Oh please, don’t act like you don’t like putting effort into these projects!😂 I usually quit after the first failure. You keep going and going… Enjoyable video, thanks.
From memory, Kodak used to manufacture a 35mm print film stock for making colour positives from colour negatives, which is processed in a dedicated chemistry. C-41 chemicals are designed to retain orange dye (Yellow + Magenta) in clear areas of the image. You will need to find the formula for colour positive print developer, or at a pinch, use chemicals for processing colour paper. That blue-grey tint you are seeing in the base of B&W neg film is called "Anti Piping" and its purpose is to prevent light fogging a 35mm film cassette foolishly loaded into a camera in broad daylight. DO NOT DO THIS. Light piping is caused by total internal reflection, which is how optical fibres work.
kodak 2383 is NOT a color negative film, it is a color POSITIVE print film (basically slide film but for movies). it's native process is ECP-2 (eastman color positive), which means that you would've still have cross-processed it even if you developed in ECN-2 chemistry.
Just saw this, and it's very similar to something I've been planning to do for a long time. I'm working on it right now. The issue you're having is registration, i.e. the exposures aren't lining up. My solution is this: use subtractive color mixing, not additive. Tint your negatives cyan, magenta, and yellow, and stack them on top of each other on a light table. Shoot through them on clear base color film and process as negative. May require some filtration to compensate for color casts.
I knew you were going to have registration issues the moment I started the video. It really makes you appreciate the effort that went into getting three-strip Technicolor (in-camera negatives and IB prints!) to look as great as it did.
Wonder if you could do this "DIY Aerochrome" process using a colour enlarger and RA-4 process rather than colour film? Colour print paper would definitely be a way to get a truly neutral base for the colour part, and it'd be a lot easier to get good registration of the film for multiple exposures if you can just put the paper somewhere light-tight and line things up with the film, enlarger and easel exactly on some predefined marks between each exposure. Getting the colour balance right would be *really* hard though!
This has been on my list to try for so long. I'd assume it'll work, but like you said alignment and color balance will be tricky. I do hope to try this someday.
Well TEEECHNICALLY Kodak 2383 is ECP-2 process, not ECN-2. The only difference is the developer, which uses the CD-2 agent instead of CD-3 (or CD-4 in C-41). No idea if that's what makes it yellow though.
Something about a big fail style episode makes me happy. I'm working on a video right now for my channel where I basically realized the episode idea was a terrible idea. Keep it up. You just got a new subscriber via your r/analogcommunity share. Cheers.
Adox Scala 50 is IR sensitive, has a clear base and with the scala kit it can be make into a positive so using it would skip the b and w positive step...
really interesting video! I've personally looked into duplicating film for archival purposes (being able to have a high resolution copy of your film in the case of something crazy happening would be awesome), but most of the literature I've been able to find is about cinema film duplication-- I haven't found anyone doing it at home. I'd be interested to see what what kind of degradation happens when duplicating a negative to a fine, slow film. Another thing I'd be interested in seeing in regards to tricolor B&W film (and I know this isn't really what you're going for) is combining them digitally, specifically so you can align them perfectly and do some image averaging. I've only seen image averaging be used to reduce digital noise, not reduce grain, so I'd be really curious to see what that would look like!
See if you can find some Kodak 4111-designed specifically for making correctly colored transparencies from orange masked negatives. I don't have any in 35mm but I'd send you a sheet in 4x5 if you want. :)
That's cool, I never knew that stuff existed. It's a bummer they stopped making it. And thanks for the offer, but I currently don't have any use for 4x5 film, so it would just sit around.
Very interesting video! The pictures from the Kodak 2383 look like redscale film. So you could give it a another try if you respool this film and shoot it from the other side if there is no remjet layer. You could use the sprocket holes to align the different frames. If you shoot from a tripod and align the 3 frames by the sprocket holes the coverage should be exactly the same.
I did a bit of research on pin register cameras. Not sure if that's what I would need, but they're either rare or expensive so I tossed that idea. Maybe theres another way to align via sprockets, but I haven't done any further research on it.
I have some Vericolor 5072, which is supposed to be a C-41 process negative-of-a-negative "slide film". The only problem with it is that it expired in 1990. If you're interested in a roll, send me a DM.
Great experiments! I'm sure you know, but in the movie industry, internegative, copy film and final print processes have been optimised and used for years - you may find some helpful suggestions there. I understand a major problem is control of contrast - hence the use of special, slow, very low-grain inter film. Since these are impossible/difficult to find, I believe pre-flashing is used to control the contrast, so you could investigate that. Registration could be achieved with pins (are you relying on sprocket holes?) - and I presume colour cast from the base with correction filters. Good luck if you find the inspiration to continue.
