Thats not true and anyone that understands the odds of the cards knows that the casino doesn't *need* to fix anything. Their advantage is built in to the game..!!!
It's always the greed that gets you. If they had stopped at $10 million in profits, they would have gotten away with it. In fact, the video states that others were on to the same idea, there might be people out there who made millions with edge sorting, but because they weren't greedy, they weren't the ones who were found out.
That is my all time favorite folksy saying and I've used it a few times. I don't remember if I heard it from the original source or through word of mouth, but it is timeless wisdom that applies to many situations and is easily understood.
The Brogata suing for 5M more because they said " that's what he would have lost if he didn't use an advantage" tells everyone that Casinos are the ones cheating people out of their money.
Dude, if you don't understand the difference between "stated rules have an advantage" and "cheating", you're gonna find yourself in jail sooner or later. (Cut to @itzMoJo67 getting arrested for shoplifting and yelling "The store makes a profit when we buy stuff! Tells you who the _real_ thief is!")
@@agawtdangedbear i’m not saying casinos don’t have an edge, i’m saying the fact they are suing for extra because they didn’t win instead of losing is dumb. Which is why it got thrown out. I also find it ridiculous that Ivey lost his suit. He didn’t touch the cards, use any outside help, other than his partner, which is allowed. He found a way to gain a edge and won, just like counting cards.
Dude, the fact that Ivy lost in court is insane and corrupt. They basically retroactively changed the rules of the game that they had agreed to play with him and the courts were like. “Yep, that sounds good.“
Casinos: use every single tactic to drain money from their gamblers Phil and Sun: use one tactic to drain money from casinos. Casinos: "But you can't do that! That's illegal!"
Crockfords sealed their own fate when they decided not to pay out. Who is going to gamble when the punters think that the casino can on a whim decide just not to pay you?
Because the casino was too incompetent to know this was a way to identify cards and get a huge edge over the casino. Or more likely, they knew this was possible but that if the couple lost they could keep the money and if the couple won they can refuse to pay them and still keep the money.
Well, if you listened. The judge said "they duped the croupier", implying that they used/abused the ignorance into tricking them to agree with something that would make it possible. Whether it's cheating or not, is subjective. An argument can be made for both.
@@biglollol is it not dealers job to NOT agree to these terms or deny doing things the rotating cards upon the players request? This is like playing a sport for money, asking a ref to do something which gives you an edge, then they do it knowing they could be providing an edge... The player isn't at fault, the ref made the wrong call. This is exactly the type of bootlickin take that keeps billionaires rich and prevent anyone from exploiting a mistake they made... While we are continually exploited with no recourse or chance to take a win? Right.
I was wondering that too. In any case, I think their reputation would have been better served by paying out the $11 million and thanking Ivey for dramatically highlighting a loophole in their system to be fixed. $11mill is pocket change for a successful casino.
Such cases backfires on Casinos reputation for being leechers and ultimstely not attractIng other high rollers and also missing out on causual losers that they could attract by doing huge payouts to few winners like lotteries. marketing, loss big but win small but more..
Even if it's just skill etc they kick you out of a casino if you're winning. But I agree, they'd make card counting illegal too if they could. There's so many actual cheats is crazy tho
that chris moneymaker story is so crazy that its like it was all a set up, but the people setting it up were like "this is too unlikely to happen, people will accuse it of being a set up", and so the solution was to give him the name Moneymaker so that the idea of it being set up would sound ridiculous
im not even suprised anymore, this happens like every day, everyone and their mom is making incredible well edited hour long videos i dont understand it
@@BoneBoyYo no it is not, ai often contains odd phrasings which would make people realize somethings off, the script here seems to be written very well
I really do think considering what he did as cheating is insane, feels more like the courts bailing out the casinos for making terrible business decisions, the second he asked to use the same decks they should have known something was up, they could have denied his requests
Yeah, I don't mean to come off as "casinos always bad," but in this case it really was a case of them wanting to have their cake and eat it too. They willingly changed the rules of the game to favor Ivey and then complained to the courts about the results of that very action.
I'm sorry to defend casinos, but if you make a decision where you are being defrauded, should you be accountable? Say I ask you to give me $1000 and I will play a game at your house. I don't. Is it your fault you got defrauded? Same deal
@@accountnamewithheld it’s the casinos fault for not knowing they could gain an edge from their policies. It’s the same thing as card counting. They didn’t use any outside devices or tools to defraud them.
@@maxaffe3195 It’s easy. Ivey and Sun were misrepresenting why they wanted the cards turned, by claiming it was due to superstition which is wasn’t, that is just fact, they did not want those turned for that purpose. You can agree or disagree and hate the casinos as much as you want, but even the smallest deception when it comes to gambling will always be viewed as cheating from a legal standpoint.
It's way deeper than a simple payoff. Borgata is owned by MGM International who's major stakeholders are Blackrock and Vanguard group who are also major stakeholders in Apple, Google, Microsoft , Capital One and every major defense contractor He literally went to court against the richest people on earth.
@@BWeManX Yes, statistically speaking, who is to say they didn't just have that one in a million lucky spree? Maybe the edge sorting did nothing, and they just were in the 0.1% of big winners?
@@Maxime_K-G Just because you invent numbers that seem big to you doesn't make them accurate. "0.1%" and "one in a million" are off by a factor of 1000. The odds of a $30 million win on 0.9894 play with $100k hands is less than 1 in a billion. (And most of their hands were lower value than that.) I'm not commenting at all on whether or not edge sorting is cheating. I'm just offended that you said "statistically speaking" and then proceeded to treat math like a $5 whore.
This video made me so angry. I'm an engineer by trade and I generally work for a smaller companies though I have worked for some of the big tech giants in the past. There's always something when you're dealing with these companies and it's absurdly unfair. This saga is essentially a distillation of how these conglomerates basically can get away with manipulating reality based on their own whims.
This makes me livid too! It's absolutely WILD that the casino agreed to the all his requests and rules of the game and allowed it all when they thought they would be the winners, but then they cry cheating and call their own automatic shuffler "a cheating device". I know US judges are corrupt as hell, the corruption here goes from local police all the way up to the Supreme Court. The UK couldn't let a man from America come in and win 8 million pounds and make them look foolish. They had to try and save face somehow, but it's all that much more obvious to me now how corrupt all these Government systems are. Real life is more unbelievable than fiction sometimes. I'm not even a big fan of Phil Ivey or anything. I only know him from poker, and I personally like Daniel Negranu and think he's actually a better player, but Ivey absolutely deserved to win all $20+ million he got sued for. This was the equivalent of agreeing to a bet on a game and welching by getting Daddy government to say it's unfair for a casino to loose.
@@bennyxd199getting caught doing what exactly … What did he do that was illegal ? Considering all he did was request certain concessions that the casinos weren’t obligated to agree to yet they did because they where trying to bleed him for everything 💀
@MJisAGlorifiedDemarDerozen exactly. It goes both ways. He had his chance to walk away and lay low. Let's try to find some examples of others who haven't been caught to this extent? This is fairly recent in the grand scheme of casino surveillance, which this video a great job of painting a picture of with its early mentions.
Ivey: is it okay if you rotate the this card? My friend here holds the belief it wil increase our chance of winning. Casino: oh, sure The rotated card: increases their chance of winning. Casino: you lied to us!
In Portugal we say "A thief that steals from a thief deserves a 100 years of pardon". Man should've gotten his winnings if the courts weren't being paid by the casinos themselves.
@@feelinghealingfrequences7179 drug dealers gave me motivation to sell my kids in exchange of crack, great people helping me beat my procrastination problem
He essentially was reprimanded for breaking a rule that never existed until after they realized they needed a rule Thank you everyone, I’m finally a 10k Andy. Can we get 15? lol
1. Maybe the casino shouldn't set up special requests for players 2. Why don't they just change the cards used with plain backs?! I'm on his side....screw the casinos for being so dumb
@@blahmcblahface3965 Casinos are greedy. If the Borgata/Crockfords doesn’t grant special requests, another casino would. That’s an excellent point. I think it’s because edge sorting barely existed prior to this event. There were some obscure stories of people using it, but it wasn’t at all a thing on casino’s radars. Once this happened, some casinos did alter their card designs and the card manufacturers like Gemaco (Borgata actually sued them during this saga, it just wasn’t relevant to the video’s story) changed their manufacturing practices. But because edge sorting requires the casino to grant so many requests, they can just not grant those requests anymore and will have protected themselves.
blank cards r really easy to mark, tables r dirty so sometimes stuff just sticks to them. that could mark them and make them easy to identify so they have patterns instead
@@zym6687easy solution is to never repeat a deck if they are unwilling to pay the winnings of an edge sorter. That's my biggest problem with this case. The casino doesn't assume risk of this advantage play because they just won't pay out if they can prove after the fact that edge sorting occurred. If the advantage players get extremely unlucky the casino is perfectly happy to keep their winnings. I seriously think that with precedents like these, gamblers should be able to sue the casino for losses after they are over served with alcohol. Getting your patrons drunk to inhibit their ability to control their impulses is much worse than taking advantage of a casino's oversight. Especially as we already know how addictive gambling is by itself.
Sun sure did learn from that experience where she was the one to get in trouble because it was her name that borrowed the money. Having the games played under Ivey's name meant that _he_ was the one who ended up fighting those lawsuits.
