This was definitely my favorite episode of ds9, if not all of trek, and for me it always felt like they tried to make an episode around that one siscko line "it's easy to be a saint in paradise, but we're not in paradise"
Pale Moonlight Is the best DS9 Episode.. "What did it cost you? 1 Dead Senator, I dead Criminal and the self respect of 1 Starfleet Officer.. I call that a Bargain"
I feel this episode both brings the Trek lore to a new level and showing the flaw of Roddenberry vision. Real life no matter the technology, religion, politics and economic structure still requires tough decisions that have no right answer.
I have to say yes this is my all time favorite. Just the acting altogether is amazing and shows that in the paradise star fleet and the federation where suppose to be. It showed that sometimes you did have to get your hands dirty. Just an awesome episode overall.
Oooh one of my favourite episodes of DS9 along side The Visitor and Valiant, I can still remember when this episode first aired I was glued to my seat with chills running down my spine. It was so well done that It left a lasting impression, if you could do one thing to save your friends from being slaughtered by merciless enemy would you? Even if you have to abandon your morals to do it. Great video!
I’m for Sisko all the way. In fact I long ago proposed the “Hawk scale” to instantly determine how good a given random episode of DS9 would be. The more Sisko looks like the character Hawk (an ice cold, Sam Jackson level streetwise hit man he portrayed on the TV show Spenser: for hire) the better the episode. The shaven head, goatee wearing, gravel voiced, no smiling thing is actually Avery Brooks’ real appearance. He changed it to fit the more “nice guy, good dad” image the Exec’s wanted at the beginning of the show. As seasons went by he slowly morphed back and the scripts got better as the series got more serious and morally gray. A decent little rule of thumb.
This Is a fantastic breakdown. You really know how to engage an audience and I appreciate your perspective. This is my favorite episode of DS9! I feel like this is really what made this show stand apart from every other Star Trek series. I like Garak as well. He is probably the most interesting person in this series and to use him in this light was pure brilliance!
Great video. This is one of my favorite DS9 episodes of all time. Deep Space Nine will always be my favorite Star Trek series because of how different it was from all the other Star Trek shows. They took risks that all the other series wouldn't and it paid off
Dammit, man! You killed it again with this video! And as for Sisko's last line, I think he repeats it not so much to confirm it to us viewers, but in order to convince himself; and I don't think he's entirely successful.
Garek's reasoning at the end "billions of lives will be saved and all it cost was one Romulan senator and one criminal. I don't know about you but I call that a bargain" And for me hes right.
This may be my most favorite DS9 episode. I am glad you did a single video on this lone episode. Will you consider doing a retrospective video on the career of D.C. Fontana?
The scene where Garak finally reveals to Sisko why things went down the way they did stands out so much to me. Sisko was frustrated with his less than moral behavior but sees he never would've gone through with it. So Garak was right in that Sisko came to him for a reason. No matter what, somewhere deep down, he knew it was going to happen. So he can live with it.
Hands down, one of - if not _the_ - best episodes of Trek, for the simple reasons that it shows: a) nothing is ever free, and b) the personal agony of choosing to do a terrible thing for all the right reasons. Sisko easily had a far better character arc than any other Captain in Trek that I have seen.
@@TriAngulumAudioStudios You're welcome. Here are a few episodes I thought of that you could do Back Trek videos of. TNG: The Drumhead The Chase DS9: Trials and Tribble-lations The Way of the Warrior The Siege of AR-558 Far Beyond the Stars Nor the Battle to the Strong.
I love the episode. It's willing to show that Star Trek isn't all sunshine and happiness. The universe is a dark, unfriendly place and it'll eat you alive if you let it. Also, while Picard is a great character and captain, he can be too much of a goody two-shoes at times and it just goes to show that you can't always solve problems with words.
I agree with that statement to a certain extent: "the universe is a dark, unfriendly place." That is true, the Universe is indeed a dark place and it is unfriendly to life in the majority of its depths. And yet, bastions of light can be found in her dark depths.
One of the best episodes of the #StarTrek Universe and probably #ST-DS9: political theme + scifi + human nature + moral values converge in perfection. Great video that summarizes this tension. Ty! This episode should have won all the TV awards that year, as well as Brook’s Sisko and Robinson’s Garak. “Humanity in front of our eyes.” Actual heroes are imperfect.