When it comes to cinema film and its processes I'm definitely out of my element. I probably should look into the proper procedures that'll probably illuminate a lot. And about registration, I just eyeballed it. I couldn't rely on the sprockets because the camera doesnt have perfectly aligned spacing. I also looked into pin registration cameras but they're expensive and hard to find, plus I don't know how they work so I dont know if it'll even help me. This is just my first pass at this, hopefully I'll get this dialed in soon. Thanks!
I wonder if a blue filter would mitigate some of the excess orange from the film base of the frame you are trying to duplicate. Somehow remove enough orange/yellow that the orange film base of the now positive will compensate?
I am curious if you could use Aerocolor for this. I know it's available repacked as Santacolor. It would also be neat to see that cross processed in E6.
kodak 2383 is not ecn-2 film (eastman color negative) it is Ecp-2 film (eastman color print). it uses the ecp2 process with CD 2 color developing agent different from CD 3 in the ecn-2 process. plus it is designed for illumination by artificial lights so it's easy to get a process drift out shift from the controlled color print process. But good work and good experimentation. it's important and all that other stuff is just details especially when you are actually doing the steps. thanks for the hard work.
Why not Try using something like Aerocolor IV negative film, The film lacks an orange base in the negatives. If it's there's still orange if you photo a normal negative with it, try taking photo's with Aerocolor then photograph those with more Aerocolor to get a clean positive.
I feel like if you could get your hands on some Silberra, then you might get positives without the orange mask. I don't know if it would only work with Silberra on Silberra or if it would work when taking pictures of other color negative photos.
I’ve read that the layers of Kodak 2383 were made like this so it would give the best results when printing a negative on it (the original use case). Please try your original idea (printing negatives on film to give positives) with Kodak 2383. It’s exactly what it’s made for and at the current prices of slide film it’d probably be cheaper to buy hand rolled Vision3 films and make a positive on 2383 than buy slide film. Plus you would still have a negative that you could print from (granted that Vision3 films aren’t ideal for printing)
Hey maybe you should try to use a colour filter to cancel out the red filmbase. Start with a colour test picture and try complementray colours as filters. That could work...
Did you consider trying to expose the color negative through a blue filter to remove the orange color and make a color positive without the orange tint?
This probably wouldn't work. The orange mask on C-41 isn't an additional layer added to the film but leftover unreacted colour couplers. The more exposure a section of film recieves the more colour couplers will react with developed silver staining that part of the negative with the desired tint. This results in areas with more exposure being less orange and areas with less exposure being more orange. Its not a single uniform tint, part of the reason inverting C-41 scans is a complete pain in the butt; you can't just divide away the color sampled at the rebate. Using a filter of any colour would just make the film more of that color and still orange in areas that recieved less exposure.
I feel like this would be a lot easier with 4x5. I'm sure you can get some IR sensitive b&w 4x5 sheet film from Rollei or something. And I'm petty sure DR5 can make positives for you or you can try it yourself. It would be a lot easier registration in the darkroom trying to copy them onto Provia 4x5 sheets. Plus then you'd have a IR positive 4x5! I kinda want to try that. Also, could you do the same thing but put 3 tri-chrome exposures on color paper?
Yeah I've been meaning to try this on 4x5, I just have to get the shutter fixed on my Crown. Color IR on 4x5 does sound damn cool. And after these results I'm fairly confident that it'll work on color paper. I'd also like to try that, but I don't have much experience with RA4 printing.
If you want to take another stab at this, maybe you could start with adox scala, since it is a b&w slide film with sensitivity into the near infrared, that way you can at least skip the b&w copy step for some better visual fidelity and less pain, though the idea that someone else suggested, to go from b&w negatives onto ra4 paper sounds interesting too.
i absolutely refuse to buy proper trichrome filters, so i'm considering shooting an entire frame each of red, blue, and green on slide film to make makeshift filters. do you think it'll work?
It would probably work, I cant say it'll get you accurate or consistent results, but you should get the effect. Another option would be to get color lighting gels. They come in sheets and do an alright job.
I thought about it and theres a few issues. Some of my trichrome negs have slight shifting between frames caused my advancing the camera too hard, camera not tightened on the plate, or tripod head being a bit loose. I tried using a grid screen as well, but it's hard to account for the X,Y positions plus you have to take rotation into account. Also the FE2 has a 98% viewfinder coverage so if I had corners I'll end up cropping in a bit creating slightly smaller negatives. With that said I was thinking about printing each image on a transparency and placing that over the viewfinder. Obviously I would also need to change cameras. No idea if that'll work, but that's where I'm headed with this.
i had to remember which video you said something about clear base c41 film and it was this one!!! i just got a couple of rolls of sfl aerocolor 125 (kodak aerocolor iv respool??) and it has a clear base!! i have no idea if you're gonna try this again but yea in case you ever need another clear base c41 film
Infrared sensitivity is a chemical property of the emulsion. I understand the emulsions of the films you used don't have that property. Changing the methods of exposure and the motives don't change that emulsion chemistry! Where did you see infrared come into play?