@@YantoWest Sure, in the second half Ivey was the one who had the reigns and steered them into getting caught. But Sun was the one who came up with the strategy and approached Ivey. So if you look at the whole time, it sounds like they were roughly equal partners. And from the Casino's and law enforcement's view they both performed one half of the exploit (sun analyzing the card backs and Ivey placing the bets), so they both should have been sued. If two people get caught stealing from a warehouse together, and the guy says "sorry officer, I convinced her to do it; she wouldn't have done it without me.", then both would still get charged - at least I hope so.
Genuinely misread 1.9k views as 1.9 million when clicking on it, and believed it till I saw at the end. Deserves so many more views, great video don’t stop
@@redaoualla9703the vast majority low view videos are a blight to my feed. Im no stranger to finding low subs channels sky rocket after seeing their great production/editing quality and storytelling. This guy has the skill to get a few hundred thousand subs by next year if he keeps improving from this level onward.
There is no way that this hasn't been written out and sold as a screenplay to Hollywood. Congratulations on a quality documentary there are so few of them out there.
@@osco4311 Who knows what other "dirt" those groups had on these high profile men. They have millions to spend on investigation and finding out the unknowable. They robbed him because of their mistake.
Shame Phil lost his cases. Can't believe that requests granted by the casino can be overlooked in a court system like that! They knew what they were being asked to do, they were foolish to not spend more time thinking on it and were too greedy to say no. I bet if the shoe was on the other foot the casino would STILL win their case. Great documentary, loved every minute of it!
In fact, everyone of us that have lost money at casinos by playing at a disadvantage should now sue casinos because they don’t post that you’re playing at a disadvantage.
@@Run_The_NumbersI disagree, the supreme judge illustrated well. If you use deceit to put rules and requests that would alter the nature of the game, that’s cheating because it’s fraudulent in nature, whether the casino realizes it or not. Being able to know what the cards are while face down because of a manipulation goes against the rules of the game. If they were able to do it without the dealer manipulating the cards, it’d be fair game. I’m not trying to defend Casinos and their scummy tactics.
Exactly. I was really suprised when I found out what card counting was, because from context clues I assumed it to be a form of card marking, because what card counting actually is was how I assume one played correctly
What a wonderful documentary! I did not think I was going to watch a poker documentary today, but here we are. I remember watching WSOP at my parents' house at 3am probably 20 years ago and he was instantly my favorite poker player. And he was always playing it seemed like.
What the fuck man yeah it was law to burn witches, dont you have your own mind? Do you have to be told what something is by a power source? Have your own opinions@@michaelblankenau6598
"The house always win, except when it doesnt. And when it doesn't, it rewrites the rules." If you ever make a merch store at any point in time, make this a poster and i will buy it.
You watched a UA-cam video about the topic and feel comfortable accusing the UK courts of corruption? Think about it friend, you didn't review the laws around this issue or even read the ruling and you feel comfortable offering a strong opinion. If you want the laws to represent your will, you can't check out of the system. If the casinos control the judiciary, you have to prove that.
In vegas, all advantage play cases were automatically thrown out. This sets a dangerous precedent where casinos can accuse anyone of cheating via card counting etc and take you to court over it
Yep. Casinos are built off being unfair so when they try to pull unfair shit you can't be too surprised. But courts are supposed to be fair. And they're clearly not
To rule that a gambler has an obligation to provide a "fair game" to a casino is the most UTTERLY INSANE thing i have heard in my life. To suggest that while every game inside of a casino is rigged against the gambler and the very construction of the building is designed to increase the amount of time a gambler spends gambling, meanwhile the casino ACTIVELY INEBRIATES HIM. That the gambler has an obligation to provide the casino with a "fair game” is so absurd, stupid and ridiculous that I genuinely do not think that a person with a sound and unbiased mind could make such a ruling. I think that judge was either bribed, or somehow mentally deficient. Either he was high of his ass when he made that ruling, or he has early-onset dementia, or he is just a MASSIVE idiot. It is so completely ridiculous, i can't find the words to describe it.
Exactly. If something is against illegal, then have it written up explicitly. They are like the kid in elementary school who added rules as the game goes on to ensure they always win
The quality of this world is off the fucking charts man! Not only did you share a story that I had never heard of, it was also over something I know basically nothing about and yet thanks to your words I was able to keep up perfectly fine with everything they were doing. And even still you kept the story exciting on top of that! This is truly incredible and I wish you all the subscribers. I'm sure your 2.5 MILLION views are more ecidence than my words, but i wanted to share them still.
As soon as you said "Chris Moneymaker" a big smile crept across my face. What a fucking legend. I remember watching that crazy hand against Ivey when I was a kid, too. Only 8 minutes in and I'm already having a blast remembering some guys
@@notme222 "Can I rotate the cards? It will increase our odds. My partner wants to employ feng shui to assure 运气 for great winnings. " "Yes! I'm sure it will bring you great luck!" ... (continue with the script)
@@notme222 Casino: "Man, they're stupid to think that rotating the cards will improve their luck, sure, we'll agree to them doing that." Gambler: "Man, the casino is stupid to not realize it really DOES improve our luck on subsequent deals, just as we openly said!" Casino: "We're suing you for our negative opinion of what you honestly said you were doing when we agreed to it."
i learned how to count cards while playing rummy in prison. rummy is super easy to count cards because 3/4ths of the deck will either be on the table or in the players hands. the more turns the easier it is to read what the other players are holding and what is still in the deck yet to be drawn. i had so many soups the mexicans called me "pozolito"
At first, I felt bad that Sun wasn't getting credit for the system and that the courts seemed to say that it was Ivey's system, but it's really funny that she's getting away with doing the same thing just because Phil Ivey's the name that was in the headlines.
I bet you anything that they haven't gone after her bc it's turned into a "Moneymaker" situation She posts her casino wins to inexperienced gamblers on TikTok, and I bet some of them walk into casinos to try to pull off her tricks themselves
it’s like when her friends didn’t pay her $100,000 tab - if that story’s legit, she likely harboured some bad feelings from that and worked to never be tricked like that again
The BobbyBroccoli of gambling. This was a treat to watch, the research and incredible storytelling kept me hooked the entire time. Super excited for what you’ll produce next, keep it up.
All the judges were in the casino’s pocket 100%. And the fact that the one casino had the audacity to sue him for the money he would have lost playing without the advantage is a whole new level of hypocrisy. The casino’s idea of “fair play” is a complete fucking joke.
No reason not to ask for it as the casino, it's at least facially plausible and no downside. I'd be a little surprised if the entire UK Supreme Court was paid off by the casino to rule this way. Their reasoning makes sense, although as a policy matter I do think they should have ruled the other way.
If you win by walking in for the first time in your life, having never gambled, threw down a million dollars on green in roulette and win, they'll try to cry that something was unfair. Casinos are the biggest sore losers I've ever seen, and I say that as someone who used to go to fighting game tournaments where "Yeah, well, my controller wasn't working" is a regular excuse. I read a story once where someone hit a jackpot on a machine, took a photo of it, and the casino said "Oh that was just a computer bug" like that's somehow her problem. Pay her out, update the software, and get over it. It's not her job to keep your shit running right. Needless to say, she lawyered up because the only time the casino has to pay someone they say "My controller is broken!" is a load of bullshit. Casinos will lose fair and square, and then jump through the most insane hoops to call someone a cheater. They'll never admit defeat, and it's only okay when they do it. It's hypocrisy, it's disgusting, and they shouldn't be allowed to get away with this shit. I'm tired of these sore losers crying and whining that every time they lose is unfair because this bullshit or that bullshit and why should they ever have to pay anyone when they lose? The one way street bullshit needs to die.
This cynical attitude is why we see such decay in democracies. You watched a UA-cam video on this topic and felt comfortable accusing the UK judiciary of serious corruption. You didn't review the laws around Casinos in the UK or even listen to more than a minute of the ruling. People who thumbs upped the original comment have to do better if you want the laws to reflect your wishes. Giving up and checking out is a sure fire way to make sure they don't.
@@dysmaruuramsyd3233 The original commenter said something serious in obvious ignorance. That quickness to unfairly judge is exactly what empowers bad actors to rise under populist flags. If people want to see a positive change in our political system, they need to plug in to it, not drop out and say it's fucked beyond redemption. Is that a better explanation, or were you just being rude to me by sniping me with hollow criticism, coward? If you disagree with something I said, why don't you stand tall on that and make an actual argument?
"...That Ivey and Sun violated their obligation... ...to provide the casino with a Fair Gaming Experience" It's just business and no cheating was established - meaning it was absolutely and completely fair under that premise
the really perverted thing is that they did provide the casino with a Fair Gaming Experience" The were not guaranteed to win (proven by the fact they lost in their 1st session and Ivy thot it was a scam) they just had an edge... exactly as the casinos offer to players... but they players don't know how big the edge is.. esp when the casinos do things like get them drunk (hardly a "fair" gaming experience, btw) sick rulings
The title of the video is interesting. Turns out it wasn't the greatest heist on a casino that was done legally. It was the greatest heist casinos did on an individual, abusing the corrupt legal system.
