What are your thoughts on Moniters in the second world war? Roberts class etc. Were they worth it or would using their metal for other things have been better?
Two questions: 1, Was there even an over-and-under naval twin turret? (Instead of the side by side two gun turret) 2, Was there a fire control system that use two local rangefinders for range triangulation? (Ie: Turret A looks at the target 3 o'clock - ie. 90 degrees, Turret X faces the same target az "2.30", ie. 80 degrees and I know that there is exactly 95 meters between my turrets)?
Why was the 2nd Pacific Squadron's gunnery so bad, even for pre-ww1 standards? Were the russians sailors poorly trained or just unlucky in that department?
Navy: Dear parlaiment we would like to buy some commerce raiders ships. You know thhat piraty types. Parl: No that is barbaric! Navy: Ok how about set of fine cruisers. Parl: Oh that is absolutely fine and civilized warfare!
The Germans wrote a book about using almost ACTUAL privateers in both world wars (Moewe, Zeeadler, Wolf, Atlantis, Wieder, Kormoran, Pinguin, Thor, Orion, Komet, Stier, Michel).
Well, Drach and Dr. Clarke know their audience and their material, they don't have a marketing division telling them all kinds of bullshit about what will sell... (They also don't have to spend millions on production and advertising..)
Liking the format, although audio issues made it hard to hear Dr Clarke a bit- perhaps getting the recording from his side and combining them might be an easy solution?
Just patreon up a fistful of stand-alone mics 🎤, mail them out to interviewees, and sync up post-production. No reason not to max out on bitrate with audio as beatiful as youtube will let you.
@@embretr.string5204 Dr Clarke has his own channel with good audio quality so no need to do that, if he simply recorded his end and sent the files that would do the job. The difficulty is in getting rid of Dr Clarke from the Drach end of the audio and vice-versa. Usually that means both sides wearing headphones so it's not playing through speakers, that's the downside. Considering it was genuinely hard to hear at times I'd say that would be the best solution.
I remember a 90s game called Great Naval Battles: North Atlantic by SSI. I used to love playing the Royal Navy side with 6" cruisers as escorts. While the battleships were slugging it out the speedy cruisers would lay down sheet after sheet of 6" volleys, taking out gun directors and peppering other superstructure items, and starting fires that the Germans had to deal with. Made for a good force multiplier.
"If you can use a destroyer as a cruiser, you can use a cruiser as a destroyer" - "Generate smoke, we attack" - cpt Horthy at Otranto Strait, chased by RN and RM forces :)
From what I've read, the British light cruisers were never meant to operate singlely so that even if they are each armed with only 6 or 8 six inch guns that there would be at least two present to provide adequate or overwhelming firepower AND if in a gun fight they can manuvore to split the enemy's fire as shown at the Battle of the River Platte.
Correct. For the Admiralty, numbers of ships was somewhat more important than individual quality, as the enormous length of the trade routes required many ships to patrol them. For example, to deal with a Panzerschiff or Hipper class cruiser, the idea was that the first ship to intercept it should stay in contact and concentrate more ships. This concentration worked at the Battle of the River Plate (since they were already together!), but Glasgow lost contact with Admiral Scheer in the Indian Ocean Feb 1941 and missed the chance to gather a large enough cruiser force to sink her.
Basically already heard the good doctor talk about this... However I will happily listen again with questions from Drach. These weeks of lockdown has been great for my history knowledge, primary regarding the RN inter-war years. It's been quite enlightening :)
Aside from the spotty sound quality, this was a superb video. I’ve had a oft-ridiculed feeling that “light” cruisers tended to get an unfair comparison when considered with their 8” armed brethren, and it was very interesting to hear a knowledgeable authority speak favorably of them in this video. Well done, sir. Please bring back the good Doctor anytime that you can...
FYI distillation plant produces clean water for the boilers primarily that's why your guest said, with the diesel out and the distillation plant gone the ship wasn't going anywhere fast. Good episode b.t.w.
absolutely fascinating. since i was a teenager in the late 60s i have been a big fan of the RN. how many high school guys skip lunch for a month to buy reprints of the 1939 and then 1945 Janes , or reads Mahan like a commie does das kapital? thank you , gentlemen, for this video. very informative.
Fabulous discussion on mission kill, design reservation, balanced design and the different solutions from the various Navys and why. Less I forget, the importance of HM&E and hotel services to the combat effectiveness of a warship. BRAVO ZULU, we want more!
Even a battle cruiser/battleship can get mission killed by gunfire from light cruisers or destroyrrs... like Hiei, at the first Naval Battle of Guadalcanal
Wonderful. Just wasn't expecting this today. Thanks for pulling this together and pointing me to another hugely knowledgeable source of great material too.
