
The only one I do not like is the ashara Dane. I would like to believe that the dishonor she got was from NED marrying Catlin instead of her and that's how she was disgraced by a start Ned fulfilled his obligation to his family even though he loved someone else at the time
My bet is Catelyn slept with Brandon after his duel with Petyr, got pregnant, and mean old Hoster guilted Ned into marrying her and claiming Robb as his own, that way his dead brother’s reputation wouldn’t be sullied after the war.
The only theory I could subscribe to is Allyria Dayne being really Ashara and Brandon's but claimed by her grandparents as a trueborn Dayne. She is clearly much younger than the rest of her supposed siblings, although we never get her age. This fact mostly stems from her being absent from the event around the Rebellion, unlike Ashara, and being only betrothed to Beric Dondarrion in the main story. She could have been the stillborn girl from the stories, or Ashara's mother was really pregnant too and she had a stillbirth due to her age and they swapped infants. But Jon is too young to be a Harrenhall baby, so even if Ned and Ashara run into each other during the Rebellion, Brandon would have been long dead. And when Jon was presented to the world, no one questioned him being too old to have been sired during the Rebellion. Babies grow pretty fast, and including travel time, he did not look new born but you cannot present toddler and assume no one will notice. BUT Robb Stark is not Brandon's and that's a simple math. Even if he slept with Cat an hour before his hasten ride for King's Landing, she would be showing by the time Ned got back from the North. By the time he got from Riverrun to KL, got arrested and his father arrived to claim him (even if he was already moving south for the wedding and not still in Winterfell) it would have been weeks. Then summons went out for Ned and Robert's heads and Ned headed North to call his banners (that's where the story of fisherman's daughter comes from) and THEN headed South and married Cat, because Hoster Tully was wavering. She would be showing. Hoster purged Lysa's bastard, why not Cat's? And Ned would have known on the wedding night at least and Robb being born 3 months later wouldn't fool anyone. You cannot hide young bride birthing a child so soon-too many attendants for the secret not to get out.
I notice a lot of people believe Robb to be Brandon’s son…. seems so unnecessary.
Such a great voice for audible readings. Especially about my favorite show and characters! Good shit my friend!
No mention of Robb Stark? Brandon was in Riverrun right before going to Kings Landing. He could have slept with Catelyn, who married Ned only a few weeks later. It would explain so much about why Cat feels so much animosity towards Jon. And why Bran is her favorite.
All in all, a fascinating look at the subject. Waymar and Loras are both very intriguing possibilities. Waymar especially. Like perhaps The Others know something about who they are looking for (Jon). Gonna reread the prologue now.
Steven Stark you'll see in the patreon notes going out later ;) I did consider Robb but ruled it out with nothing to go on in Cat's POV chapters.
Joe Magician I agree, Cat gives basically nothing. Have you listened to the Robb Stark episode on Radio Westeros? There is a section where they touch on this possibility.
I think that the theory of Robb being Brandon's is pretty good too. It makes more sense that he HAD to marry Catelyn. It was common for the younger siblings to marry the brothers widows. But technically she wasn't a widow.
I think Ned is definitely the type to do this. He didn't have to as his father died and he was the head of the house but bc Ned is so "righteous" I see his character feeling obligated by this.
Mandolin523 it didn’t help he need the Army of the Riverlands.
Found your video in my recommendations. Good job Joe. I really enjoyed this. All the G.O.T/A.S.O.I.A.F history and lore videos are among my favorites.
Minds are blown in the wind like leaves! Absolutely fantastic speculation here, Joe! This gave me a lot to think about. Thank you!
You're very welcome :)
If Waymar really is Brandon Stark's kid, it'll probably never be explicitly confirmed within the narrative. That's actually probably true for pretty much all of these.
Agreed, if any are true they'll just be a fun thing for the fans. None of them are showing up in Winterfell claiming to be the blood of Brandon Stark.
