On a personal note. I know the father of the IP that was killed and am a friend of his. I served with him as s State Trooper in the Arizona Department of Public Safety. He had served in combat as a Captain in the U.S. Army during the Viet Nam war and was an inspiration and great leader as a Sgt. and then later as a Lt. and District Commander in the Highway Patrol. This has had a traumatic impact on he and his family. Please say a prayer for them and thank you for your empathy in the way you presented this.
Things happen very fast and at times unexpectedly in the T-38. I was a student pilot at Laughlin in 1981 out solo one day in the T-38. After returning to the pattern from the practice area, I did two "touch and go"s, and then came around for my full stop. I landed 3000 feet or so behind the aircraft ahead of me, so I landed in the middle of the left side of the runway, as the previous plane landed on the right side of the runway. (6000 feet of spacing was required for aircraft on the same side of the runway.) Touchdown was normal. aerobraking was normal, and at that point I let the nose down onto the runway. I was doing about 85 at that point. I then went for the wheel brakes. The right wheel brake worked normally, but the left wheel brake was completely ineffective, as pressing the brake portion of the pedal went completely to the metal floor with a "klunk," and I instantly found myself on the right side of the runway, and immediately released pressure from the right brake pedal, and corrected the direction of the aircraft on the runway. I tried the left brake again, by itself, and still no pressure. I then tried left rudder deflection with the right wheel brake to try and slow the aircraft, but this only got me down to about 70 before the rudder became ineffective, even at full deflection. The end of the runway was coming up, and it then came to me to engage the nosewheel steering (normally only authorized at 15 mph or slower), and use the good right wheel brake to slow down. Upon pressing the engage button on the stick for the nosewheel steering, the aircraft shuddered, but I quickly corrected and kept the plane going straight. I then used my right brake gently with some left nosewheel deflection to keep the aircraft going straight. This was effective in gradually slowing the aircraft down while maintaining directional control. At one point in there somewhere I made a radio call that I was going to stop straight ahead on the runway, but I don't recall where in the sequence of events this occurred. But as the end of the runway approached, I remembered that stopping straight ahead was required only if there was no steering, but since my problem was a wheel brake, not the steering, and I was then going slow enough to have the aircraft under stable control, I was able to turn off the runway at the very last taxiway, and get well clear of the active runway, where I stopped and shut down the aircraft. That way, I didn't have to make a mess of the pattern by shutting down the T-38 runway. My speed on the runway while attempting to slow had been such that I could not have turned off the runway at any other taxiway except for the very last one, just before the barrier. Before shutting down the aircraft, I called for assistance, and waited about 45 minutes before a very pissed off tech sergeant showed up with a tug. But meanwhile I got to egress the aircraft using the built-in fold out steps from the left side of the fuselage, which was my first and only time to use those. I then got out the book and emphatically made a big red "X" for the airplane, with the annotation, "Left wheel brake inop." This plane had just tried to kill me. When the tech sergeant showed up, the first thing he did was to check the left wheel brake for visible damage or leaking brake fluid. None. He then climbed into the cockpit, and pumped the left brake a few times, and sure enough, after a few pumps, he got left wheel brake pressure. He then reminded me that the "Dash One." had a note somewhere that said that 'pumping the brake pedal might be necessary if there is no brake pressure.' This did jog my memory of that note in the "Dash One," but that sure didn't come to me while I was hurtling down the runway trying to figure out how to stop that thing. So I felt pretty silly at that point. But on the other hand, landing on the left side of the runway probably saved my life, as my initial attempt at braking with the left brake ineffective put me instantly on the right side of the runway. If I had landed on the right side of the runway, the right brake alone probably would have put me off the runway and into the rough. I did attempt at that point to try the left brake again, with no result. So I suppose one could say that I did pump the brake somewhat, in attempting to verify if it was working or not. But I still don't think it reasonable that the brakes should require any pumping at all, especially in the very intense and very time limited decision making in the cockpit in the landing roll out. But then I didn't design the thing. I was surprised upon returning to the flight room that nobody seemed to give a damn. One of my student pilot buddies comically remarked how my voice was an octave or two higher on the radio, but that was the only feedback at all about the incident, which could have been fatal, or at least result in serious injuries and a destroyed aircraft. There was no debrief or even any questioning. I remain puzzled about this. Yes, we did formation takeoffs and landings. I didn't find them particularly difficult, but very "by the book" and procedural. We lost no planes (T-37s or T-38s) while I was there. But I heard that one of my classmates who stayed on as a T-38 FAIP, was killed while on a night formation ride, when he and his student (on the wing) lost sight of lead while low to the ground, and then impacted the ground before they could reestablish their own situational awareness. I'm sure they had no idea at all what hit them. Yes, things can develop and happen very, very quickly in the T-38.
Only thing I would add is that if a student pilot was in trouble and in danger of crashing, his fellow class members would assemble with marshmallows, ready to go to the crash site to roast him home. Class 69-95. Moody AFB.
Great video and commentary. As a veteran USAF safety guy, it hits home as I've investigated 5 Class As and 2 Class B mishaps. The one thing I learned early on in flying was that you never try to salvage a bad approach or landing especially with pilots with limited experience and capability. Going around is a mark of good airmanship.
I spent 1000+ hours giving dual in GA aircraft, so I understand your point about an IP wanting to let the student go as far as it was safe to go, in the hopes that they'd recognize the error of their ways and learn from the experience. But in my case we weren't landing at 140+ knots. These guys landed faster than we would cruise, truth-be-told. So there's a whole other level of complexity, well above what I had to do...even in multi-engine aircraft. Tough break for those guys, may they RIP. My sincerest condolences to their families.
I have the same background as you. This tragic accident highlights an instructor's dilemma: The best way of learning is by doing, which means that the student should be allowed to discover his or her mistake and then correct it. The margin between success and failure can be very short.
Tom B yeah this is sad. NASA lost some guys in t38 flights back in the day. They lost a gemeni flight that hit the damn factory the capsule was being made in. Another guy had a bird strike and couldn’t punch out, can’t remember why.
I flew with Cravin numerous times at Vance, including my last 4-ship of UPT and Travis was a friend from school. Grieving with one of my mentors, he reminded me "Sometimes we forget how dangerous our job is, because of easy we make it look."
I'm a non-pilot that's been fascinated by fighters since I was a kid. I've learned more about the subject in a few months of watching your videos than in my lifetime of reading and watching videos. Awesome stuff!!
Really tough day for the Shooter’s. Both those dudes were awesome. The IP was undoubtedly one of the best instructors and human beings I’ve ever met. People always say you’ll know friends who end up dying in the business. It’s just surreal seeing that happen to a fellow stud and one of your mentors. Definitely permanently changed my mindset every time I stepped to that jet.
Atollon9 I was lucky enough to have met Cravin since I know his son through ROTC. He was an amazing dude. I had a friend dropping in 20-05 so being up at Vance the day after was surreal. Really was a reminder of how serious this business is.
Matt Kincade (instructor pilot) was a good friend of mine. He left behind his beautiful wife Gina and 2 sons, Kyle and Brandon. Thank you for the information on this tragic mishap!
This always breaks my heart. I was orphaned in early 60s during horrible Soviet days and 5-6 years old. I tell you, a son NEEDS his father. No-one taught me anything about life, how to manage a family, insurance, financial planning, etc, which really causes one to make wrong life choices! Why do countries of mine struggle many times to prosper? Well, can you imagine hundreds and thousands of orphaned kids, who (if they are not offered to other parents in other nations) 20 years later are the ones that must restore country your previous generations caused to crash? So many young people who dads died, no education, and mostly no University educated orphans. So it will take time for most countries crippled by WW2 to educate next generation, IF next generation without fathers who saved to educate their kids, could somehow work triple waiter sifts to educate themselves. Believe me, nation with so many broken families caused by wars can take many generations to build prosperity again..IF your nation is allowed to grow and not hurt further by foreign Sovereignties who try to keep your nation damaged with 4 - 5 sanctions and blocking every attempt for one's nation to trade. So, the boys of my and next generation might have fathers who are unable to train OUR boys how to manage their families! Why is it so difficult to just live in peace, and perhaps even help broken "Nation of Orphans" to recover. BUT, I must give glory to God as well for forgiving us and under good leadership and strong Church, the Russian Federation...the Bear's Cubs are doing ok, and most Churches and Cathedrals are restored with kremlins covered in real gold! So, depending on ages of these two boys, I pray and trust that you have strong family that will support them and creates in them spirits of exceptional stature! May God comfort you two sons those days when you miss your dad! I cannot express how bad it feels when son needs father for love and advice! We pray for you and all kids who are orphaned in all nations, not understanding how in our days have not had leaders that notice that wars are bad in so many ways. THAT is why Kremlin, who can turn Earth into charcoal, try to avoid war at any cost. We killed enough and evolved into the Light. All love to our Western Partners!
I'm not qualified by temperament or training to make an intelligent comment save to pray for peace for the family and friends of those affected. Much respect to those who do this every day.
Thank you i appreciate it. I knew trav from elementary school and junior high. At warren walker in san diego My parents know his parents. My buddy told me about travis dying and i just couldnt believe it, like i am still having a hard time accepting that he's gone.
Hey mover. Really appreciate your input here. I was a member of Travis's (the mishap student) UPT class at Vance, 20-06. I was about to start engines in the T1 when I saw the accident. Flew a lot of formation with Travis in T-6s, he was always one of our best. Seeing the AIB results honestly helps with closure, and I thank you for taking the time to explain this and offer your opinions. If there is anything that Folds of Honor can/is planning to do, please let me know and I can reach out to the rest of our class to see if there's any way we can help at all.
@@CWLemoine He recently got legally married to his fiancee, they were waiting on the church marriage until after UPT I think. She was a couple classes ahead of us at Vance, last I heard she had gone through IFF and was heading to fly A-10s.
"Seeing the AIB results honestly helps with closure"...Sorry Zack for losing a friend so early in your career. We made it out of UPT w/o losing anyone but lost a few later. It's never easy. Good luck to you in your future a/c.
Total respect to you for your professionalism, thanks for explaining clearly and my deepest sympathies to all the families involved. thanks for keeping us safe!
formation approaches thru the weather to a formation landing in the 38 is one of the most challenging things I've done. there's very little margin for error. I've also had great IPs who lean towards the side of letting you make your own mistakes-its where I learned the most to be honest. We knew the risks we took everytime we stepped to the jet but it doesn't get easier everytime something like this happens. Nickel on the grass
sean yeoh If you think a formation approach and landing is difficult in the T-38, just imagine what it’s like in the F-111. Large wingspan with the same runway width and the visual clues were difficult at best. When I flew as a wingman in the weather it got to the point that I had to fly lower and have overlapping wingtips because I could not see the body of the lead aircraft if I flew the textbook formation.
What dictates the need for a formation landing in the first place? In what situation can't you just break one after the other and come in sequentially?
As an aircrew member it’s always tough to listen to and/or watch a mishap, especially when there’s fatalities as a result, but there’s always things we can learn from them in hopes of not repeating the same error chain; never to judge, or criticize. Great work Mover, this was an excellent video! RIP to the mishap crew.
Mover, thank you for today's video and information. My nephew, by marriage, is currently stationed at Vance AFB and his wife is a civilian employee, so with social media, my wife and I knew about the incident fairly quickly afterward. He was flying the T-6 at the time of the incident and now in the T-1, he wants to fly the 'heavies'. When we visited later that evening, I told him my first thought was the incident was caused by the wingtip vortices of the lead aircraft. He dropped me a text today telling me to watch out today's video. The information you provided really drives home the fact that aircraft control and situational awareness can not be stressed enough. Flying final in any aircraft is a hard thing to manage, in a crosswind or formation flying with everything sticking out into the wind. You are correct, the runway is 150 ft wide which doesn't leave a lot of room for errors. And yes, he confirmed, a memo drop was issued stating that formation landings are prohibited in AETC. But also said that ENJJPT NATO caused some push back because some countries require proficiency with formation landing. Thank you for the video update, the information. Mark
Mover, as always thank you for your exceptional and professional documentation of this tragic incident. I'm a student at Vance now and it's a challenging topic to think about, let alone discuss. I appreciate your respect for the situation and individuals involved.
Hang in there Grant. Anytime there is an accident in the a/c you are currently flying the first question is, was it the plane or the pilot. Now we know and can learn from it. Good luck in UPT and your future a/c.
I did 36 mos as a faip, in addition to several thousand hours as a civilian ip. I absolutely love the T-38, but it does have some quirks. As I read the accident report I could feel it happening. Rip guys. We all experienced the T-38's tendency to land long, and I can see the accident aircraft letting his speed get away from him, so when he lifted the nose to aerodynamically brake he had too much smash and decided to go flying again. It's easy to do, especially with wx distractions. I don't like to lay blame but I feel that the IP was obviously behind the airplane. I've been in the same state but was lucky enough to get away with it. Poor bastards. Good video brother
NikoVlogs Being a former T-38 I.P., I was there during many sorties with a student having trouble. You have to decide how far to let them go. With this airplane as in many like it, the student can make an input and you have very little if any time to correct it. The 38 is an absolutely wonderful airplane to fly, but will bite you in a heartbeat. RIP guys!