Dad was in the Navy in WWII, he said that the vessels had massive bolts on the exterior and interior on which they added the additional armour to the vessels.
I am so pumped to see this doc! I love the British between-the-wars cruisers and I think they did the best job of finding a balance under the Washington Naval treaty.
A most thought provoking video, I hope you both do more videos like this together! The idea that the Belfast and Edinburgh would've served on the China Station makes sense, especially as Belfast spent almost all of her post-war career in the Far East. Also regarding the possibility of the Italian fleet breaking out of the Mediterranean and linking up with German forces in the Atlantic might well have worked had Spain sided with the Axis and besieged or even took Gibraltar preventing the Malta convoys from the west and forcing the RN to abandon the western Mediterranean forcing the Malta convoys to go around Africa and through the Suez Canal. Or even worse force the RN out of the Med entirely and being unable to support the Army in North Africa and this losing the Canal as well! Good thing Franco refused to get involved in WWII!
I think the principle difference between US and British cruiser doctrine and design is that the US Navy thought "Well, we can't build battleships so we will build mini-BBs and fight them like a battle fleet." Seen in this light it makes sense to eliminate torpedoes. Up to a few years ago I accepted the conventional wisdom that it was a mistake but after delving more into the South Pacific surface battles it was clear that the mishandling of the destroyer force was the cause of the cruiser losses. Had the destroyers been concentrated in the van to deliver a mass torpedo attack at the beginning of the engagement the cruiser force would have suffered fewer losses and been able to exploit their radar advantage.
There is a lot to that, and the destroyer commanders were definitely much happier when they were freed to operate under their own doctrine in some of the 1943 actions. At the same time, their successes in 1943 and 1944 were coming at a time when the fixes to the Mark 14 were coming online and propagating to the Mark 15 the destroyers carried. However, I also think most of the commanders (admirals especially) responsible for those 1942 actions had failed to keep up with te hnical developments in radar and, therefore, failed to make good use of it. Before Savo Island the entrances around Savo were patrolled by radar-equipped destroyers, but their patrols weren't coordinated so gaps opened up which Mikawa happened to slip through. Callaghan used San Francisco, with its older SC radar as his flagship while placing Scott in Atlanta, with superior SG radar, immediately in front of him, and none of the SG radar destroyers was in the lead. Wright commanded from Minneapolis, which had SG radar, but denied his lead destroyers permission to launch torpedoes from 7,000 yards on a closing course. He then further frustrated the destroyer commanders by announcing his presence with gunfire before the destroyers had finished launching their torpedoes. Only Lee seems to have fully understood his radar and exploited its advantages.
RE the 4.5 inch gun, I'd say the USN's single 5-inch gun mounting was a superior weapon. Especially when teamed with the Mk38 FCS. Also re upgrading the County, wasn't the London's upgrade seen as basically a bit of a failure and put too much strain on the hull? I've read in several books that basically it was good on paper, poor in practice.
London had issues, because they tried to do everything to the poor ship, a number of the other Counties were upgraded learning from that experience without trying to install everything and the kitchen sink :)
Wednesdays were always a good day when Alex was in the library. He was always more than happy to chat naval history when your brain was melting and you needed a study-break.
I just pre ordered Dr Clarks book "Tribals, Battles and Darings the Genesis of the Modern Destroyer" . It's coming out a week from today May 15t I've always been fascinated with WW2 destroyers. Too bad there isn't an audio book version with Dr Clark narrorating it. That would be hilarious
Congrats, a very captivating video. It does nothing but reinforce my, and my father's, admiration of British cruisers. He never advanced past Insect class and minesweeper type vessels,
Some excellent points about the importance of the "Prescence" mission. So many Naval Historians and Naval gamers put way too much emphasis on armor and firepower. Part of the problem is it is hard to Quantify prescence. Complicated by the fact that really only the USN and the RN, and for a very limited time period the French Navy had/have a prescence mission. If you are a Cold War Naval Officer like I was, prescence is huge.
It brakes my heart to hear you say that about the American building power. I am extremely proud of the UK in many ways, but for there huge intellectual gifts that will allow man kind to survive I hope.
Awesome conversation. Can we have one on RN battleships as well? Thanks again, great stuff. Australia should have acquired Town Class cruisers over the Modified Leanders (not that they didn't acquit themselves well - Sydney, Perth and Hobart).
It is interesting to see the different approach the Royal Navy took to cruiser designs as opposed to most of the other naval powers. Essentially, they interpreted the cruiser to be more like an enlarged destroyer whereas every other power designed their cruisers to be a cross between a destroyer and a battleship.
I dont know what you did differently with your voice recording, but it sounds much clearer on this video that any in the past. Sounds great! Love your work.
The last bit prompted a vision of an alternate timeline in which Axis forces took and held Malta, Gibraltar, maybe even Alexandria and Cypress. A chilling thought that; and a situation from which UK and, one hopes, eventual Allied recovery would have been vastly more difficult.
