INFERNO - The Fall of Jonathan Hickman’s X-Men
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- In this video, Owen explains the history of Inferno, why Jonathan Hickman exited X-Men and how this story changed the fate of the Krakoa saga.
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I still stand by the fact that there will never be anything like the Krakoa era. What Jonathan Hickman and crew did with HOX/POX was truly unlike anything mainstream big 2 comics had ever seen and it was the fresh start that the X-Men needed after many years of uncertainty. While it is a shame that Hickman left the way he did and that Marvel’s handing of the “Fall of X” wasn’t exactly great, it was certainly fun while it lasted. Farewell Krakoa. Let’s see the future holds next.
Cof Inhumans cof
Well said, very fun run that ran out of steam the longer it went but there’s enough bright spots throughout that I don’t know how people could just say it was outright failure
Eh, I dunno. The characters were pretty often OFC and it kinda felt like crappy Inhumans, also the "Make more mutants" mission statement came off super weird. Additionally Krakoa is a weird place to start another mutant nation, why not focus on a rebuilding of Genosha?
@@mayotango1317 I am amazed by the fact that marvel has two species, the Mutants and the Inhumans, that can manifest pretty much any power either naturally or via terrigenesis, yet for some reason half of their superheroes have the most random origin stories with even dumber retcons to attempt to make them make sense.
@@mayotango13174:57-5:03 *sees Ms. Marvel on Inhuman side* Marvel: "You sweet, summer child."
A title card reading “While you slept, the world changed.” would be a sick as hell way to introduce the Mutants into the MCU at the start of their first film.
That sound so Inhumans.
@@mayotango1317 can you just stop? This is nothing like the inhumans
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 Yes.
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868
But the Krakoa X-Men are basically the same. A society of stuck-up snobs who think they are better than everyone else.
One thing that I find hilarious is that Marvel tried to replace the Xmen with Inhumans which failed, but what really made XMen pop again was making them more like the Inhumans.
I know things can't last forever but I feel the Krakoa era could have given so much more under Hickman
Nah he was pretty much out of steam on it. The reason he left was because his plans would've involved it falling right there and then, while the other writers wanted to tell more stories and when those stories are as spectacular as Immortal X-Men and X-Men Red, it's hard to believe Hickman could've done more. I kinda just feel like at this point everyone should agree that Ewing is better than Hickman
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 Mmmm. Reserve the right to reserve judgement
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868I wouldn’t say better. Just that Hickman had an ending in mind and didn’t want to stretch things out
Hickman’s childhood favorite book was Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes. One day I hope we see his vision for Legion of Superheroes
Is the type of story that suits his style. Everything Hickman touches becomes very large in scale (not a bad thing, since he executes his ideas very well), I believe the new Ultimate Spider-Man is the most self-contained run he ever wrote, and even there he is in charge of the new Ultimate Universe.
I'd LOVE to see a new comic series for Legion of Superheroes,heck I haven't bought any new comics since 2007 ( nor been in a comics shop either ) but,for a new LEGION series I'd buy these comics tho.
I'll always wonder about what could have been had things not led to Hickman leaving when he did. Excellent video as always!
I fear the problem is that the X-men have too much history attached to them so I feel that no matter what he did nobody would have been satisfied
The entire line got so much better after he left. Hox/PoX was amazing, but his X-Men run after was so middling.
After he left, we got X-Men Red, Duggan’s X-Men, and Immortal X-Men, which were soooo much better than what Hickman was doing.
@@mitchschroeder1151 Very true.
@@mitchschroeder1151 I mostly agree but Duggan's xmen was a bit too hit or miss for me, especially in the end with Noto's fill-in art. Issue 35 was perfect though but mostly because of Ewing, Gillen and claremont
Same. The great 'What If'
My local ComicCon is next week, with Hickman there. I definitely want to hear his thoughts on the end of the Krakoa era. He may not be able to answer due to Marvel, though.
