Do not use a channel lock or water pump plier on your mushroom nut. Use an appropriate sized adjustable wrench (Crescent) with tape applied to the jaws.
I have got this kit from AB, it was easy to install, with my machine it already has a grouphead pressure gauge installed so I did not have to install the grouphead gauge supplied with the kit. My machine only has mannual pre-infusion so there was no need for me to replace the spring in the pre-brew cylinder. I did a few flow testing and I found my machine's water flow pretty much matching the water flow of your video at 6:15 mark, the baseline of my machine is at 1.5 turn of the flow control dial. With the flow control unit I was able to start my extraction around 8 bar pressure then dial back to 1.25 turn to maintain 6 bar pressure then end at about 4. For me the addition of water flow unit in the extraction flow seems to have stop over extraction which produce somewhat slight bitter taste of the dark roast coffee I am using, the coffee extracted is a lot sweeter and smoother. I still have not tried to ramp up the flow to extract at higher water flow and pressure, I will test that in the future. Yes, it is very interesting kit to try and certainly produce a different tasting cup of coffee.
The video is true to the solution, the greatest difficulty is getting the bottom part in place while applying upward pressure, turning and keeping it straight. It takes a few tries and strong hands are required. I put some electrician's tape over the bottom hole to make it smooth on my palm while pressing up and turning without tearing-up my skin. Thanks for the video! And if you're wondering the flow control is well worth the expense and makes a great espresso even on the first try I could see and taste the difference.
Generally a great instructional video - but I was disappointed to see an agricultural set of grips used to work on on such a fine machine! A quality wrench would have looked more professional! I notice you didn’t reinstall the o ring on the new gauge but one was supplied in the kit? Does this mean only use the O ring if required?
There isn't many obvious change over of o-rings during installation that need to be replaced other than the WHITE gasket under the mushroom seal and possibly the other on the Pre-infusion chamber. The gasket on the hex screw I left in, as well as adding the tape the the pressure gauge - and this helps create a reliable seal as well as the spacing required to line up the pressure gauge in order for it to be levelled appropriately. So long as it's not required - )visually inspecting current o-rings) I recommend keeping the spare green seals from Coffee Sensors pack - in order to have spares once the current ones wera out. This will occur eventually - but o'rings are easy to replace
Great video. Is it possible to purchases parts to repair one of these? I have one that needs the spring and the brass jet inside. Both were damaged by a previous owner of the machine. Thanks!
The lower spring allows the a certain amount of water to fill the back of the E61 Grouphead chamber - let's' say 20mls - and lengthens the time it takes for the pump to pump the water in to the coffee bed - that will create back-pressure. So the time between the pump having to work hard against the back pressure is lengthened by this - whilst water is still able to come into contact with the bed of coffee - so it's here - in that moment you have a pre-infusion of the coffee. Now - some machines have this as a delayed start to the pump - others it's manual - and you have to lift the lever up halfway - activating the grouphead but not turning on the pump. Hope that explains it
thank you! is it compulsory to remove the automatic pre-infusion? it may seem a strange question, but I'm thinking that by not changing it, with the top set to 9 bars, you can do the classic E61 shots.
No it's not actually - you could have FlowSensor set at a particular pressure and have the Automatic Pre-infusion set - and then allow them both to interact with the shot at different times 👌
One should mention that this ”automatic pre-infusion“ depends on wether you have a plumbed-in machine or you are pulling your water from the water tank…
Great content as always! Would love to know more of how you use flow profiling day-to-day, if you do at all, or maybe just a candid take on these tools and methods. Do you even need flow or pressure profiling to get the most out of a lighter roast? Thanks again!
With some use - you get used to the positions of the tap - a gentle low and slow pre-infusion - slow ramp up to 6-8 bars pressure and then again slow ramp down helps extend contact time - doesn't over extract and sweetens the shot up quite nicely - if it's too sweet or sour - pull at a slightly higher pressure for longer 😀
Thanks for the video! A couple of questions: 1. Should the machine be descaled before installation? I use soft water now, but didn't in the past, so there may be some scale. 2. Is there a way to install a grouphead thermometer after installing this kit? It seems the pressure gauge is installed to the same place where the thermometer should go.
Hi there, 1. Descaling is not a bad thing, if you're concerned about it - but it won't effect the FCD as much as it'll effect the boiler efficiency in heating. So unless you have grave concerns about it, than I wouldn't be too concerned. Now you're using lower TDS water, you'll actually be reversing the issue. 2. You are correct, it is the same place, so no... you cannot have the both. I am aware they are working on a dual model,, but have no updates on this at the moment. 2nd best option would be to use the Thermometer for a while to get the best understanding of the machines heating cycles as you can, than you could change over to the FCD when you feel confident you can gauge the temp.
Thank you for the great video. I understand having to turning off the machine during installation, but my machine is plumbed in. Do I also have to cut off the water supply at the source during install?
Great video. I’m I correct to state that the Rocket Appartamento does not really have real pre-infusion so I don’t need to replace the spring like in your video?
@@rand9176 Yes I did install it. Quite simple mod. I can’t say I mastered the flow control recipes but you can always set the lever to provide the same flow as your original machine. I recommend you evaluate your normal flow rate (the amount of liquid out - without portafilter installed - per a set amount of time) of your machine prior modification. That way, you can do the same test at different flow lever settings and find your original flow verses lever position.