As I sit here typing this, I am looking at a rusty bit of HMS Raleigh that I picked up on the coast of Newfoundland, Canada on a trip there a few years back. A lot of the WWI and just later cruisers of the Royal Navy were scrapped prior to WWII yet the Japanese continued to operate vessels that were obviously inferior well into WWII.
Drach, please, for the love of sound quality, have anyone you're talking to record their own audio. Recording the super-compressed audio quality from a video call sounds absolutely awful. It's barely watchable because of that. :( They can just use Audacity to record their audio, before you start, both of you can clap at about the same time to sync it up. You can still be on the video call, but record that audio separately, as a backup.
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 If you enjoy highly compressed audio (or are watching it on a potato with speakers so bad you can't tell the difference), that's great for you, but that's not a normal human response. Keep in mind, this is exclusively about the audio quality of his guests. It's extremely clear that he's got them on a video call, and is just recording from that, which is a highly compressed audio stream. Fine if you're just talking to someone, but not really good enough for a UA-cam video where hundreds or thousands of people are going to listen to it.
@@chemputer 'Fine if you're just talking to someone'. Which he is. To repeat and expand, sounded fine here on a PC with on board sound and an ancient pair of cheap speakers. If I want Hi-Fi quality sound I'll go downstairs and listen to an old Arcam Alpha6 amp through a pair of floor standing tannoy speakers. I would also point out, 'both of you can clap at about the same time' won't work for syncing the audio, the clue is in the 'about'. I do wonder why people who are getting high quality free content moan about the sound quality, seems somewhat entitled. Maybe you could buy him some better kit?
Dr. Clarke needs to get a slightly better microphone. The small, intermittent drops of words and syllables really made the very interesting information he had difficult to follow.
What a fantastic video, thanks to you both for sharing your knowledge on the topic. I'd only read the Osprey guides before watching this and the added level of detail provided by Dr Clarke was fantastic, each tangent more informative than the last. You have earned a sub sir 👍
10:26 Not so sure that I agree with the statement regarding the upgrades to the Counties (including the Town Class style of superstructure) being planned ... as far as I know, the only one so upgraded was London and she suffered from chronic structural problems as a result.
@@rsgalhero Yes I often imagine all those German sailors on Bismark chocking and drowning as she went down. So very funny... I would be willing to bet you have never worked at sea and so have not the smallest idea of what you say.
This was a thoroughly interesting discussion (though I was often distracted by the wonderful photographs). Aside from the audio issues, I was fascinated through the entire thing. I'd be interested to hear of any comparison between RN doctrine / thinking then compared to now. I know generally public perception is that there won't be any such wars again, but then we thought that after ww1. Anyway, enough rambling, thank you for sharing your videos!
You might want to rethink that analogy. A Tiger is bigger than say a Sherman but it doesn't have any more room inside. The guns, shells, engine, transmission, etc take up more room inside than the smaller tank. In fact, the smaller hatches and fewer vision devices make it feel smaller inside.
love your stuff drach! any chance you’d ever be willing to upload the audio as a podcast? would love to be able to listen to your stuff on my way to work!
@@mattblom3990 Breckenridge, now that I can really relax and listen and watch a Naval history show after a long day of Naval planning and construction. A Bourbon from far away from the ocean and well above sea level.
Had the UK built the Drakes the US would probably have retained the Alaskas in commission if only for the bragging rights of having the baddest @$$ cruiser around.
While considered unsportsmanlike, the best way of luring merchant ships and their crews close to your commerce raider, is to disguise it as a floating bar and bordello. irresistible to any sailor who spotted one.
Last time i was this early ... ugh ugh Hood ugh ugh ... The German Surface fleet was still a credible threat to the Royal Navy. yeah thats my choice and i am sticking with it.
@@bartfoster1311 The Bismarck was over-engineered crap that spent its career as more a gun platform menacing supply routes . Germany would of done better producing more of the ACTUAL gem of the German fleet. Scharnhorst and her sister. 4 more of them instead of Tirpitz and Bismarck would of been WAY BETTER and more flexible
Can I offer some feedback? For those of us who aren't super up to date with the various ships, especially e.g. here when you're talking classes, sub classes, etc, in the images (or in a slide before) could you identify both the ship and the class? Would be really helpful. Thanks
Dr clarke discussed this in a recent video, cant remember the title. Essentially his view of the 5"/38 was ok in the surface role but could have been great - AA work forced compromise
I always thought the 5" was better but as I think of the Darling class etc post war I think the 4.5" may actually be the better gun , deff would like see a comparison video
Pinned post for Q&A :)
What was the history and development of the Marines in navy's around the world?
