2T failure due to engine braking
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- Опубліковано 9 лют 2025
- Many people commented that they didn't understand how a 2T can heat seize when engine braking - that's this video
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You don't seem to be taking into account or even fully understanding the fact that the oil comes out of suspension in your fuel and pools in the bottom of your crankcase. The motor is not relying on the oil that is coming in with your fuel, it is being splash fed by the oil in your crankcase. Virtually all the seizures you see in 2T's are due to the motor being out of tune ie to lean or out of spec in some way. the scenario you are describing is not accurate at all regarding lubrication in a 2T motor.
LOL and even more laughing......
Where do heat seizes take place? I think its you that doesn't understand.
"the oil comes out of suspension in your fuel and pools in the bottom of your crankcase."
- true and this is the problem.
"The motor is not relying on the oil that is coming in with your fuel, it is being splash fed by the oil in your crankcase."
- splash fed, have you looked into the bottom of your crankcase? Splash lubrication is a real thing, but there isn't enough (unless your premix or pump is way too high) there to splash. If this was the case then where does all this oil go? Or do YOU have to empty your engine out every 4 weeks?
"The motor is not relying on the oil that is coming in with your fuel, "
- the cylinder is........
"or out of spec in some way"
- Like insufficient oiling.
"the scenario you are describing is not accurate at all regarding lubrication in a 2T motor."
- that's not what people keep saying now is it? Look at the comments below -
Riding around for an hour, high revs low revs, then revved, shut the throttle and seized. Lean running?
Wow, pinned comment. I feel a little special. Look I'm not saying it doesn't happen, But in all my years of building riding racing and tuning 2T motors I've never seized one from engine braking. Seized from running lean yes, And cold seized yep sure but never the scenario you give. And when i have seen it, there has been another contributing factor. People say all sorts of things on here, doesn't mean they know anything, people in these comments have talked about seizing bottom ends from engine braking, clearly a bottom end seize is not from the conditions you describe. Also people have mentioned running as lean as 80:1 that's just asking for trouble and excessive wear if not a seizure. You ask have i looked in my crankcase? yes many times and there is always a decent pool of oil as there should be in any well tuned and properly running 2T. This leads me to ask have you looked in many 2stroke motors? Anyone who's pulled there barrel to do a piston change should of noticed on spinning their crank that the bottom of the lobes are wet from sitting in oil. The fact that you ask me what happens to the oil makes me strongly question your experience with and understanding of the 2stroke motor. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Ha, great topic this ~ back in the 70's when I used to dragrace 2stroke triples, this was a constant problem ; after doing a staunch pass & rolling off the throttle through the traps, there was always the worrying threat of the mill snap ceasing. We always figured there were multiple factors at work...shut throttle decreases oil output from injector pump, sudden rise in cylinder temp after a hot run and you close throttles removing the air-fuel flow that was keeping things cool...shit like that...
...residual oil in the crankcase(s) being part of the lubrication circuit tho'...don't think so. Not unless 2stroke design changed enormously and no one told me about it. As I recall it, that oil building up in the crankcase(s) was one of the prime reasons early 2strokes fouled plugs...it was a constant PITA...
...scrape the memory here.... Matt said he owned a 'kettle' ...Suzuki GT750 water-cooled 2stroke triple (here down-under we called them 'bottles' =) ... so he'll know this stuff...all the Suzuki road 'strokers back then, sported what Suzuki called 'TCCS' or similar...iirc, 'total crankcase combustion system'. What used to happen, is you'd be doddling around town, get on the open road, rev the thing into band, ..once..., and all the turbulence in the crankcase would stir up the un-used residual oil, throwing big blobs of it up the transfer ports, and 9 times out of 10 it'd foul a sparkplug....
...to get around this, Suzuki put drain ports in the bottom of the crankcases, and cross-connected them via hoses and check valves to the adjacent cylinder's transfer port, ensuring this oil continually got pumped/recycled back into the combustion process, stopping the things from fouling plugs all the time...
Yeah it is a good topic, very contentious. Residual oil in the crankcase is definitely part of the lubrication circuit, the very point you make about excess oil fouling plugs proves that it's making it's way around the motor including the top end. 2t design has come a long way since those old smokers , thats for sure. I had a GT250 X7 back in the day and loved it. Haven't had the fouling trouble you refer too though. Those old air cooled motors were a bitch for cold seizing, as were a lot of the newer water cooled road bikes, in paticular the TZR250 and the RZV500. You'd be cruising around at low revs and if you weren't careful the sudden spike in temp when you hit the gas would cause them to nip up. I agree though there are multiple factors at work when they seize like you describe.
...no, respectfully..have to disagree about residual oil in the crankcase being part of the lubrication system. The reason Suzuki did TCCS in the first place, if I remember the sales brochure at the time, was to decrease smoke emissions under hard acceleration, something the old strokers were renouned for. Oil sitting in the crankcase(s) was a -problem-, not a boon to help lubrication. Yes, I did point out this oil would get kicked up by air turbulence coming off a high revving crankshaft, but, this would only occur at wide open throttle up in the powerband, when there was enough induction air being sucked&pumped through the crankcase(s) - with closed throttle, the turbulence decreases significantly (which is why the stuff used to build up putting around town on partial throttle). Back in the day when they made 2stroke engined cars as well, a lot of them employed a one-way clutch on the engine output, specifically to allow the engine to idle during deceleration events to avoid this type of engine brake seizing. Fouling plugs became less and less of an issue during the 70's, with the advent of hightech, low ash 2stroke oils, but prior to that many 2stroke riders (like me) kept a spare set of sparkplugs (or two) under the seat for the inevitable fouled plug. The GT250/X7 was a good bike, much preferred it over the yammy RD250 of the day =)
Engine braking ? More like engine breaking, am I right ?
Yeah I'll show myself out.
Poptart McJelly 😂😂😂😂😂
Poptart McJelly /
Lol, I like your style.
😭😭
Damn Matt really does post more than any other UA-cam
Kyle TheTreeKat pump them out!
I post more video than UA-cam! lol
The Workshop yep, less broken than UA-cam too
Yeah Mark( :D ) is like Chuck Norris.
My dad taught me at a very early age to appreciate the smell of castrol R in a 2 stroke.
Love the smell of two stroke in the morning? I remember using Castrol R 20 or R 30 ( I think that is what it was called) years ago, smells great.
Castrol beans in the morning smells awesome.
