one can dislike the way chloe has been written without denying how she's been written. personally, I wish chloe had been written as a more complex and redeemable person, even if she ultimately doesn't get redeemed, because I enjoy that kind of character more for both heroes and villains. but that isn't the reality of this character, and never has been.
Very understandable! Yeah I feel the MLB writers tend to exaggerate teenagers and what they do quite a bit, like the extreme stalking or the literal crimes they have commited... but eh thats Thomas for ya
@@MiraculouslyLazy I agree, im just disappointed, im pretty neutral on Chloé and i knew that there probably wasn't going to be a redemption arc, but i still feel something there, like i understand her past but i dont justify her actions and even if she stayed the villain, cant we make her more complex than just a stereotypical bully 😮💨
Maybe this is just the fanfic reading side of me or something ;-; i also think, at least for me, when i saw the concept art for queen bee, i thought there was gonna be a Chloé redemption or something of the sort. I dont know if im just dumb for thinking that 😔
@@SilverSnow_Helix Not at all. That was the Plan, Jeremy just Let Thomas derail the show when they took their eyes of the ball to start production of the Miraculous Movie. That is why Zoe was invented heck Chloe even calls her a "Knockoff Queen Bee" and with good reason Zoe stole Chloe's redemption, and heck even stole her "repressed homosexulity" subtext too. I suppose it's possible they decided to have Luka fix Chloe later on and they couldn't do that is they owned up to Chloe being gay on the show, so they shuffle that over to Zoe, and hope we all forget Chloe lusting over Ladybug and the implied kissing of Sabrina. I think repressed homosexuality is something they'd be unlikely to bring up again for Chloe, she yeah sorry fans for robbing you all of a "Gay Icon" there I guess. How the hell Luka can save her I really don't know. but if they end season 5 or 6 with Chloe being sent to Jail I'll be giving Thomas some major stink eye. As I wouldn't blame Chloe or even LIla for that I blame in Universe the characters for abandoning her, and outside of it i'd blame Thomas for being so extreme in his choices. Like making Chloe murderous.
Let's also talk about how Chloe got Socqueline suspended, and held back, for something outside of school. Damocles is such a pushover. Chloe might as well be the principal with how she can expel or suspend anyone she hates.
I do not even think the Mayor hd such a power to fire Damocles: Andre he is not a member of school staff. At his best, he could ask Damocles why he punished Chloe and whether the detention was fair or not; in the latter case, he could maybe call the police to arrest Damocles for power abuse, not fire Damocles by himself
Yeah and that there are a lot of people relazing why Marinette is the way she is and that she should have never trusted chole with the Bee miraculous and yeah chole's redemption arc never worked for me and yeah it's like ladybug's rewarding her biggest enemy if I were her I would only give her a miraclus if I had no other options what chole did was unforgivable and yeah I see why when Andra divorces adrudy he also disowns chole
Some have pointed out something that one might see as a flaw with the entire show once someone shines a light on it. which is why the hell is Marinette seen as being responsible for Chloe's personal conduct, they can't stand each other (seemingly) Adrien's behaviour on reflection can only be seen as bizarre, cruel or just weird. He sees his Childhood friend being a jerk, and what does he do "take her in hand" train her like a poorly behaved dog ? Nope, he ignores her entirely for months, acts like he's disgusted to be in her presence and lets he do what she likes. He both shows no concerns for those Chloe upsets, and neither does he show any concern for Sabrina or for Chloe herself, at least Nino was initially shown to think Gabriel was a lousy parent, and then they retconned that so the class has no idea how terrible Adrien's home life is so "Marinette can be the one to see it and try to save him". The whole show is twisted into crazy shapes just so that Marinette can be the one to react to any situation. even if it makes way more sense for someone else to be doing it. It's kinda like how Alya and Adrien barely speak to each other, the show simply didn't want there to be a relationship there at all so it makes it a blank space with nothing in it. Kinda like how Chloe isn't allowed to have any real opinion on Chef Cesaire and her on Chloe. or how Jagged and Penny barely interact with Chloe, or how Luka & Kagami are being actively kept away from her. Any path for improvement is cut off for Chloe, and only Marinette is allowed to be he path to redemption, the problem being Marinette doesn't see Chloe as someone she wants to save, she can't stand the girl and isn't interested in making an effort to improve her as Ladybug or Marinette, she just fobs her off. Then even weirder when Chloe has a shopping list of legit reasons to be angry with Ladybug the show just ignores them all and makes up some random nonsense. & it even implies that Marinette has no clue why Chloe would even be upset with her, you can see the shock when Chloe is angry and distraught and shoves her aside in Queen Banana. & yet we the viewer is also shown Chloe having a really lousy day, he best male friend being manipulated into abandoning when she's hurt and the terrorist basically saying he's going to keep re-akumatising her until she drops or he does. & what does the show do in reaction to all that ? It decides she going to willingly and repeatedly allow herself to be akumatised and treat it like it doesn't matter. The show is just plane strange really, so yeah I blame the writing not Chloe.
@@virnalassiter382 Chloe should have used the Bee comb only when nobody else was available like in Malediktor or when a hand more was better than a hand less (Catalyst-Mayura and Miraculer) but needed to open her eyes on her fault, that she never did.
People fail to understand that most Chloé fans are disappointed with her season 4-5 writing. Her development was ruined and the show made her into an incompetent villain. Bad writing.
Honestly, I think the Chloe fans are just seeing Chloe the way they want to see her character. People can complain all they want, but all of the heroes have spent their time since their debut episodes making an effort to do good in Paris and keep the people safe from villains. If you really look back on the second and third seasons, you can see that Chloe/Queen Bee did not; and please don't count Malediktator or Heroes Day, she wasn't really doing anything for Paris, she was just doing stuff for clout. If I were a citizen of any city she lived in, I wouldn't want her as my hero.
- Personally, the episode comes off as, "This episode is short so here's Chloe being the worst to pad out the time." Chloe's role on the flashback only serves to reinforce what we already know. She has fun hurting Marinette, Kim had a huge crush on her, Sabrina is her willing-unwilling minon, and the teachers at this school are so useless I'm surprised they're not the villains. Maybe if the episode was from Adrien's perspective and he learned of what Chloe actually did to Marinette for all those years then contrasting that with Kim's unintentionally harmful prank. Then you'd have him realizing that Chloe can't change because she doesn't regret her actions whereas Kim does and aplogises for it. Reinforcing that Chloe is irredeemable because she has nothing to loose. If Chloe is cut out, then there's a solid episode on a past experience Marinette had with Kim and why she's so hesitant and anxious about her love life. It makes sense narratively since Kim has always been portrayed as airheaded, and for him to be an insensitive prankster isn't out of character for him. It feels more organic because Kim isn't pranking her to be malicious he just thinks it's funny and doesn't understand why it was harmful because they're in his home turf. To Kim, swimming and being in the pool is the best thing ever, there's no way it can hurt anyone, especially not when you FALL OFF THE HIGH DIVE. He only reflects when he's directly confronted about what he's done by his friends and is actually remorseful. As far as Chloe goes in the story, she doesn't add anything of value other than to be a scapegoat for other character's development rather than having any of her own.
And let's not forget how Chloe treats Sabrina, she basically bullied the girl into carrying out the things that under normal circumstances, Sabrina wouldn't agree to do, and Sabrina finally breaks and calls Marinette about everything that Chloe has used her to do. It showed that Chloe is manipulative, she will force people to do what she wants, this way she not only gets to satisfy her unhealthy desire to see other people suffer, she also have a way to get out of everything she did. When she bullies people to a point they need to see the principal, it was never Chloe who is deemed to be responsible, and I think that played into the part of why she can't have a redemption arc. It's best to teach children that they need to be responsible for their own actions when they're young, they're like 15 in this show, and Chloe has been bullying Marinette for 3 years, that could only mean that Chloe started Marinette's trauma when they were 12, just finished elementary school and entering middle school. And she's still bullying Marinette every single chance she gets, like that's a lot of chances for the next 3 years of high school they need to go through, I imagine that she's never been deemed responsible for the 3 years period prior to entering high school, and that's the reason why she deemed the behaviors she display as acceptable because no one in the last 3 years had actually gotten through to her about her behaviors were not okay. I'm not saying that Marinette stalking Adrien is an okay thing to do, like I wish Alya was there to sort out Marinette's love problems so she didn't turn into a stalker like she did. But we actually see Marinette sort things out with Alya's help and is finally able to spend time with Adrien without stalking him. That's a big improvement. That's the difference between Marinette and Chloe. When other people do things that are not okay, they eventually learned how to be a decent human being, learning from their mistakes and become a better person, Chloe never realized her mistakes, she took the chances others give her as something they're supposed to give her. But other people gave her chances because they believed that she could change for the better and out of the kindness of their heart, not because they're supposed to give her second chances again and again. Bullying is no joke, I heard a story that the root cause of a 15 year boy's death was bullying, that's also the reason why I'm really concerned when my little sister tells me that a lot of people don't like one particular person in the class because that's going into the dangerous territory of potentially bullying, and I don't want any kid to experience that. In one of the episodes, Chloe said that she doesn't love anyone, and then the creators pointed out with the next line that Chloe only loves herself, I think that pretty much sums up her character.
Most of the time Chloe's behaviours treated as jokes. Plot device at worst. Being a joke or a plot device is her whole purpose in S1. I get what you want to say, but mlb is not a good example to give.
@@Mebro-m6dit is not treated as a joke. They always makes sure the audience sees that what she is doing is wrong. Marrienette on the other hand gets a pass for her stalkerish and borderline yandere behaviour.
I haven't seen this episode yet, but knowing how much Chloe has damaged her self-esteem and watching this video just makes me disappointed that people would still support her. Yes, her character was pretty sassy and funny sometimes but also knowing how horrible the bullying was...I can't look at Chloe the same. Breaks my heart for Marinette as someone who has been bullied and has been in the shoes of Marinette's old friend.
Yeah I hated her sense the first season and yeah I heard that show would bring more superheroes I exclude chole because yeah she did absolutely nothing for me to see her as a superhero and yeah even if her half sister was just a nice version of her I still prefer her over chole as queen bee
@@virnalassiter382 I prefer Chloe's Transformation to that of Vesperia's I like the music better on it too. I miss those set piece transformations they are so poorly done now, just look how little effort they put into Mister Bug and Lady Noire, the leeched a lot of the excitement out of their return by doing a cheap transformation.
I respect your opinion I like the vespria transformation music more than queen bee's oh and as you can see when Zoe was chosen to be a superhero the first time just like marionette she didn't feel quifaled for the job and yeah that's why marinette's costume was plain represents feeling like the wrong choice so why isn't zoe's coustme plain? And by the second time she's chosen I think she should have felt quilted now so why is kitty noir's coustme makes her look like she's not quilted for the job? Unless maybe the animator's are too lazy to get more pictures on their mind and yeah mylene didn't feel quifaled herself that's why only the mask made her look like a real superhero the rest looks more like a wonzzie than supersuit and yeah Sabrina Ivan Marc and nathiel's coustmes they don't even look super duper despite the fact that Marc and nathiel create superhero comics I see why we didn't get a transformation for kitty noir if kitty noir didn't get a transformation just because it scares a lot of people than why aspik? Aspik makes Adrian look worse than before even worse than cat walker and kitty noir combined and yeah I don't even know if julka was excited to be a superhero or not because yeah she seems not to be in the mood and her coustme represents her being one of my top favorites so like yeah is she hinding her true personality and showing her true personality as her alter ego because of her father like Adrian?
the fans who support and excuse so much CHloe are like the ones for Draco Malfoy or Sevrrus Snape: as soon as they see the a**h**e crying, they forget the faults the characters never repent for and the bullying that goes on
Is anyone talking about how hypocritical Chloé was at the end of the episode? She calls Adrien a traitor for disowning her, ignoring the fact that she caused the breakdown of their friendship by not keeping her promise to be nicer to others and proving he can't reason with her in "Queen Banana". To say nothing of the sheer hypocrisy of _Chloé_ of all people, the same girl who turned on Ladybug and Chat Noir and nearly handed the entire city to Hawk Moth simply because they denied her something that was never hers to begin with, calling *anyone* a traitor.
@@joseph86255 Nah, just inconsistent writing, because Marinette is very much a hypocrite too but the show doesn't even address it, let alone treat it as her character flaw.
The problem is that Marinette trauma does not make sense, since there is no preparation or foreshadowing. She wasn’t traumatized by the pool in Mr Pigeon 72 and seems ok with Kim and Sabrina, even though they supposedly helped Chloe playing her dirty tricks. For Mylène case : people tend to forget she has a loving father who cares about her, and supporting friends on the contrary of Chloe. Plus, Chloe used to admire her mother a lot, and acted the way she is because she didn’t get proper education. Concerning Ladybug, she feeled betrayed by her in the first place, since she played with her feelings in Miraculer (by not being honest with her). Hawkmoth played with her insecurities and fear of abandonment where Ladybug chose to give the miraculous to Kagami. Of course, she is still a bad person and that’s no excuse, but that kinda explains the way she thinks. Chloe needs guidance and therapy, not being left alone by herself. And besides, she is still a teenager. She still can change.
I agree your last sentence, but for this to work, it would need an immense amount of time to be dedicated just for her. Where would you find a person to be willing to do this? Moreover, does anyone deserve this? To sacrifice all their time and effort just to redeem her, and tolerate all her wrongdoings in the process? I'd be happy if someone is willing to do this, but honestly we cant have this as an reasonable expectation. And the most important thing is, the guidance and therapy would only work if she herself has the intension to turn over a new leaf. We do see that she had shown some in season 2 and 3, but apparently her desire to hold power overpowers her faint trace of kindness. Same like many chloe stans, I've always hoped that chloe would get a redemption arc eventually, but the decision made by the writers to present how things are now is reasonable.
Actually I don’t feel like she is willing to overpower others. She is just reproducing toxic behaviors taught by her mother. Also she doesn’t look like to know what “power” is. Will that excuse all her wrong doing ? Of course not ! And Marinette and her friends have all the rights to hate her. But she can atone her mistakes by being influenced with a healthy relationship. For example, Andre actually learning to stand for himself and take responsibility in his daughter’s education. After all, it’s his role as a father. Or maybe Sabrina standing for herself and apologizing to Marinette for her wrongdoings ( not gonna lie, she is not better than Chloe). Also I don’t think she needs that much screentime. There is much more things the series needs to develop than useless drama. Like Lila or the Agreste story.
I will break down for you why these other episodes do not fit the narrative: Dark Cupid: This is because Marinette's fear isn't Kim, Sabrina, or Chloe. Marinette's true fear was love ITSELF. Think about it: Marinette has been in a state of Dissociative amnesia during the entire run of the series. Dissociative amnesia can be so powerful, it can cause a person to block out entire timelines and the person/person involved in said timeline. As this was her state, her trauma didn't activate due to the simple reason that there was no trigger. Love itself is her trigger and there were no moments requiring Marinette to express feelings or vulnerability in this episode. Therefore, Dark Cupid does not work. Mr. Pigeon 72: Here it's the same thing. Many people have asked why she wasn't afraid when she fell into the water. Again. Water isn't her fear. Love is her fear. In Mr. Pigeon 72, she wasn't faced with being vulnerable to Adrien. Therefore, this episode does not work either. Here's why her trauma DID work in Derision: If you pay attention to the episodes that happened before this one, you'll remember Marinette saying "I have a problem but idk what" everytime she and Adrien get close. Every time Adrien tries to express his newfound feelings, she shuts him down instantly and runs away. This is her trauma breaking through! As the episodes pass, it slowly increases in severity. Then we reach the morning of her first official date with Adrien. She's terrified and doesn't know why! Panic attacks occur every 5 minutes, She can't think straight, breathe straight, even! As she gets closer to her moment with Adrien, it gets worse as all the memories are coming back. She sees Kim, Adrien tries to bring her into the water, and that's her snapping point! SHE LOSES IT AND HAS NO IDEA WHY SHE'S LOST IT!! This was because...the trauma finally broke through after being buried for nearly a year and it all came flooding back. I hope this explains things and if you want, you can ask me to clear up anything.
Chloe's redemption arc was thrown out the window as soon as they first thought out this episode's plot. Chloe was so well written in season 2 when she got the bee miraculous, this was obviously well before derison was ever an episode. In miracle queen, she was angry at marinette for not choosing her to save her parents,. In the same episode, half the identities of the other miraculous users were revealed to hawkmoth. Then, in season 4, Ryuko, King monkey, Viperion, Rena rouge, Carapace and Pegasus (who were known to Gabriel) were allowed to use there miraculous. As much as I love Chloe, this episode makes me sad because she will probably never get the redemption that was promised. In style queen, she wants the validation of her mother and she left her. She says to her "Mom, why don't you love me?" Chloe was made up as they went along, she went from bully to hero back to bully. I hope that people can see both sides and that chloe and marinette stans don't keep fighting
Except if you really look at everything, she was not going to be redeemed. She wasn’t promised any redemption and neither were you people need to just look at Chloe objectively and stop thinking about it through the lens of what they wanted.
That's really true: because I remember getting bullied at only 10 years old- by a mean girl by the name of Jackie Griffin- whose actions reminded me of Chloe's- so message to anyone who watches this show. Don't Support Bullying.
as someone who has been bullied i get what yr saying but chloe stans see chloe as a character who could have had potential. it would be nice have a character that used to be a bad person and changed for the better. people keep on looking at chloe like she is actually made her mistakes. but chloe know is not even a bully. she is a pure abuser. honestly chloe stans whenever they think about chloe they think about a character reedemed after season 2.
I’m so surprised that the fandom still supports chole and blaming it in her mommy issues is no excuse for her actions. Chole has had many chances but never took them. Edit: My notifications 😭😭
Maybe someone who is honestly bad is more likeable that someone who lies to themselves, and hurts others while denying they do (i.e. Marinette through much of season 4) But I don't think we should dismiss the criticism of Thomas being a jerk with Chloe's writing as he actually has changed a lot. Chloe wouldn't have prevented Zoe from walking through the lobby, or even really cared that Marinette was in the Hotel, that literally makes no sense even in the context of season 4. Chloe didn't care that Marinette was in the Hotel, Marinette has not really gone out of her way to upset he really enough for her to react like that. Maybe if Chloe had found out Ladybug was Marinette a lot of her actions would make more sense. Heck doubly so if she found out Adrien was Cat Noir too. But I do think You have to read the subtext with Chloe as there tends to be a fair bit of it, even Lila occasionally lets some truth slip into her lies. & Chloe will often say the exact opposite of what she means I feel. That said I think Chloe thinks Marinette is a "Freak" and she is warning him off, I can't say she's wrong, just tactless about it. but as I said all that season 5 is just Thomas acting crazy when he's off the leash. He makes much the same excuses on twitter and then get angry when people point out he's not reflecting canon he's re-writing canon. like he expects people to forget, kinda ironic that he suffered the same issue himself with Kim's name being changed without them telling him. Despite it already being on screen in the end titles of the Class Movie. So now we have him saying "Oh Chloe always had these extreme behaviours" yeah and lets be honest every new viewer the show picks up is going to notice the same issue as people do now. All that is changing is people are not having to find excuses for why she wasn't like that for 3 seasons.
It’s not an excuse but it does explain her behaviour. It would also just be nice to see a redemption arc lol, feels a bit weird that the writers showed her mom being abusive and neglectful but still decided to just keep her as a bully
What I will say about Marinette's "stalking" is that most of the time she is influenced by her friends, sometimes even outright forced. Marinette has said many times that she didn't want to, or she was nervous, and she was ignored and then blamed for the consequences that happened. Alya is the MAIN CULPRIT in this, I mean she tried to force Marinette into an elevator with Adrien despite her saying NO. Even Rose told her that they wouldn't hang out with her if she didn't give him a gift, meaning they'd ice her out. That's so out of pocket and there's so many times that she wanted to give up on Adrien and tried and was literally dragged back into liking him because of others.
I had wanted Chloe to get redeemed back in season 2. I’m disappointed that she didn’t, but I understand that she couldn’t be redeemed by this point in the series. I doubt the writers had this episode planned way ahead of time, although they did manage to fit it well into the story. I want say, to play devil’s advocate, I can see where Chloe stans are coming from. People should be allowed to enjoy watching whatever characters they find interesting, and when someone tells a fan that they are morally wrong for liking a character that’s done bad things, that leaves the fan with no choice but to defend the character. Too frequently, people wrap a fan’s morally with the characters they enjoy watching the most. Sometimes villains are just fun to watch! That doesn’t mean they should win or have done nothing wrong. That doesn’t mean people who like them are evil. I also wouldn’t be surprised if some fans relate to Chloe and want her to get better because that means they could get better, but that’s another issue. I honestly don’t think we should ever consider a kid or teenage to be beyond redemption, even when they’ve done bad things. Everyone deserves the chance to get better, and many people do get better after getting therapy or other mental health treatment.
@@christinamomern9100 We don’t know for sure. At least, I haven’t heard about any writers confirming if it was planned or not, so we can only speculate. I’ve heard both evidence for it being planned and evidence against it being planned. I’d believe they had some idea of this backstory, but I doubt they had it all planned out. Not that it matters; it’s only speculation.