Amazing episode! I missed it back in the day and I messed up my vcr recording so it took until I bought the DVD’s to see it back in the 200’s it was stunning and I couldn’t believe I missed such an important episode!
I love this video and the episode. This episode represents what we all face everyday. I think everyone can be both Picard and Sisko it just depends on the situation. To quote Megatron from both Beast Wars and Beast Machines, "You've always lacked the machine element to do what's necessary to win." I've chosen this quote because some of us is scared to cross that line to get what we want in life. We let our fear to control us. Granted fear should be respected because it warns us of danger, recognize our limits and making an ass out of ourselves. I know this is off topic but it's so true that we do not follow the rules until we are up close and realized we made a terrible mistake.
This episode sends chills down my spine for a number of reasons. The writing is amazing, the acting is amazing, how Sisko over the course of the episode one by one throws away Starfleet's values. But what's most chilling for me is how Sisko gets more and more upset over the course of the episode, and then once he's revealed the greatest crime....he gets calm and collected again. He explained it all, and then after he does, he realizes he can live with what he's done. It changes my view on Sisko a bit, it shows the stretches he could go to if pushed far enough. It's chilling to see that in a Starfleet captain. It's subversion of expectations in the best way possible I feel, and it chills me to the bone.
Loved this episode! As far as I’m concerned, I have a little bit of both Picard and Sisko in me. I was a Marine and I was asked how would I deal with terrorism and I said a conventional military could not properly handle the threat of a terrorist organization so in order to beat them we would have to use our own terrorists, urban gangs who are well versed in the art of urban warfare. The goal of war is to win and that means having to put aside some morality in order to get the job done. If you have never experienced war then you won’t understand
You make a good point. Starfleet thinks that both sides are correct seeing as how section 31 is still a thing. I really wish I could be a Sisko, but the reality is I’m a Barkley.
You've picked some really good episodes for these. I loved the message in a bottle one and this is possibly my favorite episode...possibly. Very much enjoyed your episode once again. You really give a detailed overview and quickly link it to other related facts while staying on topic. Very engaging. You should reach out to CBS or something and see if they want to get on board with you or endorse your channel
Wasn't there also the Romulan science vessel, from The Next Phase? Which was a modification of the scout vessel model, but was supposed to be a much bigger ship. I do love the shuttle from this episode!
@@TriAngulumAudioStudios yeah but give them some credit, they changed both the front and back bits 😄 while CG is a godsend for doing good space scenes cheaply, I do kind of miss the physical models. TNG looks beautiful in HD, and the ships still seem to just look a tiny bit more real somehow.
How Sisko tried to get the Romulans into the war, that sounds like a Section 31 maneuver. I wonder when Star Fleet Command agreed to this plan, did Section 31 have anything to do with this?
One of my top 5 star trek episodes! Fantastic review!!!!! But, with time running out, I was becoming more and more disappointed with the video until those final seconds..... "It's a fake!" Made my day!!!!!
For more than half a century there have been STAR TREK fans. In that time I bet some of them had to make tough choices. These are the fans that most likely connected with this episode. These are the fans that still love DS 9 and always will.
This is my favorite episode of DS9. I liked that Sisko "got his hands dirty", but can live with it. Always thought a sequel to this episode could have made for a DS9 movie.
Sicko’s monologues during his log entry and confrontation with Garak were magnificent. My second favorite only topped by the pure emotion of “You betrayed your uniform!” In “For the uniform” (I’d love to see a behind scenes episode on that one also). This is a prime example of why DS9 has always been my favorite Star Trek series.
If they did, they need Ricardo Montalban as the Romulan learning the truth. Because he wouldn't be angry. He'd say, "Excellent!" and admire Sisko's skillful deception. Because that's how Romulans think. Look at Sela, her deception is uncovered, she has everyone killed and backs away slowly. She will remember the android. Not hate him.
I always wanted a follow-up/fallout episode to what Sisko and Garak did in this one. I know there's a novel that tackles the fallout (it's on my VERY long to-read list), but I would've enjoyed seeing Sisko have to deal with the fallout/reactions from people like Dax, Kira, and yes, Jake.