@@wizzpet6562 thanks for the reply mate. So with the apartamento you don’t need to do the step with the pre brew cylinder at all? Can leave that as is?
Hello and thank you for this video, it gives envy. But do you provide examples of extraction profiles with the purchase? Or can you find some on the internet? Thank you.
Whole Latte Love has a great video on it on profited 700. As a matter of fact, I suspect, even it’s competition’s tech Mario asked some advice from Mark.
The same rules apply to brewing the espresso - whether it is at 9 bars or lower pressure. Yes, this tool will enable you to brew at lower pressures - though your grind size will still play an important role in the speed at which pressure is built up in the group head and the flow of water through the puck is driven. Pressure and flow rate are dependent on one another. Pressure is measured from behind the puck (in the grouphead) - Flow rate is the measurement on the other side, with the grams per second. The Flow Control Device uses restriction of the water through the group, managing the flow of water onto the coffee. the flow rate will be determined by the resistance in the ground coffee, that is how fine or coarse it is - as well as the pressure applied to it.
@@AlternativeBrewingsorry another question I have a similar machine a Bellezza Chiara....once I install this flow control kit can i still use the PID preinfusion on the machine or do I always have to do a Manuel preinfusion with the flow control nob?
Thanks for the video! In the instructions with mine, it seems to say that the stronger spring is only necessary to be installed when unit doesn't have water reservoir. Is that your understanding?
I’ve been flirting with the idea of putting one of these on my Mara X. The videos I’ve seen about it haven’t been explicit with regards to the flow rate as you’ve explained here (and one by Marc at Whole Latte Love) they usually just talk about watching the pressure gauge, I think that a lot of people might not realise it’s the flow they are supposed to be learning about.
Glad it was helpful! 100% it's the flow. The pressure will adjust according to the resistance in the ground coffee, where you may see a dip in pressure - thinking you have to increase the flow to maintain a consistent pressure - what in fact it is telling you is the coffee bed is becoming less dense as extraction is progressing, so counter-intuitively you in fact want to slightly decrease the flow 👍
@@markv7899 Hey Mark, curious to know how you went with this on your Rocket? I too have an appartamento and have been considering this mod for a while. I've only managed to find threads where people are considering adding it to their appartamento - no accounts / feedback on how they went with installing and how they enjoyed the modification. Thanks in advance for your feedback.
@@rand9176 sorry misunderstanding I actually ended up buying the ecm synchronika with flow control as the upgrade from the rocket appartamento. Flow control on any e61 will work the same. I can definitely recommend flow control for several reasons. 1. Its a great tool to minimise any extraction inconsistencies such as channeling leading to over extraction. This is as simple as adding a low flow pre-infusion for a couple of seconds before ramping up to normal pressure. 2. It's a great way to experiment with different flow rates during certain stages of the brew and you can change the taste of beams through a bit of experimentation. 3. If you roast your own coffee long, slow slow pre-infusion can take the edge of super fresh roasts. I would personally recommend a flow control device
Interesting video! I have the FC on my R58 since 2 years already but I unfortunately never checked the default flow rate prior to installation. I'd guess it is the same default value for EVERY R58 on the market so the information should be easy to find on Internet? Might seem like a dumb question but if 5.66ml/s for 30sec extraction is 168ml but you only get 40g "1:2 ratio" in the cup, where does all that extra water go during the extraction?? My dad installed mine but we never installed the "anti pre-infusion" spring. I've been told it wasn't necessary and I think either Profitech or ECM even didn't bundle the spring in their installation packaging at all and as it seemed complicated we didn't do it. What consequences exactly is it gonna have? Is it just during the initial pre-infusion process? Is it gonna prevent ramping down the flow by the end of the extraction? Can I still use most of my FC functionality?
Thanks for watching. So, the calculation of 5.66ml / sec would be without coffee extracting. And this will get you a comfortable flow rate of water - that then back ups and creates pressure. The flow rate will in large depend on how quick/easy you can manipulate the pressure. A very slow flow rate of water means it'll take a long time to reach 9 bars of pressure. There are benchmarks for good flow rates on a 9 bar machine. With variable flow rates - it get a little more trial and error. In referring to the flow rate of standard espresso - it's more close to 1.2-1.6g / sec flow rate for extraction. There are some machines that do not require tis spring to be swapped out. Generally what will happens is the handle on the E61 machine will be harder to open up once the FCD is installed. And you DON"T want to be to be using the E61 mechanical Pre-infusion. where you lift the handle about half way up to open the brew group - but not start the pump. You'll be by-passing this system altogether with the FCD further up the line.