This is an amazing set of potential insights here, and you approach them comprehensively, looking not only at whatever textual clues Martin might have dropped into the text for us to find but also at Martin's broader writing style and habits, which I thought was a nice touch. I never thought to ask myself "how does Martin write about bastards IN GENERAL?" but, of course, his universe has consistent rules not only about magic but also about heredity, rules that we can't assume that we know just because we've read Gregor Mendel. And so yes, looking at how the Sand Snakes or Robert's bastards are described in relation to their parents, their siblings, each other, etc, is a smart way to go about it. You're looking not only at how Martin writes but at how he THINKS!
That said, though, perhaps if we consider how different the Starks are from each other, and how different the Lannisters are from each other, and how different Gendry is from HIS dad, maybe we should expect that Brandon's bastards would NOT be like him when it comes to women, fighting, or impulsiveness? Martin paints Gendry as being awkward around women, bad on a horse, reluctant to fight, and a defender of children--the only thing besides looks that he really DOES share with his dad is that they both swing hammers a lot. Perhaps when looking for Brandon's bastards, we should look to find something similar, a superficial token that says "aha, remember how Brandon had this thing, and now this kid has a similar thing but totally not the same thing?" It could very well be a "bloody sword." Or maybe, like Brandon, who keeps being described as having "hot blood," one of his bastards will die and spill "hot blood" all over a Lannister as he does so. Or, since Brandon and Lyanna both were like centaurs, maybe Brandon's bastard will ride the WHITE PONY and be an addict of the milk of the poppy in its opiate state, i.e. he will "sin" with "tar!"
... or maybe we should just look more to Brandon's family members than to Brandon for the kid's traits. Gendry looked like Renly and had Stannis' awkwardness with the ladies. So maybe instead of looking for a horse-riding womanizer, we should be looking for a bastard with Sansa's love of chivalric pageantry, Ned's "lawful good" approach to loyalty/honor, Bran's love of climbing things, and Benjen's really, really cold hands?
You woke up early! Thanks for this. I was reading “The Reaper” chapter, but we can always close the book for a great video! Have a wonderful day!
wasser30 slightly early! Hope you enjoy it :)
Fun video with an interesting idea. However, I don’t think if Brandon has any bastards they’ll be of any significance and Martin’s comments seem to reflect that. I do enjoy the connections you make though. But typically the most interesting mysteries of ASoIaF to me are the ones that will never be fleshed out and realized (for instance the entire continent of Sothyros I find fascinating and it’s likely we’ll never know more about it). Great video, hope you make more.
Cucker Tarlson what about the mysterious and feisty young woman named Wylla with the obviously dyed green braided hair that Davos meets at white harbour. She speaks out during Davos’ audience with Wyman Manderly and is clearly a Stark loyalist. Her name, behaviour and strange dyed hair all stand out to me. The fact that her hair is disguised could hint at her identity being disguised as well. There is also mention of a green haired “Tyroshi” girl who played at the water gardens in Dorne. Arianne Martel speaks of her to her father and it really connects with this Wylla girl that is being housed by the Manderly family. She could be a bastard of Brandon Stark that maybe was used to bargain with the North. It is said many times that Dorne protects little girls....but they also bargain with them. I don’t know how it connects, but there is something there for sure. I’ve always wondered about Wylla with the green braid and wondered who she really is and after watching this video it brought up the possibility in my mind that she could be one of Brandon’s bastards, or perhaps even more...perhaps Valyrian hair colour is the reason why she dyes it Green.
Excellent! Glad I started following you on Twitter and UA-cam. Keep them Coming!
Great artwork and perfect fonts. Intriguing content.
I like Harry and Waymor for candidates and can see both being Brandon cubturds
I swear every decision Catlyn makes leads to something terrible 😂
Great video Magic Joe!! Love the voices!!
maybe on his way through Kings Landing the last time Brandon had a quickie with a baker woman. Hot Pie secret Stark bastard confirmed!!!
It is known.
Awesome video as always JM!
Thank you Mat for this, hands down coolest theory in the fandom. Not one that really changes anything at all but yet tangible and screams GRRM... Im sold on Waymar. Makes sense. First name we get is a stark. Jons mirror description the very next chapter. And also i believe from Runestone the quickest way to the wall is by sea but yet they took the kings road and visits winterfell cause sansa remembers falling in love with him calling him a perfrct knight. Either a nod by George giving us a winterfell connection or maybe even Bronze yohn knowing the truth.. Taking his wandering pup bastard to his true home before he takes the black. And where as Loras Tyrell. I like it. I can see it. I like the fact Puff Chest Mace Tyrell favorite rose is actually a blue winter rose?