Dude, rad stuff. Any chance reverse-rolling your clear base Kodak cinema film would help compensate for the yellow tinting you got? Kinda like shooting redscale, same process of reversing which side of the film is facing the lens. Or is the problem more that the film doesn't contain the yellow layer needed to block the blue light from leeching into red/green layers? Even then... a #12 yellow "minus blue" filter or something could help balance the colors out, potentially without needing to even reverse spool the film. If you could get that to work, you could potentially get back down to a single "copying" process instead of two. Besides that it seems like your biggest challenge is registration. I don't have any specific ideas, but if you can conceptualize a jig or tool that would help line things up perfectly from frame to frame (perhaps using sprocket holes), I'd be more than happy to CAD and 3D print it for you, and mail it off. Another idea if you're trying to recreate aerochrome is to remove the camera and lens from the copying equation entirely, and just use a dichro head and an enlarger to "contact print" the film from one roll onto the other. Once again registration is probably the biggest challenge. But you could have a ton of fine-tuned control over color balance that way, and less optical weakness in the copying process. One last thing... if you ever get any ideas about how one might recreate Cibachrome, let me know. My biggest regret in all of photography is not getting into the hobby until after there was no real viable way to get a great color positive print out of slide film. I know there are some reverse processed RA-4 solutions, but they don't really look very good to me, certainly not like Cibachrome.
I like the idea of "redscaling" the film. I would assume it would help having the blue layer first, but I don't know how much excess blue light would still leak through. Obviously there will be some leakage otherwise companies wouldn't add an extra yellow layer if it didn't do anything. This might be worth trying. Next, about the registration. I thought about using the sprocket holes, but while my camera has good frame spacing it's not perfect. I would need some kind of pin registration camera if I were to go down that route. My next approach is to print an outline version of a frame on transparency film and place in above the focusing screen. It would require me to do this for every frame, but I think that should solve for most of the registration errors. It wouldn't be perfect, but my original trichrome negs aren't perfect either. Regarding the color infrared positives. If I were to try this again on E6, I would have to shoot fresh trichromes and develop it as a positive with the Adox Scala reversal kit or DR5. I'm not sure how well Rollei or Ilford IR films would handle the reversal process, but if it's usable that would eliminate an additional copy step. And regarding Cibachrome I'm not well versed in printing, I've only made a dozen darkroom prints in my life. Although I do want to do more, I just need to find space to set up an enlarger and such. It's also good to know you can do CAD and 3d printing, I might have to pick your brain about some things. Thanks!
@@atticdarkroom Well if you figure out a space for an enlarger and can come up with a way to get it from Utah to wherever you are... I have my trusty Omega B-22 that I'm not using anymore. It's a fantastic enlarger for up to 6x6 film. Haven't had the heart to sell it since I upgraded to a large format enlarger, but it would do my heart good to know it went to a good home where it won't just gather dust. LMK if at any point in the future you want it.
@@atticdarkroom regarding Rollei in Scala: Retro 400s @ ISO 200 looks great in Scala process, first dev 10 minutes @20C. Rollei Infrared, Retro 80s, Superpan 200 and RPX 25 are all similar enough that they should work too.
I used Cibachrome Professional a lot in the 1970s and '80s and it is superb.Colours are really beautiful and even framed prints are still just as vivid today as when I made them. I have a 3 colour set of rolls of German made carbon/carbro paper in cyan, magenta and yellow. Make me an offer? Same azo dyes as Cibachrome.
If used a blank ECN-2 or C-41 negative(as in just the orange base with no image) and you placed it over the film your photographing with the SLR while 'reverse trichroming' it, then maybe you could achieve correct colour on the Kodak 2383, if that didn't work you could place the blank film base before the filter on the lens(as in lens, film base, colour filter).
Hello!! A week ago I discovered your channel, I can only say ¡bravo! I find what you do fascinating and you have discovered me some other process that had not crossed my mind How do you get black and white slides? I mean, what process do you use to develop the agfa copex fast reel (or any black and white slide reel like Fomapan R100) and get the slide? Do you use E-6 process? Thank you so much! Y disculpa si he cometido alguna falta al escribir estas lineas, pero como buen Español que soy tengo un nivel de ingles un poco lamentable..
