Great video! I find pyrodex is good for anything with a cap ignition but it’s definitely disappointing in a flintlock if you don’t prime it with BP. I would suggest making your own black powder. I’ve been making my own for a few years now and it’s better than the commercial brands.
I’ve never heard Pyrodex as being considered dangerous in a flintlock. Just that it’s harder to ignite because it requires a hotter temperature. There is no reason to do anything deliberately that will slow the lock time of any type of ignition.
Correct there was a comment left on one of the other videos that it's dangerous so needed to dispell those rumors. And I agreee 100% our goal is as fast as possible between lock drop and ignition. I would bot hesitate using pyrodex if that all I had as long as I had 4 f to help get her going.
Informative video, and perspective into the logistics of blackpowder weapons. I cut my teeth on Sam Fadala's books and research when I got into muzzleloaders 35 years ago. I found Pyrodex not only readily available, but it achieves higher velocities and has a long shelf life for storage. Duplex loads are perhaps the best balance in today's pandemic economy. I still see Pyrodex RS, Select, and P on my local box store shelves in that order of availability. I order GOEX online. With the lack of availability of percussion caps, flintlocks have great utility. In the end, experimentation is key. Thanks for your videos, I enjoy them. 👍
Thabks for sharing, yeah I agree, luckily I secured lots of real black powder before the pandemic , but locally Pyro is all I have near me, so I always have some on hand and like you state a duplex load can do wonders. I appreciate the comment.
Your video was about a year ago, but I'm interested in what you recommend for a flintlock pan since GOEX is shutting down operations? FFFFG may be much more difficult to come by now. Hopefully another company picks up the slack. Have you experimented with FFFG GOEX in the pan, or reducing the FFFG granulation to FFFFG?
@tomvawter4531 - By way of FYI, the British manual of arms for the Enfield was 1. Tear open paper cartridge. 2. Prime pan with some of the powder. 3. Pour remaining powder down barrel. 4. Load ball, paper and all. Translation, they were using the same powder for the pan as what they used for the main charge (2F or 1.5F). So, yes, 3F in the pan works fine. 1F works too, but hang fires start showing up at times. 4F was initially a target shooters technique for quicker ignition - always a good thing for target shooters. And it is the best way, so it continues to be recommended - but not mandatory. Just like 3F for 50 caliber and smaller and 2F for 50 caliber and larger. 3F will work just fine in a 58 caliber rifle, but the recoil is much sharper and quicker. Therefore 2F is recommended for the larger bores - or even 1.5F or 1F. Same amount of recoil with identical charges, but 3F much sharper and quicker (according to several shoulders).
@@kirkboswell2575 Thanks Kirk, that is great information. It makes sense to me. Just like today, target shooters still use many techniques that aren't necessary for the hunter or soldier. I imagine with 4F powder being so scarse, many flintlock shooters are curently making do this way.
I use triple 7 FF in my flintlock but I have a tip. Put 1-2 plunger throw from your pan charge flask of 4F first down the barrel than your pyrodex or triple 7. They have a much higher ignition point. Charge your pan with black powder only . Triple 7 is 77.7 grains has the same power of 100 grains black powder . I like it for less smoke so I can see the game lol. Clean up is better. But a flintlock must be cleaned up after each day of use.
good points. Some old shooters would put a feather in the vent when loading, thus leaving a small void for the priming powder to get in the chamber to give more contact with the propelling powder.
@@tegunn Thanks I learned doing this with my pa pellet ultralight flintlock. If you use pellets. The flash pan charge is not enough to set the pellets off reliable. The fire has to travel over a inch by design of the accelerator plug. To reach the pellets. Triple 7 pellets have a bond of black powder on them to help the 7 ignite. I use those plastic toothpick equate brand from Walmart to pick and brush my vent hole. Works great.