Awesome video.
Just found this channel so late to the replies, but extremely well done.
Barristan thinks a Stark dishonered Ashara. I think Ned fell in love with Ashara Dayne and later secretly married her before a weirwood. Not dishonered at all. Ned says he dishonered Catelyn. I believe Hoster Tully forced Ned to marry catelyn and Jon Arryn to Lysa as a condition for Tully troops to join Roberts rebellion. This would explain why the blackfish swore off his house at the wedding feast. And the references about marriage being the source of the division between the two Tully brothers. When Ned confronted Cersei about her children he wondered what Catelyn would do in her place. Because Cats children are not true born Stark if he first marriage to Ashara and she's alive as septa Lemore. Great video thanks Love QOT.🌹
Ashara Dayne was tall with dark hair and haunting violet eyes however, Tyrion, doesn't notice any of those traits from Ashara on Lemore, the eyes are a give away they're "haunting"
Crate Yup Tyrion picks out Jon Connington in disguise, he'd certainly remember Ashara Dayne. She was a lady in waiting to Elia so seen at court and obviously tourneys. and considered one of the most beautiful women in Westeros. He'd recognize her, and he tries hard to. Spends a ton of time on the Shy Maid pondering her identity.
Crate Yup , and Joe, very good points.
Joe Magician that's precisely my point, Tyrion never saw anything in septa Lemore that would've make him think "wait a moment those eyes and that hair i know who you are!"but like we both pointed out, she ain't Ashara
Lesha Easley Possibly, it is odd that Catelyn always says, "your father". How about Robyn Arryn? He sure reminds me of littlefinger. ...
Joe, I really love your insight and everything you contribute. Thanks again for more great content!
Mandolin523 thank you! There will be more :)
There is this little thing about Loras too, that Jaimie thinks 'he is me' - like when Jaimie tells Catelyn that Brandon was more like him than Eddard. lol
But he could have well taken after his grandmother tbh.
Myranda Royce didn't kill her husband lol, he must have had a heart attack or something ROFL
The booty too good, killed husband. Classic Myranda
;))))))
Thanks for posting!
Thank you for watching :)
Didn't a Stark relative marry into the Royce's in the last couple of generations? That might explain some of the similarities between Waymar and Miranda to Brandon. I think that Ashara Dayn'e's child is the most likely option. Although I do like the Harold Hardyng theory.
Yes, Joceyln Stark into the Royces of the Gates of the Moon. Her daughters married into the Corbrays, Waynwoods, and Templeton.
They are also first men, there might be traits in common between first men families.
Boy...wouldn't it be something to find out that Robb is actually Brandon's bastard? To me it would be hilarious to further solidify that Catelyn is trash.
Enjoyed Aziz's take on Lady Dustin. :D
Interested in your comments about Ashara Dayne. My head cannon has long been that Brandon dishonoured her, but Ned truly loved her, and was willing to marry her regardless, and remove the stain on both families. It would be a tragic irony if Lord Rickard had even planned to discuss the matter with Ser Arthur while in Kings Landing but was arrested too quickly. It would also add a level of tragedy to Ned’s visit to Starfall after the Tower of Joy.
This was fun, enjoyed this one
Hey, Nice post with very Good research!
George is such a weird dude. Love him for it though
*3 years later lol*
Waymar Royce is interesting but everything can be explained by him simply being a Royce. They’re an ancient house dating back to the first men. Of course they’d share similarities with the Starks
I love your videos bro keep up the great work you awesome
You should consider doing readings on the books. Got the smooth voice for it
The fact Brandon is much more like Robert than like Ned is probably why Ned gravitated so closely to Robert. He reminded Ned of home home they were fostering in the Eyrie. It makes sense Ned would find comfort in anything that reminded him of home and Robert probably did that.
Best George impersonation. "Pawshibly" 😏
I fucking knew that I knew that voice, The one and only Aziz! Man I do love Brandon. He and I are very similar! Oh my fucking god your videos are exceptional and truly wonderful to listen too, great job just like always Ser Joey!