How would you have expanded the Highseasfleet just before WW1, given additional funding.
What are your thoughts on Moniters in the second world war? Roberts class etc. Were they worth it or would using their metal for other things have been better?
Two questions:
1, Was there even an over-and-under naval twin turret? (Instead of the side by side two gun turret)
2, Was there a fire control system that use two local rangefinders for range triangulation? (Ie: Turret A looks at the target 3 o'clock - ie. 90 degrees, Turret X faces the same target az "2.30", ie. 80 degrees and I know that there is exactly 95 meters between my turrets)?
Why was the 2nd Pacific Squadron's gunnery so bad, even for pre-ww1 standards? Were the russians sailors poorly trained or just unlucky in that department?
Navy: Dear parlaiment we would like to buy some commerce raiders ships. You know thhat piraty types. Parl: No that is barbaric! Navy: Ok how about set of fine cruisers. Parl: Oh that is absolutely fine and civilized warfare!
The Germans wrote a book about using almost ACTUAL privateers in both world wars (Moewe, Zeeadler, Wolf, Atlantis, Wieder, Kormoran, Pinguin, Thor, Orion, Komet, Stier, Michel).
@VersusARCH the Napoleonic Royal Navy was already on the 5th edition of that book before Germany even existed
My mans here putting out more quality content on a consistent basis than multi-billion dollar companies.
Somehow it resembles fate of battleship, doesn't it? ;)
It weirdly seems like multi-billion dollar companies motives aren't to put out quality content on a consistent basis.
@@bl0bl1bl4 It weirdly seems like multi-billion companies' motive is to generate revenue, while Drach is working on his passion project.
bl0bl1bl4 they don’t need to when people like Drachinifel make the content for them. UA-cam would not exist without the creators.
Well, Drach and Dr. Clarke know their audience and their material, they don't have a marketing division telling them all kinds of bullshit about what will sell... (They also don't have to spend millions on production and advertising..)
"This is Drachinifel as you probably guessed since this is a video on my channel."
Ah the deep insights we're used to. (Teasing)
The deep insight I gained was the proper pronunciation of Drack-eh-knife-fell. >.
"if you make a big hole in a ship, it tends to sink" - Dr Alexander Clark, PhD
The work on the PHD was clearly worth it...
If it does not, than the hole ain't big enough
@@karlvongazenberg8398 add bigger hole 😅
Stop Blowing Holes In MY SHIP!!!!
@@Triggerfinger98 Can we make one hole from those two? :)
Drach and Dr. Clarke in a single video? Two of the best naval historians in UA-cam? This is better than receiving rum rations!
Course if you get Drachinifel, Dr. Clarke, and rum rations then you really are on the up and up
Not rum iron brew. Or in this time period steel brew.
Autumn Eule-Nashoba you mean composite/carbon fiber/goalkeeper brew?
No these two are old school.
And You appear to have very few particular haunts, now we need to track down the other 225676 fragments of the Man-Emperor of Mankind...
Ahh yes Famous one hour long 5 MINUTE guide. Let the 5 minutes begun!
Ah, you see, there are 20 individual 5 minute guides, all packed into one!
Actually this is a "Wednesday Special" - and those run about an hour usually.
It says “More or Less” right there on the tin!
Ah yes. Five minutes at a time.
Unfortunately there are actually only 12 5 minute guides in this episode
"If you can use a destroyer as a cruiser, you can use a cruiser as a destroyer"
Everyone's standard tactic in WoWS
Definitely how I use my cruisers.
Destroyers are for jousting
Isn't a light cruiser just an oversized destroyer that can be citadelled?
*looking innocently ignorant (or at least trying to)
@@Bird_Dog00 Back in the days, when DDs had citadels... The last time I loaded AP for my sluggish Japanese 120mm DD guns...
Isn't there a Work-In-Progress Italian DD that is a Cruiser in everything but Declaration and Class,
Liking the format, although audio issues made it hard to hear Dr Clarke a bit- perhaps getting the recording from his side and combining them might be an easy solution?
Just patreon up a fistful of stand-alone mics 🎤, mail them out to interviewees, and sync up post-production. No reason not to max out on bitrate with audio as beatiful as youtube will let you.
@@embretr.string5204 Dr Clarke has his own channel with good audio quality so no need to do that, if he simply recorded his end and sent the files that would do the job.
The difficulty is in getting rid of Dr Clarke from the Drach end of the audio and vice-versa. Usually that means both sides wearing headphones so it's not playing through speakers, that's the downside. Considering it was genuinely hard to hear at times I'd say that would be the best solution.
I remember a 90s game called Great Naval Battles: North Atlantic by SSI. I used to love playing the Royal Navy side with 6" cruisers as escorts. While the battleships were slugging it out the speedy cruisers would lay down sheet after sheet of 6" volleys, taking out gun directors and peppering other superstructure items, and starting fires that the Germans had to deal with. Made for a good force multiplier.