I could be mistaken, but I thought the “Dance with the devil in the pale moonlight” quote from 89 Batman was from an old idiom, and that was the reference with the show. I can’t remember the exact wording, but the gist is referring to the idea of what you do when you think no ones watching, or “you might be a good boy when the sun’s up, but what happens when the sun goes down? Are you still a saint, or do you dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?”. It certainly seems to fit the theme of the episode. 🤷♂️
Sisko should've insisted it was NOT fake, so that the Romulans at least thought that he thought it was real. Of course, once Garak did what he did, it didn't really matter.
Episodes like "In The Pale Moonlight" is the reasons why DS9 is my favorite Star Trek series. And there is no doubt that the Dominion was going to go after Romulus next. I'm definitely a Sisko. The Federation won the war, didn't they? Picard would have lost the war but kept his principles. Big deal when you lose all your freedoms.
This episode is really good, it is the one where Sisko is considered the best captain, where he is willing to murder and bring a nation at peace into war just because the casualty count would be lower. Side-note, I would have really liked to have seen implications of Betazed being invaded, either actually the battle (a TNG movie possibly?), or simply Luxani or Dianna Troi's emotional outbreak, and then the possibilities of a completely telepathic race being used to undercut the rest of the Federation.
1. I wonder why the writers didn’t have Sisko plan for the possibility Vreenak might discover that the datarod info wasn’t real. Sisko might have feigned shock, bowed to the superior technological capabilities of the Romulans, and asked for their help in discovering who had schemed to bring the Federation and Romulus into conflict by allowing Sisko to obtain the rod. With the proper preparation, Sisko and Garak still could have implicated the Dominion and achieved the same outcome, and it would have given them two shots at it instead of just one. 2. Likewise, it was odd that Sisko threatened Tolar after he’d finished the rod. I mean, they only had one Cardassian data rod. One shot at the recording. There was literally no point in shoving Tolar into a wall when there was literally nothing he could do to improve his work. 3. One of the earlier, discarded plots with Jake made me think he might have tried sleeping with Garak to get information out of him. Now THAT would have made for an interesting moment if his dad found out.
Contrast the handling of this episode to that of Voyager Equinox. I find Janeway’s moral soap boxing reactions to be far less identifiable and unrealistic. I think that had Voyager been in Equinox’s shoes the series would have had far more weight and depth and might have stood up equally to episodes like DS9 in the pale moonlight.
No one on DS9 would be able to keep secrets from each other if all parties just brought a Betazoid telepath with them to all of these clandestine meetings
I would be on the side of Captain Sisko for this. I realize that by this point in humanity's evolution that the very notion would be frowned upon by many if not most. Yet, in order to accomplish the mission of defeating the Dominion, every angle has to be looked at, analyzed, scrutinized, and carefully balanced. As stated in another episode, "The Dominion has the ability to manufacture ships and breed the Jem'hadar at an impressive rate". Having been in war myself, when you hear of or see the loss of a comrade, your mind begins to formulate multiple scenarios with the least amount of casualties, equipment, and resources. So if bringing the Romulans into the war in such a manner "might" bring them to your side, well then, it's worth it. Garak accomplished everything that Captain Sisko could not do with his own hands, even with Starfleets backing. And all it cost was the life of one criminal, a senator, and the pride of "one" Starfleet officer. So yes, I could live with that myself knowing that in the end millions of lives would be saved. And if the Romulans had not joined the war, it may have been billions of lives lost. Jolan tru
The thing is, Sisko was almost certainly right when he told the Romulan senator that the Dominion would come for the Star Empire once they were done with the Federation and the Klingons. It may have been years later but the Dominion would have found some excuse to go after the Romulans: if for no other reason than the Founders felt the Romulans couldn't be trusted.
Sisko may have not known that Garak would kill the Senator, but he knew who he was dealing with. No one believed at this point that Garak was an innocent tailor. Sisko went to Garak to get this done, not Bashir. That’s all we need to know of his culpability.
This is why Sisko should get his own movie. I want to see the Prophets send him to the Prime universe. And it would work. He's a man of action, and all of the post-TOS movies have been pushing for more action.
``What do you think of the episode?`` - I can live with it... ;-) ``Picard or Sisko?`` - I'm more a Quark... at least that's the closest to cheese in Trek, and I don't think I'm a friendly angel.
An interesting take off this would be: Voyager is about Janeway trying to be Picard even though she is fundamentally a realist. Then when here idealistic attempts fail, she bends over backwards to try to live with herself. Something she never does till she becomes admiral and accepts she is a realist.
