Could the Post Office REALLY get done for Manslaughter? What about Paula Vennells? Well, yes.
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- Опубліковано 16 жов 2024
- It's not just politicians blowing off steam; this could really happen. So let me explain how...
I quite liked that lamp blowing. Made everything look arty. So I'm going to claim it was a deliberate choice.
#artoflaw #postoffice #manslaughter #law corporate homicide paula vennells
Disclaimer: Neither this nor any other video, may be taken as legal advice. I accept no liability whatever for any reliance placed upon it.
Founded by Alan Robertshaw and @Blackbeltbarrister
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Why do these people get the privilege of an inquiry before any action is considered.. The police have evidence right now of a serious crime. Vennells should be arrested now, along with everyone else involved in this despicable crime.
Other than it is its own legal process so has to play out. I am also assuming its because the whole process needs to play out as there may be more information revealed that needs to be added to their charges.
@@Lioness_UTV How far does the rot go?
The inquiry has been initiated by the Government and has the goal of the finding of fact and does not seek to establish guilt. A criminal case sets out to determine guilt based on a limited range of relevant facts. It's certainly frustrating about how long these processes are all taking including compensation for the sub postmasters.
@@stephenwabaxter How does one clear their name as the old saying goes, 'Mud sticks'.
Why spend Police money 'finding facts' when the inquiry is doing that for them. I think it's fine at the min for the enquiry to complete discovery, then the Police and CPS need to review those facts and determine if prosecutions are appropriate. I'd be very surprised if there were no criminal prosecutions as a result of the inquire...
The Post Office and Fujitsu management needs cleaning out. How many other things like this have happened with their software & systems. Why has this scandal taken so long to be taken seriously.?
Government's of all parties and the Civil Service knew it would cost a load of money in compensation and like all criminal enterprises, the British Government likes taking your money but dosent like giving it back.
If Paula Vennels was awarded the CBE due to the perceived good she did at the PO, then surely, she is guilty of all the bad that happened!
Good point, well made.
Excellent observation
She's not the only one at fault though, it's just that she's been caught lying. Her predecessor Dave Smith is arguably even more culpable for setting the direction and deciding not to have a full and proper internal investigation. And let's not forget the role than van den Bogerd have played!
Reverend Paula Venality! Hypocrisy at its best
Brilliant and true description of the CEO. 😀😀😀
Not really.
The church is a despicable organisation.
She fits right in.
sounds correct it a good grift .
She remains an ordained priest.. come on Welby what you playing at..?
The church is hardly an organisation to look up to....
So...
We do not need the Post Office being done. We need the Senior Management being done. Because they did it the people. Our public buildings do not need fining just to lose it into private hands when the fine sends it into bankruptcy.
You are missing off the civil servants. It's a public company, owned by the state. The Wokerati in Westminster, the civil servants, appointed her. They were pulling the strings. Civil servants need to go down for a long time. That sends a shock wave they have skin in the game.
@@adenwellsmith6908 Well said. I think you are absolutely correct. The inquiry, like most governmental processes, is designed by civil servants with protection and delay in mind. I’m not blaming the inquiry at all, they seem to be very professional (unlike some inquiries I could name). It is just the governmental system that is designed to do a job that is not disclosed. The latest disclosure of immense amounts of paper to the inquiry by PO is indicative of the ‘process’ in action.
@@Daniel-deMerrivale The document dump. I've used that. I'm going to use it. Intermittently in that 79,000 pages, perhaps every 2,000 is an interesting document they intend to spring on the inquiry.
I'm going to take TFL to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal for illegal covert surveillance. I've been FOIng around to cut off their escape routes.
Paula needs to behind bars.
Watching this from the outside (from Australia), Paula Vennels needs to go to prison for a long time. Regardless of how that happens, or the charges available.
She and others...
She's not the only one, she's just the most visible at the moment. Ed Davey must also be on that list and the gang of lawyers, barristers and other senior managers. Equally, Fujitsu should be banned from all current and future government IT procurement, regardless of their culpability, their reputation and trust public trust is shot...