The whole setting up of specific conditions under false pretense to make their scheme work meets the definition of fraud, both in the UK and the US. They are lucky they weren't charged criminally. It is fundamentally no different than someone trying to get you to install malware with a phishing attack, pretending to be your bank. Just because you let them do it doesn't make it legal. I also agree the legal system is corrupt but they literally didn't have to be in this case for the casinos to keep their money. There are other cases where what you assert is true. Cases where casinos have obviously bought off corrupt judges to avoid paying tens of millions of dollars. The reason I don't play any electronic games in a casino is because they routinely claim software glitches to avoid paying. Meanwhile, it is much harder to weasel out of paying out on a table game. They have cameras everywhere and you can subpoena that footage to use in your lawsuit against them for not paying out. Saying 'oops, we lost it' doesn't fly with a casino. If they genuinely believed you were cheating, they would keep it. This is why, if you are counting cards (in your head) and they catch on (more to counting cards than just the math), all they can do is ask you to leave. They can't even legally keep your winnings. Use a computer to count cards and you're going to prison for grand larceny. If their video poker is that buggy, why was it certified by the Nevada Gaming Commission?
@@meepk633 Disregard of the 6 month statute of limitations with no explanation (at least in the video). Reclassification of an automatic shuffler, the tool literally used to insure fair play, as a cheating device. Withholding payment until after an investigation is conducted. (The “rule” as explained in the video is that the casinos payout fairly earned winnings. 54:53) if you don’t think he won fairly then we didn’t watch the same video? 1:00:12 Those are 3 of the many selectively enforced rules. The many selectively enforced rules were almost entirely the reason the casinos won the law suits. It’s like you weren’t even paying attention.
I get the same jolt when the medical cases channel goes, "...causing him to go to the emergency room, where we are now," even when the case history retelling goes on for weeks or years after that.
The irony is that the casino would gladly have paid much more than $11 million to a consultant who analyzed their setup and informed them of any such flaws so they could tighten up their gaming tables, but damned if they'll let one gambler keep $11 million by highlighting the same weakness to them.
Just wanted to say this is a top notch, thrilling and exciting documentary that deserves real professional recognition. Great pacing, great story-telling, great style.
The delicious double-standard of rigorously establishing a well-understood, transparent, and nevertheless tolerated institutional advantage, then having a problem with individual advantage and even flipping the table on which they were legitimately beaten ethically mandates defrauding casinos.
They should make a movie with actors out of this video. You mate are amazing. So happy yt actually recommend this to me randomly! Congratulations for your amazing script and narration. Great editing too!
Dude! YT put this video on my feed. Close to the end, i went to your channel thinking I'd find more excellent content (and wondered how I hadn't seen you before!). Surprised to learn this was the only vid, but i am sure it is simply the first of many! Well done!
Being an advantage player is a rare and difficult line of work for sure. Casinos happily throw free drinks at customers to sit and gamble away, not caring if that individual has a problem, or can afford to lose the money they’re putting up, but god forbid you jump out of your chair to celebrate a big win, it can be voided immediately and you won’t be paid, god forbid you know how to turn the house’s huge advantage to a single digit advantage in your favor, not breaking any rules to do so. They can threaten you, intimidate you, cause you grief and even refuse to pay you, tell local police to harass you on their behalf. It really is a cruel joke and why no one should give them a dime of their hard earned money.
The house advantage isn’t “huge” baccarat has a 1.06% house edge in most cases. What you’re calling “small” is 4x larger than the standard house edge and that’s worst case scenario for this strategy. The truth is this is fraud and actually cheating, not just writing a few rules that boost your odds by 1% like most casinos do.
They didn't want to continue for a long time because they suspected the casinos would catch on at some point, but I agree maybe losing some money would have been a smarter play
It would just prolong the inevitable. Even if they lost, they wouldn't be in the negative, which is what makes it suspicious, because you should be in the negative in the long run. What they should have done, is know when to stop. Plenty of casinos in the world, I'm sure they wouldn't mind losing a few mill. But they put on heat on a few ones, and yeah, you only need 1 mouth to start talking until all casinos put their eyes on you.
Greed vs. Greed is the perfect summary of this saga. But I do think, that Casino's should not cry foul when their whole business model is built on them having a government protected edge.
What an interesting story and amazing work with this documentary. Wasn't planning to watch 1h 15min video on one sitting but I was captivated by the whole setting.
I am 46 minutes into the video and i just noticed that this video only has 36k views and the channel only has 561 subscribers. This channel is so underrated.
This video was great but lowkey my favorite part was when you used half-life music in the background at around 47 min. I was painting minis while listening to the video and I had to stop what I was doing cause I recognized the bass synth, i turned up the volume to get a better listen and it made me smile ear to ear. Very nice touch on an incredible video, keep up the good work!
The disappointment of going to your channel for more of these incredible documentaries and seeing this is the first makes me even more excited to be part of the beginning of great things to come. Keep it up man 🔥
"So just keep that in mind, the most popular and over-saturated method of advantage play has graphs that look like that" is such a good way to wrap that segment
Honestly suprised if casinos don't end up making far more than their money back on people falsely thinking they can outsmart the casino because of stories like this.
Pretty much. I've met "good" gamblers who still barely tread water in terms of lifetime wins/losses. It is crazy crazy hard to beat these motherfuckers. If you do they find every way to keep you going because every hot streak ends.
This is one of the most egregious things I have ever seen. Makes me never want to go to a casino. Also, AMAZING work dude. Best video I've seen in a while. Subbed.
Altering the odds inherently constitutes cheating. Arranging a deck to reduce randomness constitutes cheating. I assure you, casinos would NOT be immune if they were caught running games that aren't random.
@@hellboy19991 Slot machines are random. It's not the randomness you'd infer from the symbols on the display, but it's still random. The overall Return To Player (RTP) is set by the State Gaming Commission and routinely audited, but casinos typically go a good bit higher because players get a "feel" for which casinos hit more often. For example, Atlantic City requires a minimum 83% RTP, but casinos there are typically in the 90s. For the physical reels you can only get the measured results from 3rd parties but for video slots you can look up the name and get the exact #. And sometimes there's an info screen that will tell you right in the game. As with all games, the house has an edge. But slanted odds doesn't mean it isn't random.
@@notme222The whole excuse was that they were rotating lucky cards. The casino was totally willing to help them "cheat" until those cards were actually lucky and not a superstition akin to the ones casinos exploit every day to sucker people. They got played by their own game and then threw a hissy fit
@@shenanigans2877 I think if a pit boss came over and said "Hey, we're going to pull the 10s out of this blackjack deck for luck" the players would have a lawsuit, even if they agreed to it at the time. You can use bullshit to convince someone to make a bad choice within the rules of the game, but not to alter the game. I think this is where your view is in conflict with the law. You're coming at it like "the game" is "let's see who can trick each other". Were that the system, if the casino agrees to their own detriment than so be it. But the law says that the game has fixed odds, based on randomized, unpredictable decks. Changing that to either side's benefit is a violation. If you want to "beat the casino", you have to do it by things that don't alter the odds. For example, if they offer a "matching bonus" for play and then you quit playing as soon as you hit the minimum, that's totally fair. Lots of people do this. They just aren't famous because (by definition) you can't do this a lot.
It's actually crazy... The Casinos blamed them for sorting the cards, but they agreed to the conditions. I don't understand it. Everybody knows (besides poker) it's always player vs casino when it comes to gambling. Some back-door agreements must have gone on. Good video, probably a 50 hour project!
Exactly.. Casino: "I don't see how that could help them, they're just stupidly superstitious, so sure we'll agree to that." Gambler: [wins] Casino: "Hey, no fair capitalizing on our arrogance!"
Amazing story. From my simpleton understanding, if they hadn’t fled when crockford replaced the shoe, I think this whole thing could’ve been, at best avoided, at least extended. The casino changed the shoe under suspicion. Ivy and sun confirmed the suspicion when they tried to cash out and run immediately after it was changed.
@@gadget2622 was probably an extremely tense situation at the time, Phil iveys the goat poker player but here you're talking about going heads up with the casino, with millions on the line, knowing that you are probably one of the few people in history whose playing a system where you've gained a statistical edge over THE CASINO whose entire institution is built on their edge. While he was playing he was being watched stringently by floor men, pit bosses, security, and the casino surveillance. I'm hindsight that would have been the most +ev play, considering but he's a poker pro purposely dumping money is not in his skillset. Him cashing out when he did, he was probably afraid every moment that theyd caught on😮
Nah, there's no bringing it back at that point. 1) If you try to set up the next shoe, they're watching closely as you identify which cards you want rotated. 2) If your streak ends with the new deck, you're just reinforcing the idea that there was something sketchy going on with the old one. Might as well just take a deck change as a sign that your luck is over. I bet it's a pretty common time for people to leave. The time to worry was earlier. If you always bet "player hand" before an 8 or 9 comes out, they're going to know it's not luck. Card counters are careful not to make their bets obvious. This despite a lower edge and no grounds for being sued. I did a rough calculation and the odds of that win streak are like one in a billion. You can't expect them not to notice.
At a riverboat casino I use to work at, the baccarat players colluded with a dealer. We have auto shuffle machines that keep 8 shuffled decks ready to go. She did not shuffle, she just re dealt the previous shoe and the players knew every card coming... IDK how much the casino paid out that day, but needless to say she got fired.
In a weird way, I kind of agree with the UK Supreme Court's reasoning, but not the cheating conclusion and their final decision. Social engineering IS a type of attack with malicious intent. In IT, social engineering is categorized as hacking, and hackers are criminals and their ill-gotten gains are often recovered. In which case, this is not cheating and more of an exploit of casino's weakness and complacency. And following that line of reasoning from UK Supreme Court, not cheating = payout from casino. Though one could also argue that in a gambling setting, both parties MUST HAVE malicious intent to win any money. p.s. great video, surprisingly well made and even though some section feels slow paced, its captivating enough that I finished it in one sitting. Keep up the good work!
