Is Mind Blindness (Aphantasia) Linked to ADHD?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 9 чер 2024
- 00:00 Introduction to the Topic
00:45 What is Aphantasia?
01:20 What other cognitive or psychological problems are linked to aphantasia
07:45 Why would aphantasia be linked to ADHD?
10:00 A call to study aphantasia in people with ADHD - there are no studies to date
11:07 Conclusion
This short video explores the hypothesis that ADHD may be linked to a weaker or even absent capacity for visual mental imagery, known as aphantasia. I define the term aphantasia here then discuss some of the other mental and psychological problems that have been linked to aphantasia. I then explain why I wonder if ADHD might involve this sort of mind blindness (aphantasia) as a consequence of the difficulties with nonverbal working memory (especially visual imagery) that are part of the larger difficulties with executive functioning seen in ADHD. Is this problem with nonverbal working memory a result of or possibly worsened by aphantasia? No one knows as there is no research on this issue. I conclude by asking viewers to encourage any students or researchers they known to study this question.
References:
Use Google Scholar to search the journals where you will find many good articles on aphantasia and its correlates.
I've suffered from ADHD for 50 years and if there is one thing my mind never, ever, stops doing is generating mental imagery.
but do you have a narrator of your life constantly yapping and yapping, and when it stops describing what is currently happening to you, it's to tell you how stupid you are, and how much it can't believe you just did/said that?
I also came to the comments section to say the very same thing!!!
Same here! Only I've suffered from ADHD for almost 43 years.
Same here! I wish the imagery would stop sometimes. The other day, I couldn't remember the term "sun-tan lotion" but my brain sent be thousands of images of bottles of different colours, and lying on the beach, and sun beds, and memories of holidays and the sensation of sun on my skin and how I didn't like this oil-based version I once had that came in a brown bottle but I did like this cream spray that came on a blue bottle. It's like, thanks for all that, but what I really wanted was just the three words "sun-tan lotion" (sun-block for any Americans).
This, however when I need to imagine something ON PURPOSE in the middle of my executive block, I literally can’t see anything except maybe most banal images and plots. Like in a moment I lose any ability to productively phantasise. As a student of cinema school I suffer from that a lot. It mostly occurs when I feel extreme anxiety (for example, anxiety to fail with my “dumb” idea), so when it hits me hard I turn from one of the most creative persons in my class to an absolute blockhead.
I have both, and honestly it was absolutely more earth shattering to me to realize everyone else was seeing actual pictures in their minds when they said "picture this" or "visualize this" - I felt like people had this incredible super power and I had been sitting there like an idiot thinking all of those were metaphors. Learning I had ADHD was much easier to swallow
mgod same, the idea people can have genuine colors and pictures in their heads is insane to me and I'm kinda jealous
nod. I close friend has hyperphantasia. We saw Villanieu's (sp??) Dune, and he absolutely got more from the experience than the vibes I walked away with.
I have hyperphantasia- and extremely long/vivid retention of imagery. My unattenuated hyperphantasia causes executive dysregulation and ADHD-like symptoms . . . because I sometimes cannot devote more than about 5% of cognition to intentional/engaged thinking. In fact, I’m taking two ADHD meds daily now . . . 40mg Vyvanse and 150mg bupropion twelve hours apart.
My primary diagnosis is autism spectrum disorder which often causes the findings of allistic human subject studies to be the opposite of my neurology.
Look into toxic heavy metal theory for what's causing these mental disabilities. Depending on concentration, type and location of these metals in your brain they can cause either ADHD, Autism, Aphantasia and so on...
Interesting. I have autism with aphantasia, brains are such complex things
One of the first things I wondered when I learned of aphantasia years ago (once I got over the fact that others actually experience imagined sensory information in their mind) was "is this why my working memory is so non existent?".
Another was "is this why I and many other autistic people didn't do imagination play as kids?"
This was incredibly validating. I have ADHD and aphantasia and it makes so much sense that the two could be connected. I suppose if anyone looking to study this needs a case study, hit me up. I'm already working on an unrelated dissertation, so it couldn't be me!
when my husband died I eventually sought the help of a psychologist who soon diagnosed me - at age 63 - with ADHD. It was an amazing moment in my life when I could understand my lifelong history of underachievement.
At the same time I was devastated to realize that I had so little visual memory of my beloved husband who I had spent so much of my life with and knew so well. I realised that other people who hardly knew him could recall times and events which they shared with him far more vividly than I could. My memories were of vague 'snapshot' images of him -- often based on actual photographs, rather than video' style recollections of events or just everyday life. It has been a great sadness to me and something which I have felt so guilty about and not wished to tell other people about.
I had never thought of it as being related to the ADHD, but rather some horrible fault in my relationship with him which I could not identify or understand.
As someone with no capacity for visual imagery, (and ADHD) it was quite the trip to learn that "mind's eye" "imagine a beach" "picture this" etc. were not JUST metaphors. When I read metaphors in stories or poems I think about the ideas of the things or what the author/artist is trying to say. A great example I saw online was what do you think of when you think of Justice. Do you picture a judge or do you go to the abstract idea? For most of my life I had no idea people could even pick the first option. On top of the fact that is what most people can do is a perpetual mindfuck
Yes! I had always thought that "picture a thing" meant "think about the visual aspects of a thing"
Yeah. It's kind of sad, when Mum passed and I couldn't remember her face and realised other people could.
But I have my own ways to remember the things important to me, so I wasnt too sad for long.
