can confirm, gateway units are very weak because of warp gate, if they just nerf warp gate and increase strength of gate way units protoss will no longer have to rush early game. but this is new blizzard, they cant balance a single thing, all old devs left so new team didint earn this mantle and it shows
Honestly, sc2 protoss is nothing like broodwar protoss. When I play sc2, protoss just doesn't have the same tankiness/elite feel to them like in broodwar
the most important part is that the energy overcharge has a SIXTY (yes, 60) SECONDS GLOBAL COOLDOWN, which is conveniently omitted from the patch notes 😂
Isn't that kinda stupid? Im not really into starcraft but Energy regenerates at fixed speed across all races with 1 energy in a second? That means if u use Energy overcharge ON COOLDOWN you wont be able to utilize your energy at full rate? Since you will regenerate more than u can spend.
@@Nagaimba It is stupid . But the way you framed is a bit off. A better way to put it, is to say that this change essentially makes it so 1 of your units has 100 % energy recharge as long as it is bound by global CD . If it was not bound by global CD , then it would be the equivalent of having 1 such spellcaster per Nexus built.
@@shadowpriest2574 _"Yeah, IDK what they were thinking with that . Make it not global and maybe 30 sec cd and its way better"_ If you do that and you put 2-3 batteries next to each other, you get next to infinite recharge. One battery charges second battery, second battery charges third, third one charges first, then all 3 heal the units, rinse and repeat.
We want to nerf Zerg's and Protoss' ability to survive the early game, while insuring that Terran does and giving them increase efficiency so they can consistently turtle all the way to a win.
Zerg got spines and spores buffed too. Obviously the "nerf turtle playstyles" was just about screwing over Protoss who got their key defensive ability outright removed. Not even nerfed... overcharge is just outright gone.
*This protoss unit is a bit weak so to make it stronger, we have to nerf a bunch of other stuff.* *This Zerg unit is a bit strong, so to nerf it we will make everything else much stronger.* The imbalance council are cooking nothing but crystal meth
"We want less defensive play" >nerfs battery, nerfs immortals, because "protoss had a chance to win early, which we somehow now hate". >buffs ALL terran static defense. >nerfs bunker rushes, "because apparently we now want the game to be less active early on". >buffs spores, buffs expanding for zerg, buffs all zerg static defense. Edit: I forgot the "We want more aggressive playstyles, so we buffed mech"
1. maybe protoss player are weaker i notice that is many terran player and especial zerg player who can be alsoe top 10 toss player XD but i see non toss player who can be top 10 terran/zerg
Same, I far prefer BW to SC2, but I'm still a bit invested in SC2 patches because I watch quite a lot of pro SC2 games. Many of my issues with SC2 are deep mistakes that the devs made from day 1, and it's unlikely they'd ever fix them, but I would still like to see them improve what they can improve. The goals they described in this patch were decent.
I think I went back to BW about 2 months after SC2 came out. Played about 10 minutes of HotS, and never even bothered with the 3rd release. I shudder to think how bad the game has gotten now that AV/Blizz has mostly abandoned it.
Make it even immune to all spells. It makes no sense a single viper, ghost, templar etc. can fuck up a capital ship the size of multiple carriers (per lore).
They could make this happen, they could also buff damage, but then you need to increase supply drastically. Where we are talking to 10-15 supply. The problem with making the mothership good, is that it will just become the equilivant of brood war carrier. Must get every game and you win.
EMP should only remove protoss shield temporarily. Ghost can one-click remove whole protoss army shields and everyones fine with that? fucking cmon man
Doesn't turrets and sensor towers being salvageable just make Terran want to camp even more? You can basically camp till the map mines out then sell it all to build more army while your opponent cant.
Move EMP to the raven I say, make it the exact same mechanic as anti-armour missile, unlocked with ghost academy, same radius and damage as EMP but with a flight time. That or here is a fun idea, put an upgrade on the ghost academy that upgrades reaper grenades to include a 50 damage EMP (50 shield 50 energy), ghost loses EMP. Late game reaper flanks just for EMP divebombs. Hell make it work on unit death so that reapers become EMP banelings lol.
@@Starky_3D Strictly speaking I don't mind that EMP is on the Ghost. If I were proposing changes I would suggest making it so a single EMP always removes a flat 50% of Protoss shield regardless of a unit's shield size. Force Terran to use multiple spells for the same impact. At the same time, some serious adjustments to the Ghost's durability and damage output wouldn't go amiss. A spellcaster that cloaks shouldn't also have high attack and be survivable when caught out.
The patch grade is: 9/10 for creativity, 1/10 for actual balance. It get's a school grade F, "you tried, and the picture you drew at a side looks nice and all but we're doing math here and 2+2 is not 5"
The game is out over 10 years. It's OK to try out some things and be a tiny bit creative. This makes it less boring than calculating the same formular over and over.
The trolliest thing ever is them showing gameplay footage of a Ravager biling a Sentry instead of the forcefield blocking the entire army from going up the ramp. Balance council really considers us idiots. And they're right.
@@zergu-yf3gd nice try zerg player, yeah the unit that was so "unused" that there are tons of videos and tournaments where both zerg players just make the game last for eternity? clearly "unused"
Zerg not having hydras (aka anti-air) at tier 1.5 causes so many problems in SC2. Their early anti-air options are gross. I'm glad Blizzard is trying to reduce Zerg's reliance on mass queens for early defense, but shifting all that power into static defense sounds bad.
@@lifenote1943Would make roaches kinda irrelevant since you can just tech into lurkers quicker rather than having to go with an awkward ravager timing.
@@reishiki8682 yeah get roaches the fuck out of here too, stupid fucking unit, it's literally a replacement for the old hydra, but because they dont shoot up they needed to add the queen. Either way roaches are stupid, I never watch a game and say "oh wow Dark made a ton of roaches and A moved, that was so much fun to watch and it took a great level of skill". People talk about toss being an A move race LETS TALK ABOUT ZERG IN SC2.
Love how the patch notes promise to make hydras more playable but in reality, blanket 8% move nerf to hyrdas, *BUT* if you get to hive tech, and then research a thing, THEN you can dash for 0.7 seconds...
Love how they don't want turtling so they buff the spore and spine crawler, turret, bunker, sensor tower, liberator, make hatcheries cheaper which means more creep and bases to turtle in, etc. Was the anti-turtling thing sarcasm?
It only applied to Protoss. Its insane how much better the Protoss players have to be just to make a top 16 in a tournament compared to the two easy races
Always amazes me how they can repeatedly buff Zerg and Terran, but they can't ever do a straight-up buff for Protoss. Every increase comes with a drawback. It's so clear they despise Protoss.
It's because Protoss isn't underpowered. Protoss is fundamentally too strong for how little effort it requires to play it. Of course when you're at 7k mmr, playing with clem and trying to win tournaments, you're going to struggle. But at every single level below literal professionals, protoss is overpowered.
@@angelsantana6995 I think the Dash is going to add more than the speed redux removes. Think about being able to completely dodge Disruptor Novas now with Hydra dash. Plus Ravagers no longer get oneshot by them. Also, with the Microbial Shroud buffs, Shrouded Hydras can dash to position under Liberators or other air siege units and pop them while being masked from damage. Liberators now siege up closer to their liberation zones due to the range decrease, so anti-air can reach sieged Libs a tiny bit easier (although there's always a Terran buff to counteract any nerf and so their zones are way bigger...). The Queen thing is complex, don't really know how that will shake out now, but I suspect Spores will shreck Oracles with the damage buff. I didn't do the math but I would bet there are now fewer shots to kill. Just food for thought on those points o7
Well this is why it is a « PTR » patch that needs to test stuff of the PTR 😅 People go crazy on these while we don’t even know how much of the changes will actually be left after being tested out on the PTR
have you seen their patch notes in general? a whole lot of back and forth buffs/nerfs. clearly devs have no idea what they are doing, zero play testing and they had TEN years to make sc2
I dont like disrupter but if your gonna have it, dont make it worthless it cant even one shot marauders so they can just heal up and make your very few disrupter hits to do basically nothing. Making protoss even more likely to get steamrolled by marines and marauders.
starcraft 2 is badly balanced in general, static defenses are way too weak, all three factions get access to uber armored high hp units just boil down early game to whoever loses first battle loses whole game. theres no comeback mechanics like broodwar
@@eoconnor3196 It's literally the reason why i don't play the game anymore. That and rapid fire shit. I don't want to play mass ghost army because terrans literally don't have any options vs lurkers
I do not know how they can claim this balance patch was aiming at reducing turtle playstyle while buffing Terran's turtle strats that hard. Those Mothership buffs are meaningless when it can still get yanked and ganked with ease.
Well blue flame at least allows for more strats mid game to do games so Terran has the option to not go to late game. Right now the window for a Terran to kill a Zerg mid games is basically nonexistent.
I just can't fathom why they didn't do anything to the Ghost. Give it a light tag, or make it cost more supply, or make EMP/snipe cost more energy. Mass ghost as part of Terran composition is basically uncounterable.
its called feed back and banelings. protoss still overpowered storm spam instant warp in entire army and zerg still strongest because of op brood lord infestor swarm hosts
@@TheStargov you sir are correct, last time i played was during wings of liberty stopped playing after seeing how much they ruined my beloved franchise
I think the Terran Council caves to the idea that it's too important of a unit in late game for terran, and they just won't touch it regardless of how obvious it is that it needs a nerf.
Protoss player here, been playing since SC1... there were breaks in between, but I am still Grandmaster toss as of this week. Been thinking about quitting for a while now, (years even), Toss gets no love, Terran super strong, and Zerg just got buff to madness... I think this does it. I finally have enough reason to quit the game that Blizzard doesn't care about anymore. And with me quitting OW since 2023 cancelling of PvE... I am now finally going to completely quitting blizzard games. ... funny thing is, I am not even feeling depressed, I feel .... free. maybe I can finally spend more times with kids and family... who am I kidding, looks like it going to be Helldivers2 here on.
@@azhp42069 Thanks, I really been thinking for years now... I couldn't cause you know, been here for so long... but this patch, the way they treat toss, something snapped in my head, and I am now like, "should have done this years ago..."
another reason broodwar is better than sc2, and i mean original starcraft not the cash grab remaster that ruined sc1 with those mirror maps and wierd upward ramps and bad maps.
I just hope that they change the name for the Hydralisk ability. "Dash" is probably what we'll end up calling it, but it doesn't evoke the same feeling as the other upgrades/abilities. Call it "Myofibrillic Burst" or something. I'm sure they could come up with something better.
Of all the objections to the patch, this is the DUMBEST and just outs you as a gold player. Terran already have repair. How many situations do you honestly encounter where attacking units can overwhelm 3 repairing SCVs, but not 500 damage? It's going to be significant in maybe 0.001% of games.
@@snealbli I tend to agree. 10 years ago this change could have been useful, but now? Rather pointless. When LotV released I stopped playing SC2 altogether and made a mod instead, implementing a lot of cool ideas others have posted over the years in the forums. Well, at the ones I found to be cool. The depot calldown increased hp to 600 as well as giving it a medic like heal ability, so it's not just useful against baneling bust, but also things like proxy Voids or Tempest.
I like how Protoss gets a worthless gimmicky ability in exchange for completely gutting their defense but zerg gets 15 fucking buffs to compensate for a small Queen nerf. Clearly they needed it after winning almost every major tournament for the last several years.
I love how they were so afraid of what a Queen cost increase would do that they compensated Zerg in 3 other ways, including making their core economic structure cheaper. But in the same patch decided, "Hey Protoss doesn't REALLY need shield overcharge, right?"
it lowkey could be a buff. all base structures are -100 cos of the supply they give so you're looking at 225 effective cost for a hatch, only 50 more than a queen. oh and depending how much value you place on the 2 supply that queen eats that could make up the difference. instead of creep tumours just make hatcheries in a line towards your opponent lmao
@@jesusbarrera6916 i didn't forget that dude your maths sucks. 275+50 = 325. 325-100 = 225 which is the effective cost of the hatchery also by base structures i meant cc, nexus, hatchery, yknow, base structures
Biggest points of confusion. 1) want to nerf turtling, but I think improved the turtling of Terran which is by far the biggest offender. 2) I think they actually kind of nerfed several early game all ins/pressures against Terran with new supply depot drop and maybe even vs Zerg with stronger static defense? (Only the super early stuff to be fair) 3) how are we nerfing the immortal when that is what finally let us get out of sky toss every game meta that everyone hates including Protoss. Finally, and most importantly after literally years of struggling at the highest level Protoss gets yet another overall nerf vs an overall buff of terran and the ghost remains untouched….
@@d0k0night from zerg pov it is super broken to make lings obsolete in the early game and forever. roach is not a viable unit against terran and if you can force us to make them you have already won.
nah they gave all the buffs to zerg, broolord super op, infestor best caster and lets not forget swarm host meta. terran still weakest despite op protoss getting nerfed. protoss still more a move than terran
I think it can be a buff. Use it on a Nexus for 2 extra Chrono boasts. But I don't know enough about protoss build order so it prob won't do much. I wish it cost 0 energy so you get 4 extra!
@@izanagi3521 you cant use it on your nexus.... I tested it on ptr today In general protoss early game is really weak right now and so far for PvZ atleast i havent really found a good way to use the energy ability. I have seen some pros use it on the first oracle but then you have to skip one chrono on workers or not chrono your second oracle and so far I found the second oracle to be still better to have for harassment since the new damage output of spore crawlers makes it really hard to stay in eco lines for long time so having 2 oracles to do the hit and run to one shot drones still seems way better
@@scyrp i loved the blackhole, i absolutely adored the ever living shit out of it, because of all the ways you could get creative with it, but in all fairness if they really wanted to bring back the motherships full power, you would need both the cloaking and the blackhole, with the 400/400/8 stats. because that's how it was.