That's a sensible interpretation. Also interesting is that the judge in the US case specifically said it's NOT cheating and it's NOT fraud, (and was not RICO because few things are) but it was a "breach of contract" with the casino.
@@notme222 Not a breach of contract. Ivey asked the casino to play baccarat with him under slightly modified rules. The casino agreed to play by those rules. That's the contract of the game they were playing.
@@notme222 it was not a breach of contract because the casino agreed to the rule changes before playing, the casino was the one who broke the breach of contact when they sued to get the money back. it was basically them trying to retroactively change the rules of the game and ignoring the fact that they were the ones who agreed to the new rules.
@@ddichny It's a breach of contract because if we sign a contract where I say we have to use this method of playing to flip a coin and you think the odds are 50/50, the odds are written as 50/50, but I know the odds are 60/40 because of the special coins we're using the contract is invalid. It'd only be a valid contract if I didn't know. It's not fraud and not cheating, but I am using deception for you to agree to a specific contract. This entire documentary proves that they were using edge sorting without the house knowing to get an advantage while deceiving the house.
The fact that they used cards with continuous patterns at real casinos is crazy. I used to think those were only in cheap decks that come with poker chips. All my decks have the same image with a white border on the back of the cards, so it's impossible to tell which is which.
I’ve never gambled in a casino or even bought a lottery ticket, but this video was so well done. I understood all your explanations, and was totally engaged in the story the whole time!
One of the most engaging casino videos I’ve ever watched. Was extremely surprised to see your subscriber/view count. I can absolutely see a good future with this channel if you keep up this quality.
Outstanding video bro. Easy to listen to, easy to follow, nicely paced, and well-written. The story never got bogged down in overly technical explanations, and there was just enough humor shining through to humanize everything. You've got a great voice for narration, too. Subscribed 👍
Okay but the “cheating device” being the automatic shuffler that in a way makes all of the house’s advantages is the funniest thing ever
If the casino agreed to all those requests that's on them.
Why am I not surprised that the judge sided with the casinos?
Thats not true and anyone that understands the odds of the cards knows that the casino doesn't *need* to fix anything. Their advantage is built in to the game..!!!
@@Twitledum9they don't need to, or they don't? Those are 2 different statements
@@Twitledum9 Not necessarily. Auto card shufflers are pretty much the most common defense against card counting.
"You can shear a sheep 100 times, but you can only skin it once"
Such a good quote
It's always the greed that gets you. If they had stopped at $10 million in profits, they would have gotten away with it.
In fact, the video states that others were on to the same idea, there might be people out there who made millions with edge sorting, but because they weren't greedy, they weren't the ones who were found out.
That is my all time favorite folksy saying and I've used it a few times. I don't remember if I heard it from the original source or through word of mouth, but it is timeless wisdom that applies to many situations and is easily understood.
the golden goose has the same lesson
You can really only shear a sheep about 10 times considering typical lifespan.
@@Lurch-Bot ok then you can milk a cow 100 times but you can only skin it once
Casinos will literally give you free alcohol to impair your mental state, but will immediately go cry to judge if you have too good vision
If you were offered a free lethal injection, would you take it? Your logic is impaired, leave.
@@spankyjeffro5320Why the hell are you defending casinos man? It's completely valid to point out the contradictions
@@spankyjeffro5320 the casino isn;t going to notice you little buddy
@@spankyjeffro5320 You can make the same argument back against the Casino my guy.
@@spankyjeffro5320the casino isn’t gonna fuck you bro
If they win its legal
If you win Its illegal
...or she !
That is literally what it boiled down to, I'm so mad.
@@snibbubzik3566 Yes, that's right ! Women need to be included too.
It's all so very Jewish. That's how they play the game of life. Projection , cheating lying.
Basically, how the selective prosecution of "law" works for the rich and powerful.
The Brogata suing for 5M more because they said " that's what he would have lost if he didn't use an advantage" tells everyone that Casinos are the ones cheating people out of their money.
It's not a secret, how would they afford to operate if the odds were even?
Dude, if you don't understand the difference between "stated rules have an advantage" and "cheating", you're gonna find yourself in jail sooner or later.
(Cut to @itzMoJo67 getting arrested for shoplifting and yelling "The store makes a profit when we buy stuff! Tells you who the _real_ thief is!")
No shit
That's how casinos make money. The fact there are so many comments like yours really says something about people.
@@agawtdangedbear i’m not saying casinos don’t have an edge, i’m saying the fact they are suing for extra because they didn’t win instead of losing is dumb. Which is why it got thrown out. I also find it ridiculous that Ivey lost his suit. He didn’t touch the cards, use any outside help, other than his partner, which is allowed. He found a way to gain a edge and won, just like counting cards.
Dude, the fact that Ivy lost in court is insane and corrupt. They basically retroactively changed the rules of the game that they had agreed to play with him and the courts were like. “Yep, that sounds good.“
Just another day of profit making corporations controlling the law as they see fit to always benefit them. Cant even admit to being fairly beaten
He agreed not to cheat though
@@jimbo573 and he held up that agreement
@@badams4982 courts in two countries and common sense globally agree he rigged the game.
@@jimbo573 yes, the courts have never sided with the rich casinos unjustly, I am sure
Casinos: use every single tactic to drain money from their gamblers
Phil and Sun: use one tactic to drain money from casinos.
Casinos: "But you can't do that! That's illegal!"
and somehow the courts on two continents agreed, no way those judges were unbiased
58:15
@@LudvigSegerfalk The horrors of greedy corporate judicial systems
So fukin real
Late stage capitalism is in effect.
Crockfords sealed their own fate when they decided not to pay out. Who is going to gamble when the punters think that the casino can on a whim decide just not to pay you?
UK high courts helped to shut down their 195 year old casino. 😂
Crazy how crockfords is actually closed now
Turns out even high rollers want to dream about winning!
All of the sad addicts, that's who.
The UK’s decision made no sense. How can the casino agree to rotate the cards upon request, then claim that rotating cards is cheating?
The contract is you're supposed to lose
Because the casino was too incompetent to know this was a way to identify cards and get a huge edge over the casino. Or more likely, they knew this was possible but that if the couple lost they could keep the money and if the couple won they can refuse to pay them and still keep the money.
All gamblers think they have a system, the issue is this one was backed by math.....
Well, if you listened. The judge said "they duped the croupier", implying that they used/abused the ignorance into tricking them to agree with something that would make it possible.
Whether it's cheating or not, is subjective. An argument can be made for both.
@@biglollol is it not dealers job to NOT agree to these terms or deny doing things the rotating cards upon the players request?
This is like playing a sport for money, asking a ref to do something which gives you an edge, then they do it knowing they could be providing an edge... The player isn't at fault, the ref made the wrong call.
This is exactly the type of bootlickin take that keeps billionaires rich and prevent anyone from exploiting a mistake they made... While we are continually exploited with no recourse or chance to take a win? Right.
Crockfords shutting down and blaming the lack of high rollers 😆 gee I wonder if it had anything to do with them not paying out.
I was wondering that too. In any case, I think their reputation would have been better served by paying out the $11 million and thanking Ivey for dramatically highlighting a loophole in their system to be fixed. $11mill is pocket change for a successful casino.
They lost more I am so fkin glad they got their own karma
Such cases backfires on Casinos reputation for being leechers and ultimstely not attractIng other high rollers and also missing out on causual losers that they could attract by doing huge payouts to few winners like lotteries. marketing, loss big but win small but more..
That was the best part. Lmao
@@mechamicrothey didn’t lose anything. whoever owned that place may have shut it down, but they didn’t file for bankruptcy.
Love how when casinos take millions from people it’s “business” but when people use skill or knowledge to make money it’s a “heist” 😂
Titles are meant to grab a person attention. "Clickbait" has existed since before the internet
@@mentalpopcorn2304 not talking about the title. I’m talking about how casino owners are hypocrites.
Even if it's just skill etc they kick you out of a casino if you're winning. But I agree, they'd make card counting illegal too if they could.
There's so many actual cheats is crazy tho
The winners always rewrite history. "One country's terrorist is another country's freedom fighter."
Same with this. Bunch of hypocritical losers
@@daviddavis4885All members of the bourgeois are. They will steal everything from you but cry if you take a pittance.
that chris moneymaker story is so crazy that its like it was all a set up, but the people setting it up were like "this is too unlikely to happen, people will accuse it of being a set up", and so the solution was to give him the name Moneymaker so that the idea of it being set up would sound ridiculous
was it set up?
up was it set?
Set up it was?
Huh?!?!?!
>makes new channel
>makes one hour very well researched and well edited gambling video essay
>does not elaborate
im not even suprised anymore, this happens like every day, everyone and their mom is making incredible well edited hour long videos i dont understand it
its AI bro
This was my initial thought, but even if ai is used, its done very very well.
In my mind its not the typical ai channel.