Yep, same here.
Ditto. Blew my mind. Honestly, I still have trouble believing others literally _see_ things in their mind.
I've consumed a lot of ayahuasca and most people who do that have amazing stories of the visions they've had during ceremony--full of people and animals and spirits and whatever else--and describe them in vivid detail. And there's a painter who has painted his visions and they're absolutely beautiful. So I'm a little jealous. The most I ever get is some colour, usually brown or purple, sometimes with vague geometric patterns. It's kind of like an empty computer desktop and I'm opening up text files and working on ideas that way.
I was recently arguing in the comments of a video about theory of mind using the act of imagining a triangle as an example. Dualists (people who believe the mind is immaterial, ie made of 'mental stuff' and not reducible to the properties of normal matter) kept saying stuff like, _"there's actually a triangle there. But where is it and what's it made out of? Not matter, obviously, so it must be 'mental stuff'."_ Smh. There ain't no triangle. It's just a representation of a triangle. I know because I don't see a triangle when I imagine one. I just hold onto the idea of what a triangle is. It helps that I'm a software developer and am very familiar with how real things like triangles can be represented in the abstract.
@@nuynobi 🤣🤣 very similar experience
Although there are no journal publications on ADHD and aphantasia, I did find KE Bates' PhD thesis covering Mental Imagery and Visual Working Memory development in ADHD children, "Picture this: an investigation of the neural and behavioural correlates of mental imagery in childhood and adulthood with implications for children with ADHD," which found ADHD children exhibited typical development patterns. That obviously shouldn't deter anyone else from investigating further, but I wanted to shout out this person for their efforts even though their specific investigation relating to ADHD is not published in a journal.
Thank you! People hear these things and think its a completed theory
I've been with this channel since its inception. How thrilling it is to see you inch up to almost 100,000 subscribers, Dr. B! It's remarkable that so many of us around the globe can tune in for free to learn more about ADHD from one of the world's leading experts. The internet has brought plenty of rubbish into our lives but here we have an example of knowledge -- and humour! -- being disseminated to anyone who can be bothered to watch and listen. What a blessing! Thank you.
As someone with ADHD, my ability to visualize things - even mechanical (with moving parts) is really good. I can build stuff mentally to know how it will look when I create things. I'm just one person so take it for what it's worth.
Nah I agree with you we have problem doing stuff not imagining stuff... I can imagine a billion thing on demand
I played "how many gears moving each other correctly can I imagine" when I was bored in school as a kid
I am like this too.
It is the inability to use that imagery to guide ones own behaviour which is inhibited. Not the imagery itself.
i can fully imagine moving systems, but I cant "picture" them, if that makes sense
I'm a 60-year old ADHDer and mental images, often incredibly detailed, often moving, accompany pretty much every thought and certainly every memory. So much so that at times it's like watching a movie. I like it.
me too
I'm ADHD with hyperphantasia (and uncontrollable daydreaming, which gets in the way of reality at times throughout my life)
I daydream alot even with aphantasia. Like i have entire other lifes i live in my head and sometimes i will just randomly stop and think about them
@@Thesktre9me too
Allistic ?
I have a severe ADHD, and let me tell you that seeing image is my greatest talent, I can imagine a billion things so vividly like they're almost real in a second!
But self-motivation is another game, always have to trick myself with external motivation my internal motivation is not functioning...
Same
I'm not sure u understood any of the video. It is the inability to use that imagery to guide ones own behaviour which is inhibited. Not the imagery itself.
@@gravity00x Yes that's nonverbal working memory, but that's not what it's about
He's talking about the ability to see an image, visual imagination
@@gravity00xplease give some concrete examples
@@OuiofcourseCan you describe “nonverbal working memory” please?
I have aphantasia and ADHD. I had no idea other people think in pictures and feelings- my internal monologue is going nonstop all the time. That being said- not being able to visualize something does not diminish my capacity to imagine something. If you ask me to visualize a red triangle, I can’t “see it”. But, I know what red is and I know what a triangle is so I can imagine it. I can manipulate an object or idea in my mind, but it is throw “knowing” (for lack of a better word) and through “seeing” with my mind’s eye.
It is my opinion that you (and me) are in fact experiencing the same thing everyone else is (most people) it's just that we *describe* it differently. I believe this is a semantic difference not a real difference.
I'm like you. I describe my experience as "I can't 'see it', but I can see it sort of. I can describe every detail of it, but it exists somewhere abstract, it's not like it's an object right in front of me."
I believe a related topic is this: Where in physical space would you say your mind is? Like, relative to your body. Where in physical space, approximately what direction, is your mind/your thoughts?
@SolidSiren I'm not sure that's the case. Looking at aphantasia or vivid imagery testing, it speaks about how "vivid" an image is in your minds eye. This scales from 5 (as vivid as if you are actually seeing it) to 0 (you don't see an image but "know" you are thinking about the object).
It sounds like you both aren't seeing any vivid imagery to speak of but rather just "know" you are thinking about something. For what it's worth, I'm the same.
@@Lasidar Thanks for the reply. I know about the scale of vividness. But after talking with my family and friends at length about it, I still think people are just using different words to describe a similar experience. You say it sounds like I'm not seeing any vivid imagery, but I am. I just say it differently. I can describe every aspect of the apple, or a dragon, or a 3 headed cow. 🤔 I find this topic very interesting.
I wonder if people with aphantasia dream quite differently from others? What do you think?
