Suicide Squad Kills the Industry - an analysis
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- #suicidesquad #destinykiller #videoessay
Thanks to Outplayed for helping me track all the best moments from this "Destiny Killer" Suicide Squad! Download Outplayed today! It’s FREE! Check it out now www.influencerlink.org/SHJss
I made a mistake saying Rocksteady made Arkham Origins, this is a complete error and I take full responsibility, this was made by Warner Brothers Montreal. I will be better about a mistake like this one.
Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League strikes a terrifying drum for the future of live service and the “destiny killers”, 95% of games being released will be live service in some form and if this is the trend, single player developers swimming up stream into live service without a paddle, it’s all but sunk for gaming. Suicide Squad is a unique case however and unlike Anthem, suicide squad didn’t have the horror story in development that we know of. Before Suicide Squads release something was different for the legendary Rocksteady, they created the modern day superhero game format and gave batman fans and superhero fans alike, a place to call home. Given the track record of single player games with a narrow, tight focus on a storyline true to the world's greatest detective couldn’t let the bad game get away, right? Rocksteady spent several years on this project, they could not mess this up? Warner Brothers wanted the suicide squad to be the next great live service game? Well you’re about to learn about the modern day tragedy of the next Destiny Killer, the story of Suicide Squad and the grim future of live service.
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Intro: 00:00
Development: 02:16
General Analysis: 09:09
Evan Plays the Game: 16:25
Conclusion: 33:03
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Music:
Mass Effect Trilogy - Extended Galaxy Map Theme (HD)
Arkham knight ost - vendetta
Bloodborne ost - Gherman, the first hunter
Genshin impact ost - The Chasm - inevitable conflict
Blasphemous dlc ost - forgotten jade
Demon's souls ost - One who craves souls
twilight princess ost - midnas theme
Anthem main theme ost
Anasthasia - Destiny 2 Beyond Light ost
Everything is going to be okay - Prey ost
xGladd lvl 7 Rage - Token Tiko
Epidemic Sound - Ігри
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what you said about kevin was a disrespect to the man. this game shits on his legacy no he didnt know they were going to end him by shooting him in the face . everyone with any sense knows he didnt or he wouldnt have done the role. you are doing a diserves to all your viewing audienvce when you said that bs about kevin. and you left out the main reason why the game is trash. its trash because its filled with leftist woke idelogy. i dont think you mentioned that once in this video. pretty pathetic and weak of you. you scared someoen is going to call you far right or something? because everyone else sees the idoloical slant but your self.lmao you got issues my dude. its not just because the game is boring or that you fell asleep . its because its propoganda and it shows no respect to the male characters expecially batman
i- i dont have the time for every game to be live service anymore. im not in school anymore, im not a kid, i dont have that free time.
Arkham Origins wasn't by Rocksteady. WB Montreal made that
this was my fault, will correct in description
@evanf1997 also captain boomerang didn't take a boomerang from the hall of justice, he took a flash gauntlet...which is why he's able to move at flash speed
And it’s a highly underrated game too
origins was also shit js
This video is 36 minutes long, and that’s what you came out the other side with?
It really should of been Batman in Wonder Woman's role, it wouldve made it slightly better for the character to end on a high note then what we got.
I aactually like the game but i cant deny that this sounds alot cooler than what they went with.
Probably was, in early development, but it was changed due to mandated interference
But that would be racist and sexist and undiverse.
Also worth pointing out that Superman isn't always a villain in contemporary media because he's powerful. Modern writers LOVE powerful characters. See: Every mary sue protagonist and every "diverse" super-hero stand in. No. Superman is a villain because he's powerful and a straight white male.
You guys are crazy the reason they didn't do this is because they ARENT DEAD AND ARE COMING BACK
@@gimmesomequesadillas481 this may be true but it woulda been cool to see batman struggling against the league, maybe have a batman vrs superman martha parody moment. Though i am curious to see how they go about bringing the league back, and ive heard brainiac tell me hes going to make copies of me a few times now, alot of his shit talking lines reiniforce the idea that the league is in fact still alive.
