TR&CI 113: Excess Damage On Instants & Sorceries - How This Works w/ Judith, Carnage Connoisseur
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- In this episode of Tough Rules & Cool Interactions, I will be talking about a newly spoiled card for the upcoming Murders at Markov Manor set, Judith, Carnage Connoisseur. She is a crazy powerful card that is easily the best at what she does but there is a card I think a lot of players that plan to build around her should for sure include in their decks.
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"Sunset Arthur" by Michael Wyckoff
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![Judith w/ Obosh | Burn / Gates - The Brewery [S11E11]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ekmu5St5IS0/mqdefault.jpg)
![Judith w/ Obosh | Burn / Gates - The Brewery [S11E11]](/img/tr.png)
2nd Bonus Question: it's a trick question, you can give the spell lifelink (and deathtouch) but since the chosen creature deals the damage and not the spell, that does nothing. You'd be better of taking the 2/2 token for that one. Consequently, you do not even kill their creatures since you only deal 3 damage each and they are 5/5 (and get no Toralf triggers) but at least Toralf survives and each opponent gets 3 damage.
Yeah getting the 2/2 tokens is just better for question 2. I love that he didn't even focus on that aspect of her at all. Just the one aspect of her is all it took to scare him about her power level.
Couldn't trick ya. Nice catch.
Bonus question. One deathtouch damage is still considered lethal damage to an indestructible creature, even though the creature won't die. So there will be 3 excess damage for each of the creatures adding up to 15 per player or 45 total damage.
Bonus question 2. Because the creature is the source of the damage lifelink and deathtouch won't apply. If you target Toralf, 5 damage will still clear the board.
Nailed it on both questions, well done.
@@ThisIsACommanderChanneland don't forget you also gain 60 life in the first bonus question
BQ 1: if I recall correctly when indestructible is involved, to determine the amount of damage conseidered lethal you take it to be whatever amount would be necessary to kill the creature if it didn't have indestructible, so in the case of death touch it would be one still, and the rest considered excess damage. So toralf would deal 3 damage per creature but no creature would die
Then this actually leads to infinite damage (as long as they have at least two creatures) as you felt triggers back and forth between them. With anything that increases damage, even by one, you kill the table.
@@MakeVarahHappen I have a Torbran deck that runs Toralf and also a Chandra's Incinerator as each of them individually are solid cards for Torbran. But when there is a single creature out with Indestructible then it does become a combo that will kill that opponent.
@@MakeVarahHappen with that arrangements you would get diminishing returns since you have to assign at least one damage as lethal damage. Also remember that torbran is the one dealing the damage based on excess damage dealt previously, so it won't be death touch damage and you'd have to assign all the damage to that creature
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel Well, you need two, right?
That Judith is crazy. I jusy don't see myself ever getting a boardstate against her. All my decks a creature heavy.
Exactly my thoughts. It's almost as bad as Toxrill. It's only five mana which gives it an edge over Toxrill, but Toxrill still gets around Protection and Indestructible. But still, it's a Commander that will just constantly be wiping the board and she just has to be killed instantly every time and I'm not too much a fan of those Commanders. I feel bad just nuking my opponent's Commander every time they play them.
I think Judith might be too efficient for her own good, like Tergrid, she's gonna be a removal magnet. It's even a cast trigger too so opponents are incentivized to kill her early, and blasphemous act gains so much life so no one's gonna feel bad swinging out at you even if you're behind.
My thoughts exactly. I see her similar to Tergrid and Toxrill as a kill on site. If they stay out, you pretty much just don't get to play Magic.
I see a video upload from T.I.A.C.C. I get ready to study ❤
Oh snap, that's awesome! I'm glad the videos get the brain juices flowing (I think that's a phrase people say).
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel yes it is 😂😂😂
As a newer player who is starting to get a grasp of the game, I really like this idea for a channel to
Go over some of the more complicated interactions! I don’t have any black decks yet… or any burn decks…. Well well well what have we here miss Judith!
Welcome to Magic! I hope you enjoy your time with it. And best of luck getting a hold of the mechanics and rules and all that jazz.
This is another case of, if question #2 happened during my game and they gained life from the Ignition then I wouldn't have questioned it and all 4 of us would have just gone with it. But watching you bring it up in this video, I knew the answer when you asked it. Crazy how when you're in a game and not in a mindset of thinking about how the cards interact, how easy it is to make a mistake.
Yeah, so far everyone commenting has caught it, which I figured since you all watching these videos are really adept at Magic rules and also how cards are worded. I still like to ask these questions. Earlier in the video, I mention how the life gain doesn't happen as Toralf is the source of the damage, no longer the Sorcery/Instant. It's basically foreshadowing BQ2, but I try to think of a scenario of a player thinking something would actually work the wrong way and put it into these videos just to get you also thinking that way so you can catch it if it happens in a game with you or at a table next to you.