Based on your results here, I'd have to agree with the general wisdom in one respect: Pyrodex sucks for priming and isn't preferred for the barrel charge. Black in the pan makes Pyrodex almost acceptable in the barrel, though. I've shot enough Pyrodex in my cap and ball revolver (and had a BP muzzleloading pistol back in college) to know that Pyrodex is acceptable in cap- or primer-ignited guns -- and as you note, it makes very little difference in cleaning between black and Pyrodex. Sadly, we'll probably never have a substitute that works really well in flinters, because if it's as easy to ignite as black, it'll get DOT classified as an Explosive and BATFE will require a magazine for any point of sale that keeps even a single can overnight (which isn't going to happen for local gun shops, not since the 1970s). For flintlock shooters who live in the country, homemade black seems like a good solution; for those who live in any kind of town, however, that's not going to fly -- and we may have to just live with hazmat shipping costs to get Swiss or Goex from online sellers.
@davidbeasley2853 definitely pyrodex is really to high a flash point , duplex or kicker charges will work in the barrel but to ignite in the pan you really need the black. Cap locks definitely make it easier for hunting
see when i bought my first flintlock, ive been using prodex in all my other muzzleloader side locks, ive used prodex rs in the bore and prodex p in the pan and just get flash in the pan. i switched to real black powder and it works since but every gun is its own so what works with one might not work with the others
Black powder is still out there if a person is willing to do a little work to find it. GOEX has been bought by ESTES and will be back producing sporting BP next year. If you use a starter charge of real BP under the Pyrodex, with real BP in the pan you won't notice a difference in lock time (though it still can be measured with high speed photography). I don't mind using Pyrodex in cap locks but for my flintlocks which are my true love, it's nothing but real black powder for me.
Agreed. Yeah I luckily have a very good quantity of BP, and I saw the goex buyout so I am excited as well as I see there is a new primer facility in the works so reloading will also benefit.
Great video. I have been using only Pyrodex for over 20 years in my percussion cap rifles and it has worked just fine. I just got my first flintlock a couple weeks ago and have only used real black powder in it. This weekend I was going to try black powder in the pan and Pyrodex in the barrel. Looks like just black powder only for hunting loads but Pyrodex in the barrel should work for practice. The little bit of hang fire will make you work on fallow through.
Yup agree no issues in cap guns and as long as you have some 4f makes the job easier. If you have real black and pyrodex you could even add 5-10 grains by volume of real black 1st then top off with the rest of your charge to save the real bp. Have fun shooting this weekend
BP is Un Obtainium in my area of the CDRCA(Com Dem Repubic of CA) and shipping is Ridicules and no one will deal with it just not enough profit to drama ratio. But you gave me an "IDEA?" I have Pyrodex I abandon for many reasons, mostly it just would not go BOOM! So now I will use my Pyrodex up on the other end of my pan full of my DYI good stuff. Thanks for Your Info! Keep those Smoke Poles SMOKEN! Got a musket barrel rust bluing now, just niter blued other bits and parts, stock is ready for finishing and bedding. Today is Nikel plating day acetate and tank are all ready ducks all in a row.
Some people love it, some people hate it. I wish more people would use it so the BP stays on the shelf when I need it. Pyrodex is a "substitute"....don't care what the makers say, of course they will say it's the "best thing since buttered toast" (I would too if I made my living off it). But true, it will not 'destroy' your gun IF you use it properly, and keep your barrel CLEAN - however, I have heard of those who like to Over Charge that have had Disastrous Results with Pyrodex (foolish people loading 100-200gr in say a .50cal). Also I do believe I heard somewhere that European proof houses now require manufactures to proof with Both BP and Pyrodex if they intend to claim their barrel is safe for both....
@@natebumppo4929 Odd, I don't log into UA-cam often and just saw this notice. I did NOT make that post you are referring to....? don't know who has hacked my account, will have to change passwords. But as long as I am here: I do not personally use substitute, never have and never will. As to European proofing houses; Yes, they are made to 'proof' their barrels for Black Powder and Smokeless if that is what they are going to be sold for use with....I do not know about "substitutes" over there - just Black vs Smokeless (and I have seen barrels with Both proof stamps). .....off to change passwords
Yeah I've been struggling a bit from the auto accident still , it's over a year and a half but the nerve damage is still real apparent , u have some videos just need to upload them but I've been seeing my docs 4 days a week , injections accupuncture , pt and therapeutic massage. I will upload some soon I just need to sit down and edit them. Thanks for asking. I'm definitely slacking
@@redeagletrapping Somehow I missed your accident. So sorry. My favorite gun girl, Ruger old army girl passed away 7 weeks ago from covid. Another channel, history with Kayleigh has a medical issue. Now you! Its not safe for you guys to be on my favorites list.... Take care. I’ll wait til you post. Get better.