Castor is the safest bet with wide open high HP applications.
Sure does it smells nice..but not so to the environment.(unburnt HC)
This problem was most common in big bore...500cc single cylinders. There was a technique taught or learned the hard way that used holding the throttle open whilst tapping the kill switch. Another technique was to pull the clutch and keep the revs up
just pull in the damn clutch
thats what i did for 40 yrs of riding 2T Matt is % right as he is most all the time
It was once suggested to me to press the kill button instead of closing the throttle then pull in the clutch prior to closing the throttle then release the kill switch...
I know this sounds a bit complicated but it's served me in good stead...
My two cents, keep your vids coming!!
one time this thought of 2T engine breaking and how it works by looking at the exhaust design.. I thought it would be a disaster. This answers everything, thank you.
I reinstalled the autolube system on my DT1 250 and cringed when I put my first tank of straight gas in it. I had a fresh piston kit ready for the worst which is still sitting on the shelf a year later. It runs straight off the crank...With modern injector oil the thing hardly smokes either.. Its fucken great! It totally overcomes this issue and it been around since the 60s.. I was so skeptical but I`m a convert!
A premix bike on a long winding downhill you can also blip the kill switch with the throttle.I run a left thumb operated kill switch for this very reason. This dumps unburnt fuel which lubricates and also because it now evaporates you get a heat exchange which cools !
I was thinking that! If you can get a oil injection system to work reliably, in theory it’s a lot better than premixing.
@@jaydenbrockington4525 oil injection systems are pretty reliable. Decades of running 2 strokes and never had a pump fail.
Wait a minute... I've smoked for 15 years and never got cancer... therefore cancer and smoking aren't related?
No. That's just dumb. I know quite a few pump systems that have failed...
@@thedirtyworkshop , honestly never met anyone who has had a pump fail. Plenty of people repeating it as an excuse to move to premix, but nit had one doing it because their pump failed.
Not really much to go wrong in them, beyond owners forgetting to fill the oil tank.
Unlike premix which can separate (not so much with modern oils), and where the rider needs to get the mixture right at every fill up, be aware of engine braking issues and put up with a far richer oil mixture much of the time.
Piggin engines have a toothed belt driving the pump, these belts are shite and snap. There's a similar system on gas gas engines and they can suffer the same fate
What a downer, downshifting on a 2 stroke is one of the best bits without that annoying 4 stroke engine braking, I never thought I could be trashing the engine.
Hi Matt, great videos, so glad I stumbled onto your workshop, told my friends too, this one scares the life out of me, I never give any of this a thought in the 70s when I was flat out on my FS1E and my RD250A, I never ever thought there might be a problem and there never was, I can't even remember any of my friends having issues either, sounds like we was lucky....
Callum is correct on many things. Most of the oil falls out of suspension once it enters the motor and gets warmed up. This is one of the reasons why 2 strokes smoke much more when cold. That oil isn't fully falling out of suspension when cold and is being burnt in the combustion chamber. In modern 2 stroke race motors there are gallies or passages ways for oil and fuel/oil mix to permeate through the motor. There are two holes on top of the bottom end that lead directly to the main bearings. Fuel/oil is pumped through there and the oil falls out of suspension and does a little lubing. This happens everywhere in the motor. This is exactly why tuners will drill a hole through the piston where the piston aligns with the exhaust bridges. These areas are known to get little oil and these holes allow more oil in there to do its trick
8 years of building and racing 17,500 rpm karts. We would lean them out down the straight to pass a "difficult customer" .(yes, driving one handed and tuning high speed jet).
When we backed off for the next corner, we knew to "pat" the air filter and dump some fuel on the piston.
The heat sink from the straight, with decreasing air flow, and lack of thermal dissipation from fuel would otherwise seize them regularly.
yep, been there done that.
Just to add, fuel is a coolant as well as the oil carrier. The small blips of the throttle cool the piston and cylinder and lubricate on the RPM drop rather than running dry.
if a 2 stroke is going to sieze, it will usually sieze at the end of a straight, once you close the throttle. it was common practice to use the thumb choke at the end of a straight on tz yamahas.
If the oil is kept inside the piston rings like a cheese in sandwich ,not escaping out from top or bottom ring with normal 4 stroke oil feeding through the reconnecting rods to the piston rings then have a cut off for oil as the piston reached the exhaust and intake port holes,...Love all this enginy bollocks .keep up with the good work.
Interesting, all my bikes are old Yamaha Enduros so this video is great information for me to have.
Lambretta's suffer terribly from closed throttle starvation, Vespa's without autolube can suffer a little, had a heatseize at 70 on the A303 as it was a terribly hot and humid day and had been in a lot of stop start situations, luckily it was more of a heat "nip" than a seize and no damage occurred. However Vespa autolube systems seem to be quite clever as the 2 stroke oil is fed from the clutch engine side via a gear and the oil is squirted via a channel underneath the carb so the oil will always be fed regardless of throttle position at engine speed rather than engine demand.
if you get heat seize on a lambretta its engine set up mostly , they have poor cooling anyway as the cooling area is designed for the originally small block motor ,125 ,150 cc so if your running a 200 , 225 cc.its not designed for this job or to run on motorways at 70 mph. fuel mixture , ignition timing and compression ratio needs to be perfect . week mixture makes engine hot , advanced ignition makes it hot and high compression also makes it heat up . rule of thumb timing 17 degrees. compression 8.5/1. jetting best done on a dyno unless you are experienced with this, finally dont listen to this guy he is clueless mate . if you are flat out and then closed throttle and it seizes . its week mixture at closed throttle. coursed by poor idle jetting / incorrect float height . and the pilot jet in not getting fuel . and also fuel flow . hope that helps buddy
Hi Matt, suzuki rgv250 engines have separate oil lines to the cylinder base in addition to the carbs, but the oil pump flow rate is still linked to throttle position, even though the pump is driven off the gearbox, maybe that extra gearbox rpm will give you more oil even with throttle closed.
apx5777 yeah I always thought on autolube systems, even when throttle is closed you should still get some 2t oil coming though to engine. The pump on my Yamaha runs off engine drive shaft. And is after throttle slide. So always believed oil is still getting to engine. Even when throttle is rolled off the idle screw stops closing it fully. And oil is still sucked into engine.
only a very very small amount of oil will be and not the correct amount for given high rpm. the autolube meters oil based on throttle position, that's why a separate cable from the throttle goes to the pump and the speed of the pump is insignificant, a very very lean amount of oil is in the mix at closed throttle position. Thats how it works on old yammy 2ts anyway. RD for example
Yes, but RGVs have a simple mechanical system to further help with the issue, at least from high revs. While the power valves are open, the oil pump is held wide open, as if the throttle was wide open. Not perfect, as when the power valves close, so does the oil pump, but it helps.
