Wait, if there's a chain in the dice going one way, and a pentagram going the other way, then it's just like the Chinese elements philosophy. Fire burns wood, wood sucks water, water corrodes metal, metal cuts earth, and earth chokes fire. Then, fire melts metal, metal cuts through wood, wood digs through earth, earth dams water, and water extinguishes fire. If the dice could be colored red for fire, yellow for earth, black (or white) for metal, blue for water and green for wood, then that would be amazing!
Damn that was quick. Now to the difference between the Chinese element philosophy and this. These dice 'win' chains are only on average, meaning that it's most likely to win, unlike the elements or Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock, where the win condition is certain.
slendy9600 I would say I got that reference. but because its a comment relating to a nerdy show under a video by 3 really good nerds, I think pretty much everyone got the reference.
Red>Blue>Green>Yellow>Fuchsia Blue>Fuchsia>Green>Red>Yellow There you have it. No need to introduce olive and magenta to keep things consistent. I've seen a lot of people suggesting either change but green on its own breaks the second chain.
Did anyone else freak out when guy put the yellow and "magenta" dice back out of order? I saw James eyeballing the dice pretty hard for a couple seconds, and he even picked up one pair in what I assume was an attempt to work out how he could set the order back correctly.
I was messing about this the site earlier and broke it for a short time! It's fixed now so if you refresh the page you should be OK. Let me know if it's not.
James, your comment "this came out of my brain and into my hands"...that's exactly how I feel every day as an engineer. Of course, I love the maths involved.
James, there are two problems with what you said... 1. True Magenta is a sort of a hot pink colour, and not a purple 2. Fuchsia is another colour that has 7 letters. And by google definition shares the same colour code as Magenta.
at 4:15 he says that Olive will on average beat Red whether you use 1 or 2 dice, but by my math, Olive has a 69.444% chance of beating Red with 1 die while Red has approximately a 51.775% chance of beating Olive with 2 dice.
You're correct. That said, there's a simple fix to the problem: to treat the double-zero roll with two Olive dice as a total of 100 much like in a tabletop RPG rather than as a total of 0. The best part about that fix is it doesn't disrupt any other relationships between all the dice in the set.
I watched this after some Monty Python stuff. This fit perfectly well. The chair performance was just hilarious! Thanks guys. And nice to see you all in one vid. Keep on rolin'.
I'd love to see you guys reach out to Scam School to do a collaboration with these dice. Their channel is all about (often math related) bar games. They're nerds, you're nerds... it just seems right.
There are two different orders, that's the point... Red, Blue, Olive, Yellow, Magenta, is the first because it's by letter length Blue, Magenta, Olive, Red, Yellow, is the second because it's alphabetical The first draws a circle and the second draws a pentagram when arranged the way they showed.
2 quick questions - If he said Green ( 5 letters), is actually Olive ( 5 letters) for.. No purpose I guess. And Also Could it because he said Magenta and forgot to say it's the only Purple with 7 letters? which probably isn't the only purple, but he could have changed yellow for mustard, he could have had Yellow as lemon and green and emerald. so many Possibilities xD
That die is not magenta; magenta is much lighter than that. You could call it fuchsia, perhaps, while maintaining the word length and position in alphabetical order---and then you could call the olive die green!
It seems there is no strict definition of these things. From wikipedia "A purple hue in terms of color theory, magenta is evoked by light having less power in green wavelengths than in blue/violet and red wavelengths"
Yes I agree with statement. I do think an answer might lie closer to the hex colour coding scale for RGB gradients. As you said, purple has less green but a fairly even red/blue distribution. Whereas when you look at what most would consider magenta, the hex code leans more to the red with less blue and a little green. Interestingly though the die actually referred to as purple on the mathsgear.uk.org website So perhaps it was a slip of the tongue. :-)
Jody Smart Yeah, I think you're right. We actually call it magena for a reason (which I'll explain). So although there might be a more appropriate name, we need to stick with magenta! The reason we call it magenta is because there are two possible winning cycles and to aid remembering the order of the cycles (for when you're trying to win bets with your friends) we've named them so that one cycle goes in alphabetical colour order and the other goes in colour word length. That's why we call green olive!