They ALL do! Every damn one of them, including government ministers! Although this goes way back, the real death knell was the privatisation of the PO, where its assets were stripped to the bare minimum. And if you want to know what it's like to be a current postie, check out the yesterday's Guardian Newspaper and a piece written by Gareth Edwards. I despair of the government and corporate corruption in the UK and I just wish I could leave! Maybe I'll escape to the far flung corners of the Outer Hebrides and live in a tent! Until it gets blown away! 😮💨🤭⚖️🇮🇪🏴
@dougle03 I think that Crieghton woman needs to be packing her stuff into storage, also.
@@petermiddo Looking forward to her session more than Vennels... lol
One does not need to be successful in robbing a bank in order to be charged with attempting to rob a bank, both are treated the same, no? Whether one is successful in perverting the course of justice, which up to now the PO board has been, is irrelevant to the question did they pervert or attempt to pervert the course of justice
Thanks for the video. Whilst I believe Post Officials should be held criminally liable for what has happened, what I find truly disturbing is that law firms and lawyers are at the heart of this scandal, and they will probably get off lightly, having financially benefited under miscarriages of justice. Surely, the actions of the hierarchy of the Post Office would be under legal advice. Contracts, Prosecutions and even failed mediations would all involve the Post Office having legal representations that sought to take full advantage of sub postmasters and deny them any rights, in order to protect the Post Office and its interests. The Post Office must have paid millions in legal fees to law firms and lawyers, whilst victimized sub postmasters got nothing.
Spot on. 100%. This case calls into question not just the Post Office but the legal profession too.
rishi sunek signed off the 100 million of tax payers money to send people to jail ilegaly .yet day after exsposer he was there again lying in house of commons pretending this 1 st he heard of it all.
checking to see if youtube removed my comments showing decent to tory .
Why no appearance by Law Society or Solicitors Regulation Authority? Or the Senior Pzrtners of Inns of Court, Judges who heard cases and didn’t ensure proper case presentation in Court - the Legal profession and maybe the Accounting profession yet again are getting away with it. The poor quality of management is stunning - no apparent knowledge of ethical and legally required standards of ALL activities by ALL personnel at ALL levels. THE RULE OF LAW AFFECTS EVERY ACTIVITY AND SPEECH in employment. IGNORANCE IS NO DEFENCE IN EYES OF LAW.
The Post Office horror show is from bad or no proper education of its staff. Paula Vennells too. She is a Foundation course Ba in trash Theology.
This channel is brilliant, no nonsense, no fluff, straight to the point and very informative.
I will be quite surprised if anything happens to any senior post office manager. They are members of the “management class” and they look after each other.
Definitely yes I have said from the start how do you compensate for the lives that were lost either by heart attack, suicide etc!!
These deepdives into particular laws are fascinating, and I think they are really useful in helping people to understand the workings of our judicial system. It's all much appreciated, thank you.👋🇺🇦🇪🇺
POL lawyers that also knew and didnt disclose this info need to be disbarred as well.
IMO the lawyers should go to jail as well.
All these post masters were doing their job as normal. A computer system is introduced and now all of a sudden there are loads of these hardworking trustworthy post masters being accused of fraud and theft! Didn't ONE person not see that? People in her employ getting a financial incentive for every prosecution that was successful in court. The list of out and out cover ups and not even investigating the computer company etc. She knew exactly what was happening to these poor people. It's still going on now. People in top jobs getting a massive bonus and an OBE or whatever it was she got. These people like MP's need to be held accountable. Let's face it! The only true financial winners will be the legal companies and she will get a pathetic sentence if at all?!
Accusing some one of fiddling when they are honest people, and sacking them, marking them as crooks, the shame could of been too much. The Post Office actions is then to blame for their deaths, as without the accusations and sackings they would still be alive. To my mind they are definitely responsible for any deaths.
Paula Vennells et al will turn up at the inquiry and refuse to answer questions on the grounds that the answers may incriminate them.
A lack of answers would essentially do that either way. The enquiry is under oath, just like in court.