I disagree with the premise that the IP was behind the jet. It is more likely that he was trying to let the student complete the landing since if he had taken control then the student would have yet another Unsatisfactory ride. That presupposes that the extra rides were graded which I don’t know for sure.
@@sevenfiveguy it certainly wasn't unusual for guys to initially have trouble landing the little jet. It tended to be sort of like learning higher math, there was this "aha!" moment, and after that they just had it figured out. I knew the accident IP very slightly, which is to say I met him once. We do have a mutual friend. That friend has nothing but positive things to say about him and his instructorial ability. We can second guess him all day( as pilots, we do that, it's a survival instinct) but the fact is this trap could have closed on any one of us. I have nearly 25000 hours total time, and I'd love for that fact to make me invincible.. But it does not. Bad luck, a second of distraction, even a malfunction in the jet that is undetectable post crash. Death is stalking us, as they say, and anyone who doesn't believe luck plays a role in our longevity is a fool. All experienced IPs know that students are actually all professional killers, there to do us harm. We do our very best not to let them. Still, I have never had a student attempt to rudder roll over our #2 during a formation landing rollout. I would like to think I was prepared for that eventuality, and I'm going to tell myself that I am. Check six, my boys. Always.
Probably one of your best posts, thanks for the detailed analysis of this mishap. When I was in UPT in the mid 1980's, we were issued two volumes of 'Road to Wings', one for T37's and one for T38's. These were published accounts of mishaps that although often fatal, gave us students invaluable knowledge on what not to do and how to recognize if you were nearing that regime of flight where something bad might happen. Another part of your briefing that really touched home for me was your mentioning how students can be very hard on themselves, and how things can 'snowball' and go from bad to worse. This is an insidious rabbit hole that students should avoid at all costs. You have to condition yourself to put it behind you, press on and talk about it on the ground. UPT is a long, difficult but rewarding year and there will be times when you make mistakes as you are learning. That is what your instructor is there for, to recognize this and show you proper procedure and let you practice to proficiency and get ready to pass that next check ride. Good luck and fly safe!
CW you said it best "it is very hard to read this". This is one of your best, unfortunately..thank you. It is obvious how fast this happened. Why would they do a formation landing with a struggling pilot.
@@CWLemoine gotcha thanks.. Been watching old blue Angel videos, 4 ship formation landing with F4's, amazing skill...How about a car video for a change. How you regret buying a ZR1 instead of a C8...😷lol...
@@CWLemoine I know buddy. I have ZR1 tastes with a C8 budget. I did put a deposit on a C8 Z06 whenever that comes out. Stuff has been good lately. Thanks for your work. Gonky's channel is coming along as well.
The Z06 should be awesome. I'm not sold on the FPC idea, but it should still be a fun car. The C8 looks great lowered with different wheels. I can't understand why GM chose such ugly factory wheels for that car.
Mr Lemoine, great commentary in this series of videos. I'm glad I found your channel. I was an tactical instructor in T-38B's for 2.5 years at fighter lead-in back in the 70's after completing 4 years in the F-4D. So I appreciate your knowledge of both the training aspects and the fighter world. This accident at Vance brings back memories of an accident I was involved in at Holloman, though as a single ship. At Holloman, we would work with all kinds of pilots of varying experience, new pilots out of ATC, former ATC IP's, and various foreign pilots slated for fighters. Lots of stories there. The incident I had involved a newly trained trained pilot that was doing the normal familiarization rides to get them used to the local area and procedures, as well as the altitude at Holloman (4100 ft.). Doing several touch and go's, he would do incomplete flares and bounce a little. I took the aircraft to demo a smoothe flare so that he could see what that looked like on our runway in case it was at a width he was unfamiliar familiar with. Subsequently he again bounced with an incomplete flare. However this time, with a thunderstorm sitting over the mountains off east of the base, we were hit with a windshear microburst right at the top of the bounce, and immediately rocked over 45 to 60 degrees or more with airspeed bleeding rapidly. I actually heard the wind shear blowing us around. At that point I got on the controls and shoved the throttles to mil and applied slight forward pressure on the stick to prevent us from stalling and going over completely. We ended up slip sliding downward in the same 45 - 60 banked angle until the right wingtip just grazed the runway, and then the most violent snap I have ever felt banged my helmet off the side of the canopy as the aircraft swapped wings and came down hard on the left wingtip, bending up about 2 feet from the rear corner. That allowed the forward pressure to get the nose back on the ground for a rollout. The whole thing started so suddenly and was over in about 5 seconds or less. In the end, one of the engines was fodded, so that counted against the accident and it became a Class 1 due to cost. I was so pissed off after we rolled out because I was 6 months from my DOS and then had this happen.
Hi Mover- my unit, 2/504th Parachute Infantry of the 82nd Airborne Division, was involved in the Green Ramp disaster on 3/23/94 where an F16 collided with a C-130 where mass casualties were involved while my unit was prepping to board for an Airborne operation. If you can someday shed light on this, I’d be grateful. God Bless Sir in all that you do for Folds of Honor, and for your service.
82nd Airborne I was 3/505 at the time. We had some people there but i was not personally at Green Ramp. I remember well. Was out on Longstreet and heard it and the smoke and burning jet fuel fumes were coming across.
As a former T-38 IP (back in 70-75 when it was a baby) I compliment you on an excellent and thorough analysis. It was always a fine line as to when to take the plane and even though we tried to plan ahead for student errors, you couldn't always predict what they'd do when under stress...had a 4 ship lead pitch into the echelon one sortie (yikes). Lost two friends and a student (not mine but at Vance) in 38 accidents; safety briefings are never easy. Major point...all this was in eight seconds (it took me longer to type this sentence). Thanks again for your good work.
Very nicely done presenting and explaining this unfortunate mishap. I graduated in class 84-01 at Vance and remember the 38 formation flights very well. Very challenging and little room for error. And today, as a LCP w my airline, the area of “when do I intervene” with a student is always a tough call. I’m sure I’ve let it go further than I should’ve have a time or two in the interest of giving the student every opportunity to learn. You’re right... this was hard to watch...but we can all learn from it. Prayers to the families. (You’re right...the jet is old...my dad was an IP at Vance and he delivered the first T-38 to VAFB in 1961. Went on to fly F-100’s in Vietnam Nam).
Excellent analysis Mover. You're right this is tough to watch but there's a lot to learn from it. As an IP it is possible to get surprised by a student. I agree that's what this looks like. There is tension between safety and learning that can be powerful. The choice of letting a student make and correct his/her errors or taking the jet isn't often clear cut. A kid in trouble but who is thought to be redeemable sometimes gets more slack than is prudent. Taking the jet in an advanced phase is a confidence damaging event. The decision is one that has to be made on the ground before ever stepping to the jet. A critical phase of flight is a big risk enhancer and I can think of none more risky than a T-38 approach and landing. There are no good outs if things go sideways. Below 500' a student gets little slack and the less aggressively he responds and corrects errors the tighter the leash needs to be. I have something approaching 3000 hours in the T-37, most of it IP, yet I had one of my first students catch me flat footed on a high crosswind landing. He was close to graduation and the sortie was a contact sortie for landing currency late in the program. He began drifting towards the edge of the runway and depressed the nosewheel steering with the rudder fully deflected. Three swings, a few seconds of strong alternating lateral G, and me taking control later we were dead stopped facing the edge of the runway. 110 KIAS to stopped in about 500'. Cool skidmarks. It happens and I knew he was one prone to silly reactions. That incident went a long way to seasoning me as an IP. I never was surprised like that again but was on occasion challenged to react quick enough. We flew formation touch and gos in the T-37 and T-38 at PIT back in the day. They were a ball and allowed us to do more training in less time. I've had a few times where a formation approach and landing was necessary due to sudden weather changes and low fuel state preventing diversion, separate approaches, or dropping the wingman then circling. A couple are memorable even this many decades later. (Having to ease above glide slope as a Steerman crossed our final approach course right in front of me at about 500' is one.Yes, a Steerman biplane following I-35 in weather down to ILS minimums at RND.) We would have probably been fine splitting up in each case but at the time everyone thought we made solid decisions. No longer doing formation landings is probably the correct decision. One question. Did I misunderstand you saying that the wing landing position is forward towards line abreast? That really seems like a poor practice that increases the risk of collision and leaves no out for directional control issues. Thoughts?
These sorts of after action reviews are are always difficult to break down and explain. You did a superb job keeping the analysis straightforward and respectful to all involved. I hope the families of both pilots find peace and reconciliation as time goes by. Respectfully D. Massey
THANK YOU SOOO MUCH!!! I live in Oklahoma, and have been trying to find decent info on this situation ever since it happened without any luck. Thank you for shedding some light on this very unfortunate event.
Yep, hard to watch. I have sat on an AIB, it’s the most serious, consequential gig in the USAF. I’m retired, but I live 11 miles from Randolph AFB, home of the instructor school, I can verify there’s no more two ship landings, they drop Em off in the flair, and it’s usually in association with an ILS approach for T-38s. I have yet to see a two ship T-6 approach there, but they may be doing it. That was an exceptionally good presentation.
Howdy Joe- I'm retired myself and live on my ranch out near Stockdale, about 25 miles from RAFB. I went through the PIT there many moons ago. I came and went during the tweet days, never sat in a T-6. Well actually that's not true, I own an original T-6D. :) Just wanted to say howdy, neighbor!
I appreciated your fair assessment of the AIB review. I spoke to you during your live stream with Petter. As a former UPT student at Vance in Tweets (5,000 lb dog whistle) and T-38’s. You have to bring your “A” game with the T-38. Everything happens so much faster than in a T-6. I’m going start making donations to Folds of Honor. Todd, American Airlines, Ret. USAF Capt., Ret.
Mover, I appreciate all that you do for the aviation community. I must admit, just hearing you read from the AIB report made my gut tighten up. Seeing the HUD images made me sick, especially the swing from 348* degrees (2* left of the runway heading 35C) to 008* degrees which would be a 20* swing. I’m just sick for the pilot’s families. Thanks 🙏 Mover.
I remember this well, I’m in OKC about 70 miles to Vance. My Veterinarians Wife used to pilot the C17 and is now teaching students at Vance. I don’t think she will talk about this event. Really sad this happened. Things happen in the blink of an eye and it’s over, done with, lives are changed forever, no excuses and no do overs.
I'm in OKC as well went to Vance for a tour with an AFJROTC unit seemed like a really awesome place I cant imagine the shock that it brought to everyone there.
I was a Crew Chief on the T-6A & T-38C at Sheppard Afb until i retired February 2019. It was hard to listen to your accounting of the events that transpired that day. As a Crew Chief we get attached to our pilots and sympathize greatly to any loss no matter who's fault they think it is. Thank you for doing justice to both their memories. I feel confident that your take on this is appreciated. Thank you sir.
This video alone make the channel worthwhile! What a thoughtful and educated assessment. For all the glamour associated with being a fighter pilot, a military pilot’s life is dangerous. This type of incident brings it home to you. My heart goes out to all the families involved, it also shows the respect we should give to all our armed forces and the sacrifices they make for our freedom.
My heart goes out to the families. This happened only a couple weeks after we helped support a four-ship T-38 demo out of Vance that was visiting Nellis for an airshow. It wasn't the same squadron I don't believe, but hearing about it so soon after we just spent a weekend with those crews gave us pause. Just a minor point of order: the first two digits in the AF tail number (65 in this case) does not signify when it was put into service, but when it was contracted to the manufacturer. Given the no-nonsense design of the T-38, you're likely correct in that the mishap aircraft could have entered service in 1965. In contrast, new F-35s being delivered to the VT ANG from the factory in Fort Worth now have an 18 model year. The latest block of planes delivered to Nellis in late 2019 had a model year of 17. Some of the early production F-22s were ordered in 1991 but weren't produced and delivered until the early 2000s, yet the 91 model year remains. That's the money side of the AF making sense again, right?
Nice job, Mover. Those things are hard to read and analyze if you have an association with the mishap. In 12 years in the AF, I was in units that suffered 3 fatal accidents. We lost a T-38 in UPT during a practice single engine go around, a C-130 at Pope due to lightning/thunderstorm and a HH-53 with the 6594th Test Group in Hawaii. There is no greater melancholy than what one of these things generates.
Thanks for the explanations. You always teach me something new and useful. It makes sense to me that formation landings in the T-38 have been stopped. As you were discussing the challenges I thought “hmmm- there must be some benefit to formation landings … I wonder what they are, compared to the difficulties”. Then you answered my questions.
Really well done. Your sensitivity and personal investment into the industry really shines through. This hits personally for me as a former pilot, and I want to highlight the personality and psychology aspects. I was top 5 in my class, getting my CPL, single engine, VFR. I had a couple incidents that could have been potentially fatal. The instructors just throw you back up there as you said. I really took those mistakes hard, I call it a perfectionist syndrome. This also makes it hard to adversity adjust, we hate when things don't go exactly to plan. I really feel for the student because I felt and heard a lot of myself in him. I was a good pilot, but when I listen to people like you, it's in your blood, you are one with the machine. I never felt that :/ So sorry for the loss. Btw, no I didn't continue at the flight school, met a girl and that changed everything 🤷♂️
I am not a pilot. I am an aviation enthusiast. I live near Enid and occasionally hear the T6s and T38s. It's been roughly four years since the mishap. I share your thoughts for the families. Your commentary was spot on. God bless you Colonel.
