I find it very funny that Sacred Stones genuinely has some of the absolute best writing in the whole franchise and people just overlook it because it has a "generic plot" (that is probably the most original of all the fire emblem games funnily enough)
Tbh, I don't personally like Ephraim mode much and think Eirika route is a lot better and someone genuinely "nuh uh"-ed me because I am appearently someone who 'needs to always get the same thing repeated forever' and Ephraim mode is diffrent, so it is automatically good.
I'm surprised you called it the "least straight scene" and didn't talk about how messed up Lyon's obsession with the twins really was. He wasn't just in love with Eirika and in admiration of Ephraim. He was in love with both of them, and jealous of both of them, and jealous of how close they were because he was in love with both of them. And the fact that he was jealous of the bond that twins have, conflating that bond with romantic love. It's just a whole ball of whacked up emotions. He wants to be both of them, and wants to be with both of them. Lyon didn't need power, Lyon needed therapy.
lyon is probably one of the only possesed villains that actually does anything unique with the trope, lyon isn't just in the victim role he's responsible for many of his actions, I comment I read once said that lyon is lying in both routes either about having no control of his actions in eirika's route or being completely in control in ephraim's route, the demon king is like a parasite corrupting his desires and trying to take control but those darker parts of his personality already existed, I think I can vaguely remember some show or something were an antagonist was possesed and he fought for control against the evil entity trying to be the big bad himself instead of a puppet but I can't remember what it was for the life of me or maybe it's a mandela effect or I'm mixing things up with my own older stories I wrote in my childhood, basically I think possesed villains are better when you don't take the agency away from the vessel, I like how lyon's insecurity probably would've pushed him down a darker path regardless of the demon king so it's less like lyon was the poor little victim and more the demon king gave him an excuse and opportunity to give into the darkness in his heart
chapter 18 of sacred stones is peak fiction. I've rambled about this scene a lot with my friend before. The moment Ephraim contradicts himself when he repeats that Lyon is gone and DK is tricking him only to ask Lyon to confirm he's right, I think that shows really well how he emotionally breaks. Even before that, he asked L'Arachel if there's any way to still save Lyon and he *apparently* accepted that there's none. But imao I feel that until the very end, he doesnt want to accept it. With Lyon I have another opinion, I think the only reason Lyon even revealed that he is *apparently* in control was because he never expected Ephraim to hold him in such high esteem. He made fun of himself to see how Ephraim truly thinks of him and it clashed with his expectation. Both of them get to see a side of the other they have always overlooked. Peak fiction
it is always so funny to see people abbreviate Demon King as DK because imagining Donkey Kong having a villain role in a FE game just sounds hysterical
10:50 IIRC when they go to retake Renais from Orsin they mention months have gone by with Ephraim saying "In hindsight he was acting sus" (meaning this man has never even reflected on the betrayal of Orsin for MONTHS and I think that's so funny and SO Ephraim)
Eirika and ephraim's singing are in fact a subversion of popular tropes. The power of friendship trope and the power of deterimation trope. And both have to come to terms with how the lyon they once loved no longer exist.
No, Lyon still exists, it's that they have to come to terms with the fact they can't SAVE Lyon. The only person who can save Lyon is Lyon himself, and he was never going to.
@Caddance you misunderstand. The lyon they loved is someone who is kind and would never do the events that happen in the game. The lyon in front of them is fundamentally different. It's similar to the difference between Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader.
Eirika's story is playing the trope fairly straight, except that the way it manifests is nonconventional and that is what makes it work. Usually you would assume "the power of friendship" to solve all issues, but all it did was save their butts last second to make sure the fight was not completely unwinnable. The heavy lifting was still on them and it did not "fix the problem" because the problem was unfixable, it just prevented the manifestation of even worse problems.
I’d never though of Lyon putting up a front to be like Ephraim. Ephraim does say that it’s his fault that Lyon turned up like this (as Ephraim was raised to be emotionally distant to others), but I never made the connection to Lyon’s demeanour mirroring Ephraim’s. Interesting!