@@MrJento no I'm ok the accident was in Jan 2020 just dealing with nerve damage now making improvements daily just been in 4-5 sessions of treatments a week now accupuncture and therapeutic massage with pt mixed in , plus work has just limited my time. Thanks for reaching out ill motivate to get some stuff up. Sorry to hear about the others especially ruger girl she had good videos.
@@redeagletrapping Ya. I really miss her. I’m down helping her mom sort out hand loads and her many guns as we speak. I miss her very much. You take care. Get better.
@@MrJento that's great at least you are able to help her hopefully you get them sorted and off to good homes or qt least if you are helping sell em get her a good price in this market. It's terrible what happenned I saw her short with the mask on then nothing. Was it covid or complications from covid. Terrible either way gonna miss her vids
Pyrodex has to be compacted in order to explode. The pyrodex in your pan isn't compressed, therefore wont go off nearly as good as real black powder. I have used both. They both work. But black powder explodes in your pan or touch hole where as pyrodex just burns.
This one had a myriad of problems I ended up fixing them , one issue was improperly drilled flash hole so I added a liner. Works much better , I had tried almost no priming to over primed and it all resulted in poor ignition, until I drilled it
Regardless of powder used you are still getting a horrendous fuse effect. It's hard to glean much information from testing when the gun isn't working properly to begin with. This is kinda like testing old surplus ammo in a rifle with a weak firing pin spring.
What part of the guns not working correct , the fuse effect proves it works(poorly) but works and does show how bad a delay there is. The fuse effect only occurs with the pyrodex loads none of the black in pan black in barrel do this.
The difference in autoignition temperature, 740 F pyrodex vs 400 - 800 F BP, accounts for the delay. Powders begin burning, but will not self ignite, until the autoignition temperature is reached. This slow start may be likened to building a wood fire. Starts small then builds as temperature of fuel increases. Nice work, Red Eagle. www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs_other/rmrs_2009_haston_d001.pdf Forest Service investigations.
I have a 12 gauge sitting Fox muzzleloader with a 34-in barrel looks what they did was cut the 42-in barrel off at the wedding band and workmanship wasn't that great on it but piratex does not work well in it all you've got a stuff the touch hole with powder to get it the fire and it's still fire slow
Yeah sitting fox sadly is sub par. I ended up dilling and tapping the the flash cone for a 1/4 x28 liner and that solved all my problems for ignition , if you have not done that yet maybe try that. I'm assuming you have a flintlock since you are stuffing the touch hole. I prefer real black powder and have plenty now and I would say if you have any real load 5 or 10 grains 1st then the Pyro on top next , and use 4f or swiss null b in the pan. I'm gonna do an update video hopefully this weekend with all the work I did to fix this. Maybe it will help you as once they get running they are great. Thanks
Great video! I find pyrodex is good for anything with a cap ignition but it’s definitely disappointing in a flintlock if you don’t prime it with BP. I would suggest making your own black powder. I’ve been making my own for a few years now and it’s better than the commercial brands.
is there any videos you reccomend to get started on this? where do you buy your supplies to make it?
@@Ryan-zv6yl I have three videos on making black powder. Here’s the short one.
ua-cam.com/video/1V985DYGig8/v-deo.html
@@Ryan-zv6yl pure nitrate and sulfur from walmart. Burn your own charcoal.
I’ve never heard Pyrodex as being considered dangerous in a flintlock. Just that it’s harder to ignite because it requires a hotter temperature. There is no reason to do anything deliberately that will slow the lock time of any type of ignition.
Correct there was a comment left on one of the other videos that it's dangerous so needed to dispell those rumors.