@@Lasidar yep. can confirm the way these folks are talking it's clear they don't know what a mind's eye or mental imagery actually is.
reading the comment about manipulating a red triangle, I see an actual red triangle briefly spinning around.
It's not in front of me. It's not at all indistinguishable from a real object it's very clearly an imagination. But I do see it for a moment.
@@steveheidenreich9183do you close your eyes and then you see it?
I was very excited to see this video, thank you. I would love more scientists to look into SDAM - Severely deficient autobiographical memory as well which can co-occur with aphantasia - I personally struggle with both and it has a big impact on my life. Not many drs or therapists know much about them and more research is needed.
Now that’s something that I find very relevant and true as well. Do you have certain time periods in your life that you don’t or barely remember and if so how long are they ago on average or can you explain in a little more detail?
Thank you very much in advance
So most of my children are adhd / autistic and I had to do a whole lot of paperwork and I really really struggled going back to when they were younger and remembering all the details. I have also been very big for photographing and looking back on them and I worked out that this was me compensating for the deficit. While on the journey for my children I went down the rabbit hole and was watching lots on neurodiversities and came across a videos on aphantasia and I was like wait what.. People actually see things in their head, I always thought it was a figure of speech. Then I went on a deep dive on that after my husband said he can see and adapt things in his head and came across SDAM, it was a very emotional experience working out my brain isn't like the norm. I can recall some photos but not the actual event it self. There are a few stories that I have told consistently about my childhood and can again retell but not relive. There is so much of my life missing from my memories which leaves me feeling pretty empty.
@@toni-leepadman3777 I can understand what you wrote so well and this is an incredibly hard realization in addition to all the other struggles caused by ADHD. It makes you wonder how incredible the life of people who don’t have these neurological disadvantages must be in so many ways. Just imagining that people can actually relive the most beautiful memories in their heads and see it crystal clear as if those people and memories would be right in front of them again and people with ADHD cannot experience this their entire life - is very sad, tragic and hurtful
I believe it to be separate to adhd, my husband was meant to be tested as a child but because he was succeeding they decided not to proceed with testing, he very much struggles to this day, even though he is very smart. He needs a lot of help setting up strategies to help with the executive functioning which he's been implementing and trying to perfect for years now. He's not willing to look into medication and believes he'll figure it out so yeah he's currently working on a goal 75 hard and he's determined to achieve that. He is more on the hyperphantasia side of the scale.
And I'm really sorry about the hurt that this thing sdam causes you. It can be a tough road when you first come to realise. I try so hard to focus on what's happening around me sometime hoping so badly it will cross over and become a memory that I can treasure. I look at my children who are so close to becoming adults/teenagers and just wish I could remember their faces when they were younger, I can't hear their voices either 😢
(from the contest of adhd/asd) I do have imagery in a "barely existing" level. (I do see info that this thing can be trained and it would be a goal for future) The interesting part is - it was completely gone when I was on bupropeon medication.
What a wonderful day this was!!! Love you both too much 🥹🥰
I've wondered lately @Russell Berkley. Lots of people with ASC have executive functioning problems, which is essentially ADHD.
My son with ASC /ADHD definately cannot picture a description of someone else's experience. I know that's theory of mind. But that feels like a huge difference between us!
He is however, highly creative with art, lots of visual imagery and is amazing at seeing how things work, going back to my earlier comment, maybe some people with ADHD have Aphantasia, but judging by the comments on here, a lot have the opposite experience!
Its about time. Thank you for this.
I am 34 years old, I already know about aphantasia because I realized a few years ago that despite dreaming with images, when I try to form images in my mind consciously I encounter enormous difficulty, or I simply can only create an internal dialogue... I was diagnosed with ADHD recently and I have also been looking into the possible implications that these two conditions may have on each other. I read that mental imagery requires initial processing in the frontal and parietal cortex before recruiting other areas of the brain
Thank you Dr Barkley!
I am so grateful for Daniel recommending your youtube channel during Dr Grorge Simon's channel. 🌹
I'm an artist with ADHD and a very hyperactive imagination (possibly hyperphantasia?)
but is that the only way you think, do you also have a voice narrating events? or criticizing you constantly
@mimosveta yes to all of these, while having another "browser tab" in my brain where it's vividly replaying random scenes from the episode I watched yesterday, another tab where I'll hear a random music I like, another tab where I imagine a new art idea i want to draw, and another one where I'm imagining the exact sequence of tasks I'm about to do when I go downstairs so I don't forget (spoilers: I'll forget about it) but some of these tabs will randomly disappear in my brain and reappear again for the next 5 minutes 🤷♂️🤷♂️
@@mimosveta yes I do
Yes, it seems strange to think of how often ADHD is associated with artists and then to simultaneously imagine it is associated with inability to generate internal worlds. My issue is more so "maladaptive daydreaming" where I should be doing work, but my brain would rather think about poems, and pictures, and the soft breath of a woman whispering in my ear, or the taste of an avocado and bacon sandwich on sourdough, or floating naked in a pool on a Florida summer night.
@@mrPuddiCake that sounds tiring! ( And potentially exciting, in some ways.
I probably used to be more like that. Trying to write something based on a load of papers I've read is a bit like having loads of tabs open though. My mind wants to follow ideas that interest me and go off at a tangent! Are you good at getting your art finished or do your other tabs distract you?