Post office senior management and officials have blood on their hands. I was trained on the horizon system and its unnecessary complicated, add to that the system had glitches and faults and they did nothing about it other than blame the postmasters. The humilation, the mental and physical stress they must have gone throught, at no point did any of the post office management say there is something not right here. All those postmasters complaining about the system yet no one chose to review the system and bring in independent IT experts to check of their was a issue, i say independent cause it seems post office didnt seem to want to admit of any issues!
The slightly bigger problem is the various governments that presided over the Post Office. As single shareholder, the government did and does have liability for the activities of it's company.
Well yer but there's reports from day one of it being rubbish and not fit for purpose, as it was being built. But post office board signed off on it anyway and put it in.
There's then a short period when they give out vouchers to cover the fake overs and unders.
Then they start sacking postmasters, like Alen Bates; if they kept saying it was horizon that was wrong.
Shortly after that they go for the first prosecutions, fail. They then subsequently successfully lobby the government to change the rules, that a computer system can be normally thought of as working, without investigation. So now it's on the postmasters to prove a system, they don't have records access to, was faulty on the day issues occurred.
Making it their job to prove innocence. Not the post offices to prove guilt, or even that money existed.
It appears around that time that bonuses get linked to the prosecutions. As do ones for making the post office look more profitable off the money they nicked.
It'll just depend how much institutional knowledge was passed on with each decision by the directors and management.
For sure ! They won’t lose a night sleep over it ! 🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤢🤪🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮🤮
They did bring in IT experts to check Horizon, they were called Second Sight, and they found faults in Horizon which the PO covered up.
@@ncooper8438 SS were forensic accountants, not IT Experts. That said, it's not difficult to understand that database admins have the access to do anything they like with the data in a database. An investigation would not be necessary to work this element out.
I hope that a KC will take this on Pro Bono Publico as the Post Office and Fujitsu Management knew that the Horizon system was flawed even as it was put into operation - Both need to be held to account because at least four Sub Post Masters committed suicide and god alone know how many attempted it because of the greed of the Post Office and Fujitsu Management
Im glad you mentioned the role of the Post Office lawyers in this. I assume they are solicitors (as opposed to being qualified barristers), so will have to act in accordance with the SRA principles, chief among which is the duty to act in a way that upholds the rule of law and proper administration of justice. I can’t see how those with knowledge of what was going on and helped the PO pervert the course of justice will be allowed to remain on the Roll.
I suspect the risk of political embarrassment will be enough to ensure Vennells isn't charged with anything serious. Of course, if it's deniable there's a chance significant charges will go ahead but if there's a likelihood of politicians or ex politicians finding themselves in the dock I think we can forget it.
I've not heard of anyone suggesting some kind of case being made against Post Office ministers over the years. One way serving MPs can be punished is at the ballot box ie not be re-elected.
Ed Davey needs to be at the top of that list...
if the govt chicken out on this then bates has said his group will sue them, and govt will be damned forever!!
Mr Robertshaw, keep up the great work with these videos on the law, especially relating to the Post office!
I would like to think when Sir Wyn delivers his findings, he , counsel to the inquiry, core participants, CPS and Police all sit around a table and go through and recommend who get ‘nicked’!
Although on paper some of the Post Execs should be locked up, as one of the sub postmasters said “ don’t jail them, hit them in their pockets!
Watching the last few days of the inquiry, lm sick and tired of people pipping up saying how sorry they are, unreserved apologies etc etc ie Alan Cook…… words are cheap🤦🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
I would hope so, and our former PM and Chancellor plus Health Minister for their negligent actions during their management of the COVID19 outbreak.
Vennells should get an extra month inside for every lie she is caught out telling in court.
I would make it a year😊
People make mistakes. Let us separate the ENQUIRY part from the COMPENSATION part. Corporations have no soul to be damned, nor a body to be kicked. But ordinary people have been wronged.
FIRST And because the mistakes were all about money, the King as the servant of these people, should sequester from the purse of the Exchequer that the wronged subbies be compensated justly and immediately. Probably £1-2m each would be a start.