@@ScaredHamshee isn't it stupid how that game defined so much going forward for protoss? its kinda funny to think about really that, every since they nerfed the mothership the first time, every single patch from there on until today is like 75% - 80% nerfs to buffs overall. whereas terran and zerg have always been the opposite overall, it's almost like the guys in charge are pure zerg/terran players, at least back in the day Dustin always showed up to take the beating, apologize and back paddle the most nerfs.
@@soldier22881 "Oh, no! He has 20 ghosts! I know! I'll use feedback!" 🤓👆 *high templars get EMP'd and eviscerated by Terran army before a single feedback goes off* "Oh no! What happened!? I had the perfect plan!" 😫
@@thefalseheroBS... ZERG got a huge nerf to the QUEEN and static defense has never been a turtle mechanic to ZERG, it was used more offensively than defensively
@@jesusbarrera6916 I agree, but Protoss got shafted so hard that I really wanted to highlight them by singling them out. And I do think that under top level play, zerg static D is still used as a camping tool, so my comment isn't completely wrong.
and even beyond the drone, queens dont even take larvas. They are literally on their own personal production queue while all other troops AND workers need larvas
@@JohnSmith-zb8lz that would be even worse. Zerg REALLY need that early gas for zergling speed, then to tier up and/or for roaches. a 50 gas cost would kill the queen completely as a combat unit, except zerg NEED queens for combat in the early game as they dont have any other mobile anti-air until T2 (and thats before considering at least one per hatch is so mandatory it might as well be an extra cost of hatcheries, plus you also likely want at least an extra one for creep tumors)... such a change would flat out kill the zerg completely in competitive play. because if your early game is ass, you wont live to see the mid or late game. Sad thing is, the zerg flat out dont function without queens, and restricting their access makes the entire race flat out worse.
Yea but Zergs build workers the fastest. Every CC or Nexus can only build 1 worker at a time, Zerg can build 3 at a time and with injects its even more. Its way way faster than chrono boosting probes. This is why you need drones to make buildings, if not Zerg would be broken making workers at more than 3x the speed of other race. Not to mention spores cost less than turrets and cannons. Also, it's not a straight nerf for the Queen cost change. You can now build hatch for 25 minerals less, meaning you can build the natural hatch earlier and have the first queen earlier. That 25 mineral difference probably amounts to 2-3 seconds. This will destroy reaper openings. You also get to inject or spawn creep 2-3 seconds faster. Yes the 2nd queen onwards will start to cost more minerals. Probably around the 3min to 5mins mark. However after that, mineral is generally not a problem as Zerg starts to build up a bank. So the 2-3min mark Zerg actually got buffed and the 3-5min mark it got nerfed a bit. After that the impact is less pronounced. If you make 10 queens it's only 250 more minerals. Make 20 and it's only 500 minerals extra cost. It's not going to matter much from mid to late game onwards, especially some of the cost is going to be offset by hatcheries you make. This is not a big deal at all, Zergs players will probably benefit from the early 1st Queen in exchange for probably 1 less drone during the 3-5 min mark. People also forget that the new Spore changes makes it stronger against Oracle and Liberators harass. The Queens are still in a very strong spot.
Keeping a scorecard of buff numbers isn't that effective, its more about the impact of said buffs. When you look at what the buffs will do, Terran definitely comes out on top, wider lib range and faster transform is going to be a big deal. Full healing a supply depot with 100+ hp is gonna be a big deal too early game. The most absurd thing is that in this patch meant to help protoss, one of the biggest banes of protoss and zerg went completely untouched. The ghost, that one unit that does everything and then some.
@@soldier22881 Yep, but the ghost does not need to hit the templar, it needs to hit the army and erase their shields, and no one puts the templar in front cause they they will be shot up by the bio.
@@LordMephilis dont group your army into a ball then? i dont see the problem, have some observers to scout ahead of your army and dont ball up. are you using dropships to transport your high templars?
The queen nerf is pretty big though. Zero makes 8 queens by 5 min, that's 200 min, which is four drones. Zerrg usually hits 56 workers at around that time. Because of the compounding effects of income, I bet they only hit 50 on that build. In pvz that will make p eco better than z, which it already is until 4 min. This makes mass queen unviable as a build vs something like an adept all in. It also makes queen ravange walks unviable as an all in. Vs t it is similarly a huge nerf. Zero eco is the most precise, so small disruptions snowball wildly. I think it's a good change, but I think arty is overly dismissive of it
The top protoss players will always use the energy recharge on cooldown, so it's going to make oracle openings and storm timing attacks incredibly strong.
Nerfing the worst race and giving the other two buffs is definitely absurd. That being said, many of the units in this game are badly designed so these minute changes aren't going to get anywhere near fixing the game.
This patch is so dumb. With every new patch i dislike playing more and more. The more patches, the more frustrating the game gets. I think to properly enjoy sc2, we all need to switch to Terran 🎉
i stopped playing after wings of liberty, i saw just how bad they made starcraft 2, it did not feel like starcraft, and the patch notes dear god ive never seen a team that has no idea what to do, 10 years in development and zero play testing and it shows. All their budget time went into graphics and seeing how much they could ruin the lore/story of starcraft so they could sell the game to esports.
I agree to everything you have said. I want to add some more. Greater Picture (Variety) If we take a step back and look at Starcraft 2 and ask what makes a good RTS, we come across much larger and more fundamental issues that would need to be addressed. I believe the variety is one of the biggest factors. This is why SC2 Co-op commanders and fun maps are more successful than the ranked mode. Even in Warcraft 3, fun maps were much more popular than ranked modes. In fact, some games like Dota and League of Legends have emerged from these maps and have overtaken RTS games in terms of player and viewer numbers. Maps One of the biggest and most fundamental problem is the maps. All Starcraft 2 maps are structurally the same type. There is only one map type. In contrast, Age of Empires has dozens of map types. To name a few: Arabia, Island, Black Forest, Arena, Nomad, Rivers, Gold Rush. All these maps require completely different strategies. In Starcraft 2, that's not the case. You can play any strategy on every map. There are maybe a few rare exceptions with very minor differences. The fact that SC2 has only one map type compared to dozens in Age of Empires shows that SC2 offers significantly less variety in this regard. (That's a problem) There’s a reason for this: if SC2 had open maps like Arabia in Age of Empires 2, the game would be completely unbalanced. It’s essential to block narrow choke points with buildings and units because otherwise, it would lead to an automatic loss in most cases. This in itself is a problem. Designing SC2 from the ground up for more open maps would be the better approach to balancing the game, and as a positive side effect, this would allow for a greater variety of map types. If the balance works on completely open maps, then one can consider other, more complex map types, because all maps have open spaces where bases and armies meet and fight. The balance must work there. Open maps reveal the real balance problems with more clarity. Scouting In SC2, you only have to scout enemy buildings and units. In Age of Empires, you also have to scout resources, the exact position of your opponent, paths to the enemy, choke points, potential expansion spots, etc. This means there’s more variety. It's often said that SC2 is harder, but that only applies to the mechanical aspect and not to the strategic one. Scouting an unknown map and using that information requires more strategic decisions. In SC2, you know everything in advance and have done it a thousand times before. It becomes more about execution and less about spontaneous decision-making. If SC2 had randomly generated and unknown maps like Age of Empires 2, players would have more opportunities to show how well they can adapt to different situations. This would give them more room to demonstrate their skill. The skill ceiling would increase, which ties back into variety-something all RTS players crave. The crave for variety is the reason why there are different maps, factions, units, abilities, game modes, etc. This is one of the reasons why MOBAs and SC2 Co-op Commanders have become more successful than ranked in SC2 or Warcraft 3. There are more, but that would require much more text. Solutions are often a combination of many changes. 2 second fights (/ massive massive damage / too low HP / and many more describe all the same problem) Another problem is the high damage or the low health of units, which makes it difficult for casual players to keep up with the mechanical challenges of certain units and easy-to-execute rush strategies. This is why very few casual players participate in 1v1 ranked games. You can have fun as a casual player in 1v1 ranked through executing a hard to defend rush faster than the opponent. This is fun that can be easily obtained, but on the other hand, it can also feel very frustrating, because there is no feel of a match with a story and chances for a comeback. Combacks are mostly seen by pro players, but these comebacks are hard to reach and therefore seldom in comparison to the number of matches. The tools for comebacks are missing and the strategic room SC2 offers is very limited (No walls, simplified economy, indestructable walls from the beginning of each map --> cliffs etc.) Not just the number of resources are important, but also the ways how to get them which can also open up new strategic decision. Team Games The sum of all these reasons is why 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 in Starcraft 2 are even less successful. Walls Cheap and fast buildable walls give players a tool to manipulate the map situation like no other tool can't. The reason why there are destructable rocks is that developers and players want to change the map situation. To open up new paths reach this. Walls that can be destroyed (not like cliffs) also open up this option, but it also makes it possible to close paths. So it will add even more variety and the situation on the map can change more often than ones, because destructable cliffs can't be build. Walls dramatically change the front lines, leading to more variety and diversity in a match. Players in SC and WC3 uses structures as a wall and that shows the need of the players to have walls. Every SC2 match feels like a bad version of Age of Empires arena map. Real problem The ongoing balance changes are only a drop in the ocean and don’t significantly change the fundamental situation. This is evident in the fact that masses of players haven’t returned to SC2, which is ultimately what everyone wants. In general, SC2 needs to consider how to increase variety. A more complex economy like in Age of Empires 2 would be a big step toward increasing variety. In the end, it would lead to more fun for everyone. But many SC2 players and developers are afraid that SC2 would lose its identity if it copied good things from other RTS games, even though it didn’t harm the SC2 Co-op Commander mode to copy player abilities from Age of Mythology and C&C Generals. So, it's more of a war of beliefs rather than a logical and less emotional discussion about how SC2 could be improved, which is ultimately why it doesn’t get significantly better. The people that think why SC2 should't change too much is the reason why SC2 will not improve much. This means that the return of Starcraft 2 is being hindered by those who love Starcraft 2 the most, due to a lack of knowledge about game design and RTS design. They prefer a perfect game for a small target audience instead of a less perfect game for the masses. This means that everyone who thinks what is written here is wrong must accept that Starcraft 2 is not going to get much better. For that, one must be more open to new things. And there are even more ideas from other games. The balance changes seem not to be aimed at improving anything, but simply to keep Starcraft 2 in the conversation. The typical misunderstanding is that I want SC2 to be Age 2. But that is not the case, because Age 2 has a lot of more differences like less different cultures, less good unit controls, less good recognizability of units and abilities, mostly no active abilities, less replay features etc. So there are many things that are not good in Age 2. And I would also really enjoy playing in a futuristic setting as a change. But Age 2 has in sum much more good things for the gameplay and that is what I love. I love not Age, I love the better rts mechanics, possibilties and variety. And these good things in a Starcraft game would create the best rts ever made like it would improve every other rts. So misunderstand me in the right way
I agree with everything you said. I played age of empires since it was on the MSN gaming zone and wc2/sc1/d2 on the original Battlenet. There was a time when RTS games and their expansions would adopt one another's better ideas. Things like queuing the training of multiple units and setting rally points for created units appeared around the same time as AOE's Rise of Rome in games like Red Alert, soon becoming an expected feature of an RTS. So did the ability to garrison units inside buildings who can fire out. AOE and Red Alert later added the Attack-Move command that worked so well for Starcraft and Warcraft. Still, a few features seem to be stubbornly untouched. Starcraft (and wc2) control groups seem tiny to players of other RTS who try to wrap their head around it being intended. An AOE or Civilization player will wonder why there is no "random map" mode that both players have to explore for the first time. And what's with the chokepoints? Imagine AOE with 1v1 Black Forest (and you both know each other's spawnpoint) as the only method of ranked play. I also agree about walls, low hp of units causing extremely short encounters, and how less wildcard factor and response leads to the player's speed of execution being all that matters. Put Arabia in the map pool and the turtles won't be able to hide behind their bunkers. Throw in Nomad mode and some wild hostile creatures and now we're talking! In Starcraft's universe it could be a 'crash on an unknown world' mode.
In AoE 2, the races are essentially the same, that's why you're able to have different maps, because you're basically always playing a mirror match. Everyone is running more or less the same units. In SC2 with different races, you'll naturally get situations where different races will thrive on different maps and it's just not going to be possible to balance every race on every map type. Hell just look how much damage a speedling run-by can cause to in Protoss vs Zerg and it's pretty obvious why it's a chokeless open map would be utter disaster. As for why SC2 has popularity issues, I don't think it's the lack of maps, but more so the raw speed of the game. If you don't play SC2 at a high level, it's extremely frustrating because it requires a minimum reaction time to play it at any sort of level. Otherwise it just ridiculously favors the attacker. If you don't notice widow mines, banes, etc. You're pretty much losing your worker line in an instant. Similarly, if a disruptor ball catches you off-guard, you can take massive damage before you're even aware there's a problem.