I just photographed some negatives. Think DSLR scanning, but with film. There's definitely better ways to do this (namely B&W reversal) but I don't have the knowhow or the patience to figure that out right now.
have you ever tried Trichroming some BW infrared film, make BW slides out if it, and copy those three with filters onto color slide film?? that removes all the mask issues and could potentially get you pretty clean "aerochrome" fakes no? i think i wanna try that..
Maybe another quick easy one for you, what if you kept going with the negative of a positive but stuck with the same film each time. Sort of like how if you photo copy a form over and over, it degrades in quality. Would be interesting how far you could take it especially with something with a fine grain like Pan F or something.
@@atticdarkroom I look forward to it! And thanks for sharing these fun experiments. Getting back into film again and have lots of old bulk film to play with. Lots of ideas you've provided to try on it
On the whole color positive infared film thing. Why not try using an ir filter while shooting ektachrome? It should give the same result as real aerochrome
If you're interested it would appear that SantaColor 100 will have a clear base (if that project gets finished.) Edit: It would appear they alredy reached their goal.
You can also try to track down Kodak Aerocolor (not Aerochrome!) as it's a C-41 film with a clear base and is supposedly Santacolor. Analog Resurgence made a video on it.
@@640kiboughttobeenough Yep I was aware of that, I however thought SantaColor would be a better option since it can still be purchased new while you don't really know were the aerocolor you can find comes from. You could also purchase aerocolor from kodak... ...If you buy like 15 000 rolls or something like that.
@@alfepalfe yeah, Santacolor will probably be more accessible, Noah managed to obtain some from a Russian store (rolled down Aerocolor is extremely common here) but the logistics are questionable, especially considering current happenings.
Essentially the same thing as DSLR scanning. A negative holder over a light table. Camera with a macro lens and extension tube pointed straight down on the negative. And take a picture. I used aperture priority and it seemed to do a pretty good job.
I saw it was VISION film and assumed it was ECN-2. Honestly I didnt even realize ECP-2D was a thing. Cinema film processing is way out of my wheelhouse.
Taking a picture on photographic paper and then taking a picture of this negative again on photographic paper to get an acceptable (to the authorities) passport portrait seemed (seems?) to be the "normal" procedure with the so called "Afghan camera"...
Рік тому+1
this is nothing new or revolutionary. Photographers have been doing this for decades.
Sir it's 5 a.m I'm eating a turkey sandwich off a charcuterie board because I can't find a plate and I have a question only a psycho like you can answer...what happens if you microwave film?
We definitely need more crazy, this is almost as crazy as the trichrome the Kodachrome
Tri chrome kodachrome copied onto duplicating film then projected onto provia to create a slide?
Oh please, don’t act like you don’t like putting effort into these projects!😂 I usually quit after the first failure. You keep going and going…
Enjoyable video, thanks.
Thanks! I'm mostly fueled by stubbornness.
The legend returns to fuck up some more film stocks 😎
From memory, Kodak used to manufacture a 35mm print film stock for making colour positives from colour negatives, which is processed in a dedicated chemistry. C-41 chemicals are designed to retain orange dye (Yellow + Magenta) in clear areas of the image. You will need to find the formula for colour positive print developer, or at a pinch, use chemicals for processing colour paper. That blue-grey tint you are seeing in the base of B&W neg film is called "Anti Piping" and its purpose is to prevent light fogging a 35mm film cassette foolishly loaded into a camera in broad daylight. DO NOT DO THIS. Light piping is caused by total internal reflection, which is how optical fibres work.
I binge watched all your videos this morning because I too had nothing better to do. Great content, your channel is definitely underrated.
kodak 2383 is NOT a color negative film, it is a color POSITIVE print film (basically slide film but for movies). it's native process is ECP-2 (eastman color positive), which means that you would've still have cross-processed it even if you developed in ECN-2 chemistry.
Just saw this, and it's very similar to something I've been planning to do for a long time. I'm working on it right now. The issue you're having is registration, i.e. the exposures aren't lining up.
My solution is this: use subtractive color mixing, not additive. Tint your negatives cyan, magenta, and yellow, and stack them on top of each other on a light table. Shoot through them on clear base color film and process as negative. May require some filtration to compensate for color casts.
I knew you were going to have registration issues the moment I started the video. It really makes you appreciate the effort that went into getting three-strip Technicolor (in-camera negatives and IB prints!) to look as great as it did.
That must have taken such a long time!
Oh man, you have no idea. Crazy thing is that there's still a lot more I can do.
Ive developed my own real digital Aerochrome, but watching this makes it feel like such an easy task.