Steve Mould That makes sense and I did notice the alphabetical and numerical ordering in the video/ I was going to suggest Thistle instead of purple to fit the order but it only matches the word length and would require green to be changed which is not worth it. However, this was an interesting debate, thank you. :)
2:18 Lies! Sangria, regalia, fuchsia, heather, thistle, hopbush. And those are just a few examples of colors with seven letters that are also purples, the first two of which are probably better approximations for the color of that die than magenta is, as magenta is usually closer to pink also green has five letters just like olive does lol These are so cool. I want to make a game with them. The first thing that comes to mind is you could have players choose their dice and then choose if they want to roll one or two, and if you roll two your score is divided by two, maybe you can take turns choosing multiple sets of dice and then choose which ones to roll at a given time. There are a lot of complex interactions between which of these is more likely to win if you allow enough flexibility, that seems fun to build around I would buy them but theyre sold out so I guess I'll have to make my own :P I liked the ending
This is a classic Parker Square, James! The whole concept of your dice looked beautiful to me until I realised there's one exception in it. You said the second chain doesn't flip, but that's not completely true. The odds between the red and the olive dice do flip! As a result if you play 2 opponents at once and they pick red and blue, you will lose more than 50% of the times to either of them, no matter which colour and which version of the game you choose, because there's no strategy beating them both at once. Even the "Read mode" article linked in the description confirms this exception, but it tries to say "eh, close enough" and suggests we assume the probability in this case is almost equal. But that's just trying to stretch the truth. The facts are your dice are a classic Parker Square. But hey, at least you tried! :D
The way I do this when I’m playing against someone where I want the dice that’s supposed to win, win pretty much every time, but don’t want it to take that long… I play where each player rolls their di, highest number gets a point, first player to lead the other by 5 points. That turns a 2/3 to 1/3 chance of winning each roll into something like a 98% chance of winning the series
I can't post links but if you go to mathsgear and go to any of the grime dice products there should now be a link to "James Grime's article". If you don't see that link, you're looking at an old version of the site. Try refreshing the page if you haven't already. Let me know if it doesn't work.
Awesome my set just arrived yesterday! Had quite some fun with it already at work. Now something bothers me. Using 3 dice: Red > Blue > Olive > Red But what if three players should play, who would win? Red would be better than Blue, Blue better than Olive, but Olive better than Red. :-/
The things lacking here are definitions of how you decide who wins. For a single die, is it the highest or lowest score that wins? For two dice, is it based on the best of the individual faces, treated separately, or on the sum of the two faces?
You should put a set of these dice in your emergency time travel Go Bag. If you get sucked back in time you could buy an entire town in a few short days through pub bets.
so if you pick one color, there are 2 colors that beat (on average) that color. If you have 2 people knowing that and team up (without telling the 3th) they can drink a whole lot off free drinks: on everage one of the 2 "winning" colors will win 50%+; what are the % for one of the 2 colors winning?
5 non-transitive dice having both a pentagonal and pentagrammic order of beating each other is old news. That doubling reverses the pentagonal path blew my mind... that it doesn't reverse the pentagrammic path blew my mind again. I wonder how tripling affects the probabilities. Though the question is, are the advantages fair? e.g. Does Red beat Blue by the same probability that blue beats olive? and do the probabilities remain the same along each cycle?
4:20 Mould: "They're in a pentagram shape." Parker: "That explains a lot actually!" Seeing Maths lecture circuit top billings Grime and Parker bouncing off each other like this is basically up there with Jay-Z and Kanye or Hardy and Ramanujan.
It's cool that all three of them have something named after them: the Mould effect, the Parker square and the Grime dice.
I dont follow mould as much as i should, whats the mould effect
I don't think Matt is very proud about the Parker Square haha
he pours random things out of beakers, pretty much
Kacper Kopeć Parker square lol
The Parker Square is Perfect!
Oh wait, that was a Parker Square statement (almost right)
Mould and Grime... lovely.
Some Mould, some Grime and a big Matt in between....
Though the Mould Effect is life changing
James Grimes and Matt Parker in the same place! Omg!
Cameron Pearce This is exactly what I was thinking
@@OrangeC7 WHAT ABOUT STEVE?!?!?!
They also both appeared in Tom Scott's video about Bar Billiards
Looking back, I think my comment was sarcasm as they're often in the same place.
@@dustt314 I didn't know Steve Mould at the time. I do now and I regret not mentioning him.
Dr. Grime is such a cutie. Just his mannerisms and enthusiasm for maths, in general :')
Wait, if there's a chain in the dice going one way, and a pentagram going the other way, then it's just like the Chinese elements philosophy. Fire burns wood, wood sucks water, water corrodes metal, metal cuts earth, and earth chokes fire. Then, fire melts metal, metal cuts through wood, wood digs through earth, earth dams water, and water extinguishes fire. If the dice could be colored red for fire, yellow for earth, black (or white) for metal, blue for water and green for wood, then that would be amazing!