A long time ago I had an RT1 360cc. (Pre- DT series) Yamaha. I had binding after a long wide-open throttle run, where the engine gets really hot, then closing the throttle to slow down.
I overcame this problem by keeping the throttle open whilst pushing the kill-switch on the run down.
This did two main things:- it kept the full oil induction going in, and added much cooling air to the engine because the spark plug was not firing the incoming Air/Fuel/Oil mixture.
The only problem with this method was that it was easy to over-do it and feather the plug.
i was just thinking about this...
To me, you are wrong. Lubrication in a 2 stroke does not work like you say. There is always mixture running in the system in relation to the RPM (Its called aspiration). Even going downhill and even if you dont open the throtle, the crankshaft while running creates vacuum and is still sucking mixture from the carburator (and from the fuel tank) and sending it to the engine in relation to the RPM.
The more rpm, the more mixture the engine aspires. EVEN if you dont have the throtle open. The engine never goes lean just because you lifted your hand from the throtle. The throtle only lets you increase the rpm. If what you say were true, this bike couldnt work: (a Jawa 350 running with gas and oil. (No fuel) www.rutasendosruedas.com/jawagas.jpg
The reason why you break a 2 stroke is NOT because you lifted your hand from the throtle and started to go downwill. The reason you break a 2 stroke is because you are going too lean, or the oil mixture is insuficient, or you have some bad joint sucking air (which makes you go lean) or you have incorrect spark plugns installed.
Aguijon1982 he don't know what he's talking about. I ported and Polished and hopped up two strokes in the 70s and they haven't changed any
really true !!! totalmente cierto,siempre existe entrada de mezcla del circuito de ralenti y la aspiracion del cilindro aunque bastante poca en comparacion a ir gas a tope o medio gas...
But.....but......11 year old kids on the internet said not to engine brake or your bike will blow up.
Well the pilot jet gets blocked depending on how much you close your throttle... and the only place where you are getting fuel from at that point is the idle jet and the idle jet is providing the amount of fuel/oil mixture for around 2000rpm or less. So when you close the throttle lets say at around 9000rpm the fuel/oil mixture is for around 2000 meaning its not enough.
I’ve NEVER seized a 2T by engine braking. But I’ve never engine braked down a steep mile long hill either
I've engined braked down a mile long hill on a CZ 250 twin..... and nothing bad happened. However the CZ 250 is a 33:1 petrol oil tank mix plus a 9.8:1 compression motor.
Split up the oil ratio, run premix and injection that way you still get lube expecially in the bottom end when the throttle is closed
This is a real problem when running two strokes on the street.
I live in Montana where you can plate mx bikes very easily. I run a cr500 on the streets, but only run 32:1 pre mix ratio and am sure to leave the throttle cracked when downshifting aggressively.
good vid my dt 125 has an auto 2t feed the throttle cable is attached to an oil pump and the throttle slide in the carb they both open as you twist the throttle so if you close the throttle you can blip it with the clutch in the vacuum helps draw the oil into the reed cage port i use engine breaking on my bike gear down throttle blip release clutch engine break i always blip my throttle because there is no oil feed if the throttle is shut off just fuel and air. my bike is still going strong
Even if you are decelerating, the idle jet is having to pull in the fuel mix at the same revs as the engine. Also oil doesn't just dissipate when you let off the throttle, you can empty a car's sump and it will run for ages as it's well coated with oil for a period of time. I've only ever seen people seize their mx 2 strokes when flatout giving it heaps of fuel, never when engine braking. Under power, mix a bit lean causing it to get hot, that's when it bites back.
thanks Matt keep em coming
I've got a GT380, oil injection based on throttle and RPM. Oil is injected directly into all the main bearings, and intake (to oil the cylinder). Also I have the pump adjusted a little on the heavy side, so pretty much immune to this.
Yes it was first introduced in 1966 by suzuki its called the Posi-force system.
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_T20
just watched the other video and started to watch the one you linked in the comments and thought why that would happen, then realized this likely only happens with crankcase breathing 2 strokes, and likely has to do with the throttle being the oil flow control, of course this is before i even watch this video, but i didn't want to forget
I have a question. To prevent engine breaking, do you have to pull in the clutch? Btw I’m just a beginner, I’m just trying to learn so I don’t blow up my bike! Thanks!
Blip the throttle with the clutch in - this allows fuel and oil into the engine
The Workshop thanks for replying man! I really appreciate it, I will be sure to sub to ur channel!
I used to let people ride my motorized bicycle, but now I realize that it's just too complicated for them. Even I was riding it wrong! 😐
Pretty much any auto lube system will depend on rpm (some modern ones are electrically powered - the one used by ktm seems to need to ve replaced as part of the service schedule). They need a drive to pump, and the engine is there to do it. Might have extra variation, probably based on throttle position and maybe other factors (eg, Tzr250 has an extra connection to the power valve servo).
I took an Aprilia oil pump to pieces a couple of months ago. It is in effect a variable stroke pump. How often it pumps is entirely down to rpm (from memory, 1 pump every 36 rotations of the pump drive - and the pump drive rotated every other crank rotation). The stroke is down to throttle position. The stroke is roughly double at full throttle compared to closed throttle.
Unlike premix systems it should be fine with engine braking.
Pe & Px series Vespas had an autolube system that added oil through a hole in the bottom of the floatbowl of the carb, it was driven off the gearbox mainshaft, couldn't use it in a tuned engine though(even if using the original carb), pretty much any extra power(even a tiny amount) over the 12hp the 200cc engine put out would break the autolube system.
loving the face u made over the New pens
Wait, not a single engineer on Earth thought of this situation? You were the first one on Earth to grasp the concept? Yep, I bet not one of them ever considered that concept.
Not disbelieving any thing you say. All sounds to reason, and this has been a topic for many years. I have been lucky i guess to never have had this happen to me. I engine break all the time riding in the mountains. I run 32:1 no smoke maxima on all my bikes. It would be great if someone would do an experiment and just engine break all the way down a mountain for 20 or 30 minutes. Or do top speed drags all day long chopping the throttle coasting to a stop. Maybe show photos and measurements of cylinder/piston before and after.