@@AlternativeBrewing Oh thanks for the clear explanation! So if I understood correctly, the spring replacement is ONLY to make the lever easier to lift but if you don't have issue then no big deal? I just wanted to be sure not changing it would completely cancel the FCD or force it to ramp up to 9 bar while ur trying to keep it low for pre-infusion. I never use the middle position of the levers even if I have a Rotary pump as it seems to do nothing anyway when ur not plumbed in for a higher "inline pressure" :/ I always try to seek 1:2 with 20g in 40g out in 30sec or minimum 25sec. I just realized that the store who sold my R58 3 years ago never adjusted correctly my pump pressure and I was at 10.0 bars instead of 9.0 bars meh... Seems like however I need the pump to be at 9.2 to get 9.0 on the FDC gauge, otherwise 9.0 a+ the pump always give me 8.8 which is a bit annoying for my OCD ^^
@@PanzerIV88 yes ! I know right! Rest assure what ever you're seeing on the FCD gauge is what you're getting through to the coffee. This is why it is such a good gauge to have. Plus you're lucky, being able to adjust pump pressure etc on a great machine 😀
Hello AB! How it is supposed the O-ring to wear and to be replaced? As fas as I understood from your comments, it is very important to mount the kit properly in order to avoid damage in O-ring of the new mushroom
If it's not seated correctly - it may have caused rips in the seal when tightening - which may render the seal useless - in that case - you'll have to get a new seal. These are easy to come by - just ensure you get the correct size 👌 It will wear over time - with the heating and cooling of the machine - just like the rest of the Espresso machines seals. But if seated correctly - it shouldn't need to be done for many years at least
You may have a spring that is stuck in the solenoid valve - this would stop the lever from working when you lift it up. If, when you lift the lever up - it feels either very tough - or is too easy to lift - undoing the bottom of the solenoid valve again - and giving everything a good clean out will help.
Do you know what could be causing my group pressure to be maxing at 8 bar (with a. Blind basket) but my boiler gauge is at 9bar (syncronica) thanks for any help.
Hi Austen, thanks for your question. The Boiler Gauge - this is displaying more about the pressure equalling temperature - versus Pressure expected at the Grouphead. If you tested all machines - they would all have a similar offset from the Boiler to the grouphead. If you have an OPV, then you'll be able to increase the pressure in the boiler slightly - to get 9 bar at the grouphead - but know - you'll also be increasing the temperature of the brew water too. Some Machines have better and more precise offsets than others.
Great video. I am one of your NZ based customers and have just got the Vibiemme variant of this direct from Coffee-Sensor as you do not carry it on your site. Do you have any installation tips for this one?
Thanks for sharing! Yes it appears it is a very similar design to the regular Coffee Sensor E61 - use lots of tape around your machine when taking tools to it - to avoid scratches - use a spanner - not multi-grips like in the video ... make sure it's cold when installing ... take you time and give everything a nice clean when you're working through everything 👌
1. If my espresso macine does not have preinfusion, do I still need to replace the spring the lower part of the Group? 2. Will I need finer girinding for flow profile?
1. No. 2. No - flow profile will allow you to slow the amount of water passing through the coffee puck. _ however this may intern allow you to increase the extraction - BY fining up the grind - and not getting over-extraction. So in around about way - you can fine the grind up - but it is not a necessity of having Flow control 👍
Just got mine installed and the first time I heated up my machine with FC in the closed position, my lever would not lift. I slightly opened the FC maybe and 1/8 of a turn and my lever moved freely then. It seems to be working fine now. Maybe the mushroom spring was in a bind or something. Did you notice any issue when you first installed yours?
Yes, the one thing I found was the FC itself was a little stiff, and off centre - so I had to readjust and it got working eventually. - but I have heard similar niggles happening.
If my machine is a directly plumbed in ECM Synchronika, is it necessary to change out the bottom spring to the stronger one supplied with the kit? It seems to be working fine without doing so. If I leave the original bottom spring in, does that affect the pre-infusion at all?
I have a question about vibratory pump machine When i calculated the amount of water dispensed in 30 seconds without the portafilter in place It is so variable Sometimes it is 160 g in 30 seconds Other times it is 190 g in 30 seconds Is that normal to be variable like that
There will be some variability in it yes - as the water cools and rises - it's flow dynamics will change - best to get a good average flow rate as your marker 👌
@@AlternativeBrewing so these variations won't affect my extraction time when keeping everything else constant like type of beans and grind setting and doing the same preparation steps
@@minareda3103 With restriction - comes consistency. As you mentioned in the first test - when water is completely unrestricted - so it can pour out as fast as it can manage - depending on the temperature of the water - this will fluctuate slightly. When it comes to restricting the water, by placing the basket and coffee under it - we create a backpressure - measured by BARS. So in keeping the machine at 9 bars of pressure - and restricting the flow rate - you will see consistency in the recipe you aim for. (HOWEVER - and you can try this - it's best to use the machine at the same warm up time, each time. EG: turn the machine on, wait 10 mins, flush for 5 seconds - then pull your shot .. and do this same process everytime. ... If you were to just turn the machine on, and pull a shot immediately, you'll notice how different the shot will pull. 👌
@@AlternativeBrewing so temp can cause inconsistent shot timing when everything thing else is constant? I mean does it make up to 10 sec difference? Because that is what i am facing and i can't spot where the problem is
I like the idea of measuring flow and then brewing recipes using 1/4 turns. In doing so....is it possible to install the flow control but leave my thermometer installed instead of putting the pressure gauge in? That would be ideal for me
Do you really need the pressure gauge? Surely, you can install the flow control (to regulate flow based on whether you want a slower or faster flow) whilst keeping in the temperature gauge. Am I missing something here?
For me the group head pressure gauge's needle vibrates so it gets blurry and whirs audibly loud which is a bit annoying. It's louder/more noticeable when the machine is heated up. The vibration is differently strong at different pressure. Any ideas? It's a vibratory pump machine, I was under the impression the gauges should have something to "dampen" then vibrations, though?
Yes, it may need a re-adjustment of it placement. Different machines require slightly different depths for the needle to sick in to the flow of water. Sounds like it maybe in to far - quite possibly ? I've used these pon many Vibe pumps with no issue of vibration from the gauge - so I'm thinking it's in the placement.