SECOND Then Fujitsu, Post Office, Royal Mail Group, lawyers, Legal firms and courts can fight over who is to blame and how the Exchequer is to be repaid. They can have as many enquiries as they like over as much time as they like, but we can all move on!
The CPS could have looked at these private prosecutions and realized there was something wrong, taken them over and dropped them. Perhaps whoever was running the CPS at the time needs looking into as well.
Watching today's enquiry......just when I thought my level of trust couldn't stoop any lower
As a retired HSE manager i agree with your assessment, corporate manslaughter can occur if. A significant hazard is identified and no action is taken then management can be assessed as being negligent ,after a re assessment of the hazard and still no action to eliminate the hazard then they can be assessed as being grossly negligent. They can be grossly negligent or criminally negligent if serous harm occurs directly related to the identified hazard. The guidelines require management to take all reasonable practical steps to eliminate the hazard. The sociological injurious fall into this category. We have a like situation in New Zealand in the PIKE RIVER Mine disaster .
We are watching this post office case with great interest. KIA KAHA (stay strong).
All this kind of questioning came up with the Herald of Free Enterprise sank. I was on that, pregnant, with a 6-month and an 18 month old baby. We survived, and it turned out the whole incident while human error, what's in fact a corporate issue. Yet corporate could not be prosecuted, and people began to clamer for a change in the law.
What ever happens, this is going take years still. Because even after this enquiry finishes. When compensation is agreed and paid. Then all relevant documents are handed over to the police/CPS etc, those trails will take years. It’s frustrating but here we are. In the meantime these people carry on with their privileged lives.
Fascinating (as well as horrifying). Thank you so much for the insights.
There is a high probability that sending people to prison for a crime they did not commit would end a certain way for some! They knew from the start how this would end but probably wanted to increase their chances of bonuses at all costs even life! All narcissistic behaviour from people at the top and they are probably in most organisations!
I hope ,but we know that we’ll never happen! They well walk away with their full pensions ! The criminals they are !
What about the investigators? There are overtones that some weren’t too professional!
Thank you, May i ask do you think the senior management should be suspended upon investigation and if found guilty could their bonuses be taken back.
I personally believe gaol as senior managers have perverted tbe course of justice?
Everyone's pointing to vennels but previous chairman " Alan Leighton" bears just as much responsibility as he was Chairman from 2003 - 2009
There should have been prosecutions in relation to weapons inspector David Kelly.
I have been watching this scandal unfold the last 10 years. (From Australia.) In the past if I mentioned it, people would roll their eyes thinking I'm crazy.. but since the mini series came out many in Australia are going ohhhh. Bad post office.
Excuse the ramble. I have enjoyed your legal perspective of what's going on. While the UK and Australian laws are similar, they also have unique differences..
Completely failed in their “duty of care” HASWA 1974 Section 7 as well as breaches of other sections. Criminality is rife in this case and they tried to obstruct the process of investigation which is an offence in its own right. Many of the legal team should be disbarred?
Convictions for manslaughter in the UK don't even break into 3 figures, most of them for small companies. What's needed are fat fines for the senior management involved, at the level that would see Paula V and co made bankrupt. But Fujitsu and especially their forerunner ICL have put too much in to the Tory coffers over the years for that to happen.
Many of your fellow legal eagles have a lot to answer for, but do you see really the toothless dogs of the SRA and Bar Standards doing much about them?
The LYING CHRISTIAN should be in prison. She has blood on her hands.
Paula the first vicar sentenced to Bellmarsh
Could anyone in the Post Office be charged with the old Villains nemesis 'Demanding money with menaces'. Some of those Post Masters under threat, plead guilty and paid up to avoid gaol.
Scotland say ‘Culpable Homicide’!
If the PO lot ended up in court being charged with who knows what, would it be a jury trial? And if so, where would they get a jury who hadn't already decided they deserved the death penalty?
Where does the DWP stand on this type of situation
Damned good question. How many people have topped themselves, due to having their benefits stopped?