Yeah you can like them but don't try to defend them for the awful shit they do, like with Dottore fans (from genshin) he literally experimented on CHILDREN and ppl still try to find a way to defend it like "oh he probs has a terrible background" no you don't need a terrible background to be a terrible character, like Mylene said her mum left yet she isn't being a brat like Chloe but yet here we are I like Dabi as a villian character (from MHA) but I'm not saying him murdering innocent ppl is justified because his dad was abusive 😂 like no he is morally wrong for what he's done even if his dad played a part in making who he is the same applies to Chloe stop defending her and condem her for her actions because ya'll love to condem Marinette for hers but can't do it for Chloe
"Chloé isn't a bully, she's an abuser" The truth has been spoken, and it's about time Chloé stans realize the true nature of this character. She's abusive, cruel, sadistic, dangerous and insensitive, just like Lila. There's a reason these two biatches have been getting along so well lately. Chloe is just less subtle and more violent in her attacks, she has the power of her father to escape the consequences of all her abusive acts. Chloé is an antagonist, a villain, and it's okay to like her as that. Good villains aren't always those with a tragic backstory and understandable motivations, sometimes villains can just be despicable people that are written to be hated, or characters with background that can explain why they behave a certain way, but doesn't excuse their lack of heart and humanity in the slightlest. I'm getting tired of people thinking Chloé is a great person deep inside who deserves the Bee Miraculous and that Marinette was unfair to her or that Chloé is justified in her horrible actions. The truth is that Chloé isn't a good person, and she chose to remain that way, even if people gave her the chance to become better. She was never interrested in being a hero or a better person, she just wanted the power of the Bee Miraculous and Ladybug's respect and attention and threw a tantrum when she could no longer have it. Just like you said, Chloé only ever show up kindness and decency as long as she could get something in return. So MiraculouslyLazy, thank you a lot for this video 😭
I have a lot of amusement with how every word someone says about Chloe also applies to Marinette. They are broken reflections of each other, just look at the speech Marinette gives when Lila is making a play for her class presidency it's entirely made of self delusions about herself, they even gave Juleka and Rose a reaction shot showing they were not buying it and that some of Lila's jabs really did land home with some force. Marinette is a selfish person, so is Chloe, maybe they will change one day maybe they won't but I certainly am not going to agree with Thomas that all of Marinette's sins need to be forgiven or forgotten and all of Cat Noir's and Chloe's remembered and held against them. If you want an example of someone who the show has some very strange ideas about look at Felix, he is likely the dark reflection of the worst of Adrien as you can see he behaves no at all unlike Cat Blanc.
quiet 90 something marionette is not selfish she just seems that way when she attempts to get rid of other girls "dating" him she's really very sweet and kind and generous and yeah I agree with everything you say let me explain all the bad things chole did that I never liked the fact that she was a superhero lady wifi got alya in trouble princess fragrance 1.she hurt rose's feelings telling her she can't see prince alia which is what caused her to get akumized 2.she stole tikki and refused to give it back what a criminal Mr pigeon 1. Made Sabrina do her homework again 2.Copied marionette's school assignment 3.blamed her for cheating rogercop trying to convince the whole class that marionette stole her bracelet and tried to convince roger to aresst her darkblade like wise kid said she mauplatied Sabrina to sneak into marionette's house and still something that they could use against marionette timebreaker she broke Alex's watch and that lend her getting akumized refleakta she forced Sabrina to lock julka to keep her from entering the photo shoot which got her to akumize someone again ladybug and cat noir origins part 1 just like in the flashback of when she was a freshman chole bullies marionette on the first day of school stoneheart when Adrian arrives at fransco DuPont high school chole makes marionette think that Adrian is a bully AND put penot butter on her chair despair bear she pulled the fire alarm and blamed it on marionette and not only that the whole class except her is forced to clean the backyard robostis while everyone else was so impressed with Max's robot's friend chole wasn't zombizo 1.sabtiozed marinette's gift for ms bustia 2.she apologizes to ms bustia who is the person rewarding her for it but not marionette who worked so hard on the present style queen stole the miraculoues of the bee instead of waiting Intel she got a chance to give it back to ladybug queen wasp exposed her identity to Paris gamer 2.0 hurt max's feelings lieing to him about everyone thinking his game is boring stormy weather 2 insulting aurora heart hunter although ladybug was being selfish of choosing kagmi over her just to keep kagmi away from Adrian I don't scold her for not choosing chole because yeah chole was so ready to be queen bee just because her parents are akumized and yeah she just betrayed ladybug for no good reason and yeah I would have nothing have made her a miraculous holder if I were ladybug miracle queen exposed all the miraculoues holders of season 2 and 3 except ladybug and cat noir sole crusher desrispting her sister for who she is queen banana tried to steal her sister's place Gabriel agreste recording the school meeting defagration laughed at marionette falling off the chair perfection bullied marionette during yoga class derision put ants in her locker messed up her jeans and threw her in the pool to death and finally adoration got expelled and almost had her friends turn against her
Yeah I'm glad that Lila was never trusted with a miraculous and yeah her alter ego as a superhero was really a supervillain pretending to be a superhero she's the nightmare of this show and yeah definitely donsen't deserve better and yeah at least she's not idolizing a superhero at the time chole was fan girling over ladybug I kind of wish she knew that Marinette is ladybug so that she would hate ladybug earlier but now that she's officially left ladybug's side don't need her to know anything now I just prefer Lila over chole on villny Marinette's problems with Lila are alot more complicated than her problems with chole so yeah I only value chole over Lila sense yeah there were good moments with her
There's still people giving Chloé plenty of excuses for her despicable behavior while implying that Marinette Marinette deserved to be bullied by Chloe
@@maellesaliou5871 that is awful. Chloe started by treating like crap everyone was not as rich as her: why should this be Mari’s fault?! And being neglected by Audrey does not justify Chloe’s behavior that is as awful as Audrey’s one: Chloe herself should be the 1st to pay respect after what she saw in Audrey
@@MiraculouslyLazyYEAH BC YALL ARE SLOW YOU CANT TELL HOW THEY RUINED HER CHARACTER AND WANTED TO REPLACE CHLOE WITH ZOE AND IF CHLOE WAS A NICE CHARACTER THERR WOULDNT EVEN BE A SEASON 1 WITH OUT HER I COULD CARE LEES ABOUT SOME FAKE TRAUMA 😹 that was out in 4 seasons later to ruin her
With Marinette it's also important to note she is called out fot it and she herself acknowledges that it's crazy, like in Season 5 in what I'll call Glaciator 3, she talks about how her crush was making her act crazy and in the worst ways. The stalking is never presented as a good thing.
For me I LOVED this episode. Not only does it show more from Marinette other than her love life but we also see how bullying can really be. Teachers won't do anything, other students are afraid to stand up for the bullied person and how it can affect even after really long time after the bullying has ended. Yes I know this show is bad but I think it's so bad that it's good 💀 And this episode captured it perfectly and finally some good writing
The reason i hate this episode isn't bcs of Chloe, but how it kills so many characters just to emphasize how bad she is. Here's a list: -Kim was humiliated by her, yet still calls her the most beautiful and funniest girl IN FRONT OF HIS GIRLFRIEND. Is this dude brain dead or something? -Mari was abused by her, yet for seasons, she's never shown to have any actual hostility towards her. They're portrayed as rivals, or just mutual dislike. It makes Mari looks stupid for ever acting kind and giving chances for her. Heck, she was even sad when Adrien was sad that Chloe was leaving in Malediktator. She was supposed to be the one who held a week long party bcs Chloe's finally gone -Adrien just now stood up against her, not for the countless times she's being a bad person. Heck, she publicly shows willing to get akumatized in Deflagration, and he said nothing about it? It makes him a simp who only grows spine when his gf is in trouble just to make us think like he's protective. No, it makes him an apathist until its convenient -Tom and Sabine becomes horrible parents for not even trying to change school for their daughter -Sabrina becomes a huge hypocrite bcs in Adoration, she has problem with stealing, but here she's willing, even enjoying, serving an abuser? -Im not gonna bother with the teachers. Ive seen dead rats with more competency than they ever have So yeah, definitely the second worst episode ever. This has been my opinion, if you disagree, leave a reply, id like to see someone else's perspective
Sabrina lacks a backbone, because CHloe is the only "friend" she has ever had. Toxic relationship Adrien, similar, because he had no friends before going to public school, apart from Chloe. MAybe he thought for months he could reason CHloe and now he opened his eyes. Kim is the real inconsistent, because he understood what an ass Chloe is already in Dark Cupid
This explains all the issues I have with the episode. I appreciate it because it provides a better understanding of Marinette's personality, but when I look at it from the perspective of the whole show, it feels awkward. That's why I feel as if it might have been add-in at a later point. - I think this show should have used more flashbacks for us to have a more rounded understanding narratively. If the flashbacks of Chloe and Kim's abuse were shown earlier (even just a glimpse), it would explain more of how she thinks and acts towards Adrian, even Chat Noir (possibly her mentality as Ladybug). In my opinion, those flashbacks alone would have made the show way more engaging (at least for me). In these past 7ish years, all of the narrative points that those flashbacks would have matured felt one-dimensional, underdeveloped, or confusing. - Another point is that Marinette's stalking most of the time (I have to rewatch to check) was not addressed as problematic, both in the story's world (i.e. other characters) and in the narration (the story expressing it as so); It appeared that the show is suggesting that Marinette's stalking behavior is not an issue, which is troubling given that she is the main character of a children's program and is typically depicted as a virtuous individual. If we were given more material to analyze this aspect of her, there would probably be fewer people upset with her. So again, this feels out of nowhere. - I have been watching this show since I was young, but I no longer expect good narrative progression, and my emotional investment has greatly decreased. I'm only here to see how it ends, so I stopped caring about the main cast, including Chloe. This just points out to me more weird things, in this story.
Another point is that Marinette holds no resentment toward Kim throughout the show. Yes, we do see resentment from Marienette toward Chloe, but nothing to Kim. Why?
Chloe is really an awful person, I feel bad for Marinette, and that was very sad about what happened in the flashback. Chloe should be a lot of trouble for everything.
It hurts me knowing this character had emotional moments and was at time honest in front of ladybug and cat noir. I actually had hope for her, even shed a tear. How could she go from that, to being an even worse bully than she was before? How does that happen?
I loved Chloe I was a fan and I used to blame her actions because of the way she was raised or treated by her parents but now I really can’t look at her the same way I did before after watching S5 EP14. I actually had hope for her character to have improvement but now I think her character is useless and disgusting. Also I don’t think the show is going anywhere so I stopped watching recently because it became really messed up for me and I don’t see the point in watching anymore. Hopefully, the show will go somewhere good and I also hope that Chloe’s character will get the hate it deserves but it’s not too late for the producers to change Chloe or make her feel bad about herself in general.
4:39 it's so ironically funny to me how this scene was shown I'm no chloe stan but damn was season 2 a ride and I was reallyyy hoping for Chloe to get a redemption arc because like in the episode zombizou she had POTENTIAL to be redeemed but unfortunately it was thrown away.. 5:26 as someone who has a "friend" like this, I agree so much to your statement like what you said with Mylene, just because your mom abandoned you, doesn't give you the excuse to be bratty and selfish. Although it does depend on your environment because even if Mylene didn't grew up without a mom, she still had a loving father. Chloe on the other hand was spoiled to death and was never given any actual love and/or discipline by Andre. 6:17 I might seem offended but not really so tell me why is my dislike for both girls stupid? This show is such a trainwreck and I just like to laugh at how stupid the writing for the show is. 6:37 same with Chloe and by the time people called her out on her ways, she was already too bratty and uncaring to listen to them. Andre should be a better father instead of just giving Chloe what she wants 6:48 again I was really disappointed when Chloe wasn't redeemed she honestly seem to actually care for ms bustier :(( (and for sabrina in that scene in the episode ladybug)
she cares Bustier only because Bustier is "nice" u like Audrey. Threality is that Bustier is a naive person who never punishes bullies, therefore Chloe thinks she is always right. Chloe apologized Bustier for disappointing her, SHE DID NOT feel guilty for vandalizing a work that costed time and had an affective value. Bustier too should have pointed this, not only "our apologize is the best birthday gift for me". The worst maybe is that Marinette was so moved by this tearful apologize that did not ask for a deserved apologize
Imagine you have 2 characters as antogonists in a show: -One of these 2 characters is an abuser father that abuses his son, locked him in a mansion for 14 years, never spends time with him nor plans anything for his birthdays and constently tries to control absolutely every single aspect of his life, but is also a LITTERAL FREAKING TERRORIST who causes destruction in all of Paris, puts in danger innocent people (including his son and his friends) and is willing to sacrifice countless lives for a selfish purpose -The other character is Chloe Bourgeois Guess which one of these characters had a redemption in the end and which one is seen as the iredeemable monster?
No, Gabriel was not redeemed. Stop with that lie. He took the easy way out. Marinette only said that he died as a hero purely to protect Adrian that’s all there is to it.
Uhm. I dont know how I feel about this episode. Chloe is 100% irredeemable, I can say that, but I also get why chloe stans are saying how random this plot is ESPECIALLY because marinette has no resentment towards kim for what he did, seeing how shes totally cool with him in gamer, helped him in siren, and repeatedly gave him the monkey miraculous. I get the message, I was bullied sorta like this for 4 years myself, and as much as the old episodes kind of hint at this, it still seems extremely unexpected and kinda roughly worked into the episode.(basically saying I wouldve been eased into this ark a lot better if they started dropping hints about it). I dont wish for a chloe redemption ark anymore as that would be too problematic, all I wanna say is that I REALLLY wish they didnt hype me up in the season 2 finale, in ladybug (season 3 ep), and just between those periods in general, I loved seeing chloe grow and I especially loved the dynamic she added to the hero team, guess that plot will just have to be part of those good old days. 😞❤
Have you ever heard of a thing called dissociative amnesia? It’s one of the brain repress as a memory that he considers to traumatic in order to protect itself. It’s very likely this happened to her.
@@AnInkStick I suppose that is an explanation. But then again if she was trying to forget about it why did she jump right back into what happened as soon as she saw kim at the pool...? Not saying anything just question miraculous logic a little bit.
@@AnInkStick u would know that people don't get dissociative amnesia coz of the stuff Chloe or Kim did. 😂😂😂 You get those for stuff much worse. Y'all just throwing words out there without knowing shit about what it is and how and why it happens.
There are other problems with this episode then "just Chloe". I don’t care for Chloe anymore b/c she wasn’t meant to be a major character in miraculous ladybug to begin with. But I don’t understand why people are only focusing on Chloe when there’s other issues with this episode. This episode makes it seem like Marinette’s behavior towards Adrien was justified rather then helping her character grow. If this episode took place before the events in season 4 all of us would’ve sympathized with Marinette’s character more. And by the time season 4 comes into the play, us as the audience would know that she’s going to get the consequences of her actions like shown in the last episode of season 4. But I don’t sympathize with her because this episode shouldn’t be a episode that’s in SEASON 5. Miraculous has a huge problem with timing and the organization of episodes. Which can actually ruin the writing of the show and it’s characters. Please know that this is just my opinion and I’m speaking from a writers POV.
ABOUT TIME SOMEONE SAID THIS! Yeah Chloe sucks now but this episode should’ve been established in earlier seasons so that we can sympathize with marionette’s character. Season 5 is way too late for derision to appear.
@@shhshfvzcmahdk6057 Thank you for understanding my POV. I’ve been seeing a lot of people only focus on Chloe instead of the real problem with this episode and how it can ruin Marinette’s character.
Because if they can write off Chloe, they sure as well can write off Marrienette's creepy behaviour towards Adrien as somehow cute and loving. Coz he's supposed to be the love interest afterall, Marrienette's sidekick. Everyone's characterisation can go to hell as long as Marrienette looks good.
I hate what the writers have done to Chloe. There was major potential back in season two for redemption. Now it's just sickening to watch how much they've ruined her.
You're blaming the writers AGAIN. Chloe has been this way from the START. She has ALWAYS been bad. Any good she has done she has only done to get something in return.
@@TheWiseGroupProductions really? You couldn’t be more wrong. Chloe was a bully in the first season. Not an abuser. She made fun of people, yes, but she didn’t control the entire school and everyone’s lives like an insane person. You can’t honestly look at season 1 Chloe and compare it to season 5 and say it’s the same person. They’re trashing on Chloe’s character to make Marinette look better. That’s called lazy writing.
@@TheWiseGroupProductions and what about those times she gave her Miraculous back to Ladybug willingly in season two? It was because she decided to do the right thing. What about that time she admitted she felt useless and didn’t actually care about Marinette? She wasn’t always bad. She had the potential to turn good and they completely trashed her in the worst way
@@kainightshade5033 the only reason they’re turning Chloe into a crazy person is to make Marinette look better. In a good story, you shouldn’t have to do that. You shouldn’t have to turn one character into a monster to make another look like a hero.
She isnt a terrible person, the writers wanted to make her an irredeemable person simply because they hate her. Sure her actions are terrible but she doesnt even have a good family system to support her. Also is it even selfish to save your family for the greater good? She choose to work with hawk moth to save her family.
I’m reminded by someone that go by Cyrus the great (no hate towards him) that’s made one in defense of Chloe video and has made multiple videos, bashing Marinette and I didn’t really like it because he’s trying to paint Marinette as an awful person Meanwhile, Chloe has done more harm. And the way how people invalidates Marinette trauma by saying that it was just written in the last second etc., rubs me the wrong way
and what about the reason for which CHloe did not reveal Mari's crush? she did not say "it you who must telling him, Dupain Cheng, and see whom he chooses, these things must be said personally". SHe said "you are a person who works , Adri and I are people who shine, therefore you are nothing and deserve attention from nobody". There is nothing to thank in this elitist comment
I honestly disagree, I know from the beginning that Chloe wasn't going to change, it's obvious, because when she was on screen during her "redemptive moments" her behavior was so counterfeiting, personally I believe that some awful people can change as long as you're facing consequences and perceptions, unless your self-deluded, delusional, irredeemable or entitled, you didn't reasonably explain why it doesn't excuse her, I'm ok with Chloe being like this but she came so far and yet so wasted, she could have been a good opportunity for Astruc to enhance the show, Chloe's ruined redeemable occasions are the exact reason the fanbase and show is downgrading, there are multiple characters who haven't changed, take Toy Story 3 for an example of this scenario, my main problems lies with how it was legitimately withdrawled, Chloe being irredeemable is ok, but I don't enjoy the mostly because of her character (she's annoying for the most) however the complicated part is that the writers keep constantly reminding the Chloe fans that she will never change, using the "we thought you'd change" -cleche, they keep inevitably rubbing it in the EI audiences that she can never change, they keep constantly exploiting, to hurt the audiences feeling, people criticizing them for being upset about her redemption is not helping, I'd file this as practical entitlement, I personally think some of you people should actually realize the BS Thomas Astruc and his shitcatastrophe crew are about, Thomas is an absolute manchild, he's practically blocked anyone who's made a point, or people who have suggested, defended or "opinion-ized" things for him have also been blocked, by this point Thomas is Entitled aswell, baffling that people are criticizing the Chloe fans for not understanding the plot and insulting Astruc and his crew, while in the process not trying to empathize/understand with the IE Chloe fans and insulting them aswell, who's behavior is even worse, seriously, you can't call someone delusions and ridiculous while defining those exact words, y'all are literally treating the Chloe fans like Monsters while being an Entitled Monster(viewpoint), Baffling that people are saying Chloe's Traumatic/Child Neglectful past isn't a good justification for her actions, but they're saying Marinette's Traumatic/Bullying past is a clear justification for her actions.
Dude not all ppl need to change this might be spoilers for MHA but I doubt Dabi/Touya is ever going to be redeemded, hell he's burning his entire body atm in the manga so yeah no redemption there, why do ppl always think every bad character in a show needs a redemption 😂 lije Queen Chrisaliys never got a redemption but I don't see MLP crying over that 😂 Istg ppl get so obsessed with pixels on a screen
@@margeryojije7862Thank You' for that BEAUTIFUL "essafied" speech you deserve a Nobel Peace Prize👏 First what i said was what I thought or believed , i never claimed anything closed to Chloe’s character being based off of “REDEMPTION” i said that Chloe was wasted, and I gave out my opinion, I never WANTED to change her, if you read more, you’d know i said Chloe being irredeemable is what her creator wanted for her - i implied that she’s supposed to be this way, or it was intentional, I did give subjective statements about Thomas, saying he was immature and biased because that’s how I’m seeing him *”In my eyes”* I have no emotional investment in Chloe, I was speaking objective but mainly subjective, I felt like she was a wasted opportunity for Thomas. When have I ever said that people should feel a certain type of way for bullies/Chloe? I never said people should feel a type of way for her because I want too, and your sarcasm really confuses me, you straight up brought up that topic. I Never claimed I was disappointed about miracle queen, if you paid attention, you’d know I said “Chloe is clearly irredeemable, never have I mentioned that I was disappointed, I only described the type of emotions I was feeling, and I even said *“I’m guessing that’s the writer’s intention”* People keep saying some people don’t want to change but, I only said I *”believed/religious”* that people can change, anyone as long as your punishment is by god or fate itself, that’s who I am, and hold on but you said “I want people to change but criticizing people for believing people can change” is kinda hypocritical or ironic in 2 passions Your practically presuming what I think, I don’t care if Chloe changes I just think Thomas could have done more When I looked back, I only read this message because I realized I needed to change my statements and word choice *”I still think this is a bad lesson to teach to kids”* I actually take that back, because I am learning new choices and new things” let me “remaster or redo that statement, I actually want to take that out, because this doesn’t need to be a a good lesson, *”Ik some people don’t want to change, but I still have belief that others can, this can be a reasonable lesson to teach to kids, I don’t think it’s a good lesson but I do think it’s a reasonable lesson to explain, because some people don’t change infact, this can help kids learn more about the world, and that there’s people like Chloe’s who don’t want to change or be different, i don’t believe this is a good lesson, but a helpful lesson, rational lesson and mature lessons.”* that’s my new statement because I’m learning new things and i will keep on getting more knowledge You are saying I am one of “y’all” because I’m not a Chloe fan I’d prefer myself a semi-Chloe supporter You need A DOSE THAT Vitamin R> REALITY because I’d think that Mr Or Ms high IQ’d Albert Einstein lookin ah- would know that this is reality, in reality people are Objective Or Subjective, i pretty sure the rationale as to why some people are bothered about Chloe, Is because how Chloe’s TERRIBLE behavior was portrayed, because it felt like the writers intentionally wanted to hurt the audience who had emotional Investments with Chloe so they don’t feel betrayed by Chloe but insulted by Astruc and his shitcotascophe crew” that’s probably why, and all you’ve really done is make yourself look toxic and showed little amount of immaturity with that usage of slurs, your practically sh*t talking people because they believe or feel a certain type of way about the show, as if you want them to change themselves No, I never was going to say that “Marrinette and all the others characters should be punished too” i literally had 0 intention to type that, you just brought that up to either debunk a nonexistent prediction or to make your reply bigger, but I might be wrong, so if I’m wrong apologize for that misconception I don’t care about your statement or opinion’s because they do not truly matter to me, your statement or opinion have obsolescence in my view I never claimed that I wouldn’t watch it, infact MLB is a very entertaining show, but their can be something’s that may bother me.
@@ApplezJuicez If anything, it's a bad influence to convince children that anyone can be redeemed. Brad Bird certainly thought so when making The Incredibles.
It really makes my blood boil when people say chloes mom is to blame Yes Audrey neglecting her may have been a reason she’s turned out like that but, Chloe is Chloe She’s her own person her own character with her own decisions only SHE is to blame for what she has done. Chloes mom has supported her bad behavior and will literally abandon you if you’re not cruel and mean so I do understand why she turned out like that BUT that doesn’t justify what she has done!! Period.
Same for Felix I hate it when people blame his dad for what happened ! Sure, he had an awful childhood but he still chose to make bad things ! For exemple : Adrien also had an abusive father but did he turned into a heartless sociopath ? No ! In my opinion none of them (Chloe and Felix) deserve redemption 😤😤😤
So Chloe's redemption arc is impossible, but Andre who broke the law (Being mayor) and gave bribes is cool? Same with Gabriel, their arcs show that Thomas's standards are broken and it makes it even more clear that what they did with Chloe is just not a funny joke
Let me remind you that Chloe was taking care of Andre, he is to blame for not even signing Chloe to a therapist (Something he should have done when Chloe's signals started)
And then the narrative brazenly lied that Andre is the victim of his wife and daughter, even though those who watched the series from the first season saw Andre do something not because of his daughter, but of his own free will They wanted to do Alador Blight, they did something that rather offends victims of violence, and it's weak
As a former scapegoat, I have the impression that Thomas is laughing in my face and I don't buy this narrative with her trauma, seriously, such "The owl house" showed trauma so well that miracolous seriously looks like something that laughs at you
The way I see it, Thomas Asscheek hated that people were still holding out hope for Chloe's possible redemption and made it his mission to make her as irredeemable as possible just out of spite. He doesn't have a creative bone in his body and only kept this terrible show running because of the sappy drama and the fact that the plot makes almost no progress across 4 seasons. Truly an awful show, but it's kind of like a train wreck that you just can't look away from because you have to see just how much worse it can keep getting.
I'm glad Adrien finally ended his friendship with Chloe and I bet that once everyone finds out they will hate her, maybe even have her banned from politics and from her running mayor
Did Adrien end it of his own free will, or did he do it because Marinette pretty much programmed him into doing what she tells him to do every bit as much as Gabriel does. As that is classic abusive behaviour to isolate someone from other woman and from his friends. Can Marinette even open her mouth about Chloe now without a stream of abuse flowing out ? Speculation : What if Chloe is dyslexic and no one knows, and everything she said wasn't about privilege like Marinette claims but about her being unable to do it without admitting that to herself and others. Chloe doesn't want to change, for whatever reason, but Marinette's reasons are just that Marinette's reasons, not Chloes. I don't think she even believes much of what she says. Otherwise why show her in other lights at all. Why show her breaking down on a roof in tears, why show her having a tickle fight with Sabrina. Why show he sobbing her heart out in the back of the Limo. There is more to Chloe than what she says and does and that is why she has fans = she's an interesting puzzle to some.
@@90lancaster That statement that it is because she may be dyslexic is insulting. Dyslexia is when you mistake letters or numbers for something else. It may make it hard to speak to other people but it doesn't make you do what Chole has done. Look up things before you say them.
In a leaked episode, she forcefully took her father's place as mayor after he resigned from his position. She made a deal with Monarch to get herself akumatized into Queen Mayor so that he can give her the powers of the miraculouses to abuse her authority. In the end, Chloe got deakumatized after her defeat and she is stripped from her position as mayor and her father finally disciplines her. Audrey Bourgeois takes Chloe away to New York on a private jet for good (and Andre has already divorced her in a previous leaked episode by this point and putting Zoe under his custody only before renouncing his position as mayor so it's not like Audrey has any reason to return back to Paris.) In the leaked season 5 finale, Ms. Bustier becomes the new mayor. Yea, there is ZERO chance that Chloe will ever become the mayor of Paris again.