So if u fit the new spring, there is no pre infusion if you have the valve opened at stock flow rate position? Was the machine rotary or vibe out of interest?
Correct to some degree. Two scenario's here: Some machines will say they have pre-infusion but in fact just have this pre-infusion chamber that holds an approximate amount to of water and it uses this water for the first 2-3 seconds on the puck, whilst the pump ramps up to full pressure- still technically pre-infusion.. Whilst other machines have full electronic pre-infusion where the pump will manage the flow of water directly on to the puck, and in this way - even with the FCD, you could initiate a regular pre-infusion, relying on the pump to switch off after the pre-infusion time has been reached.. than switch back to full pressure after that. Having the FCD does have some inconvenience - such as back flushing the machine. You just have to remember to have the FCD open when you do it. And than, you'll tend to wildly experiment with espresso brewing and often never feel like you're getting anywhere with it - occasionally brewing an incredible shot than never replicating it 😂 wishing you just had steady and reliable parameters - but after awhile you get the hang of it and settle in to one or twostandardd flow profiles.. whichtendd to focus on aparticularr aspect of espresso in general that you prefer drinking. The Bellezza Inizio used in the video was a Vibratory Pump.
Try un-doing the nut when the machine has been off for while. Then try when the machine is hot and up to temperature and vice versa. Perhaps going for a larger tool and better grip, than say a normal alley key - it may also need some WD40 or something similar to loosen it up.
@@AlternativeBrewing sorry it's me again. I am still trying to get my head around how replacing that spring can cut out the pre-infusion. So that sping pushes the gasket up and seal the exhaust chamber until the cam/lever goes down and pushes the shaft down. To get to pre-infusion, the lever and cam would have been in a position where there is no longer pressure applied on the exhaust shaft. What am I not seeing here? Can you please enlightne me?
Hi I just installed one and having problems with the flow device becoming hard to turn when the machine gets hot. And when i opened it. I noticed that the oring (green colored) got deformed and went into the screen on top. When i replaced it with a new one, same thing happened and got stuck again on the screen. So I am not sure about the quality of these Coffee Sensor compared to the ECM or Profitec ones. Would you be able to provide some advice. Thanks.
Hi Joey, the message I'm receiving from a number of sources is that ECM and Profitec are not without their issues. - but if it was difficult from the get go to move it, than there might have been a possibility that the thread of the flow control was not perfectly executed. The deterioration happens from moving from fully open to full closed too quickly under the pressure and the gasket may be compromised at this stage
@@nicks6813 yes is E61 gruop and I know will be fitted to my machine, but my question when put this flow control is it give good results with profetic 500 that is not rotary pump and is it exchanger heating?
It hurts to see you butcher that beautuful heavy chromed brass with a pair of pliers. Use a appropriately sized wrench or adjustable spanner, ideally with some paper on the jaws to prevent marring the surface. You ate goubf to look at that group every tine you pull a shot from now on, do you want to gouge it up?
Do not use a channel lock or water pump plier on your mushroom nut. Use an appropriate sized adjustable wrench (Crescent) with tape applied to the jaws.
I have got this kit from AB, it was easy to install, with my machine it already has a grouphead pressure gauge installed so I did not have to install the grouphead gauge supplied with the kit. My machine only has mannual pre-infusion so there was no need for me to replace the spring in the pre-brew cylinder. I did a few flow testing and I found my machine's water flow pretty much matching the water flow of your video at 6:15 mark, the baseline of my machine is at 1.5 turn of the flow control dial. With the flow control unit I was able to start my extraction around 8 bar pressure then dial back to 1.25 turn to maintain 6 bar pressure then end at about 4. For me the addition of water flow unit in the extraction flow seems to have stop over extraction which produce somewhat slight bitter taste of the dark roast coffee I am using, the coffee extracted is a lot sweeter and smoother. I still have not tried to ramp up the flow to extract at higher water flow and pressure, I will test that in the future. Yes, it is very interesting kit to try and certainly produce a different tasting cup of coffee.
Fantastic feedback! Thanks so much 🫶 and Great to hear you're enjoying tasty coffee !
The video is true to the solution, the greatest difficulty is getting the bottom part in place while applying upward pressure, turning and keeping it straight. It takes a few tries and strong hands are required. I put some electrician's tape over the bottom hole to make it smooth on my palm while pressing up and turning without tearing-up my skin. Thanks for the video! And if you're wondering the flow control is well worth the expense and makes a great espresso even on the first try I could see and taste the difference.
Thanks for watching 👌
Put the lever in horizontal position while getting the threads interlocked. This way there's much reduced pressure on the bottom part 👍
This is the very best video about installing a flow control kit & everything besides you should know !
Thank you very much !
I appreciate that!
Just got this flow control device this week and this video is exactly what I need. GREAT JOB!!
Great to hear!
Just received mine today. Will install tomorrow and start experimenting.
Thank you for this video. Just ordered today 10-14-22 at Alternative Brewing AU for my Lelit MaraX PL62X version 2. Liked & Subscribed.
Good stuff! thanks 😀
This is great! But I like the feel of a lever.
Generally a great instructional video - but I was disappointed to see an agricultural set of grips used to work on on such a fine machine!
A quality wrench would have looked more professional!
I notice you didn’t reinstall the o ring on the new gauge but one was supplied in the kit?