The desire to stay in the first part of Krakoa really squandered what the ending could have been and the lessons learnt, though an AIPT interview with JDW really showed he had no idea what he was doing.😊
marvel f^#@ed this story idea over
@bandoogiemanz it really made it feel the story Stagnated and they depended on big events to move the story through rather that using the books to explore genuine issues on the island. Like Vitas New Mutants, I think that one was great.
Who is JDW?
@@matthewschwartz6607 Jordan White
The thing with Moira`s mutant "cure" problem I always think of, is the fact that Ord from Breakworld did that in Astonishing X-Men but everyone in the X-Men writing team forgets that was a thing xD
No, they remember, it's just that she wasn't trying to cure herself in this timeline. The timeline she was trying to cure herself in presumably didn't have Ord invent it, and in this timeline where ord DID, she was very much trying to stay a mutant
I wished we got Hickman true ending with x-men because his story seemed far more interesting and ten times better then the awfulness of fall of x which just made no sense and was a mess in my opinion.
Wasn't too bad, Sins of Sinsters and the Dominion story was cool.
@@FreshNews247 I can understand that and honestly I am glad you enjoyed sins of sinister and the dominion stuff more than I did.
We never would've gotten IXM or XMR without him leaving, and honestly I just don't see a way his fall could've been more cohesive than theirs with even LESS time.
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 i can understand that
Owen Likes Comics, You're amazing! I hit the like button as soon as I saw it!
I loved the First Krakoan Age. And even though it really feels like it went out on a whimper, X-Men #700 definitely was better than I thought it would be and legitimately got me excited for From the Ashes. But I will tragically miss all of the drastic things that Hickman set up with "House of X/Powers of X."
I'm just glad that they didn't take the easy way out of nuking Krakoa, decimating the mutant population and setting the X-Men back to square one AGAIN
That's always been the most frustraiting part of the X-Men for me, that they're never allowed to make an permanent progress, just banging the same "feared and hated" drum since the 60s
The final issue of Krakoa gave me a lot of hope that I didn't have before. I was worried that JDW was just rolling over, destroying everything from the last 5 years and saying to Brevoort "Fine, just do whatever you want" but the writers for X-Men 35 really showed that wasn't true, their attitude was more of a "Fine, we may have had to destroy krakoa, but it will never truly die, and one day it'll return"
They lowkey did though, the whole ending of this era feels so weird
@@yacinealimi7808 They literally did the opposite of that. Every mutant that has ever died in the past 25 years of storytelling was brought back, and even Krakoa the island survived
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 yes but the nation of krakoa is gone, apocalypse has reverted to how he was in the 90s, the x men are gonna be back in ny, the status quo has basically just reinstated itself
@@yacinealimi7808 ...did you finish the issue? Apo learned why his 90s philosophy simply doesn't work anymore and he retired on Arrako, he's definitely not just how he was in the 90s.
The Krakoa era is so fascinating, I’m really sad to see it end. But I’m interested to see where it goes next. Great video Owen 💙
Tbh, I really think that Destiny of X is stronger than Reign of X. Dawn is probably a bit better (and if you include HoXPoX in Dawn it's definitely better) but Destiny just had some amazing titles, especially from Ewing and Gillen that just outclassed nearly everything that came before.
People like to pretend that nothing redeemable came from Krakoa after hickman left but the truth is that some of its best moments didn't happen until then. It's really just a shame that they killed it all for corporate synergy, but the state of mutants after yesterday's X-Men 35 makes me a lot more hopeful that the krakoan era can one day return.
The first Krakoan Age is done, but its ideals have been planted in our world Now And Forever. The Pax Krakoa will never die, and one day, the Krakoan Age will return, built piece by piece From the Ashes
Meh, Hickman just copy the Inhumans ideas.
@@mayotango1317 ... no? Literally nothing like that. Go actually read HoXPoX
Well said. I think it'd be interesting to see a Top 10 of the Krakoan Era, looming at great runs or arcs. For me Ewing's SWORD is up there.