The question is “Would you do what Sisko did? Or “What would you do in Sisko’s place?” It is unfair to compare Sisko to the other captains. They (the other captains) commanded starships. While Sisko commanded a sector of space. I agree must fans ignore the fact. That Starfleet gave Sisko’s plan their blessing and yes Sisko would have tried to stopped Garak from killing the Romulan Senator. It is always in Star Trek a question of character, ethics and morals.
I'm definitely in the Sisko camp, I can live with deceiving the Romulans, killing a Romulan senator and one criminal in exchange for saving the entire Alpha Quadrant. Garak:"I don't know about you, but I would call that a bargain."
I've personally considered Sisko the best ST captain ever since season 3 of DS9, with Archer my 2nd since season 3 of Ent. Picard was good, but frequently too noble to really do what was best, Janeway I didn't mind, until she became insane more often than not, Kirk was a bit too gung-ho at times to be completely effective. Just sharing my opinions
One question I'd like to put out. Had Sisko and Picard's place been swapped, what would they'd have done? Would Picard gone shady, assaulted and threated, lie...and more importantly, be able to live with the decision and his actions like Sisko? Or would he have cracked to his moral high ground that would probably cost them the war.
“I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I’m an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all… I think I can live with it… And if I had to do it all over again… I would. Garak was right about one thing - a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it…Because I can live with it…I can live with it. Computer - erase that entire personal log."
"ITS A FAAAAAAKE"
The most Iconic quote from DS9
I hope that becomes a popular meme for a single day one day
As much as that was a meme. The whole of the episode had some memorable quotes.
It's reeeeeeeaaalllll!!!
IT'S REAAAAAAAL - Benny Russell
Indeed it is! Probably up there with Live Long and Prosper and Im a Doctor not a (blank)
"I can live with it... computer delete last log entry."
That last line. That line sealed how Sisko was a willing to do wrong. All to do good.
Like a boss.
Another Iconic Moment in Trek history! :)
This was definitely my favorite episode of ds9, if not all of trek, and for me it always felt like they tried to make an episode around that one siscko line "it's easy to be a saint in paradise, but we're not in paradise"
It's one of my favs of DS9 as well!
One thing about that Romulan shuttle, it was the last physical model made for Trek, all subsequent new ships in DS9, Voy and Ent were cgi.
As always, thanks for the little bit of Trek Trivia :)
Pale Moonlight Is the best DS9 Episode.. "What did it cost you? 1 Dead Senator, I dead Criminal and the self respect of 1 Starfleet Officer.. I call that a Bargain"
Indeed it is :)
Sisko is a friggin hero, he's by far my favorite Captain in any scifi show.
"The best stories are of the human heart in conflict with itself." George R.R. Martin
I feel this episode both brings the Trek lore to a new level and showing the flaw of Roddenberry vision. Real life no matter the technology, religion, politics and economic structure still requires tough decisions that have no right answer.
I have to say yes this is my all time favorite. Just the acting altogether is amazing and shows that in the paradise star fleet and the federation where suppose to be. It showed that sometimes you did have to get your hands dirty. Just an awesome episode overall.
Without any doubt this is the best ds9 and Star Trek episode
Sisko the hero the federation doesn't want but the hero it needs.
Exactly!
Oooh one of my favourite episodes of DS9 along side The Visitor and Valiant, I can still remember when this episode first aired I was glued to my seat with chills running down my spine. It was so well done that It left a lasting impression, if you could do one thing to save your friends from being slaughtered by merciless enemy would you? Even if you have to abandon your morals to do it. Great video!
I really like the episode, it’s a shame that DS9 doesn’t get enough love.
It seems to be slowly getting more and more love as time goes by...
It's getting a lot love now, I think word has gotten out. It's even trending on Netflix.
I think DS9 gets a lot of love.
Thank you for covering my favorite episode of not only DS9 but all of Trekdom.
You're very welcome :)
I’m for Sisko all the way. In fact I long ago proposed the “Hawk scale” to instantly determine how good a given random episode of DS9 would be. The more Sisko looks like the character Hawk (an ice cold, Sam Jackson level streetwise hit man he portrayed on the TV show Spenser: for hire) the better the episode.
The shaven head, goatee wearing, gravel voiced, no smiling thing is actually Avery Brooks’ real appearance. He changed it to fit the more “nice guy, good dad” image the Exec’s wanted at the beginning of the show. As seasons went by he slowly morphed back and the scripts got better as the series got more serious and morally gray. A decent little rule of thumb.