And I agreee 100% our goal is as fast as possible between lock drop and ignition.
I would bot hesitate using pyrodex if that all I had as long as I had 4 f to help get her going.
Informative video, and perspective into the logistics of blackpowder weapons.
I cut my teeth on Sam Fadala's books and research when I got into muzzleloaders 35 years ago. I found Pyrodex not only readily available, but it achieves higher velocities and has a long shelf life for storage.
Duplex loads are perhaps the best balance in today's pandemic economy.
I still see Pyrodex RS, Select, and P on my local box store shelves in that order of availability. I order GOEX online.
With the lack of availability of percussion caps, flintlocks have great utility. In the end, experimentation is key.
Thanks for your videos, I enjoy them. 👍
Thabks for sharing, yeah I agree, luckily I secured lots of real black powder before the pandemic , but locally Pyro is all I have near me, so I always have some on hand and like you state a duplex load can do wonders.
I appreciate the comment.
Your video was about a year ago, but I'm interested in what you recommend for a flintlock pan since GOEX is shutting down operations? FFFFG may be much more difficult to come by now. Hopefully another company picks up the slack.
Have you experimented with FFFG GOEX
in the pan, or reducing the FFFG granulation to FFFFG?
Fadala was sponsored some by Pyrodex--and recommended duplex loads
in some applications in his writtings.
@tomvawter4531 - By way of FYI, the British manual of arms for the Enfield was 1. Tear open paper cartridge. 2. Prime pan with some of the powder. 3. Pour remaining powder down barrel. 4. Load ball, paper and all.
Translation, they were using the same powder for the pan as what they used for the main charge (2F or 1.5F). So, yes, 3F in the pan works fine. 1F works too, but hang fires start showing up at times.
4F was initially a target shooters technique for quicker ignition - always a good thing for target shooters. And it is the best way, so it continues to be recommended - but not mandatory. Just like 3F for 50 caliber and smaller and 2F for 50 caliber and larger. 3F will work just fine in a 58 caliber rifle, but the recoil is much sharper and quicker. Therefore 2F is recommended for the larger bores - or even 1.5F or 1F. Same amount of recoil with identical charges, but 3F much sharper and quicker (according to several shoulders).
@@kirkboswell2575 Thanks Kirk, that is great information. It makes sense to me.
Just like today, target shooters still use many techniques that aren't necessary for the hunter or soldier. I imagine with 4F powder being so scarse, many flintlock shooters are curently making do this way.
I use triple 7 FF in my flintlock but I have a tip. Put 1-2 plunger throw from your pan charge flask of 4F first down the barrel than your pyrodex or triple 7. They have a much higher ignition point. Charge your pan with black powder only . Triple 7 is 77.7 grains has the same power of 100 grains black powder . I like it for less smoke so I can see the game lol. Clean up is better. But a flintlock must be cleaned up after each day of use.
good points. Some old shooters would put a feather in the vent when loading, thus leaving a small void for the priming powder to get in the chamber to give more contact with the propelling powder.
@@tegunn Thanks I learned doing this with my pa pellet ultralight flintlock. If you use pellets. The flash pan charge is not enough to set the pellets off reliable. The fire has to travel over a inch by design of the accelerator plug. To reach the pellets. Triple 7 pellets have a bond of black powder on them to help the 7 ignite. I use those plastic toothpick equate brand from Walmart to pick and brush my vent hole. Works great.
Based on your results here, I'd have to agree with the general wisdom in one respect: Pyrodex sucks for priming and isn't preferred for the barrel charge. Black in the pan makes Pyrodex almost acceptable in the barrel, though.
I've shot enough Pyrodex in my cap and ball revolver (and had a BP muzzleloading pistol back in college) to know that Pyrodex is acceptable in cap- or primer-ignited guns -- and as you note, it makes very little difference in cleaning between black and Pyrodex. Sadly, we'll probably never have a substitute that works really well in flinters, because if it's as easy to ignite as black, it'll get DOT classified as an Explosive and BATFE will require a magazine for any point of sale that keeps even a single can overnight (which isn't going to happen for local gun shops, not since the 1970s). For flintlock shooters who live in the country, homemade black seems like a good solution; for those who live in any kind of town, however, that's not going to fly -- and we may have to just live with hazmat shipping costs to get Swiss or Goex from online sellers.