It's very interesting to me. I don't think I have any aphantasia, but I know my visual imagery was very scattered and tough to focus on before medication, and still I struggle to tell if I'm visualizing or just mentally describing, but it's made a huge impact on my ability to recall if I locked the front door, where I put my phone, etc. Alternatively, it sometimes feels like there's so much vivid imagery from the past decades I can't hone in on a single one because it's shifting and erratic.
Either way, I did notice in myself and have seen anecdotes online, that spending extended time in VR environments where you can observe a lot of interesting and novel details (e.g., Skyrim, No Man's Sky) helped to temporarily give much more vivid mental imagery and even added a layer of depth that wasn't there before. I would be very curious to see if there is some foundation in the heightened focus and sensory novelty afforded by VR has some short term effects on these mechanisms.
This is wild, I've often seen entire my own paintings, movies, replay events and modify them in my head weekly and complete. I often see solutions/pictures in my head before typing them down, having to translate them from what I see into equations or words. But at the same time I do have time blindness.
Very interesting about the learning. I have aphantasia and simply can't learn by watching someone do something, I need to do it myself to learn.
Ah, my second favourite topic. I was training in some hypnotherapy after being diagnosed with ADHD and was extremely frustrated with the central tenet of visualisation. It had become apparent that people actually SEE something when they're asked to visualise, and that seeing blackness was not a thing.
I posed this exact question re ADHD and Aphantasia 2 years back to the Aphanstasia forum but it was also recognised as an unstudied area so it seems it hasn't moved much. It made sense that at least some ADHDers have co-occuring Aphantasia given that it all involves neural networks.
Where I may differ on the memory component (though I like the WM connection) is that we have to differentiate between long term memory and descriptive detail because there is a tendency to link Aphantasia to SDAM. I have an almost extreme Aphantasia yet have an unfortunately excellent AM - BUT this AM lacks detail (I can remember scenarioes but can't recall the scene in a picture detail - I "think" the scene but wouldnt be able to tell what clothes i was wearing, what the scenery looks like etc).
I hear you! Also have aphantasia & ADHD and trained in hypnotherapy - and also in visual methods!
At some point I realised I'm not the only person in the training who just cannot tap into the visual and other imagery processes (I just thought I was a really 'difficult subject' for a while!).
Got so interested in the subject that - as a researcher by background - I started my own research project into the topic 😆 (#helloADHD)
So yeah, now I'm on a mission to educate the hypnotherapy community about aphantasia and how we can best work with aphantasics so that they don't have to go through the - why is this not working for me??? - thing 🙃
BTW, amazing that you have really good autobiographical memory - can I ask if you have aphantasia across all internal senses (so no ability to visualise, touch, smell, taste or hear internally) or is can you tap into one or more of them (apart from the visual)?
@@paulinatrevena4163 I'm not sure that I always find my AM useful, because I am sure you can see how that and ADHD together can be challenging 😂
I would say that I am total Aphantasic (with qualifier) because visualisation seemed like an "obvious" deficiency given its widespread use but I was even more gobsmacked that people experienced their other senses realistically. So even in hypno training I always assumed that when they used the other senses it was metaphorical.
The qualifier is on hearing because I am not sure what people mean with an internal voice. I have a perpetual inner voice that I have to distract when I need to focus but have never really felt like I "hear" it in the way people talk about sound - I "sense" my constant chatter in the same way that I try to explain my memory. Its not discrete senses (I see, hear or smell actual) but an abstract "sense". My hypno facilitator tried to "prove" that we all "see" by asking me to describe my house and number of windows - and I did but I explained its not that I am "seeing" it but that I am "sensing" it...
And there we have just how difficult it is to use language to explain something that we don't really have words for...sorry for the essay.
Oooh how fun. I got an email just these days from the study questionnaire on Aphantasia and Hyperphantasia, which I (an ADHD brain) participated in. I'm on the "hyper" end of this. So cool to hear back from that topic!
Very interesting, I have been wondering if I have some form of aphantasia for some time. I might be in the group with reduced capacity for mental imagery. I can place myself in the space of a memory to some extent, but the images are very vague and fleeting, more like silhouettes in a dense fog. How would one measure and quantify these subjective experiences in a scientific way?
I have both Aphantasia and ADHD....only realized I had Aphantasia when I was probably 35 and just discovered I have ADHD at 38. Let's just say I feel like I'm just finally learning how to live.
I have ADHD and total aphantasia, I can't visualise anything whatsoever.
I think this topic is interesting.
Female, ADHD, no other known conditions.
In terms of mentally stimulating things, visual imagery is fine, picturing numbers in my head is quite good, it is like I have a dual monitor set up, good at recalling and imagining feeling. Not good with recalling words/letters (I can do it but it's a strain), and I can't recall smells very well.
I love this conversation.
If aphantasia were my only issue, i could've considered it a superpower in some sense. By removing all superficial details it kind of forces abstract thinking and that feels kind of important in programmers job.
Unfortunately, I can't make full use of it, due to brain fog, dissociation, executive disfunction, etc.
Interesting, I have ADHD and work both as a doctor and an artists , I don't find it difficult to generate mental imagery for doing my art although it sometimes feel a little restricted. But I do resonate with the part where you talked about being unable to elect empathy by verbal descriptions and get emotional over it , and it sometimes shows when working with patients as I can't find much empathy towards their struggle and what they descripe , however I do feel empathic when their struggles are visually visible to my eyes more , it lefts off the effort of trying to imagine it and kinda skips a step towards that connection.
I definitely have both full aphantasia (no senses) and also very strong ADHD issues!