I have a similar experience as marinette in G6 when I liked a boy and this is totally relatable, the bully locked me in a belcony (using a trolley school bag from another person) near the classroom for my next class, WITH MY CRUSH. She made such a large racket that the whole class was attracted to the noise. I've reported her to the deans but it didn't work, and for the next few years she is annoying me until she was transferd to another school. Chloe reminded me of her and yes, I agree that chloe isn't redemptable
I honestly thought in season 3 that chloe MAY become a good person but BOY WAS I WRONG! she dosent deserve to be forgiven. I am glad Adrien finally saw through her and realised what a big brat she is
I never thought she would go that far. Now we know why Marinette stammers a lot near Adrien was because of her first heartbreak from Kim and the trauma she had to go through that Chloe caused. Adrien didn’t know but now he knows and ended his friendship with Chloe. He chose Marinette over Chloe’s friendship. I knew Chloe would end up all alone one day because her attitude is beyond selfish like her mom. Seeing people suffer is her entertainment but to us it’s not. She really can’t redeem herself. She thinks she has power over everything but we don’t need power to fight, it’s support and determination that gives us strength to take back everything from abusers. In the end, she lost everything. She’s the one who is utterly ridiculous because she has no sense or morality, maturity, or awareness. She knew Lila was a liar but chose to team up with her, at the cost of Sabrina ending her friendship with her. Chloe lost everything and there’s no repair because the damage is already done. She said it herself, she doesn’t care about forgiveness but eventually she will o e day and no will forgive her. Adrien gave her multiple chances but she blew it off. There’s no going back. Every villain she teams up with like Monarch and Lila, they use her as her pawn, not to help her get what she wants.
From the moment that I started watching I could relate to Marinette. In my opinion they really captured the way that trauma can come out sometimes. I really could feel marinettes anxiety and panic, although I've never been bullied.
Derision hit me so hard. I have severe anxiety caused by a traumatic event, not unlike Marinette. Except I go into psychogenic seizures when I’m reminded or triggered. It’s caused me to avoid all sorts of things, just like Marinette. Seeing Adrien stand up for her like that felt like he was standing up for me too. Stop victim blaming. There are so many elements that make a person who they are, parentage is just one of them. Genetics, personal desires, past experiences. At the end of the day, Chloe has made her decisions. She has been given so many chances to change, but she never took any of them genuinely. There comes a point where a person has to take accountability for their own actions. I don’t blame my parents or my traumatic experiences for everything I do wrong.
First off, I am so sorry you went through that. No one deserves to undergo that kind of trauma. I adore the way you explained this and I'm glad the episode actually resonated with you as someone who has experienced something similar to Marinette. A lot of Chloe stans seems to lack empathy, so I hope highlighting this comment will help them understand the bigger picture.
@@MiraculouslyLazy Chloe stans seems to lack empathy? Because they like a FICTIONAL CHARACTER? You call them psychopath because they love a FICTIONAL CHARACTER? Also wtf is the bigger picture? Is it Chloe being an abuser? Is it Chloe's backstory doesn't justify her actions? Is it peoples like Chloe exist? No sh*t Sherlock.
I have no idea who’s worse. Marinette for stalking, getting extremely jealous of other girls for talking to “her” Adrien, teamed up with Chloe to humiliate with Kagami for being with Adrien, etc or Chloe, who bullied others for no valid reason, teamed up with Hawkmoth in the ending of season 3, etc.
The double standards of the fandom : Me : Chloe bullied her classmates because she didn’t receive enough love from her mom and betrayed ladybug because she was manipulated by Hawk moth and felt abandoned by her The fandom : Idc that’s not an excuse she’s still a horrible person ! Me : Felix tried to SA ladybug and betrayed her for absolutely no reason by giving all the miraculouses to Gabriel which caused many damages in season 5 The fandom : He is like that because of his father ! Me : What ???? 🤨
"Bullying" is too simple a term to use for such matters. When people think of "bullying" they might think of harassment, name-calling, and the occasional hitting. It was important to hammer home the word "abuse" so the seriousness of Chloe's actions can be understood and people can stop trying to push it under the rug.
@@kainightshade5033 OK in that case Marinette is guilty of "Emotional Abuse" & "Physical Abuse" herself. & Like Chloe has also tried to kill people for little or no reason. (Like throwing a Car at civilians as she was "angry") Which seems somewhat outside the remit of the akuma effect on her to me. She was also only mildly annoyed that Kaalki murdered hundreds of people on her say so.
@@90lancaster Mkay, so Ladybug has never thrown a car or other projectile at civilians. If you saw that, give me the name of the episode. Also, give me the names of episodes where Marinette in her civilian form or superhero form has emotionally or physically abused anyone. P.S Defending herself from an attack or calling Lila out on her shit doesn't count.
U do know this is the writers trynna write Chloe up. No where in the past was Chloe's relationship with Marrienette ever portrayed or alluded to have been this abusive. It's an utter retcon of past events established. Marrienette also never reacted like someone who got bullied like this. Infact how does Chloe bullying ever make Marrienette stalk and be creepy and obsessive towards Adrien? I would get if she stalked Chloe secretly just to get back at her or to steer clear of her pranks, but that isn't what happened at all. And nowhere in the past has Marrienette ever been reserved towards Adrien coz of the prank Kim and Chloe supposedly pulled on her. Infact she fell for him after he gave her his umbrella lookin all cool. Why did she never question his motives back then? It's mindblowing how people are falling for this stupid logic. Same leap of logic when they introduced Zoe out of nowhere to try to make fans-of-good-writing-and-sense choose that mary-sue over Chloe. It's disgusting how they will ruin their own story to make this happen.
It is hard to deny the fact that chloe had several moments that saw her trying to change for the better(especially in season 2) but the moment the season 3 finale aired all of chloe character development was thrown out the window making those redeemable moments of chloe pointless that is why people support chloe instead of hating her how she was written starts off as a bully over time displays some good qualities and then prooceed to go back to being a bully but 10x times worst.
Me personally Mari’s backstory should have came up in the earlier seasons. Now that we know that Mari’s stalking isn’t just a joke, it should have been a character Arc for her so she can actually have develop and make her have a healthy relationship with Adrian and not just an obsessive one. It been like 5 seasons and I don’t really care if she develops anymore because my patience is gone. And for Chloe I think she is the best character ( seasons 1&2 ) because at the time she was interesting.She had a backstory that explains her behaviors.Even if Chloe was never meant to be redeem I still wish she was more relevant to the plot. Because her whole Arc seemed like a big waste of time to me.
Im pretty sure the stalking thing was normally just a joke but after seeing fans being disgusted they made a while arc to excuse her actions. Pretty bad move in my opinion.
I likes it more when Chloe was a more complex character, she was still a bully, but she had some moments when she actually did surprisingly nice things, not everyone has to be pure good or evil, but now they just trying to make as horrible as they can, the show just got boring in general, it’s like characters never change there I agree that Chloe doesn’t deserve to be a hero, but what they’re doing with her character now is ridiculous (utterly ridiculous) Plus, I absolutely hate how characters like Felix, who used lies and manipulation to ruin his cousin’s life, get a redemption arc, but Chloe doesn’t deserve one People can change, this episode is literally a flashback over a year ago
At least Chloe's English VA is nice... I feel for Chloe stans/fans who wanted Chloe to be redeemed and do good. If only the other characters could put the effort to try and help Chloe steer in the right direction, learn the error of her ways. Chloe couldn't be all that bad despite how the writers make her as... Sadly, Chloe is just created to be hated (by Thomas and/or others on the show). It'd been best if Thomas never grant Chloe a Miraculous in the first place if she wasn't gonna be redeemed... Queen Bee was cool and Chloe once resisted an Akuma/Hawkmoth at one point but was it genuine or was it for her selfish reasons? It a shame the people (her classmates, especially Adrien) she once knew have decided to abandon her. Her character is now sadly a mess and I guess it's best if Chloe disappears... unless she somehow finds enlightenment and learn from her mistakes and try to be a better person. I won't give up on Chloe no matter how the writers would/will portray her as in future episodes/season(s). I hope Chloe gets genuine redemption down the road... She NEEDS help... She NEEDS SOMEONE to help her see the light, see the error of her ways... Is Chloe perfect? NO. Neither are the other characters... If Marinette or Adrien or anyone care enough to give Chloe another shot and help her, that'd be great. Otherwise, it's best for the characters to move on without Chloe. Then someone else may take her place and be worse than her... You can't have the protagonist without the antagonist... To all the fans of Chloe, I HOPE she gets redeemed for your sake, but it's up to Thomas and the writers on that... We'll see how he portray Chloe in future episodes... Have a Miraculous day, everyone and feel free to add your two cents/opinion(s).
I swear half of the miraculous fandom loves Chloe and HATES mari because she doesn’t get consequences for her stalking actions but chloe literally never gets any consequences either so it’s so stupid Sorry for bad grammar lol I’m trying to listen to the video while writing 💀
I don't know, but maybe if Chloe is well "Chloe" that makes some sense, where as with Marinette you have this Klutz, emotionally blind girl who lives in a cloud of pink bubbles, but even Rose got that one line that "explained her perfectly" why she's human bubblegum incarnate. She is intentionally bolstering the positive so she doesn't sink under the weight of the negative, she's actually a bit deeper than just a fluffy ditz, even the Kwaicore genre of her band make a crazy kinda sense as it uses positive lyrics and bright colours and costumes with the heavy rock subtext and screamed lyrics to represent the undercurrent of darkness and pain which is the looming menace of her own likely death at a young age Kitty Section become a deeper thing by that alone. With Marinette what we get is Marinette is a ditz and Ladybug is super serious (mostly) and yet Ladybug has this great tactical mind (supposedly) and yet at the same time she's clearly winging it. It doesn't really make a lot of sense, it's like she's being performative and "playing the role of ladybug" when she's still Marinette quietly freaking out on the inside. But Thomas doesn't show her like that often, instead he treats her like Ladybug is super competent, yet if she is, why is Marinette such a klutz ? There is also the other issues the show avoids for example. When Chloe was Class President when she could be bothered she could get what the class wanted as she had the power to do so, so it was in their best interest to keep her sweet, and Chloe got the ego boost of being "Girl in Charge" but it looks like she actually did the job, well at least got Sabrina to do it anyway. Marinette And Alya do exactly ZIP until it benefits them, sure one can say Chloe is the same, but at least she seemed to do "something" and had the potential to get things done. She's not even got Damocle's trust enough to not have him expel her TWICE. But then the whole show has to twist reality into new shapes to allow the characters to act in the ways convenient to the plot. You can't actually do the things Damocles or Bustier does "legally" Heck both of them have done things on the show you get jail time for, which is kinda nutty to think "OK which people should be in Jail now" it's quite a lot. But it's like why didn't Fu immediately take Adrien's Miraculous away after Syren as he should have. Or why didn't Cat Noir elbow his way into the process of picking holders once he knew who fu was. He didn't he just let Ladybug dictate to him, and so eventually broke their partnership, and also showed he's not really responsible. Which doesn't work when you also have Marinette on the show saying that she expects Cat Noir to save her when she gets akumatised (and boy did that happen / nearly happen a silly number of times) which is as much of a re-write as Kwamibuster was and as much as Chloe being that bad is. As previously the idea was that Ladybug should NEVER get akumatised or it's the end of the world like situation, and instead Marinette tells Luka she's pretty much expecting it to happen. Oh well Luka is out of the country now so he can be on Ghostforce for his Cameo now I guess.
I'm sorry but no matter how many times I watch this episode, I still only see it as a cheap (yet sadly effective) attempt of justifying Marinette's obsessive and exaggerated behaviors up to that moment in the show. You know, basically the thing that we as an audience could criticize out of her. This episode was Thomas and co. screaming to the audience "DONT YOU DARE TALK BADLY ABOUT MARINETTE AGAIN". Which imo, sucks. Honestly this show always had a problem when it comes to how to balance character flaws. But this episode basically painted Marinette as a flawless victim, and thats the lowest way to justify a character, specially after 4 SEASONS. Don't even make me talk about how this chapter doesn't make any sense chronologically wise. It only paints everyone that knew Marinette AND Chloe in the past even WORSE. Chloe is a lost cause, not as a character, but in writing. Thomas and Co. Truly just gave up on her and that's it. No turning back. The fact that people really just eat up this excuse of making Chloe go from just a cartoonish bully that most other characters didn't even take seriously to this horrible monster that did so many wrong things in the past yet no one in the show seems to even remember that, just shows the lack of actual analysis that this fandom has. But I will always criticize this episode for what it is: cheap brownie points for Marinette and make her immune to any kind of criticism in her private life. Cus suddenly she is now a bullied, victim of abuse so therefore if you criticize her now you are diminishing a character that represents a survivor of bullying. This episode just proved something: Thomas Astruc will go to any length to make Marinette be the golden, tragic child yet forever in the right, at the expense of any secondary character.
I don't think liking Chloe is wrong, after all villains are important when it comes to stories as they move the plot forward and create interesting situations. Liking a character =/= approving their actions/personality. That being said, I don't really like Chloe myself, imo she's just annoying and I don't enjoy episodes that are centered on her
and honestly this is why i like fanfiction more than the show sometimes - th*mas took Chloe way too far now. She had been on such a good arc that it just crashed and burned. i feel like each episode makes me hate someone who was my favorite character in the beginning
I'm surprised that the fandom still supports Chole and blames it on her mommy issues and the screenwriters for her actions. Once upon a time, I thought she would redeem herself when she 'got' the Bee miraculous, but that was back in season two. After season three I lost hope in her redemption. I am actually surprised at how long she withstood this abuse, sorry but there is nothing else to call it, and this episode only confirmed how bad Chole was.
@@90lancaster Marinette is honest in who she is. Chole is not. She is only trying to be good for her idol, not herself. Marinette is. Chole bullied Marinette for YEARS, and as someone who was bullied, I can relate to Marinette. Chole is the definition of dishonest.
@@ShadowRider711 No She's Tactless, she can be dishonest when she's doing her crocodile tears act before she resorts to do as I say or "I'll call Daddy", but I don't think she's that dishonest really, she doesn't really try to hide what she does, she admitted she pulled the Fire alarm for example. Chloe is a terrible person but she is consistent in the way she is I feel, or she was before Thomas decided to up the ante. As for her motive, It isn't to impress Ladybug 'as such' it's more to do with Chloe being desperate for Validation ideally from her Mother, but Ladybug will do as another female authority figure to her. That can also be seen in how one of the few people who can get the best out of her was Miss Bustier. Even if she did go about it in the wrong way. Strangely Chloe acted like she wanted to be chastised for messing with Marinette's gift... but yeah remember that scene there is a lot more going on in that episode Zombizou than I think has even yet now been resolved.
@@90lancaster bruh get a grip because you know damn well if you were treated the same way Marinette was by chloe you wouldn't be making excuses for her sorry ass 💀💀💀
Any single plus point left for Chloe disappeared after this episode. She's so much disgusting. She has that abusive genetics of her equally abusive mother. The way she treats Sabrina. The way she treats her Father. She's just the worst!!! Lila is a master manipulator who uses others for her advantage like Scar, while Chloe is narcissistic like Gaston. And both are villains. And now they're working together they're even horrible. The only thing is while everybody in Marinette's class hates Chloe they r blinded by Lila. Even Zoe has given this half sister of her's a piece of her own mind. Bullies like Chloe seek sympathy justifying their actions. That's the difference between Marinette and Chloe. Marinette doesn't justify her flaws. Also remember even after she became Queen Bee her behaviour towards others didn't change. Her craving for popularity as a heroine ultimately became the obvious. She couldn't control her urge to be in control. While Tikki had a confidence boost in Marinette and Plagg gave Adrien courage to speak his mind and break free, none of that influence seem to affect Chloe's behaviour. And she gets excused no matter how horrible her actions r as she's the Mayors daughter. She keeps on hurting others with no remorse. The only redemption she might hv is if her father looses the elections and nobody gives a tuppence about her.
I hate how people compare Marinette with Chloé by saying "Marinette is a pick me, she's annoying, she's a stalker, she was awful with Chloé when she was ladybug" this makes my blood boil, and anyway Marinette is not a stalker in my opinion, she's more an obsessive person. If Marinette ever ends in court of law they'll probably recommend her therapy and her parents would get a fine and have to research gabriel if he decides to sue them Anyway besides the extremely obsessive things she has done(which I don't excuse) she's really an amazing person, she always helps others, and when she does something bad she actually realizes it and always apologizes (like with Kagami) I'll never stop defending her
@@Mebro-m6d it changes a lot A stalker does way worse than what Marinette had done and even though she did some illegal things like stealing and entering in Adrien's house without him knowing it (which I DON'T justify because they were absolutely wrong) her intensions weren't malicious and the thing is up to Adrien, from what I understood Marinette revealed him how obsessive she can be and he seems to not be bothered by this but if he's bothered by what Marinette did he can sue her but it's not like they would put her in prison, since she's a minor her parents would have to research Adrien (or his father because he's a minor too) with money and nothing more than that and probably the court of law would tell her parents that she needs and should get therapy A stalker is always an obsessive person but an obsessive person is not always a stalker
@@pinkysunset9240 I know that stalking and obbsesion is different. I mean, realizing that Marinette is not stalker, will not make peoples change their mind. Peoples who don't like Marinette will not going to start love Marinette. Peoples hate character because of what they done, not the name of the thing they done.
@@Mebro-m6d I don't want to force anyone into like Marinette and I'm not saying everyone must love her people can think whatever they want, I just don't like when people keeps saying she's a stalker because she's not
I’m just disappointed they didn’t go through with her redemption arc because she could have been so much more! It was all right there and it could have brought a more interesting dynamic with Zoe! In the episode despair bear I could see glimpses of possible redemption and it excites me not because I think she has to have redemption but because it could have brought a different take on things, as I am honestly getting tired of the stereotypical bully! I am not a Chloe stan, but season 3 did disappoint because it did kind of feel like they just chucked whatever small fragments of interesting character growth out the window! Honestly, I would be fine with her staying as an antagonist, just make her actually have a more complicated motive besides being the stereotypical bully. Evil or not you don’t want to question why they are even there any more! I am not trying to excuse her horrible twisted actions, I am just disappointed in her. Anyways, great video as always!❤️🤩
This is also a fair take! Personally, I still believe she was trying to please Adrien in Despair Bear, but I totally get what you mean with it seeming like there was a glimmer of good inside of her. Thank you for watching Kaleigh!!!
@@margeryojije7862 tbh tho most chloe stans ( like me ) only fanfiction the chloe we like because she cannot be saved with how terrible she was made. and even tho chloe now is a bad person mental abuse is a totally valid excuse for behavior. expecially when both her parents are bad people.(in season 1 and 2 tho) other seasons arent valid behavior because at that point she was more toxic than being saved. but u are so right they changed her to be a killer which uspet fans smh.
I was more bothered by the teachers behaviour, knowing the problems they had with bullying in France around the time the show debuted their attitude towards Bullying remains rather bizarre, and well The teachers would be committing serious criminal offenses several times on the show, which I know drives some teachers watching it completely up the wall. KInda like actually police officers trying to watch a cop show.
Honestly I wish Chloe wasn’t hated by Thomas like it doesn’t make sense that she had the best redemption arc she’s a bad person I can say that but the writers literally made Chloe a 15 year old girl being un redemptional and be a terrible person in her redemption arc she was trying I’m not saying that Chloe shouldn’t be hated it’s just that the writing doesn’t make sense also hating on marrinete isn’t unreasonable I mean I get she has trauma BUT SHES A LITERAL STALKER she broke laws I know Chloe has done bad things and Marrinete did too but keep in mind people can change Also keep in mind because of Marrinetes obsession with Adrien she lost the Miraculous THE MOST POWERFUL ONE also I know that Chloe made sides with hawk moth but keep in mind she’s a child she can be easily inspired by something that gives her what she wants So basically what I’m saying is that nobody can be irredeemable neither Marrinete nor Chloe I just don’t get why everybody justifies Marrinetes actions but not Chloe also I know Chloe did bad things but I won’t accept anything bad about Chloe after season 3 because after that all of Chloes bad actions were so obvious that it was hate from Thomas
So true. I just lost it when I saw this video's thumbnail.It's true that Chloe got too far but it's obvious that after season 3,all Chloe's actions are just forced by this shitty asstruck
@@assiaelkhayate-sl8hu fr even Thomas asstruck said that GABRIEL IS REDEEMABLE a 30+ old that would sacrifice his son to save his wife and he did it 2 TIMES WITHOUT REMORSE Spoiler And marrinete sat down with Gabriel saying that it’s ok and you can just stop and she forgave him tho he took her miraculous either way. BUT HES STILL REDEEMABLE
finally someone who got a brain fam i finished the show and wanted to see vids on this show and just constantly see this shmucked bombaclat called 'cyrus the great' and one of his shit videos "in defense of chole bourgeios" where this guy is just completely yappin bullshit with absoulute terrible points that make no sense. and i ain't understand this chole glaze in this fandom like the ridiculous utterly ridiculous shit is funny but like she ain't allat like ppl are buggin. how do ppl think marientte a worse person than chole is jus beyond me i can't. and unrealated sidenote it seems like most of these fans don't even enjoy the show like fam it was never intended to be some story masterpiece to begin wit it was always a goofy fun show to laugh wit like i can't stand these ppl fam
This might be a bit controversial, but the problem isn't that Chloe's character is beyond redemption. It's that the producer gave away the biggest spoiler on her character development. By declaring her irredeemable, we had nothing to look forward to when it came to Chloe's actions. Because of this episode, we finally understood Marinette's behaviour towards her love interests, but are we honestly surprised by Chloe's past actions? I lost my moment of 'Wow, she's beyond saving!' Just 'cause I read a tweet a few years ago.. (I still love his work.. and I'm also staying away from personal Twitter accounts of writers/producers.)
Everyone asking why Gabriel is redeemable and Chloe the real question is why Plagg is ok and Chloe isn’t I know he is way more likesble and overall a nice guy and his sass if cool but in the episode style queen it’s stated he killed the dinisiars and sunk Atlantis in the episode miracle queen he previously called the dinosaurs wusses and in deflagration it’s stated he did it on purpose because they made fun of him so bullying Simone all her life making people miserable and selling out your city to an evil terrorist for power is worse than destroying an entire planet or more appropriate making it unlivable as well as an island of humans and feeling no remorse for it calling them wusses and casually brushing it off explain.that to me
honestly it feels like they portrayed her even worse to try to stamp out any of the redeemable aspects or at least complex in the past even though theway mari reacted to chloe in origin was bad but never hinted at it being THIS bad. so part of me is frusterated that they made chloe even worse...mostly because it kindof negates alot of the lessons or aspects in the earlier seasons..... but another part knows this is what we have now and people trying to defend her after this episode need to accept this IS now a canon part of her. though the fuck didthey do to kim? kim ws getting better and him refering to chloe like that infront of his girlfriend when he has been over chloe since season 1 felt WEIRD. though i'm even more confused because it feels like some stuff contradicted this in previous episodes. but its just so bad how can people defend thischloe after this
Now, I still like Chloe, but before some people start attacking me because of it- I only want to know more about her character arc, instead of her getting attacked in every single episode. Season 2 still holds onto me, so this episode still doesn’t make me dislike her. Now don’t get me wrong, I sympathize with Marinette all the way, but there were some points that the episode made that confused me or was a downright hurtful message. Like that whole scene with Mylene and Rose irritated me because just because you were raised to a mother who neglected her, doesn’t mean they should move on from it the same way. And then there’s the finger pointing on Chloe because of Marinette’s stalker antics-
@@margeryojije7862 First of all, I know that she is not all about redemption, just about bringing akumas. But you seem to forget that Jeremy Zag is the one who wrote season 2 and made Chloe sympathetic, of course Thomas didn’t like that because he has an unhealthy obsession with her and smeared it all out in season 3, just to rub it in to Chloe likers and Chloe Defenders that she’ll never change. It’s true, she did have everything she wanted by her poor excuse of a father. But she wanted to have her mother’s love, something that she can’t buy with money. If you are so pressed up about how I feel about certain characters, then move on.