@@bojacknorseman9009 Honestly Ewing is my favorite writer ever and Schiti is one of my favorite artists but I've kinda struggled to get through all of S.W.O.R.D.. Most of it is great but there are some issues where it's just kinda boring. I think my top 10 of volumes/arcs has to be:
1. HoXPoX - Just truly transcendent, an absolute 10/10
2. X-Men: Red - Probably my favorite comic series out there even though it does slow down a bit toward the end
3. Way of X - Maybe the most underrated series from this era, one of the only series' to really ask the right questions about Krakoa (along with a few others we'll get to) and my god those last few issues are just perfect
4. Hellions - Another one that really gets Krakoa, along with perfect character writing
5. Immortal X-Men/X-Men Forever - Technically two series' but Gillen has said that XMF would've been Immortal X-Men 19-25 if it hadn't been cancelled. Just amazing, no notes.
6. Hickman's X-Men - Honestly this one isn't my thing, but I do still recognize that it's objectively amazing even if only about half of it really hits for me
7. Marauders v1 - This is kinda my guilty pleasure. It's what got me into comics, and even though over time I've started to recognize its flaws (especially as I started to dislike Duggan more and more) it still just holds a special place in my heart. It may not be perfect, but I'm gonna be really upset to see Kate get reverted back to what she was before it.
8. X-Factor - Such an amazing run that was cancelled before its time because the writer made a pitch that was TOO good, so they cancelled the series and made that pitch a miniseries leaving her to wrap up this one in one really clunky issue.
9. Hickman's New Mutants - These issues of NM are so fun, joyful, and awesome and it's really a shame that the Sam/Berto book Hickman apparently wanted to write never got greenlit.
10. I'm honestly really split here, so I'm just gonna honorable mention X-Men/F4 by Zdarsky, A.X.E. and sins of Sinister by Gillen, Uncanny Spider-Man by Spurrier, RotPoX by Gillen, Silva and Luciano, Excalibur by Howard, Resurrection of Magneto by Ewing, X-Terminators by williams, and parts of Percy's X-Force
YES! I remember when Destiny started and I realized Immortal X-Men, X-Men Red and Legion of X were leading to Sins of Sinister it felt really exciting. Like it seemed as fresh and interesting as Dawn of X. I also kinda wish Gillen was the one who took over X-Men instead of Duggan, so that we'd have 2 Gillen ongoings at the same time building to the Dominion storyline.
I think Hickman leaving and letting Krakoa live two more years was the right move. So much was done.
And maybe, ten years down the line, we will see Krakoa again. Blessed be the Spark.
Hickman's X-Men was so exciting to read, and it's a topic I've definitely looked forward to hearing Owen cover. Awesome video!
I’m not sure any mainstream comic arc will ever blow my mind as much as House of X/Powers of X, no one was prepared for that story. Such a grand sci fi epic, the last thing I expected, just insane.
Reminds me a lot of Phil Collins on the Tarzan soundtrack meme, like it’s just a comic book Hickman did not have to go that hard lol
A huge mistake on their part because this run could have been just as definitive/representative as his FF and Avengers. I cannot wait to see a What If...? mini that explores Hickman's original plan.
How? It’s already the most influential X-men story of our time
... this is absolutely just as definitive as those, it's easily the best and most important X-Men story since Morrison's New X-Men.
And there's no "Hickman's original plan." The creatives behind Krakoa have said time and time again that Hickman didn't have a whole detailed plan from beginning to end, that before he planned any further than his X-Men run, he gathered all the writers together and asked if they wanted to continue krakoa or end it. They said no, so he planned up to Inferno, and then set the stage for them to continue. He didn't know 100% how he'd pay everything off, though he certainly had some ideas, and what they did from there was their choice.
@@marvelprince First half is really fresh but it doesn't stick the landing. I enjoyed his ideas immensely, unfortunatelly the other half is not his so the quality takes a significant nosedive. He didn't get to finish the tale (in the way it was intended to be told) and because of that the story falls apart in the second act.