I will do that experiment - challenge excepted LOL
Thanks, you going to do the mountain or the drag?
the drag - don't have mountains round here
Sounds good.
I have never had a piston blow on me ever and I treat two strokes as badly as a ginger haired step child I have loads of mates with two strokes and none of their pistons have gone either you now wot its like in this day and age one person comes up with a new fad and everyone jumps on board they see a vid of someone riding a two stroke and their all on their ooooooh your engine braking your fucking your bike up and theyve never had a two stroke themselves and aint got a clue wot their talking about im not saying that about this guy he no,s his onions but everyone else jus jumps on the bandwagon id never heard the word engine break in the ninetys and I had cr250 rd250 loads of rg,s tzr,s nsr,s not a piston blown yes it sounds right about the lack of oil in the cylinder when you lift off but its the same when you tick over it doesnt blow then sometimes you need to engine brake on bad corners its part an parcell of riding a two stroke I think
The other reason you didn't mention is the retained heat in the engine. The induction of air has a large cooling effect on the piston, when you close the throttle the airflow of fuel air mix which in itself is a coolant, is stopped which allows the piston crown to swell more adding to the strain on the remaining oil on the cylinder walls.
TheGalifrey the fuel mixture itself acts as a coolant, not just the air mixed with it, petrol itself is quite a cold thing (adding methanol makes it even colder)
top 4 for yourube recommended for 2 stroke engine breaking
i can say with certainty. that newer systems have ignition cut. which means it leaves a small amount of fuel as it ramps down. also the drop off is not as steep on injection but that is 4 strokes
Many years ago when autolube first became popular a lot of Enduro riders would take the stuff off and use premix, I think that was to save the weight of having an oil tank and something less to go wrong.... In the 1970s a lot of bikes had marginal brakes so we used engine braking a lot, just learnt to blip the throttle a few times on long fast downhills.
thank you for proving my point to my mates. They call it mixing fuel but it's really just diluting the oil and using the fuel as a delivery system for the oil.
2ts are shite started to talk about that but you started ranting about how it's a shite design because fuel is a degreaser/solvent.
Cheers Matt
Let's just all get in on a group skype call. And converse for about an hour a day. Give matt a break on the videos XD
Matt, does the quality of your oil make any difference in this situation??? I use that Putoline RS959 Ester tech blah blah blah stuff, they say 'formulated for racing' etc etc (YPM's lol), in racing there is a lot of wide open > shut off riding going on. And talking of auto lube I have two 2T 125's from different manufactures and both have auto lube, on the same commute (300 miles per week) one uses a full litre of oil in 600 miles and the other can get 900 miles on a litre but both are set to stock injection settings, seems a bit weird!
"Matt, does the quality of your oil make any difference in this situation???"
- no, the mix ratio does. More on this tomorrow
close to all scooters use a rpm based oiling system, and they never seize on decel.
I think you mean every scooter that uses a hyper 2 piaggio engine, which is most scooters in the EU because piaggio has bought nearly all of them
well piaggio and gilera uses hyper engines, where yamaha and aprilla uses minarelli engines. pgo uses a minarelli copi and peugeot makes their own. But still they use pretty much the same system.
"well piaggio and gilera uses hyper engines,"
and derbi, vespa, italjet , some aprilias, kymco,..........
true that is matt.
The hi-per 2 ist straight out the most reliable small displacement 2 stroke ever made.I did 45k km with a 70 cc Dr ,the crank is now 60k old and it does not even show real wear on the bearings.But the main weakness is to really keep an eye on the pump gears and belt.They ruin your day in seconds. Morini has the best pumpdrive in my opinion, but the rest of my italjet f50 shit the bed in 3 months. A little cheat on piaggio is to preload the oil pump a bit and keep the the revs low with gearing and heavy roller weights. F*ck malossi, stick a dremel in a DR and be in torque wonderland for less money! If you learn the ability to tune everything for maximum low end grunt, it easily keeps up with expensive and quickly degenerating midrange setups.
Hi mate. I use to have a RM250, around an 89.
After spending time getting it running spot on, I was racing around a field when I noticed the power decreasing on every lap.
Long story cut, I was told by the bike shop, that the reason it seized was due to an air leak on the exhaust, when I was backing off, it was drawing air in, causing the exhaust facing side of the piston, to run lean. Hence the molten aluminium on the barrel.
Would this also be the case too?
Thanks.
"causing the exhaust facing side of the piston, to run lean."
- what? the exhaust side of the piston? sounds like crap to me. Total rubbish.
The Workshop, so having a faulty seal where the exhaust meets the barrel, will have no destructive effect on the piston and cylinder?
Just I'm paranoid about my engine seizing up again.
Thanks.
Sounds like there couldve been detonation going on.. Or it was already running lean in the first place, wrong ignition timing could also cause this.. Pff there are many other factors that come into play when a piston gets fucked that way yours did.
Go and tell that bloke at the shop hes a fuckwit cos "causing the exhaust side of the piston to run lean" is total bullshite haha
That's why my old wartburg 999 two stroke triple had a lever to engage free wheel clutch, shut the throttle and it just ticked over. And you used your brakes to slow the car cos that's what they were designed to do.
WHAT engine braking? Two strokes don't do engine braking. Suzuki CCIR two strokes have two points of oil injection, intake port and main bearings. The oil in the crank case is recirculated back through to the intake port again. The only seizure I have had have been due to piston overheating (bad timing, too lean a mixture) when racing a Kawasaki H1(center cylinder). What you are saying could happen on engine over run over a long distance on an engine running premix. On one with a lube pump these things are usually factored in, watch what happens when you open the throttle after a long downhill coast on over run, smokes like hell.
I have seen a few four stroke engines break a conrod due to engine braking from high RPM, as when the throttle is closed it puts more load on the conrod on the induction stroke. When the intake is closed off the vacuum increases above the piston, meaning the conrod is pulling the piston down against a vacuum. At high RPM this can be the straw that breaks the camels back.
what about advanced cylinder coating methods? I was told years ago that a good cylinder should hold oil in the metal long enough for the motor to never experience this seizure in normal conditions. in sure if you lose your brakes down a few mile hill this wouldn't hold true.
or just hone the bore.