Don't fall into this trap where you feel you can't be critical of game developers. Tommy Wiseau is a more experienced director than me but I still know The Room is a bad movie. I don't have to know what a key grip does to realize that. If a chef serves me an undercooked steak, I really don't care that cooking is hard and the restaurant is going through tough times, I only care that the end product I paid for isn't in an acceptable state. If your job is so hard that you can't perform properly then you should get a different job. Same goes for game development, you don't have to be a game dev to know that a product is bad and you don't have to give them a pass because they tell you their job is hard.
Whoa, whoa no need to bad mouth "The Room", the greatest movie ever to be released now or in the future.
Purchase the "Constellation Edition" now.
Who would win ?
A strong DC IP game with some of the most recognizable names in comic books, made by a legendary studio.. or....
Some armoured bois spreading liberty
LIBERTY.
MANAGED DEMOCRACY FOR ALL
Gotta give them a taste of Liber-TEA
Both Helldivers 2 *and* Palworld, and Dragon's Dogma 2 just right around the corner. This year is shaping up to be just as crazy as the last.
FOR SUPER EARTH!
Superman as a raid boss would be dope AF. They blew it... Smh
So this got me thinking; live service games like warframe allowed you to make your own character and and live as an important figure in the story.
SSKTJL makes you play as an established character with a backstory, requiring you have set expectations for those characters.
The thing is, Task Force X could allow you to build your own characters as random convicts and have big names like Deadshot and boomerang act as mentor figures like the Vanguard in Destiny. Waller has even been known to give dead squad members’ equipment to randos to fill out mission rosters
Now THAT would be a game i'm interested in playing, imagine wielding Captain Freeze's weapons and mix that with poison Ivy's toxins among other things. Becoming your own supervillain/anti-hero thanks to the goverment serving as your loophole for gaining powers you shouldn't.
Like a Villain-only and (partly) offline single-player version of DC Universe Online. I like the idea
To your point about the squad working as side characters, that’s kind of how they were invisioned.
The squads first appearance was in a 90s crossover comic where they acted in the us government’s interests during an alien invasion the justice league was dealing with.
That’s kind of where they thrive; acting in the background of major events to provide a more grounded view.
The premise itself was intended to be a grim joke, Oslander (the writer) made the team to answer the question of why so many supervillains kept going in and out of prison so frequently? A consequence of this was that he got a chance to take simple-characters and flesh them out into 3-dimensional characters, allowing us to see how they function when not in their natural habitat.
It taught us things like how Captain Cold is a brilliant tactician, the Calculator is a shitty villain but has a limitless mind for logistics, and that Capt. Boomerang is incredibly dangerous to people other than the fastest thing alive.
Fun fact; that 90s version was a reboot of a 60s adventure team, also called Task Force X, and nicknamed the Suicide Squad because it was made up of traumatized service members who were the sole survivors of mass casualty events.
Don't forget Evan Suicide Squad was originally in development from a different studio that WB shut down so this isn't even their IP. Least from what other UA-camrs and other media outlets have said, I could be wrong though.
Evan1997 doesn't know what he's talking about, there will be no 'great crash' regarding video games. Yeah, there will be thousands of lay offs, who cares? There will be hundreds of video game companies fold, who cares? Because there will be hundreds of more video companies that will fill the void, and need hundreds and thousands of employees.
The video game industry is the biggest entertainment industry in the world. Big corporations will continue to buy up and kill established franchises, so what! We as players will just move on to the next thing, no big deal. There will be from now on as far as we can see into the future more good video games made than any of us can play, oh wait! That's how it is now, I have more video games in my backlog than I could play in maybe ten years. lol No, the video game industry is not in danger, we as players will have our fill of games going forward, no worries at all.
Who care about live service games? I play Destiny 2, over 900 dollars spent, nearly 6000 hours, I don't care if D2 goes down the drain, I have had my fun, I will play other games. I hope D2 survives, but if it doesn't who cares? Who cares if Bungie dies? There will always be good games to play.
I like to think that Bungie has accidentally found a way to wipe out their competitors without lifting a finger:
They made a game in Destiny so influential that multiple games _try_ to be the “Destiny Killer”, but only destroy _themselves_ because they’re chasing a fad without committing to the facets of it that make it work for Destiny in the first place.
They're not ahead of everyone else seems like Warframe is #1 rn in this looter shooter genre, almost double player count rn.
Idk about that one 😂
@DeepStone-6 isn't warframe free from the getgo vs destiny 2 that charged 50 dollars at first?