@BoneBoyYo
@@BoneBoyYo no it is not, ai often contains odd phrasings which would make people realize somethings off, the script here seems to be written very well
@@smoceany9478 cooked
I really do think considering what he did as cheating is insane, feels more like the courts bailing out the casinos for making terrible business decisions, the second he asked to use the same decks they should have known something was up, they could have denied his requests
Yeah, I don't mean to come off as "casinos always bad," but in this case it really was a case of them wanting to have their cake and eat it too. They willingly changed the rules of the game to favor Ivey and then complained to the courts about the results of that very action.
Yeah I was upset when I heard the results of those court cases.
@@Run_The_Numbersno no, it’s fine, you can say ‘casinos always bad’ coz they are. And this is coming from an avid gambler
I'm sorry to defend casinos, but if you make a decision where you are being defrauded, should you be accountable?
Say I ask you to give me $1000 and I will play a game at your house.
I don't.
Is it your fault you got defrauded?
Same deal
@@accountnamewithheld it’s the casinos fault for not knowing they could gain an edge from their policies. It’s the same thing as card counting. They didn’t use any outside devices or tools to defraud them.
What a joke of the courts.
The casino themselves turned the cards.
to this day i cannot understand it
@@maxaffe3195it's called bribery. Casino accidentally gave him money probably lol
@@maxaffe3195it's the UK. Here the rich can literally prosecute people privately with a private prosecution.
@@maxaffe3195 It’s easy. Ivey and Sun were misrepresenting why they wanted the cards turned, by claiming it was due to superstition which is wasn’t, that is just fact, they did not want those turned for that purpose. You can agree or disagree and hate the casinos as much as you want, but even the smallest deception when it comes to gambling will always be viewed as cheating from a legal standpoint.
The U.K is a corrupt and unjust country where the wealthy rule, it’s been like that for centuries
This technique is actually called “edging” and I’ve been kicked out for it many times. I love edging in the casino
Haha best comment
Edgel0rd... 😂
You cannot convince me that these judges were not paid off by the casinos to rule in their favor.
Its obvious
the world its a ghetto the 1% really owns all of it
It's way deeper than a simple payoff. Borgata is owned by MGM International who's major stakeholders are Blackrock and Vanguard group who are also major stakeholders in Apple, Google, Microsoft , Capital One and every major defense contractor
He literally went to court against the richest people on earth.
You don't have to pay when judge don't really care and rule in local wealth favor
this is why I refuse to go o Vegas
So the moral of the story is you're only welcome in casinos if you plan to lose all your money. What a massive injustice.
Yeah I love how their entire argument was basically "Well he was winning, so that's unfair 😢."
@@BWeManX Yes, statistically speaking, who is to say they didn't just have that one in a million lucky spree? Maybe the edge sorting did nothing, and they just were in the 0.1% of big winners?
I make so much money by never going to casinos lol
@@Maxime_K-G Just because you invent numbers that seem big to you doesn't make them accurate. "0.1%" and "one in a million" are off by a factor of 1000. The odds of a $30 million win on 0.9894 play with $100k hands is less than 1 in a billion. (And most of their hands were lower value than that.)
I'm not commenting at all on whether or not edge sorting is cheating. I'm just offended that you said "statistically speaking" and then proceeded to treat math like a $5 whore.
It's the Casinos justice doesn't exist there. They don't say the house always wins because the Casinos are fair.
This video made me so angry. I'm an engineer by trade and I generally work for a smaller companies though I have worked for some of the big tech giants in the past. There's always something when you're dealing with these companies and it's absurdly unfair. This saga is essentially a distillation of how these conglomerates basically can get away with manipulating reality based on their own whims.
This makes me livid too! It's absolutely WILD that the casino agreed to the all his requests and rules of the game and allowed it all when they thought they would be the winners, but then they cry cheating and call their own automatic shuffler "a cheating device". I know US judges are corrupt as hell, the corruption here goes from local police all the way up to the Supreme Court. The UK couldn't let a man from America come in and win 8 million pounds and make them look foolish. They had to try and save face somehow, but it's all that much more obvious to me now how corrupt all these Government systems are. Real life is more unbelievable than fiction sometimes. I'm not even a big fan of Phil Ivey or anything. I only know him from poker, and I personally like Daniel Negranu and think he's actually a better player, but Ivey absolutely deserved to win all $20+ million he got sued for. This was the equivalent of agreeing to a bet on a game and welching by getting Daddy government to say it's unfair for a casino to loose.
@catch22frubert it might be more about getting caught than anything.
@@bennyxd199getting caught doing what exactly … What did he do that was illegal ? Considering all he did was request certain concessions that the casinos weren’t obligated to agree to yet they did because they where trying to bleed him for everything 💀
@MJisAGlorifiedDemarDerozen exactly. It goes both ways. He had his chance to walk away and lay low. Let's try to find some examples of others who haven't been caught to this extent? This is fairly recent in the grand scheme of casino surveillance, which this video a great job of painting a picture of with its early mentions.
Rigging the odds towards the casinos - Nothing wrong there.
Players shift the odds towards them - You can't play here anymore!
Ivey: is it okay if you rotate the this card? My friend here holds the belief it wil increase our chance of winning.
Casino: oh, sure
The rotated card: increases their chance of winning.
Casino: you lied to us!
In Portugal we say "A thief that steals from a thief deserves a 100 years of pardon". Man should've gotten his winnings if the courts weren't being paid by the casinos themselves.
nope
casinos pay lots of taxes
casinos create many many good jobs
@@feelinghealingfrequences7179 The casinos were in no danger of going out of business because Ivey won a few million from them.
So what? if you steal money and give it to someone else means you didnt steal that money?e@@feelinghealingfrequences7179
are you really defending casinos
@@feelinghealingfrequences7179 drug dealers gave me motivation to sell my kids in exchange of crack, great people helping me beat my procrastination problem
He essentially was reprimanded for breaking a rule that never existed until after they realized they needed a rule
Thank you everyone, I’m finally a 10k Andy. Can we get 15? lol
Spot on, thanks for watching Nick.
He deserved to get his money, the casinos literally did it for him, they should’ve just not given special treatment
@@whacky2547yup. And that “special treatment” is not because they’re nice, it’s because they expect to get even more money out of the gambler.
@@1stGenRex fr
Trying to harpoon a whale and they got tricked
@@whacky2547right??! Like it’s THEM who CHOSED to do that
1. Maybe the casino shouldn't set up special requests for players
2. Why don't they just change the cards used with plain backs?!
I'm on his side....screw the casinos for being so dumb
@@blahmcblahface3965 Casinos are greedy. If the Borgata/Crockfords doesn’t grant special requests, another casino would.
That’s an excellent point. I think it’s because edge sorting barely existed prior to this event. There were some obscure stories of people using it, but it wasn’t at all a thing on casino’s radars. Once this happened, some casinos did alter their card designs and the card manufacturers like Gemaco (Borgata actually sued them during this saga, it just wasn’t relevant to the video’s story) changed their manufacturing practices.
But because edge sorting requires the casino to grant so many requests, they can just not grant those requests anymore and will have protected themselves.
blank cards r really easy to mark, tables r dirty so sometimes stuff just sticks to them. that could mark them and make them easy to identify so they have patterns instead
Ok, just pick a pattern that has a solid edge
@@Darkshadow64540 When that its slightly off center its easier to tell than a pattern that goes to the edges
@@zym6687easy solution is to never repeat a deck if they are unwilling to pay the winnings of an edge sorter. That's my biggest problem with this case. The casino doesn't assume risk of this advantage play because they just won't pay out if they can prove after the fact that edge sorting occurred. If the advantage players get extremely unlucky the casino is perfectly happy to keep their winnings. I seriously think that with precedents like these, gamblers should be able to sue the casino for losses after they are over served with alcohol. Getting your patrons drunk to inhibit their ability to control their impulses is much worse than taking advantage of a casino's oversight. Especially as we already know how addictive gambling is by itself.
BRO, YOU'VE ONLY GOT ONE VIDEO?????? THIS IS SUCH GOOD QUALITY, I'M EXCITED FOR MORE.
Sun sure did learn from that experience where she was the one to get in trouble because it was her name that borrowed the money. Having the games played under Ivey's name meant that _he_ was the one who ended up fighting those lawsuits.
Eh, they went after Ivey because he was the whale. He had the money, she more than likely did not.
So we're just gonna go over the fact that it was Ivey's decision to keep playing despite Sun's offer to stop so they wouldn't get caught
@@YantoWest Sure, in the second half Ivey was the one who had the reigns and steered them into getting caught. But Sun was the one who came up with the strategy and approached Ivey. So if you look at the whole time, it sounds like they were roughly equal partners.
And from the Casino's and law enforcement's view they both performed one half of the exploit (sun analyzing the card backs and Ivey placing the bets), so they both should have been sued.
If two people get caught stealing from a warehouse together, and the guy says "sorry officer, I convinced her to do it; she wouldn't have done it without me.", then both would still get charged - at least I hope so.
@@YantoWestshe would have run that til she was an old lady.
Must've taken a lot of effort to make this video. Don't worry...yt put this is my recommended so the views should be coming soon
@@blahmcblahface3965 thank you very much bro. I’m glad you enjoyed it
This the calm before the storm
Same
Congrats buddy you did it. Someone in three years reply to my comment
Same - amazing video!! You deserve more views
Genuinely misread 1.9k views as 1.9 million when clicking on it, and believed it till I saw at the end. Deserves so many more views, great video don’t stop
Best comment yet, thank you very much Jack.