I played the SSI Pacific game that came after? that game. Always wanted to play it though.
"If you can use a destroyer as a cruiser, you can use a cruiser as a destroyer" -
"Generate smoke, we attack" - cpt Horthy at Otranto Strait, chased by RN and RM forces :)
*Konteradmiral. Reeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Why does that sound like a quote from the movie "Dodgeball"?
seeingeyegod I was thinking the same thing. If you can dodge a ball, you can dodge a wrench :)
@@dfgiuy22 lol yep
it's very refreshing to hear about the reasons for types of ships other than the "top trumps" level people seem to discuss.
seemed that the most important values. can it do the job well enough and can we afford it
Quantity is a quality at its own.
One of the goals of British interwar cruiser design was to create the largest citadel hit boxes possible.
From what I've read, the British light cruisers were never meant to operate singlely so that even if they are each armed with only 6 or 8 six inch guns that there would be at least two present to provide adequate or overwhelming firepower AND if in a gun fight they can manuvore to split the enemy's fire as shown at the Battle of the River Platte.
Correct. For the Admiralty, numbers of ships was somewhat more important than individual quality, as the enormous length of the trade routes required many ships to patrol them. For example, to deal with a Panzerschiff or Hipper class cruiser, the idea was that the first ship to intercept it should stay in contact and concentrate more ships. This concentration worked at the Battle of the River Plate (since they were already together!), but Glasgow lost contact with Admiral Scheer in the Indian Ocean Feb 1941 and missed the chance to gather a large enough cruiser force to sink her.
Drach helping a new UA-camr get a start is very in character for him.
Basically already heard the good doctor talk about this... However I will happily listen again with questions from Drach.
These weeks of lockdown has been great for my history knowledge, primary regarding the RN inter-war years. It's been quite enlightening :)
tisFrancesfault, will you please put the link of that vid here?
Aside from the spotty sound quality, this was a superb video. I’ve had a oft-ridiculed feeling that “light” cruisers tended to get an unfair comparison when considered with their 8” armed brethren, and it was very interesting to hear a knowledgeable authority speak favorably of them in this video. Well done, sir. Please bring back the good Doctor anytime that you can...
No offense to Dr Clarke but Drach has the best naval narration voice.
I hear him in my head when I play Warthunder: "And here we have the HMS Hawkins. It was...well...relatively shit."
Cruisers dear to my heart is the Leander class, rugged little 6" cruisers, Ajax and Achilles. Great story!
FYI distillation plant produces clean water for the boilers primarily that's why your guest said, with the diesel out and the distillation plant gone the ship wasn't going anywhere fast. Good episode b.t.w.
An 8-in shell with the proximity fuse would be hell for an aircraft if you could get them into the air quick enough
Nicely done, sir. Great discussion of the whys of crusier development. Do not be discouraged about the sound griping.
"If you make a big hole in the ship, it tends to sink"
Me: 'It took me a whole hour, but I think I learned something today'
you would be suprised at how often I have to explain this fact... making a hole which only lets air in or not enough water does do the job.
@@DrAlexClarke I think you mean "does NOT do the job" ? Or will any sufficiently large hole will do?
@@hughfisher9820 sufficiently large hole that lets in water...
Fire tends to do the trick, too.
really appreciate your guest, thanks. he put ships in the context of global maritime empire, rather than only ship v ship
When will we likely see the continuing parts of the Destroyer development and Carrier development series?
They didnt have the cruiser force they WANTED but they did have the cruisers they needed!
absolutely fascinating. since i was a teenager in the late 60s i have been a big fan of the RN. how many high school guys skip lunch for a month to buy reprints of the 1939 and then 1945 Janes , or reads Mahan like a commie does das kapital? thank you , gentlemen, for this video. very informative.
Fabulous discussion on mission kill, design reservation, balanced design and the different solutions from the various Navys and why. Less I forget, the importance of HM&E and hotel services to the combat effectiveness of a warship. BRAVO ZULU, we want more!
I loved this. People often overlook the logistics side of things, but you and Dr. Clark always bring it back to logistics
Damn silly of them government, you can not give RN a ship, any ship, and expect it to not end up as a raider at some point of its career...
Old habits die hard.
Even a battle cruiser/battleship can get mission killed by gunfire from light cruisers or destroyrrs... like Hiei, at the first Naval Battle of Guadalcanal
Gentlemen, this is conference panel-grade stuff! Much obliged for your time, knowledge, eloquence and drive to give us these! Thank you!
Wonderful. Just wasn't expecting this today. Thanks for pulling this together and pointing me to another hugely knowledgeable source of great material too.
a 8" aa shell is not only a bad day for pilot but enough to make one damage their aircraft fly back and say yea their aaa got me
His Majesty's great machine gun HMS Minotaur.
