It is always good to see people that give credit when credit is due way too many give the impression that they have done something that has never been done before.
I did enjoy the video! I use a very similar tool to tram my Mill. I also periodically break my Vise loose from the table still in the table and tram the vice to the table also. I really like that Atlas! I found using the carbide insert cutters they like to be under a consistent load. I was breaking the tip off of many inserts until I learned that they like a heavy cut. A heavy consistent cut. If you get it just right you'll get a heavy cut that breaks chips so that you don't have super long spirals that are Unbroken. I am running a South Bend heavy 10 with a 1 and 3/4 inch spindle bore. after my first year of running it really softly I realized just how heavy of a cut this machine can handle. Man now that you have a Mill and a lathe you're a veritable gunsmith!
Lol, thanks man! Good information to know! I was taking what I think were pretty light cuts (~0.007'' depth). I'll have to push that up and see what happens. Thanks for the tips dude. Cheers.
If they pass HR127, we will all HAVE to become gunsmiths! Bunch of no good mothf&^*#$!!! For those of you that own fire arms, I highly suggest you read this POS bill. www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/127/text
I know next to nothing about milling yet was able to understand why you would need to check this and how to go about it using this tool due to your explanation, good vid mate.
Again, a very nice, discrete, clear description of a process that every mill owner should complete before making parts. Now, if I can ever get my hands on a mill and implements, this will be my first project. The second will be to make it CNC....😉
Enjoyed it, I have done any machine work since I got out of Uncle Sugar's Canoe Club back in 1983. I ran an old Japanese lathe in a valve shop and it was a joy.
I picked up a Bridgeport mill that I've been cleaning and "restoring" for my home shop. I just finished making your spindle square and it works great! Thanks for the plans! Only thing I did different was use set screws to hold the indicators. Just my personal preference... And I don't have a band saw lol. Love your channel!
Hey man, thanks for the comment. This little guy is pretty handy. If you make one, I think using a piece of aluminum that isn't as wide would be better (1.5'' was a little beefy). The 1.5" makes the set screw "flex" hard to come by. Anyways... you know this since you've build tool arms for work rests!
Thank you for this video sir, been planning to build one of these as well but hadn't found a video with the simple but correct answer!!! Like your videos because you get to the point and don't ramble on and on and on💣....lmao, great content sir!!!👌👌👍👍
Nice video, thanks for the lesson. You mill looks like my mini :) and that helps me feel more confident on my my mill. Also like your lathe. It sounds a lot like mine, based on your description. Still trying to figure out what I need for a QCTP for it. I'm still learning what I can while just building up chips making VERY easy stuff.
Heck yah man, glad you liked it. I put that QCTP on my lathe during the restoration video. It really wasn't that hard to do. Just need to fashion a T-Nut and BAM. Cheers sir! Have a great weekend!
I just bought the low torque mini mill from Little Machine Shop; it was 1200$ w shipping... I haven’t bought a bit or accessory yet, and now I need a lath to keep up w your projects? I think I’m going heat treat oven instead this next time. Good knowledge though!
Strangely enough, for the last 60 years I've never used one of these.......when I did see one I wondered how the heck the 2 dials could be equal.........seeing it set for first one then the other solved it......never too old to learn.
Check Mr. Pete 222 channel for simple version of a tramming device that uses a single indicator that swings around behind the vise. No mirrors are needed and the heavy vise does not need to be removed.
Very good video, easy to understand. I do have a question, you dud the side to side tram, what about the front to back tram. Don't you need to be square in both axis?
Great video, did you worry about the center shaft alignment so you had it on a 90 deg. to the main bar, or isn't that needed,, also why not just put little thumb screw into the shaft of the dial indicators? 👍👍
Good idea on the screw. The 90 degree angle actually doesn't matter if you zero the tool. I had to draw it out to verify in CAD... mind boggoling a little
@@RedBeardOps Mine is very very close if not on, but will check it to make sure, Already checked it with the digital read out and square off the table, but I'll make sure, Thanks so much Red Beard
Awesome channel, subscribed a week ago. Now, I'm somewhat perplexed and I hope you can help me understand a few things. I just acquired a used LMS 3960, so I'm pretty new to all this stuff. You are using a collet, vise and parallels (which all have some amount of concentricity TIR) but the two reference components to check here are the spindle and table/bed (what I would call the two references). Would checking the tram with a dial indicator attached to the spindle with a magnet and long enough arms to check each corner of the table and even the front/back center be a better tram foundation? Because if those two components are within say 1/2 thou or less then if you slap a vise and parallels on the table and it's out a lot more then it's either the vise and/or the parallels, right? Thank you.