I rebuilt a dirt bike of mine years ago and the bottom end seemed like a lot of the oil remains in there like the fuel evaporates and go's through the transfer ports to the top. I don't remember the ratio then. Are newer engines oil ratios the cause this?
Matt theirs a device that was in use in the carburetor days as an emission device on automobiles, that delayed the throttle from closing abruptly. The device that I am describing is called a"dashpot" [I am not shure if it has another name] but if you do it like Einstein [thought experiment] and not like DAN, you might think it's plausible.
That's another two cent's worth of contribution, hopefully someday it will add to a dollar...
I'm surprised there are some peeps that've owned bikes before that didn't know that 2t engines are so vulnerable to heat-seizing when you shut the throttle off under an engine braking scenario... I can understand it if all you've ever worked on or owned is 4t since they have a sump and full lubrication systems and because of that the only way to starve a 4t is block an oil galley or forget to put oil back in after changing it... or let it turn to sludge so it doesn't flow... with 2t as you quite rightly said, matt, the lubrication systems on a lot of 2t engines are very sensitive to the amount of throttle you're giving the engine. The further open you take it, the better your engine's lubricated... Sadly that also means a higher RPM, more frictional losses and therefore the benefit of that extra lubrication is pretty much zero... and the solvent properties of petrol are absolutely no help whatsoever in this regard! You're better off with a diesel 2-stroke if you want an engine that's a bit less prone to heat seizing... but even then, that doesn't fix the engine braking since your fuel is your lubricant in both instances... BUT at least you have more lubricity!
I'm surprised there are some people that own bikes that think this engine braking causing ail starvation is real.
It is for 2T engines if you don't blip the throttle frequently as your RPM drops. You have to remember with 2T engines that they rely heavily on pre-mixed fuel or a separate mixer system. Both permit a metered amount of fuel and oil mix to enter the crank case. When you close the throttle, the amount of fuel and oil that enters the engine is significantly decreased. When you let the engine spin over at high RPM for extended periods of time without introducing throttle here and there, you lose lubrication, which increases friction, which introduces more heat and can very easily cause the engine to lock up.
For 4T is't a totally different story because they have a pressurised pump system that's speed dependant, so you can happily engine brake with a 4T at high RPM with no throttle and not cause a lockup. the oil system will change pressure and flow with engine speed so you always have exactly the right amount of oil where it needs to be... unless you're a complete bumblefuck and don't check and change your oil, let it turn into sludge in your sump and seize your engine that way.
When i was driving my motorcross at a young age my father always told me to give some gas every now and then when engine breaking for this reason. Hit the clutch, rev it for 0,2 seconds release whilst breaking with the foot break.
Hi Workshop. Can we use the choke to add fuel and oil, when coming down 9k rpm's? thanks
Hi my Aprilia rs 125 has a seperate oil pump. Is it ok to engine brake on my bike? I don’t engine brake at all on my bike to stay on the safe side.
Yes mate its fine - we're talking about an extreme case here - when you are full throttle and then shut the throttle and engine brake.
Honda NSR125 here. Was wondering the same, seems that it's ok
What if you have a rekluse clutch?
VESPA PX autolube works on rpm i brake by bliping my throtle never had a problem
if your engine siezes thru engine breaking....you had to little oil in your mixture..simple as that...btw..shouldent engine break with 9k rpm any way...
I have a MZ ETZ 251, 2 stroke with oil injection, do I have to worry about this as well, or is this only for pre-mixers?
It depends of the oil injection is rpm based or throttle based
The oil pump is apparently ran by the primary transmission, and the dosage by a cable that runs along the throttle. So I suppose it's not good to do engine braking
@@mushybakaton8555 I also have a MZ ETZ :) I dont think you should worry in a system with automatic lubrication, but I just pull the clutch lever when I let go the gas
Two stroke engines with a performance inspired tune up (correct mixture, maximum ignition timing) are a balance of how much heat is produced vs. how much the engine can get rid of. Modern liquid cooled engines can do a good job through the cylinder walls but the biggest problem is getting the heat out of the piston. At wide open/high rpm the piston gets hot enough to be a pretty tight fit in the bore. The heat from combustion comes through piston and is transmitted to the cylinder so the tight fit helps in that respect. The piston also has fresh charge coming into the crankcase and cooling the back side of the piston crown. When the throttle is closed at high speed not only do you shut off most of the lubrication that come in with the fuel, but the cooling from the incoming charge stops too. A piston that was just right at WFO now gets just that much hotter for a bit and can grow just enough to rub the bore. There is also some additional action from the high vacuum created in the cylinder from the closed throttle. When the piston opens the exhaust port the low pressure will draw air from where ever it can and an expansion chamber full of hot dirty exhaust gas probably doesn't help anything.
BennHerr and this is why there's clearance :)
I've got an 80cc Derbi Senda which runs like shite when it's cold due to all those "tuning factors" once it reaches a nice temperature it's producing nearly 23bhp and can reach almost 17000 rpm where it gets that lovely F1 kinda whistle
I bet it does sound good! I come from the karting world and they certainly run engines on the bleeding edge there. Bad enough they run direct drive/one speed, but they let the driver tune it while he drives. They go through a lot of pistons....
i know exactly what you mean! Grew up with karting myself, this is also where i've learned how to tune!
But never liked the 100cc's / rotax automatics.. ive always been a shifter guy haha.
Still have a Superkart sitting here with a rotary inlet (yeah.. even more complicated tuning haha) 2 Cylinder 250cc pvp engine pushes about 98bhp! wouldve been cool if i could actually link pictures in here
PRJX Patrick I got an old ICA Vortex engine, 100cc it was fine when I start riding, but now I feel the kart is going to lean even when it 4strokes on the end of long straights. The Piston crown is full of dark caramel colour. Spark plugs B9es mixture 16:1 or 6%. What do you think can be? To much oil and makes me go lean
I've got into the habit of kill switch wide open engine braking on my 2stroker bicycle
Hey mate. Love the channel. Learnt so much cheers. My question is semi related in the fact that I ride motocross on a 2 stroke yz250. Will the constant chopping and twisting the throttle that’s associated with mx bring these dry cylinder issues into play or has Yamaha and the likes overcome these issues with something. Second question, is down shifting without clutch more dangerous on 2 strokes for this reason or do I have it wrong with what the engine does during downshifting?