Question 2 is straight up a question that so many players will mess it up in a game because sorceries are typically the source of the damage and if they just took their time and read the card slowly they would know what to do, but because games are so long already we speed read things and our brain fills in what we assume the card does based on the normal things that cards do. Pretty tricky.
Yeah, it will slip past a whole lot of players.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel But not us, we'll be on the lookout for it. Curious if Incinerator will be showing up on the EDHREC page, if enough people will be putting it in their lists.
I'm a bit later on this one than usual, but here are my answers to the BQs!
BQ1: You cast Mizzium Mortars with Overload, triggering Judith which is put on the stack. Opponent A casts and resolves heroic intervention, Judith's trigger resolves (presumably with you having selected the first mode, then mizzium mortars resolves and deals 4 (deathtouching) damage to each creature. Because of the deathtouch, each creature only needs to be assigned one damade to be considered lethal (even the now indestructible creatures). That means there is now 3 excess damage per creature, which you can point anywhere (except the now hexproof permanents on opponent A's battlefield). i.e. 15 triggers of 3 damage each that you need to select targets for (15 mizzium damage and life gained + 45 toralf damage).
BQ2: You cast Chandra's ignition, which triggers Judith. In this case, I imagine you would select the second ability to make an imp because the spell doesn't deal any damage to have benefit from lifeline and deathtouch. Then Judith deals 3 damage to each opponent and each creature (including your new imp if you're smart). This would have little effect on the opponent's creatures because they're 5/5s so Toralf doesn't care. Then, because you just killed the imp you hopefully created, and deal another 2 damage to each opponent. So a total of no life gained and 5 damage to each opponent would be the result of this one.
Coulda made the BQs a bit tougher if you threw a Torbran or other similar effect in there, but then it woulda needed even more math and this one's already a bit math-heavy. Awesome vid, as usual!
Heh, yeah, Torbran is just "get out your TI-83s and start mathing it up" in the scenario with Toralf.
If I'am correct:
Overload MM: no target no hexproof.
Lethal DMG with deathtouch is 1 DMG, even on indestructable/Protection (but those would Not die)creatures so toralf would Deal 3dmg per creature.
On CI: the creature Deals the damage Not the spells itself, so no overdmg on the 5/5s and No toralf trigger
That is all correct, you got em both.
BQ1: Judith Player gains 60 life and gets 15 triggers on Toralf each for 3 damage(45 . Player A's Creatures survive Players B and C get board cleared.
BQ2: 0 Life gained, no creatures die. Opponents and their creatures take 3 Damage
Good catch and edit, well done. Correct on BQ2, didn't fool you.
Toralf plus Blasphemous Act was enough to finish game and now you tell me we can give Act deathtouch?? Lord have mercy!
Ouch...
"Nearly one-sided board wipe" because it doesn't hit indestructible or prored is not realistic to me because that's the case for most board wipes. Blasphemous act and austere command also don't hit prored and indestructible respectively and we still call them board wipes.
Yeah, all the typical red board wipes fall to Pro Red and most others to Indestructible.
The REAL fun begins when you equip Basilisk Collar to your Toralf.
So much more life gain!
I don't think Heroic Invervention would change anything. Indestructible, or the act of otherwise not dying, is not relevant to the application of deathtouch. The rule states that "any damage greater than 1 is excess damage if the source has deathtouch". The creatures may not die, but you are absolutely dealing all that excess damage to target opponent.
CORRECT! Very good. Damage is done or assigned as if it WOULD BE lethal and then all else is considered to be excess. So even if something doesn't end up dying afterwards, when the damage was actually dealt we only look at what would have been lethal.
I love the "whatever" comments at the end of your videos, they make me laugh.
But heroic intervention shouldn't do anything except prevent the creatures from dying, same amount of life gain and all that jazz.
and I don't think Chandras ignition would gain you any life because the creature is dealing damage, not the spell.
Talking about my random comments at the end, after the "tah tah"?
yep those ones@@ThisIsACommanderChannel
Maybe I heard wrong. But on his last example before the bonus questions, why would your spells not have death touch and lifelink
Which example specifically, like which cards? If you're talking about the part when I'm covering Toralf, it's that the damage Toralf deals doesn't have DT and LL because his thing is a Triggered Ability, not a spell cast.
Do you live in Toronto? If you do, and you end up making gameplay videos and want another available player, hit me up
I do not live in Toronto. I live down in the US. Hopefully in the future though, playing with subscribers will be something I can pull off.