Nice glad you're enjoying it! What I'm generally trying to do with this operation is to make sure my vice is trammed to the spindle. With the budget quality vise I have I just assume it's not going to be perfect so I make sure the vise is true rather than the table. Yes using the dial indicator on the spindle is a good solution as well, just takes longer since you have to move it back and forth. Note I'm not a machinist... so take all of that with a giant grain of salt
@@RedBeardOps I'm not a machinist either but sometimes I wonder if that what I should have done. Anyway, I think I understanding the setup here with said/used vise/parallels. It's like in cabinetry work, square is not always pleasing to the eye. If the wall/ceiling is way off then your square hung cabinets will look off unless you make the cabinets off to the same degree of the ceiling. Thank you.
Nice idea but You made this tool on the machine you wanted to calibrate so how do you know if this middle hole where the axle goes 7:15 is perfectly perpendicular? Metal bar 2:32 after miling is thicker on the one side so table had to be angled a little bit. If so , those 3 holes in the bar specially middle one , will be angled too and whole tool will wiggle while spinning giving bad measurment
Well, how do you know if you are machining the spindle square precisely if you cannot use the spindle square first to check if your mini mill is trammed correctly for making the spindle square? ;-)
It took me a while to think though that originally. The jig does not need to be perfectly perpendicular to work properly since you're zeroing both sides to the same spot.
i just got my harbor freight mini mill now i need to learn how to use it lol do you have any videos showing basic operation for a beginner ? any advice that you can ive me thanks bro Mark
Not stuipd at all! I'm no machinist... but this is how I see it. When you know the back of the piece is nice and flat, you can put it on your fixed vise jaw. The front of the piece isn't flat and parallel yet, so you can use a soft rod to clap down so that the front vise jaw doesn't shift your part. Something like that.
Hey Rob, depends on the mill. I don't think there really is a way to do it on the rotating head version of the Sieg, but on the little machine shop 3990 you can with shims.
Hey Red Beard Ops, very nice video! Just a small question, what about the other numbers on the small scale ranging from 0-10? I was always under the impression that both indicators should read the same on both dials?
Hey man, that just means that one of the two dial indicators had more of a "pre-load" when calibrating on that one spot on the parallel. If you want them to be exactly the same you could loosen the set screw and move the dial indicator up and down (opposed to just rotating the dial so that they line up on zero during calibration). Both will give you the same result, but many people like the feeling of both dials having the zero in the same spot on the dial when tramming. Hope that answered it.
My issue with this mill is the acme screws, they just arent machined to correct specifications, too tight, then too loose, then too tight. Insane vibration/oscillation, blows up cutting tools all the time too despite setting it up to perfect speed for the metal I'm cutting, plenty of coolant/oil, and I'm machining REALLY slow, still no go. Gibs sliding out, tighten them so they dont slide out = Too tight to move X/Y/Z. Tried using a stone on gibs/ways, still no go. Got a MT3 tool holder for some end-mills I bought, didnt tighten the bar too tight or anything = It's stuck in the spindle, no amount of hammering/lubing/wd40'ing gets it out. I knew this wasn't going to be a mill for big scale production or anything, wasnt even into CNC converting it as I just wanted a small mill. But I spent a summers worth of wages from various odd-jobs on acquiring it for various smaller projects, and it won't function correctly despite following all recipes on online forums (which I read BEFORE splurging on it), much less get it to do any of the things I wanna do with it :/
It actually doesn't matter sine you're calibrating each dial indicator. I know... i thought the same thing and had to draw it out in CAD to prove it to myself
The "left" and "right" indication errors cancel out as soon as you set zero both indicators to one single spot on the mill table by swinging the fixture 180 degrees.
Waste of time...Just bend a rod ( that takes a dial indicator ) that expands your range clamp the other end into the quill touch the table on 1 side ( zero it out ) swing it 180 degrees pick up the table ( example 0 one side swing 180 pick up the table lets say theres 15 thou difference split it in half ( move your head 7 thou ) and your at a perfect 90 degrees
Chicken before the egg scenario, I don't have the ability to make one since I don't trust the tram from the factory. What would recommend in this scenaro?