@@taragnor "In AoE 2, the races are essentially the same, that's why you're able to have different maps,....." Not true for Age 4. In Age 4 the civs are completely different and there are still procedural generated maps. So that can't be the reason. "....and it's pretty obvious why it's a chokeless open map would be utter disaster. " I know and that is the problem. Two things can be a problem at the same time. The maps are the reasons why the balance is like it is. So change maps and balance of the units, so more maps are possible. It is bad game design if maps have to be built in one special way so factions are still balanced. Even in SC:BW maps are more different. So good that you see the same problem, but your conclusion is wrong. Your conclusion is: "we have several problems so it has to stay in that way." Right conclusion would be "we have to change maps and the balance at the same time." "...but more so the raw speed of the game...." That is right. You have described one additional problem. The thing with the maps is another additional problem. But I agree that the speed of the game is the biggest problem. I wrote that in the us blizzard forums a few days after the release of Wings of Liberty. So I know for a long time. And at this time there were thousand of people who want to tell me everything is fine with SC2 and there is no problem with the speed. Crazy that so many people are wrong and me is right. And today in some other topics it is still the same. Why? Because most people haven't red one book about game design. Most people just play. However, very few have actually engaged with the topic. Most just parrot what some streamer once said, who also knows little about game design but believes they do because they play Starcraft for 12 hours a day. But playing Starcraft and understanding game design are two very different things, and not every Starcraft player is a good game designer. Even not every game designer is a good game designer. Me and others told the guys that develop Stormgate who worked at Blizzard before in the us forums many times SC2 is too fast. Did they change something? No. Do the same developers tell the people that SC2 is too fast now and that is the reason why in Stormgate units have more life? Yes, they do. So they tell us, what I have told them for about 15 years. They must be really smart.
I think you can't just count the "quantity" of buffs, but the quality of them. The zerg buffs seem to reduce the early game stall/stagger strats with mass queens, while offloading the defensive/offensive needs the queen provided for to structures aka sunk costs if not used unlike queens, and 25 mineral hatch reduction means faster expansion which is microseconds for 3rd base but takes away a little bit from early game prowess. I still think they need creep changes. The other races got considerable timing changes, that increased cost on queen added witht he blue flame change is going to be meaningful, same with liberator timings vs zerg.. I think there's a lot of potential
Naw man it's a pretty big nerf. Liberators will now be targettable and focus-fired by any anti-air unit. Just step forward, all focus fire and the liberator is dead. You lose one relatively low-cost unit, he loses an entire liberator.
Especially since most map makers were adding in anti-liberator features anyway. Yes, it's good that the stupid abusable stuff is gone, but all that really does is free up creativity. Liberators got stronger.
@@d0k0nightdid you even read? Libs get increased radius, which is also increases its range by 1.25. so while it loses the 2 range upgrade, it got 1.25 more range from the increase radius thus only losing 0.75 range in total. But what people don't realize is that libs now have 1.25 more range straight from the starport without the need for any upgrades. That is a massive buff!!! Not to mention the radius is in all directions, not just from the front. Units will have a harder time trying to flank libs too. On top of that, tempests also lost 1 range against air units. Compared to libs overall 0.75 range NERF Vs tempest 1 range NERF, tempests are now at a 0.25 range deficit Vs Libs compared to before.
I’ll be interested to see how an oracle showing up with 100 more energy on its initial rush might feel. I kinda think people could be underestimating how hard that could be to deal with
Literally only matters on low levels of player skill - issue at high level is never energy, it's damage from queens, spores, etc...The whole stated purpose of this patch is to buff protoss at higher levels, not lower levels.
and toss destroying ladder XD yep toss probably have some issue at top lev but i notice that maybe zerg/terran players are just better I see few zerg/terran who can play toss and still be top 10-20 toss XD but i see 0 toss who can be top 10-20 terran/zerg
Another patch, Ghosts still not nerfed and remain the most broken OP unit in the entire game. Also Protoss got shafted yet again, despite the patch trying to make it more viable. Amazing... Oh and @ArtosisTV shame on you for failing to distinguish between Serral and to a much lesser extent the other 3 Zerg Horsemen(Reynor, Rogue and Dark) and literally all other Zerg players including pros like Ragnarok(now Shin), Lambo, Elazer, etc, who actually won very few tournaments. Compare that to Terran and you have Maru as a massive outlier but than you have many more Terran players(TY, Cure, Byun, Gumiho, Bunny, HeroMarine, etc) who win tournaments on a pretty consistent basis. That is to say it's not Zerg as a race that's overpowered(not for a long time since the many, many, many, nerfs it suffered over the years) but rather the 4 Zerg Horsemen specifically and chiefly among them Serral. Take Serral out of the equation and suddenly Zerg didn't win nearly as many tournaments. Take Maru out of the equation and Terran still wins the majority of tournaments...
No one cares about balance on the lower levels. People are bad and skill difference is why people win effectively every game. Need to balance the top players so that it is actually the skill and not the imbalance that determines who wins. Protoss is by far the worst race and needs to be buffed a lot. I stopped watching because I was tired of seeing Protoss lose everything even when the Protoss player was playing better.
You are not correct. There are two things that need balancing. Skill ceiling and skill floor. While it is of most importance to balance the top level play, skill floor is also important. If you need a much lower skill to succeed against much more skilled opponents then it doesn't matter that the top players can still dismantle your strategy. If all you have to do is set up a cheap unit whereas enemy has to spend a lot of effort to deal with it then it is a big balance difference even at the high level. Even pros can mess up against a disruptor shot or get a group of units wiped by a widow mine. It happens when they couldn't focus enough on controlling units. Low effort strategies simply cannot be too good.
Protoss has never been a real race to me in probably 10 years. It feels more like a dlc joke race. Also how about we go back to starting with 6 workers so we actually have BUILDS?
When spectating the games they already jump to like 2:30 in to show the parts people should begin caring about. Adding how many more minutes into games that no one wants to see, maybe play but probably not?
@@kmurphy0620 just look at brood war. impactful early skirmishes with tiny amounts of units where micro is everything. amazing to watch and play. earlygame sc2 is boring because nothing impactful is happening.
Protoss got an ability to recharge 100 energy for 1 unit and has a cooldown of 1 minute for that ability. Don't forget terrans already have this same spell, but reversed and better. It kills 100 energy and 100 shields in an AREA without cooldown. Of course 1 is from a basic structure that you can have from the start of the game and the other is a high tech unit, but still, it is just dumb that we traded that battery overcharge for a cheap reversed emp with cooldown
This "balance council" proves that being a top rank player, does not mean they are smart and know how game mechanics work. It just means they have better multitask control and faster decision making skills then others do. They just learned it better/practiced more This coucil will be the end of whats left of SC2
hate to break it to you but sc2 was dead when the very first game came out aka wings of liberty. game feels nothing like starcraft, so many soulless cash grab decisions and unfaithful adaptations.
That's always been an issue with RTS. It's supposed to be strategy (and it is to some extent, especially at pro levels where APM is somewhat equal and therefore less of a factor) but you can be dumb as a rock but if you practice the shit out of the game like a mindless drone until you have high APM then you will get to a high rank just by brute forcing people with your APM, even if your strategy is ass
You do not want your strategy game to get still with one playstyle. You want once a whine change what is the best strategy so players need to adapt and the game will stay fresh
The "nerf" to Liberator range is actually just 0.75, since the radius got increased by 1.25. Meaning it's still going to be a hassle for map builders to take into consideration...
7:50 Damage point is the point in the attack cycle where the damage actually happens. Lower damage point = damage happens earlier. This does not change the overall attack speed, so dps is unchanged, but it does affect how responsive a unit is when microing. Best example is actually an Age of Empires 2 example, the Mangudai vs the Cavalry Archer. Mangudai used to have a damage point of effectively zero, meaning they would fire their arrows INSTANTLY, while cavalry archers would have a wind-up before firing, so despite having very similar attack speeds the mangudai would be able to fire and run FAR better than normal cav archers.
Yes, but this number is very confusing on units with a projectile time. It's not actually the point where damage occurs, it's the point where damage COULD occur if the units were on top of each other.
More core issue is Protoss just doesn't have anywhere near the same threat to Terran bases that Terran have toward protoss base throughout the game. Hero does spectacular gymnastics trying to eek out wins but T can play mmm all game at all levels and things are just seemless. Nerfing protoss unit damage is particularly bad. Their harass is annoying whereas mmm drop will at least get med dmg and might just end the game.
yeah but a good mothership is a bad idea. if you make it legit then other races need a hero unit. might as well just leave it bad. you can make it unabductable i dont care cos it still just dies easily to corruptor.
The queen nerf is offset entirely by the hatchery cost reduction. You’re getting that 2nd and 3rd hatchery down that much faster, allowing you to mine resources more quickly, easily compensating for the 25 mineral increase to Queens. Those other buffs to zerg are wholly unnecessary (although the hydra/infestor ones look good).
@@bobagowoof *The only things that could possibly be patched in Broodwar are:* 1. Make Consume give 25 energy instead of 50. 2. Make Scouts cheaper. 3. Make Spawn Broodlings only require 125 energy instead of 150 (it's just a worse irradiate and takes WAY too long to get ready). 4. Give Ghosts +5 damage (they are literally never ever ever ever used in ladder, +5 dmg would make them _slightly_ less useless) 5. _Maybe_ give the Firebats +1 armor (since they're Terran's only melee option against Dark Swarm and _should_ be better vs speedlots). And those are me really boiling it down because honestly, it wouldn't change much it would just balance the game a tiny, tiny bit.
@@StudioMod You could argue that Valks should do splash damage against interceptors since they do against literally *every* other air unit and they're the exception for some reason + it might actually give Terran an answer to cross spawn Nexus first carrier builds basically being unbeatable.
10:15 never noticed anyone talking about this - you see Immortals doing 'too much damage' so they get nerfed heavily. So... Marine marauder? Ghost? Lurker?? When protoss has one decent unit it gets nerfed but what about the rest of the games units 'doing too much damage'
@@thefalsehero A more charitable read is that they had to keep gateway units pathetically weak and inefficient because of the mobility of the warp prism... And kept that up for 10 years instead of just nerfing the damn prism and buffing zealot/stalker! ...And it's not like Medivacs and Nydus aren't just warp prism with extra steps anyways yet their ground armies aren't balanced around it
At this point, I'm just convinced the Balance Council just outright hate protoss, and they hate low-level protoss in particular, basically any P form Masters and below has been seriously fucked over by this patch if it goes through.
nah they just want zerg to be op, and zerg has always been op. brood lord meta in wings of liberty, overpowered caster like infestor and lets not forget swarm host meta in hots.
@@Ivhen win rate don't say too much becouse machmaking "MAKE IT close to 50 % " many toss at ladder just have too big MMR becouse toss is easy below master 1
@@piodd4 PvT in master is 56% winrate for toss after 36567 games. In Gm it's 53% winrate for toss, 63% in NA (LOL). Of course toss is favored in non pro level.
@@Ivhen yes its. and i wanna said that is even more favored than winrate show that. Becouse if you have 50%+ winrate (and you are not at the "tail of distribiution" ) you get better and better opponets till you lose . So toss is even more favored but machmaking (mmr system etc) make it less obviuse becouse its kind of "force 50% win rate "
To balance protos its super hard because they have poorly designed OP units like Disruptor ruining it for entire race, the only option is to remove disruptor & design an effecient unit
for sure. this would never allow new player to become pro or challenger grandmaster because pros would always nerf new strats what new players come up with and buff the strats they are already using to maintain their position.
@@wiceorc5105 thats very cynical man if we get the right people on the council we are chilling ppl like pig and harstem are not gonna ruin the game to help themselves yknow. get the ones that are willing to do that the hell out.
@@zergu-yf3gd i decided 13 years ago (during the times of WoL), that i would let same thing happen with sc2 what happened with wc3 (burnout). So instead of just ravaging into my way into stars I just chill at the low mmr masters and propably quit the game for good. I am sorry but I believe this is for the best for all of the community. I just met a guy couple days ago and he sayed that he hated me and the game and I knew just why. Overally people are just exhausted and tired. And actually I never encounter such speak in the game before even I have played 20 years. This why I am stressed with the patches because they make me naturally more interest of the game when I should now slowly slide away just like what I planned.
The balance council is corrupt. Match fixing my proxy. Something starcraft players have tried to execute more than once in different ways. The words they use shows they are Bias to terran and zerg. Protoss is so frustrating to play against. - corrupt design council Terran and zerg dont have an equal mechanic as protoss so its not fair. - corrupt design council They complain about protoss showing there is no voice that matters in that room for protoss and the a certain level of design goal is to make fighting against protoss as easy as possible. Where's protoss mechanic for heave instant vision across the map with. where's protoss flying structures? wheres a useful aoe for protoss that isnt easily countered within 30 seconds? wheres protoss method of repairing health to full? an advanced race who busts a joint and is like "oh this is my life now" The trash level balance team complains about not having what protoss has, and how frustrating it is to fight the few things that protoss has. but when it comes to the other race they shadow buff them on nearly every nerf and pat themselves on the back like they have a certain level of IQ. they are unevolved and corrupt and they need to be held accountable at some point or this will keep happenning. TLDR. Corrupt balance council finds it unfair if they ever lose to a protoss player. their inferiority complex is massive, they arent good enough to be any good so have to balance the game to suit personal directives.
can't even figure out who the problem is since we don't know who is on the council. can deduce that its terran players cos they are the ones who never see their own OP stuff and always cry about other races. has any terran yet acknowledged that widow mines were op? i haven't seen it. they want it permacloaked 1shotting 50 lings still. is what it is.