If I'm using pyrodex I don't have any black powder for the pan and ignition is questionable. That's why I have one caplock for hunting.
@davidbeasley2853 definitely pyrodex is really to high a flash point , duplex or kicker charges will work in the barrel but to ignite in the pan you really need the black. Cap locks definitely make it easier for hunting
The problem is a stupid and pointless law aimed at BP 😢
Agreed
I have no problems with pyrodex igniting in my cap lock Hawken style rifle, however the grouping suffers quite noticeably ..
Cap locks are good with Pyro and triple 7 it's really the flinters that struggle with ignition temps
see when i bought my first flintlock, ive been using prodex in all my other muzzleloader side locks, ive used prodex rs in the bore and prodex p in the pan and just get flash in the pan. i switched to real black powder and it works since but every gun is its own so what works with one might not work with the others
Yup. Real black Def is best though , sadly for many its hard to get real black
Black powder is still out there if a person is willing to do a little work to find it. GOEX has been bought by ESTES and will be back producing sporting BP next year. If you use a starter charge of real BP under the Pyrodex, with real BP in the pan you won't notice a difference in lock time (though it still can be measured with high speed photography). I don't mind using Pyrodex in cap locks but for my flintlocks which are my true love, it's nothing but real black powder for me.
Agreed. Yeah I luckily have a very good quantity of BP, and I saw the goex buyout so I am excited as well as I see there is a new primer facility in the works so reloading will also benefit.
Great video. I have been using only Pyrodex for over 20 years in my percussion cap rifles and it has worked just fine. I just got my first flintlock a couple weeks ago and have only used real black powder in it. This weekend I was going to try black powder in the pan and Pyrodex in the barrel. Looks like just black powder only for hunting loads but Pyrodex in the barrel should work for practice. The little bit of hang fire will make you work on fallow through.
Yup agree no issues in cap guns and as long as you have some 4f makes the job easier. If you have real black and pyrodex you could even add 5-10 grains by volume of real black 1st then top off with the rest of your charge to save the real bp.
Have fun shooting this weekend
BP is Un Obtainium in my area of the CDRCA(Com Dem Repubic of CA) and shipping is Ridicules and no one will deal with it just not enough profit to drama ratio.
But you gave me an "IDEA?" I have Pyrodex I abandon for many reasons, mostly it just would not go BOOM! So now I will use my Pyrodex up on the other end of my pan full of my DYI good stuff.
Thanks for Your Info! Keep those Smoke Poles SMOKEN!
Got a musket barrel rust bluing now, just niter blued other bits and parts, stock is ready for finishing and bedding. Today is Nikel plating day acetate and tank are all ready ducks all in a row.
Some people love it, some people hate it. I wish more people would use it so the BP stays on the shelf when I need it. Pyrodex is a "substitute"....don't care what the makers say, of course they will say it's the "best thing since buttered toast" (I would too if I made my living off it).
But true, it will not 'destroy' your gun IF you use it properly, and keep your barrel CLEAN - however, I have heard of those who like to Over Charge that have had Disastrous Results with Pyrodex (foolish people loading 100-200gr in say a .50cal).
Also I do believe I heard somewhere that European proof houses now require manufactures to proof with Both BP and Pyrodex if they intend to claim their barrel is safe for both....
You do believe you heard somewhere. Such a definitive and reliable statement.
@@natebumppo4929 Odd, I don't log into UA-cam often and just saw this notice.
I did NOT make that post you are referring to....? don't know who has hacked my account, will have to change passwords.
But as long as I am here:
I do not personally use substitute, never have and never will.
As to European proofing houses; Yes, they are made to 'proof' their barrels for Black Powder and Smokeless if that is what they are going to be sold for use with....I do not know about "substitutes" over there - just Black vs Smokeless (and I have seen barrels with Both proof stamps).
