The Qur'an as a Historical Source - Mr. James Howard-Johnston
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- Опубліковано 16 тра 2024
- In this episode of the Real Talk Podcast, we are thrilled to welcome back to the channel the eminent Mr. James Howard-Johnston to discuss the contents of his recent article “The Qur’an as a Historical Source.” A link to which you will find below.
James Howard Johnston is a Lecturer in Byzantine Studies at the University of Oxford, whose seminal book “Witnesses to a World Crisis: Historians and Histories of the Middle East in the Seventh Century“ is a monumental example of in-depth source analysis, examining the formative phase of Islam through the lens of both non-Islamic and Islamic sources.
In this discussion, we focus on why he considers the Qur’an to be such a key historical source and what a chronological reading of the text alongside other sources can reveal about the development of the Prophet’s career as both a spiritual and political leader of a religion that transformed history.
Link to the article:
www.degruyter.com/document/do...
Thank you for these truly intriguing interviews
I'm surprised he was not asked about Ahmad Al Jallad's findings regarding lack of pagan inscriptions in the Hijaz since 2 centuries before Islam and Kabaa not being a major pagan house of worship. Also it is amazing how much trust he puts on the Sirah to argue for Mecca's significance. And was he bringing evidence from the Quran for Mecca being major commerce center?! How many times is Mecca mentioned in the Quran?
Mentioned by directly by name once, rhen another time in the form "bakkah".
Then mentioned 6 more times by other words.
I'm surprised too. After reading his article, one of the things I mentioned about it in a Facebook post, is that I believed it was lacking in terms of consideration for Al-Jallads work to any extent. Why I didn’t think ask him that when we were putting together questions is beyond me.
@@skepsislamica Posso farti una domanda un po' intima? Per caso sei musulmano? Non lo chiedo perché ho bisogno di saperlo per apprezzare il lavoro che fai, solo mi stupisce un tale interesse e una tale passione per un argomento di nicchia.
Grazie mille se mi risponderai.
@@TOMOR450yes! Praise God
@@skepsislamica Grazie per avermi risposto! Sono contento di vedere musulmani forti, così come li chiamo io, che non hanno problemi con l'ambiente accademico. Io pure sono musulmano, e amo scoprire cosa pensano gli studiosi e il tuo canale in questo senso è una manna dal cielo!
Sono molto affascinato dal Sufismo, sarebbe interessante se tu ne parlassi di più nel tuo canale, sempre se è possibile. Sarebbe anche interessante conoscere la tua storia, come ti sei avvicinato all'Islām e il tuo fascino per il sufismo (mi sembra di averlo rintracciato dai video).
Detto questo, ti chiedo scusa per il fatto che scrivo in italiano, spero di non averti dato l'incomodo della traduzione.
Great interview, guys. I'm not sure I share the same optimism that Mr. Howard-Johnston has regarding the reliability of the Sierra literature but I still enjoyed listening to the conversation and as somebody who believes that the Quran is a valuable historical resource for learning about the historical Muhammad I found a lot that I could agree with then I could disagree with.
Plus I always kind of fangirl a bit when I hear a scholar defend the authenticity of the pre-islamic poetic corpus which I think unfairly approached by most in the quranic studies world from too critical of a perspective. Not saying there hasn't been any redaction at all in some areas perhaps, but I think most of the poems that we have are authentic reflections of the Arabian peninsula before the rise of Islam.
It's amazing how wildly different and contradictory are the reconstructions of the historical Islam and various fragments of it arrived at through the historical critical method, while the Islamic sources themselves constitute a remarkably integral and coherent narrative (not to say that there aren't things difficult to explain there, but speaking overall) and so far the only one as well. It's like a fairly built house, with the materials of which the historical critical scholars try to rebuild another one, but end up building only ruins, of which one can hardly find two that resemble each other. And all that grotesque effort because they a priori won't accept the claimed authorship of the original house.
Very good interview!
I have a question for Mr. James acording to the sirah the Kaaba was important from day one and even in the Quran it's clearly mentioned in ch 9 in order of revelation surah al feel which indecate that the kaaba had senficance from day 1 if not why God will protect it.