@@Run_The_Numbers1.9M soon enough good job man
245k now, so it won't take much longer at this rate😊
I subscribed because of this comment , some youtubers don’t deserve to stay in the shadow
@@redaoualla9703the vast majority low view videos are a blight to my feed. Im no stranger to finding low subs channels sky rocket after seeing their great production/editing quality and storytelling. This guy has the skill to get a few hundred thousand subs by next year if he keeps improving from this level onward.
I always avoided casino like the plague. This whole scene is utterly discomforting. Great video btw :)
There is no way that this hasn't been written out and sold as a screenplay to Hollywood. Congratulations on a quality documentary there are so few of them out there.
As long as it won't be made by a shithole director, the potential this has as a captivating movie is enormous
lol
The casinos bought the judges, they don't mind paying a studio to hold the option rights and tank a movie.
@@osco4311 Who knows what other "dirt" those groups had on these high profile men. They have millions to spend on investigation and finding out the unknowable. They robbed him because of their mistake.
Did you finish the video? It stated that a movie is in production towards the end.
Shame Phil lost his cases. Can't believe that requests granted by the casino can be overlooked in a court system like that! They knew what they were being asked to do, they were foolish to not spend more time thinking on it and were too greedy to say no. I bet if the shoe was on the other foot the casino would STILL win their case.
Great documentary, loved every minute of it!
Thanks Robert, totally agree with your take.
Thats what I find to be bullshit too. They chose to accept. Their greed should have cost them
In fact, everyone of us that have lost money at casinos by playing at a disadvantage should now sue casinos because they don’t post that you’re playing at a disadvantage.
Turns out it's illegal to be better at gaming than casinos
@@Run_The_NumbersI disagree, the supreme judge illustrated well. If you use deceit to put rules and requests that would alter the nature of the game, that’s cheating because it’s fraudulent in nature, whether the casino realizes it or not.
Being able to know what the cards are while face down because of a manipulation goes against the rules of the game. If they were able to do it without the dealer manipulating the cards, it’d be fair game.
I’m not trying to defend Casinos and their scummy tactics.
Casinos before lawmakers: “Poker is a game of skill!”
Casinos when a player develops and uses a skill to help them win more: “This is an outrage!”
Exactly. I was really suprised when I found out what card counting was, because from context clues I assumed it to be a form of card marking, because what card counting actually is was how I assume one played correctly
Casinos are actually the ones standing in the way of poker being considered a skill game. That way they can keep their monopoly on Ir.
Skills are banned
But poker IS game of skill. Baccarat is *NOT* poker.
@@ShadowManceri If card counting isn't allowed, then there's no skill involved in poker. It's 100% RNG.
What a wonderful documentary! I did not think I was going to watch a poker documentary today, but here we are. I remember watching WSOP at my parents' house at 3am probably 20 years ago and he was instantly my favorite poker player. And he was always playing it seemed like.
There is no shame in "stealing" from a Casino.
Why ? Isn’t stealing against the law ?
@@michaelblankenau6598it’s no more stealing from them then they’re stealing from you
@@michaelblankenau6598it's not stealing if you play their game and win
What the fuck man yeah it was law to burn witches, dont you have your own mind? Do you have to be told what something is by a power source? Have your own opinions@@michaelblankenau6598
Morality and law often don't go hand to hand
This is the reason why I still love YT. Small, real UA-camrs like you make the platform. Great video.
Is he a small UA-camr?
"The house always win, except when it doesnt. And when it doesn't, it rewrites the rules." If you ever make a merch store at any point in time, make this a poster and i will buy it.
The house always wins. Either in the casino, or in the lawsuit against you for winning too much.
Could also be said about today's politics.
@@Po0pF4c3 thats why i want a poster of it
You watched a UA-cam video about the topic and feel comfortable accusing the UK courts of corruption?
Think about it friend, you didn't review the laws around this issue or even read the ruling and you feel comfortable offering a strong opinion.
If you want the laws to represent your will, you can't check out of the system. If the casinos control the judiciary, you have to prove that.
@@jenispizz2556 i'm not even from the UK bro
In vegas, all advantage play cases were automatically thrown out. This sets a dangerous precedent where casinos can accuse anyone of cheating via card counting etc and take you to court over it
George Carlin sums it up well: "It's a big club, and you ain't in it."
Perfectly said. Thanks for watching Patrick
Fucking perfect
you're god damn right
Actually a very small club. Mega elites...😮
Incredible work.
God I hate casinos but I hate the courts even more when they so willingly let themselves get bent over by them.
Thank you very much! Appreciate you taking your time to watch
Yep. Casinos are built off being unfair so when they try to pull unfair shit you can't be too surprised. But courts are supposed to be fair. And they're clearly not
To rule that a gambler has an obligation to provide a "fair game" to a casino is the most UTTERLY INSANE thing i have heard in my life. To suggest that while every game inside of a casino is rigged against the gambler and the very construction of the building is designed to increase the amount of time a gambler spends gambling, meanwhile the casino ACTIVELY INEBRIATES HIM. That the gambler has an obligation to provide the casino with a "fair game” is so absurd, stupid and ridiculous that I genuinely do not think that a person with a sound and unbiased mind could make such a ruling. I think that judge was either bribed, or somehow mentally deficient. Either he was high of his ass when he made that ruling, or he has early-onset dementia, or he is just a MASSIVE idiot. It is so completely ridiculous, i can't find the words to describe it.
Yes the judge was surely corrupt and part of the boys club.
He probably found a crate with a few million on his porch one morning, which might have distracted his judgement slightly, shall we say
Exactly. If something is against illegal, then have it written up explicitly. They are like the kid in elementary school who added rules as the game goes on to ensure they always win
well said.
The quality of this world is off the fucking charts man! Not only did you share a story that I had never heard of, it was also over something I know basically nothing about and yet thanks to your words I was able to keep up perfectly fine with everything they were doing. And even still you kept the story exciting on top of that! This is truly incredible and I wish you all the subscribers. I'm sure your 2.5 MILLION views are more ecidence than my words, but i wanted to share them still.
As soon as you said "Chris Moneymaker" a big smile crept across my face. What a fucking legend. I remember watching that crazy hand against Ivey when I was a kid, too. Only 8 minutes in and I'm already having a blast remembering some guys
"Can I rotate the cards?"
Casino: "Yes!"
*actually wins money*
"Hey! You can't rotate the cards and WIN! That's cheating!" ?????
Casino: "Yes, as long as it doesn't alter the odds."
...
(continue with your script.)
@@notme222 "Can I rotate the cards? It will increase our odds. My partner wants to employ feng shui to assure 运气 for great winnings. "
"Yes! I'm sure it will bring you great luck!"
...
(continue with the script)
@@notme222 Casino: "Man, they're stupid to think that rotating the cards will improve their luck, sure, we'll agree to them doing that."
Gambler: "Man, the casino is stupid to not realize it really DOES improve our luck on subsequent deals, just as we openly said!"
Casino: "We're suing you for our negative opinion of what you honestly said you were doing when we agreed to it."
It wasn't even that. it was "Can *you* rotate the cards?"... AND THEY DID IT
@@ddichny That's a great point. The whole superstition performance involves expressly stating that you're doing all this stuff to help you win
i learned how to count cards while playing rummy in prison. rummy is super easy to count cards because 3/4ths of the deck will either be on the table or in the players hands. the more turns the easier it is to read what the other players are holding and what is still in the deck yet to be drawn. i had so many soups the mexicans called me "pozolito"
😂 my man
Kudos. Inspiring& triumphant win against the exponentially oppressive system.
You learn how to count cards playing spades my boy
sure you could do it with spades but it'd require more working memory while playing. not the *easiest* method
I feel like that's gotta be part of the strategy though, just like how counting is the strategy for playing dominoes
Amazing production. Well done.
At first, I felt bad that Sun wasn't getting credit for the system and that the courts seemed to say that it was Ivey's system, but it's really funny that she's getting away with doing the same thing just because Phil Ivey's the name that was in the headlines.
Thing is all the gambling was done under his name so she’s not liable at all, technically she was just his “friend” sitting with him
I bet you anything that they haven't gone after her bc it's turned into a "Moneymaker" situation
She posts her casino wins to inexperienced gamblers on TikTok, and I bet some of them walk into casinos to try to pull off her tricks themselves
it’s like when her friends didn’t pay her $100,000 tab - if that story’s legit, she likely harboured some bad feelings from that and worked to never be tricked like that again
honestly thats good. She didnt wanna go all out and she deserved the money after how she got arrested
@@annikreinblut8147 14:47
The BobbyBroccoli of gambling. This was a treat to watch, the research and incredible storytelling kept me hooked the entire time. Super excited for what you’ll produce next, keep it up.
I came to say exactly this too!
Same, some presentation upgrades and this guy is going into that 10milion view video every 6 months kind of guy
It’s so nice to know crockfords went out of business
This video was incredible. I was shocked to see this was your first video. Can't wait to see what you have in store next
All the judges were in the casino’s pocket 100%. And the fact that the one casino had the audacity to sue him for the money he would have lost playing without the advantage is a whole new level of hypocrisy. The casino’s idea of “fair play” is a complete fucking joke.
No reason not to ask for it as the casino, it's at least facially plausible and no downside. I'd be a little surprised if the entire UK Supreme Court was paid off by the casino to rule this way. Their reasoning makes sense, although as a policy matter I do think they should have ruled the other way.