Any load on the gearbox when shifting without the clutch is a bad idea. That's why they spent loads of money on a clutch
don't know if you mentioned diesels already, but my dads vw diesel and his ford diesel both reduce vehicle speed when gearing down, this is a non exhaust based engine braking, now what would you say causes this?
It depends what systems are in place and how old they are. But depending on that its usually something in the exhaust - EGR valve, particle filters, turbo, exhaust brakes (a butterfly similar to a throttle plate) or a compression brake (jake) etc
But all this will come when I start doing the diesel vids. Deisels genrally don't have the same braking effect that petrol engines do.
1984 and 1990, no egr on either (my dad's 92 gmc diesel and his 06 ford flowerstroke 6.0 have egr), no particulate filters, no turbo (my 96 gmc diesel has a turbo) , no exhaust brakes (my aunt and uncles {not real uncle} 9? ford idi diesel had exhaust brakes) what is a compression brake? other than letting go of the throttle there was no difference in operation when gearing down, it just spun really fast, maybe just all the losses and the vacuum pump running really fast caused a lot of drag? way back i thought it was the compression but realized the power stroke would cause a vacuum in return, only thing i can think is the losses throughout, i thought you would have a specific answer for some reason, thanks for replying
well i retrofitted part of a propane system to my diesel truck, you don't seem to have any diesel vids so i'll tell you here, or the hcci vid, i had it all set up, and it's automatic based on the vacuum you pull, and my filter is a little dirty, well i slowly bring it up through the revs and hear no change, suddenly up through the highest revs it starts to knock and take off (albeit not crazy high rpm for a diesel from what i hear, didn't check the tach) and i shut the ignition off and was dumb enough to hook the propane to the battery direct, so it keeps going like nothing, so i run out and in my panic i try to turn the propane off (now this is propper forklift propane so it's hard to turn it off quick, my dad pulls the wire and it shuts down and stalls (no fuel) well i think this might count as hcci, but have no clue how much of that was it consuming it's own oil (as i said it didn't go that high and runaway is usually mad high) one factor that may have saved everything is that my engine has automatic fueling based on a digital throttle governor and it must have cut the fuel when i let off the pedal to an idle, because that and ignition off changed nothing, next step is change the filter and add a one inch ball valve, also yes there was knock, the same kind when you add too much propane to a diesel at idle, next i need to get it running again because i'm worried i might have blown something, i'll update you if i get enough of a boost
Diesel hasn't been done because this is an engine/bike channel. I will get around to diesel, but the bikes come first and no bikes are diesel - well not in large numbers or commercially availible
there was once a time when i wished i could get a diesel bike, now acquiring vegetable oil for fuel is so hard to get the quantities needed that it's not worth it, anyway turns out my engine cranks, but not too fast, was like that before but once i added the vehicle i was boosting from just then it fired up before the propane, but on it's own it would not do a thing to help, yet two boost without it and it would not start, confusing, but i will try a better set of batteries and hope for the best
Pretty much why production racers removed the oil pumps on their race converted 2 stroke road bikes and went over to premix..... they could use engine braking without risk. The oil pump also adds a 2% drag onto the engine as a load factor. 2 stroke oil pumps are something that can't be trusted.
I've been using engine braking on 2 stroke bikes for 38 years and never seized one yet.
This probably makes me the most qualified by actual real life experience to kill this BS myth (perpetuated by 2 stroke noobs) that you can't engine brake with any 2 stroke.
You can only use engine braking on a 2 stroke that is (A) running premix and (B) is not running a ratio below 33:1. If one is running a weak 50:1 or leaner ratio then the motor is already on the edge of seizing so you're asking for a feck up.
OK a few thing wrong here in this video.
You omitted the fact that on steel / iron cylinder liners there is a coating of burnt oil lacquer glazing (which has to be "broken" with "Wet 'n' Dry" sand paper when fitting new rings to a piston without a rebore). This protects the cylinder and is part of the reason why running in a rebore on a 2 stroke takes so long, compared to a 4 stroke, as this lacquer coating has to be built up once the honing marks are polished out.
2 stroke oil is SAE 30 and the dilutant used is either kerosene or white spirit, depending on brand. It also adds to the energy content of the combustion process and changing the premix ratio will effect the vapourisation and power developed in a stroke.
This is why running car engine oil instead of 2 stroke makes it run shite and kills the journal bearings (the large ones that hold the crank up for the non-technical). I've had to repair 2 stroke engines run on 10W40 motor oil.
The dilutant used in 2 stroke oil plays a crucial part in controlling the vapourisation point of the fuel mixture entering the cylinder and being compressed. This is why one brand of 2 stroke oil will seem to make a bike go better than another brand. For drag racing I used Golden Film, back in the 1980's, which would ignite if a flame was held over it. Sadly not found in bike shops nowadays. God knows what was in it but 2 strokes ran better on the stuff.
Engineers have run tests, that can be found online, that have proven that 2 stroke motors give more power when run at higher premix ratios, not just because of the reduced friction, but also because of improved combustion. This is contrary to popular 2 stroke mythology however and also doesn't go down well with the tree hugging Eco Nazis.
Leaner premix ratios cause the engine to heat up more and be liable to seizing.
The amount of engine braking effect depends on the compression ratio of the bike. Bikes such as Jawa, CZ, MZ, etc. with 10:1+ compression ratios have a lot of engine braking effect.
Bikes like the Kawasaki KH250 (5:1), Suzuki X7 (6:1), etc. aren't going to have such an effective engine braking effect, or nearer to feck all so not really worth using it.
I have a mc from 1950 wich requires an oil mixture of 1:16
smoke bomb?
My 1981 250R ATC is 20:1, most people think I’m wrong until I show them the Honda shop manual
There's a study that shows that around 16:1 is the mix ratio that produces best power in a two-stroke.
You probably have to be riding it hard to keep your plugs clean at that ratio but if you care enough about the few percentage points of power it gives you you're probably racing anyway.
I’ve always assumed it’s prudent to run slightly richer, especially at higher rpm than lean... More oil means you run lean, it will run hotter and is likely to cause engine problems...
Does the fact that the engine when rolled off at higher rpm isn’t firing, does this not somewhat negate the heat issue.... Surely temps are dropping dramatically whilst coasting...
I’ve never had an issue with my first bike a KMX, it got absolutely hammered. I always used Castrol TTS and favoured it running slightly rich... I also ran it around 20bhp, knowing those that over tuned the engine got considerably more failures...