How does metal burn wood exactly? It's been a while, but I'm interested.
oops, that was a mistake, I meant to say that metal cuts through wood
Damn that was quick.
Now to the difference between the Chinese element philosophy and this. These dice 'win' chains are only on average, meaning that it's most likely to win, unlike the elements or Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock, where the win condition is certain.
It's a memorization technique, not a rule. It's just a way of remembering which die has a greater chance of winning, given the situation.
there is. v=zWUrwhaqq_c (Non-transitive Dice by singingbanana)
these are like the dice equivalent of rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock XD
+slendy9600
But more fun :)
slendy9600 I would say I got that reference. but because its a comment relating to a nerdy show under a video by 3 really good nerds, I think pretty much everyone got the reference.
It might be semi-obscure but how is mentioning something concretely, considered a "reference" to 'be gotten'?
"We sell nerdy maths things". Instantly subscribed.
Red>Blue>Green>Yellow>Fuchsia
Blue>Fuchsia>Green>Red>Yellow
There you have it. No need to introduce olive and magenta to keep things consistent. I've seen a lot of people suggesting either change but green on its own breaks the second chain.
Did anyone else freak out when guy put the yellow and "magenta" dice back out of order? I saw James eyeballing the dice pretty hard for a couple seconds, and he even picked up one pair in what I assume was an attempt to work out how he could set the order back correctly.
I was messing about this the site earlier and broke it for a short time! It's fixed now so if you refresh the page you should be OK. Let me know if it's not.
It still works after 8 years lol
Also could have been the "G.R.I.M.E." colors:
G= Green
R= Red
I = Indigo
M = Magenta
E = Ebony
Ingenious.
Honestly would have preferred that.
But then you have two fives. Maybe have Grey, not Green?
Hilarious end bit!
rofl, Grime's entrance is the best entrance of anyone in a video XD
MAGENTA? Olive, fine, but this, Sir, is not Magenta!
More like violet.
Kjeld Schmidt its just to remember the order
It's more Fuchsia, but I got to give them leaway... Google is calling majenta "purply red"
Isaac Harper Fuchsia is a better choice in names and also has 7 letters
Dr Grime is the best! Incredible charisma and awesome teaching skills. :)
Not to mention his endearing enthusiasm.
Brilliant! Thanks for your order.
We were given a free set at a Royal Institution Christmas Lecture a couple of years ago by Microsoft Research. really good!
James, your comment "this came out of my brain and into my hands"...that's exactly how I feel every day as an engineer. Of course, I love the maths involved.
Love how the go increasingly formal in their attire going from left to right; shirt, argyle cardigan, shirt and overcoat
I want non-transitive fuzzy dice for my rear-view mirror. Make this happen guys.
Michael DeLue totally possible, however, three fuzzy dice, even 5 will be too much if an obstruction for the rear view
James, there are two problems with what you said...
1. True Magenta is a sort of a hot pink colour, and not a purple
2. Fuchsia is another colour that has 7 letters. And by google definition shares the same colour code as Magenta.
_Wait! Why wasn't I already subscribed to mathsgear?!? This is so outrageous!_
It works now! Thank you! Can't wait for the dice to arrive :D
My non transitive dice arrived today, they are awesome!
Great ending!
There is no number large enough to express the amount of awesomeness of these dice (and the other stuff on mathsgear)!
Infinity
Jack Lam Infinity is too small. And it's not even a number.
The power set of all the uncountably infinite aleph sets.
Jack Lam Still not enough :P
The meta-power set of all the uncountably infinite beth sets.
"That's a pentagram"
"Well, that explains a lot"
Satan loves a good game of dice apparently
This is a criminally underrated comment!
at 4:15 he says that Olive will on average beat Red whether you use 1 or 2 dice, but by my math, Olive has a 69.444% chance of beating Red with 1 die while Red has approximately a 51.775% chance of beating Olive with 2 dice.
You're correct. That said, there's a simple fix to the problem: to treat the double-zero roll with two Olive dice as a total of 100 much like in a tabletop RPG rather than as a total of 0. The best part about that fix is it doesn't disrupt any other relationships between all the dice in the set.
I love the bit at the end
Just changed the links. Should stay up now :)
I watched this after some Monty Python stuff. This fit perfectly well. The chair performance was just hilarious! Thanks guys. And nice to see you all in one vid. Keep on rolin'.
I'd love to see you guys reach out to Scam School to do a collaboration with these dice. Their channel is all about (often math related) bar games. They're nerds, you're nerds... it just seems right.
+shellbournian They're boring nerds.
That reminds me such much of "Fun with Flags".