I often have to speak, write or perform an action or thought. I do not have difficulty generating the images. It is more an intense overload of every possible action or reaction
Fascinating. I've always had both ADHD and aphantasia. I do have the capacity for (rather weak/muted) visualization, but it requires conscious effort/concentration and are not naturally occurring.
Learning via imitation isn't an issue. Recalling sensations, regardless of type, most certainly is. Specific sights, smells, sounds, textures ... I simply cannot encode these in memory. At best, I can identify sensory stimuli, e.g., the smell of coffee, but I am wholly incapable of recalling that smell. I know what my wife said today, but not verbatim. In lieu of sense-based memories, I instead imprint conclusions of internal analyses, affective responses to stimuli, & general outlines of narratives. I definitely have less detail in memory, episodic or otherwise as mentioned at 6:40 timestamp. Alternatively, conceptualizing abstract concepts seem to easy for me. Writing is a painfully slow process - I lose my thoughts far faster than I can pen/type them. Likewise, mnemonics memory tricks are materially equivalent to brute force memorization. Likely exacerbated by interaction of aphantasia with ADHD, I lose my train of thought quite often, and I estimate that I can only reliably hold two concurrent discrete items in mental queue with any true ... resolution? detail? Two items with detail, 4 fairly vague, or up to about 7 very vague at most. Learning a new phone number is an active exercise in imagining how I'd move my fingers when actually calling, where the numbers are on a 10-key pad, not what the numbers look like.
I never considered these two conditions may be linked, only that it's problematic when both are present. Aphantasia forces me to lean on nonverbal working memory as it cuts out access to verbal working memory, and ADHD by definition undermines the reliability of nonverbal memory.
I'm a psych undergrad and was literally thinking this is something I could base my final year research project on. I also have ADHD (diagnosed at 47) and aphantasia.
I’m absolutely a diagnosed ADHD girly with aphantasia. I wish so much that I will one day be able to see an image in my mind but I just can’t. I do get a sensation in my mind that I can only describe as “seeing” but it’s not visual. I just don’t have a word for it. It’s like a different form of thought than my usual inner dialog.
Not even in a million years I would think my ADHD and Aphantasia were related somehow. Both of them can be really incapacitating in certain aspects of my life
I will certainly keep this in mind. My DCPsych is on pause at the moment, and i've been bouncing around different ideas for my research thesis. I was only diagnosed with ADHD last year (i'm 35 now), and also only recently discovered how poor my visualisation is in comparison to others. It's like watching a video in 240p. But I mostly only can conjure up still images and I have to focus really hard on specific areas to try to get any semblance of detail. I mostly think in concepts and feelings with some vague, non-detailed images thrown in. When i'm reading a book, I imagine the character as a basic body shape and hair colour / length but there's not really a face unless I really really try hard to think about it. And then as I move on from one aspect to another, the poor amount of detail i've put together is already gone.
I always thought I had didn't have dreams and could not imagine things, but when I got hyperfixated on lucid dreaming and started writing down my dreams, I noticed how from 0 my dream memory became 1080p 60fps with details and stuff. Obviously eventually enthusiasm dropped off later and I am back to the state of barely able to imagine even a stain of an apple, I think for the most part it is possible to develop imagination even with ADHD (though ofc everyone is different and maybe just unlucky), at least if you had bits of it available before.
So interesting! I have asd/adhd diagnosis, from a young age i remeber having a very vivid imagination to the point that iam not sure from time to time who "controled the boat' me or the images. As i aged this "perk" changed but the pattern remained , i can imagine anythink my scenarios are just more realistic. Now about imagery and action , i can picture myself doing anythink but when the time comes to do the thing, if i dont enjoy it i wont recall the previous memory-imagery on the contrary if i enjoy it, i will recall it and enrich it with music , even more details to the point that i will reach an euphoric state of "self pleasuring" with the details of the imagery.
I have aphantasia and ADHD, but none of the listed related conditions seem to apply. Rather -- and this is something I've heard in descriptions of typical aphantasia -- my mental imagery shuts off while I am awake. I can dream visually, but as I wake up, it gets shut down. And as I am falling asleep, I start to have mental images appear. Losing access to interesting dreams can be frustrating when I don't want them to go away, but I do get that one would not want to "remember" a dream as though it were real. I can imagine sound, and in fact, this can be intrusive...having a musical sound track running unless I intentionally attempt to control it. Mental rehearsal of movement also seems not to have a necessary connection to visualization, because what one is rehearsing is muscle movement. It does not help me to "practice" to imagine seeing a person doing it...what I need is to go through the motor actions, but disconnected from producing motor signals.
Oh my, THIS! You sound closest to what I experience.
I only heard of this within the last couple years.
I couldn't do math in my head. I can't see images when asked to imagine. I have a hard time with facial memory. In college I took a problem solving class and it shot my grades up. At university I had my first professor who suggested I was dyslexic..
I can't recall large parts of my childhood and although nobody ever suggested ADHD I had a problem daydreaming or dissocociating.
I have to do to learn. I can visualize dreams and it has always been upsetting when I lose what I was deep in thought about.
I can hear sound memories I suppose. I didn't know why it would happen, as well as feelings.
I used to focus on photo albums but when visiting they were different, in reverse or something.
I don't know what the take away is but I really feel studies need to be done.
I have both too. I have been interested in researching the topic I am a master student at the moment so I will explore this further:)
Do physically blind people have good non-verbal memories? I have aphantasia, store everything in three dimensional texture-based maps, and am probably less dependent on vision than “normal” sighted people.