Its been this way for ages, MMM in theory is countered by AoE damage, but all AoE options for Protoss have huge counters on the terran side (vikings for colossi, ghosts for templar). Also the average protoss ground army is completely devoured by siege tanks/lurkers, hence why skytoss was pretty much the only half decent thing to be doing past the opening minutes of the game. I've quit grinding the ladder seriously on the patch where they made Adepts leave a marine/scv with 1 hp after two shots. That was such a disgusting biased nerf for that specific matchup that I've lost all faith in the balance of the game going forward. Adepts on launch were crazy strong, but there could be another way to adress that other than the 1 hp bullshit we got.
@@lincolnreinert1205 protoss finally had an decent answer with distruptor but then council went "toss always spam distruptor mid-late game" hit them with nerf every patch and still goes "still distruptor all the time gotta nerf them more" without seeing why toss have to go distruptor all the time. (To be fair I fucking hate distruptor but Toss cant do shit without them because other units are just too bad for their cost).
I think it would be awesome to have Stalkers' firing pattern changed. Like... instead of twin shots at the current firing intervals... have them shoot single shots at twice the rate with half damage per shot. Total DPS would be the same over time, but improves their top-end stutterstep APM ceiling. Maybe even half damage with a little less than twice the shooting rate... would need testing. But I think Stalker stutter stepping feels really weak against Marines AND it contributes to the typical "Protoss is EZ cuz look how low APM" argument, since the APM thing is actually a result of the number of different activated abilities needed and the gating on Protoss units' firing rate.
Lol, what are talking about. There tons of options. 1) you can die. 2) you can leave the game before that. 3) you can hide pylons everywhere on the map.
Roach all ins early game will be deadly against toss especially with the immortal and battery nerf. That’s already strong if you prepare for it. Literally so dumb.
More energy on a sentry won’t work(ravagers) and if the opponent has 10+ roaches/ravagers an oracle isn’t going to do much. Really dissapointed all around as a toss main.
My idea for nerfing the ghost: Microbial shroud nullifies snipe damage. Mothership provides passive aura that nullifies EMP damage to units within range. As for the Queen, just make it limited to 2 per hatchery. No need to nerf Zerg's only early game defensive strategy. Just prevent massing it.
Wouldn't 2 queens/hatchery just mean that a rush to like 3 banshees or 4 oracles is an instant gg. 2 Queens cant defend against that and if they group you can just move to another base to kill those workers instead because queens are slow and don't fly and all maps have ramps and chokepoints that force the queens to take the long way round. Seeing mass queens every game is boring but realistically zerg needs a hatchery tier anti-air option if they were to nerf that. Or i guess they could nerf it and buff its anti air attack. Also it's not just banshee or oracle, anything that flies is a problem.
@@jajaxaxa I feel like limiting the number of queens you can have would make it much safer to straight up buff them. Increasing their anti air attack wouldn't be much of an issue anymore. I know that everyone wants the queen niche to be filled by other options however at this point I believe it is safe to say that it is here to stay and as such we should look at balancing around its existence.
@@soldier22881 lol, those are all sub par units, all countered very easily. Thors beat broods laughably bad. Ghosts beat all 3 single handedly. BC likewise. Liberators likewise. Vikings likewise. I think a very large broodlord force probably beats marines, but that's about it. Swarm host is the hardest unit in the game to make viable. Literally just kite any unit to counter swarm hosts.
@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd battle cruisers take forever, thors are incredibly expensive, infestor mind control thor easily. ghosts get viper pulled easily, liberators take time to deploy, zerg have corruptors to easily delete terran air. brood lord prevent ground units from ever moving. swarm host literaly dominated zerg meta and is still strong summon and forget unit.
@@llamadelreyii3369 he admitted in another comment that he doesn't even play starcraft 2 and just plays brood war and likes to troll SC2 players since he hates SC2 for taking a large chunk of playerbase
Protoss only wins with strongest and most accurate execution, meanwhile MMM-ghost ball just auto mitigates EVERY SINGLE thing in the protoss aresenal rhat levels the playing field. Sheesh, cant they recognize that? The ghost needs to be nerfed. And, did they forget why battery overcharge existed in the first place??? Becausr toss just dies to retarted crap in the early game all the time. It was only to allow us to survive long enough to get going. Batteries are a survival strategy for the early game. Now we are just going to get 3raxed, spine rushed, or roach all inned every single game again. Thx idiots at the "balance" team. Lets make a race that requires many more control groups require even more control group cycling to deal with the a-move stutter ball.
@@TheChaosNovathe solution’s really simple and been proposed a dozen times. make it so you can’t have 20 ghosts. make them cost 3 supply. or, nerf the ghost and shift the power over to the completely-forgotten-about raven.
@@TheChaosNova I think there could be some safe shifts to Ghosts (i.e. 3 supply, making them Light units, which they TOTALLY should be. They're smaller than Marines! And yeah, something so EMP doesn't fully crush Shields AND Energy AND cloaking... it should be one first THEN the other and breaking cloaking hurts SO bad for the units it affects, especially since they now have zero shields or energy) However, I think one VERY fair thing would be to bring the visibility and audio cues of EMP much more obvious. When fighting, you're normally looking at the enemy units you're targeting, not your own units, and there is almost nothing to grab your attention when EMP goes off mid-fight. If it's the ONLY thing that happens, say at max-range or something, yeah, it's a bit easier. But it's awful losing a lategame army's energy and half it's health and not knowing what happened until you watch the Replay.
As a Terran player I actually like the idea of punishing ebay blocks and supply depot blocking. Shouldn't be able to block and bunker rush an opponent from the jump without making a sacrifice
I think this patch may have been for not just the highest level of play but also for different levels. There is a HUGE difference between how Toss performs on the professional levels vs the lower levels especially w skytoss. Many of the nerfs i think were targeting that, which sadly doesn't help herO or other pro toss players
yeah why is it that toss crushes gm ladder but cant wina tournament. is it just because if you know their style you can counter it? but on ladder you dunno who it is most of the time? i dunno
If the SCII balance team somehow could change SCI: -Now you need 2 Gantrithor on Overmind to finish the mission -Dragoon Patching Nerf -Pylon now needs energy field to be warped
I think the main reason sc2 is so defensive is there is no early game. You start with too many workers which makes limits creativity in openers. Terran baicly can't kill Protoss or Zerg in the early games so what do you expect.
This was one of the worst changes to the game. The general trend started even before that (like making the barracks require a supply depot) and it severely limits the early options and leads to boring samey games.
It will be interesting to see what the final numbers are after the PTR period, but I agree that the FULL heal on the depot is massive, maybe to counter baneling busts, while the hatchery cost buff will help zerg expand faster than they already do, too...
Maybe have the depot get additional health, but let it retain damage while getting the max increase and heal only the difference in how much max health it gained?
Starcraft Balance Council actually hates toss more than Artosis
can confirm, gateway units are very weak because of warp gate, if they just nerf warp gate and increase strength of gate way units protoss will no longer have to rush early game. but this is new blizzard, they cant balance a single thing, all old devs left so new team didint earn this mantle and it shows
@@soldier22881 Play scr . There Toss is ok :))
Artosis is protoss in sc2
Honestly, sc2 protoss is nothing like broodwar protoss. When I play sc2, protoss just doesn't have the same tankiness/elite feel to them like in broodwar
@@soldier22881 i thought the balance council were pro players?
the most important part is that the energy overcharge has a SIXTY (yes, 60) SECONDS GLOBAL COOLDOWN, which is conveniently omitted from the patch notes 😂
Yeah, IDK what they were thinking with that . Make it not global and maybe 30 sec cd and its way better .
Isn't that kinda stupid? Im not really into starcraft but Energy regenerates at fixed speed across all races with 1 energy in a second?
That means if u use Energy overcharge ON COOLDOWN you wont be able to utilize your energy at full rate? Since you will regenerate more than u can spend.
@@Nagaimba It is stupid .
But the way you framed is a bit off.
A better way to put it, is to say that this change essentially makes it so 1 of your units has 100 % energy recharge as long as it is bound by global CD . If it was not bound by global CD , then it would be the equivalent of having 1 such spellcaster per Nexus built.
@@shadowpriest2574 Is it global or does it have a cast range?
@@shadowpriest2574 _"Yeah, IDK what they were thinking with that . Make it not global and maybe 30 sec cd and its way better"_
If you do that and you put 2-3 batteries next to each other, you get next to infinite recharge. One battery charges second battery, second battery charges third, third one charges first, then all 3 heal the units, rinse and repeat.
"We want to nerf turtle playstyles"
*buffs terran turtling*
We want to nerf Zerg's and Protoss' ability to survive the early game, while insuring that Terran does and giving them increase efficiency so they can consistently turtle all the way to a win.
SC2 has always hated Protoss it’s funny to watch
@brandonerickson3935 seems going " protossed! LUL " might have consequences after all lol
no, they nerfed turtling, they buffed the structures. it's very different. Terran now has to be actively moving their defenses.
Zerg got spines and spores buffed too.
Obviously the "nerf turtle playstyles" was just about screwing over Protoss who got their key defensive ability outright removed. Not even nerfed... overcharge is just outright gone.
Protoss nerfed after never winning a tournament
they still op 0 skill like zerg
They’re still super strong in lower leagues. Much higher win rate
@@SlimStarCraft nobody cares about lower leagues, except the lower leagues. It's irrelevant.
they made their intentions clear last patch. They don't want to balance anything. They just want to nerf protoss and seek excuses to do so
@@qweewq-h7p 97% of the player base is in lower leagues, how is that irrelevant? Below master league
*This protoss unit is a bit weak so to make it stronger, we have to nerf a bunch of other stuff.*
*This Zerg unit is a bit strong, so to nerf it we will make everything else much stronger.*
The imbalance council are cooking nothing but crystal meth
listen zerg deserves a spore buff. 15 damage anti air? no air unit respects them
"We want less defensive play" >nerfs battery, nerfs immortals, because "protoss had a chance to win early, which we somehow now hate". >buffs ALL terran static defense. >nerfs bunker rushes, "because apparently we now want the game to be less active early on". >buffs spores, buffs expanding for zerg, buffs all zerg static defense. Edit: I forgot the "We want more aggressive playstyles, so we buffed mech"
Protoss was already six feet under, down in the dirt. This patch is just nailing the coffin shut
1. maybe protoss player are weaker i notice that is many terran player and especial zerg player who can be alsoe top 10 toss player XD but i see non toss player who can be top 10 terran/zerg
2. toss still completly destory ladder
if you wanna get master asap just pick toss
@@piodd4 no
@@carlosr6462 yes
@@carlosr6462u must not play. Toss dominate in ladder
He has "Thank God I play BW and not SC2" tattooed on his face at the end of this video.
Same, I far prefer BW to SC2, but I'm still a bit invested in SC2 patches because I watch quite a lot of pro SC2 games. Many of my issues with SC2 are deep mistakes that the devs made from day 1, and it's unlikely they'd ever fix them, but I would still like to see them improve what they can improve. The goals they described in this patch were decent.
And that is a great thing for him and the whole SC2 community.
He has to cast this shit now which will be 100% marauder and roach rush on toss every game instant gg
I think I went back to BW about 2 months after SC2 came out. Played about 10 minutes of HotS, and never even bothered with the 3rd release. I shudder to think how bad the game has gotten now that AV/Blizz has mostly abandoned it.
1000000%
Make disruptor "better against marines".
So, the most tech advanced protoss unit needs help against litteraly the first unit Terran can bild...
Yes. Now we're starting to see why they needed to tear everything down and rebuild.
Mothership needs to be immune to yanks and immune to emp.
never in a million years will this council makes Mothership immune to YANK, they just hate protoss at this point
Make it even immune to all spells. It makes no sense a single viper, ghost, templar etc. can fuck up a capital ship the size of multiple carriers (per lore).
They could make this happen, they could also buff damage, but then you need to increase supply drastically. Where we are talking to 10-15 supply. The problem with making the mothership good, is that it will just become the equilivant of brood war carrier. Must get every game and you win.
EMP should only remove protoss shield temporarily. Ghost can one-click remove whole protoss army shields and everyones fine with that? fucking cmon man
Just make mothership spell immune.
Doesn't turrets and sensor towers being salvageable just make Terran want to camp even more? You can basically camp till the map mines out then sell it all to build more army while your opponent cant.
That seems like something that gana lead to some stupid abusing and probably nerf again later. Odd choice
Not even a minor tweak to the Ghost is the biggest crime coming from this patch.
Move EMP to the raven I say, make it the exact same mechanic as anti-armour missile, unlocked with ghost academy, same radius and damage as EMP but with a flight time.
That or here is a fun idea, put an upgrade on the ghost academy that upgrades reaper grenades to include a 50 damage EMP (50 shield 50 energy), ghost loses EMP.
Late game reaper flanks just for EMP divebombs. Hell make it work on unit death so that reapers become EMP banelings lol.
@@Starky_3D Strictly speaking I don't mind that EMP is on the Ghost. If I were proposing changes I would suggest making it so a single EMP always removes a flat 50% of Protoss shield regardless of a unit's shield size. Force Terran to use multiple spells for the same impact. At the same time, some serious adjustments to the Ghost's durability and damage output wouldn't go amiss. A spellcaster that cloaks shouldn't also have high attack and be survivable when caught out.
Buff ghost
@@juny9445 Um, let's not and say we did. :p
i think this patch is throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks, lots of new ideas, few minor tweaks
The patch grade is: 9/10 for creativity, 1/10 for actual balance. It get's a school grade F, "you tried, and the picture you drew at a side looks nice and all but we're doing math here and 2+2 is not 5"
Nailed it
The game is out over 10 years. It's OK to try out some things and be a tiny bit creative. This makes it less boring than calculating the same formular over and over.