Tough story! Worked for the airlines many years ago! I've had the passion for all aviation since I was a child! I'm 51 now and to this day I still look to the sky when I hear jet noise! Thanks for sharing this story! It stinks, and I feel for the families! Great content, keep it up!
Just found your site and caught up on your videos. Outstanding job. This is a tough one to watch. I'm a retired US Army Helo driver, and LE. God bless them all. Stay safe and healthy. Keep up the great work.
Great presentation and brought back a few memory's as a flight line medic more decades ago then I care to count. Prayers to the extended family's of all involved.
Thanks for that one Mover...I could clearly tell how much reading that affected you...prayers to the families of those involved and I'll be heading over to folds of honor now to do my small part.
So, so tragic. You brought up a very touching comment about the release of the report and opening the deep wounds once again. I am glad to hear they changed the formation landing portion of the class. My sincere thoughts for the families and friends. Thank you!
Mover, I was a Tweet FAIP at Vance in the late 70s so this mishap struck a chord. I went on to fly a couple of more fighters after leaving Vance. We flew a lot of formation approaches and a handful of formation landings especially in Europe where during the 80s there were lots of fighters in the air and formation landings ensured recoveries during those times when the pattern was saturated and we needed to get folks on the ground. Having said that, I think there is definitely a benefit to formation approaches down to the flare. I've always taught the "stabilized approach" rule when teaching formation approaches and any approach for that matter. This AIB was a tough one because the student was never really in a stabilized approach after breaking out. I know that is a tough thing to say especially for what it means for the IP. I also think there was a lot of psychology that you didn't (I get it) address. The '87 ride was a very big deal for the student. The IP was also amazing in allowing this '87 to do what that sortie is supposed to do and that is to bring it to the student. He was a very generous instructor. I also agree that he knew he was doing when against all instinct he pulled that jet over the top. There are always "eye witness" reports of pilots turning away from population centers to save people on the ground, but this is clearly a case where he pulled the jet with no chance of flying off of his flight lead. He saved lives. Thanks for an excellent summary and especially for your clear empathy for all involved from the students, instructors their families and us old fighter pilots who've all had the sh*t scared out of ourselves in these high performance machines... but for the Grace of God, Mover. Throw a nickel on the grass for these airmen. -Boz
I agree with you on the 87. 87s are all about cramming in as much training as you can and getting the SP as confident as you can before the 88 or 89. The IP personality plays a "huge" part on the success of the 87 ride. Fly long, log short, that's what I always did. Fly safe, amigo!
Gut wrenching report. In UPT I was fortunate to have a crusty Hun driver as my primary IP in the 38 and he let me go further than the stick guarding Lt New Guy. I wonder why the IP didn’t use AB for the go. I used to do barrel rolls in the 38 using the rudder trim knob. It worked pretty good. I generally don’t think less training is a solution to an isolated problem. The civilian sector is suffering now from no stall/spin training. Coming from the civilian flying world with about 500 hours, I used to think the 38 Instrument panel was petty nice and I loved visual pattern work, close trail and four ship formation. The 38s were nearly new back in 1971 and smelled like a new car.
Mover. Great job! Sorry for everyone involved. I’ve commented on some other videos regarding this accident. What many don’t know is that PIT training at Randolph used to use formation touch and go landings to increase proficiency of both student instructors as well as instructors, so we could do formation landings with much more frequency. In the mid 90s, some general got scared doing a formation touch and go and soon after the formation touch and gos were banned, both on the 38 side and the tweet side. As a result proficiency quickly went downhill, especially for students after that landmark decision. Yet obviously they kept the formation landing as a syllabus item, and we struggled getting IPs up to speed. Another case of unintended consequences of “dumbing down” the training system. Makes me wonder what a military pilot looks like 25 years later. What else got dumbed down and removed, or dumbed down and not removed. That plus a million other factors of pilots getting pulled out of the cockpit to do non pilot jobs, and placing demands on them that are unfair in comparison to their non flying peers. It’s a sad state from what I hear from my younger peers. The “management” of the Air Force lost touch long ago. And true to modern times we put safety at a level that clouds our human ability to move forward. There is nothing about the business of military training that is “safe”. It’s all a managed risk, yet the safety card never gets thrown when the boss wants more information and statistics, pulling you away from what should be your primary focus as an aviator. But hey, you need to get promoted too.... the promotion system within the officer levels of the Air Force is a disgrace to the service, and is detrimental to our national security. If you need proof just look at pilot retention issues since the beginning of time. Management never seems to understand the real reason that pilots move on... My analysis as an old T-38 FAIP was that this instructor was doing his best to let this student operate in a “organic” way, letting the student make mistakes but also leave the student responsible for fixing his errors. That would be the approach to give him the best chance for success on his 89 ride. While I commend him for this, the student had that rudder trick up his sleeve and the IP wasn’t expecting that error on top of the already messed up formation landing. It’s sad to say, but my advice to current day instructors is to remember that not every student will make it. It’s not your job to go to unreasonable latitude and allow excessive errors to magnify. EVERY SINGLE time I have ever been scared in an airplane it’s because I broke this rule. And eventually statistics will kick in. If you are giving your student extra latitude, which I applaud, then at least be guarded to take that jet the millisecond things get strange. Fix things with your verbal skills before you need your stick and rudder skills, if you can, and keep your stick and rudder skills sharp. My other advice is to keep your head humble. Never believe that you are as great a pilot as your airplane is great. Relying on the “greatness” of your T38 (or any other airplane) coupled with the “greatness” of your own skills will get you killed. But it takes time and statistics to get the job done. If a student is struggling this hard, this late in the program, doing something that arguably isn’t super challenging to do (basically flying in stack beside another plane) then you need to put all that in perspective. There wasn’t enough room for error here. If in doubt, take the jet. Don’t count on your own skills to save you in a situation that you yourself have never seen before. Ironically, I too almost experienced this exact same fate as this crew. T38 formation landing at Willy in 1991. We are on the left wing doing the landing. Too much smash and a late power pull by the student, he compensates with an aggressive pull into the aero brake and we go airborne again, moving into an abeam position on lead and looking down about 10 feet, wing almost overlapping. the student moves the stick towards his head (looking down to the right) and the airplane follows, creating a slight vector down and towards the lead aircraft. We are rapidly running out of maneuverability as I snatch the stick, full blower, left rudder, and max perform what is left of the speed. We establish a slight vector away just as we smash back down, and the blowers kick in and we are back in the air. I was flying for my own life, as well as 3 other guys. Students make mistakes, but instructors are responsible for them, and ultimately the outcome. Be careful out there.... Best of luck to all, and my condolences again to all for this tragic loss.
Mr Lemoine, could the student, when told to go around, inadvertently used the technique from the propeller driven T-6 which requires substantial right rudder when full power is applied??? Some habits are quite hard to break and in a high stress situation I could easily see myself doing the same thing... Prayers for their families!!! As you said, this was quite hard to watch...
I wouldn't think so, in the T6 there is a significant delay between full PCL to actual compressor spool up time so right rudder is not required right away on touch and go's
It is a very sad event when lives are lost like this and I'm sure it hits close to home for you Mover as you have been there, done that and faced challenges in wartime and peacetime every time you strap on that aircraft. An accident like this is devastating to the family of the deceased and the military family of brothers and sisters they have left behind. May the student and IP rest in peace. (Bill from Slidell)
Thank you to the Families of the fallen for thier service. And Thank you to all of our service men and women past,present and future for your sacrifices. God bless you all. Thanks Mover for your time and the personal approach to this channel. Thank you for your honest feedback on all matters involved. Some are tragic and others are inspiring. And a few are even funny. Keep the Faith and always make them tell you No ! I look forward to more from Mover
Tough video. Sad situation and outcome. I think you do the deceased a great service but going through these reports and explaining them. That keeps the facts straight and removes speculation and misinformation.
Mover first and foremost,I am very sorry for the loss of these pilots, my sincere expression of compassion, to the families during their time of grieving.What a difficult critique you performed and well done with respect and dignity to all involved. In the end, yes student error with rudder application and aerodynamic braking maneuver,,and the IP taking control too late.Respectfully,as you stated as a trained and highly skilled pilot,I can only listen and learn.It is easy to point a finger of blame,and talk about how it should have been handled but no one can speak unless you have walked in those shoes. It can happen to the best of pilots.It is a lesson learned through tragedy,my respect and admiration to all pilots who put their life on the line every day for our country.Thank you Mover for delivering this information with the utmost respect and sensitivity to the pilots and their families.
Thanks mover. As others have posted, this was a very tough video to watch. I’m not a pilot but have always been fascinated by the courage of the men and women who fly. You guys make it look so easy, us civilians just don’t understand the complexity and risks. Stay safe.
I appreciate the video. My father was a T-38 IP at Reese AFB back in the mid 70’s. He had some interesting stories to tell. Especially doing no flap landings.
Rest In Peace. Great input from you again Mover. This is a perfect example of the “when to take over” phase of flight instruction. There’s two aspects of a students reaction that always needs addressing in an instructional sortie. One is the “ok mate I took over because we were getting dangerously close the the edge of the runway and you aerodynamically flared too early.” 1. Safety. The other is “ok mate I took over and completed the landing because you were consistently out of position and I needed us to get into position real quick for the touchdown.” 2. Learning has ceased Whilst the arm chair critics can sit back and say what they want to say. People have to remember that this whole event took 8 seconds. And in that time you can minus the reaction time and the time it takes for the aircraft to respond. Probably leaving the decision making process to about 4 seconds. This is why flying is to be a highly respected beast that can turn wild in a fraction of a second. Thanks for posting.
I agree - this video was very hard to watch. As a retired AF Bomber navigator, I could never understand the need to place multiple aircraft in close proximity or actually ON the ground. I totally understand the need for formation flying while established in the air. Formation landings are, in my opinion, simply asking for an accident as described by this video. A blown tire could have even made this accident worse. Once the bomber stopped pulling alert, I felt there was no reason to continue with MITO takeoffs (Minimum Interval Take Off). Current doctrine assumes time to generate and launch - there is no real requirement to perform a MITO . We routinely did 15 and 30 second MITOs with dissimilar Aircraft (bombers and tankers). Once the daily alert requirement was dropped, there was no reason for pilots/crew to be practicing MITO takeoffs.... yet we started doing them during Conventional training sorties as well once daily nuclear alert ended (MITO was never a Conventional tactic). I've been retired almost 20 years now and bombers STILL perform MITOS. It makes no sense. As a 'passenger' sitting in the bottom of a bomber aborting as lead on a runway at visual minimums, I was justifiably upset that upon landing at our FOB 8 hours later that #2 claimed to have missed us by mere feet as we pulled off the runway. I brought this issue up many times until my retirement but never received an adequate answer to 'Why are we doing this?'
I agree with Al. He and I went through B-52 training together. All aircraft in close proximity to one another can go catastrophically wrong in no time. Maybe the lessons learned here will save folks later.
this seems a bit wierd to me that there wouldn't be a sufficient proceedure to avoid an aborting aircraft when doing MITO's, could you please explainwhat such proccedure was in your time (if there was one at all)?
@@nitaihat12 In a MITO, as soon as a 'rolling' aircraft realizes they are aborting, they make an abort call. The theory is that an abort issue will usually happen early in the takeoff (when full power is applied and something breaks) or the rolling bomber is not going to reach takeoff calculations (70 knot call). The next bomber merely holds his takeoff until the preceding aircraft has left the runway and the MITO 'stream' begins again. The case I mentioned, we were deployed and takeoff visual range was at minimum (I believe that they were 'optimistically' above mins - meaning not 'at' mins but below)due to heavy fog. We also had a light rain as well and a pre-dawn takeoff - it was very dark out. We were lead and aborted halfway down the runway and made the abort call. As #2 later debriefed, once we put in power to take off, he could no longer see us. Then, he did not hear our abort call (we never found out why). #2 proceeded with his 15 second MITO timing (when lead puts in full power the next aircraft starts a timer and pushes power up when 15 seconds elapse). After we debriefed at the FOB, I couldn't help but say with typical gallows humor, "Imagine being the #2 Copilot as they roll down the runway and see our tail disappearing into the fog off to his right and saying, 'Hey look! There's lead! Wonder what he's doing on the taxiway!" A senseless tragedy was narrowly avoided by PURE chance.
Thanks for the great walkthrough; it was tough to hear and we feel you. Formation landings always terrified me in the T-6 and T-45. I'm glad to see that's stopped, at least on the USAF side.
I was a T-38 A IP back in the 70's and I recall that at the time the rudder had a mechanical limiter ( though the nose gear trunnion) which limited rudder deflection to 6 degrees in the clean configuration. With the gear extended, however, the limiter was cut out and the authority increased to 20 degrees. I noted in your description that no mention was made of this this extra rudder authority in the landing configuration which would have a significant effect on the rudder inputs remarked on. Perhaps the T-38 C modifications removed or modified the rudder limiter system.
The T-38C also has enhanced sensitivity in the rudder with the gear down. Same for the elevator control. We had the rudder sensitivity with the gear down demonstrated to us in the MOA on one of our first flights in the T-38 as a lesson in what not to do.