I think one of the best ways to think of Mohammed is a diplomat?
Another way is to think of him as a dealer. The histories suggest he was a very capable trader?
He had very competent persuasion skills.
I think he might have used his negotiation skills with the Quraysh.
And this is where the 'Satanic Verses' comes in.
It is an example of Mohammed doing a 'deal' in order to gain support with the Quraysh.
Obviously, that was a complex deal.
So this is why all the prior ritual tropes were accommodated by Islam.
It is almost as if Mohammed is going, fine, so long as you believe in one God, we can have stone-worship and circumambulation ......
Again, in order to bring onboard the Arabian tribes .....
The very idea of a messiah chosen by God as a messenger is absurd, when you think about it. Humans want to reify the transcendent and idolise those who present themselves as a channel to a deity. This goes for all religions centring on a single important human figure.
The idea of the Quran being authored by pagan arabs goes against the High christology of the Quran. The early Quranic community is a community with a High Christology.
1) Jesus is God’s Word to Mary fullfilled through the Virgin Birth (4:171)
2) Jesus is the Spirit from God which enables him to perform Miracles, revive the dead and speak to the people from the crib.(4:171,2:87 and 5:110)
3) Jesus is one of those closest to God because Jesus is the exalted servant who was raised to God in the highest heaven to Lead creation in the worship of God as God’s heavenly High Priest (17:1, 3:45)
4) Jesus has been given the authority to remove some of God’s previous prohibitions and restrictions to the Children of Israel while also being given the authority to forgive some of their sins. (3:50, 5:15)
When you réaliz the Real meaning of « masjid haram » .. You know definitly that it is a « construction » and Nothing is divine 🙌
What is the meaning?
So you dont know « masjid » signification & « HRM » Too ?
A couple of pages of the real story narrated by an authoritative source: The actions/policies/practices/maneuvres of a clever and imaginative man for amassing personal, political, and military power. He is a typical politician of the Middle Ages. Populist/opportunist, flexible, and when necessary brutal/violent. He employs every tool in the book, political/military/ psychological, with great success
Do you think that islam borrowed rituals from other religions at the time? Like the zoroastrian? The kabba and prayers seam to line up the same.
The prayers are undoubtedly from Judaism, as is a lot else in Islam (including many things anti-Islamic apologists will attack all day in Islam but never acknowledge in Judaism lol). 3 prayers a day towards Jerusalem is clear, ghusl and wudu are obviously derived from the mikveh and other Jewish ideas about ritual purity, the dietary rules are very similar. The Quran quotes from the Talmud at length and even some very specific concepts like wearing red being makruh or the Sufi ideal of the abdal have earlier parallels in Rabbinical Judaism. Imo the simplest way to think about Islam is as an alternate universalization of Judaism, same process undergone by Christianity but in a much different cultural, philosophical, economic and linguistic environment. And ofc a different form of Judaism being universalized, Rabbinic Judaism is not Second Temple Judaism.
The only Zoroastrian influence I, a non-expert tbf, can see is the bridge across Hell. Although it is interesting to me that the traditional literature apparently supports mainstream Zoroastrianism at the expense Mazdak, which from a strictly Islamic pov seems to be a pointless exercise unless there was some uncritical borrowing going on.
@@user-yb3gh3lk3z
Islam has zoroastrian influences from Persia. Circling the kabba 7 times represents the 7 heavens in zoroastrian.
There are arab scholars that have done research on this and are better than me at showing the evidence.
@@williamholder2020 7 equalling the 7 classical planets is practically universal, that's probably the reason it's a holy number in Christianity as well.
@@williamholder2020name a scholar for us
@@williamholder2020 Seven is a magic number. I think it stood for 'many'.
Probably you are mistaken.
Its not divine.. That s all 🥂
There's nothing divine in the book, but nevertheless it's an incomplete puzzle (as it's heavily edited) if one treats it as a source of history.