Isn’t funny how both tng and ds9 get better after the beards?
This Is a fantastic breakdown. You really know how to engage an audience and I appreciate your perspective.
This is my favorite episode of DS9! I feel like this is really what made this show stand apart from every other Star Trek series. I like Garak as well. He is probably the most interesting person in this series and to use him in this light was pure brilliance!
Thank you so much :) That means a LOT!
Great video. This is one of my favorite DS9 episodes of all time. Deep Space Nine will always be my favorite Star Trek series because of how different it was from all the other Star Trek shows. They took risks that all the other series wouldn't and it paid off
Thank you so much :)
Dammit, man! You killed it again with this video! And as for Sisko's last line, I think he repeats it not so much to confirm it to us viewers, but in order to convince himself; and I don't think he's entirely successful.
Thank you so much! And I agree about his last line ;)
Garek's reasoning at the end "billions of lives will be saved and all it cost was one Romulan senator and one criminal. I don't know about you but I call that a bargain" And for me hes right.
You forgot the self respect of ONE Starfleet officer.
The needs of the many...
This may be my most favorite DS9 episode. I am glad you did a single video on this lone episode.
Will you consider doing a retrospective video on the career of D.C. Fontana?
That's actually Saturdays video :)
@@TriAngulumAudioStudios Awesome!
Indeed, it took me a few days to thoroughly research it but I just finished it and will be released Sat at 9am EST :)
hands down one of the best ds9 episodes ever
11:30. God I miss Don LaFontaine. Such a great voice.
The scene where Garak finally reveals to Sisko why things went down the way they did stands out so much to me. Sisko was frustrated with his less than moral behavior but sees he never would've gone through with it. So Garak was right in that Sisko came to him for a reason. No matter what, somewhere deep down, he knew it was going to happen. So he can live with it.
Definitely the best episode in whole STverse.
It's a great episode :)
Hands down, one of - if not _the_ - best episodes of Trek, for the simple reasons that it shows: a) nothing is ever free, and b) the personal agony of choosing to do a terrible thing for all the right reasons. Sisko easily had a far better character arc than any other Captain in Trek that I have seen.
I really enjoy these Back Trek videos.
thanks Patrick! :)
@@TriAngulumAudioStudios You're welcome. Here are a few episodes I thought of that you could do Back Trek videos of.
TNG:
The Drumhead
The Chase
DS9:
Trials and Tribble-lations
The Way of the Warrior
The Siege of AR-558
Far Beyond the Stars
Nor the Battle to the Strong.
hands down my fave EP of all time.
It's a great episode!
I love the episode. It's willing to show that Star Trek isn't all sunshine and happiness. The universe is a dark, unfriendly place and it'll eat you alive if you let it. Also, while Picard is a great character and captain, he can be too much of a goody two-shoes at times and it just goes to show that you can't always solve problems with words.
It brings a natural realism to Trek!
I agree with that statement to a certain extent: "the universe is a dark, unfriendly place." That is true, the Universe is indeed a dark place and it is unfriendly to life in the majority of its depths. And yet, bastions of light can be found in her dark depths.
This is my all time favorite episode of television.
One of the best episodes of the #StarTrek Universe and probably #ST-DS9: political theme + scifi + human nature + moral values converge in perfection. Great video that summarizes this tension. Ty! This episode should have won all the TV awards that year, as well as Brook’s Sisko and Robinson’s Garak. “Humanity in front of our eyes.” Actual heroes are imperfect.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few…or the one.
Love this episode.
My favorite episode this could a be a masters class in acting a 1 man play if you had avery Brooks only in it.
Sisko turns to Garek cause you have to get up pretty early to out fox the Dominion. And Garek never ever sleeps
Amazing episode! I missed it back in the day and I messed up my vcr recording so it took until I bought the DVD’s to see it back in the 200’s it was stunning and I couldn’t believe I missed such an important episode!
Indeed it is!
1. My favorite DS9 episode.
2. You just had to take a slap at Janeway, didn't you?
LOL Just keeping it honest! :P
I love this video and the episode. This episode represents what we all face everyday. I think everyone can be both Picard and Sisko it just depends on the situation. To quote Megatron from both Beast Wars and Beast Machines, "You've always lacked the machine element to do what's necessary to win." I've chosen this quote because some of us is scared to cross that line to get what we want in life. We let our fear to control us. Granted fear should be respected because it warns us of danger, recognize our limits and making an ass out of ourselves. I know this is off topic but it's so true that we do not follow the rules until we are up close and realized we made a terrible mistake.