Wonder if you could do this "DIY Aerochrome" process using a colour enlarger and RA-4 process rather than colour film? Colour print paper would definitely be a way to get a truly neutral base for the colour part, and it'd be a lot easier to get good registration of the film for multiple exposures if you can just put the paper somewhere light-tight and line things up with the film, enlarger and easel exactly on some predefined marks between each exposure. Getting the colour balance right would be *really* hard though!
This has been on my list to try for so long. I'd assume it'll work, but like you said alignment and color balance will be tricky.
I do hope to try this someday.
Just discovered your channel. I like the cut of your jib! Keep up the great work :)
Well TEEECHNICALLY Kodak 2383 is ECP-2 process, not ECN-2. The only difference is the developer, which uses the CD-2 agent instead of CD-3 (or CD-4 in C-41). No idea if that's what makes it yellow though.
Something about a big fail style episode makes me happy. I'm working on a video right now for my channel where I basically realized the episode idea was a terrible idea. Keep it up. You just got a new subscriber via your r/analogcommunity share. Cheers.
Thanks! If you enjoy big fails you're in the right place.
@@atticdarkroom I mean, I'm shooting film so I'm obviously leaning into it.
Adox Scala 50 is IR sensitive, has a clear base and with the scala kit it can be make into a positive so using it would skip the b and w positive step...
Interesting. That's good to know. I'll have to pick some up when it's back in stock.
YES! I love seeing you in my sub box! :-)
I binged your channel when I found it! I get really excited every time you post a new video! I'm Really excited on every one of your experiments!
really interesting video! I've personally looked into duplicating film for archival purposes (being able to have a high resolution copy of your film in the case of something crazy happening would be awesome), but most of the literature I've been able to find is about cinema film duplication-- I haven't found anyone doing it at home. I'd be interested to see what what kind of degradation happens when duplicating a negative to a fine, slow film.
Another thing I'd be interested in seeing in regards to tricolor B&W film (and I know this isn't really what you're going for) is combining them digitally, specifically so you can align them perfectly and do some image averaging. I've only seen image averaging be used to reduce digital noise, not reduce grain, so I'd be really curious to see what that would look like!
See if you can find some Kodak 4111-designed specifically for making correctly colored transparencies from orange masked negatives. I don't have any in 35mm but I'd send you a sheet in 4x5 if you want. :)
That's cool, I never knew that stuff existed. It's a bummer they stopped making it.
And thanks for the offer, but I currently don't have any use for 4x5 film, so it would just sit around.
The irony this comment has now
This is one of the best channels on UA-cam. Straight up.
Thank you very much for your video and expensive experimentation! Great vid and great channel man, keep it up ❤
This is the most insane and most amazing thing I have ever seen. Love it!!
this is INSANE i love it
I love your videos so much! And here I am thinking I'm a darkroom expert bc I develop C-41
I often wondered about exactly this. Glad I don't have to waste my time trying it anymore 😉
Very interesting video! The pictures from the Kodak 2383 look like redscale film. So you could give it a another try if you respool this film and shoot it from the other side if there is no remjet layer.
You could use the sprocket holes to align the different frames. If you shoot from a tripod and align the 3 frames by the sprocket holes the coverage should be exactly the same.
I did a bit of research on pin register cameras. Not sure if that's what I would need, but they're either rare or expensive so I tossed that idea.
Maybe theres another way to align via sprockets, but I haven't done any further research on it.
I have some Vericolor 5072, which is supposed to be a C-41 process negative-of-a-negative "slide film". The only problem with it is that it expired in 1990. If you're interested in a roll, send me a DM.
Great experiments! I'm sure you know, but in the movie industry, internegative, copy film and final print processes have been optimised and used for years - you may find some helpful suggestions there. I understand a major problem is control of contrast - hence the use of special, slow, very low-grain inter film. Since these are impossible/difficult to find, I believe pre-flashing is used to control the contrast, so you could investigate that. Registration could be achieved with pins (are you relying on sprocket holes?) - and I presume colour cast from the base with correction filters. Good luck if you find the inspiration to continue.
When it comes to cinema film and its processes I'm definitely out of my element. I probably should look into the proper procedures that'll probably illuminate a lot.
And about registration, I just eyeballed it. I couldn't rely on the sprockets because the camera doesnt have perfectly aligned spacing. I also looked into pin registration cameras but they're expensive and hard to find, plus I don't know how they work so I dont know if it'll even help me.
This is just my first pass at this, hopefully I'll get this dialed in soon.
Thanks!
this is so awesome.
Adox Scala 50 is a b&w positive infrared film,
Hmmm...Interesting....
I wonder if a blue filter would mitigate some of the excess orange from the film base of the frame you are trying to duplicate. Somehow remove enough orange/yellow that the orange film base of the now positive will compensate?