@@Till_is_alive_trust being sympathetic is not incompatible with being an ass. Chloe's behavior from season 2 to 4 is consistent, she never understood how her arrogance and dishonesty were wrong, even less they were the way to fix Audrey's behavior
@@margeryojije7862 Well, this writing is horrible, I don't feel betrayed by Chloe, I feel disappointed in the show itself, this is not how you write a betrayal arc, now it feels like the show raised out expectations and then burned them to the ground, which it does a lot. You can't just make people sympathetic to someone and then expect them to hate them, this is not how it works. Sympathy can't be ruined so easily, even with some lame excuse about some Marinette's trauma from the past. Why didn't anyone bring that up before? Probably because it was another poorly written excuse to make us hate Chloe even more (Zoe is one of those lame excuses too, because she literally appeared out of nowhere)
On further reflection on this I really think you can push Kim, Marinette and Chloe to the side, ignore Socqueline and Sabrina and shake your head at plot inconsistencies and such. You will be left with one thing which is how "in a bubble" Paris is now, in Season One it felt more like Paris, now Paris feels more like a city state with the office of the president & other politicians not even existing. The Mayor doesn't even really have a P.A.... (he really should). Looking at What Nadia said in Action she seems to imply that there is so much of a stranglehold on control that no one can say anything which is why the Mayor seemed to be able to get away with anything, and why Chloe wasn't prosecuted for endangering a train etc.. I guess allowing Chloe to be a terror to the teachers (now) is one of those things the show just does. But as I often point out it is going to look really strange to someone who discovers the show in Season 4 or 5 and then starts from the beginning they will see Chloe doing nothing much to anyone. I can see why people accuse all of this to it being just Thomas poisoning the well, and making it harder for someone else to use Chloe effectively, which is really disrespectful to the new writers after he's being made step back. He's basically Jake Skywalkered Chloe and well, at least he didn't have her plane crash. Ironically as much as some people see Chloe only as a surface issue... there is still the undertone that she's a girl who's had everything taken from her (somewhat unfairly) & that actually does leave somewhere to go with her. For example Luka still has not met her properly. That said I do think they took the best written character in the show and turned her into the worst written one just to be petty to the people who like her, and as a secondary reason perhaps Marinette's behaviour got so bad they had to raise Chloe's Level of villainy to keep her above Marinette. But No Thomas I don't forget Marinette fed her to her Mother and encouraged Chloe to be bad to bond with her (reprehensible mother) Chloe had a good(ish) role model in Ladybug and because she selfishly didn't want to deal with her she shoved her onto Audrey not caring that the cost of that to Chloe is her personal happiness, all her relationships and maybe even her soul. That is as bad as telling someone to date someone who you know was violent to their previous partner. So yeah by forcing Chloe onto Audrey it is Marinette that looks bad, as people need to remember Chloe is an obnoxious narcissistic Brat with Mommy and Daddy issues in Season One, she's someone who is trying her darnedest to be better and they just take it away from her. That makes the show look cruel. The show isn't very nice to Kagami either but at least it doesn't explode all her personal relationships completely when it does. Alya at least "cares enough" about Kagami to tell Marinette off when she's being cruel to her, but we have no idea what Alya things about what Marinette did to Chloe, she may never have told her, and Alya made a snap judgement about her "team mate" and never gave her a chance and that to be honest low key disgusts me. it is why this show sometimes give the impression it's racist against the blondes. Though what the heck I am supposed to make of their endless forgiveness for 'Mr. Genocide' & Matricide Felix. Yeah this show is happy to demonize a teenage bratty girl with like 1 friend who gets treated like crap by most people now, but who actually was kinda sweet on instagram, you could see she was "trying" to unlearn her bad behaviour. No one cared to help her with that though. It is the cynicism of the production and the way they did it,, I don't mind Chloe falling due to circumstances, neglect and missunderstandings I do however object to "Season Two" Chloe being needlessly Character assassinated as Thomas has no idea how to write a sympathetic antagonist, and wants to make excuses for Marinette's attrocious behaviour in a very lazy way I.e. by saying "Look Chloe's still worse". She beats up her partner and dehumanises and emasculates him. I've read a lot of Fan fiction and anyone writing based on Season 1 & 2 would have Marinette go ballistic if someone did anything like that to Cat Noir, but the show instead dehumanised and ruined Adrien too just to make Marinette look good, and then their only excuse is the rather pathetic one of That was Cat Noir not Adrien. So yeah Miraculous abusing the abused kids then repeatedly saying they are not abused they are privileged is just well more abuse. Fine if you want to give your characters challenges, But I would use a Star Trek analogy about what Data discovered about William Riker's innate personality type. That is what the show forgets, and changes out of short term convenience. If you need a character to be a jerk, then why not use Nathaniel as he's already acknowledged to be a bit of a jerk. This show, I swear will only make sense when it's eventually rebooted and written without Thomas having any involvement.
@@SymbolOfPeace8 No I am treating Ladybug as 'in loco parentis' & chiding Adrien for abandoning his "difficult" Childhood friend in favour of the new shiny things (the rest of the class). Marinette wasn't a victim of more than mild irritation from Chloe until Thomas had a childish tantrum over it and totally re-wrote her character in Season 4 & 5. Chloe is a brat, we barely knew why before but that was all she was, "a brat" now she's a homicidal lunatic. Ladybug had the opportunity to deal with that to make her life and Chloe's better and to teach children a lesson about communication. Instead they had Marinette sulk do nothing, and then suffer the consequences. & hope we didn't notice that she caused the loose of her mentor and the decent of Queen Bee based on her jealousy over Kagami. That the show had the blatant cheek to call her the "Best Miraculous Holder" every single time after she messes up to a huge degree make the show look like it is becoming a self-parody. Chloe being a massive heel, is less of an issue on the show than Marinette's own personal failings are they are a bigger detriment to herself than anything Chloe did to her (pre-retcon). Oh and we as of course invited to pretend to not notice that Sabine was aware of the bullying and did NOTHING about it so they also threw Marinette's parents under the bus wheels too.
All because she exposed her identity of being queen bee in front of everyone, which made it easier for Gabriel to influence her into becoming far worse than she was at the beginning.
@ANIMATIONLOVERBT she was doing just fine, until Gabriel filled her head with lies about Ladybug not trusting her to keep the bee miraculous, making her into a full time willing victim.
@@wc4606 ah she was filled by lies, and felt no remorse for this betrayal. She was culprit in the time she accepted and called all the heroes to give the ass their powers and to be above everyone. She only wanted power and gave it for granted
@@ANIMATIONLOVERBT still, if chloe kept her identity a secret, Gabriel wouldn't have been able to manipulate and influence her this easily. Now she wants Monarch to win, just to spite Ladybug.
To me Chloe wasn't born evil as evident of her past with Adrian she is a result of bad parenting so I really can't hate her as much as I hate her parents. She got her spoilt side from her father, a man that couldn't even spend time with his own daughter and was too afraid to reprimand and instead rather get and buy her whatever she wanted. She got her bratty side from her mother. Her mother is just a cruel heartless woman who can't even remember the names of her kids and genuinely does not give a dam about them and since she's the person Chloe looks up to the most well.... I can understand why she became the little gremlin herself. And altho her and Zoe grew up with the same mother, they were raised differently so I can't really compare the 2.
@@ANIMATIONLOVERBT it actually does. Her mother is the very definition of an elitist. So if her mother, the person she seeks validation most from does it she would do it to just to without question just to be acknowledged by her. I'm not saying it excuses her because at the end of the day we are responsible for the choices we make but the end of the day Chloe is still their daughter and the fact that Chloe is the only one suffering while her mother and father get away with it scot free irritates me
@@Sky_901 Chloe has Adrien as an example she sees every day, she could reflect over why he has friends and she has no one. She bullied people also when her mom was far away, for 5 years, because she believed in elitism. And Andre could teach her how to respect rather thn spoil her
Some of these comments are not it at all. People really be reaching into the back rooms to find redeeming qualities in Chloe. I saw someone speculating that marinette was manipulating Adrien into ending his friendship with Chloe. Smh 🤦♀️
that's ridiculous--marinette went out of her way to include chloe and help her gain redemption in maledictator BECAUSE adrien expressed how he cares for chloe. despite everything, she accommodated for adrien's friendship with chloe and tried to see her in a new light. How the heck are some fans speculating that she's a manipulator of all things?! looking back, there was so much wrong with that episode even tho it was an enjoyable one. I hated how adrien inadvertently guilt-tripped Marinette for being happy that her bully was leaving and it led to marinette blaming herself for chloe leaving for new york even tho it was NOT her fault. (I know he had no knowledge of the extent of chloe's bullying, but that still felt icky.) And the episode set up chloe with the potential to be a better person - only for the show to never follow through. False advertising smh
Yes, She did it on the stairs in season 5, and she did it again in Queen Banana not overtly but she does it by making her "views known" and suggesting that she expects people to do as she says. Kinda typical Marinette behaviour though. She throws around negative comments and then makes it known she will be very upset with anyone who disagrees with her, kinda like Chloe bullied the heck out of Marinette and then said "if you object you will get the same" it's just a social dominance thing. With Adrien as the prize. She does this with Adrien by telling him that any good he sees in others in only in himself. She could just as easily have said the same about Felix, but weirdly she doesn't.. because Felix isn't "another girl" & Marinette is only really interested in keeping Adrien away from other girls. Heck if Adrien invited Alya over to watch Art movies Marinette would be just as salty about it. She has a very jealous & controlling personality.
@@90lancaster I think manipulated isn’t the best way to describe what Mari was doing. I think she was trying to protect Adrien from Chloe because she thinks Chloe is a very bad person. Personally, I think I’d do the same thing if my close friend/ crush was friends with the person who bullied me for years (I haven’t actually been in this situation before btw) I think she was just trying to give adrien advice. I do see your point though. This is all just my opinion and how I interpreted the characters. We all look at the world through different lenses after all. Have a great day/ night! ⚠️! DISCLAIMER!⚠️ This is all just my personal opinion, if you disagree please reply respectfully. Pls don’t start WW3 in the comments
@@crust-wf7sw I dont give a shit if sjes irredemable or not, but she was abused by his creator to the point she ended with one of the most miserable endings if not the most in Miravulous, even worst than Lila or Gabriel, and she wasnt even used properly, she was just the Bully of Thomas childhood turn into character so Thomas would hate her own character and make everything to make her... this
@@sebastianaristizabal3871 thats why i said you dropped the crown? because i totally agree with you . chloe was so hated by him that he made the ep. derision. she was the only one to decline an akuma herself, almost got mayura's miraculous and even tried to help protect sabrina from an akuma but thomas just decided to make all of her development build up lost because he hates her so much.
I know that everything was written in, and I agree Marinette doesn't deserve to be hated, but why do you think people can't ignore canon after a certain point if they think the writing is bad?
As i do agree that felix has done some not okay things, the energy is not the same beacuse felix has had some character devlopment, and chloe just got worse.
@@anonymouslilies0898 You’re absolutely right. Let’s forget that Felix S/A Ladybug in his debut episode or that he stole his uncle ring. Let’s also forget that Felix stole every miraculous instead of asking Ladybug for help. And killing people temporarily? never heard of her. Oh and let’s forget that he stalked and kidnapped Kagami. Bc it’s ok since he gets “character development in the laziest way possible that doesn’t create plot at all. Oh yeah and let’s not forget to forget that Ladybug was traumatized by his actions.
@@Gigi-ok9sc Let's also not forget that Felix redeemed himself in the coming episodes. Let's also not forget that the reason he stole his uncle's ring and the miraculous was to get control of his life back! Let's also not forget that Felix did not sexually assault Ladybug, wtf are you on?! He tried to kiss her!! That is NOT sexual assault! It's called a child learning the implications of his actions by IMMEDIATELY receiving karma by way of punch in the face! Jesus, go learn the law before you start talking!
@@kainightshade5033 Having a sob story doesn’t count as redemption, and trying to kiss someone without their consent and being visibly uncomfortable does count as s/a. And ok yea he stole his uncle’s ring to get control if his life, I was a little too harsh there, but did he have to steal all the miraculous and put ladybug through all that just bc he has “tragic backstory”?
I’m glad the first Miraculous channel I subscribed to thinks the same way as I do. It’s insane how much people defend this character. If Marinette’s actions are problematic and is condemned for it, why cant it be the same for Chloe? Her actions are as damaging to a kid. Even after becoming Queen Bee, she never changed at all. It’s always been there. I dont ever say this at all to a villain but she’s never redeemable imo.
No matter what Astruc throw at her, I will always be a Chloe Fan. I just hate Marinette. Plain asimple. Not only that but the Miraculous Team in Season 4 make me want to puke. Everytime I saw Ladybug, Chat Noir and 5 others heros, I wanted To puke. Can you tell me the difference between Rena Rouge, Carapace, Visperion, Vesperia, Ryuko, Pegase, King Monkey, Caprikid ? Absolutely nothing. They are all Nice, wants to be a Hero To help Ladybug, follow Ladybug order. They are all bland. They don't have goals. On the contrary of Chloe. Chloe wants to be regnosize by her Mother and everyone she is exceptionnel, she feels useless, she feels unwanted. She knows everyone hates her but she can't stop herself To bully other because she wants attention. But she artracts bad attention because she bulies others and she knows that but can't stop herself because if she dosen't have attention, she is useless in her eyes. But when she became Queen Bee, she feels wanted and love. She has attention, thing that she wants from her mother since her life because every child wants to be love by the parents. But Audrey was never there, neglets her, abandon her and Andre, mispell her name everytime, Andre is never there for her To be a Dad, never developp a backbone for her. So Chloe became a Bully. Because Bully artracts people's attention. Because if she has attention, then she will make her mother return To Paris and finally.be with her. She cares about herself, yes. But Chloe never became a hero for others, she became a Hero only To attract attention towards her and she will use that attention to make Audrey return To Her. She has a reason and a goal To be a Hero. The others no ! She is a bad person. But everytime she was on screen, she entertain me. I wanted to watch Chloe be a bully, I wanted To see Chloe. That was before Miracle Queen. Queen Bee was totally something needed To that Miraculous Team where everyone is just a slave To Ladybug.
I really hate that Chloe stans are trying to excuse her actions and hate on Marinette. It feels like a double standard to me. Chloe has an absent mom that causes her to act mean, which is totally okay for Chloe stans, but when Marinette knows everything (although I’m using this term very loosely here) about Adrien because she was traumatized by Chloe’s behavior and Kim’s fake love, then it’s time to get out the pitchforks and torches. If you’re going to judge Marinette based on her trauma response, then you need to do the same to Chloe instead of blindly defending Chloe when she’s done worse things than Marinette.
I honeslty think Chloe never wanted to redeem in the first place, and just wanted to fake it for support. Chloe is the true defenetion of someone 'pure evil' she doesn't care about anyone but herself. I feel extremely bad for Marinatte, that if i were in the show. I'd stand up to her and tell her to knock it off. Chloe is a true abuser
I understand exactly how her character but I don’t support her actions of course she is a character and everyone around her got hurt but of course I have to disagree with some things such as comparing characters who’s mom did leave, and what people do need to understand is that Chloe was not just left by her mom but it was seen that her life was controlled by her mom and the people from Paris allowed her to be taken away with her abuser and manipulative mother to ‘teach her to be better’ or so and also the fact that her as a character could have been redeemed maybe not clearly all the way fixed but she could have become a better person. “She was given multiple chances to change she was even taught lessons!” Yes I do agree she was given chances and other things to help her but one thing is breaking out of the cycle of abuse, especially when people aren’t properly helping you throughout the journey to and exactly not teaching her right from wrong does not help. I am not excusing her poor behavior but I do have to say she is redeemable the narrators or Thomas more specially didn’t like her for her unkind nature like most and made sure she wasn’t redeemable or allowed to heal which is exactly why we don’t see much of her being redeemable and not only is it the fact that along side all of this her father allowed every single last bit of it, I know it may sound dumb or stupid but this is in somehow or some form neglecting a child. You may be wondering ‘neglecting a child is so much more than that because he cared for her why is that even needed to be said?’ I would like to let you know abuse comes in many different forms and allowing abuse to be accepted or tolerated just because you love a person doesn’t excuse it. Chloe’s father allowed her mother to abuse and manipulate her and control her life ( of course got her back ) but also allowed Chloe to run over his life and unlike the father he should be didn’t educate her or anything what so ever. So for one thing the real thing Chloe needed was to be educated and taught a lesson that would actually help her through her actions step by step but also to have a stable family. Another thing I would like to add is about Zoe being raised by her mother which is Chloe’s mom is because of not liking her mom didn’t allow her to actually be manipulated by her yes her and Chloe went through the same thing but obviously the difference between chloe and her is that Zoe was the favorite child which again leads back to bad parenting with favoritism and of course had compared to chloe more easier because unlike Zoe, chloe was cared for yes but she wasn’t liked or love by neither her father or mother. Of course I’m not trying to compare anyone’s trauma because they all matter but really if you do the comparison Zoe was much more healthy as a person and didn’t allow her environment to affect her but Chloe is nothing like Zoe and of course is spoiled cold hearted childish and truly just a child who just wants to be loved and treated the way she should have been from childhood, (again this doesn’t excuse her poor behavior). So it’s not really that she’s an unredeemable character it’s more like she’s a tragic and poor written character because none of the writer ever thought about her healed being behind her diseased heart. A person who she can be relatable too is a lot like pink diamond from Steven universe who is aimed to be a villain but really only ever wanted was to be happy and healed but unlike pd she did heal and was happy and much more stuff as well. I would explain more but it would probably be as long as a document and I’m tired but all I have to say is she is redeemable the only ones who aren’t allowing her to be is the people she’s around (Lila and her mom but as for other characters is more or so like they aren’t giving her the proper help-) and the writers (Thomas). Yes she is an abuser and her actions but people are allowed to change and heal from abuse and making her go with her mom to repeat the cycle of that abuse will and can push her to either being a full on villain or even commiting, so yes she can be redeemed and change if given the help and surroundings of people she really needs and plus a life awaking type lesson
Sometimes Chloe Bourgeois is even worse than Gabriel Agreste/Hawk Moth/Monarch. Gabriel might be a full-time supervillain and a manipulative terrorist but he's trying to steal the miraculouses of creation and destruction from Ladybug and Cat Noir only so he can revive his beloved wife, Emilie and create a perfect life for his family.
Chloe is just a spoiled brat who thinks her status as the mayor's daughter lets her do anything she wants without consequences. She is extremely mean to everyone, including people who showed her kindness and forgiveness such as Adrien or Ladybug.
So you're telling me that an abused 14 year old who bullies people is worse than a terrorist who abuses his son and takes advantage of him and doesn't care about his mental health.
@@assiaelkhayate-sl8hu Well, season 5 made us all see Gabriel/Monarch in a much less sympathetic light, but during the previous four seasons, he truly cared about his son, though he couldn't actually show it. Besides, before becoming obsessed with the miraculouses of Ladybug and Cat Noir he was trying to steal them only so he can use their combined powers to revive his wife Emilie, both because he missed her so much and because though that it will make Adrien's life better.
I loved Chloe as a character and I still love her AS A CHARACTER. NOT AS A PERSON. SHE HAD THE CHANCE AND RUINED IT, SHE IS A BAD PERSON WHO WON'T PROBABLY CHANGE. BUT ISN'T IRREDEEMABLE LIKE THOMAS SAID. BUT SHE'S STILL A WASTED CHARACTER WHO COULD HAVE GITTEN BETTER BY BEING QB.
I would like to know what Chloe's issue is with Birthdays one day, it seems to all date back to her 8th Birthday what ever it was that made her loose the plot.
![Winx Club | Tecna being IGNORED and mistreated! [Extended Compilation]](/img/n.gif)
one can dislike the way chloe has been written without denying how she's been written. personally, I wish chloe had been written as a more complex and redeemable person, even if she ultimately doesn't get redeemed, because I enjoy that kind of character more for both heroes and villains. but that isn't the reality of this character, and never has been.
Very understandable! Yeah I feel the MLB writers tend to exaggerate teenagers and what they do quite a bit, like the extreme stalking or the literal crimes they have commited... but eh thats Thomas for ya
@@MiraculouslyLazy I agree, im just disappointed, im pretty neutral on Chloé and i knew that there probably wasn't going to be a redemption arc, but i still feel something there, like i understand her past but i dont justify her actions and even if she stayed the villain, cant we make her more complex than just a stereotypical bully 😮💨
Maybe this is just the fanfic reading side of me or something ;-; i also think, at least for me, when i saw the concept art for queen bee, i thought there was gonna be a Chloé redemption or something of the sort. I dont know if im just dumb for thinking that 😔
@@MiraculouslyLazy yeah I mean, it certainly doesn't ruin my enjoyment of the show! just a minor critique.
@@SilverSnow_Helix Not at all. That was the Plan, Jeremy just Let Thomas derail the show when they took their eyes of the ball to start production of the Miraculous Movie. That is why Zoe was invented heck Chloe even calls her a "Knockoff Queen Bee" and with good reason Zoe stole Chloe's redemption, and heck even stole her "repressed homosexulity" subtext too.
I suppose it's possible they decided to have Luka fix Chloe later on and they couldn't do that is they owned up to Chloe being gay on the show, so they shuffle that over to Zoe, and hope we all forget Chloe lusting over Ladybug and the implied kissing of Sabrina.
I think repressed homosexuality is something they'd be unlikely to bring up again for Chloe, she yeah sorry fans for robbing you all of a "Gay Icon" there I guess.
How the hell Luka can save her I really don't know. but if they end season 5 or 6 with Chloe being sent to Jail I'll be giving Thomas some major stink eye. As I wouldn't blame Chloe or even LIla for that I blame in Universe the characters for abandoning her, and outside of it i'd blame Thomas for being so extreme in his choices.
Like making Chloe murderous.
Let's also talk about how Chloe got Socqueline suspended, and held back, for something outside of school. Damocles is such a pushover. Chloe might as well be the principal with how she can expel or suspend anyone she hates.
I do not even think the Mayor hd such a power to fire Damocles: Andre he is not a member of school staff. At his best, he could ask Damocles why he punished Chloe and whether the detention was fair or not; in the latter case, he could maybe call the police to arrest Damocles for power abuse, not fire Damocles by himself
I was shocked when I saw this episode, and proud of Adrien for FINALLY seeing Chloe for what she truly is.
Yeah and that there are a lot of people relazing why Marinette is the way she is and that she should have never trusted chole with the Bee miraculous and yeah chole's redemption arc never worked for me and yeah it's like ladybug's rewarding her biggest enemy if I were her I would only give her a miraclus if I had no other options what chole did was unforgivable and yeah I see why when Andra divorces adrudy he also disowns chole
Where did you guys watch it? cz i cant find it
I haven't watched it but I will on the miraculous website
Some have pointed out something that one might see as a flaw with the entire show once someone shines a light on it. which is why the hell is Marinette seen as being responsible for Chloe's personal conduct, they can't stand each other (seemingly) Adrien's behaviour on reflection can only be seen as bizarre, cruel or just weird.
He sees his Childhood friend being a jerk, and what does he do "take her in hand" train her like a poorly behaved dog ?
Nope, he ignores her entirely for months, acts like he's disgusted to be in her presence and lets he do what she likes.
He both shows no concerns for those Chloe upsets, and neither does he show any concern for Sabrina or for Chloe herself, at least Nino was initially shown to think Gabriel was a lousy parent, and then they retconned that so the class has no idea how terrible Adrien's home life is so "Marinette can be the one to see it and try to save him".
The whole show is twisted into crazy shapes just so that Marinette can be the one to react to any situation. even if it makes way more sense for someone else to be doing it.
It's kinda like how Alya and Adrien barely speak to each other, the show simply didn't want there to be a relationship there at all so it makes it a blank space with nothing in it. Kinda like how Chloe isn't allowed to have any real opinion on Chef Cesaire and her on Chloe. or how Jagged and Penny barely interact with Chloe, or how Luka & Kagami are being actively kept away from her.
Any path for improvement is cut off for Chloe, and only Marinette is allowed to be he path to redemption, the problem being Marinette doesn't see Chloe as someone she wants to save, she can't stand the girl and isn't interested in making an effort to improve her as Ladybug or Marinette, she just fobs her off.