This episode sends chills down my spine for a number of reasons. The writing is amazing, the acting is amazing, how Sisko over the course of the episode one by one throws away Starfleet's values. But what's most chilling for me is how Sisko gets more and more upset over the course of the episode, and then once he's revealed the greatest crime....he gets calm and collected again. He explained it all, and then after he does, he realizes he can live with what he's done. It changes my view on Sisko a bit, it shows the stretches he could go to if pushed far enough. It's chilling to see that in a Starfleet captain. It's subversion of expectations in the best way possible I feel, and it chills me to the bone.
Oh, I loved this episode when it aired. I couldn't help but laugh when Sisko ordered the computer to delete the log entry!
Dam good episode this,,,definitely one of THEE best episodes..
Great episode. The DS9 story episodes listed, those were the best episodes of the entire series, at least IMO.
Wow. Thanks for sharing this jem!
You're welcome :)
@@TriAngulumAudioStudios I just had to go back and watch that episode again. It was an amazing piece of writing.
Loved this episode! As far as I’m concerned, I have a little bit of both Picard and Sisko in me. I was a Marine and I was asked how would I deal with terrorism and I said a conventional military could not properly handle the threat of a terrorist organization so in order to beat them we would have to use our own terrorists, urban gangs who are well versed in the art of urban warfare. The goal of war is to win and that means having to put aside some morality in order to get the job done. If you have never experienced war then you won’t understand
My favorite episode
I do enjoy these BTS videos. Very informative.
Thank you very much Kevin :)
This and "Critical Care" are my favorite Trek episodes.
One of the best.
Yup, BEST Trek episode of all, "Far Beyond The Stars" a close second.
I thought that in 1999, I stand by that view 20yrs later.
You make a good point. Starfleet thinks that both sides are correct seeing as how section 31 is still a thing.
I really wish I could be a Sisko, but the reality is I’m a Barkley.
You've picked some really good episodes for these. I loved the message in a bottle one and this is possibly my favorite episode...possibly. Very much enjoyed your episode once again. You really give a detailed overview and quickly link it to other related facts while staying on topic. Very engaging. You should reach out to CBS or something and see if they want to get on board with you or endorse your channel
Thank you so much... And I never really thought about that...
A Shakespearean drama, and excellent actors.
Wasn't there also the Romulan science vessel, from The Next Phase? Which was a modification of the scout vessel model, but was supposed to be a much bigger ship. I do love the shuttle from this episode!
Indeed there was, but it was the same model :P
@@TriAngulumAudioStudios yeah but give them some credit, they changed both the front and back bits 😄 while CG is a godsend for doing good space scenes cheaply, I do kind of miss the physical models. TNG looks beautiful in HD, and the ships still seem to just look a tiny bit more real somehow.
Great video. I had a feeling the title was a nod to Batman 89. I didn't know RDM was part of this episode so thank you for that little fun fact.
How Sisko tried to get the Romulans into the war, that sounds like a Section 31 maneuver. I wonder when Star Fleet Command agreed to this plan, did Section 31 have anything to do with this?
One of my top 5 star trek episodes! Fantastic review!!!!! But, with time running out, I was becoming more and more disappointed with the video until those final seconds..... "It's a fake!" Made my day!!!!!
I like to build up the suspense :P
Great info. Thanks for what you do.
You're very welcome :)
I've been scarred by that Tuvix episode for 20 years and avoid it entirely. The scenes you showed still hurt me, too soon! :)
Another great and insightful video
For more than half a century there have been STAR TREK fans. In that time I bet some of them had to make tough choices. These are the fans that most likely connected with this episode. These are the fans that still love DS 9 and always will.
This has a Watchmen Rorschach’s Journal flavor to it. Trick the status quo into peace, but peace based on a lie.
This is my favorite episode of DS9. I liked that Sisko "got his hands dirty", but can live with it. Always thought a sequel to this episode could have made for a DS9 movie.
my favorite episode!!
Absolutely the best DS9 episode ever made.