I like the madman that doesn't pick fights he can't win and would discard his royal life to stab fools for fun, but even though I could definitely notice his growth after learning that you can't just stab your problems away, I didn't quite notice the rest, to be honest. With this, I like Ephraim more - his absolute lack of social skills outside of royal bonds and fighting explains a good part of his supports and story, while also making for another interesting contrast with Eirika.
I never really understood the whole complaint that Ephraim was a gary stu, despite the last chapters establishing his flaws and showing how these flaws affected his judgment. There's the whole bullshit about him conquering an entire castle with 3 guys, but you can find things like that in most FE games.
Conquering a castle with like 3 guys AND somehow escaping the encirclement laid out for him. Like, the whole point of the castle is that it was a trap laid out for Ephraim by Valter, but he somehow manages to break out of it and escape despite being surrounded by FLIERS. THEN, his return to the castle to save Eirika is seen as a glorious, triumphant reunion as if him being gone behind enemy lines with no way to communicate with anyone back home isn't directly responsible for this scenario
@@floricel_112 Pretty sure it's stated that Valter let Ephiraim and his retainers escape since he values a good fight and does anything to make the war last longer.
Great video, glad to see people talk about Ephraim in a way that isn't just calling him a Gary Stu I do wanna comment though, I don't think that the attitudes people love Ephraim and Hector for are necessarily the wrong reasons. It's not that boisterous, cavalier attitudes themselves are a flaw imo, but more so that those attitudes are basically used as crutches by the two characters. Being proud and confident in what you're good at isn't necessarily bad, the issue is neither of them acknowledge their own shortcomings.
i remember anwhile ago it was common opinion that lyon's behavior was route dependent but i never quite thought about how weird that sounded until a few years ago. Either way this was a nice video on the subject.
Everyone gives Eirika sh*t for giving "Lyon" the sacred stone (myself included), but NOOOOO ONE seems to remember Ephraim charging "the demon king" all alone and accomplishing the same result
There is a double standard that Jocks/Fighters have with Nerds/Mages. In most circles Nerds/Mages are considered weak but not necessarily in the physical sense (words like "hard work" and "common sense" and "social skills" come to mind, with Nerds/Mages being tagged as being "lazy" or "taking a shortcut" or having their skillset associated with a mental disorder. A lot of nobles/rich kids have degrees in "fun" things because they don't need to get a job making money, they get a job to make more "connections". Nobles/rich kids in Fire Emblem games and similar setting the Nobles are Fighters, and the Commoners are usually Mages (or something involving a skill set, because it's the equivalent of being a Nerd). Of course you got exceptions to his (there are female cleric/healer/priestess, and common foot soldiers) but the major characters usually fill this role to a degree. You have Kurtis how he looks up to/jealous of CAPTAIN GORDON DEFENDER OF EARTH in Disgaea. You get High School Nerds looking at the Jock and his Harem of Cheerleaders and going "what's he got that I don't?". Ephriam is a rich kid (yeah Leon is too...) but they both fit this standard trope. Ephraim is not called out for his apparent lack of "social skills" because rich people aren't "crazy" they are "eccentric". Even though magic and science are "bad", it's still okay to use enchanted weapons, and guns. Characters like Lute get the "not social/lacking in RL exp" because she's a mage (usually attack/arcane magic users get this, because you need "wisdom" to be a healer/cleric/medic). It's funny you mention Hector because people like him because he's "original" unlike Elwood with a "generic" personality, but I find him to be an asshole. Yeah he's a fast Axe user, and that's cool, but gee he just ripped on Jaffar the way he did was uncalled for. The Black Fang leaders were supposed to be the good guys they just got mixed up with Nergal, and Jaffar was just following orders, and it's not like Fire Emblem ever recruited enemies into the players army before. Then after the war was over Hector and his group sent bounty hunters after Jaffar and Nino(along with other Black Fang members) and forced them to leave their twins at an orphanage. No other FE lord is this level of petty (not particularly fond of Matthew or Sierra either). Also like to point out to all the female Lords, Micaiah gets the most flak for being one of the weakest lords, and she's the only one that isn't a weapon user (i know Edelgard get critized for being Edelgard but, that's a different story). I know soft-spoken female mages like Micaiah don't really make good leaders and she's more of a figurehead than anything else, but she has an actual game mechanic unique to her (being able to transfer health to another target) that no other character in the series can do (the other Lords get "professional" weapons, but those are just highpower weapons with a lot of uses), so I think that was special, other than the other MCs are special because they plot says they are. Ephraim traveling around the world as a mercenary could have been used as an opportunity to learn about the world and explore the land as opposed to just using it as an excuse to stab things, because I don't know how he can be a king by sitting inside the castle just learning "diplomacy" whatever that is. I mean Erikia learned how to stab things because she wanted to be helpful, so there is that. I have no idea why Kings and royalty/rich people make poor parents and don't raise their children and the people like Lyon who actively wants to solve problems and not just stab things gets hit with the Villian Bat to make the plot happen so MC gets an excuse to stab things. TL'DR People with authority don't need "social skills" they have "authority".