Balance Clowncil,
Want to decrease turtle gameplay but give terran more advantage when Turtling
Going to need to considering what they're doing to zerg.
its only fair when theres invisible men
and no ghost change
🤡
Terrans are always on the map doing drops or attacking zerg sending limg waves everytime you leave your base is what causes turtling at lower levels.
The trolliest thing ever is them showing gameplay footage of a Ravager biling a Sentry instead of the forcefield blocking the entire army from going up the ramp. Balance council really considers us idiots.
And they're right.
No the funniest part was when they showed the ultralist buff helping it run faster into still getting killed by MMM
Yeah that was so dumb I couldn't believe Arty didn't point that shit out right away.
Lol yeah their videos are funny. There has definitely been a decline in quality since Blizzard stepped out.
@@MrDdz He was busy wrestling with the abject stupidity of the patch notes.
Even worse it was biling an unpowered cannon.
Balance council hates Protoss
and they love zerg. swarm host, nuff said
this is why you don't give balancing to the community
as they should
@@soldier22881 swarm host? the most unused unit zerg has? what?
@@zergu-yf3gd nice try zerg player, yeah the unit that was so "unused" that there are tons of videos and tournaments where both zerg players just make the game last for eternity? clearly "unused"
Zerg not having hydras (aka anti-air) at tier 1.5 causes so many problems in SC2. Their early anti-air options are gross. I'm glad Blizzard is trying to reduce Zerg's reliance on mass queens for early defense, but shifting all that power into static defense sounds bad.
Yeah just let hydras be made on hatch tech, it would literally fix so much, because they suck anyways as a tier 2 unit.
@@lifenote1943Would make roaches kinda irrelevant since you can just tech into lurkers quicker rather than having to go with an awkward ravager timing.
@@reishiki8682 yeah get roaches the fuck out of here too, stupid fucking unit, it's literally a replacement for the old hydra, but because they dont shoot up they needed to add the queen.
Either way roaches are stupid, I never watch a game and say "oh wow Dark made a ton of roaches and A moved, that was so much fun to watch and it took a great level of skill".
People talk about toss being an A move race LETS TALK ABOUT ZERG IN SC2.
Not just shifting it into static defense, but claiming to be trying to nerf turtle playstyles in the very same patch. Who they fooling?
Love how the patch notes promise to make hydras more playable but in reality, blanket 8% move nerf to hyrdas, *BUT* if you get to hive tech, and then research a thing, THEN you can dash for 0.7 seconds...
Balance counsel is smoking some SERIOUS refer with this patch.
thejubbinator1065 is smoking some SERIOUS refer with this comment.
They hate Protoss 😂
are you guys surprised though? they literally created the boring swarm host brood lord meta
Don’t disrespect the devils lettuce like that bro.
FREE PROTOSS WEED LORD 420
Love how they don't want turtling so they buff the spore and spine crawler, turret, bunker, sensor tower, liberator, make hatcheries cheaper which means more creep and bases to turtle in, etc.
Was the anti-turtling thing sarcasm?
But at least the have successfully crippled protoss defense.
they are the same balance team that created swarm host, because the faction that has mass larva inject isint "swarmy" enough
Don't forget they removed protoss' ability to turtle by removing overshield.
It only applied to Protoss. Its insane how much better the Protoss players have to be just to make a top 16 in a tournament compared to the two easy races
You usually make more queens than hatcheries so that kind of offsets that. The bunker got nerfed but yes the salvage on turrets is stupid
Always amazes me how they can repeatedly buff Zerg and Terran, but they can't ever do a straight-up buff for Protoss. Every increase comes with a drawback. It's so clear they despise Protoss.
Zerg got crazy nerfs too. Hydra speed lower and queen cost increase
It's because Protoss isn't underpowered. Protoss is fundamentally too strong for how little effort it requires to play it. Of course when you're at 7k mmr, playing with clem and trying to win tournaments, you're going to struggle. But at every single level below literal professionals, protoss is overpowered.
@@Eldinarcus So why not make protoss have a higher skill cap? These abilities do nothing but hurt players.
As they should.
@@angelsantana6995 I think the Dash is going to add more than the speed redux removes. Think about being able to completely dodge Disruptor Novas now with Hydra dash. Plus Ravagers no longer get oneshot by them. Also, with the Microbial Shroud buffs, Shrouded Hydras can dash to position under Liberators or other air siege units and pop them while being masked from damage. Liberators now siege up closer to their liberation zones due to the range decrease, so anti-air can reach sieged Libs a tiny bit easier (although there's always a Terran buff to counteract any nerf and so their zones are way bigger...).
The Queen thing is complex, don't really know how that will shake out now, but I suspect Spores will shreck Oracles with the damage buff. I didn't do the math but I would bet there are now fewer shots to kill.
Just food for thought on those points o7
"In this patch, to discourage turtling, we've rewarded terrans for turtling and buffed zerg defenses"
yeah I haven't been invested in SC2 balance in a long time, but just a quick survey of this patch made me go... WTF?
Well this is why it is a « PTR » patch that needs to test stuff of the PTR 😅 People go crazy on these while we don’t even know how much of the changes will actually be left after being tested out on the PTR
have you seen their patch notes in general? a whole lot of back and forth buffs/nerfs. clearly devs have no idea what they are doing, zero play testing and they had TEN years to make sc2
@@soldier22881 These aren't the original devs. These are community "modders" that can now mod the official version. Blizz is gone.
@@soldier22881 dude they put the patch on test for ppl to test? its not carved in stone and is subject to change. i think you are just troling.
I dont like disrupter but if your gonna have it, dont make it worthless it cant even one shot marauders so they can just heal up and make your very few disrupter hits to do basically nothing. Making protoss even more likely to get steamrolled by marines and marauders.
They might as well replace it with something else at this point. I don't think the disruptor is a well liked unit, even by protoss players
@@eoconnor3196can confirm, not even protoss like disruptor. Luckily they made it even better and more stupid in PvP though.
still 4 supply btw even tho it weaker
starcraft 2 is badly balanced in general, static defenses are way too weak, all three factions get access to uber armored high hp units just boil down early game to whoever loses first battle loses whole game. theres no comeback mechanics like broodwar
@@eoconnor3196 It's literally the reason why i don't play the game anymore. That and rapid fire shit. I don't want to play mass ghost army because terrans literally don't have any options vs lurkers
I do not know how they can claim this balance patch was aiming at reducing turtle playstyle while buffing Terran's turtle strats that hard. Those Mothership buffs are meaningless when it can still get yanked and ganked with ease.
they need to get rid of the viper unit
Well blue flame at least allows for more strats mid game to do games so Terran has the option to not go to late game. Right now the window for a Terran to kill a Zerg mid games is basically nonexistent.
@@damienpugh1777viper is ok, it just shouldnt be able yoink huge enemies, like bc, carrier and mothership.
this is the same blizzard that created swarm host, are you guys seriously surprised at a change like this?
@@soldier22881 It's really not the same people though.
I just can't fathom why they didn't do anything to the Ghost. Give it a light tag, or make it cost more supply, or make EMP/snipe cost more energy. Mass ghost as part of Terran composition is basically uncounterable.
its called feed back and banelings. protoss still overpowered storm spam instant warp in entire army and zerg still strongest because of op brood lord infestor swarm hosts
@@soldier22881 you sound like someone who hasn't played since HotS.
@@TheStargov you sir are correct, last time i played was during wings of liberty stopped playing after seeing how much they ruined my beloved franchise
@@soldier22881 then why are you here bitching about a game that you've been disinterested in for atleast 12 years now? Get a fucking life bro.
I think the Terran Council caves to the idea that it's too important of a unit in late game for terran, and they just won't touch it regardless of how obvious it is that it needs a nerf.
Protoss player here, been playing since SC1... there were breaks in between, but I am still Grandmaster toss as of this week.
Been thinking about quitting for a while now, (years even), Toss gets no love, Terran super strong, and Zerg just got buff to madness...
I think this does it.
I finally have enough reason to quit the game that Blizzard doesn't care about anymore.
And with me quitting OW since 2023 cancelling of PvE... I am now finally going to completely quitting blizzard games.
... funny thing is, I am not even feeling depressed, I feel .... free.
maybe I can finally spend more times with kids and family... who am I kidding, looks like it going to be Helldivers2 here on.
Congrats on leaving the sunk cost fallacy, hope you do good things with your new time. And congrats on grandmaster.
@@azhp42069 Thanks, I really been thinking for years now... I couldn't cause you know, been here for so long...
but this patch, the way they treat toss, something snapped in my head, and I am now like, "should have done this years ago..."
dang bro it took you this long?
Based. I only play Starcraft 2 for modded campaigns and arcade anymore
another reason broodwar is better than sc2, and i mean original starcraft not the cash grab remaster that ruined sc1 with those mirror maps and wierd upward ramps and bad maps.
Dark after reading the patch: Baby needs a new pair of shoes...I guess I shouldn't retire.
If the patch goes live as-is, Terrans will be by far the biggest winners. So nah, Dark won't be smiling.
Dark: time to switch to terran
The Liberator buff is ridiculous
I just hope that they change the name for the Hydralisk ability. "Dash" is probably what we'll end up calling it, but it doesn't evoke the same feeling as the other upgrades/abilities. Call it "Myofibrillic Burst" or something. I'm sure they could come up with something better.
We are preventing camping but here call
Down a supply depo which allows you to hide and camp
Of all the objections to the patch, this is the DUMBEST and just outs you as a gold player.
Terran already have repair. How many situations do you honestly encounter where attacking units can overwhelm 3 repairing SCVs, but not 500 damage? It's going to be significant in maybe 0.001% of games.
@@snealbli maybe if u a newb
@@snealbli I tend to agree. 10 years ago this change could have been useful, but now? Rather pointless.
When LotV released I stopped playing SC2 altogether and made a mod instead, implementing a lot of cool ideas others have posted over the years in the forums. Well, at the ones I found to be cool. The depot calldown increased hp to 600 as well as giving it a medic like heal ability, so it's not just useful against baneling bust, but also things like proxy Voids or Tempest.
@@snealbli nahh bro this is insane against zerg you can drop that in the middle of a bane bust and just delete the entire bane count for free
@@nightmareTomek I wish more people made mods to implement ideas and actually adress the game's problems
I like how Protoss gets a worthless gimmicky ability in exchange for completely gutting their defense but zerg gets 15 fucking buffs to compensate for a small Queen nerf. Clearly they needed it after winning almost every major tournament for the last several years.
I love how they were so afraid of what a Queen cost increase would do that they compensated Zerg in 3 other ways, including making their core economic structure cheaper.
But in the same patch decided, "Hey Protoss doesn't REALLY need shield overcharge, right?"
it lowkey could be a buff. all base structures are -100 cos of the supply they give so you're looking at 225 effective cost for a hatch, only 50 more than a queen.
oh and depending how much value you place on the 2 supply that queen eats that could make up the difference. instead of creep tumours just make hatcheries in a line towards your opponent lmao
@@zergu-yf3gdall base structures cost a drone.... You all tend to forget that
The most important ZERG resource for half the game
@@jesusbarrera6916 i didn't forget that dude your maths sucks. 275+50 = 325. 325-100 = 225 which is the effective cost of the hatchery
also by base structures i meant cc, nexus, hatchery, yknow, base structures
Biggest points of confusion.
1) want to nerf turtling, but I think improved the turtling of Terran which is by far the biggest offender.
2) I think they actually kind of nerfed several early game all ins/pressures against Terran with new supply depot drop and maybe even vs Zerg with stronger static defense? (Only the super early stuff to be fair)
3) how are we nerfing the immortal when that is what finally let us get out of sky toss every game meta that everyone hates including Protoss.
Finally, and most importantly after literally years of struggling at the highest level Protoss gets yet another overall nerf vs an overall buff of terran and the ghost remains untouched….
The Blue flame buff is like bringing back the Vulture harassment to the mineral line
Blue flame should never have been touched. Slayers used it in ONE game and Blizzard freaks out. It was an utter travesty.
@@d0k0night from zerg pov it is super broken to make lings obsolete in the early game and forever. roach is not a viable unit against terran and if you can force us to make them you have already won.
Toss needs buffs, not nerfs.
Balance council? more like terran council.
Toss is so weak, no protoss can climb high enough to be on the council.
nah they gave all the buffs to zerg, broolord super op, infestor best caster and lets not forget swarm host meta. terran still weakest despite op protoss getting nerfed. protoss still more a move than terran
@@soldier22881Terran is definitely not the weakest at the highest level
Zerg literally only got buffs lol
@@soldier22881 just mass marauders rush. Now you won't ever lose, a move it's over
Energy overcharge has a 1 minute cooldown so it's essentially near pointless.
It really seems like a trolling ability. "He he we will remove overcahrge and give them this pointless ability, so we can say they got a buff he he"
I think it can be a buff. Use it on a Nexus for 2 extra Chrono boasts. But I don't know enough about protoss build order so it prob won't do much. I wish it cost 0 energy so you get 4 extra!
Maybe they watched hours of gameplay and saw wow this ability is really over powered and destroys interaction in the game
@@izanagi3521 Can't use it on a Nexus
@@izanagi3521 you cant use it on your nexus....
I tested it on ptr today
In general protoss early game is really weak right now and so far for PvZ atleast i havent really found a good way to use the energy ability. I have seen some pros use it on the first oracle but then you have to skip one chrono on workers or not chrono your second oracle and so far I found the second oracle to be still better to have for harassment since the new damage output of spore crawlers makes it really hard to stay in eco lines for long time so having 2 oracles to do the hit and run to one shot drones still seems way better
"Brings back the full power of the mothership"..