Sicko’s monologues during his log entry and confrontation with Garak were magnificent. My second favorite only topped by the pure emotion of “You betrayed your uniform!” In “For the uniform” (I’d love to see a behind scenes episode on that one also). This is a prime example of why DS9 has always been my favorite Star Trek series.
It is a GREAT moment!
It'll be interesting to see whether the Romulans eventually learn the truth of this on PIC.
It certainly opens up the imagination!
If they did, they need Ricardo Montalban as the Romulan learning the truth. Because he wouldn't be angry. He'd say, "Excellent!" and admire Sisko's skillful deception. Because that's how Romulans think. Look at Sela, her deception is uncovered, she has everyone killed and backs away slowly. She will remember the android. Not hate him.
What I've wondered for years is what is that song playing in those DS9 episode trailers? Anyone know?
"I'll be along shortly to say.... hello."
I love this episode, its is also my favorite one too.
I'm half Picard and half Sisko.
I love this episode.
I always wanted a follow-up/fallout episode to what Sisko and Garak did in this one. I know there's a novel that tackles the fallout (it's on my VERY long to-read list), but I would've enjoyed seeing Sisko have to deal with the fallout/reactions from people like Dax, Kira, and yes, Jake.
Thank you for bringing up the fact that Sisko didn’t murder Vreenak and had no plans to murder anyone. It was Garak.
I could be mistaken, but I thought the “Dance with the devil in the pale moonlight” quote from 89 Batman was from an old idiom, and that was the reference with the show. I can’t remember the exact wording, but the gist is referring to the idea of what you do when you think no ones watching, or “you might be a good boy when the sun’s up, but what happens when the sun goes down? Are you still a saint, or do you dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?”. It certainly seems to fit the theme of the episode. 🤷♂️
It may have been, but the point is they were referencing the Batman Movie, not anything else!
Sisko should've insisted it was NOT fake, so that the Romulans at least thought that he thought it was real. Of course, once Garak did what he did, it didn't really matter.
Trials and Tribble-ations, Siege at AR-558, In the Pale Moonlight, Way of the Warrior.
In my belief, Picard is the hero we want to be while Sisko is the hero we sometimes have to be.
Episodes like "In The Pale Moonlight" is the reasons why DS9 is my favorite Star Trek series. And there is no doubt that the Dominion was going to go after Romulus next. I'm definitely a Sisko. The Federation won the war, didn't they? Picard would have lost the war but kept his principles. Big deal when you lose all your freedoms.
This episode marks a victory for the human spirit.
This episode shows why the answer
on " Kirk or Picard " is undoubtedly
Sisko .
This episode is really good, it is the one where Sisko is considered the best captain, where he is willing to murder and bring a nation at peace into war just because the casualty count would be lower.
Side-note, I would have really liked to have seen implications of Betazed being invaded, either actually the battle (a TNG movie possibly?), or simply Luxani or Dianna Troi's emotional outbreak, and then the possibilities of a completely telepathic race being used to undercut the rest of the Federation.
1. I wonder why the writers didn’t have Sisko plan for the possibility Vreenak might discover that the datarod info wasn’t real. Sisko might have feigned shock, bowed to the superior technological capabilities of the Romulans, and asked for their help in discovering who had schemed to bring the Federation and Romulus into conflict by allowing Sisko to obtain the rod. With the proper preparation, Sisko and Garak still could have implicated the Dominion and achieved the same outcome, and it would have given them two shots at it instead of just one.
2. Likewise, it was odd that Sisko threatened Tolar after he’d finished the rod. I mean, they only had one Cardassian data rod. One shot at the recording. There was literally no point in shoving Tolar into a wall when there was literally nothing he could do to improve his work.
3. One of the earlier, discarded plots with Jake made me think he might have tried sleeping with Garak to get information out of him. Now THAT would have made for an interesting moment if his dad found out.
Ha! I knew it was a Batman reference!!
LOL couldnt fool you :P
Contrast the handling of this episode to that of Voyager Equinox. I find Janeway’s moral soap boxing reactions to be far less identifiable and unrealistic. I think that had Voyager been in Equinox’s shoes the series would have had far more weight and depth and might have stood up equally to episodes like DS9 in the pale moonlight.
No one on DS9 would be able to keep secrets from each other if all parties just brought a Betazoid telepath with them to all of these clandestine meetings
I would be on the side of Captain Sisko for this. I realize that by this point in humanity's evolution that the very notion would be frowned upon by many if not most. Yet, in order to accomplish the mission of defeating the Dominion, every angle has to be looked at, analyzed, scrutinized, and carefully balanced. As stated in another episode, "The Dominion has the ability to manufacture ships and breed the Jem'hadar at an impressive rate".