If you win by walking in for the first time in your life, having never gambled, threw down a million dollars on green in roulette and win, they'll try to cry that something was unfair.
Casinos are the biggest sore losers I've ever seen, and I say that as someone who used to go to fighting game tournaments where "Yeah, well, my controller wasn't working" is a regular excuse.
I read a story once where someone hit a jackpot on a machine, took a photo of it, and the casino said "Oh that was just a computer bug" like that's somehow her problem. Pay her out, update the software, and get over it. It's not her job to keep your shit running right. Needless to say, she lawyered up because the only time the casino has to pay someone they say "My controller is broken!" is a load of bullshit.
Casinos will lose fair and square, and then jump through the most insane hoops to call someone a cheater. They'll never admit defeat, and it's only okay when they do it. It's hypocrisy, it's disgusting, and they shouldn't be allowed to get away with this shit.
I'm tired of these sore losers crying and whining that every time they lose is unfair because this bullshit or that bullshit and why should they ever have to pay anyone when they lose? The one way street bullshit needs to die.
This cynical attitude is why we see such decay in democracies.
You watched a UA-cam video on this topic and felt comfortable accusing the UK judiciary of serious corruption. You didn't review the laws around Casinos in the UK or even listen to more than a minute of the ruling.
People who thumbs upped the original comment have to do better if you want the laws to reflect your wishes. Giving up and checking out is a sure fire way to make sure they don't.
@jenispizz2556 what are you yapping about?
@@dysmaruuramsyd3233 The original commenter said something serious in obvious ignorance.
That quickness to unfairly judge is exactly what empowers bad actors to rise under populist flags.
If people want to see a positive change in our political system, they need to plug in to it, not drop out and say it's fucked beyond redemption.
Is that a better explanation, or were you just being rude to me by sniping me with hollow criticism, coward?
If you disagree with something I said, why don't you stand tall on that and make an actual argument?
"...That Ivey and Sun violated their obligation... ...to provide the casino with a Fair Gaming Experience"
It's just business and no cheating was established - meaning it was absolutely and completely fair under that premise
the really perverted thing is that they did provide the casino with a Fair Gaming Experience" The were not guaranteed to win (proven by the fact they lost in their 1st session and Ivy thot it was a scam) they just had an edge... exactly as the casinos offer to players... but they players don't know how big the edge is.. esp when the casinos do things like get them drunk (hardly a "fair" gaming experience, btw) sick rulings
The gambler is obligated to provide the casino, an entity that literally cannot lose with a "fair gaming experience"? Is this a joke?
The title of the video is interesting. Turns out it wasn't the greatest heist on a casino that was done legally. It was the greatest heist casinos did on an individual, abusing the corrupt legal system.
The whole setting up of specific conditions under false pretense to make their scheme work meets the definition of fraud, both in the UK and the US. They are lucky they weren't charged criminally. It is fundamentally no different than someone trying to get you to install malware with a phishing attack, pretending to be your bank. Just because you let them do it doesn't make it legal.
I also agree the legal system is corrupt but they literally didn't have to be in this case for the casinos to keep their money. There are other cases where what you assert is true. Cases where casinos have obviously bought off corrupt judges to avoid paying tens of millions of dollars. The reason I don't play any electronic games in a casino is because they routinely claim software glitches to avoid paying. Meanwhile, it is much harder to weasel out of paying out on a table game. They have cameras everywhere and you can subpoena that footage to use in your lawsuit against them for not paying out. Saying 'oops, we lost it' doesn't fly with a casino. If they genuinely believed you were cheating, they would keep it. This is why, if you are counting cards (in your head) and they catch on (more to counting cards than just the math), all they can do is ask you to leave. They can't even legally keep your winnings. Use a computer to count cards and you're going to prison for grand larceny.
If their video poker is that buggy, why was it certified by the Nevada Gaming Commission?
Corruption is when people do stuff I don't like. The more stuff I don't like, the more corruption.
@@meepk633 No. Corruption, as an example, is when established rules are selectively enforced. Corruption is favoritism.
Do you suck casinos often?
@@D-Vinko Name a single rule that was selectively enforced here.
@@meepk633
Disregard of the 6 month statute of limitations with no explanation (at least in the video).
Reclassification of an automatic shuffler, the tool literally used to insure fair play, as a cheating device.
Withholding payment until after an investigation is conducted. (The “rule” as explained in the video is that the casinos payout fairly earned winnings. 54:53) if you don’t think he won fairly then we didn’t watch the same video? 1:00:12
Those are 3 of the many selectively enforced rules. The many selectively enforced rules were almost entirely the reason the casinos won the law suits. It’s like you weren’t even paying attention.
I don't gamble and have never understood how playing cards worked but I just sat through this, what an awesome video!
Every time OP said “present day” then showed a year of 2012, my brain went “Huh?”
I get the same jolt when the medical cases channel goes, "...causing him to go to the emergency room, where we are now," even when the case history retelling goes on for weeks or years after that.
Noticed the same thing; sus as fuck
@@amgokan It is fishy, but unless he is using multiple documentaries or a documentary+additional research, why wa he talking about 2017 events
reupload
@@amgokanai mayhaps?
I am not into gambling, card games, or casinos at all, and this video is thoroughly entertaining and interesting.
Same, I find it all boring
The irony is that the casino would gladly have paid much more than $11 million to a consultant who analyzed their setup and informed them of any such flaws so they could tighten up their gaming tables, but damned if they'll let one gambler keep $11 million by highlighting the same weakness to them.
6:45
Great inclusion of a Sunny Day Real Estate track
Just wanted to say this is a top notch, thrilling and exciting documentary that deserves real professional recognition. Great pacing, great story-telling, great style.
The video at the end is very cute - the interviewer was completely caught off-guard when Ivey smoothly asked the question back haha
Agreed, it made me crack up when I first saw it. Thanks for watching.
Even with a wife and kids, rizz game still intact
@@Run_The_Numberslove this video so much thanks for making this gem
The delicious double-standard of rigorously establishing a well-understood, transparent, and nevertheless tolerated institutional advantage, then having a problem with individual advantage and even flipping the table on which they were legitimately beaten ethically mandates defrauding casinos.
They should make a movie with actors out of this video.
You mate are amazing. So happy yt actually recommend this to me randomly!
Congratulations for your amazing script and narration. Great editing too!
It's complete and utter BS that casinos can dupe people by drugging them but when they outsmart themselves it is they who cry foul.
It makes me mad that he lost these court battles, but he got greedy in London, and got bit by the sheep he went to skin. Fantastic video btw.
1:04:56 the audacity of these people lmfao
Definitely bribed
Dude! YT put this video on my feed. Close to the end, i went to your channel thinking I'd find more excellent content (and wondered how I hadn't seen you before!). Surprised to learn this was the only vid, but i am sure it is simply the first of many! Well done!
Alright, imma need at least 3 more gambling documentaries from you bro
Being an advantage player is a rare and difficult line of work for sure. Casinos happily throw free drinks at customers to sit and gamble away, not caring if that individual has a problem, or can afford to lose the money they’re putting up, but god forbid you jump out of your chair to celebrate a big win, it can be voided immediately and you won’t be paid, god forbid you know how to turn the house’s huge advantage to a single digit advantage in your favor, not breaking any rules to do so. They can threaten you, intimidate you, cause you grief and even refuse to pay you, tell local police to harass you on their behalf. It really is a cruel joke and why no one should give them a dime of their hard earned money.
The house advantage isn’t “huge” baccarat has a 1.06% house edge in most cases. What you’re calling “small” is 4x larger than the standard house edge and that’s worst case scenario for this strategy. The truth is this is fraud and actually cheating, not just writing a few rules that boost your odds by 1% like most casinos do.
@@sparks6177 "can someone think of the poor casinos 😢"
Bootlicker
@@sparks6177 keep riding the casinos dick bro. The casino AGREED to his demands and he didnt even rotate the cards himself. He won fairly.
Casinos are for idiots only.
You'd think if they wanted to continue the long game why didn't they lose a session once in a while
100% takehomes are a sure red flag
They didn't want to continue for a long time because they suspected the casinos would catch on at some point, but I agree maybe losing some money would have been a smarter play
It would just prolong the inevitable.
Even if they lost, they wouldn't be in the negative, which is what makes it suspicious, because you should be in the negative in the long run.
What they should have done, is know when to stop.
Plenty of casinos in the world, I'm sure they wouldn't mind losing a few mill.
But they put on heat on a few ones, and yeah, you only need 1 mouth to start talking until all casinos put their eyes on you.
@@leoroccaforte7487 21:56
This video was amazing storytelling from start to finish, I was hooked. Thank you for this amazing content!
Greed vs. Greed is the perfect summary of this saga. But I do think, that Casino's should not cry foul when their whole business model is built on them having a government protected edge.
What an interesting story and amazing work with this documentary. Wasn't planning to watch 1h 15min video on one sitting but I was captivated by the whole setting.
I am 46 minutes into the video and i just noticed that this video only has 36k views and the channel only has 561 subscribers. This channel is so underrated.
Thanks, glad you liked it!
130k views and 1.74k subscribers 3 days later :) congrats!
133 with 1.78 good
Now 1.4 mil with 21k subs 😅
This video was great but lowkey my favorite part was when you used half-life music in the background at around 47 min. I was painting minis while listening to the video and I had to stop what I was doing cause I recognized the bass synth, i turned up the volume to get a better listen and it made me smile ear to ear. Very nice touch on an incredible video, keep up the good work!