LIES!!, where the fuck's my archon toilet huh Blizzard?! - WHERE IS IT?!
forget archon toilet, just give passive cloaking back. The only reason to build a mothership in PvZ it to hide units and save an abduct or two.
Since thay love Terran so much it won't happen, even after12 years they're still having ptsd from GSL Season 2 Finals 2012- Mvp vs Squirtle game 5.
blizzard aint making this patches mate
@@scyrp i loved the blackhole, i absolutely adored the ever living shit out of it, because of all the ways you could get creative with it, but in all fairness if they really wanted to bring back the motherships full power, you would need both the cloaking and the blackhole, with the 400/400/8 stats. because that's how it was.
@@ScaredHamshee isn't it stupid how that game defined so much going forward for protoss?
its kinda funny to think about really that, every since they nerfed the mothership the first time, every single patch from there on until today is like 75% - 80% nerfs to buffs overall.
whereas terran and zerg have always been the opposite overall, it's almost like the guys in charge are pure zerg/terran players, at least back in the day Dustin always showed up to take the beating, apologize and back paddle the most nerfs.
no ghost changes OMEGALUL
called using feedback
@@soldier22881zerg doesn't have that
@@soldier22881 "Oh, no! He has 20 ghosts! I know! I'll use feedback!" 🤓👆
*high templars get EMP'd and eviscerated by Terran army before a single feedback goes off*
"Oh no! What happened!? I had the perfect plan!" 😫
@@soldier22881 you're fucking crazy if you think a high templar can make it to a ghost army to feedback them
"Blizzard saw this and decided to nerf Protoss" meme is true
We wanna nerf camping playstyle....so siege tanks,widov mines , bunkers that is not camping playstyle but shield battery is
The balance council really just wanted to nerf protoss camping. Terran and Zerg actually got buffs to their turtling tactics.
@@thefalseheroBS... ZERG got a huge nerf to the QUEEN and static defense has never been a turtle mechanic to ZERG, it was used more offensively than defensively
@@jesusbarrera6916 I agree, but Protoss got shafted so hard that I really wanted to highlight them by singling them out.
And I do think that under top level play, zerg static D is still used as a camping tool, so my comment isn't completely wrong.
@artosis you have to remember spines and spores cost a drone. That's why queens where so good.
and even beyond the drone, queens dont even take larvas. They are literally on their own personal production queue while all other troops AND workers need larvas
queens should cost 50 gas.
@@JohnSmith-zb8lz that would be even worse. Zerg REALLY need that early gas for zergling speed, then to tier up and/or for roaches. a 50 gas cost would kill the queen completely as a combat unit, except zerg NEED queens for combat in the early game as they dont have any other mobile anti-air until T2 (and thats before considering at least one per hatch is so mandatory it might as well be an extra cost of hatcheries, plus you also likely want at least an extra one for creep tumors)... such a change would flat out kill the zerg completely in competitive play. because if your early game is ass, you wont live to see the mid or late game.
Sad thing is, the zerg flat out dont function without queens, and restricting their access makes the entire race flat out worse.
Somehow I bet Zergs will be fine even with the mineral increase.
Yea but Zergs build workers the fastest. Every CC or Nexus can only build 1 worker at a time, Zerg can build 3 at a time and with injects its even more. Its way way faster than chrono boosting probes. This is why you need drones to make buildings, if not Zerg would be broken making workers at more than 3x the speed of other race. Not to mention spores cost less than turrets and cannons.
Also, it's not a straight nerf for the Queen cost change. You can now build hatch for 25 minerals less, meaning you can build the natural hatch earlier and have the first queen earlier. That 25 mineral difference probably amounts to 2-3 seconds. This will destroy reaper openings. You also get to inject or spawn creep 2-3 seconds faster. Yes the 2nd queen onwards will start to cost more minerals. Probably around the 3min to 5mins mark. However after that, mineral is generally not a problem as Zerg starts to build up a bank. So the 2-3min mark Zerg actually got buffed and the 3-5min mark it got nerfed a bit. After that the impact is less pronounced. If you make 10 queens it's only 250 more minerals. Make 20 and it's only 500 minerals extra cost. It's not going to matter much from mid to late game onwards, especially some of the cost is going to be offset by hatcheries you make.
This is not a big deal at all, Zergs players will probably benefit from the early 1st Queen in exchange for probably 1 less drone during the 3-5 min mark. People also forget that the new Spore changes makes it stronger against Oracle and Liberators harass. The Queens are still in a very strong spot.
The balance council should all go see a psychiatrist
they need to see a firebat, because they are infested and heavily biased towards zerg
Protoss will be even deadder after this 😅 Where is the line: "mothership now immune to abduct"
The ghost is notably absent from this.
it's cloaked
Keeping a scorecard of buff numbers isn't that effective, its more about the impact of said buffs.
When you look at what the buffs will do, Terran definitely comes out on top, wider lib range and faster transform is going to be a big deal.
Full healing a supply depot with 100+ hp is gonna be a big deal too early game.
The most absurd thing is that in this patch meant to help protoss, one of the biggest banes of protoss and zerg went completely untouched.
The ghost, that one unit that does everything and then some.
my man, you do know that the feedback spell from broodwar was given to high templars right? same range as emp but is insta cast
@@soldier22881 Yep, but the ghost does not need to hit the templar, it needs to hit the army and erase their shields, and no one puts the templar in front cause they they will be shot up by the bio.
@@LordMephilis dont group your army into a ball then? i dont see the problem, have some observers to scout ahead of your army and dont ball up. are you using dropships to transport your high templars?
The queen nerf is pretty big though. Zero makes 8 queens by 5 min, that's 200 min, which is four drones. Zerrg usually hits 56 workers at around that time. Because of the compounding effects of income, I bet they only hit 50 on that build. In pvz that will make p eco better than z, which it already is until 4 min. This makes mass queen unviable as a build vs something like an adept all in. It also makes queen ravange walks unviable as an all in. Vs t it is similarly a huge nerf. Zero eco is the most precise, so small disruptions snowball wildly. I think it's a good change, but I think arty is overly dismissive of it
@@soldier22881 You clearly dont play the game.
The top protoss players will always use the energy recharge on cooldown, so it's going to make oracle openings and storm timing attacks incredibly strong.
Nerfing the worst race and giving the other two buffs is definitely absurd. That being said, many of the units in this game are badly designed so these minute changes aren't going to get anywhere near fixing the game.
This patch is so dumb. With every new patch i dislike playing more and more. The more patches, the more frustrating the game gets. I think to properly enjoy sc2, we all need to switch to Terran 🎉
i stopped playing after wings of liberty, i saw just how bad they made starcraft 2, it did not feel like starcraft, and the patch notes dear god ive never seen a team that has no idea what to do, 10 years in development and zero play testing and it shows. All their budget time went into graphics and seeing how much they could ruin the lore/story of starcraft so they could sell the game to esports.
the world we currently live in is a nightmare
i uninstalled the game a couple weeks ago. This game isn't worth the frustration to me anymore.
you can't switch to terran and enjoy it because tvt is the worst matchup in the game
I agree to everything you have said. I want to add some more.
Greater Picture (Variety)
If we take a step back and look at Starcraft 2 and ask what makes a good RTS, we come across much larger and more fundamental issues that would need to be addressed. I believe the variety is one of the biggest factors. This is why SC2 Co-op commanders and fun maps are more successful than the ranked mode.
Even in Warcraft 3, fun maps were much more popular than ranked modes. In fact, some games like Dota and League of Legends have emerged from these maps and have overtaken RTS games in terms of player and viewer numbers.
Maps
One of the biggest and most fundamental problem is the maps. All Starcraft 2 maps are structurally the same type. There is only one map type. In contrast, Age of Empires has dozens of map types. To name a few: Arabia, Island, Black Forest, Arena, Nomad, Rivers, Gold Rush. All these maps require completely different strategies. In Starcraft 2, that's not the case. You can play any strategy on every map. There are maybe a few rare exceptions with very minor differences. The fact that SC2 has only one map type compared to dozens in Age of Empires shows that SC2 offers significantly less variety in this regard. (That's a problem)
There’s a reason for this: if SC2 had open maps like Arabia in Age of Empires 2, the game would be completely unbalanced. It’s essential to block narrow choke points with buildings and units because otherwise, it would lead to an automatic loss in most cases. This in itself is a problem.
Designing SC2 from the ground up for more open maps would be the better approach to balancing the game, and as a positive side effect, this would allow for a greater variety of map types. If the balance works on completely open maps, then one can consider other, more complex map types, because all maps have open spaces where bases and armies meet and fight. The balance must work there. Open maps reveal the real balance problems with more clarity.
Scouting
In SC2, you only have to scout enemy buildings and units. In Age of Empires, you also have to scout resources, the exact position of your opponent, paths to the enemy, choke points, potential expansion spots, etc. This means there’s more variety. It's often said that SC2 is harder, but that only applies to the mechanical aspect and not to the strategic one. Scouting an unknown map and using that information requires more strategic decisions. In SC2, you know everything in advance and have done it a thousand times before. It becomes more about execution and less about spontaneous decision-making. If SC2 had randomly generated and unknown maps like Age of Empires 2, players would have more opportunities to show how well they can adapt to different situations. This would give them more room to demonstrate their skill. The skill ceiling would increase, which ties back into variety-something all RTS players crave.
The crave for variety is the reason why there are different maps, factions, units, abilities, game modes, etc. This is one of the reasons why MOBAs and SC2 Co-op Commanders have become more successful than ranked in SC2 or Warcraft 3. There are more, but that would require much more text. Solutions are often a combination of many changes.
2 second fights (/ massive massive damage / too low HP / and many more describe all the same problem)
Another problem is the high damage or the low health of units, which makes it difficult for casual players to keep up with the mechanical challenges of certain units and easy-to-execute rush strategies. This is why very few casual players participate in 1v1 ranked games. You can have fun as a casual player in 1v1 ranked through executing a hard to defend rush faster than the opponent. This is fun that can be easily obtained, but on the other hand, it can also feel very frustrating, because there is no feel of a match with a story and chances for a comeback. Combacks are mostly seen by pro players, but these comebacks are hard to reach and therefore seldom in comparison to the number of matches. The tools for comebacks are missing and the strategic room SC2 offers is very limited (No walls, simplified economy, indestructable walls from the beginning of each map --> cliffs etc.) Not just the number of resources are important, but also the ways how to get them which can also open up new strategic decision.
Team Games
The sum of all these reasons is why 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 in Starcraft 2 are even less successful.
Walls
Cheap and fast buildable walls give players a tool to manipulate the map situation like no other tool can't. The reason why there are destructable rocks is that developers and players want to change the map situation. To open up new paths reach this. Walls that can be destroyed (not like cliffs) also open up this option, but it also makes it possible to close paths. So it will add even more variety and the situation on the map can change more often than ones, because destructable cliffs can't be build. Walls dramatically change the front lines, leading to more variety and diversity in a match. Players in SC and WC3 uses structures as a wall and that shows the need of the players to have walls. Every SC2 match feels like a bad version of Age of Empires arena map.
Real problem
The ongoing balance changes are only a drop in the ocean and don’t significantly change the fundamental situation. This is evident in the fact that masses of players haven’t returned to SC2, which is ultimately what everyone wants. In general, SC2 needs to consider how to increase variety. A more complex economy like in Age of Empires 2 would be a big step toward increasing variety. In the end, it would lead to more fun for everyone. But many SC2 players and developers are afraid that SC2 would lose its identity if it copied good things from other RTS games, even though it didn’t harm the SC2 Co-op Commander mode to copy player abilities from Age of Mythology and C&C Generals. So, it's more of a war of beliefs rather than a logical and less emotional discussion about how SC2 could be improved, which is ultimately why it doesn’t get significantly better. The people that think why SC2 should't change too much is the reason why SC2 will not improve much. This means that the return of Starcraft 2 is being hindered by those who love Starcraft 2 the most, due to a lack of knowledge about game design and RTS design. They prefer a perfect game for a small target audience instead of a less perfect game for the masses. This means that everyone who thinks what is written here is wrong must accept that Starcraft 2 is not going to get much better. For that, one must be more open to new things. And there are even more ideas from other games.
The balance changes seem not to be aimed at improving anything, but simply to keep Starcraft 2 in the conversation.
The typical misunderstanding is that I want SC2 to be Age 2. But that is not the case, because Age 2 has a lot of more differences like less different cultures, less good unit controls, less good recognizability of units and abilities, mostly no active abilities, less replay features etc. So there are many things that are not good in Age 2. And I would also really enjoy playing in a futuristic setting as a change. But Age 2 has in sum much more good things for the gameplay and that is what I love. I love not Age, I love the better rts mechanics, possibilties and variety. And these good things in a Starcraft game would create the best rts ever made like it would improve every other rts.