Then even weirder when Chloe has a shopping list of legit reasons to be angry with Ladybug the show just ignores them all and makes up some random nonsense. & it even implies that Marinette has no clue why Chloe would even be upset with her, you can see the shock when Chloe is angry and distraught and shoves her aside in Queen Banana.
& yet we the viewer is also shown Chloe having a really lousy day, he best male friend being manipulated into abandoning when she's hurt and the terrorist basically saying he's going to keep re-akumatising her until she drops or he does.
& what does the show do in reaction to all that ?
It decides she going to willingly and repeatedly allow herself to be akumatised and treat it like it doesn't matter.
The show is just plane strange really, so yeah I blame the writing not Chloe.
@@virnalassiter382 Chloe should have used the Bee comb only when nobody else was available like in Malediktor or when a hand more was better than a hand less (Catalyst-Mayura and Miraculer) but needed to open her eyes on her fault, that she never did.
People fail to understand that most Chloé fans are disappointed with her season 4-5 writing. Her development was ruined and the show made her into an incompetent villain. Bad writing.
EXACTLY
YES, i dont mind if she was going to be irredemable, but the way they use here... yes, just pure dissapointment
Finally someone said that.
EXACTLY AND ALL THESE FOOLS LIKE THE ONES IN THIS VIDEO CANT COMPREHEND
Honestly, I think the Chloe fans are just seeing Chloe the way they want to see her character. People can complain all they want, but all of the heroes have spent their time since their debut episodes making an effort to do good in Paris and keep the people safe from villains. If you really look back on the second and third seasons, you can see that Chloe/Queen Bee did not; and please don't count Malediktator or Heroes Day, she wasn't really doing anything for Paris, she was just doing stuff for clout. If I were a citizen of any city she lived in, I wouldn't want her as my hero.
- Personally, the episode comes off as, "This episode is short so here's Chloe being the worst to pad out the time." Chloe's role on the flashback only serves to reinforce what we already know. She has fun hurting Marinette, Kim had a huge crush on her, Sabrina is her willing-unwilling minon, and the teachers at this school are so useless I'm surprised they're not the villains. Maybe if the episode was from Adrien's perspective and he learned of what Chloe actually did to Marinette for all those years then contrasting that with Kim's unintentionally harmful prank. Then you'd have him realizing that Chloe can't change because she doesn't regret her actions whereas Kim does and aplogises for it. Reinforcing that Chloe is irredeemable because she has nothing to loose.
If Chloe is cut out, then there's a solid episode on a past experience Marinette had with Kim and why she's so hesitant and anxious about her love life. It makes sense narratively since Kim has always been portrayed as airheaded, and for him to be an insensitive prankster isn't out of character for him. It feels more organic because Kim isn't pranking her to be malicious he just thinks it's funny and doesn't understand why it was harmful because they're in his home turf. To Kim, swimming and being in the pool is the best thing ever, there's no way it can hurt anyone, especially not when you FALL OFF THE HIGH DIVE. He only reflects when he's directly confronted about what he's done by his friends and is actually remorseful.
As far as Chloe goes in the story, she doesn't add anything of value other than to be a scapegoat for other character's development rather than having any of her own.
Marinette has a crush on Kim not the other way around
And let's not forget how Chloe treats Sabrina, she basically bullied the girl into carrying out the things that under normal circumstances, Sabrina wouldn't agree to do, and Sabrina finally breaks and calls Marinette about everything that Chloe has used her to do. It showed that Chloe is manipulative, she will force people to do what she wants, this way she not only gets to satisfy her unhealthy desire to see other people suffer, she also have a way to get out of everything she did.
When she bullies people to a point they need to see the principal, it was never Chloe who is deemed to be responsible, and I think that played into the part of why she can't have a redemption arc. It's best to teach children that they need to be responsible for their own actions when they're young, they're like 15 in this show, and Chloe has been bullying Marinette for 3 years, that could only mean that Chloe started Marinette's trauma when they were 12, just finished elementary school and entering middle school. And she's still bullying Marinette every single chance she gets, like that's a lot of chances for the next 3 years of high school they need to go through, I imagine that she's never been deemed responsible for the 3 years period prior to entering high school, and that's the reason why she deemed the behaviors she display as acceptable because no one in the last 3 years had actually gotten through to her about her behaviors were not okay.
I'm not saying that Marinette stalking Adrien is an okay thing to do, like I wish Alya was there to sort out Marinette's love problems so she didn't turn into a stalker like she did. But we actually see Marinette sort things out with Alya's help and is finally able to spend time with Adrien without stalking him. That's a big improvement.
That's the difference between Marinette and Chloe.
When other people do things that are not okay, they eventually learned how to be a decent human being, learning from their mistakes and become a better person, Chloe never realized her mistakes, she took the chances others give her as something they're supposed to give her. But other people gave her chances because they believed that she could change for the better and out of the kindness of their heart, not because they're supposed to give her second chances again and again.
Bullying is no joke, I heard a story that the root cause of a 15 year boy's death was bullying, that's also the reason why I'm really concerned when my little sister tells me that a lot of people don't like one particular person in the class because that's going into the dangerous territory of potentially bullying, and I don't want any kid to experience that.
In one of the episodes, Chloe said that she doesn't love anyone, and then the creators pointed out with the next line that Chloe only loves herself, I think that pretty much sums up her character.
Bullying is not a joke and seriously there are people like Chloe who never change .
Most of the time Chloe's behaviours treated as jokes. Plot device at worst. Being a joke or a plot device is her whole purpose in S1.
I get what you want to say, but mlb is not a good example to give.
@@Mebro-m6dit is not treated as a joke. They always makes sure the audience sees that what she is doing is wrong. Marrienette on the other hand gets a pass for her stalkerish and borderline yandere behaviour.
@@happilyevernever4289do you think their counterparts from the movie are better than them?
@@happilyevernever4289 Derision literally explained why she does her “stalking”.
@@happilyevernever4289 you don’t even know what yandere even is. Look up Himiko Toga and then shut it on yandere. You are not educated on this.
I haven't seen this episode yet, but knowing how much Chloe has damaged her self-esteem and watching this video just makes me disappointed that people would still support her. Yes, her character was pretty sassy and funny sometimes but also knowing how horrible the bullying was...I can't look at Chloe the same. Breaks my heart for Marinette as someone who has been bullied and has been in the shoes of Marinette's old friend.
Yeah I hated her sense the first season and yeah I heard that show would bring more superheroes I exclude chole because yeah she did absolutely nothing for me to see her as a superhero and yeah even if her half sister was just a nice version of her I still prefer her over chole as queen bee
@@virnalassiter382 I prefer Chloe's Transformation to that of Vesperia's I like the music better on it too.
I miss those set piece transformations they are so poorly done now, just look how little effort they put into Mister Bug and Lady Noire, the leeched a lot of the excitement out of their return by doing a cheap transformation.
I respect your opinion I like the vespria transformation music more than queen bee's oh and as you can see when Zoe was chosen to be a superhero the first time just like marionette she didn't feel quifaled for the job and yeah that's why marinette's costume was plain represents feeling like the wrong choice so why isn't zoe's coustme plain? And by the second time she's chosen I think she should have felt quilted now so why is kitty noir's coustme makes her look like she's not quilted for the job? Unless maybe the animator's are too lazy to get more pictures on their mind and yeah mylene didn't feel quifaled herself that's why only the mask made her look like a real superhero the rest looks more like a wonzzie than supersuit and yeah Sabrina Ivan Marc and nathiel's coustmes they don't even look super duper despite the fact that Marc and nathiel create superhero comics I see why we didn't get a transformation for kitty noir if kitty noir didn't get a transformation just because it scares a lot of people than why aspik? Aspik makes Adrian look worse than before even worse than cat walker and kitty noir combined and yeah I don't even know if julka was excited to be a superhero or not because yeah she seems not to be in the mood and her coustme represents her being one of my top favorites so like yeah is she hinding her true personality and showing her true personality as her alter ego because of her father like Adrian?
@@virnalassiter382 I think the most logical answer to all your questions is that the designers did an inadequate job with the designs.
the fans who support and excuse so much CHloe are like the ones for Draco Malfoy or Sevrrus Snape: as soon as they see the a**h**e crying, they forget the faults the characters never repent for and the bullying that goes on
Is anyone talking about how hypocritical Chloé was at the end of the episode? She calls Adrien a traitor for disowning her, ignoring the fact that she caused the breakdown of their friendship by not keeping her promise to be nicer to others and proving he can't reason with her in "Queen Banana". To say nothing of the sheer hypocrisy of _Chloé_ of all people, the same girl who turned on Ladybug and Chat Noir and nearly handed the entire city to Hawk Moth simply because they denied her something that was never hers to begin with, calling *anyone* a traitor.
Im afraid thats gonna be chalked up to a cotinuity hiccup on the writers part.
@@tonyflynn1801 Or maybe it being hypocritical was the intended audience reaction.
@@joseph86255 Nah, just inconsistent writing, because Marinette is very much a hypocrite too but the show doesn't even address it, let alone treat it as her character flaw.
@@kou7191 It's not that she is a hypocrite so much as she can be one.
Yeah I’ve noticed!
The problem is that Marinette trauma does not make sense, since there is no preparation or foreshadowing. She wasn’t traumatized by the pool in Mr Pigeon 72 and seems ok with Kim and Sabrina, even though they supposedly helped Chloe playing her dirty tricks.
For Mylène case : people tend to forget she has a loving father who cares about her, and supporting friends on the contrary of Chloe.
Plus, Chloe used to admire her mother a lot, and acted the way she is because she didn’t get proper education.
Concerning Ladybug, she feeled betrayed by her in the first place, since she played with her feelings in Miraculer (by not being honest with her). Hawkmoth played with her insecurities and fear of abandonment where Ladybug chose to give the miraculous to Kagami.
Of course, she is still a bad person and that’s no excuse, but that kinda explains the way she thinks.
Chloe needs guidance and therapy, not being left alone by herself. And besides, she is still a teenager. She still can change.
I agree your last sentence, but for this to work, it would need an immense amount of time to be dedicated just for her. Where would you find a person to be willing to do this? Moreover, does anyone deserve this? To sacrifice all their time and effort just to redeem her, and tolerate all her wrongdoings in the process? I'd be happy if someone is willing to do this, but honestly we cant have this as an reasonable expectation. And the most important thing is, the guidance and therapy would only work if she herself has the intension to turn over a new leaf. We do see that she had shown some in season 2 and 3, but apparently her desire to hold power overpowers her faint trace of kindness. Same like many chloe stans, I've always hoped that chloe would get a redemption arc eventually, but the decision made by the writers to present how things are now is reasonable.
I think they said once that Alix can't swim they never did anything with that either.
Actually I don’t feel like she is willing to overpower others. She is just reproducing toxic behaviors taught by her mother.
Also she doesn’t look like to know what “power” is.
Will that excuse all her wrong doing ? Of course not !
And Marinette and her friends have all the rights to hate her.
But she can atone her mistakes by being influenced with a healthy relationship.
For example, Andre actually learning to stand for himself and take responsibility in his daughter’s education. After all, it’s his role as a father.
Or maybe Sabrina standing for herself and apologizing to Marinette for her wrongdoings ( not gonna lie, she is not better than Chloe).
Also I don’t think she needs that much screentime. There is much more things the series needs to develop than useless drama. Like Lila or the Agreste story.
But if you want to convince me Chloe is bad and unwilling to change, make it have sense. Explain her psychology.
I will break down for you why these other episodes do not fit the narrative:
Dark Cupid: This is because Marinette's fear isn't Kim, Sabrina, or Chloe. Marinette's true fear was love ITSELF. Think about it: Marinette has been in a state of Dissociative amnesia during the entire run of the series. Dissociative amnesia can be so powerful, it can cause a person to block out entire timelines and the person/person involved in said timeline. As this was her state, her trauma didn't activate due to the simple reason that there was no trigger. Love itself is her trigger and there were no moments requiring Marinette to express feelings or vulnerability in this episode. Therefore, Dark Cupid does not work.
Mr. Pigeon 72: Here it's the same thing. Many people have asked why she wasn't afraid when she fell into the water. Again. Water isn't her fear. Love is her fear. In Mr. Pigeon 72, she wasn't faced with being vulnerable to Adrien. Therefore, this episode does not work either.
Here's why her trauma DID work in Derision: If you pay attention to the episodes that happened before this one, you'll remember Marinette saying "I have a problem but idk what" everytime she and Adrien get close. Every time Adrien tries to express his newfound feelings, she shuts him down instantly and runs away. This is her trauma breaking through! As the episodes pass, it slowly increases in severity. Then we reach the morning of her first official date with Adrien. She's terrified and doesn't know why! Panic attacks occur every 5 minutes, She can't think straight, breathe straight, even! As she gets closer to her moment with Adrien, it gets worse as all the memories are coming back. She sees Kim, Adrien tries to bring her into the water, and that's her snapping point! SHE LOSES IT AND HAS NO IDEA WHY SHE'S LOST IT!! This was because...the trauma finally broke through after being buried for nearly a year and it all came flooding back. I hope this explains things and if you want, you can ask me to clear up anything.
Chloe's redemption arc was thrown out the window as soon as they first thought out this episode's plot. Chloe was so well written in season 2 when she got the bee miraculous, this was obviously well before derison was ever an episode. In miracle queen, she was angry at marinette for not choosing her to save her parents,. In the same episode, half the identities of the other miraculous users were revealed to hawkmoth. Then, in season 4, Ryuko, King monkey, Viperion, Rena rouge, Carapace and Pegasus (who were known to Gabriel) were allowed to use there miraculous. As much as I love Chloe, this episode makes me sad because she will probably never get the redemption that was promised. In style queen, she wants the validation of her mother and she left her. She says to her "Mom, why don't you love me?"
Chloe was made up as they went along, she went from bully to hero back to bully.
I hope that people can see both sides and that chloe and marinette stans don't keep fighting
Ikr
Except if you really look at everything, she was not going to be redeemed. She wasn’t promised any redemption and neither were you people need to just look at Chloe objectively and stop thinking about it through the lens of what they wanted.
That's really true: because I remember getting bullied at only 10 years old- by a mean girl by the name of Jackie Griffin- whose actions reminded me of Chloe's- so message to anyone who watches this show. Don't Support Bullying.
and do not excuse bullies forever, any reason cannot be fixed by bullying
as someone who has been bullied i get what yr saying but chloe stans see chloe as a character who could have had potential. it would be nice have a character that used to be a bad person and changed for the better. people keep on looking at chloe like she is actually made her mistakes. but chloe know is not even a bully. she is a pure abuser. honestly chloe stans whenever they think about chloe they think about a character reedemed after season 2.
I’m so surprised that the fandom still supports chole and blaming it in her mommy issues is no excuse for her actions. Chole has had many chances but never took them.
Edit: My notifications 😭😭
Period.
I knew she would never 👎 change at all since the beginning of the series
Maybe someone who is honestly bad is more likeable that someone who lies to themselves, and hurts others while denying they do (i.e. Marinette through much of season 4)
But I don't think we should dismiss the criticism of Thomas being a jerk with Chloe's writing as he actually has changed a lot.
Chloe wouldn't have prevented Zoe from walking through the lobby, or even really cared that Marinette was in the Hotel, that literally makes no sense even in the context of season 4.
Chloe didn't care that Marinette was in the Hotel, Marinette has not really gone out of her way to upset he really enough for her to react like that.
Maybe if Chloe had found out Ladybug was Marinette a lot of her actions would make more sense. Heck doubly so if she found out Adrien was Cat Noir too.
But I do think You have to read the subtext with Chloe as there tends to be a fair bit of it, even Lila occasionally lets some truth slip into her lies. & Chloe will often say the exact opposite of what she means I feel.
That said I think Chloe thinks Marinette is a "Freak" and she is warning him off, I can't say she's wrong, just tactless about it. but as I said all that season 5 is just Thomas acting crazy when he's off the leash. He makes much the same excuses on twitter and then get angry when people point out he's not reflecting canon he's re-writing canon. like he expects people to forget, kinda ironic that he suffered the same issue himself with Kim's name being changed without them telling him. Despite it already being on screen in the end titles of the Class Movie.
So now we have him saying "Oh Chloe always had these extreme behaviours" yeah and lets be honest every new viewer the show picks up is going to notice the same issue as people do now.
All that is changing is people are not having to find excuses for why she wasn't like that for 3 seasons.
@@90lancaster yeah I agree
It’s not an excuse but it does explain her behaviour. It would also just be nice to see a redemption arc lol, feels a bit weird that the writers showed her mom being abusive and neglectful but still decided to just keep her as a bully
What I will say about Marinette's "stalking" is that most of the time she is influenced by her friends, sometimes even outright forced. Marinette has said many times that she didn't want to, or she was nervous, and she was ignored and then blamed for the consequences that happened. Alya is the MAIN CULPRIT in this, I mean she tried to force Marinette into an elevator with Adrien despite her saying NO. Even Rose told her that they wouldn't hang out with her if she didn't give him a gift, meaning they'd ice her out. That's so out of pocket and there's so many times that she wanted to give up on Adrien and tried and was literally dragged back into liking him because of others.
You’re right
I had wanted Chloe to get redeemed back in season 2. I’m disappointed that she didn’t, but I understand that she couldn’t be redeemed by this point in the series. I doubt the writers had this episode planned way ahead of time, although they did manage to fit it well into the story.
I want say, to play devil’s advocate, I can see where Chloe stans are coming from. People should be allowed to enjoy watching whatever characters they find interesting, and when someone tells a fan that they are morally wrong for liking a character that’s done bad things, that leaves the fan with no choice but to defend the character. Too frequently, people wrap a fan’s morally with the characters they enjoy watching the most. Sometimes villains are just fun to watch! That doesn’t mean they should win or have done nothing wrong. That doesn’t mean people who like them are evil.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if some fans relate to Chloe and want her to get better because that means they could get better, but that’s another issue. I honestly don’t think we should ever consider a kid or teenage to be beyond redemption, even when they’ve done bad things. Everyone deserves the chance to get better, and many people do get better after getting therapy or other mental health treatment.
Everything was planned love. They planned this way before the first episode.
@@christinamomern9100 We don’t know for sure. At least, I haven’t heard about any writers confirming if it was planned or not, so we can only speculate. I’ve heard both evidence for it being planned and evidence against it being planned. I’d believe they had some idea of this backstory, but I doubt they had it all planned out. Not that it matters; it’s only speculation.
Yeah you can like them but don't try to defend them for the awful shit they do, like with Dottore fans (from genshin) he literally experimented on CHILDREN and ppl still try to find a way to defend it like "oh he probs has a terrible background" no you don't need a terrible background to be a terrible character, like Mylene said her mum left yet she isn't being a brat like Chloe but yet here we are I like Dabi as a villian character (from MHA) but I'm not saying him murdering innocent ppl is justified because his dad was abusive 😂 like no he is morally wrong for what he's done even if his dad played a part in making who he is the same applies to Chloe stop defending her and condem her for her actions because ya'll love to condem Marinette for hers but can't do it for Chloe
@@christinamomern9100 Kim said he was scared of spiders back in Darkblade, so I doubt it
Thank you for defending, Chloe defenders.
"Chloé isn't a bully, she's an abuser" The truth has been spoken, and it's about time Chloé stans realize the true nature of this character. She's abusive, cruel, sadistic, dangerous and insensitive, just like Lila. There's a reason these two biatches have been getting along so well lately. Chloe is just less subtle and more violent in her attacks, she has the power of her father to escape the consequences of all her abusive acts.
Chloé is an antagonist, a villain, and it's okay to like her as that. Good villains aren't always those with a tragic backstory and understandable motivations, sometimes villains can just be despicable people that are written to be hated, or characters with background that can explain why they behave a certain way, but doesn't excuse their lack of heart and humanity in the slightlest. I'm getting tired of people thinking Chloé is a great person deep inside who deserves the Bee Miraculous and that Marinette was unfair to her or that Chloé is justified in her horrible actions. The truth is that Chloé isn't a good person, and she chose to remain that way, even if people gave her the chance to become better. She was never interrested in being a hero or a better person, she just wanted the power of the Bee Miraculous and Ladybug's respect and attention and threw a tantrum when she could no longer have it.
Just like you said, Chloé only ever show up kindness and decency as long as she could get something in return.
So MiraculouslyLazy, thank you a lot for this video 😭
1000%. Thank you for watching ❤ (and for your intelligence)
I have a lot of amusement with how every word someone says about Chloe also applies to Marinette.
They are broken reflections of each other, just look at the speech Marinette gives when Lila is making a play for her class presidency it's entirely made of self delusions about herself, they even gave Juleka and Rose a reaction shot showing they were not buying it and that some of Lila's jabs really did land home with some force.
Marinette is a selfish person, so is Chloe, maybe they will change one day maybe they won't but I certainly am not going to agree with Thomas that all of Marinette's sins need to be forgiven or forgotten and all of Cat Noir's and Chloe's remembered and held against them.
If you want an example of someone who the show has some very strange ideas about look at Felix, he is likely the dark reflection of the worst of Adrien as you can see he behaves no at all unlike Cat Blanc.
@@90lancaster Marinette selfish ? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
quiet 90 something marionette is not selfish she just seems that way when she attempts to get rid of other girls "dating" him she's really very sweet and kind and generous and yeah I agree with everything you say let me explain all the bad things chole did that I never liked the fact that she was a superhero lady wifi got alya in trouble princess fragrance 1.she hurt rose's feelings telling her she can't see prince alia which is what caused her to get akumized 2.she stole tikki and refused to give it back what a criminal Mr pigeon 1. Made Sabrina do her homework again 2.Copied marionette's school assignment 3.blamed her for cheating rogercop trying to convince the whole class that marionette stole her bracelet and tried to convince roger to aresst her darkblade like wise kid said she mauplatied Sabrina to sneak into marionette's house and still something that they could use against marionette timebreaker she broke Alex's watch and that lend her getting akumized refleakta she forced Sabrina to lock julka to keep her from entering the photo shoot which got her to akumize someone again ladybug and cat noir origins part 1 just like in the flashback of when she was a freshman chole bullies marionette on the first day of school stoneheart when Adrian arrives at fransco DuPont high school chole makes marionette think that Adrian is a bully AND put penot butter on her chair despair bear she pulled the fire alarm and blamed it on marionette and not only that the whole class except her is forced to clean the backyard robostis while everyone else was so impressed with Max's robot's friend chole wasn't zombizo 1.sabtiozed marinette's gift for ms bustia 2.she apologizes to ms bustia who is the person rewarding her for it but not marionette who worked so hard on the present style queen stole the miraculoues of the bee instead of waiting Intel she got a chance to give it back to ladybug queen wasp exposed her identity to Paris gamer 2.0 hurt max's feelings lieing to him about everyone thinking his game is boring stormy weather 2 insulting aurora heart hunter although ladybug was being selfish of choosing kagmi over her just to keep kagmi away from Adrian I don't scold her for not choosing chole because yeah chole was so ready to be queen bee just because her parents are akumized and yeah she just betrayed ladybug for no good reason and yeah I would have nothing have made her a miraculous holder if I were ladybug miracle queen exposed all the miraculoues holders of season 2 and 3 except ladybug and cat noir sole crusher desrispting her sister for who she is queen banana tried to steal her sister's place Gabriel agreste recording the school meeting defagration laughed at marionette falling off the chair perfection bullied marionette during yoga class derision put ants in her locker messed up her jeans and threw her in the pool to death and finally adoration got expelled and almost had her friends turn against her
@@90lancaster the same Marinette that puts people before herself is selfish omfg
Thank you for actually understanding the plot. Chloe stans are after me.
they're really coming for us in these comments 😭😭😭
Yeah I'm glad that Lila was never trusted with a miraculous and yeah her alter ego as a superhero was really a supervillain pretending to be a superhero she's the nightmare of this show and yeah definitely donsen't deserve better and yeah at least she's not idolizing a superhero at the time chole was fan girling over ladybug I kind of wish she knew that Marinette is ladybug so that she would hate ladybug earlier but now that she's officially left ladybug's side don't need her to know anything now I just prefer Lila over chole on villny Marinette's problems with Lila are alot more complicated than her problems with chole so yeah I only value chole over Lila sense yeah there were good moments with her
There's still people giving Chloé plenty of excuses for her despicable behavior while implying that Marinette Marinette deserved to be bullied by Chloe
@@maellesaliou5871 that is awful. Chloe started by treating like crap everyone was not as rich as her: why should this be Mari’s fault?! And being neglected by Audrey does not justify Chloe’s behavior that is as awful as Audrey’s one: Chloe herself should be the 1st to pay respect after what she saw in Audrey
@@MiraculouslyLazyYEAH BC YALL ARE SLOW YOU CANT TELL HOW THEY RUINED HER CHARACTER AND WANTED TO REPLACE CHLOE WITH ZOE AND IF CHLOE WAS A NICE CHARACTER THERR WOULDNT EVEN BE A SEASON 1 WITH OUT HER I COULD CARE LEES ABOUT SOME FAKE TRAUMA 😹 that was out in 4 seasons later to ruin her
With Marinette it's also important to note she is called out fot it and she herself acknowledges that it's crazy, like in Season 5 in what I'll call Glaciator 3, she talks about how her crush was making her act crazy and in the worst ways. The stalking is never presented as a good thing.
ppl really jump over hurdles to defend chloe yet they won’t try to sympathize with marinette at all💀💀
@@Artsyjason They have eyes
I don’t get them 💀
@@90lancaster Blinded eyes apparently.