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 it’s almost like they didn’t watch the video we’re commenting on that explains that
@@ChristopherLono I feel like he got to say what he planned to. A house built on sand will not last etc. And the other writers used what he did to tell some awesome stories. I don’t see how this isn’t a win win. Sure it didn’t end overall how he might’ve planned but in the grand scheme it worked
And then hickman retired to the ultimate universe
I'm convinced Marvel gave him the Ultimate Universe just to throw him a bone and keep him happy, because they don't want to lose him...again. lol
After hickman it died immediately..
I tried liking Hickman's run on X-Men, but it was just too much grimdark with Beast going insane, mutants taking over the world through miracles of medicine, and smacking down a nation that could compete with them. Heroes no more.
Literally only one of those things was written by Hickman and was contained within a book he wrote. Seems like you JUST read HoXPoX and X-Force and assumed the whole era was like X-Force when the entire point of X-Force was to be "the murder book" according to its writer.
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 I read House of X, Powers of X, and X-Men Dawn of X volumes 1-10, which (unless I'm mistaken) contained X-Men, X-Force, and Xcalibur. I got the impression that there was no hope in any of it, and I feel that's the exact opposite of what the X-Men are about. Hickman didn't write all of it, but wasn't he the creative director of it all?
@@MrHousecup X-Men and Excalibur were very hopeful, I'd give them a reread if that was your impression. Powers of X was admittedly a bit nihilistic because you go through the whole thing knowing these futures will be erased but House of X was incredibly hopeful, literally about life winning over death
This was a great video, thank you, and it's really cool to see you & Ernie talking about this!
AWESOME VIDEO it still stings when hickman left x men I will always wonder what could have been it should have been long with no creative and editorial influence. Which i thing what led to the fall of krakoa era
Such a good video! Well written as always, keep it up!!
I wish Hickman had stayed on because we did stay in the first part of his plan for far too long leading to honestly a weak ending this past week. Above all, I want to know where he would have taken Moria, what his plans were for Mr. M and for Douglock.
Great video owen!!
Would love to see another Hickman X-men video soon about the end and fall of krakoa, if you’re interested in making it ofc!
I really adored HOX/POX and the great ideas/ stories that came from it, but sadly I think while the idea of sharing the characters and stories held it back from becoming a masterpiece. I loved the original idea but many of the other X-books like x-corp, children of the atom, new mutants, Excalibur, wolverine were not fun, not moving the story along but suddenly important at random moments in time they became vital, which caused (imo) a huuuge fomo for books I did not care for. While I understand that sharing the toys was the collegial way of doing it in marvel, it will be the reason that this book will remain flawed and not a masterpiece
R.I.P Benny the Comicstorian
Hahahahah I nearly forgot about that time they tried to make the inhumans cool. As Rob once said " Balckbolt is fuckin lame" 😂
Eh ironically they made the X-Men in Inhumans here.
Making them isolationist bigots didn't help, even Xavier admitted his dream was worthless, and gave up
I would have liked to have seen Hickman stay longer. I read that he had big plans for The Imperial Guard (And he did use Gladiator during his Avengers run .). I would have loved to have seen that .
I think your videos would benefit so much from a ambience soundtrack. To create an atmosphere e mainly to help the pacing of the videos. just some thoughts
The problem with Inferno is that :
One in makes charle and erik into incompetent idiots in fact the five are also idiots since hope is a telepath and nobody catch that it's Mystique.
Two this twists come out of nowhere and doesn't really make sense with what's been set up before.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Great video
The Krokoan era certainly fell off a cliff once Hickman left, but it wasn't good to begin with. The whole retcon makes no sense, it throws far too many big ideas into the mix all at once, completely undermines any sense of stakes, and destroys so many established characterizations. So glad it's over.
I know so many of us wanted to to what Johnathan Hickman had for act 2 and 3. I feel like the fact that they didn't reboot the X-men and the Krakoa Era after Rise/Fall of X, maybe just maybe we will get that, but I won't hold my breath.
I needed this summary ❤
A great video
This is the best explanation of X-Men of the Krakoran age I’ve ever seen!