I had to fight for two years to get what I was entitled to, if it stopped, I'd be screwed.
?
@@andydudley1775 People who have been driven to suicide by having benefits and allowances unreasonably and incorrectly witheld.
@@obtuse1291If a former sub-postmaster has been convicted with evidence which subsequently is shown to be a perversion of the course of justice, the withholding of benefits would not merely be incorrect and unreasonable. It would be wrongful and unlawful.
Good morning to you. I am glad to see this video, it seems that it's been a while. The content is very interesting to me, all the aspects covered. I do hope that you get better shortly. Just FYI, I don't believe that I have froliced since I was a teenager 😅. Thank you, 😊.
the manslaughter proposition is theoretical - as a practical issue unlikely to happen - as you point out Novus actus interveniens (new intervening acts) you would have to exclude any other factor that could have contributed to the death and that would be difficult to do - stick to perjury and perverting the course of justice both carry significant penalties and bear in mind that each wrongful prosecution would/could count as 1 charge so there are going to be nearly a 1000 counts of perverting the course of justice - the lawyers are in the sh*t for breach of duty to the court as well as the failure to disclose to the defendant - dont forget crimes can be positive acts (eg robbery) OR withholding or refusing to act in circumstances that require a positive action (eg failure to provide necessities of life) i am thinking also that malicious prosecution may arise and/or post office staff as prosecuting officers on the public purse misfeasance in public office
I've been following you and this case with interest from Canada. This may sound like a facetious question but one that bothers me considerably in many decisions including here in Canada. If Paula Vennels and other executives could be tried and potentially convicted of manslaughter due to the tragic results of their (malicious) prosecutions (and I think they all should be), what about the courts that erroneously convicted these people? We learn of far too many cases where the judge was also either malicious or incompetent or biased yet they get to carry on in their positions with impunity after it has been proven that they got it egregiously wrong.
Great question, they can't be above the law themselves so how are they held accountable?
Thanks Alan, another great video. It does seem to me that corporations and public bodies have placed before us (from Cabinet to council to e.g. a company making soap) the idea that “collective” decision is the order of all these entities. Your point of discovering the instructing individual, or say a few such individuals, seems to me to be more truthful about the true essence of “collective decision”. Collective decision does not really exist, or exists only as a cover story. The ‘danger’ to the establishment seems they are concerned when individuals become detached and prosecuted. Perhaps they don’t like that for obvious self serving reasons😊
Murder - "Cause serious injury that results in death"
I was on a jury many years ago at the Old Bailey when precisely this came up. Neither motive nor intention to kill were even part of the test, not like the courtroom dramas you see on the TV!
Of course, the perp clearly intended to cause serious injury (a stab with a 7" knife will do that), but I don't think they intended to kill. Very enlightening it was too.
Very interesting! Hi from Manitoba, Canada. Law has always interested me. (Any countries law)
It's 08.00 GMT South East London and the views are going mental !!! 👉😵👈👉🇬🇧👈❗
Very interesting, many thanks. Now then, what if the missing money was found to be not a computer "glitch," but it was syphoned off into somebody's personal account? Would that person be liable for Murder or manslaughter? ALSO if a higher authority decided to stop or prejudice the trial, could that person be liable?
Aujard is in for a roasting - Arbuthnot monstered him
Well I hope they do follow this route. I watched her evidence over 3 days. Brand and reputation protection at all costs. Shameful.
CEOs of large organisations readily accept the high salaries they are paid, in return they should be held liable for any failures within those corporations.
Excellent post Al. Thank you very much.
What would a full "shopping list" of all the potential charges that could be laid at the door of the various actors in the POL executives look like?
Could any of them be charged with Joint Enterprise and/or Conspiracy?
Great videos, Res Ispa Loquitor, there is no need to prove it. PO and Ck are guilty of criminal negligence.
They will all hide behind the classic excuse "I don't recall."
Precious metal that wasn't used to produce military equipment was turned into all-metal stretchers for ARP, later renamed the Civil Defense Service. Unlike traditional stretchers made of wood poles and canvas, these metal stretchers could be more easily mass produced. Moreover, the metal construction allowed the stretchers to be cleaned in the case of a chemical gas attack. Over half a million of the stretchers were produced before World War II began.