So misunderstand me in the right way
I agree with everything you said. I played age of empires since it was on the MSN gaming zone and wc2/sc1/d2 on the original Battlenet. There was a time when RTS games and their expansions would adopt one another's better ideas. Things like queuing the training of multiple units and setting rally points for created units appeared around the same time as AOE's Rise of Rome in games like Red Alert, soon becoming an expected feature of an RTS. So did the ability to garrison units inside buildings who can fire out. AOE and Red Alert later added the Attack-Move command that worked so well for Starcraft and Warcraft. Still, a few features seem to be stubbornly untouched. Starcraft (and wc2) control groups seem tiny to players of other RTS who try to wrap their head around it being intended. An AOE or Civilization player will wonder why there is no "random map" mode that both players have to explore for the first time. And what's with the chokepoints? Imagine AOE with 1v1 Black Forest (and you both know each other's spawnpoint) as the only method of ranked play. I also agree about walls, low hp of units causing extremely short encounters, and how less wildcard factor and response leads to the player's speed of execution being all that matters. Put Arabia in the map pool and the turtles won't be able to hide behind their bunkers. Throw in Nomad mode and some wild hostile creatures and now we're talking! In Starcraft's universe it could be a 'crash on an unknown world' mode.
In AoE 2, the races are essentially the same, that's why you're able to have different maps, because you're basically always playing a mirror match. Everyone is running more or less the same units.
In SC2 with different races, you'll naturally get situations where different races will thrive on different maps and it's just not going to be possible to balance every race on every map type. Hell just look how much damage a speedling run-by can cause to in Protoss vs Zerg and it's pretty obvious why it's a chokeless open map would be utter disaster.
As for why SC2 has popularity issues, I don't think it's the lack of maps, but more so the raw speed of the game. If you don't play SC2 at a high level, it's extremely frustrating because it requires a minimum reaction time to play it at any sort of level. Otherwise it just ridiculously favors the attacker. If you don't notice widow mines, banes, etc. You're pretty much losing your worker line in an instant. Similarly, if a disruptor ball catches you off-guard, you can take massive damage before you're even aware there's a problem.
@@taragnor
"In AoE 2, the races are essentially the same, that's why you're able to have different maps,....."
Not true for Age 4. In Age 4 the civs are completely different and there are still procedural generated maps. So that can't be the reason.
"....and it's pretty obvious why it's a chokeless open map would be utter disaster. "
I know and that is the problem. Two things can be a problem at the same time. The maps are the reasons why the balance is like it is. So change maps and balance of the units, so more maps are possible. It is bad game design if maps have to be built in one special way so factions are still balanced. Even in SC:BW maps are more different. So good that you see the same problem, but your conclusion is wrong.
Your conclusion is: "we have several problems so it has to stay in that way." Right conclusion would be "we have to change maps and the balance at the same time."
"...but more so the raw speed of the game...."
That is right. You have described one additional problem. The thing with the maps is another additional problem. But I agree that the speed of the game is the biggest problem. I wrote that in the us blizzard forums a few days after the release of Wings of Liberty. So I know for a long time. And at this time there were thousand of people who want to tell me everything is fine with SC2 and there is no problem with the speed. Crazy that so many people are wrong and me is right. And today in some other topics it is still the same. Why? Because most people haven't red one book about game design. Most people just play. However, very few have actually engaged with the topic. Most just parrot what some streamer once said, who also knows little about game design but believes they do because they play Starcraft for 12 hours a day. But playing Starcraft and understanding game design are two very different things, and not every Starcraft player is a good game designer. Even not every game designer is a good game designer.
Me and others told the guys that develop Stormgate who worked at Blizzard before in the us forums many times SC2 is too fast. Did they change something? No.
Do the same developers tell the people that SC2 is too fast now and that is the reason why in Stormgate units have more life? Yes, they do. So they tell us, what I have told them for about 15 years. They must be really smart.
I think you can't just count the "quantity" of buffs, but the quality of them. The zerg buffs seem to reduce the early game stall/stagger strats with mass queens, while offloading the defensive/offensive needs the queen provided for to structures aka sunk costs if not used unlike queens, and 25 mineral hatch reduction means faster expansion which is microseconds for 3rd base but takes away a little bit from early game prowess. I still think they need creep changes.
The other races got considerable timing changes, that increased cost on queen added witht he blue flame change is going to be meaningful, same with liberator timings vs zerg.. I think there's a lot of potential
overall I read it as a reduction to the unstoppable force lategame strats vs more midgame abilities, more emphasis on micro etc
The liberator change is a massive buff. Due to the increased attack radius, the true reduction in range is only 0.75.
Naw man it's a pretty big nerf. Liberators will now be targettable and focus-fired by any anti-air unit. Just step forward, all focus fire and the liberator is dead. You lose one relatively low-cost unit, he loses an entire liberator.
Especially since most map makers were adding in anti-liberator features anyway. Yes, it's good that the stupid abusable stuff is gone, but all that really does is free up creativity. Liberators got stronger.
@@d0k0night .75 range nerf to liberator is barely a nerf, especially compared to the huge aoe buff they got in return.
@@d0k0nightdid you even read? Libs get increased radius, which is also increases its range by 1.25. so while it loses the 2 range upgrade, it got 1.25 more range from the increase radius thus only losing 0.75 range in total.
But what people don't realize is that libs now have 1.25 more range straight from the starport without the need for any upgrades. That is a massive buff!!! Not to mention the radius is in all directions, not just from the front. Units will have a harder time trying to flank libs too.
On top of that, tempests also lost 1 range against air units. Compared to libs overall 0.75 range NERF Vs tempest 1 range NERF, tempests are now at a 0.25 range deficit Vs Libs compared to before.
@@skychaos87 You need Advanced Ballistics for the +1.25 radius. Seems like a buff to me and not forget that they get affected by Smart Servos lol
I’ll be interested to see how an oracle showing up with 100 more energy on its initial rush might feel. I kinda think people could be underestimating how hard that could be to deal with
Literally only matters on low levels of player skill - issue at high level is never energy, it's damage from queens, spores, etc...The whole stated purpose of this patch is to buff protoss at higher levels, not lower levels.
Spore DPS is going to ruin and shutdown all Oracle harass.
I stopped watching SCII pro games bc only 2 races at highest level
and toss destroying ladder XD
yep toss probably have some issue at top lev but i notice that maybe zerg/terran players are just better
I see few zerg/terran who can play toss and still be top 10-20 toss XD but i see 0 toss who can be top 10-20 terran/zerg
@@piodd4 i dont watch pro scII anymore so i dont care
Thank god these clowns can't "balance" SC1 since it no longer gets any changes.
Another patch, Ghosts still not nerfed and remain the most broken OP unit in the entire game. Also Protoss got shafted yet again, despite the patch trying to make it more viable. Amazing... Oh and @ArtosisTV shame on you for failing to distinguish between Serral and to a much lesser extent the other 3 Zerg Horsemen(Reynor, Rogue and Dark) and literally all other Zerg players including pros like Ragnarok(now Shin), Lambo, Elazer, etc, who actually won very few tournaments. Compare that to Terran and you have Maru as a massive outlier but than you have many more Terran players(TY, Cure, Byun, Gumiho, Bunny, HeroMarine, etc) who win tournaments on a pretty consistent basis. That is to say it's not Zerg as a race that's overpowered(not for a long time since the many, many, many, nerfs it suffered over the years) but rather the 4 Zerg Horsemen specifically and chiefly among them Serral. Take Serral out of the equation and suddenly Zerg didn't win nearly as many tournaments. Take Maru out of the equation and Terran still wins the majority of tournaments...
No one cares about balance on the lower levels. People are bad and skill difference is why people win effectively every game.
Need to balance the top players so that it is actually the skill and not the imbalance that determines who wins. Protoss is by far the worst race and needs to be buffed a lot. I stopped watching because I was tired of seeing Protoss lose everything even when the Protoss player was playing better.
agreed
yeah its alot of fun losing to a-move 60 apm protoss in masters
@@zacharynixon7968 This :D
terran is the weakest. buff terran
You are not correct. There are two things that need balancing. Skill ceiling and skill floor. While it is of most importance to balance the top level play, skill floor is also important. If you need a much lower skill to succeed against much more skilled opponents then it doesn't matter that the top players can still dismantle your strategy. If all you have to do is set up a cheap unit whereas enemy has to spend a lot of effort to deal with it then it is a big balance difference even at the high level. Even pros can mess up against a disruptor shot or get a group of units wiped by a widow mine. It happens when they couldn't focus enough on controlling units. Low effort strategies simply cannot be too good.
Protoss has never been a real race to me in probably 10 years. It feels more like a dlc joke race. Also how about we go back to starting with 6 workers so we actually have BUILDS?
god please no
Finally someone who remembers the good old days. When they went from 6 to 12 workers the game was destroyed
It was good up until 2018.
When spectating the games they already jump to like 2:30 in to show the parts people should begin caring about. Adding how many more minutes into games that no one wants to see, maybe play but probably not?
@@kmurphy0620 just look at brood war. impactful early skirmishes with tiny amounts of units where micro is everything. amazing to watch and play. earlygame sc2 is boring because nothing impactful is happening.
31:47 the deafening silence
Protoss got an ability to recharge 100 energy for 1 unit and has a cooldown of 1 minute for that ability.
Don't forget terrans already have this same spell, but reversed and better. It kills 100 energy and 100 shields in an AREA without cooldown.
Of course 1 is from a basic structure that you can have from the start of the game and the other is a high tech unit, but still, it is just dumb that we traded that battery overcharge for a cheap reversed emp with cooldown
This "balance council" proves that being a top rank player, does not mean they are smart and know how game mechanics work. It just means they have better multitask control and faster decision making skills then others do. They just learned it better/practiced more
This coucil will be the end of whats left of SC2
hate to break it to you but sc2 was dead when the very first game came out aka wings of liberty. game feels nothing like starcraft, so many soulless cash grab decisions and unfaithful adaptations.
That's always been an issue with RTS. It's supposed to be strategy (and it is to some extent, especially at pro levels where APM is somewhat equal and therefore less of a factor) but you can be dumb as a rock but if you practice the shit out of the game like a mindless drone until you have high APM then you will get to a high rank just by brute forcing people with your APM, even if your strategy is ass
Well yeah of course, is every high level athlete a genius? nope.
@@soldier22881 LMAO a bw enjoyer has joined the channel !
stop watchking kdrama bro, this balance council proves that they have a superior IQ than diamond league retired old twats
As a new sc2 player, I’m just pumped they’re still playing with balance
You do not want your strategy game to get still with one playstyle. You want once a whine change what is the best strategy so players need to adapt and the game will stay fresh
Just replace disruptor with reaver at that point xD never understood why they made ruptor when reaver do the same things but better
This patch is so bad, make the weakest race even weaker and buff the strongest. WTF
The "nerf" to Liberator range is actually just 0.75, since the radius got increased by 1.25. Meaning it's still going to be a hassle for map builders to take into consideration...
7:50 Damage point is the point in the attack cycle where the damage actually happens. Lower damage point = damage happens earlier. This does not change the overall attack speed, so dps is unchanged, but it does affect how responsive a unit is when microing.
Best example is actually an Age of Empires 2 example, the Mangudai vs the Cavalry Archer. Mangudai used to have a damage point of effectively zero, meaning they would fire their arrows INSTANTLY, while cavalry archers would have a wind-up before firing, so despite having very similar attack speeds the mangudai would be able to fire and run FAR better than normal cav archers.
Yes, but this number is very confusing on units with a projectile time. It's not actually the point where damage occurs, it's the point where damage COULD occur if the units were on top of each other.
More core issue is Protoss just doesn't have anywhere near the same threat to Terran bases that Terran have toward protoss base throughout the game. Hero does spectacular gymnastics trying to eek out wins but T can play mmm all game at all levels and things are just seemless. Nerfing protoss unit damage is particularly bad. Their harass is annoying whereas mmm drop will at least get med dmg and might just end the game.
If the mothership can still be abducted, nothing will change with that thing
Well better learn how to feedback.
yeah but a good mothership is a bad idea. if you make it legit then other races need a hero unit. might as well just leave it bad. you can make it unabductable i dont care cos it still just dies easily to corruptor.
@@zergu-yf3gd They do have hero units, marines and queens.
The queen nerf is offset entirely by the hatchery cost reduction. You’re getting that 2nd and 3rd hatchery down that much faster, allowing you to mine resources more quickly, easily compensating for the 25 mineral increase to Queens. Those other buffs to zerg are wholly unnecessary (although the hydra/infestor ones look good).
I'm so glad brood war never got patched
Needs to be patched, certain situations Protoss builds vs Terran have no counter
Yup, bw is better off without changes.
@@bobagowoof *The only things that could possibly be patched in Broodwar are:*
1. Make Consume give 25 energy instead of 50.
2. Make Scouts cheaper.
3. Make Spawn Broodlings only require 125 energy instead of 150 (it's just a worse irradiate and takes WAY too long to get ready).
4. Give Ghosts +5 damage (they are literally never ever ever ever used in ladder, +5 dmg would make them _slightly_ less useless)
5. _Maybe_ give the Firebats +1 armor (since they're Terran's only melee option against Dark Swarm and _should_ be better vs speedlots).
And those are me really boiling it down because honestly, it wouldn't change much it would just balance the game a tiny, tiny bit.
@@StudioMod I'd give spore colonies bonus damage vs biological so zvz has a chance to develop past muta vs muta
@@StudioMod You could argue that Valks should do splash damage against interceptors since they do against literally *every* other air unit and they're the exception for some reason + it might actually give Terran an answer to cross spawn Nexus first carrier builds basically being unbeatable.
Im going to design an rts with only disruptors as the unit type and call aRt TS after you dad.
10:15 never noticed anyone talking about this - you see Immortals doing 'too much damage' so they get nerfed heavily. So... Marine marauder? Ghost? Lurker?? When protoss has one decent unit it gets nerfed but what about the rest of the games units 'doing too much damage'
The council hates protoss. Just like the blizz balance team that came before them.