"Does the fact that the engine when rolled off at higher rpm isn’t firing, does this not somewhat negate the heat issue.... Surely temps are dropping dramatically whilst coasting... "
- the engine is firing.
The Workshop my ignorance is without bounds, truly! I assumed the rolling of the throttle, meant the engine is essentially just rolling, not firing... Does this mean the engine is getting fuel and oil, therefore getting enough oil to cool itself..?
I love 2 strokes, If you hadn’t noticed..!
Anyhoo, you do have my respect.. Keep up saying what you think, which is massively better than saying what others want to hear..!
👍
"I assumed the rolling of the throttle, meant the engine is essentially just rolling, not firing... "
The newer models (depending on what bike and usually the high end race type bikes 2016+ kinda thing) do have throttle cut - this is where the ECU cuts fuel when you shut off the throttl. Some even require the shut thorttle and brake signal when you apply the brakes.
For carb bike this isn't the case and for most dirt bikes its also not the case.
The ignition fires unless told not to. And that requires an ignition control. As for throttle shut off that usually requires the injectors to stop firing instead of the ignition.
"Does this mean the engine is getting fuel and oil, therefore getting enough oil to cool itself..?"
The issue is shut the throttle from WOT to closed. The RPM is still high but the fuel and oil have been massively cut to idle levels. The piston and bearings keep moving, without this additional supply of oil. This is why engines pop on decel.
Some engines that have oil mixer:
1. Rotax 122-123 used in HM CRM 125, Aprilia RS 125, Aprilia SX 125, Aprilia MX 125, Aprilia RX 125.
2. Husqvarna SM 125 2t
3. Cagiva Mito (proprietary Cagiva engine)
4. 50cc shifter motorbikes (HM CRE 50, HM DERAPAGE 50 and most Minarelli AM6 powered bikes)
5. GasGas Halley 125 2t
Are they rpm dependent?
The Workshop The older style ones are solely RPM dependent and are mechanical. They either inject oil in the carb that mixes in the float chamber or directly into the venturis after the guillotine. When they introduced the Euro 3 emissions they added an electronic sensor and an electric motor with an extra function in the ECU so that it can calculate exact oil values to meet the emissions standard. In Italy through the 2t 125 tuning community they are generally frowned upon (the electronic ones) because they are known for failing and causing serious damage to the engine. No oil = bad times
could you hold the throttle open but switch off your ignition so you still have oil and fuel going through the engine?
Why would want to do that?
Probably for lubrication and cooling by the fuel while engine braking.
can you explain how works oil in 4t? why 4t have better emissions?
thanks for vid btw,
Yes I can - matt
tdkpepsimus
you're not burning the oil in 4T or you shouldn't be.
in a 4t the oil lives in the crank case, and stays there
Nonsense, that would entirely depend on the 4T. Ford RS200s (for example) use loads of oil.
On a different note Iv smoked all my weed 😭😭😭😭
Can I engine brake on a 2 stroke if I’m running 32:1
It doesn’t matter what your fuel / oil ratio is. If you aren’t pulling on the throttle your engine isn’t getting the oil it needs. Just pull in the clutch and use the brakes if you don’t want your engine to go BANG.
Try rubbing two pieces of metal together thousands of times per minute without lubrication. That is what is happens to your engine when you engine brake.
Wow. Did you actually watch the video?
Saab had freewheel on there twostroke cars so you could not engine brake them when the freewheel was engaged.
It was like back in the 50's-60's???
And now latest cars are going back to Saabs 60 years old ideas.
They really where ahead of us.
Saab
I had this idea too, but wouldn’t it cause a violent reengagement when you apply the power again, since the engine speed drops well below the wheel speed? Because the engine will have to spin back up under no load then slam into engagement at the right rpm? Or am I wrong?
This video gave me an idea. Say, you have a scooter or 2 stroke bike that is out of fuel but you have gasoline and say 4 stroke oil and Bar and Chain oil but no premix or 2 stroke oil. Are you able to use the other oil types in an emergency situation or should you just call a taxi or uber to go get more 2 stroke oil?
use what ya got on hand. a few folks have run them on diesel-gas mix. eed to get it right though
mazman117 I doubt it as 2 stroke oil is designed to be fairly clean burning, if you burnt 4 stroke oil in it, it would get carbon build up everywhere and probably run like shit and eventually probably not run at all cos it could foul the plug.
i mean if thats all you have but eventually you would foul a plug and engine would run like shit
The dude on the dyno was a 4T guy... He had no focking clue what he was doing. Or he hated the screaming sound of the 2T and simply wanted it to end.
Oh I asked my boss about an older Triumph Tiger engine that was abandoned at the storage... I thought it would be an great project engine for you since he just wanted to get rid of it. He brought it last year to the junkyard ;( It was a 750 I think but in good condition. Damn that was a fee engine to play with... gone!
Most 2-strokes have fuckall for engine braking...my yamaha dt-100 for example... so why use it?.Saw the dyno guy explode his.....Very infomative vid..Thanks...
The suzuki rgv has oil injector in each cylinder and the pump runs off the gearbox. Probably still possible to heat seized just less likely.
hey man! my bike (drz) has been burning and lossing oil for some time even after a new piston and rings until i noticed it only burned and lost oil when i wheelie. Can you make a video about how can a 4stroke engine burn or lose oil in some conditions?
cheers
ATTL - matt
If you double the ratio of oil to gasoline in a carbureted two stroke, would the increased viscosity be enough to substantially limit the gas/oil mix being fed into your engine causing it to run lean?
Excellent videos... Gotta ask, is it always raining in the background?
Alexander Filatov guessing hes from the UK then yeah 90% of the time its rainin 😂
Good video Matt sorry to say kid the horse has hard it bolted
Matt, I did catch you mention " Thought Experiment" and the first thing to pop in my mind right after you mentioned it was Einstein, I do use the thought experiment, when I am diagnosing. I did start to watch " Do it with Dan" after you did the rant video on him, so technically you advertised for Dan, he's young & cocky, too cocky for my taste, once in our lifetime we've all been young & cocky.
Dan might of gotten the idea from a Buell service manual, on a Buell you have to use it, the frame splits in two, in order to do major engine work you have to split the frame...
Another two cent's worth...