Does this mean only use the O ring if required?
There isn't many obvious change over of o-rings during installation that need to be replaced other than the WHITE gasket under the mushroom seal and possibly the other on the Pre-infusion chamber. The gasket on the hex screw I left in, as well as adding the tape the the pressure gauge - and this helps create a reliable seal as well as the spacing required to line up the pressure gauge in order for it to be levelled appropriately. So long as it's not required - )visually inspecting current o-rings) I recommend keeping the spare green seals from Coffee Sensors pack - in order to have spares once the current ones wera out. This will occur eventually - but o'rings are easy to replace
Great video. Is it possible to purchases parts to repair one of these? I have one that needs the spring and the brass jet inside. Both were damaged by a previous owner of the machine. Thanks!
You may be able to yes, Please email orders@alternativebrewing.com.au and our team will assist you with this 🫶
Thank you for this!
I have a question I could not find online - How Dows the lower spring do the "Automatic pre infusion"?
The lower spring allows the a certain amount of water to fill the back of the E61 Grouphead chamber - let's' say 20mls - and lengthens the time it takes for the pump to pump the water in to the coffee bed - that will create back-pressure. So the time between the pump having to work hard against the back pressure is lengthened by this - whilst water is still able to come into contact with the bed of coffee - so it's here - in that moment you have a pre-infusion of the coffee. Now - some machines have this as a delayed start to the pump - others it's manual - and you have to lift the lever up halfway - activating the grouphead but not turning on the pump. Hope that explains it
Excellent presentation, amigo. I just wish I owned the e61 group head.
You and me both! 😂
I got a Bianca V3 and the needle and paddle are closed and still getting water flow can you help me wi the ? Thanks
thank you! is it compulsory to remove the automatic pre-infusion? it may seem a strange question, but I'm thinking that by not changing it, with the top set to 9 bars, you can do the classic E61 shots.
No it's not actually - you could have FlowSensor set at a particular pressure and have the Automatic Pre-infusion set - and then allow them both to interact with the shot at different times 👌
One should mention that this ”automatic pre-infusion“ depends on wether you have a plumbed-in machine or you are pulling your water from the water tank…
Great content as always! Would love to know more of how you use flow profiling day-to-day, if you do at all, or maybe just a candid take on these tools and methods. Do you even need flow or pressure profiling to get the most out of a lighter roast? Thanks again!
With some use - you get used to the positions of the tap - a gentle low and slow pre-infusion - slow ramp up to 6-8 bars pressure and then again slow ramp down helps extend contact time - doesn't over extract and sweetens the shot up quite nicely - if it's too sweet or sour - pull at a slightly higher pressure for longer 😀
Thanks for the video! A couple of questions:
1. Should the machine be descaled before installation? I use soft water now, but didn't in the past, so there may be some scale.
2. Is there a way to install a grouphead thermometer after installing this kit? It seems the pressure gauge is installed to the same place where the thermometer should go.
Hi there,
1. Descaling is not a bad thing, if you're concerned about it - but it won't effect the FCD as much as it'll effect the boiler efficiency in heating. So unless you have grave concerns about it, than I wouldn't be too concerned. Now you're using lower TDS water, you'll actually be reversing the issue.
2. You are correct, it is the same place, so no... you cannot have the both. I am aware they are working on a dual model,, but have no updates on this at the moment. 2nd best option would be to use the Thermometer for a while to get the best understanding of the machines heating cycles as you can, than you could change over to the FCD when you feel confident you can gauge the temp.
@@AlternativeBrewing Thank you, this is very helpful!
Thank you for the great video. I understand having to turning off the machine during installation, but my machine is plumbed in. Do I also have to cut off the water supply at the source during install?
It would be safer to do so yes 😀
Great video. I’m I correct to state that the Rocket Appartamento does not really have real pre-infusion so I don’t need to replace the spring like in your video?
That is correct
Did you end up installing one on your apartamento? Contemplating it for mine…
@@rand9176 Yes I did install it. Quite simple mod. I can’t say I mastered the flow control recipes but you can always set the lever to provide the same flow as your original machine. I recommend you evaluate your normal flow rate (the amount of liquid out - without portafilter installed - per a set amount of time) of your machine prior modification. That way, you can do the same test at different flow lever settings and find your original flow verses lever position.
@@wizzpet6562 thanks for the reply mate. So with the apartamento you don’t need to do the step with the pre brew cylinder at all? Can leave that as is?
@@rand9176 That’s correct, only replace the top portion.
Hello and thank you for this video, it gives envy. But do you provide examples of extraction profiles with the purchase? Or can you find some on the internet? Thank you.
We do not provide examples other than the ones in the Video. Most you can come across in the net yes
Whole Latte Love has a great video on it on profited 700. As a matter of fact, I suspect, even it’s competition’s tech Mario asked some advice from Mark.
this controls the pressure in the groupe head yes ? not just flow rate ? pressure is related to flow rate ?
The same rules apply to brewing the espresso - whether it is at 9 bars or lower pressure. Yes, this tool will enable you to brew at lower pressures - though your grind size will still play an important role in the speed at which pressure is built up in the group head and the flow of water through the puck is driven.
Pressure and flow rate are dependent on one another. Pressure is measured from behind the puck (in the grouphead) - Flow rate is the measurement on the other side, with the grams per second.