@@90lancaster more like mob mentality
@@Artsyjason They have different sides of views and beliefs.
For me I LOVED this episode. Not only does it show more from Marinette other than her love life but we also see how bullying can really be. Teachers won't do anything, other students are afraid to stand up for the bullied person and how it can affect even after really long time after the bullying has ended. Yes I know this show is bad but I think it's so bad that it's good 💀 And this episode captured it perfectly and finally some good writing
Good writing. Amm. This episode is a huge damage for the show. So many plot holes exist in that one episode. It's writers at worst!
@@Mebro-m6d I KNOW. but at this point I don't even care🥲 The show is so bad that I get exited when the show just progresses
@@Mebro-m6dthere are no plot holes, you just want to defend Chloé in any way you can that YOU wrongfully remember the details of the series.
@@SymbolOfPeace8 I feel like YOU want to defend the writters no matter what.
The reason i hate this episode isn't bcs of Chloe, but how it kills so many characters just to emphasize how bad she is. Here's a list:
-Kim was humiliated by her, yet still calls her the most beautiful and funniest girl IN FRONT OF HIS GIRLFRIEND. Is this dude brain dead or something?
-Mari was abused by her, yet for seasons, she's never shown to have any actual hostility towards her. They're portrayed as rivals, or just mutual dislike. It makes Mari looks stupid for ever acting kind and giving chances for her. Heck, she was even sad when Adrien was sad that Chloe was leaving in Malediktator. She was supposed to be the one who held a week long party bcs Chloe's finally gone
-Adrien just now stood up against her, not for the countless times she's being a bad person. Heck, she publicly shows willing to get akumatized in Deflagration, and he said nothing about it? It makes him a simp who only grows spine when his gf is in trouble just to make us think like he's protective. No, it makes him an apathist until its convenient
-Tom and Sabine becomes horrible parents for not even trying to change school for their daughter
-Sabrina becomes a huge hypocrite bcs in Adoration, she has problem with stealing, but here she's willing, even enjoying, serving an abuser?
-Im not gonna bother with the teachers. Ive seen dead rats with more competency than they ever have
So yeah, definitely the second worst episode ever. This has been my opinion, if you disagree, leave a reply, id like to see someone else's perspective
Well said 👏👏👏
Sabrina lacks a backbone, because CHloe is the only "friend" she has ever had. Toxic relationship
Adrien, similar, because he had no friends before going to public school, apart from Chloe. MAybe he thought for months he could reason CHloe and now he opened his eyes.
Kim is the real inconsistent, because he understood what an ass Chloe is already in Dark Cupid
This explains all the issues I have with the episode. I appreciate it because it provides a better understanding of Marinette's personality, but when I look at it from the perspective of the whole show, it feels awkward.
That's why I feel as if it might have been add-in at a later point.
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I think this show should have used more flashbacks for us to have a more rounded understanding narratively. If the flashbacks of Chloe and Kim's abuse were shown earlier (even just a glimpse), it would explain more of how she thinks and acts towards Adrian, even Chat Noir (possibly her mentality as Ladybug).
In my opinion, those flashbacks alone would have made the show way more engaging (at least for me). In these past 7ish years, all of the narrative points that those flashbacks would have matured felt one-dimensional, underdeveloped, or confusing.
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Another point is that Marinette's stalking most of the time (I have to rewatch to check) was not addressed as problematic, both in the story's world (i.e. other characters) and in the narration (the story expressing it as so); It appeared that the show is suggesting that Marinette's stalking behavior is not an issue, which is troubling given that she is the main character of a children's program and is typically depicted as a virtuous individual. If we were given more material to analyze this aspect of her, there would probably be fewer people upset with her. So again, this feels out of nowhere.
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I have been watching this show since I was young, but I no longer expect good narrative progression, and my emotional investment has greatly decreased. I'm only here to see how it ends, so I stopped caring about the main cast, including Chloe. This just points out to me more weird things, in this story.
Another point is that Marinette holds no resentment toward Kim throughout the show. Yes, we do see resentment from Marienette toward Chloe, but nothing to Kim. Why?
@@humans1767 indeed
Chloe is really an awful person, I feel bad for Marinette, and that was very sad about what happened in the flashback. Chloe should be a lot of trouble for everything.
It hurts me knowing this character had emotional moments and was at time honest in front of ladybug and cat noir. I actually had hope for her, even shed a tear. How could she go from that, to being an even worse bully than she was before? How does that happen?
Same, she was a complex character, but now they’re trying to make her just a simple one sided villain
I loved Chloe I was a fan and I used to blame her actions because of the way she was raised or treated by her parents but now I really can’t look at her the same way I did before after watching S5 EP14. I actually had hope for her character to have improvement but now I think her character is useless and disgusting. Also I don’t think the show is going anywhere so I stopped watching recently because it became really messed up for me and I don’t see the point in watching anymore. Hopefully, the show will go somewhere good and I also hope that Chloe’s character will get the hate it deserves but it’s not too late for the producers to change Chloe or make her feel bad about herself in general.
Coz the writers don't wanna write a complex character and reduced her to try propel up the MCs.
4:39 it's so ironically funny to me how this scene was shown I'm no chloe stan but damn was season 2 a ride and I was reallyyy hoping for Chloe to get a redemption arc because like in the episode zombizou she had POTENTIAL to be redeemed but unfortunately it was thrown away..
5:26 as someone who has a "friend" like this, I agree so much to your statement like what you said with Mylene, just because your mom abandoned you, doesn't give you the excuse to be bratty and selfish. Although it does depend on your environment because even if Mylene didn't grew up without a mom, she still had a loving father. Chloe on the other hand was spoiled to death and was never given any actual love and/or discipline by Andre.
6:17 I might seem offended but not really so tell me why is my dislike for both girls stupid? This show is such a trainwreck and I just like to laugh at how stupid the writing for the show is.
6:37 same with Chloe and by the time people called her out on her ways, she was already too bratty and uncaring to listen to them. Andre should be a better father instead of just giving Chloe what she wants
6:48 again I was really disappointed when Chloe wasn't redeemed she honestly seem to actually care for ms bustier :(( (and for sabrina in that scene in the episode ladybug)
She cares only people who do not scold her
she cares Bustier only because Bustier is "nice" u like Audrey. Threality is that Bustier is a naive person who never punishes bullies, therefore Chloe thinks she is always right. Chloe apologized Bustier for disappointing her, SHE DID NOT feel guilty for vandalizing a work that costed time and had an affective value. Bustier too should have pointed this, not only "our apologize is the best birthday gift for me". The worst maybe is that Marinette was so moved by this tearful apologize that did not ask for a deserved apologize
Chloe is even mean to her family
Imagine you have 2 characters as antogonists in a show:
-One of these 2 characters is an abuser father that abuses his son, locked him in a mansion for 14 years, never spends time with him nor plans anything for his birthdays and constently tries to control absolutely every single aspect of his life, but is also a LITTERAL FREAKING TERRORIST who causes destruction in all of Paris, puts in danger innocent people (including his son and his friends) and is willing to sacrifice countless lives for a selfish purpose
-The other character is Chloe Bourgeois
Guess which one of these characters had a redemption in the end and which one is seen as the iredeemable monster?
No, Gabriel was not redeemed. Stop with that lie. He took the easy way out. Marinette only said that he died as a hero purely to protect Adrian that’s all there is to it.
I agree with you but I really with Gabriel would get justice for all the bad things he did @@AnInkStick
Uhm. I dont know how I feel about this episode. Chloe is 100% irredeemable, I can say that, but I also get why chloe stans are saying how random this plot is ESPECIALLY because marinette has no resentment towards kim for what he did, seeing how shes totally cool with him in gamer, helped him in siren, and repeatedly gave him the monkey miraculous. I get the message, I was bullied sorta like this for 4 years myself, and as much as the old episodes kind of hint at this, it still seems extremely unexpected and kinda roughly worked into the episode.(basically saying I wouldve been eased into this ark a lot better if they started dropping hints about it). I dont wish for a chloe redemption ark anymore as that would be too problematic, all I wanna say is that I REALLLY wish they didnt hype me up in the season 2 finale, in ladybug (season 3 ep), and just between those periods in general, I loved seeing chloe grow and I especially loved the dynamic she added to the hero team, guess that plot will just have to be part of those good old days. 😞❤
Have you ever heard of a thing called dissociative amnesia? It’s one of the brain repress as a memory that he considers to traumatic in order to protect itself. It’s very likely this happened to her.
@@AnInkStick I suppose that is an explanation. But then again if she was trying to forget about it why did she jump right back into what happened as soon as she saw kim at the pool...? Not saying anything just question miraculous logic a little bit.
@@kittysquad3003 to be fair Marinette was at risk at being akumatized and she needed to pin down why it was happening so she could stop it.
@@AnInkStick u would know that people don't get dissociative amnesia coz of the stuff Chloe or Kim did. 😂😂😂 You get those for stuff much worse. Y'all just throwing words out there without knowing shit about what it is and how and why it happens.
FINALLY SOMEONE WITH SENSES!!
There are other problems with this episode then "just Chloe". I don’t care for Chloe anymore b/c she wasn’t meant to be a major character in miraculous ladybug to begin with.
But I don’t understand why people are only focusing on Chloe when there’s other issues with this episode.
This episode makes it seem like Marinette’s behavior towards Adrien was justified rather then helping her character grow. If this episode took place before the events in season 4 all of us would’ve sympathized with Marinette’s character more.
And by the time season 4 comes into the play, us as the audience would know that she’s going to get the consequences of her actions like shown in the last episode of season 4.
But I don’t sympathize with her because this episode shouldn’t be a episode that’s in SEASON 5.
Miraculous has a huge problem with timing and the organization of episodes. Which can actually ruin the writing of the show and it’s characters.
Please know that this is just my opinion and I’m speaking from a writers POV.
ABOUT TIME SOMEONE SAID THIS! Yeah Chloe sucks now but this episode should’ve been established in earlier seasons so that we can sympathize with marionette’s character. Season 5 is way too late for derision to appear.
@@shhshfvzcmahdk6057 Thank you for understanding my POV. I’ve been seeing a lot of people only focus on Chloe instead of the real problem with this episode and how it can ruin Marinette’s character.
THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH !!!😭😭😭😭😭😭 IN MY OPINION THIS EPISODE DOESNT DESERVE TO EXIST FOR MANY REASONS SUCH AS INCONSISTENCY
The writing for this show is a mess.
Because if they can write off Chloe, they sure as well can write off Marrienette's creepy behaviour towards Adrien as somehow cute and loving. Coz he's supposed to be the love interest afterall, Marrienette's sidekick. Everyone's characterisation can go to hell as long as Marrienette looks good.
I hate what the writers have done to Chloe. There was major potential back in season two for redemption. Now it's just sickening to watch how much they've ruined her.
You're blaming the writers AGAIN. Chloe has been this way from the START. She has ALWAYS been bad. Any good she has done she has only done to get something in return.
Bruh...they ruined a BAD character by having her be more BAD...make it make sense
@@TheWiseGroupProductions really? You couldn’t be more wrong. Chloe was a bully in the first season. Not an abuser. She made fun of people, yes, but she didn’t control the entire school and everyone’s lives like an insane person. You can’t honestly look at season 1 Chloe and compare it to season 5 and say it’s the same person. They’re trashing on Chloe’s character to make Marinette look better. That’s called lazy writing.
@@TheWiseGroupProductions and what about those times she gave her Miraculous back to Ladybug willingly in season two? It was because she decided to do the right thing. What about that time she admitted she felt useless and didn’t actually care about Marinette? She wasn’t always bad. She had the potential to turn good and they completely trashed her in the worst way
@@kainightshade5033 the only reason they’re turning Chloe into a crazy person is to make Marinette look better. In a good story, you shouldn’t have to do that. You shouldn’t have to turn one character into a monster to make another look like a hero.
Chloe Stans are probably bullies themselves lmao
real lmao
She isnt a terrible person, the writers wanted to make her an irredeemable person simply because they hate her. Sure her actions are terrible but she doesnt even have a good family system to support her. Also is it even selfish to save your family for the greater good? She choose to work with hawk moth to save her family.
I’m reminded by someone that go by Cyrus the great (no hate towards him) that’s made one in defense of Chloe video and has made multiple videos, bashing Marinette and I didn’t really like it because he’s trying to paint Marinette as an awful person Meanwhile, Chloe has done more harm. And the way how people invalidates Marinette trauma by saying that it was just written in the last second etc., rubs me the wrong way
Chloe has one outstanding thing going for her......
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She's not Bob Roth.
Chloe is the reason why marinette can’t confess her feelings to adrien because of Kim pranking Mari
and what about the reason for which CHloe did not reveal Mari's crush? she did not say "it you who must telling him, Dupain Cheng, and see whom he chooses, these things must be said personally". SHe said "you are a person who works , Adri and I are people who shine, therefore you are nothing and deserve attention from nobody". There is nothing to thank in this elitist comment
I honestly disagree, I know from the beginning that Chloe wasn't going to change, it's obvious, because when she was on screen during her "redemptive moments" her behavior was so counterfeiting, personally I believe that some awful people can change as long as you're facing consequences and perceptions, unless your self-deluded, delusional, irredeemable or entitled, you didn't reasonably explain why it doesn't excuse her, I'm ok with Chloe being like this but she came so far and yet so wasted, she could have been a good opportunity for Astruc to enhance the show, Chloe's ruined redeemable occasions are the exact reason the fanbase and show is downgrading, there are multiple characters who haven't changed, take Toy Story 3 for an example of this scenario, my main problems lies with how it was legitimately withdrawled, Chloe being irredeemable is ok, but I don't enjoy the mostly because of her character (she's annoying for the most) however the complicated part is that the writers keep constantly reminding the Chloe fans that she will never change, using the "we thought you'd change" -cleche, they keep inevitably rubbing it in the EI audiences that she can never change, they keep constantly exploiting, to hurt the audiences feeling, people criticizing them for being upset about her redemption is not helping, I'd file this as practical entitlement, I personally think some of you people should actually realize the BS Thomas Astruc and his shitcatastrophe crew are about, Thomas is an absolute manchild, he's practically blocked anyone who's made a point, or people who have suggested, defended or "opinion-ized" things for him have also been blocked, by this point Thomas is Entitled aswell, baffling that people are criticizing the Chloe fans for not understanding the plot and insulting Astruc and his crew, while in the process not trying to empathize/understand with the IE Chloe fans and insulting them aswell, who's behavior is even worse, seriously, you can't call someone delusions and ridiculous while defining those exact words, y'all are literally treating the Chloe fans like Monsters while being an Entitled Monster(viewpoint), Baffling that people are saying Chloe's Traumatic/Child Neglectful past isn't a good justification for her actions, but they're saying Marinette's Traumatic/Bullying past is a clear justification for her actions.
Im sorry to break it to you, but some people really don't change.
Dude not all ppl need to change this might be spoilers for MHA but I doubt Dabi/Touya is ever going to be redeemded, hell he's burning his entire body atm in the manga so yeah no redemption there, why do ppl always think every bad character in a show needs a redemption 😂 lije Queen Chrisaliys never got a redemption but I don't see MLP crying over that 😂 Istg ppl get so obsessed with pixels on a screen
@@margeryojije7862Thank You' for that BEAUTIFUL "essafied" speech you deserve a Nobel Peace Prize👏
First what i said was what I thought or believed , i never claimed anything closed to Chloe’s character being based off of “REDEMPTION” i said that Chloe was wasted, and I gave out my opinion, I never WANTED to change her, if you read more, you’d know i said Chloe being irredeemable is what her creator wanted for her - i implied that she’s supposed to be this way, or it was intentional, I did give subjective statements about Thomas, saying he was immature and biased because that’s how I’m seeing him *”In my eyes”*
I have no emotional investment in Chloe, I was speaking objective but mainly subjective, I felt like she was a wasted opportunity for Thomas.
When have I ever said that people should feel a certain type of way for bullies/Chloe? I never said people should feel a type of way for her because I want too, and your sarcasm really confuses me, you straight up brought up that topic.
I Never claimed I was disappointed about miracle queen, if you paid attention, you’d know I said “Chloe is clearly irredeemable, never have I mentioned that I was disappointed, I only described the type of emotions I was feeling, and I even said *“I’m guessing that’s the writer’s intention”*
People keep saying some people don’t want to change but, I only said I *”believed/religious”* that people can change, anyone as long as your punishment is by god or fate itself, that’s who I am, and hold on but you said “I want people to change but criticizing people for believing people can change” is kinda hypocritical or ironic in 2 passions
Your practically presuming what I think, I don’t care if Chloe changes I just think Thomas could have done more
When I looked back, I only read this message because I realized I needed to change my statements and word choice *”I still think this is a bad lesson to teach to kids”* I actually take that back, because I am learning new choices and new things” let me “remaster or redo that statement, I actually want to take that out, because this doesn’t need to be a a good lesson, *”Ik some people don’t want to change, but I still have belief that others can, this can be a reasonable lesson to teach to kids, I don’t think it’s a good lesson but I do think it’s a reasonable lesson to explain, because some people don’t change infact, this can help kids learn more about the world, and that there’s people like Chloe’s who don’t want to change or be different, i don’t believe this is a good lesson, but a helpful lesson, rational lesson and mature lessons.”* that’s my new statement because I’m learning new things and i will keep on getting more knowledge
You are saying I am one of “y’all” because I’m not a Chloe fan I’d prefer myself a semi-Chloe supporter
You need A DOSE THAT Vitamin R> REALITY because I’d think that Mr Or Ms high IQ’d Albert Einstein lookin ah- would know that this is reality, in reality people are Objective Or Subjective, i pretty sure the rationale as to why some people are bothered about Chloe, Is because how Chloe’s TERRIBLE behavior was portrayed, because it felt like the writers intentionally wanted to hurt the audience who had emotional Investments with Chloe so they don’t feel betrayed by Chloe but insulted by Astruc and his shitcotascophe crew” that’s probably why, and all you’ve really done is make yourself look toxic and showed little amount of immaturity with that usage of slurs, your practically sh*t talking people because they believe or feel a certain type of way about the show, as if you want them to change themselves
No, I never was going to say that “Marrinette and all the others characters should be punished too” i literally had 0 intention to type that, you just brought that up to either debunk a nonexistent prediction or to make your reply bigger, but I might be wrong, so if I’m wrong apologize for that misconception
I don’t care about your statement or opinion’s because they do not truly matter to me, your statement or opinion have obsolescence in my view
I never claimed that I wouldn’t watch it, infact MLB is a very entertaining show, but their can be something’s that may bother me.
@@ApplezJuicez If anything, it's a bad influence to convince children that anyone can be redeemed. Brad Bird certainly thought so when making The Incredibles.
@@margeryojije7862 Thomas Astruc bot💀
I initially wanted a hole to redeem herself back in season two but I never thought her abandonment justified her actions.
I feeled so sorry for Marinette because i was bullied myself in my old school 😔
It really makes my blood boil when people say chloes mom is to blame
Yes Audrey neglecting her may have been a reason she’s turned out like that but, Chloe is Chloe
She’s her own person her own character with her own decisions only SHE is to blame for what she has done.
Chloes mom has supported her bad behavior and will literally abandon you if you’re not cruel and mean so I do understand why she turned out like that BUT that doesn’t justify what she has done!! Period.
Same for Felix I hate it when people blame his dad for what happened ! Sure, he had an awful childhood but he still chose to make bad things ! For exemple : Adrien also had an abusive father but did he turned into a heartless sociopath ? No ! In my opinion none of them (Chloe and Felix) deserve redemption 😤😤😤
So Chloe's redemption arc is impossible, but Andre who broke the law (Being mayor) and gave bribes is cool? Same with Gabriel, their arcs show that Thomas's standards are broken and it makes it even more clear that what they did with Chloe is just not a funny joke
Let me remind you that Chloe was taking care of Andre, he is to blame for not even signing Chloe to a therapist (Something he should have done when Chloe's signals started)
And then he ditched Chloe to adopt Zoe, which in itself sounds like parent of the year
And then the narrative brazenly lied that Andre is the victim of his wife and daughter, even though those who watched the series from the first season saw Andre do something not because of his daughter, but of his own free will
They wanted to do Alador Blight, they did something that rather offends victims of violence, and it's weak
As a former scapegoat, I have the impression that Thomas is laughing in my face and I don't buy this narrative with her trauma, seriously, such "The owl house" showed trauma so well that miracolous seriously looks like something that laughs at you
The way I see it, Thomas Asscheek hated that people were still holding out hope for Chloe's possible redemption and made it his mission to make her as irredeemable as possible just out of spite. He doesn't have a creative bone in his body and only kept this terrible show running because of the sappy drama and the fact that the plot makes almost no progress across 4 seasons. Truly an awful show, but it's kind of like a train wreck that you just can't look away from because you have to see just how much worse it can keep getting.
I'm glad Adrien finally ended his friendship with Chloe and I bet that once everyone finds out they will hate her, maybe even have her banned from politics and from her running mayor
Did Adrien end it of his own free will, or did he do it because Marinette pretty much programmed him into doing what she tells him to do every bit as much as Gabriel does.
As that is classic abusive behaviour to isolate someone from other woman and from his friends.
Can Marinette even open her mouth about Chloe now without a stream of abuse flowing out ?
Speculation : What if Chloe is dyslexic and no one knows, and everything she said wasn't about privilege like Marinette claims but about her being unable to do it without admitting that to herself and others.
Chloe doesn't want to change, for whatever reason, but Marinette's reasons are just that Marinette's reasons, not Chloes. I don't think she even believes much of what she says.
Otherwise why show her in other lights at all. Why show her breaking down on a roof in tears, why show her having a tickle fight with Sabrina. Why show he sobbing her heart out in the back of the Limo.
There is more to Chloe than what she says and does and that is why she has fans = she's an interesting puzzle to some.
@@90lancaster he ended his friendship with Chloe by himself
@@90lancaster That statement that it is because she may be dyslexic is insulting. Dyslexia is when you mistake letters or numbers for something else. It may make it hard to speak to other people but it doesn't make you do what Chole has done. Look up things before you say them.
@@90lancaster .....SO yeah, anyway, Adrien ended his friendship with her own his OWN accord after giving her MANY chances to correct her behavior.
In a leaked episode, she forcefully took her father's place as mayor after he resigned from his position. She made a deal with Monarch to get herself akumatized into Queen Mayor so that he can give her the powers of the miraculouses to abuse her authority. In the end, Chloe got deakumatized after her defeat and she is stripped from her position as mayor and her father finally disciplines her. Audrey Bourgeois takes Chloe away to New York on a private jet for good (and Andre has already divorced her in a previous leaked episode by this point and putting Zoe under his custody only before renouncing his position as mayor so it's not like Audrey has any reason to return back to Paris.)
In the leaked season 5 finale, Ms. Bustier becomes the new mayor. Yea, there is ZERO chance that Chloe will ever become the mayor of Paris again.