@@thefalsehero A more charitable read is that they had to keep gateway units pathetically weak and inefficient because of the mobility of the warp prism... And kept that up for 10 years instead of just nerfing the damn prism and buffing zealot/stalker!
...And it's not like Medivacs and Nydus aren't just warp prism with extra steps anyways yet their ground armies aren't balanced around it
The pro toss players are like "I see what you're trying to do, but it's really not a buff. Which it's not. None of this helps toss.
Buff protoss: mothership is doong splash damage now
sounds like the balance council consists of 7 terrans 2 zergs and 1 scared little protoss
fr we should know who is on it so we can at least deduce what is going on
No one was able to deal the last blow and kill off SC2 completely but the balance council said hold my beer and they're on a mission.
This Balance Council is truly the most pathetic and incompetent balancing effort I have ever seen in 20 years of playing multiplayer video games
At this point, I'm just convinced the Balance Council just outright hate protoss, and they hate low-level protoss in particular, basically any P form Masters and below has been seriously fucked over by this patch if it goes through.
Protoss has a 54% winrate on the ladder against T btw and honestly I don't think this patch is gonna affect that much. Quit complaining.
nah they just want zerg to be op, and zerg has always been op. brood lord meta in wings of liberty, overpowered caster like infestor and lets not forget swarm host meta in hots.
@@Ivhen win rate don't say too much becouse machmaking "MAKE IT close to 50 % "
many toss at ladder just have too big MMR becouse toss is easy below master 1
@@piodd4 PvT in master is 56% winrate for toss after 36567 games. In Gm it's 53% winrate for toss, 63% in NA (LOL).
Of course toss is favored in non pro level.
@@Ivhen yes its. and i wanna said that is even more favored than winrate show that.
Becouse if you have 50%+ winrate (and you are not at the "tail of distribiution" )
you get better and better opponets till you lose .
So toss is even more favored but machmaking (mmr system etc) make it less obviuse becouse its kind of "force 50% win rate "
To balance protos its super hard because they have poorly designed OP units like Disruptor ruining it for entire race, the only option is to remove disruptor & design an effecient unit
It feels like they’re just changing random stuff to change it. Giving balance responsibility to pros instead of devs was a mistake imo
for sure. this would never allow new player to become pro or challenger grandmaster because pros would always nerf new strats what new players come up with and buff the strats they are already using to maintain their position.
@@wiceorc5105 thats very cynical man if we get the right people on the council we are chilling ppl like pig and harstem are not gonna ruin the game to help themselves yknow. get the ones that are willing to do that the hell out.
@@zergu-yf3gd i decided 13 years ago (during the times of WoL), that i would let same thing happen with sc2 what happened with wc3 (burnout). So instead of just ravaging into my way into stars I just chill at the low mmr masters and propably quit the game for good. I am sorry but I believe this is for the best for all of the community.
I just met a guy couple days ago and he sayed that he hated me and the game and I knew just why. Overally people are just exhausted and tired. And actually I never encounter such speak in the game before even I have played 20 years.
This why I am stressed with the patches because they make me naturally more interest of the game when I should now slowly slide away just like what I planned.
“Let’s nerf turtling!”
*buffs Terran and Zerg static D*
Terran should have to upgrade siege mode !
The balance council is corrupt. Match fixing my proxy. Something starcraft players have tried to execute more than once in different ways.
The words they use shows they are Bias to terran and zerg.
Protoss is so frustrating to play against. - corrupt design council
Terran and zerg dont have an equal mechanic as protoss so its not fair. - corrupt design council
They complain about protoss showing there is no voice that matters in that room for protoss and the a certain level of design goal is to make fighting against protoss as easy as possible.
Where's protoss mechanic for heave instant vision across the map with. where's protoss flying structures? wheres a useful aoe for protoss that isnt easily countered within 30 seconds? wheres protoss method of repairing health to full? an advanced race who busts a joint and is like "oh this is my life now"
The trash level balance team complains about not having what protoss has, and how frustrating it is to fight the few things that protoss has. but when it comes to the other race they shadow buff them on nearly every nerf and pat themselves on the back like they have a certain level of IQ. they are unevolved and corrupt and they need to be held accountable at some point or this will keep happenning.
TLDR. Corrupt balance council finds it unfair if they ever lose to a protoss player. their inferiority complex is massive, they arent good enough to be any good so have to balance the game to suit personal directives.
can't even figure out who the problem is since we don't know who is on the council. can deduce that its terran players cos they are the ones who never see their own OP stuff and always cry about other races. has any terran yet acknowledged that widow mines were op? i haven't seen it. they want it permacloaked 1shotting 50 lings still. is what it is.
I dont understand what protoss is supposed to do against the terran bio stutterstep a-move balls
Its been this way for ages, MMM in theory is countered by AoE damage, but all AoE options for Protoss have huge counters on the terran side (vikings for colossi, ghosts for templar). Also the average protoss ground army is completely devoured by siege tanks/lurkers, hence why skytoss was pretty much the only half decent thing to be doing past the opening minutes of the game.
I've quit grinding the ladder seriously on the patch where they made Adepts leave a marine/scv with 1 hp after two shots. That was such a disgusting biased nerf for that specific matchup that I've lost all faith in the balance of the game going forward. Adepts on launch were crazy strong, but there could be another way to adress that other than the 1 hp bullshit we got.
@@lincolnreinert1205 protoss finally had an decent answer with distruptor but then council went "toss always spam distruptor mid-late game" hit them with nerf every patch and still goes "still distruptor all the time gotta nerf them more" without seeing why toss have to go distruptor all the time. (To be fair I fucking hate distruptor but Toss cant do shit without them because other units are just too bad for their cost).
@@allhailderpfestor4839 I agree with you in everything you Said.
I think it would be awesome to have Stalkers' firing pattern changed. Like... instead of twin shots at the current firing intervals... have them shoot single shots at twice the rate with half damage per shot. Total DPS would be the same over time, but improves their top-end stutterstep APM ceiling. Maybe even half damage with a little less than twice the shooting rate... would need testing. But I think Stalker stutter stepping feels really weak against Marines AND it contributes to the typical "Protoss is EZ cuz look how low APM" argument, since the APM thing is actually a result of the number of different activated abilities needed and the gating on Protoss units' firing rate.
Lol, what are talking about. There tons of options.
1) you can die.
2) you can leave the game before that.
3) you can hide pylons everywhere on the map.
Roach all ins early game will be deadly against toss especially with the immortal and battery nerf. That’s already strong if you prepare for it. Literally so dumb.
More energy on a sentry won’t work(ravagers) and if the opponent has 10+ roaches/ravagers an oracle isn’t going to do much. Really dissapointed all around as a toss main.
My idea for nerfing the ghost:
Microbial shroud nullifies snipe damage.
Mothership provides passive aura that nullifies EMP damage to units within range.
As for the Queen, just make it limited to 2 per hatchery. No need to nerf Zerg's only early game defensive strategy. Just prevent massing it.
Agree with this one
Wouldn't 2 queens/hatchery just mean that a rush to like 3 banshees or 4 oracles is an instant gg. 2 Queens cant defend against that and if they group you can just move to another base to kill those workers instead because queens are slow and don't fly and all maps have ramps and chokepoints that force the queens to take the long way round. Seeing mass queens every game is boring but realistically zerg needs a hatchery tier anti-air option if they were to nerf that. Or i guess they could nerf it and buff its anti air attack. Also it's not just banshee or oracle, anything that flies is a problem.
@@jajaxaxa I feel like limiting the number of queens you can have would make it much safer to straight up buff them. Increasing their anti air attack wouldn't be much of an issue anymore.
I know that everyone wants the queen niche to be filled by other options however at this point I believe it is safe to say that it is here to stay and as such we should look at balancing around its existence.
EMP should also have a diminishing effect from the center.
These would be super cool changes. Focusing on counterplay instead of just nerfing and buffing is clever
I think every change on its own is reasonable. if it works together? lets see.
I still think its weird how extremly powerful the ghost is.
recent major tournament was like 60% terran, and terran is buffed the hardest.
nope its all zerg man, swarm host infestor broodlords zero counter
@@soldier22881 lol, those are all sub par units, all countered very easily. Thors beat broods laughably bad. Ghosts beat all 3 single handedly. BC likewise. Liberators likewise. Vikings likewise. I think a very large broodlord force probably beats marines, but that's about it. Swarm host is the hardest unit in the game to make viable. Literally just kite any unit to counter swarm hosts.
@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd That dude its living in 2013 or some shit, he still thinks those units are meta
@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd battle cruisers take forever, thors are incredibly expensive, infestor mind control thor easily. ghosts get viper pulled easily, liberators take time to deploy, zerg have corruptors to easily delete terran air. brood lord prevent ground units from ever moving. swarm host literaly dominated zerg meta and is still strong summon and forget unit.
@@llamadelreyii3369 he admitted in another comment that he doesn't even play starcraft 2 and just plays brood war and likes to troll SC2 players since he hates SC2 for taking a large chunk of playerbase
34:40 "this is madness"
Madness? THIS IS SPARTA!
Protoss only wins with strongest and most accurate execution, meanwhile MMM-ghost ball just auto mitigates EVERY SINGLE thing in the protoss aresenal rhat levels the playing field.
Sheesh, cant they recognize that? The ghost needs to be nerfed.
And, did they forget why battery overcharge existed in the first place??? Becausr toss just dies to retarted crap in the early game all the time. It was only to allow us to survive long enough to get going.
Batteries are a survival strategy for the early game.
Now we are just going to get 3raxed, spine rushed, or roach all inned every single game again.
Thx idiots at the "balance" team.
Lets make a race that requires many more control groups require even more control group cycling to deal with the a-move stutter ball.
they cant nerf the ghost or EMP without making terran dogshit because its the only answer terran has to spellcasters.
@@TheChaosNovathe solution’s really simple and been proposed a dozen times. make it so you can’t have 20 ghosts. make them cost 3 supply. or, nerf the ghost and shift the power over to the completely-forgotten-about raven.
@@ZergIingLover meh when we go back to mass investor bullshit again and Zerg has 100% tourney win rate I don’t think it’ll go over well
@@TheChaosNova ah yes, because that’s what’s gonna happen by making ghosts cost 3 supply lol
@@TheChaosNova I think there could be some safe shifts to Ghosts (i.e. 3 supply, making them Light units, which they TOTALLY should be. They're smaller than Marines! And yeah, something so EMP doesn't fully crush Shields AND Energy AND cloaking... it should be one first THEN the other and breaking cloaking hurts SO bad for the units it affects, especially since they now have zero shields or energy)
However, I think one VERY fair thing would be to bring the visibility and audio cues of EMP much more obvious. When fighting, you're normally looking at the enemy units you're targeting, not your own units, and there is almost nothing to grab your attention when EMP goes off mid-fight. If it's the ONLY thing that happens, say at max-range or something, yeah, it's a bit easier. But it's awful losing a lategame army's energy and half it's health and not knowing what happened until you watch the Replay.
As a Terran player I actually like the idea of punishing ebay blocks and supply depot blocking.
Shouldn't be able to block and bunker rush an opponent from the jump without making a sacrifice
yes that was a good change for sure, no more bunker with 1 reaper in it for the lols
Balance Council
More like Terran council
Just stop pretending stupid and making it like terran is only problem in this game
zerg hive more like. terran is still the weakest and easiest to beat, protoss still op and a moves with no skill and psi storm spams
@@soldier22881 zerg=snipe spam
Protoss = emp spam
But yeah zerg gets buffed in the entirety and protoss gets nerfed
@@soldier22881 Clem literally win 5-0 against Serral.
@@copter2000 well then serral needs to get good
I think this patch may have been for not just the highest level of play but also for different levels. There is a HUGE difference between how Toss performs on the professional levels vs the lower levels especially w skytoss. Many of the nerfs i think were targeting that, which sadly doesn't help herO or other pro toss players
yeah why is it that toss crushes gm ladder but cant wina tournament. is it just because if you know their style you can counter it? but on ladder you dunno who it is most of the time? i dunno
sc2 was destroyed after Wings of Liberty and it keeps getting worse.
lmao
A lot of protoss players going back to BW
The absolutely drug fueled balancing is why I quit this game. I will never understand how they can f up Protoss over and over.
If the SCII balance team somehow could change SCI:
-Now you need 2 Gantrithor on Overmind to finish the mission
-Dragoon Patching Nerf
-Pylon now needs energy field to be warped
I think the main reason sc2 is so defensive is there is no early game. You start with too many workers which makes limits creativity in openers. Terran baicly can't kill Protoss or Zerg in the early games so what do you expect.
Yep, starting with 12 workers ruined the early game completely, but nobody wants to talk abouut or even acknowledge it.
This was one of the worst changes to the game. The general trend started even before that (like making the barracks require a supply depot) and it severely limits the early options and leads to boring samey games.
The fact that they're still making new additions to this game is insane. Gotta give them credit for that
get harstem off the council lmao give me a blind bronze player that never played the game instead
isint harstem a protoss player though?
@@soldier22881 Harstem the neural'd protoss strikes again lol
@@leaf241 i dont get it. did he switch or something?
Harstem is a Zerg apologist
why are you blaming Harstem for this unless something changed that I missed He hasn't been on the council since before last patch
It will be interesting to see what the final numbers are after the PTR period, but I agree that the FULL heal on the depot is massive, maybe to counter baneling busts, while the hatchery cost buff will help zerg expand faster than they already do, too...
Maybe have the depot get additional health, but let it retain damage while getting the max increase and heal only the difference in how much max health it gained?