I am curious if you could use Aerocolor for this. I know it's available repacked as Santacolor. It would also be neat to see that cross processed in E6.
What about using blue light to copy the negatives onto other negatives to get rid of some of the orange cast ?
kodak 2383 is not ecn-2 film (eastman color negative) it is Ecp-2 film (eastman color print). it uses the ecp2 process with CD 2 color developing agent different from CD 3 in the ecn-2 process. plus it is designed for illumination by artificial lights so it's easy to get a process drift out shift from the controlled color print process.
But good work and good experimentation. it's important and all that other stuff is just details especially when you are actually doing the steps. thanks for the hard work.
Im so into this channel. Great great work
I think the final images are so cool! It’s not aero chrome, it’s something else entirely
Why not Try using something like Aerocolor IV negative film, The film lacks an orange base in the negatives. If it's there's still orange if you photo a normal negative with it, try taking photo's with Aerocolor then photograph those with more Aerocolor to get a clean positive.
I kinda assumed the orange masks would cancel out within the image when duping c41, but maybe you have to overexpose for the mask
Nice video. However, have you thought about trying to copy negatives with a E-6 film and cross process it in c-41 for a clear negative base?
Have you tried Fuji Film? I seem to recall that the backing was fairly clear.
I feel like if you could get your hands on some Silberra, then you might get positives without the orange mask. I don't know if it would only work with Silberra on Silberra or if it would work when taking pictures of other color negative photos.
this channel without all the self deprivation would honestly be more enjoyable lol
I’ve read that the layers of Kodak 2383 were made like this so it would give the best results when printing a negative on it (the original use case).
Please try your original idea (printing negatives on film to give positives) with Kodak 2383. It’s exactly what it’s made for and at the current prices of slide film it’d probably be cheaper to buy hand rolled Vision3 films and make a positive on 2383 than buy slide film. Plus you would still have a negative that you could print from (granted that Vision3 films aren’t ideal for printing)
Hey maybe you should try to use a colour filter to cancel out the red filmbase. Start with a colour test picture and try complementray colours as filters. That could work...
Did you consider trying to expose the color negative through a blue filter to remove the orange color and make a color positive without the orange tint?
This probably wouldn't work. The orange mask on C-41 isn't an additional layer added to the film but leftover unreacted colour couplers. The more exposure a section of film recieves the more colour couplers will react with developed silver staining that part of the negative with the desired tint. This results in areas with more exposure being less orange and areas with less exposure being more orange. Its not a single uniform tint, part of the reason inverting C-41 scans is a complete pain in the butt; you can't just divide away the color sampled at the rebate. Using a filter of any colour would just make the film more of that color and still orange in areas that recieved less exposure.
@@dereksauer8108 thats insightful. Is this also why he didn’t try a tungsten balanced film to make the positive copy of the first color negatives?
I feel like this would be a lot easier with 4x5. I'm sure you can get some IR sensitive b&w 4x5 sheet film from Rollei or something. And I'm petty sure DR5 can make positives for you or you can try it yourself. It would be a lot easier registration in the darkroom trying to copy them onto Provia 4x5 sheets. Plus then you'd have a IR positive 4x5! I kinda want to try that. Also, could you do the same thing but put 3 tri-chrome exposures on color paper?
Yeah I've been meaning to try this on 4x5, I just have to get the shutter fixed on my Crown. Color IR on 4x5 does sound damn cool.
And after these results I'm fairly confident that it'll work on color paper. I'd also like to try that, but I don't have much experience with RA4 printing.
If you want to take another stab at this, maybe you could start with adox scala, since it is a b&w slide film with sensitivity into the near infrared, that way you can at least skip the b&w copy step for some better visual fidelity and less pain, though the idea that someone else suggested, to go from b&w negatives onto ra4 paper sounds interesting too.
I actually bought some Scala, both the film and the reversal kit. I just need to find the right time to shoot it.
i wonder why you didnt try using blue filters to get rid of the orange cast. am i missing something why this wouldnt work?
I’m obsessed with your videos, great job!
Now I wonder if it’s possible to diy it while it’s being scanned digitally? Someday I will try it!
It's not an Attic darkroom if there isn't an explanation about Ttrichrome photography
My explanations have been getting lazier with each passing video.
man you are fucking I thought about it for a long time but never got around to doing it thank you very much for the video
you alluded that you've already came up with more theories, but did you ever think about introducing filtration to color time the orange mask out?
You should try doing that with color print paper and an enlarger if you have that equipment
i absolutely refuse to buy proper trichrome filters, so i'm considering shooting an entire frame each of red, blue, and green on slide film to make makeshift filters. do you think it'll work?
It would probably work, I cant say it'll get you accurate or consistent results, but you should get the effect.