Sorry for the loss of the two pilots in this incident. In any dangerous occupation when a incident of this nature happens, it effects everyone, which it should. I retired as a LEO in 2012, just wondering if your Sherrif's Office has a air wing and or do you still patrol? In Vermont, our reliance on aircraft when needed is/was through the Vermont National Guard Rotoray wing under a drug interdiction joint state/local program. Thank you for your efforts to make a professional and informative channel! Stay safe
The absolute level of respect that Mover has for these kinds of things....wow. I mean, its what? "Expected", right? I mean we are talking about warriors or soon-to-be warriors following in HIS foot steps that never get the chance to...I mean, what I am trying to say is the reverence that Mover has in these AIB Review sessions is sobering and admirable. More to the point - the fact that he takes the time (and dedication) to share this with us in layterms is duly admirable (so, thank you, Mover!). It always strikes me when he says something beginning with "Its hard to..." Like, in this video, "Man its hard to look at that" referring to the hard roll angle in the HUD Tape. Or in the "Star Wars Canyon" F/A-18 loss video "Man, its hard to read that." I appreciate all of it, Mover. Really. So thank you for surviving these brave souls the way that you do.
Tough one and thanks for the breakdown, explanation of the mishap. As a T-45A/C Goshawk IP, I did two JAG investigations for two separate Goshawk Class A mishaps. One was a section go, mishap aircraft flamed out at 800’ AGL, both IP and student punched safely. The other was a BFM 1v1, loss of control and again, both IP and student safely ejected. The best part of these two Class A mishaps were that both crew safely ejected and survived. Always tough when we lose fellow IPs and studs, especially during training.
Mover, I was a FAIP at Reese. 85-89. This kind of poor flying (getting too wide) on an 87 ride indicates to me that the student was having trouble on wing landings. Was the 87 ride after a failed check ride? Had he even made it to a check ride? Riding with a O-5 tells me this guy was having signficant problems in the jet. Was the IP one of the squadron leaders? Or just a line IP? And nothing mentioned about the touch down speed for the Lead AC. Were they fast? ...which would not have helped #2 causing to get airborne again from the aerobrake. I can't help but feel like this student was a big time problem (based on all I saw at Reese) and that the IP should have been doubly guarded for mistakes - especially if the student's problems were wing landings. Sure would like to know for sure. Anyway, we lost an IP at Reese (no flap landing) with SQ supervision flying with sad sack student on the way out of the program - letting him go too far - flared high, stall, wing tip hits, jerks left off the runway....you get the rest - on a graduation day. I was one of those who got to fly with sad sack students. One for refusing to give up AC control!!!! And that guy was flying when we blew the right tire on takeoff at 160kts compressor stalling the right engine! I immediatley took the jet and as he gave up control held both hands up (way up), so I couldn't see out the front! Had to tell him to put his hands down as we slow flighted out with gear hanging, with a 75' flame out the back in broad daylight. And 90 degrees at Reese PA 3,300 ft.. I took the jet. I wish the IP here would have done so, when the stick came back too far in the aerobrake.. Just jam it back and deal with it afterwards. This crap gets me all worked up. Thanks for sharing.
Excellent review. I flew Tweets and -38s as a student in UPT and then taught in white jets (Tweets and T-6s) for 16 years. Tough video to watch as a former AF IP, even moreso because this happened in the town I live in now and the mishap #1 student that was killed gave my son some pointers as they were both crossing paths finishing/starting T-6s. I've been through an 89 in -38s and the stress I put on myself was absolutely enormous so I can certainly relate to what the mishap student was likely experiencing. Monday morning QBing is easy, but my gosh, to get a T-6 main gear within 15' of the edge of the runway and I'd be screaming "I have the aircraft!" and the -38 is a rocket on the landing roll compared to the T-6. I will never forget the stress of trying to hang in there in perfect position on the wing during a wing landing because it is not an easy thing to do, even when you spread out laterally and take the center of your half of the runway because there's so much to crosscheck. When it's done right it's a thing of beauty and pride but there was always stress to do it well. I hate to see the maneuver go away because it certainly teaches you confidence but maybe it's for the best. My condolences to all involved. RIP, my brothers.
There are plenty of ways to teach confidence in your flying ability in an aircraft. The risk of accomplishing a formation landing in a training environment, especially when considering it is not at all used in the CAF, does not live up to the reward of the satisfaction of executing it well. Formation landings are challenging and fun, but they haven't been necessary for a long time.
Mover, as always thanks for the coverage, and RIP to the deceased. The 142nd Fighter Wing, flying out of PDX, are still formation landing their F-15C Eagles as of 5-11-2020.
Thanks for going through all that in such detail. Probably more detail than we all can handle. Esspecially the point where they discribed the IP beeing ripped out of the plane... just terrible. But I support your oppinion that they flew it though the crash to save the other two pilots. What kind of man you have to be for that. Just really hard to imagin. I reckon the IP was a bit "late" on his assesment most likley because he knew the trainee had trouble with blaming himself etc and he want to avoid to interact prematurly and give him a bigger chance to correct the misstake himself. I wish all the Friends and Families all the best and basically can just hope that all of that is for some greater good and saves lives in the future.
I agree strongly with this assessment. Sometimes the best way to help a student out of a negative cycle is to let them make, realize and correct an error on their own. Very difficult line to walk.
That was fascinating to listen to. Great video sir , but also such a tragic outcome. I was aware of the incident and saw the news helicopter coverage but never heard all details of the investigation. Very sad. God bless our military , thank you for your service and sacrifice. 👍🇺🇸
I had hoped the AIB would discuss any linkage between the use of rudder in the primary trainer and the T-38. The SP had done well in the primary and may have reverted back briefly when lateral spacing became a problem. In the old days you would demonstrate a rudder roll at high AOA in the training area so the student could see the huge effect the rudder had while slow and at high AOA. The student would then do one as well. Is it still in the syllabus? Finally, not much was made of the over aerobrake, but formation landings were prime breeding grounds for getting airborne in the post landing aerobrake. A little extra speed (1/2 mv2) and touching down (being too low) before lead would combine with the loss of induced drag to spit you smartly out in front of the leader. The natural tendency was to aero brake quickly to stay behind lead. Now you are airborne at high AOA in idle (quickly entering the Sabre Dance region). You could see 45 degrees of bank in a heart beat with a stalled wing. Wing landings were fairly straight forward if you stacked level to slightly high, stayed aligned on your side of the runway and did not get slow. Unintentionally swapping leads post touchdown was briefed to have 2 stay out front once he got there and talk about why in the debrief.
Great video. I live in the town where Vance is located and also work for a moving company where roughly 80% of business is moving in and out people at Vance. I just moved the base commander, Colonel Simmons who is a great guy but did not ask him about this because I felt it wouldn’t have been something he wanted to mention as I wanted to learn more so thanks
terrific review, thanks for getting us pudnockers in the front seat. Running out of altitude, airspeed ( esp with 38) and runway, less than 8secs ...prayers to the families.
Thanks for the explanation Mover, helping us to understand it all, completely. My condolences to the families of these two men. It's always dangerous, but I don't think people expect their loved ones to not come home from training. Or, maybe I'm completely wrong and training does have a higher expectancy of fatal accidents....? My heart breaks when accidents take people away from us far too soon. I hope you are hanging in there as well, Brother. I know things like this will always hit close to home.
Is there a very significant issue here that military aviation higher ups may be missing? If the T-6 does require compensating right rudder when applying power, that well learned behavior may have been a principle cause factor. So...why did we buy an airplane that required right rudder when going to full power and then transition those students into an airplane that can safely be flown with feet on the floor for the vast majority of situations, including go-arounds? Another question, why not preach that A/B should be used for all T-38 go-arounds?
Doc Holiday got most of it. There’s also an element of mutual support in the event an aircraft has nav system failure and needs to penetrate weather. Not to mention the airmanship and trust in your wingman/lead that is developed during UPT, especially for the students tracking towards fighters
Hey mover, what about sharing your experiences and impressions of foreign fighters and military aircraft that you have encountered in training and combat simulations? I would love to hear your impressions on European planes or something like that, thank you!!
He usually stays away from technical things as he is trained in things that aren't open to the public. However he may be able to which would be awesome if he does.
They want to use live ammo on americans, but they wont say it loud. You dont want to kill the teacher until you finish the training, LOL. Saudi student killed american teachers in Pensacola a year ago.
Privet partners! I suppose you left out Russian Fighters perhaps as the quality is so good to fill entire episode! :-) We LOVE bumping those soft Eurojets gluejobs with our SU-27s! Flying tanks!;-)
They were still formation landing at Sheppard as late as January but until I just watched this I hadn't realized why that was discontinued. Thanks for the video.
I haven't seen this asked yet: with our 20/20 hindsight, would a LEVEL collision have been more survivable? The closure angle and speed difference were relatively small, I figure they knock each other off the runway, break the landing gears, slide a long way, but most importantly, don't turn over. Yanking a slow aircraft into the air is usually a huge risk anyway for a stall and loss of control and rolling inverted or half-inverted through a snap roll anyhow. When the collision was inevitable, pulling the power and hitting the other aircraft while rolling down the runway may have been a better option. Of course, from the safety of our armchair :(
This is an interesting question, and not one that comes up often. In T-6 land, we brief "The centerline is a brick wall.". You will do everything in your power to prevent crossing centerline into the other planes lane. That includes taking the plane into the grass. Crashing planes together is not predictable. Not crashing planes together is. It appears that when Cravin realized that wasn't possible, he took the only available out to save lives.
Physically speaking, the right rudder input would cause extra lift on the left wing due to the increased lateral speed, and the right wing would stall, or at least lose lift due to the lack of airspeed. Up on one, down on the other, and the roll happens. Is that right?
To a certain extent, yes, right rudder application will cause increased lift over the left wing due to the yaw. It also generates a left rolling moment due to the placement of the rudder above the longitudinal axis of the aircraft (when deflected you can think of it as a non-symmetric airfoil/wing acting perpendicular to the flight path) and which counteracts that right rolling tendency. Which moment dominates depends on the aerodynamic characteristics of the aircraft. In the T-38 the rolling moment due to the rudder, rather than the relative changes in flow over the wings is the dominant. When I was a T-38 SP we were demonstrated at a safe altitude the consequences of applying rudder with the gear down, when it was more sensitive. The result was an almost uncontrollable roll.
Rip for the fallen pilots, are the risks of the job. I notice through your remarkable videos and in comparison with other vlogs, that the selection of the pilots is more demanding on europe (spéciale french) morte in the USA. I wonder is what Pilot 1 who was in difficulty appeared to have previously worked on flight simulator, including landing in formation. Thank you Mr c.w.lemoine, for your very interesting videos, I have become for a while a big fan Salutation from Morocco.
@C. W. Lemoine Hey Mover, would you do an episode on the 4-ship Thunderbirds crash in 1982 (I think.). I’d like to hear the perspective of a T-38 pilot-if you feel it can be done respectfully. Thanks!
Im afraid of flying so Im not involved in aviation and don’t understand many of the technical terms. I know your channel is probably for aviation folks, but you do a good job of explaining things in a way that anybody could understand. Many thanks for that.
On a personal note. I know the father of the IP that was killed and am a friend of his. I served with him as s State Trooper in the Arizona Department of Public Safety. He had served in combat as a Captain in the U.S. Army during the Viet Nam war and was an inspiration and great leader as a Sgt. and then later as a Lt. and District Commander in the Highway Patrol. This has had a traumatic impact on he and his family. Please say a prayer for them and thank you for your empathy in the way you presented this.
Things happen very fast and at times unexpectedly in the T-38. I was a student pilot at Laughlin in 1981 out solo one day in the T-38. After returning to the pattern from the practice area, I did two "touch and go"s, and then came around for my full stop. I landed 3000 feet or so behind the aircraft ahead of me, so I landed in the middle of the left side of the runway, as the previous plane landed on the right side of the runway. (6000 feet of spacing was required for aircraft on the same side of the runway.) Touchdown was normal. aerobraking was normal, and at that point I let the nose down onto the runway.
I was doing about 85 at that point. I then went for the wheel brakes. The right wheel brake worked normally, but the left wheel brake was completely ineffective, as pressing the brake portion of the pedal went completely to the metal floor with a "klunk," and I instantly found myself on the right side of the runway, and immediately released pressure from the right brake pedal, and corrected the direction of the aircraft on the runway. I tried the left brake again, by itself, and still no pressure.
I then tried left rudder deflection with the right wheel brake to try and slow the aircraft, but this only got me down to about 70 before the rudder became ineffective, even at full deflection.
The end of the runway was coming up, and it then came to me to engage the nosewheel steering (normally only authorized at 15 mph or slower), and use the good right wheel brake to slow down. Upon pressing the engage button on the stick for the nosewheel steering, the aircraft shuddered, but I quickly corrected and kept the plane going straight. I then used my right brake gently with some left nosewheel deflection to keep the aircraft going straight. This was effective in gradually slowing the aircraft down while maintaining directional control.
At one point in there somewhere I made a radio call that I was going to stop straight ahead on the runway, but I don't recall where in the sequence of events this occurred. But as the end of the runway approached, I remembered that stopping straight ahead was required only if there was no steering, but since my problem was a wheel brake, not the steering, and I was then going slow enough to have the aircraft under stable control, I was able to turn off the runway at the very last taxiway, and get well clear of the active runway, where I stopped and shut down the aircraft. That way, I didn't have to make a mess of the pattern by shutting down the T-38 runway. My speed on the runway while attempting to slow had been such that I could not have turned off the runway at any other taxiway except for the very last one, just before the barrier.