And now d2 is killing itself lol
@@eddiebernays514
It’ll never “kill” itself…
Although Bungie seems to have a distressing fascination with the business equivalent of self harm it sometimes seems.
Also, the multiverse stuff was cool and unique when first introduced some years back, but now it’s just HELLA overused. Plus, it kills ANY kind of tension or stakes. There are infinite universes, so if someone dies you can just go grab another another universe.
I clicked on this just to hear another review on this game, I had NO IDEA that it was a live service game, the hell is the content after this
There's actually 13 Brainiac's across multiple universes. I'm not kidding.
joker and more characters coming
All evidence points to it being the suicide squad saving the Justice League
27:20 so technically the most powerful weapon in the universe (a green lanterns ring) can be used by anyone with enough willpower atleast temporarily. What i think they tried to imply here is that, the ring recognized, once disconnected from John that his hosts vision and with that its own vision, was altered momentarily allowing King shark to wield it to undo the shield around Brainiacs(The Rings are powered by an AI) this would explain atleast a little bit why the Green Lantern corp hasnt shown up yet because they would definetly have an interest in a rogue Green Lantern. The Ring than turns on Kingshark to get an actual new host later. What is why the construct tries to attack the squad
This would be a consistent explanation with the comics however i think im just giving the writers to much credit here
I still want my Superman game with Clark Kent and Lois lane raising there son Jonathan Samuel Kent superboy as his little 10 year old self learning how to control his powers and saving the day because that game would be freaking amazing in my opinion.
If the story was as they take out each of the heroes they reflect on what they stood for and come to each embody one of those aspects themselves that could have been great. That is one of the best story lines in DC comics the Earth 2 story line Brainiac wipes out the original Justice league so now new heros and villians have to fill to void and grow into those roles. Instead it's just "Kill hero make a joke about "Oh um actually that hero sucks." move on until the end of the game now grind for what was obviously going to be a MTX currency if this game out on it's originally announced date.
The story is really mid but I think it makes sense that the villains will see superheroes as bad.
I couldn’t believe the batman fight I thought it was going to lead up to an actual fight😭😭
If 95% of games will be like this in the future, I'm really considering the possibility of returning to monke.
that goes too games that are MADE by warnerBROTHERS
Achshuly, Boomerang takes Savitar's Speed Force Gauntlet and channels its power through his boomerang.
It's not savitars speed force gauntlet. It's Dr silvana's
@@baki484 ah my bad.
It's also worth mentioning, half the reason a new live service just doesn't hit for me is.... a new live service can't just be _good_, it has to be great enough to compete with the biggest ones I play. It's gotta make me say "Okay, I need to budget my time away from Warframe for this."
Playing a live service is a lifestyle and you can only devote so goddamn much.
Live service = a game you can never actually buy. Perfect 👉🏻
This literally could’ve been the biggest and greatest game ever made. They had the studio, the characters, the build up, the fanbase…everything really, and they ruined it just like that smh.
making good live service is so hard
heldivers 2: hold my beer
is this game live service? I wanted to check it out with some friends
@@evanf1997 yes it is, its sooooo much fun, I am a destiny fan since beta and this game has engulfed me so fast, this game is like public events and patrol done right
@@evanf1997 Its true, this might actually make me quit destiny, i just wanna keep grinding that game, and all the things in the game you can get them without spending money, including cosmetics. the devs are way too nice. I havent tested the endgame yet but the whole game looks promising, and new enemy faction will be introduced soon.
@@theeater3573isn't the game broken on PC?
Geherman that first hunter OST in the beginning man damn my soul hurts when i listen to that. Gg video just because of the reference
Well done, sir! This is the first video I’ve experienced, of yours. I like your work here, homie.
I highly enjoy (and have been looking for) the perspective of a gamer; who generally plays &/or covers (can we maybe fall ya an “Expery”…at least to some degree..?), in Live Service games & gaming, &/or Looter Shooters directly, to get a full rundown of this game. You’re the first I’ve found, & because of that…honestly, one of the better, more-honest coverages I’ve yet to see.
I appreciate your hard work, on this one! I don’t play Live Service or Looter Shooters, on the reg. But, I think this deserves a Sub.