You can still make one with a mill that's out of tram. The adjustability of the dial indicators is what makes this possible.... took me a while to realize that
It is always good to see people that give credit when credit is due way too many give the impression that they have done something that has never been done before.
Cheers Robert! Thanks
Nice tight edit, job executed flawlessly and your explanation is superb - thank you for sharing the PDF plans also, really appreciated!
Glad it was helpful!
PDF Plans and a link to a *_cheap dial indicator_* is in the description. 🙌
I did enjoy the video! I use a very similar tool to tram my Mill. I also periodically break my Vise loose from the table still in the table and tram the vice to the table also. I really like that Atlas! I found using the carbide insert cutters they like to be under a consistent load. I was breaking the tip off of many inserts until I learned that they like a heavy cut. A heavy consistent cut. If you get it just right you'll get a heavy cut that breaks chips so that you don't have super long spirals that are Unbroken. I am running a South Bend heavy 10 with a 1 and 3/4 inch spindle bore. after my first year of running it really softly I realized just how heavy of a cut this machine can handle. Man now that you have a Mill and a lathe you're a veritable gunsmith!
Lol, thanks man! Good information to know! I was taking what I think were pretty light cuts (~0.007'' depth). I'll have to push that up and see what happens. Thanks for the tips dude. Cheers.
If they pass HR127, we will all HAVE to become gunsmiths! Bunch of no good mothf&^*#$!!! For those of you that own fire arms, I highly suggest you read this POS bill. www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/127/text
I know next to nothing about milling yet was able to understand why you would need to check this and how to go about it using this tool due to your explanation, good vid mate.
Heck yeah, thank you sir! Glad you got something out of this one. It's a handy little tool for sure.
Again, a very nice, discrete, clear description of a process that every mill owner should complete before making parts.
Now, if I can ever get my hands on a mill and implements, this will be my first project.
The second will be to make it CNC....😉
Thank you very much Chuck! Glad you enjoyed it.
I like all the mini mill content there really isnt much out there for that kind of mini mill.
Thanks Nick! Glad you liked it! I really like my little mill.. it's handy as heck.
Enjoyed it, I have done any machine work since I got out of Uncle Sugar's Canoe Club back in 1983. I ran an old Japanese lathe in a valve shop and it was a joy.
Heck yeah man, glad you enjoyed this one. Very handy!
I picked up a Bridgeport mill that I've been cleaning and "restoring" for my home shop. I just finished making your spindle square and it works great! Thanks for the plans! Only thing I did different was use set screws to hold the indicators. Just my personal preference... And I don't have a band saw lol. Love your channel!
Very cool! One day I may be able to justify a Bridgeport to my wife.... LOL Cheers
That’s a great little project! I need to look into something like this too. Thanks for the great video 👍
Hey man, thanks for the comment. This little guy is pretty handy. If you make one, I think using a piece of aluminum that isn't as wide would be better (1.5'' was a little beefy). The 1.5" makes the set screw "flex" hard to come by. Anyways... you know this since you've build tool arms for work rests!
You never get too old to learn something new....
CHeers Heiko!
Hey Red, Keith just also watched this video as well. Yep it's on my to do list, for the Mill...
Good information, thanks for another great video.
Thank you sir! Have a great weekend!
Thank you for this video sir, been planning to build one of these as well but hadn't found a video with the simple but correct answer!!! Like your videos because you get to the point and don't ramble on and on and on💣....lmao, great content sir!!!👌👌👍👍
Hi sir! Really happy you're enjoying them. Good luck with your build!
Que increíble idea, saludos colega ingeniero, un abrazo desde Ecatepec, México 🇲🇽
¡Gracias!
I 3d printed the one I currently have, but this would be a nice upgrade and project. Thanks for the video!
NICE! Cheers
Very well done Bud, thanks for sharing !!! =)
Thank you sir!
heya man, im just up the road from you in fairfield.
cmon up for coffee and burgers some time.
:)
Cheers sir! I move around alot... honestly don't want people on the internet knowing my location.
@@RedBeardOps fair enough, if your still anywhere nearby though, invites open. cmon over and play with our toys instead :)
Nice video, thanks for the lesson. You mill looks like my mini :) and that helps me feel more confident on my my mill. Also like your lathe. It sounds a lot like mine, based on your description. Still trying to figure out what I need for a QCTP for it. I'm still learning what I can while just building up chips making VERY easy stuff.