Rest in Peace, Comichistorian
I think HOX/POX is easily one of the greatest X-men stories of all time. I was so enthused I got every number one of the Krakoa era... and was massively disappointed. I stuck with X-Force for a few issues, but it seemed like they really weren't capitalizing on this exciting new status quo successfully.
Holding out hope, I kept checking in. I tried Swords of X and found it unreadable. I read some Brood stuff that was sort of interesting. The only things I was really impressed by were the Hellfire Gala single issues, totally amazing single annual style stories.
Recently I tried to jump in for the wrap of this line, and it's dying with such a whimper it feels like the Krakoa era has been a steady decline from the amazing start. I want to be enthused about the new era, but it's so clearly multi-media synergy and not creatively driven, and the set up has been so poor my expectations are in the gutter. I never read Infrerno, but this description sounds scattered and out of sync with what came before. I guess the real lesson of the Krakoa era is that it is very hard to make a whole line of books work as one unified story.
01:00 "Trade the Westminster school..." *Westchester
Owens inner monologue: "don't say Westminster, don't say Westminster, don't say Westminster"
yep 🤦♂️
HOX and Powers were really good (Maybe a little bit overrated.), but I kind of hated what they did to and with Moira. I also didn’t buy them tolerating and letting Sinister on the island. And I didn’t like Apocalypse as a good guy . It’s good to see Ernie, I watch his channel. I didn’t expect him.
Krakoa will be remembered as the “something is missing here” era
I stopped reading before X of Swords. The Krakoa era just wasn't hooking me in like Hickman's Avengers, especially with the slow approach he was taking. Not to mention I didn't care for a crossover that had you buying 20 issues within 2 months, especially if you were only reading one or two of the series like I was. More power to those who stuck with it and enjoyed it though. I will be jumping back in with Gail Simone's Uncanny book in August.
All that said, I'd be interested in a "Fall of the House of X/Rise of the Powers of X" vid to round out the Krakoa trilogy in the future.
Honestly as much as I loved Krakoa all the way through, FotHoX doesn't deserve the same video as RotPoX. I'd love a video on RotPoX and X-Men Forever, the two series' that are ACTUALLY one, but FotHoX was just a mess and a disappointment with barely anything happening.
they definitely flooded the market with X-titles, and I also found Hickman's x-men book kind of unengaging, so I think I had a similar experience as you, great setup but then kind of eh.
Snakes in the garden, you had invited Mr. Sinister, Mystique, and other random villians who were in the nation but on the council as well.
Yep.
They invited Selene (she’s a laugh but I’d have to refuse her since she’d eat me), Fenris and Cassandra Nova.
And yet, Maddie Pryor and Juggernaut, who do have good moments, were left out in the cold for a long time.
The Fall happened in X of swords
I read the inferno series as I wrapped up finishing Reign of X. Prior to reading the order of the age of Krakoa I thought it had to do with Madelyn Pryor since several titles of Inferno always related to her.
Many people thought the same.
At the end of the day, Hickman's Inferno run had nothing to do with the original story and didn't even include fire.
I can’t even watch this because it makes me feel too sad. Hickman’s X-Men ended with Inferno. Percy ruined it immediately afterwards with his Moira story. It’s been downhill since then. I’m sad it’s over because it can never be rescued (and there was potential for a rescue) but I’m glad it’s been put out of it’s misery. #RIPKrakoa I would recommend anyone read HoXPoX through to inferno though. Classic.
I just didn't like the idea of Moira being made a mutant but kinda works since she did contract the legacy virus.
She actually contracted a human version of the Legacy Virus.
Mystique manufactured it to get revenge on David by killing Moira.
I like the stories, but the art of sassy prof X just turned me off, glad that'll finally get a change up..... hopefully....
Waiting for end of krakoa
i loved x of swords and i’m satisfied with it so i got all i wanted from the series
@39:51 "TO ME. MY X-men" 😂 She looks like she been waiting all her life to say that. That woman looks elated. Good job on the artist for that conveyence of feeling. And great jpb on the video overall. Thanks for sharing your work.