Again…well done, kid! (I don’t say that disrespectfully. If anything, I’m disrespecting MYSELF. lol! I’m an old fuck now)
Off topic, but it's good to see Warframe still getting the respect and appreciation it deserves. DE isn't trying to make it the next big thing with every update, they're just making it fun still.
great video as always, i cannot wait for the similar video about Skull and bones 😅
Loved the vid. Also Evan bros 👊🏻
If you don't want your live service game to immediately fail, don't charge full price for it at launch. It's not rocket science !
An established universe with characters that have signature weapons and outfits doesn't seem suited to be turned into a looter/shooter in my opinion. Having a blank slate character probably works better like Destiny did with Guardians. Even too much of a story revolving around your character's personality makes it restrictive. I prefer just being a nameless character playing a small part in a bigger overall story so I can make it more my own.
I've been watching your content from the beginning and (coming from a 50 year old gamer), you are what game journalists USED to be before they became corporate.
Excellent as always Evan.
Another banger video!!!🎉🎉🎉🎉
Love the use of the fromsoftware soundtrack for the background music ❤
Restart from the begging you say? How about restarting 13 more times?
The riddler challenges are traversal time trials
How can anyone call this game a “Destiny killer”?? Even if it was a good game,the niche is just so different that I think it’s even hard to compare. Really don’t know what you were cooking with that one.
Another fire video
Captain boomerang doesn’t take a boomerang he takes the speed force gauntlet
Shoutout to those legends who recognized the prey theme playing near the end of the video ❤
I think the problem is they are trying to follow the current bungie model for live service not realizing that destiny the reason it had done so well was for its initial story at launch and then they add in the stuff later on
Subscribed cause forgotten jade was in the background 👍🏾
The industry has been trending this way for the better part of 4 years. Anyone paying attention should not have been shocked this game turned out the way it did. Hopefully Suicide Squad is the death knell for this type of monetization, game design, writing and involvement with a company like Sweet Baby Inc.
Wouldn’t you think a bad guy would feel bad about their long time nemesis actually dying? Wasn’t there a moment between the joker and Batman in one of the dark night movies? Something about needing each other?
I think execs/devs dont realize how much time is required from the player to keep up. I stopped playing destiny 2 because it feels so lame when u stop playing for a while and come back only to have a laundry list of things to do to catch up(or content is now irrelevant/unusable). When compared to another of my favorite multiplayer games, Risk of Rain 2 (I know completely different styles of games), u can come back whenever without missing a beat. The fear of missing out on cool stuff and meta weapons makes me give up on most live services entirely. I find older and now complete multiplayer experiences are way more fun than an incomplete game that expects me to treat it as a part-time job.
I think that something no one considers is that, aside from consumer interest, we don't have the money to keep live service games alive. Paying 60 bucks for an Arkham game, a complete experience that you can take your time with and milk every penny's worth of enjoyment from is one thing. Paying 70-100 dollars for the BASE game, while being expected to pay MORE money in order to experience all the content the game has to bring (cosmetics ripped out of the game to be monetized in this case), is unrealistic, especially if gaming is your hobby, and you're looking forward to experiencing more than one game this year. Everyone wants their one game to replace all games and for us to spend all the money we would on other games, on their game. It's unrealistic, and it's unfeasible.
It takes nearly 8 minutes to get through the actual intro like jesus christ
Think about it like this.
2019 Avengers Endgame came out. In 2020 Marvel's Avengers (game) releases coming hot off the heels of one of the biggest movie events. They were placing you in the role of the superheros you came to love over the course of 10 years or so. Seemed like a layup.... but it failed hard sue to the uninspired level design and the halfass live service bits. Despits the character and move set variety it failed hard.
In steps WB/ Rocksteady with an uphill battle from this game's inception. They decided to make a game about a group of characters that very few people give a damn about, killing the characters that we would much MUCH rather play as 🤔.... and decided to make this a live service/ looter game that gamers are already heavily fatigued with. Smh this is easily one of the most braindead gaming products on the market right now because this game appeals to so few people yet they were hoping for a massive success 🤦🏿
Imagine Fromsoft going live service
It will either be the greatest live service game ever made, or one of the greatest hits to the nads in industry history.
Miscalling Amanda Waller Savathûn is actually a great comparison LOL
Skibidi Squad was one of the games of all time
The game actually gets alot better when you uninstall it
Would be interested in what you could do with division.