Heck yah man, glad you liked it. I put that QCTP on my lathe during the restoration video. It really wasn't that hard to do. Just need to fashion a T-Nut and BAM. Cheers sir! Have a great weekend!
Very well done.
Thank you! Cheers!
Great video boss. I wish we could tram the y
I agree! Thanks man
I just bought the low torque mini mill from Little Machine Shop; it was 1200$ w shipping... I haven’t bought a bit or accessory yet, and now I need a lath to keep up w your projects? I think I’m going heat treat oven instead this next time. Good knowledge though!
Heck yeah man! I be you're going to be happy with that guy. Very handy piece of equipment for sure!
Strangely enough, for the last 60 years I've never used one of these.......when I did see one I wondered how the heck the 2 dials could be equal.........seeing it set for first one then the other solved it......never too old to learn.
Cheer sir!
Check Mr. Pete 222 channel for simple version of a tramming device that uses a single indicator that swings around behind the vise. No mirrors are needed and the heavy vise does not need to be removed.
Very good video, easy to understand. I do have a question, you dud the side to side tram, what about the front to back tram. Don't you need to be square in both axis?
That mill doesn't have the ability to adjust the front/back tram easily... unfortunately. The LMS 3990 version of this mill does.
Great video, did you worry about the center shaft alignment so you had it on a 90 deg. to the main bar, or isn't that needed,, also why not just put little thumb screw into the shaft of the dial indicators? 👍👍
Good idea on the screw.
The 90 degree angle actually doesn't matter if you zero the tool. I had to draw it out to verify in CAD... mind boggoling a little
@@RedBeardOps Mine is very very close if not on, but will check it to make sure, Already checked it with the digital read out and square off the table, but I'll make sure, Thanks so much Red Beard
wow very simple process. I don't trust my mini mill to make the bar flat and square tho haha
Hey Paul, good thing is that it really doesn't matter if that bar is flat and square! Took me a while to realize that.
Awesome channel, subscribed a week ago. Now, I'm somewhat perplexed and I hope you can help me understand a few things. I just acquired a used LMS 3960, so I'm pretty new to all this stuff. You are using a collet, vise and parallels (which all have some amount of concentricity TIR) but the two reference components to check here are the spindle and table/bed (what I would call the two references). Would checking the tram with a dial indicator attached to the spindle with a magnet and long enough arms to check each corner of the table and even the front/back center be a better tram foundation? Because if those two components are within say 1/2 thou or less then if you slap a vise and parallels on the table and it's out a lot more then it's either the vise and/or the parallels, right? Thank you.
Nice glad you're enjoying it! What I'm generally trying to do with this operation is to make sure my vice is trammed to the spindle. With the budget quality vise I have I just assume it's not going to be perfect so I make sure the vise is true rather than the table.
Yes using the dial indicator on the spindle is a good solution as well, just takes longer since you have to move it back and forth.
Note I'm not a machinist... so take all of that with a giant grain of salt
@@RedBeardOps I'm not a machinist either but sometimes I wonder if that what I should have done. Anyway, I think I understanding the setup here with said/used vise/parallels. It's like in cabinetry work, square is not always pleasing to the eye. If the wall/ceiling is way off then your square hung cabinets will look off unless you make the cabinets off to the same degree of the ceiling. Thank you.
Nice idea but You made this tool on the machine you wanted to calibrate so how do you know if this middle hole where the axle goes 7:15 is perfectly perpendicular? Metal bar 2:32 after miling is thicker on the one side so table had to be angled a little bit. If so , those 3 holes in the bar specially middle one , will be angled too and whole tool will wiggle while spinning giving bad measurment
The assembly doesn't have to be perfectly square to function correctly. I know... Took me a while to wrap my head around that too.
Well, how do you know if you are machining the spindle square precisely if you cannot use the spindle square first to check if your mini mill is trammed correctly for making the spindle square? ;-)
I thought the same thing and had to prove it to myself in CAD. It actually doesn't matter. You zero it each time.
How about when you are machining this jig on a mill that is yet to be trammed?
It took me a while to think though that originally. The jig does not need to be perfectly perpendicular to work properly since you're zeroing both sides to the same spot.
Thanks for the tip, and reminder!
Did you tram your Mill, before you made a DIY Spindle Square, to use to tram your Mill?
; - )
Lol, I did! But I don't think it was really necessary.