Excellent video, well thought out and ably presented. SStones holds a special spot in my heart for it being the first FE I played. But it has been a hot min I played it last for the story (like not a randomizer or some other shenanigans) so I am somewhat blindsided but also not by how good the writing and character development actually is! People are right; generic plots work for a reason cause you get to subvert and play with the way characters develop (Eirika and Ephraim)
I feel like ever since (whatever happened) in FEH happened, Ephraim all of a sudden gets pushed together with Lyon like it's something of Romance. From the times when I played through the game often years back, that isn't how I saw it as. I saw things as platonic, especially given that most of his feelings looked like they were way more for Eirika when it came to Romance.
Now I say "whatever happened" in parenthesis because I can't really pinpoint what that something was. But all I know was that it was when Ephraim and Lyon got a duo character. It was strange to me and I just wrote it off as nothing at the time. But it happened to just keep coming up. lol
I think it’s a bit due to the explicit statement of “I love you” being set up to later be interpreted that way. However, if you read the whole line it’s not really a confession of affection, rather a cry for help. People just don’t talk that way towards people they’re attracted to and confessing love, even missed out on to, it sounds more like something a psycho would say; implying that they’re always thinking about you and somewhat blaming you for how they ended up this way. Someone’s interpretation that it’s at least somewhat a confession from Lyon on feelings not followed through on wouldn’t innately be wrong, as I think you’re free to take media as you want after it comes out (in a sense making it a bit your own), I just hope a majority of people don’t interpret this as straight forward love and affection; even if it was stated that Lyon canonically loves Ephiram in a romantic way, THIS IS NOT LOVE!!
@@ness6099 You should see the rest of the comments then, and the video thumbnail. Despite my comment being the earliest comment, people went towards a remark speaking of "bisexuality".
@@Flamelance_Accendo like I said that’s their interpretation and what they want to see. I’ve tried arguing with others about characters in the past, mainly I don’t think Ike x Soren are a thing, but it just makes me feel like a killjoy and a bit homophobic, so I’m done arguing directly with people about it. Just going to let them have their fun and agree to disagree.
I find it very funny that Sacred Stones genuinely has some of the absolute best writing in the whole franchise and people just overlook it because it has a "generic plot" (that is probably the most original of all the fire emblem games funnily enough)
People always forget, why a plot becomes "generic". Because it works. Because it is a story people can understand and relate to.
@@aureliodeprimus8018walking using both legs is so generic and cliche, I'll roll in the ground instead.
@@Fernybun Ah, a master of Stupid Walking (the first perk you can get in West of Loathing).^^
Tbh, I don't personally like Ephraim mode much and think Eirika route is a lot better and someone genuinely "nuh uh"-ed me because I am appearently someone who 'needs to always get the same thing repeated forever' and Ephraim mode is diffrent, so it is automatically good.
Silly Ephraim. You can’t charge into battle on your own and expect things to go well. Who do you think you are, Seth?
Lmao
I'm surprised you called it the "least straight scene" and didn't talk about how messed up Lyon's obsession with the twins really was.
He wasn't just in love with Eirika and in admiration of Ephraim. He was in love with both of them, and jealous of both of them, and jealous of how close they were because he was in love with both of them. And the fact that he was jealous of the bond that twins have, conflating that bond with romantic love. It's just a whole ball of whacked up emotions. He wants to be both of them, and wants to be with both of them.
Lyon didn't need power, Lyon needed therapy.
Fire emblems most relatable character fr.