After the war, Britain began the long process of rebuilding. In London, many housing estates lost their metal railings to raw material collections for the war effort. With the war over, thousands of metal stretchers were, thankfully, unneeded. As a quick-fix, London County Council began repurposing these stretchers as metal railings.
Casualty carry is a common training exercise in the Army. I was offered Robert Nairac's job, was good enough to get the Regular IRA to talk, and said no. I couldn't stop my skills, and ended up a civvy in a Staff Colonel's slot, working for the former Head of Belgian Army Legal Services, which ended up working with a Belgian Supreme Court Judge, earning legist rank, which then had the UK MinJust ask me in on the StatuteLaw Beta Test Panel.
Manslaughter aside, senior PO officials who knew that Horizon was defective and who oversaw 100’s of prosecutions knowing this are going to grip the rail here at least for PCJ. It’s a coach and horses through the requirements of CPIA 1996 as well although I don’t think there’s a specific offence in the 1996 Act.
Mans Laughter. Their contempt was / is so great.
Just me or anyone else spectacularly disappointed by the lawyers questions(with the exception of Beer). The core participants lawyers often waffle and build up to nothing, failing to land a glove on the witnesses. Example, Andrew wise absolutely hammered the guy with tash and round glasses - made him.look silly!!😮😂
Those lawyers are in very deep poo!
I've been waiting for this. Thank you.
Well expressed and explained !
Great video thanks for keeping us up2date. Hope you feel better soon
Great video.
The incident cited of the woman who poured acid on her former partner but was cleared of his murder when he subsequently went to Dignitas is one that I remember. However could I ask about the three year limit you cited for such a legal action against an offender? I recall another similar case where a chap set his girlfriend or ex girlfriend on fire deliberately in the late eighties (after covering her in some flamable liquid). The lady survived and the chap went to prison, serving 15 years. However, five or six years after his release (so 20 years or so after his original crime) the victim died and the medical authorities considered that her catastrophic injuries were contributory to her death irrespective of them being from decades ago. The offender was rearrested and convicted of her murder and sentenced to, I think, over 30 years - with the 15 years he'd served knocked off the time he had to do. Now, don't get me wrong, as far as I'm concerned they could throw away the key and I'm not in any advocating for this chap but I am interested in (1) how is his case materially different from the acid lady's who was found not guity of murder (2) why did the three years from violence to victim's death rule not apply in his case. I'd really appreciate if you had time to reply but, if not, thanks for this video which was so interesting. You have a gift for explaining law in the plain terms that it should, frankly, be administered in.
In some of the cases will the CPS end up prosectuting itself ?
Why did the Sub postmasters not set up multiple limited liability companies to contract with POL? They then would have a chance of limiting any liabilities in the same way as POL does. The SPMs could split the shop , home out into one company and the very limited "POL counter only. " into another company with very limited capitalisation. This would mean that POL could not go after the home or other personal assets.
Wild guess - because POL would only allow individuals to become sub postmasters.
And as they accused the sub postmasters of criminal acts they could have lifted the corporate veil
I guess as well. An individual has unlimited liability therefore they become a better mark if you wish to extract cash from them.
Would the legal system allow for a civil claim for damages by the SPMs against those in the Post Office guilty of supressing the truth, possibly as a class action? Alternatively could the Proceeds of Crime legislation be used against these people? If it bankrupted them all well and good!
Get well soon.
There is a large number of people within the Post Office who knowingly allowed people to go to jail incorrectly.
It is only correct that now the game is up. They do their time in jail. And the sooner that occurs the better
What were the Post Office’s stated core values which all employees were required to follow? Did they actually have any stated core values?
Whether it is in the law or not to charge for manslaughter is down to the semantics of lawyers, run it past a jury and you will truly find out what the average person on the street thinks!