This and "The Colonizer" have got to be the best descriptions of the HMS Minotaur I have ever heard
Found this really interesting and gained great perspective and respect for the design and doctrine of the Royal Navy of the time! Thank you!
Thank you Drach for helping fight the war against boredom and ennui.
Dad was in the Navy in WWII, he said that the vessels had massive bolts on the exterior and interior on which they added the additional armour to the vessels.
I am so pumped to see this doc! I love the British between-the-wars cruisers and I think they did the best job of finding a balance under the Washington Naval treaty.
Extremely interesting video, really great in-depth analysis, thanks!!
Love it they taped about the mark 16 torpedoes since they were copies of German torpedoes .
Definitely wasnt stalking his channel waiting for the Wednesday special again or anything...
A most thought provoking video, I hope you both do more videos like this together!
The idea that the Belfast and Edinburgh would've served on the China Station makes sense, especially as Belfast spent almost all of her post-war career in the Far East.
Also regarding the possibility of the Italian fleet breaking out of the Mediterranean and linking up with German forces in the Atlantic might well have worked had Spain sided with the Axis and besieged or even took Gibraltar preventing the Malta convoys from the west and forcing the RN to abandon the western Mediterranean forcing the Malta convoys to go around Africa and through the Suez Canal. Or even worse force the RN out of the Med entirely and being unable to support the Army in North Africa and this losing the Canal as well! Good thing Franco refused to get involved in WWII!
Should have waited with this till 13.37 CET, but video is up, so fire up the 8" coffee machine... Its an aoutoloader :)
Very interesting, more to ships than just the nuts bolts and guns, I wold never have thought of that. Another good vid, Thanks!
Thank you for a quite different understanding of the intended role of the British and Commonwealth cruisers.
Brilliant collaboration gents....most informative and appreciated.
I think the principle difference between US and British cruiser doctrine and design is that the US Navy thought "Well, we can't build battleships so we will build mini-BBs and fight them like a battle fleet." Seen in this light it makes sense to eliminate torpedoes. Up to a few years ago I accepted the conventional wisdom that it was a mistake but after delving more into the South Pacific surface battles it was clear that the mishandling of the destroyer force was the cause of the cruiser losses. Had the destroyers been concentrated in the van to deliver a mass torpedo attack at the beginning of the engagement the cruiser force would have suffered fewer losses and been able to exploit their radar advantage.
There is a lot to that, and the destroyer commanders were definitely much happier when they were freed to operate under their own doctrine in some of the 1943 actions. At the same time, their successes in 1943 and 1944 were coming at a time when the fixes to the Mark 14 were coming online and propagating to the Mark 15 the destroyers carried. However, I also think most of the commanders (admirals especially) responsible for those 1942 actions had failed to keep up with te hnical developments in radar and, therefore, failed to make good use of it. Before Savo Island the entrances around Savo were patrolled by radar-equipped destroyers, but their patrols weren't coordinated so gaps opened up which Mikawa happened to slip through. Callaghan used San Francisco, with its older SC radar as his flagship while placing Scott in Atlanta, with superior SG radar, immediately in front of him, and none of the SG radar destroyers was in the lead. Wright commanded from Minneapolis, which had SG radar, but denied his lead destroyers permission to launch torpedoes from 7,000 yards on a closing course. He then further frustrated the destroyer commanders by announcing his presence with gunfire before the destroyers had finished launching their torpedoes. Only Lee seems to have fully understood his radar and exploited its advantages.
Entertaining and informative. Thank you Drach and Dr. Clark it was a pleasure as usual.
“His Majesty’s Great Machine-gun” killed me.
RE the 4.5 inch gun, I'd say the USN's single 5-inch gun mounting was a superior weapon. Especially when teamed with the Mk38 FCS. Also re upgrading the County, wasn't the London's upgrade seen as basically a bit of a failure and put too much strain on the hull? I've read in several books that basically it was good on paper, poor in practice.
London had issues, because they tried to do everything to the poor ship, a number of the other Counties were upgraded learning from that experience without trying to install everything and the kitchen sink :)
Wednesdays were always a good day when Alex was in the library. He was always more than happy to chat naval history when your brain was melting and you needed a study-break.
I just pre ordered Dr Clarks book "Tribals, Battles and Darings the Genesis of the Modern Destroyer" . It's coming out a week from today May 15t I've always been fascinated with WW2 destroyers. Too bad there isn't an audio book version with Dr Clark narrorating it. That would be hilarious
A most interesting discussion, thank you both very much.