Before shutting down the aircraft, I called for assistance, and waited about 45 minutes before a very pissed off tech sergeant showed up with a tug. But meanwhile I got to egress the aircraft using the built-in fold out steps from the left side of the fuselage, which was my first and only time to use those. I then got out the book and emphatically made a big red "X" for the airplane, with the annotation, "Left wheel brake inop." This plane had just tried to kill me.
When the tech sergeant showed up, the first thing he did was to check the left wheel brake for visible damage or leaking brake fluid. None. He then climbed into the cockpit, and pumped the left brake a few times, and sure enough, after a few pumps, he got left wheel brake pressure. He then reminded me that the "Dash One." had a note somewhere that said that 'pumping the brake pedal might be necessary if there is no brake pressure.' This did jog my memory of that note in the "Dash One," but that sure didn't come to me while I was hurtling down the runway trying to figure out how to stop that thing.
So I felt pretty silly at that point. But on the other hand, landing on the left side of the runway probably saved my life, as my initial attempt at braking with the left brake ineffective put me instantly on the right side of the runway. If I had landed on the right side of the runway, the right brake alone probably would have put me off the runway and into the rough. I did attempt at that point to try the left brake again, with no result. So I suppose one could say that I did pump the brake somewhat, in attempting to verify if it was working or not. But I still don't think it reasonable that the brakes should require any pumping at all, especially in the very intense and very time limited decision making in the cockpit in the landing roll out. But then I didn't design the thing.
I was surprised upon returning to the flight room that nobody seemed to give a damn. One of my student pilot buddies comically remarked how my voice was an octave or two higher on the radio, but that was the only feedback at all about the incident, which could have been fatal, or at least result in serious injuries and a destroyed aircraft. There was no debrief or even any questioning. I remain puzzled about this.
Yes, we did formation takeoffs and landings. I didn't find them particularly difficult, but very "by the book" and procedural. We lost no planes (T-37s or T-38s) while I was there. But I heard that one of my classmates who stayed on as a T-38 FAIP, was killed while on a night formation ride, when he and his student (on the wing) lost sight of lead while low to the ground, and then impacted the ground before they could reestablish their own situational awareness. I'm sure they had no idea at all what hit them.
Yes, things can develop and happen very, very quickly in the T-38.
Only thing I would add is that if a student pilot was in trouble and in danger of crashing, his fellow class members would assemble with marshmallows, ready to go to the crash site to roast him home. Class 69-95. Moody AFB.
@@maxcorder2211 Yup. Though they would say, too bad, then forget him.
When it comes to brakes, the T-38 is terrible.
I think three NASA astronauts have died in the T-38.
Your explanations on these incidents is superb RIP to all involved.
@KnoxTheBox chem trails are not a thing goddammit. Mover even made a video about it.
KnoxTheBox shut. the. fuck. up
Great video and commentary. As a veteran USAF safety guy, it hits home as I've investigated 5 Class As and 2 Class B mishaps. The one thing I learned early on in flying was that you never try to salvage a bad approach or landing especially with pilots with limited experience and capability. Going around is a mark of good airmanship.
I spent 1000+ hours giving dual in GA aircraft, so I understand your point about an IP wanting to let the student go as far as it was safe to go, in the hopes that they'd recognize the error of their ways and learn from the experience. But in my case we weren't landing at 140+ knots. These guys landed faster than we would cruise, truth-be-told. So there's a whole other level of complexity, well above what I had to do...even in multi-engine aircraft.
Tough break for those guys, may they RIP. My sincerest condolences to their families.
I have the same background as you. This tragic accident highlights an instructor's dilemma: The best way of learning is by doing, which means that the student should be allowed to discover his or her mistake and then correct it. The margin between success and failure can be very short.
Tom B yeah this is sad. NASA lost some guys in t38 flights back in the day. They lost a gemeni flight that hit the damn factory the capsule was being made in. Another guy had a bird strike and couldn’t punch out, can’t remember why.
I remember as an instructor myself, the hardest thing you had to do was to sit on your hands sometimes!
I flew with Cravin numerous times at Vance, including my last 4-ship of UPT and Travis was a friend from school. Grieving with one of my mentors, he reminded me "Sometimes we forget how dangerous our job is, because of easy we make it look."
I'm a non-pilot that's been fascinated by fighters since I was a kid. I've learned more about the subject in a few months of watching your videos than in my lifetime of reading and watching videos. Awesome stuff!!
Really tough day for the Shooter’s. Both those dudes were awesome. The IP was undoubtedly one of the best instructors and human beings I’ve ever met. People always say you’ll know friends who end up dying in the business. It’s just surreal seeing that happen to a fellow stud and one of your mentors. Definitely permanently changed my mindset every time I stepped to that jet.
I’m sorry for your loss. Nickel on the grass.
Atollon9 I was lucky enough to have met Cravin since I know his son through ROTC. He was an amazing dude. I had a friend dropping in 20-05 so being up at Vance the day after was surreal. Really was a reminder of how serious this business is.
@@CWLemoine 2 or 3rd time I've heard you say 'Hook' in regards to performance. What's the background on that? Only an AF term? Never heard in DoN.
@@woodycoat in the AF a hook is a U or Unsatisfactory. Much like a down in the Navy.
@@woodycoat A hook is an Unsat performance. It's because a U looks like a hook.
Matt Kincade (instructor pilot) was a good friend of mine. He left behind his beautiful wife Gina and 2 sons, Kyle and Brandon. Thank you for the information on this tragic mishap!
This always breaks my heart. I was orphaned in early 60s during horrible Soviet days and 5-6 years old. I tell you, a son NEEDS his father. No-one taught me anything about life, how to manage a family, insurance, financial planning, etc, which really causes one to make wrong life choices! Why do countries of mine struggle many times to prosper? Well, can you imagine hundreds and thousands of orphaned kids, who (if they are not offered to other parents in other nations) 20 years later are the ones that must restore country your previous generations caused to crash? So many young people who dads died, no education, and mostly no University educated orphans. So it will take time for most countries crippled by WW2 to educate next generation, IF next generation without fathers who saved to educate their kids, could somehow work triple waiter sifts to educate themselves. Believe me, nation with so many broken families caused by wars can take many generations to build prosperity again..IF your nation is allowed to grow and not hurt further by foreign Sovereignties who try to keep your nation damaged with 4 - 5 sanctions and blocking every attempt for one's nation to trade. So, the boys of my and next generation might have fathers who are unable to train OUR boys how to manage their families! Why is it so difficult to just live in peace, and perhaps even help broken "Nation of Orphans" to recover. BUT, I must give glory to God as well for forgiving us and under good leadership and strong Church, the Russian Federation...the Bear's Cubs are doing ok, and most Churches and Cathedrals are restored with kremlins covered in real gold!
So, depending on ages of these two boys, I pray and trust that you have strong family that will support them and creates in them spirits of exceptional stature! May God comfort you two sons those days when you miss your dad! I cannot express how bad it feels when son needs father for love and advice! We pray for you and all kids who are orphaned in all nations, not understanding how in our days have not had leaders that notice that wars are bad in so many ways. THAT is why Kremlin, who can turn Earth into charcoal, try to avoid war at any cost. We killed enough and evolved into the Light. All love to our Western Partners!
I'm not qualified by temperament or training to make an intelligent comment save to pray for peace for the family and friends of those affected. Much respect to those who do this every day.
Thank you i appreciate it. I knew trav from elementary school and junior high. At warren walker in san diego My parents know his parents. My buddy told me about travis dying and i just couldnt believe it, like i am still having a hard time accepting that he's gone.
Hey mover. Really appreciate your input here. I was a member of Travis's (the mishap student) UPT class at Vance, 20-06. I was about to start engines in the T1 when I saw the accident. Flew a lot of formation with Travis in T-6s, he was always one of our best. Seeing the AIB results honestly helps with closure, and I thank you for taking the time to explain this and offer your opinions. If there is anything that Folds of Honor can/is planning to do, please let me know and I can reach out to the rest of our class to see if there's any way we can help at all.
Did he have a family or children? That's typically what Folds does (educational scholarships). I believe the IP had children.
@@CWLemoine He recently got legally married to his fiancee, they were waiting on the church marriage until after UPT I think. She was a couple classes ahead of us at Vance, last I heard she had gone through IFF and was heading to fly A-10s.
Geez. That had to be rough for her.
"Seeing the AIB results honestly helps with closure"...Sorry Zack for losing a friend so early in your career. We made it out of UPT w/o losing anyone but lost a few later. It's never easy. Good luck to you in your future a/c.
My condolences to you Zack and his wife and family, as well as IP's family. 😞
Total respect to you for your professionalism, thanks for explaining clearly and my deepest sympathies to all the families involved. thanks for keeping us safe!
formation approaches thru the weather to a formation landing in the 38 is one of the most challenging things I've done. there's very little margin for error. I've also had great IPs who lean towards the side of letting you make your own mistakes-its where I learned the most to be honest. We knew the risks we took everytime we stepped to the jet but it doesn't get easier everytime something like this happens. Nickel on the grass
sean yeoh If you think a formation approach and landing is difficult in the T-38, just imagine what it’s like in the F-111. Large wingspan with the same runway width and the visual clues were difficult at best. When I flew as a wingman in the weather it got to the point that I had to fly lower and have overlapping wingtips because I could not see the body of the lead aircraft if I flew the textbook formation.
What dictates the need for a formation landing in the first place? In what situation can't you just break one after the other and come in sequentially?
@@rzr2ffe325 military loves to do shit just because they can.
Try landing on a aircraft carrier at night
@@thirstybonsai1888 For a sec, I pictured formation landing on a carrier. :)
As an aircrew member it’s always tough to listen to and/or watch a mishap, especially when there’s fatalities as a result, but there’s always things we can learn from them in hopes of not repeating the same error chain; never to judge, or criticize. Great work Mover, this was an excellent video! RIP to the mishap crew.
Mover, thank you for today's video and information. My nephew, by marriage, is currently stationed at Vance AFB and his wife is a civilian employee, so with social media, my wife and I knew about the incident fairly quickly afterward. He was flying the T-6 at the time of the incident and now in the T-1, he wants to fly the 'heavies'. When we visited later that evening, I told him my first thought was the incident was caused by the wingtip vortices of the lead aircraft. He dropped me a text today telling me to watch out today's video. The information you provided really drives home the fact that aircraft control and situational awareness can not be stressed enough. Flying final in any aircraft is a hard thing to manage, in a crosswind or formation flying with everything sticking out into the wind. You are correct, the runway is 150 ft wide which doesn't leave a lot of room for errors. And yes, he confirmed, a memo drop was issued stating that formation landings are prohibited in AETC. But also said that ENJJPT NATO caused some push back because some countries require proficiency with formation landing. Thank you for the video update, the information.
Mark
Mover, as always thank you for your exceptional and professional documentation of this tragic incident. I'm a student at Vance now and it's a challenging topic to think about, let alone discuss. I appreciate your respect for the situation and individuals involved.
Hang in there Grant. Anytime there is an accident in the a/c you are currently flying the first question is, was it the plane or the pilot. Now we know and can learn from it. Good luck in UPT and your future a/c.
I did 36 mos as a faip, in addition to several thousand hours as a civilian ip. I absolutely love the T-38, but it does have some quirks. As I read the accident report I could feel it happening. Rip guys.
We all experienced the T-38's tendency to land long, and I can see the accident aircraft letting his speed get away from him, so when he lifted the nose to aerodynamically brake he had too much smash and decided to go flying again. It's easy to do, especially with wx distractions. I don't like to lay blame but I feel that the IP was obviously behind the airplane. I've been in the same state but was lucky enough to get away with it.
Poor bastards.
Good video brother
It was definitely a tough one to read and go through. Thanks for the words.
IP was definitely behind the plane.
NikoVlogs Being a former T-38 I.P., I was there during many sorties with a student having trouble. You have to decide how far to let them go. With this airplane as in many like it, the student can make an input and you have very little if any time to correct it. The 38 is an absolutely wonderful airplane to fly, but will bite you in a heartbeat. RIP guys!
I disagree with the premise that the IP was behind the jet. It is more likely that he was trying to let the student complete the landing since if he had taken control then the student would have yet another Unsatisfactory ride. That presupposes that the extra rides were graded which I don’t know for sure.
@@sevenfiveguy it certainly wasn't unusual for guys to initially have trouble landing the little jet. It tended to be sort of like learning higher math, there was this "aha!" moment, and after that they just had it figured out.
I knew the accident IP very slightly, which is to say I met him once. We do have a mutual friend. That friend has nothing but positive things to say about him and his instructorial ability. We can second guess him all day( as pilots, we do that, it's a survival instinct) but the fact is this trap could have closed on any one of us. I have nearly 25000 hours total time, and I'd love for that fact to make me invincible..
But it does not. Bad luck, a second of distraction, even a malfunction in the jet that is undetectable post crash. Death is stalking us, as they say, and anyone who doesn't believe luck plays a role in our longevity is a fool. All experienced IPs know that students are actually all professional killers, there to do us harm. We do our very best not to let them.