Ivey makes a casino his own cash cow for a few nights.
Government: Back off, that's mine.
All the comments arguing about player vs. casino... this is the one comment with the real perspective, lol.
The disappointment of going to your channel for more of these incredible documentaries and seeing this is the first makes me even more excited to be part of the beginning of great things to come. Keep it up man 🔥
"So just keep that in mind, the most popular and over-saturated method of advantage play has graphs that look like that" is such a good way to wrap that segment
Oh damn what a rush of nostalgia from the subtle BO2 music at 54:42, very nice!
>plays to win
>"cheater"
Honestly suprised if casinos don't end up making far more than their money back on people falsely thinking they can outsmart the casino because of stories like this.
Pretty much. I've met "good" gamblers who still barely tread water in terms of lifetime wins/losses. It is crazy crazy hard to beat these motherfuckers. If you do they find every way to keep you going because every hot streak ends.
This is one of the most egregious things I have ever seen. Makes me never want to go to a casino. Also, AMAZING work dude. Best video I've seen in a while. Subbed.
Appreciate that Rudy, thanks for taking the time to watch it.
As a New Jersey resident and native, your lead in to the Borgata was absolutely hilarious. Atlantic City is truly a great punchline.
I had no idea that beating the casino inherently constitutes cheating. And that casinos are inherently immune from the same legal standard.
Altering the odds inherently constitutes cheating. Arranging a deck to reduce randomness constitutes cheating. I assure you, casinos would NOT be immune if they were caught running games that aren't random.
@@notme222 you mean slotmachines?
@@hellboy19991 Slot machines are random. It's not the randomness you'd infer from the symbols on the display, but it's still random.
The overall Return To Player (RTP) is set by the State Gaming Commission and routinely audited, but casinos typically go a good bit higher because players get a "feel" for which casinos hit more often.
For example, Atlantic City requires a minimum 83% RTP, but casinos there are typically in the 90s. For the physical reels you can only get the measured results from 3rd parties but for video slots you can look up the name and get the exact #. And sometimes there's an info screen that will tell you right in the game.
As with all games, the house has an edge. But slanted odds doesn't mean it isn't random.
@@notme222The whole excuse was that they were rotating lucky cards. The casino was totally willing to help them "cheat" until those cards were actually lucky and not a superstition akin to the ones casinos exploit every day to sucker people. They got played by their own game and then threw a hissy fit
@@shenanigans2877 I think if a pit boss came over and said "Hey, we're going to pull the 10s out of this blackjack deck for luck" the players would have a lawsuit, even if they agreed to it at the time. You can use bullshit to convince someone to make a bad choice within the rules of the game, but not to alter the game.
I think this is where your view is in conflict with the law. You're coming at it like "the game" is "let's see who can trick each other". Were that the system, if the casino agrees to their own detriment than so be it.
But the law says that the game has fixed odds, based on randomized, unpredictable decks. Changing that to either side's benefit is a violation.
If you want to "beat the casino", you have to do it by things that don't alter the odds. For example, if they offer a "matching bonus" for play and then you quit playing as soon as you hit the minimum, that's totally fair. Lots of people do this. They just aren't famous because (by definition) you can't do this a lot.
It's actually crazy... The Casinos blamed them for sorting the cards, but they agreed to the conditions. I don't understand it. Everybody knows (besides poker) it's always player vs casino when it comes to gambling. Some back-door agreements must have gone on. Good video, probably a 50 hour project!
Exactly.. Casino: "I don't see how that could help them, they're just stupidly superstitious, so sure we'll agree to that."
Gambler: [wins]
Casino: "Hey, no fair capitalizing on our arrogance!"
BobbyBroccoli Fans: “we will watch your career with great interest.”
Ah, the background music reminds me of BobbyBroccoli
BOBBYBROCCOLIMENTIONED!!
I’ve known about this story for years, and no one I told ever believed me. Thank you so much for this video. Now I know I’m not crazy.
Amazing story. From my simpleton understanding, if they hadn’t fled when crockford replaced the shoe, I think this whole thing could’ve been, at best avoided, at least extended. The casino changed the shoe under suspicion. Ivy and sun confirmed the suspicion when they tried to cash out and run immediately after it was changed.
Especially when there was nothing stopping them from just restarting the system with the new shoe
At the very least lose enough hands to make it look like the reason you got up and left was that your hot streak was finally over.
@@gadget2622 was probably an extremely tense situation at the time, Phil iveys the goat poker player but here you're talking about going heads up with the casino, with millions on the line, knowing that you are probably one of the few people in history whose playing a system where you've gained a statistical edge over THE CASINO whose entire institution is built on their edge. While he was playing he was being watched stringently by floor men, pit bosses, security, and the casino surveillance. I'm hindsight that would have been the most +ev play, considering but he's a poker pro purposely dumping money is not in his skillset. Him cashing out when he did, he was probably afraid every moment that theyd caught on😮
Nah, there's no bringing it back at that point.
1) If you try to set up the next shoe, they're watching closely as you identify which cards you want rotated.
2) If your streak ends with the new deck, you're just reinforcing the idea that there was something sketchy going on with the old one.
Might as well just take a deck change as a sign that your luck is over. I bet it's a pretty common time for people to leave. The time to worry was earlier. If you always bet "player hand" before an 8 or 9 comes out, they're going to know it's not luck.
Card counters are careful not to make their bets obvious. This despite a lower edge and no grounds for being sued. I did a rough calculation and the odds of that win streak are like one in a billion. You can't expect them not to notice.
@@notme222 Exactly.
Imagine being a judge and ruling in favor of blood-sucking casinos lol
At a riverboat casino I use to work at, the baccarat players colluded with a dealer. We have auto shuffle machines that keep 8 shuffled decks ready to go. She did not shuffle, she just re dealt the previous shoe and the players knew every card coming... IDK how much the casino paid out that day, but needless to say she got fired.
lmao
that just seems kinda stupid
Excellent video, the best I’ve seen for at least 5 years, brings me back to when I first discovered this type of story!
Gotta love when a video gets recommended for seemingly no other reason than its a damn good video, thanks
Want to really hurt a casino? ….don’t go there.
Nailed it perfectly 👌
I don’t give those thieves the opportunity to take any of my hard earned money
In a weird way, I kind of agree with the UK Supreme Court's reasoning, but not the cheating conclusion and their final decision. Social engineering IS a type of attack with malicious intent. In IT, social engineering is categorized as hacking, and hackers are criminals and their ill-gotten gains are often recovered. In which case, this is not cheating and more of an exploit of casino's weakness and complacency. And following that line of reasoning from UK Supreme Court, not cheating = payout from casino.
Though one could also argue that in a gambling setting, both parties MUST HAVE malicious intent to win any money.
p.s. great video, surprisingly well made and even though some section feels slow paced, its captivating enough that I finished it in one sitting. Keep up the good work!
That's a sensible interpretation. Also interesting is that the judge in the US case specifically said it's NOT cheating and it's NOT fraud, (and was not RICO because few things are) but it was a "breach of contract" with the casino.
@@notme222 Not a breach of contract. Ivey asked the casino to play baccarat with him under slightly modified rules. The casino agreed to play by those rules. That's the contract of the game they were playing.
@@notme222 it was not a breach of contract because the casino agreed to the rule changes before playing, the casino was the one who broke the breach of contact when they sued to get the money back.
it was basically them trying to retroactively change the rules of the game and ignoring the fact that they were the ones who agreed to the new rules.
@@ddichny It's a breach of contract because if we sign a contract where I say we have to use this method of playing to flip a coin and you think the odds are 50/50, the odds are written as 50/50, but I know the odds are 60/40 because of the special coins we're using the contract is invalid. It'd only be a valid contract if I didn't know. It's not fraud and not cheating, but I am using deception for you to agree to a specific contract.
This entire documentary proves that they were using edge sorting without the house knowing to get an advantage while deceiving the house.
Social engineering does not involve sending your conditions in advance to the other party and requiring them to agree. The comparison is invalid.
Damn bro drop another video. U got the right tone for breaking down stories, great listen!!
The fact that they used cards with continuous patterns at real casinos is crazy. I used to think those were only in cheap decks that come with poker chips. All my decks have the same image with a white border on the back of the cards, so it's impossible to tell which is which.
Cut can still affect white border. If the border is uneven on one side over other
I’ve never gambled in a casino or even bought a lottery ticket, but this video was so well done. I understood all your explanations, and was totally engaged in the story the whole time!
shoutout to youtube's algorithm for finding this absolute gem
@@gassedd Thank you very much I appreciate the detailed compliment, thank you for watching and taking the time to share your thoughts.
@@gassedd its all AI Lol
Looking forward to more content from ya. Amazing doc.
One of the most engaging casino videos I’ve ever watched. Was extremely surprised to see your subscriber/view count. I can absolutely see a good future with this channel if you keep up this quality.
Much appreciated, I love making videos so I don't intend to stop.
6:50 YOOO love the sunny day song!! instantly recognized that iconic in circles opening
The Tobacco and gambling industries are in a perpetual battle to find out who is the scummiest, and today the gamblers win in my book.
Outstanding video bro. Easy to listen to, easy to follow, nicely paced, and well-written. The story never got bogged down in overly technical explanations, and there was just enough humor shining through to humanize everything. You've got a great voice for narration, too.
Subscribed 👍