Another option would be to get color lighting gels. They come in sheets and do an alright job.
Maybe revisit this with kodak aerocolor I think it has a clear base
Ah, this is wild I love it! Could you modify a viewfinder screen in the copy nikon to add a corner mark to help with registration?
I thought about it and theres a few issues. Some of my trichrome negs have slight shifting between frames caused my advancing the camera too hard, camera not tightened on the plate, or tripod head being a bit loose. I tried using a grid screen as well, but it's hard to account for the X,Y positions plus you have to take rotation into account.
Also the FE2 has a 98% viewfinder coverage so if I had corners I'll end up cropping in a bit creating slightly smaller negatives.
With that said I was thinking about printing each image on a transparency and placing that over the viewfinder. Obviously I would also need to change cameras.
No idea if that'll work, but that's where I'm headed with this.
i had to remember which video you said something about clear base c41 film and it was this one!!! i just got a couple of rolls of sfl aerocolor 125 (kodak aerocolor iv respool??) and it has a clear base!! i have no idea if you're gonna try this again but yea in case you ever need another clear base c41 film
That's not the first time someone mentioned aerocolor. I might have to pick a roll and try it out.
Infrared sensitivity is a chemical property of the emulsion. I understand the emulsions of the films you used don't have that property. Changing the methods of exposure and the motives don't change that emulsion chemistry! Where did you see infrared come into play?
next step, try film Washi X, a color film with a clear base.
Dude, rad stuff. Any chance reverse-rolling your clear base Kodak cinema film would help compensate for the yellow tinting you got? Kinda like shooting redscale, same process of reversing which side of the film is facing the lens. Or is the problem more that the film doesn't contain the yellow layer needed to block the blue light from leeching into red/green layers? Even then... a #12 yellow "minus blue" filter or something could help balance the colors out, potentially without needing to even reverse spool the film. If you could get that to work, you could potentially get back down to a single "copying" process instead of two.
Besides that it seems like your biggest challenge is registration. I don't have any specific ideas, but if you can conceptualize a jig or tool that would help line things up perfectly from frame to frame (perhaps using sprocket holes), I'd be more than happy to CAD and 3D print it for you, and mail it off.
Another idea if you're trying to recreate aerochrome is to remove the camera and lens from the copying equation entirely, and just use a dichro head and an enlarger to "contact print" the film from one roll onto the other. Once again registration is probably the biggest challenge. But you could have a ton of fine-tuned control over color balance that way, and less optical weakness in the copying process.
One last thing... if you ever get any ideas about how one might recreate Cibachrome, let me know. My biggest regret in all of photography is not getting into the hobby until after there was no real viable way to get a great color positive print out of slide film. I know there are some reverse processed RA-4 solutions, but they don't really look very good to me, certainly not like Cibachrome.
I like the idea of "redscaling" the film. I would assume it would help having the blue layer first, but I don't know how much excess blue light would still leak through. Obviously there will be some leakage otherwise companies wouldn't add an extra yellow layer if it didn't do anything. This might be worth trying.
Next, about the registration. I thought about using the sprocket holes, but while my camera has good frame spacing it's not perfect. I would need some kind of pin registration camera if I were to go down that route.
My next approach is to print an outline version of a frame on transparency film and place in above the focusing screen. It would require me to do this for every frame, but I think that should solve for most of the registration errors. It wouldn't be perfect, but my original trichrome negs aren't perfect either.
Regarding the color infrared positives. If I were to try this again on E6, I would have to shoot fresh trichromes and develop it as a positive with the Adox Scala reversal kit or DR5. I'm not sure how well Rollei or Ilford IR films would handle the reversal process, but if it's usable that would eliminate an additional copy step.
And regarding Cibachrome I'm not well versed in printing, I've only made a dozen darkroom prints in my life. Although I do want to do more, I just need to find space to set up an enlarger and such.
It's also good to know you can do CAD and 3d printing, I might have to pick your brain about some things.
Thanks!
@@atticdarkroom Well if you figure out a space for an enlarger and can come up with a way to get it from Utah to wherever you are... I have my trusty Omega B-22 that I'm not using anymore. It's a fantastic enlarger for up to 6x6 film. Haven't had the heart to sell it since I upgraded to a large format enlarger, but it would do my heart good to know it went to a good home where it won't just gather dust. LMK if at any point in the future you want it.
Will do, thanks for the offer!
@@atticdarkroom regarding Rollei in Scala: Retro 400s @ ISO 200 looks great in Scala process, first dev 10 minutes @20C. Rollei Infrared, Retro 80s, Superpan 200 and RPX 25 are all similar enough that they should work too.