Sometimes I think that ASD and ADHD are especially challenging because society is like a bunch of eagles finding penguins defective just because they can’t fly. If there was acceptance and appreciation for our unique skill sets, and support to allow us to thrive, everyone would be better off.
As an ADHD brain with mind blindness, I’m curious about so many hypotheses around Aphantasia. I have a very chatty brain, lots of subvocalization, my AuDHD daughter has neither the voice nor the imagery. There has to be so much information worth researching regarding how different types of aphantasia affect learning and general processing of the world around us.
I can think of image's, but the fades off into scattered thoughts in a second
Thanks to Russell drilling into my head how much better i was off on meds I'm going back for another prescription for Concerta on Friday. Its been almost five years. As for Aphantasia, off meds I can imagine perfectly!! But it fades INSTANTLY!!! lol..so what's the point. On meds i can hold the image for really as long as i need it, and can re-call it in an instant. Off meds once its gone.
Is there any relationship between ADHD and getting songs stuck in one’s head?
I have ADHD and aphantasia of the diminished capacity type, rather than complete inability to generate mental images. Curiously enough, I *can* very clearly generate mental sounds. I grew up in a family of musicians and artists, so perhaps growing up in a home filled with music contributed to that ability. If I think of a sound or a song I can practically hear it in my mind. But trying to imagine even something as simple as an apple, what is conjured in my mind seems more like a flattened concept of an apple lacking detail rather than a detailed 3D version of the fruit that I could turn around to examine from various angles. Like I am one of the folks trapped in Plato's allegorical cave, stuck with mere shadows of the actual thing.
When it comes to taste or touch I cannot generate anything at all.
My mind is blown that there is a word for this, let alone a known and researched condition. I think I have aphantasia, and it is very difficult for me to reconcile with it because I used to have a very vivid imagination when I was a kid and I miss it dearly. I am wondering if there is something I can do to bring my imagination back.
Thanks Russell, very interesting video with some new stuff I didn’t know about Aphantasia.
If you are interested, I would love a video on SDAM too. 🤞
Very interesting. I wonder if there’s a connection between non verbal working memory and Prosopagnosia (face blindness)? Are there any studies about that issue?
Note that aphantasia relates to object visualization. You can have very good visual-spatial ability though. In fact, I've read somewhere that there may be a trade-off between these abilities. I've heard studies on prodigies have shown that most types of prodigies have high iq, which is basically a test of visual spatual abilities, except prodigies in the vusual arts, who are clearly geniuses but not in the iq way. Temple Grandin is an extreme object visualuzer, but she stuggles with the abstact categorization needed for algebra. Obviously, that's an n of 1, but my adhd brain has a lot of hypothesises based on an n of 1.
I suffer when it comes to a sense of direction and cannot spatially see how furniture or cabinets would fit in a space.
It the dark I have to use touch to navigate.
ADHD and migraine is possitivly correlated. Migraines are linked to intense reactions towards sensory stimuli. Seems contradictory towards some stuff of aphantasia
Thought I might have hypophantasia (not absent, but weak), but took a test online for it and it suggests I'm average. Not sure if the two disorders are linked, but I will say this. I don't particularly *enjoy* trying to imagine things because even if I can conjure the imagery on demand, it requires too much focus to maintain more than a flash or a hint of what I was looking for.
Which could definitely impact working memory.
Wonder what cross over this had with SPD sensory processing disorder
I had severe difficulty with getting lost, not being able to follow directions to walk or drive to places, not being able to go on hikes I had gone on many times with a partner because of getting lost -- until dx and then Adderall. Now I can "see" in mind where I am going rather than relying 100 on verbally memorizing directions. I hope someone will do research about this someday.
I just love how you are nudging students toward good research topics. :D
ohh thanks I have both
Another personal account. I can generate pictures in my mind, but cannot visualise processes very well. So practising actions in my mind is just an impossibility. Hearing an account generates definitely enough emotion, but certainly no full sensory whole set szenic film. It's all pretty static pictures. My verbal memory, retaining facts linked by logic is absolutely outstanding. I'm plenty creative, made up stories since I could verbalise them, but I HAVE to verbalise to connect those internal pictures.
omg me too
I have ADHD and ASD but I have a photograpic memory !
100% correct @60 plus Know you Know Doc. n glad I found you.All this has explained a lot of why things have happened in life
nothing to complain about now just understand more n yes nothing's Easy about all this looking normal but different.Funny thing nobody told me till 51 yrs old n wish others could understand really. It's Hard on oneself it never Stops anyway Life is Good cause every min.is new lol
What the hell! I knew that I had no minds eye, but people can generate smell, hearing, and touch? I feel so robbed.
My problem isn’t lack of imagery, it’s lack of working memory.
Is this why I find I need to draw out even relatively simple assemblies?
Love your work Russell. If there was a path to PhD in your field in Australia and a supervisor in Australia, you can point me to I am interested
Was the Default Mode Network mentioned in this? From what I recall reading is that the DMN is more active in ADHD and would be less active in someone with aphantasia. For me, I have a movie playing almost constantly over my visual reality. I'm basically in augmented reality without the glasses.
I don’t have aphantasia; quite the opposite. However, I do lack an internal monologue and think almost exclusively in images and sensations.
This is needed but man, I'm dooming pretty hard from watching these. There's nothing i can do about it and i know that. It's just so hopelessly depressing.