Most excellent elucidating the strategic needs governing the planning and requisitioning of the desired ships
Congrats, a very captivating video. It does nothing but reinforce my, and my father's, admiration of British cruisers. He never advanced past Insect class and minesweeper type vessels,
Some excellent points about the importance of the "Prescence" mission. So many Naval Historians and Naval gamers put way too much emphasis on armor and firepower. Part of the problem is it is hard to Quantify prescence. Complicated by the fact that really only the USN and the RN, and for a very limited time period the French Navy had/have a prescence mission. If you are a Cold War Naval Officer like I was, prescence is huge.
Two competent and interesting people talking about 20th century naval stuff - did xmas came early this year ?
Excellent presentation. Keep up the great work.
It brakes my heart to hear you say that about the American building power. I am extremely proud of the UK in many ways, but for there huge intellectual gifts that will allow man kind to survive I hope.
Can you do an chronological overview of the royal navy actions in ww2. Where they got sent, how they got there, their objectives and accomplishments?
Awesome conversation. Can we have one on RN battleships as well? Thanks again, great stuff.
Australia should have acquired Town Class cruisers over the Modified Leanders (not that they didn't acquit themselves well - Sydney, Perth and Hobart).
Thank you, Drach, one of your most informative videos so far.
Excellent episode. Very enlightening. Good job guys . Thanks for filling in so many gaps in my knowledge.
April 2022 and Doctor Clarke has many fans.
I like this set up with the two of you. Please continue.
It is interesting to see the different approach the Royal Navy took to cruiser designs as opposed to most of the other naval powers. Essentially, they interpreted the cruiser to be more like an enlarged destroyer whereas every other power designed their cruisers to be a cross between a destroyer and a battleship.
Very enjoyable video. Thanks for your contribution Dr. Clark, enjoy your time in the library(s).
I dont know what you did differently with your voice recording, but it sounds much clearer on this video that any in the past. Sounds great! Love your work.
The last bit prompted a vision of an alternate timeline in which Axis forces took and held Malta, Gibraltar, maybe even Alexandria and Cypress. A chilling thought that; and a situation from which UK and, one hopes, eventual Allied recovery would have been vastly more difficult.
Excellent video. Please do this again
As I sit here typing this, I am looking at a rusty bit of HMS Raleigh that I picked up on the coast of Newfoundland, Canada on a trip there a few years back. A lot of the WWI and just later cruisers of the Royal Navy were scrapped prior to WWII yet the Japanese continued to operate vessels that were obviously inferior well into WWII.
Very well done. Couple of naval doctrine legends!
Drach, please, for the love of sound quality, have anyone you're talking to record their own audio. Recording the super-compressed audio quality from a video call sounds absolutely awful. It's barely watchable because of that. :(
They can just use Audacity to record their audio, before you start, both of you can clap at about the same time to sync it up. You can still be on the video call, but record that audio separately, as a backup.
Sounds fine here.
Nearly threw my phone out of the window in frustration at the number of times important comments that got cut off.
@@gwtpictgwtpict4214 If you enjoy highly compressed audio (or are watching it on a potato with speakers so bad you can't tell the difference), that's great for you, but that's not a normal human response.
Keep in mind, this is exclusively about the audio quality of his guests. It's extremely clear that he's got them on a video call, and is just recording from that, which is a highly compressed audio stream. Fine if you're just talking to someone, but not really good enough for a UA-cam video where hundreds or thousands of people are going to listen to it.
This is a politely worded piece of technical advice. I would expect at least 4 idiots to pop up with rude comments.
@@chemputer 'Fine if you're just talking to someone'. Which he is. To repeat and expand, sounded fine here on a PC with on board sound and an ancient pair of cheap speakers. If I want Hi-Fi quality sound I'll go downstairs and listen to an old Arcam Alpha6 amp through a pair of floor standing tannoy speakers. I would also point out, 'both of you can clap at about the same time' won't work for syncing the audio, the clue is in the 'about'. I do wonder why people who are getting high quality free content moan about the sound quality, seems somewhat entitled. Maybe you could buy him some better kit?
Dr. Clarke needs to get a slightly better microphone. The small, intermittent drops of words and syllables really made the very interesting information he had difficult to follow.
He had a "gate" on his mic...unfortunately, but, yeah, the quality of the mic isn't very good either.
Battlemage15 read the description it’s says it was recorded in a electrical storm
The desription says they recorded during an electrical storm and attribute the audio clipping to that
@@85gamingwot55 electrical storm didn't excuse the bad quality of the mic, only static interference, but I didn't hear and static interference.
paul roustan your opinion has been noted but will be ignored in further discussion
Interesting to think of not just the ships but what use was planned for them and how they were used
Very interesting Video , thank you for taking the time to make it
I am writing a book on cruises on all shapes and sizes it's a pain in the ass
At least the Zumwalt class is not a cruiser at 15.000 or so tons, thought the Kuznetzov is... :)
What a fantastic video, thanks to you both for sharing your knowledge on the topic. I'd only read the Osprey guides before watching this and the added level of detail provided by Dr Clarke was fantastic, each tangent more informative than the last. You have earned a sub sir 👍
I have just started reading norman friedman british cruisers and drach uploads this. What a world
10:26 Not so sure that I agree with the statement regarding the upgrades to the Counties (including the Town Class style of superstructure) being planned ... as far as I know, the only one so upgraded was London and she suffered from chronic structural problems as a result.