Bisexuality is a curse and blessing
My boi Lyon (and everyone tbh) needs Jesus
@@twingames8499lmao
lyon is probably one of the only possesed villains that actually does anything unique with the trope, lyon isn't just in the victim role he's responsible for many of his actions, I comment I read once said that lyon is lying in both routes either about having no control of his actions in eirika's route or being completely in control in ephraim's route, the demon king is like a parasite corrupting his desires and trying to take control but those darker parts of his personality already existed, I think I can vaguely remember some show or something were an antagonist was possesed and he fought for control against the evil entity trying to be the big bad himself instead of a puppet but I can't remember what it was for the life of me or maybe it's a mandela effect or I'm mixing things up with my own older stories I wrote in my childhood, basically I think possesed villains are better when you don't take the agency away from the vessel, I like how lyon's insecurity probably would've pushed him down a darker path regardless of the demon king so it's less like lyon was the poor little victim and more the demon king gave him an excuse and opportunity to give into the darkness in his heart
I'm surprised we still don't have a proper Character Analysis episode for Ephraim
Fomortiis 🤝 Grima
This host body was sooooo gay for you lol
chapter 18 of sacred stones is peak fiction. I've rambled about this scene a lot with my friend before. The moment Ephraim contradicts himself when he repeats that Lyon is gone and DK is tricking him only to ask Lyon to confirm he's right, I think that shows really well how he emotionally breaks. Even before that, he asked L'Arachel if there's any way to still save Lyon and he *apparently* accepted that there's none. But imao I feel that until the very end, he doesnt want to accept it.
With Lyon I have another opinion, I think the only reason Lyon even revealed that he is *apparently* in control was because he never expected Ephraim to hold him in such high esteem. He made fun of himself to see how Ephraim truly thinks of him and it clashed with his expectation. Both of them get to see a side of the other they have always overlooked. Peak fiction
it is always so funny to see people abbreviate Demon King as DK because imagining Donkey Kong having a villain role in a FE game just sounds hysterical
@@davidgoldammer348 thats my exact intention
@@youmie3438 excellent work then soldier
@@davidgoldammer348threatening the whole continent with his coconut gun
10:50 IIRC when they go to retake Renais from Orsin they mention months have gone by with Ephraim saying "In hindsight he was acting sus" (meaning this man has never even reflected on the betrayal of Orsin for MONTHS and I think that's so funny and SO Ephraim)
Eirikas video: listen i know, the title is clickbait.
Ephraims video: this is indeed fes least straight scene.
Eirika and ephraim's singing are in fact a subversion of popular tropes. The power of friendship trope and the power of deterimation trope. And both have to come to terms with how the lyon they once loved no longer exist.
No, Lyon still exists, it's that they have to come to terms with the fact they can't SAVE Lyon. The only person who can save Lyon is Lyon himself, and he was never going to.
@Caddance you misunderstand. The lyon they loved is someone who is kind and would never do the events that happen in the game. The lyon in front of them is fundamentally different. It's similar to the difference between Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader.
Eirika's story is playing the trope fairly straight, except that the way it manifests is nonconventional and that is what makes it work. Usually you would assume "the power of friendship" to solve all issues, but all it did was save their butts last second to make sure the fight was not completely unwinnable. The heavy lifting was still on them and it did not "fix the problem" because the problem was unfixable, it just prevented the manifestation of even worse problems.
oh, cruel fate upon Lyon. cursed with the weight of hopeless bisexuality
Lyon is the most realistic bisexual character because he swings both ways and misses both times
20:30 Can we get a tier list of what political party every Fire Emblem Lord is in
I’d never though of Lyon putting up a front to be like Ephraim.
Ephraim does say that it’s his fault that Lyon turned up like this (as Ephraim was raised to be emotionally distant to others), but I never made the connection to Lyon’s demeanour mirroring Ephraim’s. Interesting!
I like the madman that doesn't pick fights he can't win and would discard his royal life to stab fools for fun, but even though I could definitely notice his growth after learning that you can't just stab your problems away, I didn't quite notice the rest, to be honest.
With this, I like Ephraim more - his absolute lack of social skills outside of royal bonds and fighting explains a good part of his supports and story, while also making for another interesting contrast with Eirika.