Good job! 👍👌
So for engine breaking just tap your kill switch wile holding the throttle open to cool and lubercate
HOT SHOT 1500 some how I don't think that's a great idea
is this true for the older Vespas IE the px200 ?
I don't know, check
If its a px200 auto lube the drive gear for the oil pump runs off the crankshaft. Then the oil pump feeds the oil in to the carb and the amount of oil is controlled by the throttle cable. I can't remember if the oil is fed above the slider or under. Its not the best design the oil runs under the carb box in between a paper gasket.
thanks Matt
Wouldn’t this be like a lock up because of a lean pilot circuit? Full throttle to no throttle, goes onto pilot circuit and then since it’s lean you lock it up
I don't agree I race 2-stroke Flat Track Motorcycles for years and never had a breaking seizure I would however suggest a 32 to 1 mixture
but a question though why does it splutter when the power valve opens for the first time and only the first time it opens after being in the shed all night i get it out start it rev it a little get it warm get it out set off ride round a little but when i open it up it splutters abit when its on the pipe once its finished spluttering and its on the power its fine after that its like an old smoker in the morning just needs to clear its chest before it can rip about
skinz 88 because it's cold
yes that was my first thought ive been leaving it longer and longer each time before i get it out to warm up and ive started giving it a propper throttle blip before getting any speed out of it i wouldnt tear ass it on a totally cold engine its always warm but probably not hot enough just something you gotta deal with i guess... and mine isnt premix so no throttle no oil i gotta sit with it while its idling and give it a rev every now and then
Can you explain why all 2 stroke engine/vehicle manufacturers don't note this in their operators/owner's manuals? I've owned plenty of 2 strokes including road bikes, race bikes and Mugen tuned race bikes, and I've never seen this in a manual. Of course very few people do engine brake in a 2-stoke anyway because engine braking is so very weak (unlike a high compression 4 stroke).
Fucking Jesus man, let me sleep!
wow. 2 mins of actual content and the rest was blahblah. you could've gotten to the point in short manner. 1 sentence = at WOT and 9000rpm, you close the throttle while the engine still revs so high, starving it of the already tiny bit of oil in the fuel with a hot metal piston almost dry and still revving, it has to heat up tremendously.
fantastic video!
hey matt, watching this has kind of scared me that im going to kill my new piston, is there a chance you could do a video explaining the real time effects of how engine braking damages an engine ?
just be mindful that closing the throttle at high rpm is not a good idea, I don't know what you don't understand about that. You say real effect - a heat seize is a real effect
The Workshop i was more asking how it effects the life span of the components
Good question, heat seizes are all about thermal expansion. If your motor is about to seize but doesn't then it will return to it nominal dimention on cool down. This thermal cycling is normal for the engine. It only becomes a problem when it seizes. However, the higher temperatures that the ring(s) will see if done quite offen may cause the ring(s) to warp over time. But you'll probably replace them before that becomes an issue.
The Workshop, ahh that makes some more sence now, cheers for that mate !
Keep the idle a little high and it wouldn't shut down the fuel completely
Engine braking does no harm whatsoever. I'm not standing in front of a whiteboard, so you can take that with a grain of salt, but I've been riding two strokes on and off road for 23 years. I engine brake premix engines and oil injected engines. I do it down hills, I do it from high speed while downshifting through multiple gears. Oil migration is negligible when the throttle is closed. Whatever oil is in there stays in there. My KDX200 I used to ride to work would actually load up while coasting down, as of course the pilot jet is still feeding premix and there is close to zero airflow to carry any up and out of the transfer ports.
For those that have seized engines, whatever your problem was, coasting wasn't it. Improper jetting, timing, compression, fuel quality, insufficient premix ratio, who knows. Run 32:1, learn how to jet and you will have a vastly better two stroke experience. Also disregard anybody that tells you not to engine brake a two stroke. They don't have a clue.
Coasting?
By load up you mean it was accumulating oil? So when you got back on the throttle it blew out more smoke? And by coasting I assume you mean engine breaking and not pulling in the clutch
Very good explanation
I had an rxs for 2 years and rode the shit out of it only changed piston once basicly cuz i felt like it. Yet my mates had various other 2strokes and were blowing them more often than i was putting fuel in lol
SUM PEOPLE ARE A BIT MISINFORMED!
This makes sense to this Guy, who's just breaking into 2T, after 4 Decades of working, building and tuning Four Stroke Engines. MY application is bloody irrelevant to you, but me and me Mates are into 1/5 Scale Gas RC Racing.
ENTIRELY different, but very similar in concept! Being a quite experienced 4T Guy, I had never ONCE thought about the LACK of lubrication on deceleration - even WORSE doing Engine Braking.....
This Video just gave us QUITE an edge, requiring NOTHING but a change in Throttle Technique!!! Now, unlike Bikes, we can't disengage our Engines from the Drivetrain (UNLESS we want to fuk around with One-Way Bearings).
I had already known about the fuel/oil starvation when not on the Throttle.... I had NO fuking idea it was THAT Bad!! 😵😱
I JUST had a thought.... Since 2T Engines from some Manufacturers do already come with separate Oil Injection, and have an Engine Management System - WHY NOT do some Reprogramming to the ECU, so that when it senses a sharp Throttle closure, but NOT a sharp drop in RPM.... The ECU could then set a parameter to *Feed Oil Only* in an Engine Braking situation - WITHOUT Fuel???
........ Just my overactive, old Brain, tossing an idea out. 😉
You impress me as a young Man with a fairly vast understanding of Engineering.... Would some crazy idea like that actually WORK??
Can engine braking by having full throttle but holding kill switch at the same time damage the engine? By full throttle is engine lubed, but it won't ignite, because of kill switch. Is it dangerous?
I don't think there's much combustion going on with the throttle closed and the engine being driven by the wheels at any sort of RPM.
If you listen to a two-stroke under these conditions you only hear it fire once every second or two. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-stroking?wprov=sfla1
Very insightful video, really great information presented in an easy to understand way. I'll be the first to say that I was kinda skeptical when I heard about engine braking killing two strokes, as it never happened to me, but when you think about it it really makes a lot of sense. And I guess I was doing something right because almost instinctively I've been pulling in my clutch and blipping the throttle when braking, so I guess I'm lucky in that I didn't just straight engine brake haha. But just one more thing to take into account when riding, and no doubt knowing how it works I'll get more life out of my bike. Very appreciated and great video!
No worries dude and thanks for the comment - matt
Good info . Thanks bro.