Last time I was this early it was before ''hood was still in one piece'' comments.
It's hoods in pieces all the way down.
@@theleva7 1,415 brave men dead. Such a really 'funny' joke. F...king morons.
@@99IronDuke Blown up in the opening salvos, it really was quite a joke.
@@rsgalhero Yes I often imagine all those German sailors on Bismark chocking and drowning as she went down. So very funny... I would be willing to bet you have never worked at sea and so have not the smallest idea of what you say.
@Der Richtige Arzt Sure dude pretend you actually have a human sense of humour. Be well fool.
Dr Clarke has a really excellent channel. The RN County class cruisers were such very fine, handsome, girls.
It is really a pleasure to listen when ship designs are brought up in bloody context.
Missions, organisation, fleet structure, timing, tactics ...
Great video. Hope to see more collaboration between you two.
This was a thoroughly interesting discussion (though I was often distracted by the wonderful photographs). Aside from the audio issues, I was fascinated through the entire thing. I'd be interested to hear of any comparison between RN doctrine / thinking then compared to now. I know generally public perception is that there won't be any such wars again, but then we thought that after ww1.
Anyway, enough rambling, thank you for sharing your videos!
Please make a video on the Cleveland class light cruisers of the US Navy! They were absolute beasts!
I dont think there are enough comments about dr. Clarke's audio quality yet. C'mon lads get writing!
Also another great video Drach.
Excellent content, lost of good information in an hour or so. Thank you both very much.
Same with the German Tiger tank - lots of space inside makes it much easier to maintain for a vehicle of that size. Upsides and downsides to size.
You might want to rethink that analogy. A Tiger is bigger than say a Sherman but it doesn't have any more room inside. The guns, shells, engine, transmission, etc take up more room inside than the smaller tank. In fact, the smaller hatches and fewer vision devices make it feel smaller inside.
love your stuff drach! any chance you’d ever be willing to upload the audio as a podcast? would love to be able to listen to your stuff on my way to work!
wow this was fantastic, my first discussion vid from this channel. looking for another one. this vid won a subscription
Why am I up this early? Rum and w Dr Clarke? Awesome!
What was your poison? Listening now drinking Lamb's naval.
@@mattblom3990 Breckenridge, now that I can really relax and listen and watch a Naval history show after a long day of Naval planning and construction. A Bourbon from far away from the ocean and well above sea level.
Yes.. the 9.2 inch was a superb weapon .. well worth the logistics issues
We had 10.inch ships previously via the chilian purchases...
Had the UK built the Drakes the US would probably have retained the Alaskas in commission if only for the bragging rights of having the baddest @$$ cruiser around.
It’s always a great day when the drac video is an hour long
*Brewing a big pot of Lampsang Souchong and enjoying an Olica Series V* This is so cool!
While considered unsportsmanlike, the best way of luring merchant ships and their crews close to your commerce raider, is to disguise it as a floating bar and bordello. irresistible to any sailor who spotted one.
Last time i was this early ... ugh ugh Hood ugh ugh ... The German Surface fleet was still a credible threat to the Royal Navy.
yeah thats my choice and i am sticking with it.
So the Bismarck could still steer? Lol
Heres a song about it:
ua-cam.com/video/M1Ufc2hI4FM/v-deo.html
@@bartfoster1311 The Bismarck was over-engineered crap that spent its career as more a gun platform menacing supply routes .
Germany would of done better producing more of the ACTUAL gem of the German fleet. Scharnhorst and her sister. 4 more of them instead of Tirpitz and Bismarck would of been WAY BETTER and more flexible
@@mk_gamíng0609 none of them had a chance
Can I offer some feedback? For those of us who aren't super up to date with the various ships, especially e.g. here when you're talking classes, sub classes, etc, in the images (or in a slide before) could you identify both the ship and the class? Would be really helpful. Thanks
when you get time, could you compare the British 4.5 inch gun and the American 5 inch 38? another great video, thanks
Dr clarke discussed this in a recent video, cant remember the title.
Essentially his view of the 5"/38 was ok in the surface role but could have been great - AA work forced compromise
I always thought the 5" was better but as I think of the Darling class etc post war I think the 4.5" may actually be the better gun , deff would like see a comparison video
Fascinating words about cruisers, a class I havw always loved.