The math behind this is wild, I think Dr. Grime saying "twoooo chains" was the best part of this video
my right ear enjoyed this o_o
I love the numberphile groups videos like this one!
"It didn't used to be a thing."
Yes Matt. That's how the universe works. Things become things after a period of said things not being things.
And eventually, things become not-a-things.
Numberphile!!
I am buying these right after I calculate the probabilities myself
"One dice (plural)"
"Two die (singular)"
Wut
sold. just placed my order. these are awesome! I'm a dice collector (yes that's a thing), and these are just the cool things I like.
That loud noise you just heard was my brain that exploded.
I’ve never seen a better example of the expression « mind blow »
GOD DAMN GRIME BACK AT IT AGAIN
Wow, thank you for explaining. I have to admit I was only half paying attention to the video.
Can you PLEASE do a video explaining the math behind these dice? I can't wrap my head around it.
I am so strangely excited to own something James invented.
Ok, I love these kinds of video, but this one is a wow from me.
Dice is the plural of die, James. Two dice.
Cool!
And I love the ending. :P
Blue Magenta Olive Red Yellow. It's for the second chain mentioned here: 3:48
Crimson & Scarlet (and every other color except Magenta with 7 letters in their name): **looks at Magenta** *pfffft*
Emerald, just another off the top of my head. Fuchsia. Saffron? Chiffon? 🤔
I keep thinking rock paper scissors lizard spock
There are two different orders, that's the point...
Red, Blue, Olive, Yellow, Magenta, is the first because it's by letter length
Blue, Magenta, Olive, Red, Yellow, is the second because it's alphabetical
The first draws a circle and the second draws a pentagram when arranged the way they showed.
I love James Grime
1:34 Classic singingbanana smile!
"Ony colour with seven letters" a quick google shows : Apricot
•Crimson
•Emerald
•Fuchsia
•Magenta
•Mustard
•Scarlet
None of those are TRUE ~Scotsmen~ colors except Magenta.
Only colour with seven letters................. of the colours mentioned this far
2 quick questions - If he said Green ( 5 letters), is actually Olive ( 5 letters) for.. No purpose I guess. And Also Could it because he said Magenta and forgot to say it's the only Purple with 7 letters? which probably isn't the only purple, but he could have changed yellow for mustard, he could have had Yellow as lemon and green and emerald. so many Possibilities xD
+Steelcrest
I think olive is only needed for the alphabetical order (just a guess)
Lilla Kiss Fuchsia then green would have worked just as well
Steve Mould, Matt Parker *AND* Numberphile's James Grime? Come on guys, there's too much awesome in this video. X
There's an alphabetical aspect to the play as well. Starts at 4:00
That die is not magenta; magenta is much lighter than that. You could call it fuchsia, perhaps, while maintaining the word length and position in alphabetical order---and then you could call the olive die green!
I love it! I really want a set....but, that is not magenta, it is purple or violet etc. magenta is in the pink range.
It seems there is no strict definition of these things. From wikipedia "A purple hue in terms of color theory, magenta is evoked by light having less power in green wavelengths than in blue/violet and red wavelengths"
Yes I agree with statement. I do think an answer might lie closer to the hex colour coding scale for RGB gradients. As you said, purple has less green but a fairly even red/blue distribution. Whereas when you look at what most would consider magenta, the hex code leans more to the red with less blue and a little green.
Interestingly though the die actually referred to as purple on the mathsgear.uk.org website So perhaps it was a slip of the tongue. :-)
Jody Smart Yeah, I think you're right. We actually call it magena for a reason (which I'll explain). So although there might be a more appropriate name, we need to stick with magenta! The reason we call it magenta is because there are two possible winning cycles and to aid remembering the order of the cycles (for when you're trying to win bets with your friends) we've named them so that one cycle goes in alphabetical colour order and the other goes in colour word length. That's why we call green olive!
Steve Mould That makes sense and I did notice the alphabetical and numerical ordering in the video/ I was going to suggest Thistle instead of purple to fit the order but it only matches the word length and would require green to be changed which is not worth it. However, this was an interesting debate, thank you. :)
Jody Smart Colour is a really interesting topic. Thanks Jody :)
2:18 Lies! Sangria, regalia, fuchsia, heather, thistle, hopbush. And those are just a few examples of colors with seven letters that are also purples, the first two of which are probably better approximations for the color of that die than magenta is, as magenta is usually closer to pink
also green has five letters just like olive does lol
These are so cool. I want to make a game with them. The first thing that comes to mind is you could have players choose their dice and then choose if they want to roll one or two, and if you roll two your score is divided by two, maybe you can take turns choosing multiple sets of dice and then choose which ones to roll at a given time. There are a lot of complex interactions between which of these is more likely to win if you allow enough flexibility, that seems fun to build around
I would buy them but theyre sold out so I guess I'll have to make my own :P
I liked the ending
They should also sell a set of fuzzy transitive dice to hang from your rear view mirror (maybe not a UK thing) - I may just make some myself!