The Flow Control Device uses restriction of the water through the group, managing the flow of water onto the coffee. the flow rate will be determined by the resistance in the ground coffee, that is how fine or coarse it is - as well as the pressure applied to it.
@@AlternativeBrewing yeah cool I get it now...thanks for shearing
@@AlternativeBrewingsorry another question I have a similar machine a Bellezza Chiara....once I install this flow control kit can i still use the PID preinfusion on the machine or do I always have to do a Manuel preinfusion with the flow control nob?
Thanks for the video! In the instructions with mine, it seems to say that the stronger spring is only necessary to be installed when unit doesn't have water reservoir. Is that your understanding?
That is correct When there is a pre-infusion spring in the machine than it requires to be replaced - otherwise not needed 👌
This mod makes me want to get an e61 machine, even if I believe that it's outdated and made initially for a HX machine
Amazing, thanks so much for this.
You're very welcome!
I’ve been flirting with the idea of putting one of these on my Mara X.
The videos I’ve seen about it haven’t been explicit with regards to the flow rate as you’ve explained here (and one by Marc at Whole Latte Love) they usually just talk about watching the pressure gauge, I think that a lot of people might not realise it’s the flow they are supposed to be learning about.
Glad it was helpful! 100% it's the flow. The pressure will adjust according to the resistance in the ground coffee, where you may see a dip in pressure - thinking you have to increase the flow to maintain a consistent pressure - what in fact it is telling you is the coffee bed is becoming less dense as extraction is progressing, so counter-intuitively you in fact want to slightly decrease the flow 👍
@@jerryatrick6127 I just bought one as an upgrade from my rocket appartamento. Delivery hopefully this week and cannot wait 🙂
@@markv7899 Hey Mark, curious to know how you went with this on your Rocket? I too have an appartamento and have been considering this mod for a while. I've only managed to find threads where people are considering adding it to their appartamento - no accounts / feedback on how they went with installing and how they enjoyed the modification. Thanks in advance for your feedback.
@@rand9176 sorry misunderstanding I actually ended up buying the ecm synchronika with flow control as the upgrade from the rocket appartamento. Flow control on any e61 will work the same. I can definitely recommend flow control for several reasons.
1. Its a great tool to minimise any extraction inconsistencies such as channeling leading to over extraction. This is as simple as adding a low flow pre-infusion for a couple of seconds before ramping up to normal pressure.
2. It's a great way to experiment with different flow rates during certain stages of the brew and you can change the taste of beams through a bit of experimentation.
3. If you roast your own coffee long, slow slow pre-infusion can take the edge of super fresh roasts. I would personally recommend a flow control device
@@markv7899 ah I see! I’ve been looking at the synchronika constantly too haha. Worthy upgrade from the apartamento?
Interesting video! I have the FC on my R58 since 2 years already but I unfortunately never checked the default flow rate prior to installation. I'd guess it is the same default value for EVERY R58 on the market so the information should be easy to find on Internet?
Might seem like a dumb question but if 5.66ml/s for 30sec extraction is 168ml but you only get 40g "1:2 ratio" in the cup, where does all that extra water go during the extraction??
My dad installed mine but we never installed the "anti pre-infusion" spring. I've been told it wasn't necessary and I think either Profitech or ECM even didn't bundle the spring in their installation packaging at all and as it seemed complicated we didn't do it. What consequences exactly is it gonna have? Is it just during the initial pre-infusion process? Is it gonna prevent ramping down the flow by the end of the extraction? Can I still use most of my FC functionality?
Thanks for watching.
So, the calculation of 5.66ml / sec would be without coffee extracting. And this will get you a comfortable flow rate of water - that then back ups and creates pressure. The flow rate will in large depend on how quick/easy you can manipulate the pressure. A very slow flow rate of water means it'll take a long time to reach 9 bars of pressure. There are benchmarks for good flow rates on a 9 bar machine. With variable flow rates - it get a little more trial and error. In referring to the flow rate of standard espresso - it's more close to 1.2-1.6g / sec flow rate for extraction.
There are some machines that do not require tis spring to be swapped out. Generally what will happens is the handle on the E61 machine will be harder to open up once the FCD is installed. And you DON"T want to be to be using the E61 mechanical Pre-infusion. where you lift the handle about half way up to open the brew group - but not start the pump. You'll be by-passing this system altogether with the FCD further up the line.
@@AlternativeBrewing Oh thanks for the clear explanation! So if I understood correctly, the spring replacement is ONLY to make the lever easier to lift but if you don't have issue then no big deal? I just wanted to be sure not changing it would completely cancel the FCD or force it to ramp up to 9 bar while ur trying to keep it low for pre-infusion.
I never use the middle position of the levers even if I have a Rotary pump as it seems to do nothing anyway when ur not plumbed in for a higher "inline pressure" :/
I always try to seek 1:2 with 20g in 40g out in 30sec or minimum 25sec. I just realized that the store who sold my R58 3 years ago never adjusted correctly my pump pressure and I was at 10.0 bars instead of 9.0 bars meh... Seems like however I need the pump to be at 9.2 to get 9.0 on the FDC gauge, otherwise 9.0 a+ the pump always give me 8.8 which is a bit annoying for my OCD ^^
@@PanzerIV88 yes ! I know right! Rest assure what ever you're seeing on the FCD gauge is what you're getting through to the coffee. This is why it is such a good gauge to have.