Love your videos
What no Mormont ladies as his children? There one or two of Maege's daughters who could be the correct age.
I had not considered any, but that's s cool idea to investigate!
I thought it would be interesting. At the very least, Dacey could be his sister.
Colleen McDonald I think Tormund AKA The White Bull AKA HUSBAND TO BEARS and lover of big strong women, fathered at least one child with Maege.
Jaime L. --I think so too. Especially, Alysane in the books. That would mean Tormund would have grandbears. :)
@@ardleighstreet Dacey Mormont could be who's sister? And how is this possible?
The funny thing is that loras do have a wild side, is great on horseback and an amazing swordsman and he's what like 17 or 18? If anyone has that wolf blood it's him.
No mention of Meera Reed? Born in 283... that works in the timeline right? To me there seems something un-crannoglike about meera reed...
There's no indication where Jyanna was from exactly except she's "of the crannogmen" or if she attended the tourney. Not enough to go on imo.
Meera even favors arya a little...stark-like dark features unlike jojen and daddy reed
She favors the Danes with a splash of crannog
Keep up the good work
Great video. Loved it. Keep up the good work. I agree that Waymor can be brandons son but I have a funny feeling Harry is Neds real Bastard. Like LF said. He wasnt betrothed at that time.
A master of horse is somebody who works at a castle and is charge of the maintenance of the stables and horses. During war time they might be in control of the cavalry or at least the upkeep of the horses ridden by the cavalry. Master of horse is an official position.
The Virgin Littlefinger vs the Chad Wild Wolf
great job
Just imagine Catelyn marrying Brandon and then have to deal with his 100s of bastards.
This makes Catelyn even more ungrateful towards Ned for so called fathering a bastard.
Smartness!
I don’t think looking for his bastard children based on his character traits is a very sound approach, as character traits for the most part aren’t really hereditary (you can make some case about how epigenetic memory of sensory experiences could in some ways shape someone’s traits, but it’s not like they’re directly heritable). I mean... Arya is pretty certainly Ned’s child, not Brandon’s. Yet she has this “wolf blood.” And then there are plenty of people from other families unrelated to the Starks who have the same kinds of traits that the Starks call “wolf blood-“ they just don’t call them that because they don’t have any association with wolves. Not to mention that there are also plenty of Starks (Ned being the most obvious) who don’t even vaguely have this “wolf blood.” So I think the “wolf blood” thing is more of a figure of speech, whether some Starks superstitiously believe it to be literally real or not. People’s character traits are shaped far, far more by the people who raise them & the environment they’re raised in, & if Brandon wasn’t around to raise them & don’t see why his bastard would be any more likely to have wild “wolf-blooded” characteristics than anyone else in Westeros, unless it was literally just as a kind of poetic literary hint from GRRM which wasn’t supposed to make any kind of technical sense genetically. Because that is a possibility, it’s not totally pointless to consider in looking for Brandon’s potential bastards, but I’d take that as a pretty weak form of evidence, & GRRM does seem to like scientific questions in the series to have a rationality & consistency to them for the most part, except where magic is involved (e.g. people’s visions, the lengths of the seasons, the dragon binding horn, etc.).
That said, interesting thoughts. Thanks for sharing!
Great video
If Brandon kills baelish in the duel...he never gets to lie to Brandon about lyanna being kidnapped...
So Brandons truest mistake was not being an irrational savage? But not being savage enough? Interesting 🧐
I'm thinking of writing a dream of spring prologue for Waymar Royce as a wight, maybe I'll have him turn from a ice wight to a fire wight with the horn of winter, maybe as jon is resurrected i haven't thought it through yet, but it might be nice to bring a load of theory's together.
Omg the artwork in this is outstanding!!
I love Harry the heir as a possiblity as well as Waymar Royce I think you're right in thinking that those that have the most narrative impact , are the most likely ones. And to think that two secret starks will marry, or that the wights have been after Jon all along, gives them both the narrative weight necessary for GRRM to actually bother with foreshadowing and a reveal
Original and thought-provoking video! But gate house Amy for the win!
I kind of think GRRM, just meant there is most likely a Bastard or two out there but we may never see them in the story. but I love the, Harry the heir idea.