Batman had the last laugh. Arkham will live. Squad will be forgotten.
@20:00 The fact that you said that people were p***** off at poison ivy was a girl instead of a woman was the biggest flaw that you ever said. They irritated on that they made Harley, seem like a M. A. P.
That, and ivy looks like greta thunberg
@Stereo-hb2lo 🤣I thought she was the ugly red-headed child from the toddler section of dead space 2.
Poison Ivy cannot be depicted as she was in Arkham games. That was considered misogyny. They needed a version of Poison Ivy that dressed appropriately
The flirtatious nature of Poison Ivy was considered inappropriate for Modern Gaming. So they made a new version
@@sumnahlennon5449 The character _died_ and the was _reborn_
You aren't reborn as the same adult you were when you died.
This has nothing to do with what you're trying to imply, and everything to do with... You know? logic, consistency, and stuff and whatnot.
Helldivers 2 dropped and when I say I have a new found respect for live service,with that being said,NO EXCUSES ROCKSTEADY🤣
We already HAVE seen the industry collapse. Look at how many layoffs there were in 2023. It's already happening.
So you’re telling me that a giant shark guy uses fucking guns instead of melee? GUNS?!
What a joke
Evan please do final fantasy lore videos that would be amazing
Who on earth plays more than 1 live service game at a time? Why would I play the suicide squad game when I could play Warframe/destiny/genshin or the many other live service games?
Every time I see video footage of Anthem I get sad
If WB was smart they would let creators have creative freedom instead of forcing studios to create something they did not originally want to make. Same thing happened to the DCEU whether you were a fan or not. They are just trying to cash in on their characters instead of making good games or movies about them.
Love the mass effect music
If you wanna see Superman characterized correctly in a modern project watch My Adventures with Superman
You better start finishing your HellDiver review. Jump on that trend for views
This could have been a much better experience as a Borderlands type of game. Eh, most of it could be fixed by moving it into this direction, give it actual missions and boss fights and it should be a decent enough SP / coop experience to build DLC campaigns on.
yo i like the title can't wait to grab this game for 5 buck deluxe edition like avenger game
Honestly they're 2 different type of love service games "live service" like destiny and live service like helldivers, not saying destiny is bad but it's not really live service like helldivers where it changes on how the community plays
just a reminder, theyh killed Joel from the Last of us just to screw us, and now Batman to put salt in the wound.
Would have been better if we played members of the justice league and had to fight Darkseid then later go thru some anti monitor endgame story
theres literally nothing to do in warframe after you beat the main story, the latest "story" update was roughly 10 minutes of new content and another reused run here defend thing run there defend thing gamemode
26:10 I like a lot of your points but hard disagree here. Especially when you get better loot, the other squad member can be annoyingly strong. Like you’re trying to shield harvest and deadshot comes out of nowhere and knocks them out of the animation with a status effect
Live service, just means put out half baked games and milk the community for as much money as possible. It makes me so sad to see how different gaming has become.
Just make Superman Rocksteady. Bizzaro dlc with actual super powers for this game would be a nice bandaid.
Suicide sqaud is definitely a canary in the coal mine situation
After HellDivers, jump on your review for Skull & Bones. All the gaming UA-camrs are doing it
I gotta disagree entirely with the memorial for kevin at the end when they disrespect his character and depth the ENTIRE GAME especially considering none of the suicide squad gets a honorable death besides wonder women i just entirely blame this mess on sweet baby inc
yeah this dude lost all respect for what he said about kevin. the man was going through cancer treatment he had other things to worry about . i bet they didnt even tell him they were going to end batman like that. this guy in this video lost all respect from me with that little speil about kevin what a pathetic worthless human this guy is and he didnt once mention the woke idological slant that this game has its really pathetic tbh.
EA should have save Anthem
Batman became Calus
For how short the game is, it's really funny how quickly it gets stale in terms of gameplay
DC already have an MMO why didn't WB just reboot that.
I enjoy a lot about SSKTJL. Especially since I've fallen out of love with D2. As Bungie just don't give a single fuck anymore. But KTJL has a lot of issues, mostly, not even an endgame. The loot is excellent and could be improved on to make it ace.