You can't get meds? I'm getting on friday and am so relieved/excited I probably won't sleep more than three hours until then. It sort of feels as if the prosecutor already told my lawyer they are agreeing to drop all charges!! lol
Yeah Information overload can be pretty devastating. you can get help though, perhaps neurodiverse therapy and medication can help see the positives. Russel Barkley says that you gotta have a sense of humour about you ADHD
no it isn't. just figure out a workaround that works for you. like with everything else
It's okay. It's best to not try and think about what other people have and you don't. I'm sure you were getting along just fine before learning it - we have stuff that they don't as well.
I may not remember my loved ones faces, but I do remember that I loved them and how that felt to me.
I felt the same way at the start of the year , also brain fog caused by anxiety and not sleeping right. If i can say one thing is that you just have to keep going and you going to figure out how to feel better (also stop watching psychology videos for self depreciation reasons).
@2:12 This is my greatest epiphany of the video. I have known that I have 100% (or damn near) aphantasia, but this is something else. It explains why I don't ever feel connected with others, feel in awe at great sights, moved by music, and so on; it basically has made me feel dead inside all of my life.
That sound more like depression. Aphantasia do not impact your life that greatly and maybe you feel that way because you have and untreated comorbid like autism, anxienty, adhd.
I would look more into this.
I have an experience in my 20's where instantly I saw hues for lack of a better description.
When you first put on new glasses everything looks clearer, well this was like seeing all the differences of the greens in the trees as I was driving. It was remarkable. I never realized what I was missing. I love the colors of sunrise, sunset, the lake water but I know that on one day colors became vivid.
What do you feel about Dr Amen and SPECT imaging for ADHD
Its funny. I discovered i had Aphantasia because i heard a discussion of it and discovered that other people really could imagine images in their head. Not just a metaphor or something. Watching this video i learn people can also imagine smells.
Could it be rather simple?
1 Neurotransmitter amount
2 amount of Neurotransmitter Transporter
3 activation threshhold of a nerve cell
4 what specific region in the brain hast what amount of 1, 2 and 3
If we could measure those 4 things could we then explain adhd, adhd inatentive presentation, cognitive disengagement syndrome, autism and so on?
And thank you for the videos 👍
My least favorite question ever is “where do you see yourself in 5 years”. I thought that as I got older I would be able to see the future better but I’m almost 33 and I’m still future blind. Also if anyone wants to questionnaire me I’m diagnosed w adhd and am willing to do surveys!
What could hyperphantasia and ADHD imply?
I've been off-meds a few years. I can't hold anything in my head for more than 5 seconds. Then even the most important idea, image, concept, vision, memory... just runs away..fades into the night..dissipates into the air..vanishes into the ether. I have been a zombie...i can't keep a thought so I can't direct my actions..i'm on autopilot...no agency. I'm doing fine - except my life has gone nowhere since losing my doctor/prescription a few years ago. its so bad the most gorgeous woman could give me her number and I'd forgotabout her AND the number by the time i got home!! And I'm lonely - so imagine how bad the memory has to be!! I've never been so hyperactive, its actually kind of fun but i feel sooo low-iq lol. Just give me a ball to bounce. :)
Was questioning my capacity for empathy today. The connection is missing. ADHD and Aphantasia.
There is no studies that say people with aphantasia have less empathy
I have ADHD and Aphantasia (zero visual, audio, olfactory and sensory). I also have Sensory Processing Disorder, where I am overly sensitive to visual, audio, olfactory and sensory inputs.
I think in concepts and facts. For me to notice someone has had a haircut I have first needed to make mental observations about their hair before it changed. I just have multiple internal silent monologues going at once usually not about the same thing.
The family side linked to ADHD (3 generations) have a mixture of Aphantasia and hyperphantasia. Being able to picture complex machinery and rotate, zoom in and out etc, and disassemble it in their minds. It's either zero visual picture or movie and manipulative.
AuDHD (Autism + ADHD) here. I have fairly strong visual aphantasia (can only imagine vague contours for brief moments), but I have extreme sensory sensitivity (visual, auditory, olfactory and tactile). I think Aphantasia may be linked more strongly to autism rather than ADHD, based on a small circle of people I have known with various combinations of ADHD/Autism/Aphantasia.
I wonder if roleplaying and improv may be a medium for practice for individuals with aphantasia.
I would expect that they have a difficult time with guided imagery, for sure. And the inability to plan things like how a garden or home interior will look with changes.
Interesting! I haven't quite finished listening. I'm guessing there's a lot of variety. I am highly visual, and good at imagining all senses. I used to have an almost photographic memory for learning things I was interested in when I was stimulated by the subject. However, as I've got older with multiple demands I'm pretty dependent on the visual of writing things down for remembering information. I'm not good at selecting information when faced with lots of writing. It's information overload. Whereas with hearing information I retain things and think about them well and picture what I'm thinking about as well. I think laterally and make connections and listen.
I am dyspraxic as well so if someone explains how to do a complex nechanical task, I can see exactly what to do. I find it hard to translate it into action e.g. mountain biking skills. I need explanation of tge task broken down into steps/how it works so I can see each step. Other things I follow really easily e.g. cooking something because I can imagine it, and I'm already doing it in my mind.
As ADHD overlaps with dyspraxia, ASC, dyslexia etc, I imagine that there is a lot of variety.
Interesting to see people's responses already and it will be interesting to see what follows!!
Now I need to know - can people remember smells? And remember other people's voices? And touch!?