Still, I have never had a student attempt to rudder roll over our #2 during a formation landing rollout. I would like to think I was prepared for that eventuality, and I'm going to tell myself that I am.
Check six, my boys. Always.
Probably one of your best posts, thanks for the detailed analysis of this mishap. When I was in UPT in the mid 1980's, we were issued two volumes of 'Road to Wings', one for T37's and one for T38's. These were published accounts of mishaps that although often fatal, gave us students invaluable knowledge on what not to do and how to recognize if you were nearing that regime of flight where something bad might happen. Another part of your briefing that really touched home for me was your mentioning how students can be very hard on themselves, and how things can 'snowball' and go from bad to worse. This is an insidious rabbit hole that students should avoid at all costs. You have to condition yourself to put it behind you, press on and talk about it on the ground. UPT is a long, difficult but rewarding year and there will be times when you make mistakes as you are learning. That is what your instructor is there for, to recognize this and show you proper procedure and let you practice to proficiency and get ready to pass that next check ride. Good luck and fly safe!
CW you said it best "it is very hard to read this". This is one of your best, unfortunately..thank you. It is obvious how fast this happened. Why would they do a formation landing with a struggling pilot.
It's part of the syllabus (or was) and likely something he needed to practice for his upcoming elimination checkride.
@@CWLemoine gotcha thanks.. Been watching old blue Angel videos, 4 ship formation landing with F4's, amazing skill...How about a car video for a change. How you regret buying a ZR1 instead of a C8...😷lol...
@@thereissomecoolstuff There isn't a single day where I wish I had something other than the ZR1. It's like a flying a Viper vs Fat Amy. 😂
@@CWLemoine I know buddy. I have ZR1 tastes with a C8 budget. I did put a deposit on a C8 Z06 whenever that comes out. Stuff has been good lately. Thanks for your work. Gonky's channel is coming along as well.
The Z06 should be awesome. I'm not sold on the FPC idea, but it should still be a fun car. The C8 looks great lowered with different wheels. I can't understand why GM chose such ugly factory wheels for that car.
I’m very sorry for the loss of the Instructor Pilot and the student pilot, and for the grieving families. My condolences.
Mr Lemoine, great commentary in this series of videos. I'm glad I found your channel.
I was an tactical instructor in T-38B's for 2.5 years at fighter lead-in back in the 70's after completing 4 years in the F-4D. So I appreciate your knowledge of both the training aspects and the fighter world.
This accident at Vance brings back memories of an accident I was involved in at Holloman, though as a single ship. At Holloman, we would work with all kinds of pilots of varying experience, new pilots out of ATC, former ATC IP's, and various foreign pilots slated for fighters. Lots of stories there.
The incident I had involved a newly trained trained pilot that was doing the normal familiarization rides to get them used to the local area and procedures, as well as the altitude at Holloman (4100 ft.). Doing several touch and go's, he would do incomplete flares and bounce a little. I took the aircraft to demo a smoothe flare so that he could see what that looked like on our runway in case it was at a width he was unfamiliar familiar with. Subsequently he again bounced with an incomplete flare. However this time, with a thunderstorm sitting over the mountains off east of the base, we were hit with a windshear microburst right at the top of the bounce, and immediately rocked over 45 to 60 degrees or more with airspeed bleeding rapidly. I actually heard the wind shear blowing us around. At that point I got on the controls and shoved the throttles to mil and applied slight forward pressure on the stick to prevent us from stalling and going over completely. We ended up slip sliding downward in the same 45 - 60 banked angle until the right wingtip just grazed the runway, and then the most violent snap I have ever felt banged my helmet off the side of the canopy as the aircraft swapped wings and came down hard on the left wingtip, bending up about 2 feet from the rear corner. That allowed the forward pressure to get the nose back on the ground for a rollout.
The whole thing started so suddenly and was over in about 5 seconds or less. In the end, one of the engines was fodded, so that counted against the accident and it became a Class 1 due to cost. I was so pissed off after we rolled out because I was 6 months from my DOS and then had this happen.
Hi Mover- my unit, 2/504th Parachute Infantry of the 82nd Airborne Division, was involved in the Green Ramp disaster on 3/23/94 where an F16 collided with a C-130 where mass casualties were involved while my unit was prepping to board for an Airborne operation. If you can someday shed light on this, I’d be grateful. God Bless Sir in all that you do for Folds of Honor, and for your service.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Ramp_disaster
82nd Airborne
I was 3/505 at the time. We had some people there but i was not personally at Green Ramp. I remember well. Was out on Longstreet and heard it and the smoke and burning jet fuel fumes were coming across.
As a former T-38 IP (back in 70-75 when it was a baby) I compliment you on an excellent and thorough analysis. It was always a fine line as to when to take the plane and even though we tried to plan ahead for student errors, you couldn't always predict what they'd do when under stress...had a 4 ship lead pitch into the echelon one sortie (yikes). Lost two friends and a student (not mine but at Vance) in 38 accidents; safety briefings are never easy. Major point...all this was in eight seconds (it took me longer to type this sentence). Thanks again for your good work.
Very nicely done presenting and explaining this unfortunate mishap. I graduated in class 84-01 at Vance and remember the 38 formation flights very well. Very challenging and little room for error. And today, as a LCP w my airline, the area of “when do I intervene” with a student is always a tough call. I’m sure I’ve let it go further than I should’ve have a time or two in the interest of giving the student every opportunity to learn.
You’re right... this was hard to watch...but we can all learn from it. Prayers to the families.
(You’re right...the jet is old...my dad was an IP at Vance and he delivered the first T-38 to VAFB in 1961. Went on to fly F-100’s in Vietnam Nam).
Excellent analysis Mover. You're right this is tough to watch but there's a lot to learn from it. As an IP it is possible to get surprised by a student. I agree that's what this looks like. There is tension between safety and learning that can be powerful. The choice of letting a student make and correct his/her errors or taking the jet isn't often clear cut. A kid in trouble but who is thought to be redeemable sometimes gets more slack than is prudent. Taking the jet in an advanced phase is a confidence damaging event. The decision is one that has to be made on the ground before ever stepping to the jet. A critical phase of flight is a big risk enhancer and I can think of none more risky than a T-38 approach and landing. There are no good outs if things go sideways. Below 500' a student gets little slack and the less aggressively he responds and corrects errors the tighter the leash needs to be. I have something approaching 3000 hours in the T-37, most of it IP, yet I had one of my first students catch me flat footed on a high crosswind landing. He was close to graduation and the sortie was a contact sortie for landing currency late in the program. He began drifting towards the edge of the runway and depressed the nosewheel steering with the rudder fully deflected. Three swings, a few seconds of strong alternating lateral G, and me taking control later we were dead stopped facing the edge of the runway. 110 KIAS to stopped in about 500'. Cool skidmarks. It happens and I knew he was one prone to silly reactions. That incident went a long way to seasoning me as an IP. I never was surprised like that again but was on occasion challenged to react quick enough.
We flew formation touch and gos in the T-37 and T-38 at PIT back in the day. They were a ball and allowed us to do more training in less time. I've had a few times where a formation approach and landing was necessary due to sudden weather changes and low fuel state preventing diversion, separate approaches, or dropping the wingman then circling. A couple are memorable even this many decades later. (Having to ease above glide slope as a Steerman crossed our final approach course right in front of me at about 500' is one.Yes, a Steerman biplane following I-35 in weather down to ILS minimums at RND.) We would have probably been fine splitting up in each case but at the time everyone thought we made solid decisions. No longer doing formation landings is probably the correct decision.
One question. Did I misunderstand you saying that the wing landing position is forward towards line abreast? That really seems like a poor practice that increases the risk of collision and leaves no out for directional control issues. Thoughts?
These sorts of after action reviews are are always difficult to break down and explain. You did a superb job keeping the analysis straightforward and respectful to all involved. I hope the families of both pilots find peace and reconciliation as time goes by.
Respectfully
D. Massey
There’s nothing better than the opinion of someone who knows exactly what they’re talking about, keep it up Mover 😀
THANK YOU SOOO MUCH!!! I live in Oklahoma, and have been trying to find decent info on this situation ever since it happened without any luck. Thank you for shedding some light on this very unfortunate event.
Yep, hard to watch. I have sat on an AIB, it’s the most serious, consequential gig in the USAF. I’m retired, but I live 11 miles from Randolph AFB, home of the instructor school, I can verify there’s no more two ship landings, they drop Em off in the flair, and it’s usually in association with an ILS approach for T-38s. I have yet to see a two ship T-6 approach there, but they may be doing it. That was an exceptionally good presentation.
Howdy Joe- I'm retired myself and live on my ranch out near Stockdale, about 25 miles from RAFB. I went through the PIT there many moons ago. I came and went during the tweet days, never sat in a T-6. Well actually that's not true, I own an original T-6D. :)
Just wanted to say howdy, neighbor!
I appreciated your fair assessment of the AIB review. I spoke to you during your live stream with Petter. As a former UPT student at Vance in Tweets (5,000 lb dog whistle) and T-38’s. You have to bring your “A” game with the T-38. Everything happens so much faster than in a T-6. I’m going start making donations to Folds of Honor. Todd, American Airlines, Ret. USAF Capt., Ret.
Thanks, Todd!
Mover, I appreciate all that you do for the aviation community. I must admit, just hearing you read from the AIB report made my gut tighten up. Seeing the HUD images made me sick, especially the swing from 348* degrees (2* left of the runway heading 35C) to 008* degrees which would be a 20* swing. I’m just sick for the pilot’s families. Thanks 🙏 Mover.
I remember this well, I’m in OKC about 70 miles to Vance. My Veterinarians Wife used to pilot the C17 and is now teaching students at Vance. I don’t think she will talk about this event. Really sad this happened. Things happen in the blink of an eye and it’s over, done with, lives are changed forever, no excuses and no do overs.
I'm in OKC as well went to Vance for a tour with an AFJROTC unit seemed like a really awesome place I cant imagine the shock that it brought to everyone there.
You're right . . . in aviation, one does not have . . . the luxury of a do over ! 🍀🇺🇸😱
I was a Crew Chief on the T-6A & T-38C at Sheppard Afb until i retired February 2019. It was hard to listen to your accounting of the events that transpired that day. As a Crew Chief we get attached to our pilots and sympathize greatly to any loss no matter who's fault they think it is. Thank you for doing justice to both their memories. I feel confident that your take on this is appreciated. Thank you sir.
This video alone make the channel worthwhile! What a thoughtful and educated assessment. For all the glamour associated with being a fighter pilot, a military pilot’s life is dangerous. This type of incident brings it home to you. My heart goes out to all the families involved, it also shows the respect we should give to all our armed forces and the sacrifices they make for our freedom.
My heart goes out to the families. This happened only a couple weeks after we helped support a four-ship T-38 demo out of Vance that was visiting Nellis for an airshow. It wasn't the same squadron I don't believe, but hearing about it so soon after we just spent a weekend with those crews gave us pause.
Just a minor point of order: the first two digits in the AF tail number (65 in this case) does not signify when it was put into service, but when it was contracted to the manufacturer. Given the no-nonsense design of the T-38, you're likely correct in that the mishap aircraft could have entered service in 1965. In contrast, new F-35s being delivered to the VT ANG from the factory in Fort Worth now have an 18 model year. The latest block of planes delivered to Nellis in late 2019 had a model year of 17. Some of the early production F-22s were ordered in 1991 but weren't produced and delivered until the early 2000s, yet the 91 model year remains. That's the money side of the AF making sense again, right?
Nice job, Mover. Those things are hard to read and analyze if you have an association with the mishap. In 12 years in the AF, I was in units that suffered 3 fatal accidents. We lost a T-38 in UPT during a practice single engine go around, a C-130 at Pope due to lightning/thunderstorm and a HH-53 with the 6594th Test Group in Hawaii. There is no greater melancholy than what one of these things generates.
Thanks for the explanations. You always teach me something new and useful. It makes sense to me that formation landings in the T-38 have been stopped. As you were discussing the challenges I thought “hmmm- there must be some benefit to formation landings … I wonder what they are, compared to the difficulties”. Then you answered my questions.
Watched both your and Juan Brown (Blancolerio) review of this incident. Learned a little bit different, no additional info from both.
Really well done. Your sensitivity and personal investment into the industry really shines through.
This hits personally for me as a former pilot, and I want to highlight the personality and psychology aspects.
I was top 5 in my class, getting my CPL, single engine, VFR.
I had a couple incidents that could have been potentially fatal. The instructors just throw you back up there as you said. I really took those mistakes hard, I call it a perfectionist syndrome. This also makes it hard to adversity adjust, we hate when things don't go exactly to plan.
I really feel for the student because I felt and heard a lot of myself in him.
I was a good pilot, but when I listen to people like you, it's in your blood, you are one with the machine. I never felt that :/
So sorry for the loss.
Btw, no I didn't continue at the flight school, met a girl and that changed everything 🤷♂️
Thanks!
I am not a pilot. I am an aviation enthusiast. I live near Enid and occasionally hear the T6s and T38s. It's been roughly four years since the mishap. I share your thoughts for the families. Your commentary was spot on. God bless you Colonel.
Thank you!
Tough story! Worked for the airlines many years ago! I've had the passion for all aviation since I was a child! I'm 51 now and to this day I still look to the sky when I hear jet noise! Thanks for sharing this story! It stinks, and I feel for the families! Great content, keep it up!