I used Cibachrome Professional a lot in the 1970s and '80s and it is superb.Colours are really beautiful and even framed prints are still just as vivid today as when I made them. I have a 3 colour set of rolls of German made carbon/carbro paper in cyan, magenta and yellow. Make me an offer? Same azo dyes as Cibachrome.
If used a blank ECN-2 or C-41 negative(as in just the orange base with no image) and you placed it over the film your photographing with the SLR while 'reverse trichroming' it, then maybe you could achieve correct colour on the Kodak 2383, if that didn't work you could place the blank film base before the filter on the lens(as in lens, film base, colour filter).
Nope. Won't work.
id try kodak aerocolor
Hello!! A week ago I discovered your channel, I can only say ¡bravo! I find what you do fascinating and you have discovered me some other process that had not crossed my mind
How do you get black and white slides?
I mean, what process do you use to develop the agfa copex fast reel (or any black and white slide reel like Fomapan R100) and get the slide? Do you use E-6 process?
Thank you so much! Y disculpa si he cometido alguna falta al escribir estas lineas, pero como buen Español que soy tengo un nivel de ingles un poco lamentable..
I just photographed some negatives. Think DSLR scanning, but with film. There's definitely better ways to do this (namely B&W reversal) but I don't have the knowhow or the patience to figure that out right now.
have you ever tried Trichroming some BW infrared film, make BW slides out if it, and copy those three with filters onto color slide film?? that removes all the mask issues and could potentially get you pretty clean "aerochrome" fakes no? i think i wanna try that..
i should watch full videos before commenting.. sorry
but still, making BW slides directly would remove one step of "copying", making the image maybe a bit cleaner
Maybe another quick easy one for you, what if you kept going with the negative of a positive but stuck with the same film each time. Sort of like how if you photo copy a form over and over, it degrades in quality. Would be interesting how far you could take it especially with something with a fine grain like Pan F or something.
I like this idea a lot. I'll definitely have to try this.
@@atticdarkroom I look forward to it! And thanks for sharing these fun experiments. Getting back into film again and have lots of old bulk film to play with. Lots of ideas you've provided to try on it
I'm glad to hear that. Those old bulk rolls aren't going to shoot itself!
Couldn't you shoot them with an orange filter to balance the orange base?
No, it’s inherent to the film. You would just get orange tinted photos.
A wystarczylo by spytac zawodowcow jak to kiedys robili
love your stuff!
Have you ever thought about trichroming orthochromatic film with a UV-pass filter?
keep up the good work 👍
UV trichrome is definitely on the list!
@@atticdarkroom looking forward to it ☺️
On the whole color positive infared film thing.
Why not try using an ir filter while shooting ektachrome? It should give the same result as real aerochrome
Ektachrome 100 is not IR sensitive, even if you put an IR pass filter it wouldn't capture anything.
@@atticdarkroom damn :(
This is the kind of insanity o can get behind
If you're interested it would appear that SantaColor 100 will have a clear base (if that project gets finished.)
Edit: It would appear they alredy reached their goal.
I'm an early backer. Hopefully it comes to fruition.
You can also try to track down Kodak Aerocolor (not Aerochrome!) as it's a C-41 film with a clear base and is supposedly Santacolor. Analog Resurgence made a video on it.
@@640kiboughttobeenough Yep I was aware of that, I however thought SantaColor would be a better option since it can still be purchased new while you don't really know were the aerocolor you can find comes from. You could also purchase aerocolor from kodak...
...If you buy like 15 000 rolls or something like that.
@@alfepalfe yeah, Santacolor will probably be more accessible, Noah managed to obtain some from a Russian store (rolled down Aerocolor is extremely common here) but the logistics are questionable, especially considering current happenings.
When you copied BW to BW what is the copy process?
Essentially the same thing as DSLR scanning. A negative holder over a light table. Camera with a macro lens and extension tube pointed straight down on the negative. And take a picture.
I used aperture priority and it seemed to do a pretty good job.
2383 is not a ecn-2 film
I saw it was VISION film and assumed it was ECN-2. Honestly I didnt even realize ECP-2D was a thing. Cinema film processing is way out of my wheelhouse.
“But I did it”
Taking a picture on photographic paper and then taking a picture of this negative again on photographic paper to get an acceptable (to the authorities) passport portrait seemed (seems?) to be the "normal" procedure with the so called "Afghan camera"...
this is nothing new or revolutionary. Photographers have been doing this for decades.
Sir it's 5 a.m I'm eating a turkey sandwich off a charcuterie board because I can't find a plate and I have a question only a psycho like you can answer...what happens if you microwave film?
🤔 I have no idea, but sounds like fun. I'll have to give it a go.
@@atticdarkroom please take it out of the metal cassette first!