Plus you're lucky, being able to adjust pump pressure etc on a great machine 😀
Hello AB! How it is supposed the O-ring to wear and to be replaced? As fas as I understood from your comments, it is very important to mount the kit properly in order to avoid damage in O-ring of the new mushroom
If it's not seated correctly - it may have caused rips in the seal when tightening - which may render the seal useless - in that case - you'll have to get a new seal. These are easy to come by - just ensure you get the correct size 👌
It will wear over time - with the heating and cooling of the machine - just like the rest of the Espresso machines seals. But if seated correctly - it shouldn't need to be done for many years at least
@@AlternativeBrewing Thank you for the meaningful comment!
I installed it after that the water doesn't flow to the group head. What's the cause?
You may have a spring that is stuck in the solenoid valve - this would stop the lever from working when you lift it up. If, when you lift the lever up - it feels either very tough - or is too easy to lift - undoing the bottom of the solenoid valve again - and giving everything a good clean out will help.
Do you know what could be causing my group pressure to be maxing at 8 bar (with a. Blind basket) but my boiler gauge is at 9bar (syncronica) thanks for any help.
Hi Austen, thanks for your question. The Boiler Gauge - this is displaying more about the pressure equalling temperature - versus Pressure expected at the Grouphead. If you tested all machines - they would all have a similar offset from the Boiler to the grouphead. If you have an OPV, then you'll be able to increase the pressure in the boiler slightly - to get 9 bar at the grouphead - but know - you'll also be increasing the temperature of the brew water too. Some Machines have better and more precise offsets than others.
Great video. I am one of your NZ based customers and have just got the Vibiemme variant of this direct from Coffee-Sensor as you do not carry it on your site. Do you have any installation tips for this one?
Thanks for sharing! Yes it appears it is a very similar design to the regular Coffee Sensor E61 - use lots of tape around your machine when taking tools to it - to avoid scratches - use a spanner - not multi-grips like in the video ... make sure it's cold when installing ... take you time and give everything a nice clean when you're working through everything 👌
@@AlternativeBrewing Tudor from Coffee Sensor was also very helpful. All installed now and I am having fun playing with different flow profiles
1. If my espresso macine does not have preinfusion, do I still need to replace the spring the lower part of the Group?
2. Will I need finer girinding for flow profile?
1. No.
2. No - flow profile will allow you to slow the amount of water passing through the coffee puck. _ however this may intern allow you to increase the extraction - BY fining up the grind - and not getting over-extraction. So in around about way - you can fine the grind up - but it is not a necessity of having Flow control 👍
Just got mine installed and the first time I heated up my machine with FC in the closed position, my lever would not lift. I slightly opened the FC maybe and 1/8 of a turn and my lever moved freely then. It seems to be working fine now. Maybe the mushroom spring was in a bind or something. Did you notice any issue when you first installed yours?
Yes, the one thing I found was the FC itself was a little stiff, and off centre - so I had to readjust and it got working eventually. - but I have heard similar niggles happening.
@@AlternativeBrewing Thanks! Mine is working fine now.
Will this suit R58 Cinquantotto
If my machine is a directly plumbed in ECM Synchronika, is it necessary to change out the bottom spring to the stronger one supplied with the kit? It seems to be working fine without doing so. If I leave the original bottom spring in, does that affect the pre-infusion at all?
No - sounds like - if it's working fine - it'll be okay
I have a question about vibratory pump machine
When i calculated the amount of water dispensed in 30 seconds without the portafilter in place
It is so variable
Sometimes it is 160 g in 30 seconds
Other times it is 190 g in 30 seconds
Is that normal to be variable like that
There will be some variability in it yes - as the water cools and rises - it's flow dynamics will change - best to get a good average flow rate as your marker 👌
@@AlternativeBrewing so these variations won't affect my extraction time when keeping everything else constant like type of beans and grind setting and doing the same preparation steps
@@minareda3103 With restriction - comes consistency. As you mentioned in the first test - when water is completely unrestricted - so it can pour out as fast as it can manage - depending on the temperature of the water - this will fluctuate slightly.
When it comes to restricting the water, by placing the basket and coffee under it - we create a backpressure - measured by BARS. So in keeping the machine at 9 bars of pressure - and restricting the flow rate - you will see consistency in the recipe you aim for. (HOWEVER - and you can try this - it's best to use the machine at the same warm up time, each time. EG: turn the machine on, wait 10 mins, flush for 5 seconds - then pull your shot .. and do this same process everytime. ... If you were to just turn the machine on, and pull a shot immediately, you'll notice how different the shot will pull. 👌
@@AlternativeBrewing so temp can cause inconsistent shot timing when everything thing else is constant? I mean does it make up to 10 sec difference? Because that is what i am facing and i can't spot where the problem is
Is it a Belleza specific kit?
no - specific to E61 Groups though 👌
@@AlternativeBrewing Can you post a link?
Thanks mate. Would you recommand pairing this with a vibrationpump on the puristika?
Yes, absolutely
@@AlternativeBrewing Thanks for the quick reply mate
I like the idea of measuring flow and then brewing recipes using 1/4 turns. In doing so....is it possible to install the flow control but leave my thermometer installed instead of putting the pressure gauge in? That would be ideal for me
I do not believe so no, it's one or the other unfortunately
Do you really need the pressure gauge? Surely, you can install the flow control (to regulate flow based on whether you want a slower or faster flow) whilst keeping in the temperature gauge. Am I missing something here?