Oh I'm starting to get worried - I remember movement, descriptions and internal feelings - am I missing more than just an ability to generate a mental image?
I do have ADHD, not treated at the moment unfortunately.
I will say, I do experience emotion from stories I read or hear if it's something I've gone through, because then I can imagine the internal feelings behind the words. I can actually be very sensitive to certain things.
I have gone to neurologist with these kinds of symptoms and they told me to take MRI. And they found nothing on the MRI. Except for the "partial empty cellae" which is usually found incindental aswell.
I would like to throw a bone in to the pot. In audhd so autistic adhd and I have dyslexia. I found aphantasia a while back and have been pondering the same things. I have no visual internal mind so picture a beach is useless. However I find in its place is an emotional memory. I can’t see the images of my past but I can feel the feelings of it especially high stress events. It’s something I can never find out about I cant see the memory but boy the feelings of it it can make me cry. I also found recently that perseverative thoughts appear like a ocd obsession but are not ocd and it’s not the images that repeat but again the feeling repeat its like a knowing without the picture to go with it. Makes me want to go back to uni
I wonder what is source of comorbidity of ADHD and dyslexia, dysgraphia and dyscalculia mayby common origins ? so genes overlapping ? any evidence of correlation of structural or functional brain organization ?
Ritalin really crippled my ability to visualise and imagine. Stopped taking it and it took like 30 hours to come back, I was temporarily afraid I had destroyed part of my brain with those drugs.
I have ADHD and Aphantasia, and all of my thinking and memory is verbal.
When imagining something in minds eye - is the image a ‘real’ thing inside your head that is stable and that you can kinda ‘look’ at, explore, change up and see it clearly? Or is it a a fleeting, hard to create/grasp/see/keep vague or piecemeal image that feels like it is wisp of wind blowing in and away from hard to reach crevice of the mind?
I’m guessing I have aphantasia because I’m asking this question :/ (adult diagnosed ADHD)
I know that this is not the topic of this video, but i have a question about adhd. Does ADHD impact your speech patterns?
I have been always labeled as "weird" for the way a talk. My mind is a complete mess all the time for my adhd-i and so when i speak, I tend to speak too fast and at the same time I misplace or mispronounce a lot of words and I also have some hardship to regulate my tone of voice. Is this caused by my adhd( for contest I spent 2 years in speech therapy because I used to not understand how to pronounce various letters and i have also social anxiety)?
Would parent/child interactions early in life help or hinder the development of that part of the brain?
Another video in AD-HD
This sounds like something that could co-occur but the amount of linkage to ADHD seems questionable. People with ADHD are known for maladaptive daydreaming and distractability and need for creative outlets - that I imagine typically involves a vivid internal mental world, including various sensations, but the sensations are often lost like the dream rushes in Alice in Wonderland as working memory is typically rubbish. Part of the need of creativity being to externalize those moments in the static world. That said, partial colorblindness and impaired nasal passages may affect my general ability to absorb the qualia others have. Always preferred black and white work over color due to that. Difficulties with three dimensional manipulation, while others with ADHD excel - perhaps reminding how the diagnosis could use more neuroanatomical subdivision as developments are achieved - I think the ECNP had a seminar on making things follow the neuroanatomical recently, but I kind of laughed at trying to get much progress. In any case, like many here, this seems more like the opposite of my life, though deviation from the mean and difficulties accompanying seems to be the common expression, whether more or less of anything.
* - Qualia - what a wonderful underused word.
Theres is a poll on the aphantasia forum and more than 70% of the responders relate to having aphantasia. Also from someone with aphantasia i also daydream and create scenarios in my head , like i have whole other lifes i live in my throughts.
I have a stupid question here to people: can you imagine and feel scents? For example, if I say "cinnamon" can you imagine and feel it?
ADHD with Anxiety and mild Depression,
For adult, as a student and mother
What is your recommendation for the best medication please
Is anyone else able to visualize food to the point where they can simulate the taste on their tongue? I can imagine eating pizza and feel the texture and taste on my tongue like I'm actually eating it.
There certainly seems to be a higher than average number of people reporting aphantasia (and it's diametric opposite) on the various ADHD forums I'm on. There seems to be no obvious connection - just that, the mind's eye is intrinsically involved with planning, future goals, etc, so maybe linked to the executive function in some way?
Is there any correlation between aphantasia and poor/no life goals. I have no vision of myself as anything other than as I am. Nothing to strive towards. 50 years of failure and misunderstanding have rather spoiled life. This went hand in hand with being born at exactly the right time to have been able to disappear into a welfare system that didn't care if you spent your whole life not working. Years went by with no oversight, no attempts at engaging my interest.
50 years of unrecognised, undiagnosed, unsupported and unchallenged ADHD has led to one or two unhelpful habits. Feels a bit late now.
My question is, is ASD comorbid with those with this and ADHD
Wait so do people actually see things when they close their eyes?
I was recently at a protest and I got hit with pepper spray. It was rough, but surprisingly after I stopped coughing it smelled kinda good. My friend asked me what it smelled like and I had to confess that I couldn't really remember smells. Just how I reacted to them. I told him I can't even describe the smell of something like strawberries. It's always been that way. I can smell them and enjoy them. But if you take them away all I can remember is that I liked the smell.
Ever since I got covid I can't recall smells like I used to. I really think some of aphantasia is brain damage.
I can't recall smells in my brain but I am very good at identifying the smell when I smell it