Just found your site and caught up on your videos. Outstanding job. This is a tough one to watch. I'm a retired US Army Helo driver, and LE. God bless them all. Stay safe and healthy. Keep up the great work.
Hi, I've heard your books are absolutely brilliant but can't find any in the UK. There are some on Ebay but they are around 22 US Dollars!
www.amazon.co.uk/Spectre-Rising-Thriller-C-Lemoine/dp/1491081813/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
@@CWLemoine Thanks for that - just ordered one now. Keep safe and keep flying.
Great presentation and brought back a few memory's as a flight line medic more decades ago then I care to count. Prayers to the extended family's of all involved.
Thanks for that one Mover...I could clearly tell how much reading that affected you...prayers to the families of those involved and I'll be heading over to folds of honor now to do my small part.
So, so tragic. You brought up a very touching comment about the release of the report and opening the deep wounds once again. I am glad to hear they changed the formation landing portion of the class. My sincere thoughts for the families and friends. Thank you!
Mover,
I was a Tweet FAIP at Vance in the late 70s so this mishap struck a chord. I went on to fly a couple of more fighters after leaving Vance. We flew a lot of formation approaches and a handful of formation landings especially in Europe where during the 80s there were lots of fighters in the air and formation landings ensured recoveries during those times when the pattern was saturated and we needed to get folks on the ground.
Having said that, I think there is definitely a benefit to formation approaches down to the flare. I've always taught the "stabilized approach" rule when teaching formation approaches and any approach for that matter. This AIB was a tough one because the student was never really in a stabilized approach after breaking out. I know that is a tough thing to say especially for what it means for the IP.
I also think there was a lot of psychology that you didn't (I get it) address. The '87 ride was a very big deal for the student. The IP was also amazing in allowing this '87 to do what that sortie is supposed to do and that is to bring it to the student. He was a very generous instructor. I also agree that he knew he was doing when against all instinct he pulled that jet over the top. There are always "eye witness" reports of pilots turning away from population centers to save people on the ground, but this is clearly a case where he pulled the jet with no chance of flying off of his flight lead. He saved lives.
Thanks for an excellent summary and especially for your clear empathy for all involved from the students, instructors their families and us old fighter pilots who've all had the sh*t scared out of ourselves in these high performance machines... but for the Grace of God, Mover.
Throw a nickel on the grass for these airmen.
-Boz
I agree with you on the 87. 87s are all about cramming in as much training as you can and getting the SP as confident as you can before the 88 or 89. The IP personality plays a "huge" part on the success of the 87 ride. Fly long, log short, that's what I always did. Fly safe, amigo!
Gut wrenching report. In UPT I was fortunate to have a crusty Hun driver as my primary IP in the 38 and he let me go further than the stick guarding Lt New Guy. I wonder why the IP didn’t use AB for the go. I used to do barrel rolls in the 38 using the rudder trim knob. It worked pretty good. I generally don’t think less training is a solution to an isolated problem. The civilian sector is suffering now from no stall/spin training. Coming from the civilian flying world with about 500 hours, I used to think the 38 Instrument panel was petty nice and I loved visual pattern work, close trail and four ship formation. The 38s were nearly new back in 1971 and smelled like a new car.
To Family and Friends of the deceased Pilots,
Peace and Comfort.
Mover. Great job! Sorry for everyone involved. I’ve commented on some other videos regarding this accident. What many don’t know is that PIT training at Randolph used to use formation touch and go landings to increase proficiency of both student instructors as well as instructors, so we could do formation landings with much more frequency. In the mid 90s, some general got scared doing a formation touch and go and soon after the formation touch and gos were banned, both on the 38 side and the tweet side. As a result proficiency quickly went downhill, especially for students after that landmark decision. Yet obviously they kept the formation landing as a syllabus item, and we struggled getting IPs up to speed.
Another case of unintended consequences of “dumbing down” the training system. Makes me wonder what a military pilot looks like 25 years later. What else got dumbed down and removed, or dumbed down and not removed. That plus a million other factors of pilots getting pulled out of the cockpit to do non pilot jobs, and placing demands on them that are unfair in comparison to their non flying peers. It’s a sad state from what I hear from my younger peers.
The “management” of the Air Force lost touch long ago. And true to modern times we put safety at a level that clouds our human ability to move forward. There is nothing about the business of military training that is “safe”. It’s all a managed risk, yet the safety card never gets thrown when the boss wants more information and statistics, pulling you away from what should be your primary focus as an aviator. But hey, you need to get promoted too.... the promotion system within the officer levels of the Air Force is a disgrace to the service, and is detrimental to our national security. If you need proof just look at pilot retention issues since the beginning of time. Management never seems to understand the real reason that pilots move on...
My analysis as an old T-38 FAIP was that this instructor was doing his best to let this student operate in a “organic” way, letting the student make mistakes but also leave the student responsible for fixing his errors. That would be the approach to give him the best chance for success on his 89 ride. While I commend him for this, the student had that rudder trick up his sleeve and the IP wasn’t expecting that error on top of the already messed up formation landing. It’s sad to say, but my advice to current day instructors is to remember that not every student will make it. It’s not your job to go to unreasonable latitude and allow excessive errors to magnify. EVERY SINGLE time I have ever been scared in an airplane it’s because I broke this rule. And eventually statistics will kick in. If you are giving your student extra latitude, which I applaud, then at least be guarded to take that jet the millisecond things get strange. Fix things with your verbal skills before you need your stick and rudder skills, if you can, and keep your stick and rudder skills sharp.
My other advice is to keep your head humble. Never believe that you are as great a pilot as your airplane is great. Relying on the “greatness” of your T38 (or any other airplane) coupled with the “greatness” of your own skills will get you killed. But it takes time and statistics to get the job done. If a student is struggling this hard, this late in the program, doing something that arguably isn’t super challenging to do (basically flying in stack beside another plane) then you need to put all that in perspective.
There wasn’t enough room for error here. If in doubt, take the jet. Don’t count on your own skills to save you in a situation that you yourself have never seen before.
Ironically, I too almost experienced this exact same fate as this crew. T38 formation landing at Willy in 1991. We are on the left wing doing the landing. Too much smash and a late power pull by the student, he compensates with an aggressive pull into the aero brake and we go airborne again, moving into an abeam position on lead and looking down about 10 feet, wing almost overlapping. the student moves the stick towards his head (looking down to the right) and the airplane follows, creating a slight vector down and towards the lead aircraft. We are rapidly running out of maneuverability as I snatch the stick, full blower, left rudder, and max perform what is left of the speed. We establish a slight vector away just as we smash back down, and the blowers kick in and we are back in the air. I was flying for my own life, as well as 3 other guys. Students make mistakes, but instructors are responsible for them, and ultimately the outcome. Be careful out there....
Best of luck to all, and my condolences again to all for this tragic loss.
Mr Lemoine, could the student, when told to go around, inadvertently used the technique from the propeller driven T-6 which requires substantial right rudder when full power is applied??? Some habits are quite hard to break and in a high stress situation I could easily see myself doing the same thing... Prayers for their families!!! As you said, this was quite hard to watch...
I wouldn't think so, in the T6 there is a significant delay between full PCL to actual compressor spool up time so right rudder is not required right away on touch and go's
It is a very sad event when lives are lost like this and I'm sure it hits close to home for you Mover as you have been there, done that and faced challenges in wartime and peacetime every time you strap on that aircraft. An accident like this is devastating to the family of the deceased and the military family of brothers and sisters they have left behind. May the student and IP rest in peace. (Bill from Slidell)
thank you Mover, this was brave of you to publish for us.
Thank you to the Families of the fallen for thier service.
And Thank you to all of our service men and women past,present and future for your sacrifices.
God bless you all.
Thanks Mover for your time and the personal approach to this channel.
Thank you for your honest feedback on all matters involved.
Some are tragic and others are inspiring.
And a few are even funny.
Keep the Faith and always make them tell you No !
I look forward to more from Mover
Tough video. Sad situation and outcome. I think you do the deceased a great service but going through these reports and explaining them. That keeps the facts straight and removes speculation and misinformation.
Mover first and foremost,I am very sorry for the loss of these pilots, my sincere expression of compassion, to the families during their time of grieving.What a difficult critique you performed and well done with respect and dignity to all involved. In the end, yes student error with rudder application and aerodynamic braking maneuver,,and the IP taking control too late.Respectfully,as you stated as a trained and highly skilled pilot,I can only listen and learn.It is easy to point a finger of blame,and talk about how it should have been handled but no one can speak unless you have walked in those shoes. It can happen to the best of pilots.It is a lesson learned through tragedy,my respect and admiration to all pilots who put their life on the line every day for our country.Thank you Mover for delivering this information with the utmost respect and sensitivity to the pilots and their families.
Thanks mover. As others have posted, this was a very tough video to watch. I’m not a pilot but have always been fascinated by the courage of the men and women who fly. You guys make it look so easy, us civilians just don’t understand the complexity and risks. Stay safe.
I appreciate the video. My father was a T-38 IP at Reese AFB back in the mid 70’s. He had some interesting stories to tell. Especially doing no flap landings.
Rest In Peace. Great input from you again Mover. This is a perfect example of the “when to take over” phase of flight instruction. There’s two aspects of a students reaction that always needs addressing in an instructional sortie. One is the “ok mate I took over because we were getting dangerously close the the edge of the runway and you aerodynamically flared too early.”
1. Safety.
The other is “ok mate I took over and completed the landing because you were consistently out of position and I needed us to get into position real quick for the touchdown.”
2. Learning has ceased
Whilst the arm chair critics can sit back and say what they want to say. People have to remember that this whole event took 8 seconds. And in that time you can minus the reaction time and the time it takes for the aircraft to respond. Probably leaving the decision making process to about 4 seconds.
This is why flying is to be a highly respected beast that can turn wild in a fraction of a second. Thanks for posting.
Prayers for all those involved and family.
I really enjoy these reports. Thank you for taking the time to do this videos. Maybe less of the ones that end in tragedy.
I agree - this video was very hard to watch.
As a retired AF Bomber navigator, I could never understand the need to place multiple aircraft in close proximity or actually ON the ground. I totally understand the need for formation flying while established in the air. Formation landings are, in my opinion, simply asking for an accident as described by this video. A blown tire could have even made this accident worse.
Once the bomber stopped pulling alert, I felt there was no reason to continue with MITO takeoffs (Minimum Interval Take Off). Current doctrine assumes time to generate and launch - there is no real requirement to perform a MITO . We routinely did 15 and 30 second MITOs with dissimilar Aircraft (bombers and tankers). Once the daily alert requirement was dropped, there was no reason for pilots/crew to be practicing MITO takeoffs.... yet we started doing them during Conventional training sorties as well once daily nuclear alert ended (MITO was never a Conventional tactic). I've been retired almost 20 years now and bombers STILL perform MITOS. It makes no sense.
As a 'passenger' sitting in the bottom of a bomber aborting as lead on a runway at visual minimums, I was justifiably upset that upon landing at our FOB 8 hours later that #2 claimed to have missed us by mere feet as we pulled off the runway. I brought this issue up many times until my retirement but never received an adequate answer to 'Why are we doing this?'
I agree with Al. He and I went through B-52 training together. All aircraft in close proximity to one another can go catastrophically wrong in no time. Maybe the lessons learned here will save folks later.
this seems a bit wierd to me that there wouldn't be a sufficient proceedure to avoid an aborting aircraft when doing MITO's, could you please explainwhat such proccedure was in your time (if there was one at all)?
@@nitaihat12 In a MITO, as soon as a 'rolling' aircraft realizes they are aborting, they make an abort call. The theory is that an abort issue will usually happen early in the takeoff (when full power is applied and something breaks) or the rolling bomber is not going to reach takeoff calculations (70 knot call). The next bomber merely holds his takeoff until the preceding aircraft has left the runway and the MITO 'stream' begins again.
The case I mentioned, we were deployed and takeoff visual range was at minimum (I believe that they were 'optimistically' above mins - meaning not 'at' mins but below)due to heavy fog. We also had a light rain as well and a pre-dawn takeoff - it was very dark out. We were lead and aborted halfway down the runway and made the abort call. As #2 later debriefed, once we put in power to take off, he could no longer see us. Then, he did not hear our abort call (we never found out why). #2 proceeded with his 15 second MITO timing (when lead puts in full power the next aircraft starts a timer and pushes power up when 15 seconds elapse).
After we debriefed at the FOB, I couldn't help but say with typical gallows humor, "Imagine being the #2 Copilot as they roll down the runway and see our tail disappearing into the fog off to his right and saying, 'Hey look! There's lead! Wonder what he's doing on the taxiway!"
A senseless tragedy was narrowly avoided by PURE chance.
@@jimwilliams2682 Hey Jimmy! Last of the 'Swamp Gas and Magic' Navigators!!
Sometimes it's as simple as "institutional inbreeding"
As hard as this is to watch/read, I really appreciate the insight you provide to these reports. Thank you.
Thanks for the great walkthrough; it was tough to hear and we feel you. Formation landings always terrified me in the T-6 and T-45. I'm glad to see that's stopped, at least on the USAF side.
Tough one for sure, thanks for your experience input.
Mover your Books are great!
Emmanuel Ponce yes get ready for sleepless night. You can’t put them down
Emmanuel Ponce - sleep absolutely goes by the wayside. I also forgot to eat too!