This is a classic Parker Square, James! The whole concept of your dice looked beautiful to me until I realised there's one exception in it. You said the second chain doesn't flip, but that's not completely true. The odds between the red and the olive dice do flip! As a result if you play 2 opponents at once and they pick red and blue, you will lose more than 50% of the times to either of them, no matter which colour and which version of the game you choose, because there's no strategy beating them both at once. Even the "Read mode" article linked in the description confirms this exception, but it tries to say "eh, close enough" and suggests we assume the probability in this case is almost equal. But that's just trying to stretch the truth. The facts are your dice are a classic Parker Square. But hey, at least you tried! :D
The way I do this when I’m playing against someone where I want the dice that’s supposed to win, win pretty much every time, but don’t want it to take that long… I play where each player rolls their di, highest number gets a point, first player to lead the other by 5 points. That turns a 2/3 to 1/3 chance of winning each roll into something like a 98% chance of winning the series
lol loved the awkward ending.
“That makes like a pentagram instead of a circle.” “That explains a lot, actually.”
I can't post links but if you go to mathsgear and go to any of the grime dice products there should now be a link to "James Grime's article". If you don't see that link, you're looking at an old version of the site. Try refreshing the page if you haven't already. Let me know if it doesn't work.
I laughed too much on the chair intro. Even more on the outro 😂😍
Blellow also have 7 letters.
They are such übernerds!! I love them!!
we love james :D
Awesome my set just arrived yesterday! Had quite some fun with it already at work. Now something bothers me.
Using 3 dice: Red > Blue > Olive > Red
But what if three players should play, who would win?
Red would be better than Blue, Blue better than Olive, but Olive better than Red. :-/
You can remember the order as MR BOY (Magenta Red Blue Olive Yellow)
Came here after reading about these dice in Humble as Pie!!
You *must* ask him the next time you see him, Steve. We need to get this sorted out.
I wonder about the math of choosing off color pairs. That would be interesting.
"Infinity War is the most ambitious crossover event in history."
The way james slid in 🤣🤣🤣
Celadon has 7 letters.
The things lacking here are definitions of how you decide who wins. For a single die, is it the highest or lowest score that wins? For two dice, is it based on the best of the individual faces, treated separately, or on the sum of the two faces?
wonderfull, works like a charm. thanks!
Got that sold, man
Oh, THAT James Grime.
You should put a set of these dice in your emergency time travel Go Bag. If you get sucked back in time you could buy an entire town in a few short days through pub bets.
Well, why you didn't play? I think that would be the best way to demonstrate their quality.
They have the evidence on the site and you get it on paper with the dice when you buy them
so if you pick one color, there are 2 colors that beat (on average) that color. If you have 2 people knowing that and team up (without telling the 3th) they can drink a whole lot off free drinks: on everage one of the 2 "winning" colors will win 50%+; what are the % for one of the 2 colors winning?
How in the living fuck is that even possible?
Maths
Coco Gaming www.quora.com/Which-is-correct-Math-or-Maths
James Grime: Grime Dice
Steve Mould: Mould Effect
Matt Parker: Parker Square
That could be done with any amount of n-sided, proper numbered dice, I believe. Unless I misunderstand your question.
mind=blown... crazy but amazing stuff!
5 non-transitive dice having both a pentagonal and pentagrammic order of beating each other is old news.
That doubling reverses the pentagonal path blew my mind... that it doesn't reverse the pentagrammic path blew my mind again.
I wonder how tripling affects the probabilities.
Though the question is, are the advantages fair? e.g. Does Red beat Blue by the same probability that blue beats olive? and do the probabilities remain the same along each cycle?
Scarlet has 7 letters?
This is awesome!!
Seriously? You don't explain the maths behind them?
Check the second link in the description.
The way one dice beats another reminds me the rules of rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock!
Never thought I'd see his face outside of numberphile
4:20 Mould: "They're in a pentagram shape." Parker: "That explains a lot actually!" Seeing Maths lecture circuit top billings Grime and Parker bouncing off each other like this is basically up there with Jay-Z and Kanye or Hardy and Ramanujan.
This is so cool! And the video was really funny
Wait, what happens when you roll all three dice repeatedly and observe the totals?