.....off to change passwords
Have not seen a new video from you in four months. Are you well?
Yeah I've been struggling a bit from the auto accident still , it's over a year and a half but the nerve damage is still real apparent , u have some videos just need to upload them but I've been seeing my docs 4 days a week , injections accupuncture , pt and therapeutic massage. I will upload some soon I just need to sit down and edit them.
Thanks for asking. I'm definitely slacking
@@redeagletrapping
Somehow I missed your accident. So sorry.
My favorite gun girl, Ruger old army girl passed away 7 weeks ago from covid.
Another channel, history with Kayleigh has a medical issue.
Now you! Its not safe for you guys to be on my favorites list....
Take care. I’ll wait til you post. Get better.
@@MrJento no I'm ok the accident was in Jan 2020 just dealing with nerve damage now making improvements daily just been in 4-5 sessions of treatments a week now accupuncture and therapeutic massage with pt mixed in , plus work has just limited my time. Thanks for reaching out ill motivate to get some stuff up.
Sorry to hear about the others especially ruger girl she had good videos.
@@redeagletrapping
Ya. I really miss her. I’m down helping her mom sort out hand loads and her many guns as we speak. I miss her very much.
You take care. Get better.
@@MrJento that's great at least you are able to help her hopefully you get them sorted and off to good homes or qt least if you are helping sell em get her a good price in this market. It's terrible what happenned I saw her short with the mask on then nothing. Was it covid or complications from covid. Terrible either way gonna miss her vids
ball mill your pyrodex for the pan only
Pyrodex has to be compacted in order to explode. The pyrodex in your pan isn't compressed, therefore wont go off nearly as good as real black powder. I have used both. They both work. But black powder explodes in your pan or touch hole where as pyrodex just burns.
Judging by the consistent hangfires, I believe you may be over-priming your pan.
This one had a myriad of problems I ended up fixing them , one issue was improperly drilled flash hole so I added a liner. Works much better , I had tried almost no priming to over primed and it all resulted in poor ignition, until I drilled it
@@redeagletrapping nice man, I'm glad you were able to fix that! keep it up!
Regardless of powder used you are still getting a horrendous fuse effect. It's hard to glean much information from testing when the gun isn't working properly to begin with. This is kinda like testing old surplus ammo in a rifle with a weak firing pin spring.
What part of the guns not working correct , the fuse effect proves it works(poorly) but works and does show how bad a delay there is.
The fuse effect only occurs with the pyrodex loads none of the black in pan black in barrel do this.
@@redeagletrapping There's no real difference between the second shot, BP/BP, and the following two with Pyrodex/Pyrodex and BP/Pyrodex.
The difference in autoignition temperature, 740 F pyrodex vs 400 - 800 F BP, accounts for the delay. Powders begin burning, but will not self ignite, until the autoignition temperature is reached. This slow start may be likened to building a wood fire. Starts small then builds as temperature of fuel increases. Nice work, Red Eagle.
www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs_other/rmrs_2009_haston_d001.pdf Forest Service investigations.
@@genegarrett4172 thanks.
I have a 12 gauge sitting Fox muzzleloader with a 34-in barrel looks what they did was cut the 42-in barrel off at the wedding band and workmanship wasn't that great on it but piratex does not work well in it all you've got a stuff the touch hole with powder to get it the fire and it's still fire slow
Yeah sitting fox sadly is sub par. I ended up dilling and tapping the the flash cone for a 1/4 x28 liner and that solved all my problems for ignition , if you have not done that yet maybe try that. I'm assuming you have a flintlock since you are stuffing the touch hole.
I prefer real black powder and have plenty now and I would say if you have any real load 5 or 10 grains 1st then the Pyro on top next , and use 4f or swiss null b in the pan. I'm gonna do an update video hopefully this weekend with all the work I did to fix this.
Maybe it will help you as once they get running they are great.
Thanks
Your sound is not good
Lousy sound quality and you're mumbling. I can't understand a word you're saying.
Sorry you found it so.
Funny you are the only one to complain. Maybe it's YOUR hearing?