Haaa was gonna ask how ya square a spindle square to tram the mill, before the mill is trammed. I sound like Dr. Suess huh. Love the vids man.
i just got my harbor freight mini mill now i need to learn how to use it lol do you have any videos showing basic operation for a beginner ? any advice that you can ive me thanks bro Mark
Hey CT, I don't. There are a good deal of good channels up on YT though for starting out. Blondie makes good ones.
where could a guy buy one do you custom make them just wondering
You could buy one here - amzn.to/3MunCuN
Really need to make me one of these. just one thing though, you never trammed the y axis?
Hey Andrew, glad you enjoyed this one! With this machine I can't adjust the nod. At least I don't think I can. I may be able to with shims
Stupid question, but why are you using the brass rod.? Once again sorry for the stupid question
Not stuipd at all! I'm no machinist... but this is how I see it.
When you know the back of the piece is nice and flat, you can put it on your fixed vise jaw. The front of the piece isn't flat and parallel yet, so you can use a soft rod to clap down so that the front vise jaw doesn't shift your part. Something like that.
@@RedBeardOps Sir, Thank you very much.. thats makes alot of sense now that you explained it..
So how is the Y axis trammend on a mini mill?
Hey Rob, depends on the mill. I don't think there really is a way to do it on the rotating head version of the Sieg, but on the little machine shop 3990 you can with shims.
Hey Red Beard Ops, very nice video! Just a small question, what about the other numbers on the small scale ranging from 0-10? I was always under the impression that both indicators should read the same on both dials?
Hey man, that just means that one of the two dial indicators had more of a "pre-load" when calibrating on that one spot on the parallel. If you want them to be exactly the same you could loosen the set screw and move the dial indicator up and down (opposed to just rotating the dial so that they line up on zero during calibration). Both will give you the same result, but many people like the feeling of both dials having the zero in the same spot on the dial when tramming. Hope that answered it.
@@RedBeardOps thanks!
never hit hammer. if comparator while in contact to somewhere. (you can break your comparator)
Have a great weekend sir!
My issue with this mill is the acme screws, they just arent machined to correct specifications, too tight, then too loose, then too tight.
Insane vibration/oscillation, blows up cutting tools all the time too despite setting it up to perfect speed for the metal I'm cutting, plenty of coolant/oil, and I'm machining REALLY slow, still no go.
Gibs sliding out, tighten them so they dont slide out = Too tight to move X/Y/Z.
Tried using a stone on gibs/ways, still no go.
Got a MT3 tool holder for some end-mills I bought, didnt tighten the bar too tight or anything = It's stuck in the spindle, no amount of hammering/lubing/wd40'ing gets it out.
I knew this wasn't going to be a mill for big scale production or anything, wasnt even into CNC converting it as I just wanted a small mill.
But I spent a summers worth of wages from various odd-jobs on acquiring it for various smaller projects, and it won't function correctly despite following all recipes on online forums (which I read BEFORE splurging on it), much less get it to do any of the things I wanna do with it :/
Sorry you've had poor experience with this machine sir! That's a bummer for sure.
Did you oil the guides ?
Take lighter cuts use sharp cutters and reduce feed rates.
How are you building a tool to tram a mill on the mill you’re looking to tram? How do you know the tool was made ok if the mill wasn’t trammed?
It actually doesn't matter sine you're calibrating each dial indicator. I know... i thought the same thing and had to draw it out in CAD to prove it to myself
The "left" and "right" indication errors cancel out as soon as you set zero both indicators to one single spot on the mill table by swinging the fixture 180 degrees.
@@robc8468 100% Accurate.
You only are adjusting the X axis. I had this mill and the Y axis was a disaster.
another benefit of the fixed column version of this mill for sure!
Waste of time...Just bend a rod ( that takes a dial indicator ) that expands your range clamp the other end into the quill touch the table on 1 side ( zero it out ) swing it 180 degrees pick up the table ( example 0 one side swing 180 pick up the table lets say theres 15 thou difference split it in half ( move your head 7 thou ) and your at a perfect 90 degrees
Sorry you didn't enjoy this one Tibor!
Exactly.
Chicken before the egg scenario, I don't have the ability to make one since I don't trust the tram from the factory. What would recommend in this scenaro?
You can still make one with a mill that's out of tram. The adjustability of the dial indicators is what makes this possible.... took me a while to realize that