I have a similar experience as marinette in G6 when I liked a boy and this is totally relatable, the bully locked me in a belcony (using a trolley school bag from another person) near the classroom for my next class, WITH MY CRUSH. She made such a large racket that the whole class was attracted to the noise. I've reported her to the deans but it didn't work, and for the next few years she is annoying me until she was transferd to another school. Chloe reminded me of her and yes, I agree that chloe isn't redemptable
I honestly thought in season 3 that chloe MAY become a good person
but BOY WAS I WRONG!
she dosent deserve to be forgiven. I am glad Adrien finally saw through her and realised what a big brat she is
Bro this is literally what I was ranting about the whole show finally someone talked about this!!! U just got a new sub 😀
If there’s one thing that episode taught me, it’s that there are various ways to defeat toxicity, and one of them is avoidance or ignorance…
You know what's funny about Derision. It makes Mr. Pigeon 72 look even worse on Marinette's end.
Please explain i don't understand what you mean.
Yep! True.
Explain in detail. I'm lost?
Basically for those who didn't understand,in Mr.Pigeon 72 Marinette was perfectly fine with falling in the pool with Adruen.
@@assiaelkhayate-sl8hubecause it wasn’t a date. Pairing a date with the pool triggered the event. That’s the point.
I never thought she would go that far. Now we know why Marinette stammers a lot near Adrien was because of her first heartbreak from Kim and the trauma she had to go through that Chloe caused.
Adrien didn’t know but now he knows and ended his friendship with Chloe. He chose Marinette over Chloe’s friendship.
I knew Chloe would end up all alone one day because her attitude is beyond selfish like her mom. Seeing people suffer is her entertainment but to us it’s not. She really can’t redeem herself. She thinks she has power over everything but we don’t need power to fight, it’s support and determination that gives us strength to take back everything from abusers.
In the end, she lost everything. She’s the one who is utterly ridiculous because she has no sense or morality, maturity, or awareness. She knew Lila was a liar but chose to team up with her, at the cost of Sabrina ending her friendship with her. Chloe lost everything and there’s no repair because the damage is already done. She said it herself, she doesn’t care about forgiveness but eventually she will o e day and no will forgive her. Adrien gave her multiple chances but she blew it off. There’s no going back. Every villain she teams up with like Monarch and Lila, they use her as her pawn, not to help her get what she wants.
From the moment that I started watching I could relate to Marinette. In my opinion they really captured the way that trauma can come out sometimes. I really could feel marinettes anxiety and panic, although I've never been bullied.
My sister was an a hospital recently, and I don’t use that as an excuse to bully people
Derision hit me so hard. I have severe anxiety caused by a traumatic event, not unlike Marinette. Except I go into psychogenic seizures when I’m reminded or triggered. It’s caused me to avoid all sorts of things, just like Marinette. Seeing Adrien stand up for her like that felt like he was standing up for me too. Stop victim blaming.
There are so many elements that make a person who they are, parentage is just one of them. Genetics, personal desires, past experiences. At the end of the day, Chloe has made her decisions. She has been given so many chances to change, but she never took any of them genuinely. There comes a point where a person has to take accountability for their own actions. I don’t blame my parents or my traumatic experiences for everything I do wrong.
First off, I am so sorry you went through that. No one deserves to undergo that kind of trauma.
I adore the way you explained this and I'm glad the episode actually resonated with you as someone who has experienced something similar to Marinette.
A lot of Chloe stans seems to lack empathy, so I hope highlighting this comment will help them understand the bigger picture.
I do agree with you on that. Chloe made her choice and now she’s paying the price for it
@@MiraculouslyLazy Chloe stans seems to lack empathy? Because they like a FICTIONAL CHARACTER? You call them psychopath because they love a FICTIONAL CHARACTER?
Also wtf is the bigger picture? Is it Chloe being an abuser? Is it Chloe's backstory doesn't justify her actions? Is it peoples like Chloe exist?
No sh*t Sherlock.
I have no idea who’s worse. Marinette for stalking, getting extremely jealous of other girls for talking to “her” Adrien, teamed up with Chloe to humiliate with Kagami for being with Adrien, etc or Chloe, who bullied others for no valid reason, teamed up with Hawkmoth in the ending of season 3, etc.
The double standards of the fandom :
Me : Chloe bullied her classmates because she didn’t receive enough love from her mom and betrayed ladybug because she was manipulated by Hawk moth and felt abandoned by her
The fandom : Idc that’s not an excuse she’s still a horrible person !
Me : Felix tried to SA ladybug and betrayed her for absolutely no reason by giving all the miraculouses to Gabriel which caused many damages in season 5
The fandom : He is like that because of his father !
Me : What ???? 🤨
Chloé isn’t a Senti, she had freewill from conception. Felíx literally did what he did to survive.
@@SymbolOfPeace8 If Chloe was a male it would be ok with y’all
💯💯💯
@@emmakaram9490 his gender has nothing to do with anything nitwit.
@@SymbolOfPeace8 This UA-cam who created this video is literally defending Thomas astruc
Goodbye, since no one in this fandom actually watched the series in detail.
I'm not going to argue because this fandom is toxic af
I mean, bullying is abuse so....
"Bullying" is too simple a term to use for such matters. When people think of "bullying" they might think of harassment, name-calling, and the occasional hitting. It was important to hammer home the word "abuse" so the seriousness of Chloe's actions can be understood and people can stop trying to push it under the rug.
@@kainightshade5033 OK in that case Marinette is guilty of "Emotional Abuse" & "Physical Abuse" herself. & Like Chloe has also tried to kill people for little or no reason. (Like throwing a Car at civilians as she was "angry") Which seems somewhat outside the remit of the akuma effect on her to me.
She was also only mildly annoyed that Kaalki murdered hundreds of people on her say so.
@@90lancaster Mkay, so Ladybug has never thrown a car or other projectile at civilians. If you saw that, give me the name of the episode. Also, give me the names of episodes where Marinette in her civilian form or superhero form has emotionally or physically abused anyone.
P.S Defending herself from an attack or calling Lila out on her shit doesn't count.
5:20 you are right at this point, I only hate one question (no hate for you btw) in zombiez zu her teacher got a gift, but what did chloe get?
U do know this is the writers trynna write Chloe up. No where in the past was Chloe's relationship with Marrienette ever portrayed or alluded to have been this abusive. It's an utter retcon of past events established. Marrienette also never reacted like someone who got bullied like this. Infact how does Chloe bullying ever make Marrienette stalk and be creepy and obsessive towards Adrien? I would get if she stalked Chloe secretly just to get back at her or to steer clear of her pranks, but that isn't what happened at all. And nowhere in the past has Marrienette ever been reserved towards Adrien coz of the prank Kim and Chloe supposedly pulled on her. Infact she fell for him after he gave her his umbrella lookin all cool. Why did she never question his motives back then?
It's mindblowing how people are falling for this stupid logic. Same leap of logic when they introduced Zoe out of nowhere to try to make fans-of-good-writing-and-sense choose that mary-sue over Chloe. It's disgusting how they will ruin their own story to make this happen.
It is hard to deny the fact that chloe had several moments that saw her trying to change for the better(especially in season 2) but the moment the season 3 finale aired all of chloe character development was thrown out the window making those redeemable moments of chloe pointless that is why people support chloe instead of hating her how she was written starts off as a bully over time displays some good qualities and then prooceed to go back to being a bully but 10x times worst.
Me personally Mari’s backstory should have came up in the earlier seasons. Now that we know that Mari’s stalking isn’t just a joke, it should have been a character Arc for her so she can actually have develop and make her have a healthy relationship with Adrian and not just an obsessive one. It been like 5 seasons and I don’t really care if she develops anymore because my patience is gone.
And for Chloe I think she is the best character ( seasons 1&2 ) because at the time she was interesting.She had a backstory that explains her behaviors.Even if Chloe was never meant to be redeem I still wish she was more relevant to the plot. Because her whole Arc seemed like a big waste of time to me.
Im pretty sure the stalking thing was normally just a joke but after seeing fans being disgusted they made a while arc to excuse her actions. Pretty bad move in my opinion.
I think they needed to introduce soquline first for that to happen
@@assiaelkhayate-sl8hualso the episode is in explanation, not a justification
@@assiaelkhayate-sl8hu😂😂now I know how terrible the writers are for being inconsistent with their own morality of the story.
I likes it more when Chloe was a more complex character, she was still a bully, but she had some moments when she actually did surprisingly nice things, not everyone has to be pure good or evil, but now they just trying to make as horrible as they can, the show just got boring in general, it’s like characters never change there
I agree that Chloe doesn’t deserve to be a hero, but what they’re doing with her character now is ridiculous (utterly ridiculous)
Plus, I absolutely hate how characters like Felix, who used lies and manipulation to ruin his cousin’s life, get a redemption arc, but Chloe doesn’t deserve one
People can change, this episode is literally a flashback over a year ago
At least Chloe's English VA is nice... I feel for Chloe stans/fans who wanted Chloe to be redeemed and do good. If only the other characters could put the effort to try and help Chloe steer in the right direction, learn the error of her ways. Chloe couldn't be all that bad despite how the writers make her as... Sadly, Chloe is just created to be hated (by Thomas and/or others on the show). It'd been best if Thomas never grant Chloe a Miraculous in the first place if she wasn't gonna be redeemed... Queen Bee was cool and Chloe once resisted an Akuma/Hawkmoth at one point but was it genuine or was it for her selfish reasons? It a shame the people (her classmates, especially Adrien) she once knew have decided to abandon her. Her character is now sadly a mess and I guess it's best if Chloe disappears... unless she somehow finds enlightenment and learn from her mistakes and try to be a better person. I won't give up on Chloe no matter how the writers would/will portray her as in future episodes/season(s). I hope Chloe gets genuine redemption down the road... She NEEDS help... She NEEDS SOMEONE to help her see the light, see the error of her ways... Is Chloe perfect? NO. Neither are the other characters... If Marinette or Adrien or anyone care enough to give Chloe another shot and help her, that'd be great. Otherwise, it's best for the characters to move on without Chloe. Then someone else may take her place and be worse than her... You can't have the protagonist without the antagonist... To all the fans of Chloe, I HOPE she gets redeemed for your sake, but it's up to Thomas and the writers on that... We'll see how he portray Chloe in future episodes... Have a Miraculous day, everyone and feel free to add your two cents/opinion(s).
You're totally right.
FOR REAL everyone is trying to defend her like she deserves a redemption arch. LIKE NO! SHE DOES NOT
I swear half of the miraculous fandom loves Chloe and HATES mari because she doesn’t get consequences for her stalking actions but chloe literally never gets any consequences either so it’s so stupid
Sorry for bad grammar lol I’m trying to listen to the video while writing 💀
I don't know, but maybe if Chloe is well "Chloe" that makes some sense, where as with Marinette you have this Klutz, emotionally blind girl who lives in a cloud of pink bubbles, but even Rose got that one line that "explained her perfectly" why she's human bubblegum incarnate. She is intentionally bolstering the positive so she doesn't sink under the weight of the negative, she's actually a bit deeper than just a fluffy ditz, even the Kwaicore genre of her band make a crazy kinda sense as it uses positive lyrics and bright colours and costumes with the heavy rock subtext and screamed lyrics to represent the undercurrent of darkness and pain which is the looming menace of her own likely death at a young age Kitty Section become a deeper thing by that alone.
With Marinette what we get is Marinette is a ditz and Ladybug is super serious (mostly) and yet Ladybug has this great tactical mind (supposedly) and yet at the same time she's clearly winging it.
It doesn't really make a lot of sense, it's like she's being performative and "playing the role of ladybug" when she's still Marinette quietly freaking out on the inside.
But Thomas doesn't show her like that often, instead he treats her like Ladybug is super competent, yet if she is, why is Marinette such a klutz ?
There is also the other issues the show avoids for example. When Chloe was Class President when she could be bothered she could get what the class wanted as she had the power to do so, so it was in their best interest to keep her sweet, and Chloe got the ego boost of being "Girl in Charge" but it looks like she actually did the job, well at least got Sabrina to do it anyway.
Marinette And Alya do exactly ZIP until it benefits them, sure one can say Chloe is the same, but at least she seemed to do "something" and had the potential to get things done.
She's not even got Damocle's trust enough to not have him expel her TWICE.
But then the whole show has to twist reality into new shapes to allow the characters to act in the ways convenient to the plot. You can't actually do the things Damocles or Bustier does "legally" Heck both of them have done things on the show you get jail time for, which is kinda nutty to think "OK which people should be in Jail now" it's quite a lot.
But it's like why didn't Fu immediately take Adrien's Miraculous away after Syren as he should have.
Or why didn't Cat Noir elbow his way into the process of picking holders once he knew who fu was.
He didn't he just let Ladybug dictate to him, and so eventually broke their partnership, and also showed he's not really responsible.
Which doesn't work when you also have Marinette on the show saying that she expects Cat Noir to save her when she gets akumatised (and boy did that happen / nearly happen a silly number of times) which is as much of a re-write as Kwamibuster was and as much as Chloe being that bad is.
As previously the idea was that Ladybug should NEVER get akumatised or it's the end of the world like situation, and instead Marinette tells Luka she's pretty much expecting it to happen.
Oh well Luka is out of the country now so he can be on Ghostforce for his Cameo now I guess.
I'm sorry but no matter how many times I watch this episode, I still only see it as a cheap (yet sadly effective) attempt of justifying Marinette's obsessive and exaggerated behaviors up to that moment in the show. You know, basically the thing that we as an audience could criticize out of her. This episode was Thomas and co. screaming to the audience "DONT YOU DARE TALK BADLY ABOUT MARINETTE AGAIN".
Which imo, sucks. Honestly this show always had a problem when it comes to how to balance character flaws. But this episode basically painted Marinette as a flawless victim, and thats the lowest way to justify a character, specially after 4 SEASONS.
Don't even make me talk about how this chapter doesn't make any sense chronologically wise. It only paints everyone that knew Marinette AND Chloe in the past even WORSE.
Chloe is a lost cause, not as a character, but in writing. Thomas and Co. Truly just gave up on her and that's it. No turning back. The fact that people really just eat up this excuse of making Chloe go from just a cartoonish bully that most other characters didn't even take seriously to this horrible monster that did so many wrong things in the past yet no one in the show seems to even remember that, just shows the lack of actual analysis that this fandom has.
But I will always criticize this episode for what it is: cheap brownie points for Marinette and make her immune to any kind of criticism in her private life. Cus suddenly she is now a bullied, victim of abuse so therefore if you criticize her now you are diminishing a character that represents a survivor of bullying.
This episode just proved something: Thomas Astruc will go to any length to make Marinette be the golden, tragic child yet forever in the right, at the expense of any secondary character.
I don't think liking Chloe is wrong, after all villains are important when it comes to stories as they move the plot forward and create interesting situations. Liking a character =/= approving their actions/personality.
That being said, I don't really like Chloe myself, imo she's just annoying and I don't enjoy episodes that are centered on her
and honestly this is why i like fanfiction more than the show sometimes - th*mas took Chloe way too far now. She had been on such a good arc that it just crashed and burned. i feel like each episode makes me hate someone who was my favorite character in the beginning
PROPS TO YOU FOR CENSORING TH********MAS
I'm surprised that the fandom still supports Chole and blames it on her mommy issues and the screenwriters for her actions. Once upon a time, I thought she would redeem herself when she 'got' the Bee miraculous, but that was back in season two. After season three I lost hope in her redemption. I am actually surprised at how long she withstood this abuse, sorry but there is nothing else to call it, and this episode only confirmed how bad Chole was.
I like Chloe as "A Queen Bee" she's honest in who she is. More than someone who lives in a Bakery is.
@@90lancaster Marinette is honest in who she is. Chole is not. She is only trying to be good for her idol, not herself. Marinette is. Chole bullied Marinette for YEARS, and as someone who was bullied, I can relate to Marinette. Chole is the definition of dishonest.
@@ShadowRider711 No She's Tactless, she can be dishonest when she's doing her crocodile tears act before she resorts to do as I say or "I'll call Daddy", but I don't think she's that dishonest really, she doesn't really try to hide what she does, she admitted she pulled the Fire alarm for example.
Chloe is a terrible person but she is consistent in the way she is I feel, or she was before Thomas decided to up the ante.
As for her motive, It isn't to impress Ladybug 'as such' it's more to do with Chloe being desperate for Validation ideally from her Mother, but Ladybug will do as another female authority figure to her.
That can also be seen in how one of the few people who can get the best out of her was Miss Bustier. Even if she did go about it in the wrong way.
Strangely Chloe acted like she wanted to be chastised for messing with Marinette's gift... but yeah remember that scene there is a lot more going on in that episode Zombizou than I think has even yet now been resolved.
@@90lancaster bruh get a grip because you know damn well if you were treated the same way Marinette was by chloe you wouldn't be making excuses for her sorry ass 💀💀💀
Any single plus point left for Chloe disappeared after this episode.
She's so much disgusting.
She has that abusive genetics of her equally abusive mother.
The way she treats Sabrina.
The way she treats her Father.
She's just the worst!!!
Lila is a master manipulator who uses others for her advantage like Scar, while Chloe is narcissistic like Gaston.
And both are villains.
And now they're working together they're even horrible.
The only thing is while everybody in Marinette's class hates Chloe they r blinded by Lila.
Even Zoe has given this half sister of her's a piece of her own mind.
Bullies like Chloe seek sympathy justifying their actions.
That's the difference between Marinette and Chloe.
Marinette doesn't justify her flaws.
Also remember even after she became Queen Bee her behaviour towards others didn't change.
Her craving for popularity as a heroine ultimately became the obvious.
She couldn't control her urge to be in control.
While Tikki had a confidence boost in Marinette and Plagg gave Adrien courage to speak his mind and break free, none of that influence seem to affect Chloe's behaviour. And she gets excused no matter how horrible her actions r as she's the Mayors daughter.
She keeps on hurting others with no remorse.
The only redemption she might hv is if her father looses the elections and nobody gives a tuppence about her.
Absuive genetics💀Generational abuse is a thing, but it's not because genetics.
I hate how people compare Marinette with Chloé by saying "Marinette is a pick me, she's annoying, she's a stalker, she was awful with Chloé when she was ladybug" this makes my blood boil, and anyway Marinette is not a stalker in my opinion, she's more an obsessive person. If Marinette ever ends in court of law they'll probably recommend her therapy and her parents would get a fine and have to research gabriel if he decides to sue them
Anyway besides the extremely obsessive things she has done(which I don't excuse) she's really an amazing person, she always helps others, and when she does something bad she actually realizes it and always apologizes (like with Kagami) I'll never stop defending her
Marinette is obssesive and not a stalker? That did change a lot of things. Here, a list of things that change:
@@Mebro-m6d it changes a lot
A stalker does way worse than what Marinette had done and even though she did some illegal things like stealing and entering in Adrien's house without him knowing it (which I DON'T justify because they were absolutely wrong) her intensions weren't malicious and the thing is up to Adrien, from what I understood Marinette revealed him how obsessive she can be and he seems to not be bothered by this but if he's bothered by what Marinette did he can sue her but it's not like they would put her in prison, since she's a minor her parents would have to research Adrien (or his father because he's a minor too) with money and nothing more than that and probably the court of law would tell her parents that she needs and should get therapy
A stalker is always an obsessive person but an obsessive person is not always a stalker
@@pinkysunset9240 I know that stalking and obbsesion is different. I mean, realizing that Marinette is not stalker, will not make peoples change their mind. Peoples who don't like Marinette will not going to start love Marinette. Peoples hate character because of what they done, not the name of the thing they done.
@@Mebro-m6d I don't want to force anyone into like Marinette and I'm not saying everyone must love her people can think whatever they want, I just don't like when people keeps saying she's a stalker because she's not
I’m just disappointed they didn’t go through with her redemption arc because she could have been so much more! It was all right there and it could have brought a more interesting dynamic with Zoe! In the episode despair bear I could see glimpses of possible redemption and it excites me not because I think she has to have redemption but because it could have brought a different take on things, as I am honestly getting tired of the stereotypical bully! I am not a Chloe stan, but season 3 did disappoint because it did kind of feel like they just chucked whatever small fragments of interesting character growth out the window! Honestly, I would be fine with her staying as an antagonist, just make her actually have a more complicated motive besides being the stereotypical bully. Evil or not you don’t want to question why they are even there any more! I am not trying to excuse her horrible twisted actions, I am just disappointed in her. Anyways, great video as always!❤️🤩
This is also a fair take! Personally, I still believe she was trying to please Adrien in Despair Bear, but I totally get what you mean with it seeming like there was a glimmer of good inside of her.
Thank you for watching Kaleigh!!!
Maybe Chloe needs to be relocated to a new TV show, like when Worf was put on Deepspace Nine. Maybe even Luka too.
@@margeryojije7862 tbh tho most chloe stans ( like me ) only fanfiction the chloe we like because she cannot be saved with how terrible she was made. and even tho chloe now is a bad person mental abuse is a totally valid excuse for behavior. expecially when both her parents are bad people.(in season 1 and 2 tho) other seasons arent valid behavior
because at that point she was more toxic than being saved. but u are so right they changed her to be a killer which uspet fans smh.
And even if Marinette was also the worst person ever you don’t do that to someone you don’t act like that
I was more bothered by the teachers behaviour, knowing the problems they had with bullying in France around the time the show debuted their attitude towards Bullying remains rather bizarre, and well The teachers would be committing serious criminal offenses several times on the show, which I know drives some teachers watching it completely up the wall. KInda like actually police officers trying to watch a cop show.
3:26 THE 69 IN THE BACKGROUND IM CRYING 😭
Honestly I wish Chloe wasn’t hated by Thomas like it doesn’t make sense that she had the best redemption arc she’s a bad person I can say that but the writers literally made Chloe a 15 year old girl being un redemptional and be a terrible person in her redemption arc she was trying I’m not saying that Chloe shouldn’t be hated it’s just that the writing doesn’t make sense also hating on marrinete isn’t unreasonable I mean I get she has trauma BUT SHES A LITERAL STALKER she broke laws I know Chloe has done bad things and Marrinete did too but keep in mind people can change Also keep in mind because of Marrinetes obsession with Adrien she lost the Miraculous THE MOST POWERFUL ONE also I know that Chloe made sides with hawk moth but keep in mind she’s a child she can be easily inspired by something that gives her what she wants
So basically what I’m saying is that nobody can be irredeemable neither Marrinete nor Chloe I just don’t get why everybody justifies Marrinetes actions but not Chloe also I know Chloe did bad things but I won’t accept anything bad about Chloe after season 3 because after that all of Chloes bad actions were so obvious that it was hate from Thomas
So true. I just lost it when I saw this video's thumbnail.It's true that Chloe got too far but it's obvious that after season 3,all Chloe's actions are just forced by this shitty asstruck
@@assiaelkhayate-sl8hu fr even Thomas asstruck said that GABRIEL IS REDEEMABLE a 30+ old that would sacrifice his son to save his wife and he did it 2 TIMES WITHOUT REMORSE
Spoiler
And marrinete sat down with Gabriel saying that it’s ok and you can just stop and she forgave him tho he took her miraculous either way. BUT HES STILL REDEEMABLE
finally someone who got a brain fam i finished the show and wanted to see vids on this show and just constantly see this shmucked bombaclat called 'cyrus the great' and one of his shit videos "in defense of chole bourgeios" where this guy is just completely yappin bullshit with absoulute terrible points that make no sense. and i ain't understand this chole glaze in this fandom like the ridiculous utterly ridiculous shit is funny but like she ain't allat like ppl are buggin. how do ppl think marientte a worse person than chole is jus beyond me i can't. and unrealated sidenote it seems like most of these fans don't even enjoy the show like fam it was never intended to be some story masterpiece to begin wit it was always a goofy fun show to laugh wit like i can't stand these ppl fam
This might be a bit controversial, but the problem isn't that Chloe's character is beyond redemption. It's that the producer gave away the biggest spoiler on her character development. By declaring her irredeemable, we had nothing to look forward to when it came to Chloe's actions. Because of this episode, we finally understood Marinette's behaviour towards her love interests, but are we honestly surprised by Chloe's past actions? I lost my moment of 'Wow, she's beyond saving!' Just 'cause I read a tweet a few years ago.. (I still love his work.. and I'm also staying away from personal Twitter accounts of writers/producers.)