🌹🌿🌺☘🌻🍀🌷Respected Sir, he says perceptions about Islam that are not true. He relies on selecting specific events. Would you accept an explanation for what he said? I will write two comments, the first on the meaning of Islam, and the second comment on responses to what the honorable said. First, Islam is not a new religion specific to Muhammad. This is a narrow and wrong understanding. Islam is the religion of all the prophets from the first Adam, the father of mankind, to the second Adam, to thousands of prophets sent by God to preach Islam, guide the people, and lead them to the path of God. Islam = that Give yourself and your life to God, God will lead you. You will be in a state of peace with yourself first, with others, and with the universe around you, animals, plants, and air. Wow, the thousands of prophets. One of the sayings attributed to the Prophet mentioned that the number of prophets is 124,000 prophets whom God sent to all peoples. The verses of the Qur’an tell us (to every people there is a guide) (Messengers). Bringing good tidings and warnings) (Every nation has a messenger) (There is no nation that is devoid of a messenger = a prophet) The Qur’anic principle stems from the theory of the legal right to punish him except by text, information, and news to the people (We will not punish until we send a messenger so that the people will have no argument against God). Divine mercy has linked God’s accountability to us. That God sends us messengers who inform us and teach us: Abraham, Noah, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, Moses, Joseph, Hood, Job, and Christ are all prophets mentioned in the Qur’an, because the peoples in the region know these prophets. They are like a tree with many branches, each branch being a prophet. Therefore, most of the peoples, when Muhammad came with his call, responded to him and believed in Islam, because these peoples She had previous knowledge of Islam, the religion of Abraham and all the prophets, and the Arabic writings mentioned them under the name Hanafi = followers of Abraham. These prophets lived and died in Yemen, none other than Yemen. History and Yemeni inscriptions tell us that. The Yemeni records tell us about Abraham, they tell us about Pharaoh Moses, they tell us about Job, they tell us about Ishmael, and the Assyrian inscriptions also record Ishmael. The region knew Islam from The evangelization of the previous prophets, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Wu, etc. Before the birth of the Prophet Muhammad, we find the name of a Muslim male and female written in Yemeni inscriptions. This is strong evidence that confirms what I also wrote to you. The Qur’an does not care about the historical narrative. The Qur’an gives us questions for the mind to think and research and reach the truth to God. The Qur’an did not care about any human being. To give us the size of his wealth, his birth, his wife, his children, his profession, his system of life, his character, his feelings, his hobbies. The same matter, he did not care about any people or city to tell us its stories. The goal of the Qur’an is to give you knowledge of the Creator, and to turn to Him in thinking to reach the link between rational thinking and reaching God. It used a circular method, not a vertical one like the Holy Bible. It presents You have the biography of a prophet and move on to another prophet and another story. No, the Qur’an did not care about that and used a circular method that gives you thought about God. It presents you with a model of a person or a group that believed and another that refused. It takes you to behaviors that you must follow and others that you avoid and do not do. It presents you with questions that stimulate thought. Who created you? Who created the heavens? What is the fate after death? How does rain fall on the ground and various plants emerge from it, with fruits with different tastes? How does your body work? Wow, dozens of questions to push you to think. The Qur’an did not use the method of the Torah. The Qur’an is a fabric alone. It is a unique book. Unfortunately, your honorable guest views it as a history book, but it is not. The Qur’an is viewed as a fantasy book.🍁🪴🌱💐🌳
Quran is indeed a historical book but it's heavily edited to remove the elements of the failed apocalypse milestones during it's various compilations till 695ad mid Umayyad era al Hajjaj ibn Yusuf mashaf. But it's clearly a seventh century text and is synchronous with that milieu albeit with multiple authors and editors.
No its not edited. We have evidence that it is the same from the birmingham quran. Its not like those hindu bindu children religions
👍
Was it supposed to be anything but 7th century? It this something controversial?
I would think a text that is supposed to be underdrood by its 7th century audience would reflect 7th century milleau material.
@user-dm6oq6nh9y
@@user-dm6oq6nh9y Birmingham Quran is only a mere fragment. Check the Sanaa manuscript and see the differences. There's not one complete copy of antique Quran that's obtained so far. And refrain from making personal remarks and off the topics while commenting on research based UA-cam channels like these.
@@srebalanandasivam9563 A fragment that agrees with modern Muslims