RIP the comicstorian
Also since you got me here, they should have followed Hickmans run to the "T". This guy made me care about F4 agian.😂
Why is Charles so ripped
For me, Destiny, the character, had always been the turd in the hot tub. She has an interesting power, but then making it so she becomes a moral authority simply because she can magically see ahead despite the fact that she's consistently been selfish and evil with those powers just like she claims Moira to be shows a lack of respect for the intelligence of the reader.
Moira essentially has the same powers with different execution when you think about it, she just had personally suffer with the results while destiny just gets to watch a movie and tell you who she likes better. Moira has to experience things viscerally and kinetically while Destiny pretends to have a moral high ground and everyone goes along with it because her girlfriend will go over your head in unethical and sometimes outright murderous ways if you don't
Destiny's powers are such a massive can of worms in terms of storytelling, similar to time travel, which in almost all cases creates plot holes or logic errors. It always feels cheap when some infallible, all knowing oracle kind of thing messes with a story.
@@justalex4214 i think hers work a LOT better than most versions, because she can see every possible future but that means in moments with multiple outcomes, she doesn't necessarily know what will happen until it has, and in moments that will drastically affect the future, the new possible futures she sees can even completely blind her to the future.
A character who can see the future is one thing, but a character whose knowledge of the future has only taught them that "there is no 'the future,' there is no 'destiny'" is a completely different thing
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 maybe, but still it feels like a cheap way to deal with the moira situation and once destiny has fullfilled her purpose in the story, she'll probably be conveniently forgotten by the writers.
It doesn't help that this era gifted us Destiny's most plothole filled prophecy yet that contradicts nearly 50 years of comicbook content.
It's the end of an era, I'm really gonna miss Krakoa. I really hope you cover X of Swords at some point. It was my favorite story of the Krakoan era. #KrakoaIsForAllMutants
Emma frost is very confusing to me
I didnt like Krakoa era at all. It turned into my nan's daytime dramas and got rid of the excitement of defined heroes fighting defined villians. I want cool comic book action from X-Men, not melodrama. And for the record I LOVED HOX and POX. It all made sense about everything ending in phalanx, but then hard cut to the Krakoan mutant celebration when everyone knows how it ends already. But they are still partying instead of trying to prepare at all for the future.
THATS why the nuked Destiny. The mutants were having a rager orgy party on krakoa and didn't want to be reminded of how it ends. It literally reminds me of my roommates in college who failed out, knew they would to begin with, but decided to waste their parents money anyways so they could get laid.
What's with Xavier's stupid helmet??
It's a modified version of cerebro that holds psychic downloads of every mutant except storm, magneto and rockslide
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 and why does he wear it all the time?
@@ciaranmurren In universe, it amplifies his powers, allows him to take the psychic downloads it holds and access them in order to resurrect mutants, and a few other somewhat useful things.
Out of universe, they wanted to make him seem less trustworthy, more creepy, and make krakoan culture seem more alien to the human culture of mutants we've known before, so covering his face with a creepy helmet that at one point in the story, literally hides the fact that he's been taken over by sinister is a good way to do that. It makes it much harder to read his facial expressions so you can never truly tell how he feels about something
O:D
Thank you for the video. Hickman somehow was veto’d into making stupid ass stories like Swords Of X, great concept, bad execution. & other events he didn’t want he saw the future & said umm yea I’m gonna do Inferno & leave.
I hated Inferno because I could tell it wasn’t his original intention. Or simply if left to its original means it would have been much much better.
Sins of Sinister was kool & so was Storm’s run on Mars but when I heard of the fall of x, I saw the future like Hickman, & been here with the X-men franchise before. The Hell Fire Gala was my last X-men comic I actually read where it all goes to shit.
I’ve grown tired of dreaming what If? Hickman was allowed to fully flesh out his idea and see it through. We all know it would have been *^*^* GOLD. Screw Marvel & those dumb ass creators. Sorry not sorry.
Great video