For me the group head pressure gauge's needle vibrates so it gets blurry and whirs audibly loud which is a bit annoying. It's louder/more noticeable when the machine is heated up. The vibration is differently strong at different pressure. Any ideas? It's a vibratory pump machine, I was under the impression the gauges should have something to "dampen" then vibrations, though?
Yes, it may need a re-adjustment of it placement. Different machines require slightly different depths for the needle to sick in to the flow of water. Sounds like it maybe in to far - quite possibly ? I've used these pon many Vibe pumps with no issue of vibration from the gauge - so I'm thinking it's in the placement.
Did you solve this? I'm having the same issue.
@@Joe_Andrus unfortunately I solved it by using a different gauge, which also vibrates but only minimally, and not audible.
So if u fit the new spring, there is no pre infusion if you have the valve opened at stock flow rate position? Was the machine rotary or vibe out of interest?
Correct to some degree. Two scenario's here: Some machines will say they have pre-infusion but in fact just have this pre-infusion chamber that holds an approximate amount to of water and it uses this water for the first 2-3 seconds on the puck, whilst the pump ramps up to full pressure- still technically pre-infusion.. Whilst other machines have full electronic pre-infusion where the pump will manage the flow of water directly on to the puck, and in this way - even with the FCD, you could initiate a regular pre-infusion, relying on the pump to switch off after the pre-infusion time has been reached.. than switch back to full pressure after that.
Having the FCD does have some inconvenience - such as back flushing the machine. You just have to remember to have the FCD open when you do it. And than, you'll tend to wildly experiment with espresso brewing and often never feel like you're getting anywhere with it - occasionally brewing an incredible shot than never replicating it 😂 wishing you just had steady and reliable parameters - but after awhile you get the hang of it and settle in to one or twostandardd flow profiles.. whichtendd to focus on aparticularr aspect of espresso in general that you prefer drinking.
The Bellezza Inizio used in the video was a Vibratory Pump.
The type of pump does it has on your espresso machine? Rotary or vibration pump? Thanks for the video.
This machine had a vibration pump. It will work with both.
@@AlternativeBrewing yes i know it works on both but i noticed on several rotary based espresso machine, it is much more responsive.
I can’t seem to loosen the stainless steel screw with the Allen key. It’s stuck solid. Any suggestions?
Try un-doing the nut when the machine has been off for while. Then try when the machine is hot and up to temperature and vice versa. Perhaps going for a larger tool and better grip, than say a normal alley key - it may also need some WD40 or something similar to loosen it up.
@@AlternativeBrewing thanks. I finally turned the machine on to warm it up and it seemed to have loosened it. 👍
By replacing the spring, does it stop the line pressure preinfusion?
That's correct. So if there is no pre-infusion than the spring is not required.
@@AlternativeBrewing cheers mate.
@@AlternativeBrewing sorry it's me again. I am still trying to get my head around how replacing that spring can cut out the pre-infusion. So that sping pushes the gasket up and seal the exhaust chamber until the cam/lever goes down and pushes the shaft down. To get to pre-infusion, the lever and cam would have been in a position where there is no longer pressure applied on the exhaust shaft. What am I not seeing here? Can you please enlightne me?
@@AlternativeBrewing all good, I think I got it figured out. Cheers mate.
Is this compatible with the Rocket R58 Cinquantotto?
Yes it is 👍
Yes works great
Will this work with a heat exchanger…. Meaning will temperature still stay consistent
Yes 👌 Temperature will fluctuate more with a HX but no more than regular brewing.
Hi I just installed one and having problems with the flow device becoming hard to turn when the machine gets hot. And when i opened it. I noticed that the oring (green colored) got deformed and went into the screen on top. When i replaced it with a new one, same thing happened and got stuck again on the screen. So I am not sure about the quality of these Coffee Sensor compared to the ECM or Profitec ones. Would you be able to provide some advice. Thanks.
I would suggest sending your messages directly to your supplier, if you got it directly from Coffee-Sensor you can WhatsApp them.
Hi Joey, the message I'm receiving from a number of sources is that ECM and Profitec are not without their issues. - but if it was difficult from the get go to move it, than there might have been a possibility that the thread of the flow control was not perfectly executed. The deterioration happens from moving from fully open to full closed too quickly under the pressure and the gasket may be compromised at this stage
Hi Joey! What is the brand of your machine? Did you fix the reported issue?
I'm in Vietnam, I want to buy this product, what should I do?
you can order online & we'll ship to you anywhere in the world 👌
@@AlternativeBrewing How do you order?
Is it compatible with profitec pro 500??
My exact question. I would think so, as it's E61, but good to confirm!
@@nicks6813 yes is E61 gruop and I know will be fitted to my machine, but my question when put this flow control is it give good results with profetic 500 that is not rotary pump and is it exchanger heating?
Well planned presentation, but with a wrong tool.
Flow control has nothing to do with pressure control? Doesn't it?
You're right. Pressure comes from how hard the pump works. Flow derives from the resistance the coffee bed has against the pressure of the water.
Must get busy with my coffee…
It hurts to see you butcher that beautuful heavy chromed brass with a pair of pliers.
Use a appropriately sized wrench or adjustable spanner, ideally with some paper on the jaws to prevent marring the surface.
You ate goubf to look at that group every tine you pull a shot from now on, do you want to gouge it up?
Your logo is unpleasant to look at…
Does this works with ECM puristika?
It works with all E61 machines…