If only Lyon knew he was in an RPG he would have known he already had the strongest power of all- friendship (with bi overtones)
I never really understood the whole complaint that Ephraim was a gary stu, despite the last chapters establishing his flaws and showing how these flaws affected his judgment. There's the whole bullshit about him conquering an entire castle with 3 guys, but you can find things like that in most FE games.
Ike does that every Thursday and noone complains (much)
Conquering a castle with like 3 guys AND somehow escaping the encirclement laid out for him. Like, the whole point of the castle is that it was a trap laid out for Ephraim by Valter, but he somehow manages to break out of it and escape despite being surrounded by FLIERS. THEN, his return to the castle to save Eirika is seen as a glorious, triumphant reunion as if him being gone behind enemy lines with no way to communicate with anyone back home isn't directly responsible for this scenario
@@floricel_112 Pretty sure it's stated that Valter let Ephiraim and his retainers escape since he values a good fight and does anything to make the war last longer.
Great video, glad to see people talk about Ephraim in a way that isn't just calling him a Gary Stu
I do wanna comment though, I don't think that the attitudes people love Ephraim and Hector for are necessarily the wrong reasons. It's not that boisterous, cavalier attitudes themselves are a flaw imo, but more so that those attitudes are basically used as crutches by the two characters. Being proud and confident in what you're good at isn't necessarily bad, the issue is neither of them acknowledge their own shortcomings.
Gee now I really want a Ephraim analysis video, that was a really good video talking about the flaws that Ephraim overcomes
i remember anwhile ago it was common opinion that lyon's behavior was route dependent but i never quite thought about how weird that sounded until a few years ago. Either way this was a nice video on the subject.
When are we getting a remake so I can see my green husband in 3D
What are you talking about? I'm...Gaa...urgh... I'm totally fine.
Great video! It's a lovely refresher and i didn't see Lyon that way but now i do lol
So what I'm understanding based on the flashbacks and the way he approaches relationships: Ephraim is autistic.
Yay representation!
hey that's was a fun scene as well as the analysis! good video
FEMSPaint got a good grade in media literacy
Watching this video after May This Last really hurts, that paralogue was brutal in more ways than one
Everyone gives Eirika sh*t for giving "Lyon" the sacred stone (myself included), but NOOOOO ONE seems to remember Ephraim charging "the demon king" all alone and accomplishing the same result
UA-cam is a perfectly functional instance with no flaws whatsoever
There is a double standard that Jocks/Fighters have with Nerds/Mages. In most circles Nerds/Mages are considered weak but not necessarily in the physical sense (words like "hard work" and "common sense" and "social skills" come to mind, with Nerds/Mages being tagged as being "lazy" or "taking a shortcut" or having their skillset associated with a mental disorder. A lot of nobles/rich kids have degrees in "fun" things because they don't need to get a job making money, they get a job to make more "connections". Nobles/rich kids in Fire Emblem games and similar setting the Nobles are Fighters, and the Commoners are usually Mages (or something involving a skill set, because it's the equivalent of being a Nerd). Of course you got exceptions to his (there are female cleric/healer/priestess, and common foot soldiers) but the major characters usually fill this role to a degree. You have Kurtis how he looks up to/jealous of CAPTAIN GORDON DEFENDER OF EARTH in Disgaea. You get High School Nerds looking at the Jock and his Harem of Cheerleaders and going "what's he got that I don't?".
Ephriam is a rich kid (yeah Leon is too...) but they both fit this standard trope. Ephraim is not called out for his apparent lack of "social skills" because rich people aren't "crazy" they are "eccentric". Even though magic and science are "bad", it's still okay to use enchanted weapons, and guns. Characters like Lute get the "not social/lacking in RL exp" because she's a mage (usually attack/arcane magic users get this, because you need "wisdom" to be a healer/cleric/medic).
It's funny you mention Hector because people like him because he's "original" unlike Elwood with a "generic" personality, but I find him to be an asshole. Yeah he's a fast Axe user, and that's cool, but gee he just ripped on Jaffar the way he did was uncalled for. The Black Fang leaders were supposed to be the good guys they just got mixed up with Nergal, and Jaffar was just following orders, and it's not like Fire Emblem ever recruited enemies into the players army before. Then after the war was over Hector and his group sent bounty hunters after Jaffar and Nino(along with other Black Fang members) and forced them to leave their twins at an orphanage. No other FE lord is this level of petty (not particularly fond of Matthew or Sierra either).