"she died as a lady so was brought back as a child which makes sense so I thought it was fine". Reaaaally stop and try to think about how that makes any sense whatsoever lol. The writers still chose to make her a child and chose to have Harley Quinn make creepy pedo comments towards her.
yeah you think this dude is a map or something? this dude sounds like he has some issues . cant even critique the game properly. i guess not everyone can be a game critic. just because you play video games doesnt make you a game critic this guy apparently thinks he is, and he ignored all the issues in the game everyone has brought up before his video its just sad
The real problem is that rocksteady became cocksweaty
Live service is the gaming METAH! For now. We just a paying customer
Normally me watching someone play the game makes me want to buy it. This game made me hate it. It felt tailor made to be everything i hate, from humor, writing, all the way to game play and live service.
i refuse to preorder and will continue to do so. the state of gaming is so sad, i don’t have time to binge these multiplayer games and a lot of games are either copy and paste (i.e. madden) or just complete messes on startup, and you don’t get a solid game until years later or you have to pay to win. there’s no winning with the industry - it’s been corrupted by greed and we need another crash like 1983 to really change things. it’s up to the gamers who complain to stop buying these shit products, but you cant change stupidity, just observe it.
Honestly I’m just waiting for monster hunter wilds
I mean, Bungie kind of led the charge on modern live service, and showed everyone that live service can in fact make a butt load of money and garner a massive fan base, no matter the state of the game at launch, so…blame them.
I love how people don’t understand that “live service”. Means a CI/CD pipelines and SDK toolkits.
“Live service” means building a game with modern software development practices.
The old games used to be built with the “waterfall” method where you set are arbitrary due date for the software to be complete.
Live service allows Agile development.
Building the backend of the game is literally the hardest part. Adding new levels if very easy comparatively.
If you know software engineering then that will never go away.
There is a difference between Live service and an rpg/looter-shooter that you have to grind for 8 days
😊
Live service literally means a game that gets continuously updated.
Now, if that live service game is also a bad rpg then it is a bad game.
It doesn’t mean the concept of “Live Service” is bad. The game is bad.
The concept of Live Service is _indeed_ bad because now you're paying *more* money for _less_ games.
And God forbid if the service gets shut down before the conclusion of the road map. You end up with an incomplete game being sold a _full_ price.
This garbage should be the end of Rock Steady. I'm sick of studios dining for free in perpetuity based on a single legendary game they made that one time. Dice got away with making crap games because they got slapped with "legendary studio" status because they caught lightning in a bottle once.
I hate live service games, i'm a full time single player gamer. Even if SP games disappear, i've got 25 years of single player back-catalog in my game libraries that can sustain me for at least another 10 years. After that i'll probably find another hobby.
Flash still looks like the Ezra muller p3do... theres a GFX downgrade of note. As i am watching this video, i booted my steam and started downloading all the batman games again - side note, queued mad max as well just because of similarity in game play
Thank you Evan, your content is amazing as always!!!
Live service games are supposed to make more money, yet, the irony is that more and more fans have been TELLING these developers what they want to spend their money on and they’re not listening. 😂 And when the fans get just another live service game, get pissed off, don’t buy it, and then upper management and writers wonder why their game failed… 🤡 it’s obvious to me, idk how these higher ups don’t get it yet.
I need to be honest here: I HATE MODERN GAMING.
I don't find joy or excitement in new games. Live-service is an excuse to release an unfinished product. I miss when gaming was about passion and fun, and not about money and Eververse. The fact that games like Mass Effect, Stardew Valley, Dark Souls and others are replayable, over and over, speaks volumes.
I've spent hours and hours in these old games, and still enjoy everything about them after years.
Everything is worthless now. I'd rather be stuck with the old games that I have now without internet, than getting one of these poor excuses of games as a "gift". I'd insult whoever gave it to me.
Also, the Rebirth, Sinestro Corps War, Blackest Night, Brightest Day and War of Green Lanterns comics are my favorite Green Lantern comics. Killing off John like that and the ring issue is bullshit.
I agree wholeheartedly about live service games and the greenlantern lore the latter extends to every other character as well.
If you ask destiny is killing itself.
This whole game is a side mission
Let me tell you what killed it for me the live service and a horrible company named sweetbaby inc who's a cancer to the video game industry i knew this game was going to be horrible rock steady ain't who they used to be.
Mr. Evanf1997 how are you today?
i will just stop playing games
my proudest refund ever.
only thing that will kill destiny is itself