Re watching this one and I notice this time through that the blond hair recessive gene showing up isn't that odd since red hair is also recessive and the Tully auburn hair showing up in the other stark kids says that it's possible for the stark dominate gene to take second seat
Sorry for the 5 years late comment. Great video, not sure how I missed this one back then. How old was Benjen at the time of the Tourney? 11-13 years is definitely in the range for him at that time, old enough to father a bastard. I once said, jokingly, that Benjen was hiding under Ashara's skirts at the Tourney. However, it would be a great red herring for both the father of Ashara's daughter and the reason that Benjen took the Black. These events seemingly point to, respectively, Ned and Ashara getting busy and Benjen perhaps knowing the truth of and feeling guilt about Lyana, Rhaegar and Jon. Probably not, but I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of GRRM's possibilities.
Around the 27 min mark, when speaking of Loras Tyrell, you jumbled the text slides as they dont match up with the readings in which they're shown.
26:54-27:28
Ahhh you're right. Looks like I'll need to upload a corrected version. Thank you!
Joe Magician just trying to do my part to help lol. Though i am surprised at Rob Stark not topping off the list. It wouldn't be out of line with Brandons character to have laid with his betrothed, Catelyn, before their marriage. Not to mention that it could give further insight to her fear of John taking Winterfell from Rob (as GRRM said, none of his children would be legitimate) along with paralleling his would be fathers death martch south to avenge his family. None the less thank you for the great content (i, personally, liked the possibility of Domeric Bolton the best.)! Keep up the great work!
Tobias Ash wish I had caught it haha. I did consider Robb Stark but decided against it early on. Cat's POV not mentioning the possibility at all was enough to stop there. With Ned there's subtle hints like how Jon isn't internally counted among his children.
Love this video! In my opinion, both Waymar and Harold are Stark Snows
yes!!
That's what she said
Ha ha.... ya perv.😂❤😂
dang I love your content. it's hard on the ears though. one reader speaks softly and the other shouts.
If only Brandon did a single good thing in his life.Like rallying the fucking north while going to King's Landing. Or even killing littlefinger..
Lucky Brandon didn't live long enough??? Robb did House Stark WAY worse. He broke his betrothal and married Jeyne. Brandon simply banged Barbrey yet kept his betrothal to Cat.
Anyone seeing Brandon and Robert in the same room: Oh my god, there’s two of them!
Did Benjen Stark ever meet Waymar Royce?
And is it within the canon timeline for Benjen to go ranging to find out what happened to Waymar? Its been almoat a decade since I read the Game of Thrones.
I think Wymar Royce makes a good candidate, why else would the whitewalkers target him if he had no stark blood?
Just an idea... Would Jory Cassel be in the right time frame?
I have 2 points of critique for this very fazinating and well executed video.
1. As we see viriety in Neds children we should consider that generaly starkish trades should be considered too for many children have strong resemblance with other family members than just their parents and like the red hair of an aunt or grandmother. Arya gets way more comparisons to Lyanna than to Ned still proving her undaubtabley a Stark.
2. You totaly glossed over the most interessting possibility, Robb! He resembles Brandon quite strongly with a little more focus on honor surely, from beeing raised by Ned, but still Jon and Robb togeather invoke a strong resemblence with Brandon and Ned in there dynamic and we do not need to specify, who of them resembled Ned! With Bran and Arya they give a quite close and compleat picture of the dynamic we know the former generation of Stark children had.
When Bran sees Lyanna and Benjen he first is convinced it is him and Arya if it was not for the girl beeing rougher with the boy, than he remember Arya ever beeing with him, which realy does not picture Lyanna all to nice for we know Arya for beeing ruthless in tendency even before all her trauma cemeted it.
And I have no trubble at all picturing Robb talking to a girl for she might dance with the to shy to ask Jon!
Even if you dismiss it at the end for timeline reasons, it is such a strong case it would need to be adressed in my eyes
30:09 "Love of queen and beauty"
I love this.
Forgot the elephant in the room: Jon Snow being Lyanna and Brandon's bastard.
Robb Stark is his bastard.
Gaming With A White Guy the timeline wouldn't make it possible