Everyone asking why Gabriel is redeemable and Chloe the real question is why Plagg is ok and Chloe isn’t I know he is way more likesble and overall a nice guy and his sass if cool but in the episode style queen it’s stated he killed the dinisiars and sunk Atlantis in the episode miracle queen he previously called the dinosaurs wusses and in deflagration it’s stated he did it on purpose because they made fun of him so bullying Simone all her life making people miserable and selling out your city to an evil terrorist for power is worse than destroying an entire planet or more appropriate making it unlivable as well as an island of humans and feeling no remorse for it calling them wusses and casually brushing it off explain.that to me
It shocks and amazes me how people still defend her and overlook her actions saying thst she has done not that much wrong
Maybe it could work if they show us this story before "damnation arc" and before season 5 episode 14.
She hasn’t and idc 😹
“Blame the sin not the sinner.”- ranking of kings
honestly it feels like they portrayed her even worse to try to stamp out any of the redeemable aspects or at least complex in the past even though theway mari reacted to chloe in origin was bad but never hinted at it being THIS bad. so part of me is frusterated that they made chloe even worse...mostly because it kindof negates alot of the lessons or aspects in the earlier seasons.....
but another part knows this is what we have now and people trying to defend her after this episode need to accept this IS now a canon part of her.
though the fuck didthey do to kim? kim ws getting better and him refering to chloe like that infront of his girlfriend when he has been over chloe since season 1 felt WEIRD.
though i'm even more confused because it feels like some stuff contradicted this in previous episodes.
but its just so bad how can people defend thischloe after this
Now, I still like Chloe, but before some people start attacking me because of it- I only want to know more about her character arc, instead of her getting attacked in every single episode. Season 2 still holds onto me, so this episode still doesn’t make me dislike her. Now don’t get me wrong, I sympathize with Marinette all the way, but there were some points that the episode made that confused me or was a downright hurtful message.
Like that whole scene with Mylene and Rose irritated me because just because you were raised to a mother who neglected her, doesn’t mean they should move on from it the same way.
And then there’s the finger pointing on Chloe because of Marinette’s stalker antics-
@@margeryojije7862 First of all, I know that she is not all about redemption, just about bringing akumas. But you seem to forget that Jeremy Zag is the one who wrote season 2 and made Chloe sympathetic, of course Thomas didn’t like that because he has an unhealthy obsession with her and smeared it all out in season 3, just to rub it in to Chloe likers and Chloe Defenders that she’ll never change. It’s true, she did have everything she wanted by her poor excuse of a father. But she wanted to have her mother’s love, something that she can’t buy with money. If you are so pressed up about how I feel about certain characters, then move on.
@@margeryojije7862 MF did you just copy and paste the same argument?
@@Till_is_alive_trust it's a bot
@@Till_is_alive_trust being sympathetic is not incompatible with being an ass. Chloe's behavior from season 2 to 4 is consistent, she never understood how her arrogance and dishonesty were wrong, even less they were the way to fix Audrey's behavior
@@margeryojije7862 Well, this writing is horrible, I don't feel betrayed by Chloe, I feel disappointed in the show itself, this is not how you write a betrayal arc, now it feels like the show raised out expectations and then burned them to the ground, which it does a lot.
You can't just make people sympathetic to someone and then expect them to hate them, this is not how it works. Sympathy can't be ruined so easily, even with some lame excuse about some Marinette's trauma from the past. Why didn't anyone bring that up before? Probably because it was another poorly written excuse to make us hate Chloe even more (Zoe is one of those lame excuses too, because she literally appeared out of nowhere)
Yep, you’re right, she’s nutso!
On further reflection on this I really think you can push Kim, Marinette and Chloe to the side, ignore Socqueline and Sabrina and shake your head at plot inconsistencies and such. You will be left with one thing which is how "in a bubble" Paris is now, in Season One it felt more like Paris, now Paris feels more like a city state with the office of the president & other politicians not even existing. The Mayor doesn't even really have a P.A.... (he really should).
Looking at What Nadia said in Action she seems to imply that there is so much of a stranglehold on control that no one can say anything which is why the Mayor seemed to be able to get away with anything, and why Chloe wasn't prosecuted for endangering a train etc..
I guess allowing Chloe to be a terror to the teachers (now) is one of those things the show just does.
But as I often point out it is going to look really strange to someone who discovers the show in Season 4 or 5 and then starts from the beginning they will see Chloe doing nothing much to anyone.
I can see why people accuse all of this to it being just Thomas poisoning the well, and making it harder for someone else to use Chloe effectively, which is really disrespectful to the new writers after he's being made step back. He's basically Jake Skywalkered Chloe and well, at least he didn't have her plane crash.
Ironically as much as some people see Chloe only as a surface issue... there is still the undertone that she's a girl who's had everything taken from her (somewhat unfairly) & that actually does leave somewhere to go with her.
For example Luka still has not met her properly.
That said I do think they took the best written character in the show and turned her into the worst written one just to be petty to the people who like her, and as a secondary reason perhaps Marinette's behaviour got so bad they had to raise Chloe's Level of villainy to keep her above Marinette.
But No Thomas I don't forget Marinette fed her to her Mother and encouraged Chloe to be bad to bond with her (reprehensible mother) Chloe had a good(ish) role model in Ladybug and because she selfishly didn't want to deal with her she shoved her onto Audrey not caring that the cost of that to Chloe is her personal happiness, all her relationships and maybe even her soul.
That is as bad as telling someone to date someone who you know was violent to their previous partner.
So yeah by forcing Chloe onto Audrey it is Marinette that looks bad, as people need to remember Chloe is an obnoxious narcissistic Brat with Mommy and Daddy issues in Season One, she's someone who is trying her darnedest to be better and they just take it away from her. That makes the show look cruel.
The show isn't very nice to Kagami either but at least it doesn't explode all her personal relationships completely when it does.
Alya at least "cares enough" about Kagami to tell Marinette off when she's being cruel to her, but we have no idea what Alya things about what Marinette did to Chloe, she may never have told her, and Alya made a snap judgement about her "team mate" and never gave her a chance and that to be honest low key disgusts me.
it is why this show sometimes give the impression it's racist against the blondes. Though what the heck I am supposed to make of their endless forgiveness for 'Mr. Genocide' & Matricide Felix.
Yeah this show is happy to demonize a teenage bratty girl with like 1 friend who gets treated like crap by most people now, but who actually was kinda sweet on instagram, you could see she was "trying" to unlearn her bad behaviour. No one cared to help her with that though.
It is the cynicism of the production and the way they did it,, I don't mind Chloe falling due to circumstances, neglect and missunderstandings I do however object to "Season Two" Chloe being needlessly Character assassinated as Thomas has no idea how to write a sympathetic antagonist, and wants to make excuses for Marinette's attrocious behaviour in a very lazy way
I.e. by saying "Look Chloe's still worse".
She beats up her partner and dehumanises and emasculates him. I've read a lot of Fan fiction and anyone writing based on Season 1 & 2 would have Marinette go ballistic if someone did anything like that to Cat Noir, but the show instead dehumanised and ruined Adrien too just to make Marinette look good, and then their only excuse is the rather pathetic one of
That was Cat Noir not Adrien.
So yeah Miraculous abusing the abused kids then repeatedly saying they are not abused they are privileged is just well more abuse. Fine if you want to give your characters challenges,
But I would use a Star Trek analogy about what Data discovered about William Riker's innate personality type.
That is what the show forgets, and changes out of short term convenience.
If you need a character to be a jerk, then why not use Nathaniel as he's already acknowledged to be a bit of a jerk.
This show, I swear will only make sense when it's eventually rebooted and written without Thomas having any involvement.
You are making fixing Chloé her VICTIM’s responsibility? Get the f out of here!
@@SymbolOfPeace8 No I am treating Ladybug as 'in loco parentis' & chiding Adrien for abandoning his "difficult" Childhood friend in favour of the new shiny things (the rest of the class).
Marinette wasn't a victim of more than mild irritation from Chloe until Thomas had a childish tantrum over it and totally re-wrote her character in Season 4 & 5.
Chloe is a brat, we barely knew why before but that was all she was, "a brat" now she's a homicidal lunatic.
Ladybug had the opportunity to deal with that to make her life and Chloe's better and to teach children a lesson about communication. Instead they had Marinette sulk do nothing, and then suffer the consequences. & hope we didn't notice that she caused the loose of her mentor and the decent of Queen Bee based on her jealousy over Kagami.
That the show had the blatant cheek to call her the "Best Miraculous Holder" every single time after she messes up to a huge degree make the show look like it is becoming a self-parody.
Chloe being a massive heel, is less of an issue on the show than Marinette's own personal failings are they are a bigger detriment to herself than anything Chloe did to her (pre-retcon).
Oh and we as of course invited to pretend to not notice that Sabine was aware of the bullying and did NOTHING about it so they also threw Marinette's parents under the bus wheels too.
All because she exposed her identity of being queen bee in front of everyone, which made it easier for Gabriel to influence her into becoming far worse than she was at the beginning.
Chloe could do this by herself, she never learnt values in judging people
@ANIMATIONLOVERBT she was doing just fine, until Gabriel filled her head with lies about Ladybug not trusting her to keep the bee miraculous, making her into a full time willing victim.
@@wc4606 ah she was filled by lies, and felt no remorse for this betrayal. She was culprit in the time she accepted and called all the heroes to give the ass their powers and to be above everyone. She only wanted power and gave it for granted
@@ANIMATIONLOVERBT still, if chloe kept her identity a secret, Gabriel wouldn't have been able to manipulate and influence her this easily. Now she wants Monarch to win, just to spite Ladybug.
@@wc4606 yes, and to please herself as usual
To me Chloe wasn't born evil as evident of her past with Adrian she is a result of bad parenting so I really can't hate her as much as I hate her parents. She got her spoilt side from her father, a man that couldn't even spend time with his own daughter and was too afraid to reprimand and instead rather get and buy her whatever she wanted.
She got her bratty side from her mother. Her mother is just a cruel heartless woman who can't even remember the names of her kids and genuinely does not give a dam about them and since she's the person Chloe looks up to the most well.... I can understand why she became the little gremlin herself. And altho her and Zoe grew up with the same mother, they were raised differently so I can't really compare the 2.
bad parenting that DID NOT LEAD her to reflect over elitism; the latter one is a choice of herself
@@ANIMATIONLOVERBT it actually does. Her mother is the very definition of an elitist. So if her mother, the person she seeks validation most from does it she would do it to just to without question just to be acknowledged by her. I'm not saying it excuses her because at the end of the day we are responsible for the choices we make but the end of the day Chloe is still their daughter and the fact that Chloe is the only one suffering while her mother and father get away with it scot free irritates me
@@Sky_901 Chloe has Adrien as an example she sees every day, she could reflect over why he has friends and she has no one. She bullied people also when her mom was far away, for 5 years, because she believed in elitism. And Andre could teach her how to respect rather thn spoil her
Some of these comments are not it at all. People really be reaching into the back rooms to find redeeming qualities in Chloe.
I saw someone speculating that marinette was manipulating Adrien into ending his friendship with Chloe.
Smh 🤦♀️
that's ridiculous--marinette went out of her way to include chloe and help her gain redemption in maledictator BECAUSE adrien expressed how he cares for chloe. despite everything, she accommodated for adrien's friendship with chloe and tried to see her in a new light. How the heck are some fans speculating that she's a manipulator of all things?!
looking back, there was so much wrong with that episode even tho it was an enjoyable one. I hated how adrien inadvertently guilt-tripped Marinette for being happy that her bully was leaving and it led to marinette blaming herself for chloe leaving for new york even tho it was NOT her fault. (I know he had no knowledge of the extent of chloe's bullying, but that still felt icky.) And the episode set up chloe with the potential to be a better person - only for the show to never follow through. False advertising smh
Yes, She did it on the stairs in season 5, and she did it again in Queen Banana not overtly but she does it by making her "views known" and suggesting that she expects people to do as she says.
Kinda typical Marinette behaviour though. She throws around negative comments and then makes it known she will be very upset with anyone who disagrees with her, kinda like Chloe bullied the heck out of Marinette and then said "if you object you will get the same" it's just a social dominance thing. With Adrien as the prize.
She does this with Adrien by telling him that any good he sees in others in only in himself.
She could just as easily have said the same about Felix, but weirdly she doesn't.. because Felix isn't "another girl" & Marinette is only really interested in keeping Adrien away from other girls.
Heck if Adrien invited Alya over to watch Art movies Marinette would be just as salty about it.
She has a very jealous & controlling personality.
@@90lancaster I think manipulated isn’t the best way to describe what Mari was doing. I think she was trying to protect Adrien from Chloe because she thinks Chloe is a very bad person. Personally, I think I’d do the same thing if my close friend/ crush was friends with the person who bullied me for years (I haven’t actually been in this situation before btw) I think she was just trying to give adrien advice. I do see your point though. This is all just my opinion and how I interpreted the characters. We all look at the world through different lenses after all. Have a great day/ night!
⚠️! DISCLAIMER!⚠️
This is all just my personal opinion, if you disagree please reply respectfully.
Pls don’t start WW3 in the comments
Why does the fandom love Chloe, i find no chance for her to become a good person
Same reason people love Q or Lore in Star Trek.
One word: Potential
@@sebastianaristizabal3871 i think you dropped this 👑
@@crust-wf7sw I dont give a shit if sjes irredemable or not, but she was abused by his creator to the point she ended with one of the most miserable endings if not the most in Miravulous, even worst than Lila or Gabriel, and she wasnt even used properly, she was just the Bully of Thomas childhood turn into character so Thomas would hate her own character and make everything to make her... this
@@sebastianaristizabal3871 thats why i said you dropped the crown? because i totally agree with you . chloe was so hated by him that he made the ep. derision. she was the only one to decline an akuma herself, almost got mayura's miraculous and even tried to help protect sabrina from an akuma but thomas just decided to make all of her development build up lost because he hates her so much.
I know that everything was written in, and I agree Marinette doesn't deserve to be hated, but why do you think people can't ignore canon after a certain point if they think the writing is bad?
Not to mention this was in the series Bible meaning This was planned since 2010….
Y’all better keep the same energy for Felix
As i do agree that felix has done some not okay things, the energy is not the same beacuse felix has had some character devlopment, and chloe just got worse.
@@anonymouslilies0898 You’re absolutely right. Let’s forget that Felix S/A Ladybug in his debut episode or that he stole his uncle ring. Let’s also forget that Felix stole every miraculous instead of asking Ladybug for help. And killing people temporarily? never heard of her. Oh and let’s forget that he stalked and kidnapped Kagami. Bc it’s ok since he gets “character development in the laziest way possible that doesn’t create plot at all. Oh yeah and let’s not forget to forget that Ladybug was traumatized by his actions.
@@Gigi-ok9sc Let's also not forget that Felix redeemed himself in the coming episodes. Let's also not forget that the reason he stole his uncle's ring and the miraculous was to get control of his life back! Let's also not forget that Felix did not sexually assault Ladybug, wtf are you on?! He tried to kiss her!! That is NOT sexual assault! It's called a child learning the implications of his actions by IMMEDIATELY receiving karma by way of punch in the face! Jesus, go learn the law before you start talking!
@@Gigi-ok9sc Never said forget. just saying hes better than chloe in some ways
@@kainightshade5033 Having a sob story doesn’t count as redemption, and trying to kiss someone without their consent and being visibly uncomfortable does count as s/a. And ok yea he stole his uncle’s ring to get control if his life, I was a little too harsh there, but did he have to steal all the miraculous and put ladybug through all that just bc he has “tragic backstory”?
Chloe almost committed murder on Marionette! And used Kim do it! No redemption arc for Chloe! At…All!!!!!!!!!
I’m glad the first Miraculous channel I subscribed to thinks the same way as I do. It’s insane how much people defend this character. If Marinette’s actions are problematic and is condemned for it, why cant it be the same for Chloe? Her actions are as damaging to a kid. Even after becoming Queen Bee, she never changed at all. It’s always been there. I dont ever say this at all to a villain but she’s never redeemable imo.
I just lovehowtheshow still tells us chloe is a bad person even in the world Paris special
No matter what Astruc throw at her, I will always be a Chloe Fan. I just hate Marinette. Plain asimple. Not only that but the Miraculous Team in Season 4 make me want to puke. Everytime I saw Ladybug, Chat Noir and 5 others heros, I wanted To puke. Can you tell me the difference between Rena Rouge, Carapace, Visperion, Vesperia, Ryuko, Pegase, King Monkey, Caprikid ? Absolutely nothing. They are all Nice, wants to be a Hero To help Ladybug, follow Ladybug order. They are all bland. They don't have goals. On the contrary of Chloe.
Chloe wants to be regnosize by her Mother and everyone she is exceptionnel, she feels useless, she feels unwanted. She knows everyone hates her but she can't stop herself To bully other because she wants attention. But she artracts bad attention because she bulies others and she knows that but can't stop herself because if she dosen't have attention, she is useless in her eyes. But when she became Queen Bee, she feels wanted and love. She has attention, thing that she wants from her mother since her life because every child wants to be love by the parents. But Audrey was never there, neglets her, abandon her and Andre, mispell her name everytime, Andre is never there for her To be a Dad, never developp a backbone for her. So Chloe became a Bully. Because Bully artracts people's attention. Because if she has attention, then she will make her mother return To Paris and finally.be with her.
She cares about herself, yes. But Chloe never became a hero for others, she became a Hero only To attract attention towards her and she will use that attention to make Audrey return To Her. She has a reason and a goal To be a Hero. The others no !
She is a bad person. But everytime she was on screen, she entertain me. I wanted to watch Chloe be a bully, I wanted To see Chloe. That was before Miracle Queen.
Queen Bee was totally something needed To that Miraculous Team where everyone is just a slave To Ladybug.
I really hate that Chloe stans are trying to excuse her actions and hate on Marinette. It feels like a double standard to me. Chloe has an absent mom that causes her to act mean, which is totally okay for Chloe stans, but when Marinette knows everything (although I’m using this term very loosely here) about Adrien because she was traumatized by Chloe’s behavior and Kim’s fake love, then it’s time to get out the pitchforks and torches. If you’re going to judge Marinette based on her trauma response, then you need to do the same to Chloe instead of blindly defending Chloe when she’s done worse things than Marinette.
I hate chl#e so much
Lmaoooo frrr and I love talking shit bout her too😂😂😂
@@starsshinesforever1425 You go to heaven
@@dewereldvansamenta4731 omg u wanna come wit me 🥰
@@starsshinesforever1425SAME, CHLOE SUCKSSS. MARI SOLOS
I wish they added Zoe in s2 so that they could build her character more because I really like her
I honeslty think Chloe never wanted to redeem in the first place, and just wanted to fake it for support. Chloe is the true defenetion of someone 'pure evil' she doesn't care about anyone but herself. I feel extremely bad for Marinatte, that if i were in the show. I'd stand up to her and tell her to knock it off. Chloe is a true abuser
The true abuser here is Thomas Astruc himself
I understand exactly how her character but I don’t support her actions of course she is a character and everyone around her got hurt but of course I have to disagree with some things such as comparing characters who’s mom did leave, and what people do need to understand is that Chloe was not just left by her mom but it was seen that her life was controlled by her mom and the people from Paris allowed her to be taken away with her abuser and manipulative mother to ‘teach her to be better’ or so and also the fact that her as a character could have been redeemed maybe not clearly all the way fixed but she could have become a better person. “She was given multiple chances to change she was even taught lessons!” Yes I do agree she was given chances and other things to help her but one thing is breaking out of the cycle of abuse, especially when people aren’t properly helping you throughout the journey to and exactly not teaching her right from wrong does not help. I am not excusing her poor behavior but I do have to say she is redeemable the narrators or Thomas more specially didn’t like her for her unkind nature like most and made sure she wasn’t redeemable or allowed to heal which is exactly why we don’t see much of her being redeemable and not only is it the fact that along side all of this her father allowed every single last bit of it, I know it may sound dumb or stupid but this is in somehow or some form neglecting a child. You may be wondering ‘neglecting a child is so much more than that because he cared for her why is that even needed to be said?’ I would like to let you know abuse comes in many different forms and allowing abuse to be accepted or tolerated just because you love a person doesn’t excuse it. Chloe’s father allowed her mother to abuse and manipulate her and control her life ( of course got her back ) but also allowed Chloe to run over his life and unlike the father he should be didn’t educate her or anything what so ever. So for one thing the real thing Chloe needed was to be educated and taught a lesson that would actually help her through her actions step by step but also to have a stable family. Another thing I would like to add is about Zoe being raised by her mother which is Chloe’s mom is because of not liking her mom didn’t allow her to actually be manipulated by her yes her and Chloe went through the same thing but obviously the difference between chloe and her is that Zoe was the favorite child which again leads back to bad parenting with favoritism and of course had compared to chloe more easier because unlike Zoe, chloe was cared for yes but she wasn’t liked or love by neither her father or mother. Of course I’m not trying to compare anyone’s trauma because they all matter but really if you do the comparison Zoe was much more healthy as a person and didn’t allow her environment to affect her but Chloe is nothing like Zoe and of course is spoiled cold hearted childish and truly just a child who just wants to be loved and treated the way she should have been from childhood, (again this doesn’t excuse her poor behavior). So it’s not really that she’s an unredeemable character it’s more like she’s a tragic and poor written character because none of the writer ever thought about her healed being behind her diseased heart. A person who she can be relatable too is a lot like pink diamond from Steven universe who is aimed to be a villain but really only ever wanted was to be happy and healed but unlike pd she did heal and was happy and much more stuff as well. I would explain more but it would probably be as long as a document and I’m tired but all I have to say is she is redeemable the only ones who aren’t allowing her to be is the people she’s around (Lila and her mom but as for other characters is more or so like they aren’t giving her the proper help-) and the writers (Thomas). Yes she is an abuser and her actions but people are allowed to change and heal from abuse and making her go with her mom to repeat the cycle of that abuse will and can push her to either being a full on villain or even commiting, so yes she can be redeemed and change if given the help and surroundings of people she really needs and plus a life awaking type lesson
Sometimes Chloe Bourgeois is even worse than Gabriel Agreste/Hawk Moth/Monarch. Gabriel might be a full-time supervillain and a manipulative terrorist but he's trying to steal the miraculouses of creation and destruction from Ladybug and Cat Noir only so he can revive his beloved wife, Emilie and create a perfect life for his family.
Chloe is just a spoiled brat who thinks her status as the mayor's daughter lets her do anything she wants without consequences. She is extremely mean to everyone, including people who showed her kindness and forgiveness such as Adrien or Ladybug.
Gabriel is doing his evil deeds out of love for Emilie, while Chloe is doing hers only out of selfishness.
@@grzegorzmizerski4187 You can switch "love for Emilie" to "selfishness" tho. Because it is what it is.
So you're telling me that an abused 14 year old who bullies people is worse than a terrorist who abuses his son and takes advantage of him and doesn't care about his mental health.
@@assiaelkhayate-sl8hu Well, season 5 made us all see Gabriel/Monarch in a much less sympathetic light, but during the previous four seasons, he truly cared about his son, though he couldn't actually show it. Besides, before becoming obsessed with the miraculouses of Ladybug and Cat Noir he was trying to steal them only so he can use their combined powers to revive his wife Emilie, both because he missed her so much and because though that it will make Adrien's life better.
I loved Chloe as a character and I still love her AS A CHARACTER. NOT AS A PERSON. SHE HAD THE CHANCE AND RUINED IT, SHE IS A BAD PERSON WHO WON'T PROBABLY CHANGE. BUT ISN'T IRREDEEMABLE LIKE THOMAS SAID. BUT SHE'S STILL A WASTED CHARACTER WHO COULD HAVE GITTEN BETTER BY BEING QB.
It’s not the Miraculous’s responsibility to redeem her or fix her.
I would like to know what Chloe's issue is with Birthdays one day, it seems to all date back to her 8th Birthday what ever it was that made her loose the plot.
Do you think the writers just did this episode to say that Cloe was irredeemable? This episode was in season 5 and they didn’t even set it up.
It's Thomas Astruc we're talking about and not an actually good content creator so they obviously did