Also like to point out to all the female Lords, Micaiah gets the most flak for being one of the weakest lords, and she's the only one that isn't a weapon user (i know Edelgard get critized for being Edelgard but, that's a different story). I know soft-spoken female mages like Micaiah don't really make good leaders and she's more of a figurehead than anything else, but she has an actual game mechanic unique to her (being able to transfer health to another target) that no other character in the series can do (the other Lords get "professional" weapons, but those are just highpower weapons with a lot of uses), so I think that was special, other than the other MCs are special because they plot says they are.
Ephraim traveling around the world as a mercenary could have been used as an opportunity to learn about the world and explore the land as opposed to just using it as an excuse to stab things, because I don't know how he can be a king by sitting inside the castle just learning "diplomacy" whatever that is. I mean Erikia learned how to stab things because she wanted to be helpful, so there is that. I have no idea why Kings and royalty/rich people make poor parents and don't raise their children and the people like Lyon who actively wants to solve problems and not just stab things gets hit with the Villian Bat to make the plot happen so MC gets an excuse to stab things.
TL'DR People with authority don't need "social skills" they have "authority".
Excellent video, well thought out and ably presented. SStones holds a special spot in my heart for it being the first FE I played. But it has been a hot min I played it last for the story (like not a randomizer or some other shenanigans) so I am somewhat blindsided but also not by how good the writing and character development actually is! People are right; generic plots work for a reason cause you get to subvert and play with the way characters develop (Eirika and Ephraim)
It's peak!
I really have to watch every support from fe8 at some point
Ephraim's side of FE8's story is great but i like Eirika's side a lot more
20:30 lmfaooo
Lyon, my bi icon
But... but ephraim doesnt pick figths he cant win...
This isnt the least straight scene oboro is the least straight fire emblem
I feel like ever since (whatever happened) in FEH happened, Ephraim all of a sudden gets pushed together with Lyon like it's something of Romance. From the times when I played through the game often years back, that isn't how I saw it as. I saw things as platonic, especially given that most of his feelings looked like they were way more for Eirika when it came to Romance.
Now I say "whatever happened" in parenthesis because I can't really pinpoint what that something was. But all I know was that it was when Ephraim and Lyon got a duo character. It was strange to me and I just wrote it off as nothing at the time. But it happened to just keep coming up. lol
I think it’s a bit due to the explicit statement of “I love you” being set up to later be interpreted that way. However, if you read the whole line it’s not really a confession of affection, rather a cry for help. People just don’t talk that way towards people they’re attracted to and confessing love, even missed out on to, it sounds more like something a psycho would say; implying that they’re always thinking about you and somewhat blaming you for how they ended up this way.
Someone’s interpretation that it’s at least somewhat a confession from Lyon on feelings not followed through on wouldn’t innately be wrong, as I think you’re free to take media as you want after it comes out (in a sense making it a bit your own), I just hope a majority of people don’t interpret this as straight forward love and affection; even if it was stated that Lyon canonically loves Ephiram in a romantic way, THIS IS NOT LOVE!!
@@ness6099 You should see the rest of the comments then, and the video thumbnail. Despite my comment being the earliest comment, people went towards a remark speaking of "bisexuality".
@@Flamelance_Accendo like I said that’s their interpretation and what they want to see. I’ve tried arguing with others about characters in the past, mainly I don’t think Ike x Soren are a thing, but it just makes me feel like a killjoy and a bit homophobic, so I’m done arguing directly with people about it. Just going to let them have their fun and agree to disagree.
@ness6099 You probably got gaslighted into thinking that, because that isn't something that makes someone "homophobic" lol
Ofc this dude would think it's gay
I dont know what this means I am a cis straight man.
Ofc anime profile pic would say something that makes no sense
EDIT: it's also extremely clear you didn't actually watch the video lmao
@@renatatostada3318 1) my pfp is irrelevant
2) i was talking about the thumbnail
3) i did watch the whole video