Having been in war myself, when you hear of or see the loss of a comrade, your mind begins to formulate multiple scenarios with the least amount of casualties, equipment, and resources.
So if bringing the Romulans into the war in such a manner "might" bring them to your side, well then, it's worth it.
Garak accomplished everything that Captain Sisko could not do with his own hands, even with Starfleets backing. And all it cost was the life of one criminal, a senator, and the pride of "one" Starfleet officer. So yes, I could live with that myself knowing that in the end millions of lives would be saved.
And if the Romulans had not joined the war, it may have been billions of lives lost.
Jolan tru
The thing is, Sisko was almost certainly right when he told the Romulan senator that the Dominion would come for the Star Empire once they were done with the Federation and the Klingons.
It may have been years later but the Dominion would have found some excuse to go after the Romulans: if for no other reason than the Founders felt the Romulans couldn't be trusted.
Sisko may have not known that Garak would kill the Senator, but he knew who he was dealing with. No one believed at this point that Garak was an innocent tailor.
Sisko went to Garak to get this done, not Bashir. That’s all we need to know of his culpability.
This is why Sisko should get his own movie. I want to see the Prophets send him to the Prime universe. And it would work. He's a man of action, and all of the post-TOS movies have been pushing for more action.
``What do you think of the episode?`` - I can live with it... ;-)
``Picard or Sisko?`` - I'm more a Quark... at least that's the closest to cheese in Trek, and I don't think I'm a friendly angel.
An interesting take off this would be: Voyager is about Janeway trying to be Picard even though she is fundamentally a realist. Then when here idealistic attempts fail, she bends over backwards to try to live with herself. Something she never does till she becomes admiral and accepts she is a realist.
The question is “Would you do what Sisko did? Or “What would you do in Sisko’s place?” It is unfair to compare Sisko to the other captains. They (the other captains) commanded starships. While Sisko commanded a sector of space. I agree must fans ignore the fact. That Starfleet gave Sisko’s plan their blessing and yes Sisko would have tried to stopped Garak from killing the Romulan Senator. It is always in Star Trek a question of character, ethics and morals.
Starfleet authorized Sisko's mission to get the Romulans into the war just like they authorised him to catch Eddington by any means possible
Great men are forged in fire. It's the privilege of lesser men to light the flame. whatever the cost ~the War Doctor~
I would made it into two-parter and added Jake too but different.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what's right." (from the Foundation trilogy).
Sisko. Love this episode. We need a sisko. Bernie is part Picard Tulsi Gabbard is Spock. We need a sisko.
I'm definitely in the Sisko camp, I can live with deceiving the Romulans, killing a Romulan senator and one criminal in exchange for saving the entire Alpha Quadrant.
Garak:"I don't know about you, but I would call that a bargain."
I like Picard, but I love Sisko
I've personally considered Sisko the best ST captain ever since season 3 of DS9, with Archer my 2nd since season 3 of Ent.
Picard was good, but frequently too noble to really do what was best, Janeway I didn't mind, until she became insane more often than not, Kirk was a bit too gung-ho at times to be completely effective. Just sharing my opinions
They are basically 2 sides of the same coin...
Though Sisko didn’t know about the murder of the senator he did involve Garak knowing he would do wit’s to protect the alpha quadrant.
I hope to be like Picard but honestly i may have had some very Sisko moments in my life. Not in this scale of course.
Lets hope not at least :P
One question I'd like to put out.
Had Sisko and Picard's place been swapped, what would they'd have done? Would Picard gone shady, assaulted and threated, lie...and more importantly, be able to live with the decision and his actions like Sisko? Or would he have cracked to his moral high ground that would probably cost them the war.
I think Picard would have found a different solution. Think of Picard v. Q v. Sisko v. Q. Both of them dealt with Q successfully, but differently.
“I lied. I cheated. I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I’m an accessory to murder. But the most damning thing of all… I think I can live with it… And if I had to do it all over again… I would. Garak was right about one thing - a guilty conscience is a small price to pay for the safety of the Alpha Quadrant. So I will learn to live with it…Because I can live with it…I can live with it. Computer - erase that entire personal log."