What else? The subpostmasters were sold a faulty product,instead of scrutinising the product the administration processes judge people, whoever dares to complain
is guilty. The common law says people always are persumed innocent until proven guilty really if their guilt was proven what was their crime.Complaining about an outsourced function where the government forgotten encluding a as you say worksafety percausion designed for digitalised new system.
Isn't the proportionality and reasonable rule much narrower?
I believe scrutinising the first complaint about these lame efficient automatic systems beyond doubt be something like a 6month Guarantee for a washing machine if one brakes down or a child manages climbing into it it's not a safe product.
It was up to the government signing a contract protecting their postmasters not the government's administration system scaring people out of their wits with their ongoing refusal accepting common law by insisting they are guilty until they proof themselves innocent once administration admits to that may be it can contemplate processing people as if they were sausages eventually becomes unreasonably stupefying to the point of complicit murder.
Alan's videos remind me of the Batman TV series. What will happen in next week's exciting episode!!!!!?????
What about the men that altered the figures in Fujitsu's IT contact centre that the Postmasters spoke too at the time for help,will they get prosecuted.😮
Watered down charges may be brought against a few individuals in the lower ranks. And don't forget Fujitsu staff are not completely blameless.
I think corporate manslaughter only penalises the tax payer. I would be interested in your thoughts on who is risk of jail time apart from Paula? Could we start with the lawyers and their chambers/firms and then move onto their instructing staff at the post office? What about staff at Horizon?
I think they should face corporate murder charges. Todays interview showed us just what the Postmasters were up against. Watch and draw your own conclusions, then think, exactly why did these people think they could get away with this. Because they have up to now by totally denyied everything. Imagine a murderer doing this in court. That would be rare....not. So at what point do we realise the murderer is lying though their teeth despite all the evidence and the smoking gun in their hand with their finger prints all over it.
The date's important because the Law isn't retrospective, so if the events led to a death before 2008, that's a different thing from the same thereafter.
Even if the investigation recommends prosecution, it all then depends on whether the CPS wants to proceed, and there could be all sorts of political interference to drop it as 'not in the public interest', even though the public are demanding it. Vennells is in the cross hairs for criminal proceedings, but the ones responsible for altering Postal accounts must also be included, along with several others at the Post Office management. Money was made out of deliberate wrongdoing and has to be punished by the law, but it remains to be seen if the establishment allow it.
Isn't the root cause of this entire scandal the post office's power to prosecute? If, when they suspected fraud, the PO's only recourse was to contact the police to investigate, do you think these horrible events could have happened? I'm interested in your opinion.
What kind of “trouble” will the lawyers face due to their actions on behalf of The Post Office?
Health and safety , now a director has to be named as H&S director .
That answered my questions very thoroughly. Ta!
They were culpable I’d say especially if at the point of him doing it they knew they were wrong and tried to cover it up ?
What's the canon law position, since she's ordained?
can you do a bit more on the perverting the course of justice, fascinating video.
Also if Vennells said (effectively "all Sub Post Masters are theives) would that be defamation/slander ?
Manslaughter charges against the Post Office? what a waste of time! Individuals made the decisions that caused this misjustice and individuals should be charged. Not the organisation. The Post Office did not make the decision to prosecute people who were not guilty, individual executives made the decision. These individuals would love the prosecution to focus on the organisation, corporate responsibility is a massive cop out. Individual people make the decisions and those people should be charged.
Thank you
Absolutely, if they hadn't manufactured these investigations charges, told lies, ect ect those who have died wouldn't have been in a situation where they came to take their life, charge them all
Does not perverting the course of justice normally result in a custodial sentence.
How does anyone Get "Done" I know they can be prosecuted, they can be charged, they can be arraigned, and, of course they can be arrested. But how legally can someone be "done". I know that "done" is the past participle of the verb 'to do'. But that verb has to be attached to another word or phrase in order to make sense (adverb or adverbial phrase), "as in we need to do the task". then we could say "It has been done". However, how can you with ANY reference to grammatical correctness, can we say that a human being can be "done"?
I think she's unfortunately probably above being prosecuted, based on the British "Justice" System.