I was a T-38 A IP back in the 70's and I recall that at the time the rudder had a mechanical limiter ( though the nose gear trunnion) which limited rudder deflection to 6 degrees in the clean configuration. With the gear extended, however, the limiter was cut out and the authority increased to 20 degrees.
I noted in your description that no mention was made of this this extra rudder authority in the landing configuration which would have a significant effect on the rudder inputs remarked on.
Perhaps the T-38 C modifications removed or modified the rudder limiter system.
The T-38C also has enhanced sensitivity in the rudder with the gear down. Same for the elevator control. We had the rudder sensitivity with the gear down demonstrated to us in the MOA on one of our first flights in the T-38 as a lesson in what not to do.
Sorry for the loss of the two pilots in this incident. In any dangerous occupation when a incident of this nature happens, it effects everyone, which it should. I retired as a LEO in 2012, just wondering if your Sherrif's Office has a air wing and or do you still patrol? In Vermont, our reliance on aircraft when needed is/was through the Vermont National Guard Rotoray wing under a drug interdiction joint state/local program. Thank you for your efforts to make a professional and informative channel! Stay safe
The absolute level of respect that Mover has for these kinds of things....wow. I mean, its what? "Expected", right? I mean we are talking about warriors or soon-to-be warriors following in HIS foot steps that never get the chance to...I mean, what I am trying to say is the reverence that Mover has in these AIB Review sessions is sobering and admirable. More to the point - the fact that he takes the time (and dedication) to share this with us in layterms is duly admirable (so, thank you, Mover!). It always strikes me when he says something beginning with "Its hard to..." Like, in this video, "Man its hard to look at that" referring to the hard roll angle in the HUD Tape. Or in the "Star Wars Canyon" F/A-18 loss video "Man, its hard to read that." I appreciate all of it, Mover. Really. So thank you for surviving these brave souls the way that you do.
Tough one and thanks for the breakdown, explanation of the mishap. As a T-45A/C Goshawk IP, I did two JAG investigations for two separate Goshawk Class A mishaps. One was a section go, mishap aircraft flamed out at 800’ AGL, both IP and student punched safely. The other was a BFM 1v1, loss of control and again, both IP and student safely ejected. The best part of these two Class A mishaps were that both crew safely ejected and survived. Always tough when we lose fellow IPs and studs, especially during training.
Very informative and presented respectfully. I'm a current C model maintainer, but cut my teeth on the A model many years ago. May they both R.I.P.
Mover, I was a FAIP at Reese. 85-89. This kind of poor flying (getting too wide) on an 87 ride indicates to me that the student was having trouble on wing landings. Was the 87 ride after a failed check ride? Had he even made it to a check ride? Riding with a O-5 tells me this guy was having signficant problems in the jet. Was the IP one of the squadron leaders? Or just a line IP? And nothing mentioned about the touch down speed for the Lead AC. Were they fast? ...which would not have helped #2 causing to get airborne again from the aerobrake. I can't help but feel like this student was a big time problem (based on all I saw at Reese) and that the IP should have been doubly guarded for mistakes - especially if the student's problems were wing landings. Sure would like to know for sure. Anyway, we lost an IP at Reese (no flap landing) with SQ supervision flying with sad sack student on the way out of the program - letting him go too far - flared high, stall, wing tip hits, jerks left off the runway....you get the rest - on a graduation day. I was one of those who got to fly with sad sack students. One for refusing to give up AC control!!!! And that guy was flying when we blew the right tire on takeoff at 160kts compressor stalling the right engine! I immediatley took the jet and as he gave up control held both hands up (way up), so I couldn't see out the front! Had to tell him to put his hands down as we slow flighted out with gear hanging, with a 75' flame out the back in broad daylight. And 90 degrees at Reese PA 3,300 ft.. I took the jet. I wish the IP here would have done so, when the stick came back too far in the aerobrake.. Just jam it back and deal with it afterwards. This crap gets me all worked up. Thanks for sharing.
Excellent review. I flew Tweets and -38s as a student in UPT and then taught in white jets (Tweets and T-6s) for 16 years. Tough video to watch as a former AF IP, even moreso because this happened in the town I live in now and the mishap #1 student that was killed gave my son some pointers as they were both crossing paths finishing/starting T-6s. I've been through an 89 in -38s and the stress I put on myself was absolutely enormous so I can certainly relate to what the mishap student was likely experiencing. Monday morning QBing is easy, but my gosh, to get a T-6 main gear within 15' of the edge of the runway and I'd be screaming "I have the aircraft!" and the -38 is a rocket on the landing roll compared to the T-6. I will never forget the stress of trying to hang in there in perfect position on the wing during a wing landing because it is not an easy thing to do, even when you spread out laterally and take the center of your half of the runway because there's so much to crosscheck. When it's done right it's a thing of beauty and pride but there was always stress to do it well. I hate to see the maneuver go away because it certainly teaches you confidence but maybe it's for the best. My condolences to all involved. RIP, my brothers.
There are plenty of ways to teach confidence in your flying ability in an aircraft. The risk of accomplishing a formation landing in a training environment, especially when considering it is not at all used in the CAF, does not live up to the reward of the satisfaction of executing it well. Formation landings are challenging and fun, but they haven't been necessary for a long time.
Good break down of this accident. I graduated USAF UPT 68-F.
Mover, as always thanks for the coverage, and RIP to the deceased. The 142nd Fighter Wing, flying out of PDX, are still formation landing their F-15C Eagles as of 5-11-2020.
Thanks for going through all that in such detail. Probably more detail than we all can handle. Esspecially the point where they discribed the IP beeing ripped out of the plane... just terrible. But I support your oppinion that they flew it though the crash to save the other two pilots. What kind of man you have to be for that. Just really hard to imagin. I reckon the IP was a bit "late" on his assesment most likley because he knew the trainee had trouble with blaming himself etc and he want to avoid to interact prematurly and give him a bigger chance to correct the misstake himself.
I wish all the Friends and Families all the best and basically can just hope that all of that is for some greater good and saves lives in the future.
I agree strongly with this assessment. Sometimes the best way to help a student out of a negative cycle is to let them make, realize and correct an error on their own. Very difficult line to walk.
Watching Talons fly over out of Columbus,MS. is what got me to go Air Force and that was 40 years ago.
After hearing you read through this, my question is how could the student pilot safely correct the leftward drift?
Very difficult review but helpful. Thank you, Mover!
That was fascinating to listen to. Great video sir , but also such a tragic outcome. I was aware of the incident and saw the news helicopter coverage but never heard all details of the investigation. Very sad. God bless our military , thank you for your service and sacrifice. 👍🇺🇸
What a tragedy....Thanks for breaking this down for us. You're a star.
I had hoped the AIB would discuss any linkage between the use of rudder in the primary trainer and the T-38. The SP had done well in the primary and may have reverted back briefly when lateral spacing became a problem.
In the old days you would demonstrate a rudder roll at high AOA in the training area so the student could see the huge effect the rudder had while slow and at high AOA. The student would then do one as well. Is it still in the syllabus?
Finally, not much was made of the over aerobrake, but formation landings were prime breeding grounds for getting airborne in the post landing aerobrake. A little extra speed (1/2 mv2) and touching down (being too low) before lead would combine with the loss of induced drag to spit you smartly out in front of the leader. The natural tendency was to aero brake quickly to stay behind lead. Now you are airborne at high AOA in idle (quickly entering the Sabre Dance region). You could see 45 degrees of bank in a heart beat with a stalled wing. Wing landings were fairly straight forward if you stacked level to slightly high, stayed aligned on your side of the runway and did not get slow. Unintentionally swapping leads post touchdown was briefed to have 2 stay out front once he got there and talk about why in the debrief.
Condolences to all who mourn their passing.
Rest Easy, those men.
Great video. I live in the town where Vance is located and also work for a moving company where roughly 80% of business is moving in and out people at Vance. I just moved the base commander, Colonel Simmons who is a great guy but did not ask him about this because I felt it wouldn’t have been something he wanted to mention as I wanted to learn more so thanks
terrific review, thanks for getting us pudnockers in the front seat. Running out of altitude, airspeed ( esp with 38) and runway, less than 8secs ...prayers to the families.
great breakdown, CW. you might have a job at the NTSB one day
Thank you for the precise review....you did a great job! I know it was difficult for you to read & review....be safe!
Thanks for the explanation Mover, helping us to understand it all, completely. My condolences to the families of these two men. It's always dangerous, but I don't think people expect their loved ones to not come home from training. Or, maybe I'm completely wrong and training does have a higher expectancy of fatal accidents....? My heart breaks when accidents take people away from us far too soon. I hope you are hanging in there as well, Brother. I know things like this will always hit close to home.
Hard as it was I found that very interesting. Thank you for presenting that, sir.
Is there a very significant issue here that military aviation higher ups may be missing? If the T-6 does require compensating right rudder when applying power, that well learned behavior may have been a principle cause factor. So...why did we buy an airplane that required right rudder when going to full power and then transition those students into an airplane that can safely be flown with feet on the floor for the vast majority of situations, including go-arounds?
Another question, why not preach that A/B should be used for all T-38 go-arounds?
That's a good question; I wonder if MSP1's use of rudder would be appropriate for a propeller-driven single-engined airplane.
what is the purpose of landing in formation like that? It just seems like such a added element of risk.
Alot of air traffic or getting your guys down asap. There are benefits to it for sure but im not a fighter pilot so i just have to guess.
Doc Holiday got most of it. There’s also an element of mutual support in the event an aircraft has nav system failure and needs to penetrate weather. Not to mention the airmanship and trust in your wingman/lead that is developed during UPT, especially for the students tracking towards fighters
@@waberryhill Alright thanks for info my guy
Hey mover, what about sharing your experiences and impressions of foreign fighters and military aircraft that you have encountered in training and combat simulations? I would love to hear your impressions on European planes or something like that, thank you!!
yeah
I want to know that too
He usually stays away from technical things as he is trained in things that aren't open to the public. However he may be able to which would be awesome if he does.
@@KeyboardWarrior101st yeah obviously I wouldn't want to hear anything that I shouldn't know but only general impressions
They want to use live ammo on americans, but they wont say it loud. You dont want to kill the teacher until you finish the training, LOL. Saudi student killed american teachers in Pensacola a year ago.
Privet partners! I suppose you left out Russian Fighters perhaps as the quality is so good to fill entire episode! :-) We LOVE bumping those soft Eurojets gluejobs with our SU-27s! Flying tanks!;-)
I really appreciate your breakdown of this. I know it couldn't have been super easy for you.
They were still formation landing at Sheppard as late as January but until I just watched this I hadn't realized why that was discontinued. Thanks for the video.
I haven't seen this asked yet: with our 20/20 hindsight, would a LEVEL collision have been more survivable? The closure angle and speed difference were relatively small, I figure they knock each other off the runway, break the landing gears, slide a long way, but most importantly, don't turn over. Yanking a slow aircraft into the air is usually a huge risk anyway for a stall and loss of control and rolling inverted or half-inverted through a snap roll anyhow. When the collision was inevitable, pulling the power and hitting the other aircraft while rolling down the runway may have been a better option. Of course, from the safety of our armchair :(
This is an interesting question, and not one that comes up often. In T-6 land, we brief "The centerline is a brick wall.". You will do everything in your power to prevent crossing centerline into the other planes lane. That includes taking the plane into the grass. Crashing planes together is not predictable. Not crashing planes together is. It appears that when Cravin realized that wasn't possible, he took the only available out to save lives.
Physically speaking, the right rudder input would cause extra lift on the left wing due to the increased lateral speed, and the right wing would stall, or at least lose lift due to the lack of airspeed. Up on one, down on the other, and the roll happens. Is that right?
To a certain extent, yes, right rudder application will cause increased lift over the left wing due to the yaw. It also generates a left rolling moment due to the placement of the rudder above the longitudinal axis of the aircraft (when deflected you can think of it as a non-symmetric airfoil/wing acting perpendicular to the flight path) and which counteracts that right rolling tendency. Which moment dominates depends on the aerodynamic characteristics of the aircraft. In the T-38 the rolling moment due to the rudder, rather than the relative changes in flow over the wings is the dominant. When I was a T-38 SP we were demonstrated at a safe altitude the consequences of applying rudder with the gear down, when it was more sensitive. The result was an almost uncontrollable roll.
Great Analysis CW...👍🙋♂️✈️ RIP to Those Who Serve With Courage !!🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Rip for the fallen pilots, are the risks of the job.
I notice through your remarkable videos and in comparison with other vlogs, that the selection of the pilots is more demanding on europe (spéciale french) morte in the USA.
I wonder is what Pilot 1 who was in difficulty appeared to have previously worked on flight simulator, including landing in formation.
Thank you Mr c.w.lemoine, for your very interesting videos, I have become for a while a big fan
Salutation from Morocco.
@C. W. Lemoine Hey Mover, would you do an episode on the 4-ship Thunderbirds crash in 1982 (I think.). I’d like to hear the perspective of a T-38 pilot-if you feel it can be done respectfully. Thanks!
Im afraid of flying so Im not involved in aviation and don’t understand many of the technical terms. I know your channel is probably for aviation folks, but you do a good job of explaining things in a way that anybody could understand. Many thanks for that.