The low weight difference is surprising given all safety improvements BRZ has over S2000 and extra space. If one puts k20/k24 in BRZ it would be even lighter.
Hey dude, as a fellow S owner, can you please check your engine/trans/diff mounts? With how much your shifter is vibrating, they seem to not be in the best condition. that can lead to issues down the line with rod bearings and such. I uploaded a video explaining what can happen. Happy driving!
Anyone know what tow hitch he has and if it's an easy application? All tow hitches I see online cut the bumper up but this is the first one I have seen that hasn't done that.
Honestly a big part of the reason I bought my '23 BRZ was your videos. Seeing the joy you got out of your own was such an inspiration and made me finally pull the trigger and dump my econo shitbox. I have loved every single moment of driving mine and I can't thank you enough for unwittingly pushing me into this.
I said in the community post that I can’t afford both so I would go with the BRZ, but if I were in your shoes, and I have a CTR as a daily, I would go S2000 all day long. Especially since you couldn’t stop laughing while driving the S2000. Thanks for taking us on the drive.
You can fix the top rattle by latching it and then hitting the top down switch for a second to preload it. Dramatically better to drive with the top up that way.
Additionally, when you rebuild the shifter (if you haven't already, I highly recommend it), LHT has new foam insulators to swap out yours, which has probably disintegrated. That little piece of foam helps with drivetrain noise a ton.
Love your videos as always! I shared my ownership experience in your recent MX-5 video and I also wanted to add my experience with this one too for anyone who is in the market for one of these. I agree with everything you said, I owned a brand new 2022 Subaru BRZ Limited same color as yours. This car was my first RWD and it was such a joyful experience I just don't know how to describe it fully. I never felt a car so planted to the roads for just $30K. I drove the car 30K miles before I sold it. For any of you that are planning on purchasing your first RWD car and you are in between the new MX-5 and BRZ, yes both of them are different but I promise both of them offer different type of joy in my opinion and you cannot go wrong with either of them. MX-5 I found to be more mature, it was a perfect car to daily and cruise in especially with that top down. While owning the BRZ I noticed I was more of a "troublemaker" lol because of how joyful that power was in that car. The power was more than enough to enjoy on the roads. Below are few of my opinions for anyone interested in the BRZ. Tires: I had the Limited trim which came with Michelin Performance tires, good in summer, however please understand these tires are absolutely terrible in snow, even light snow. I noticed I lacked some grip in rain as well. There were times where I spun on the highway because the roads were a little damp (this maybe due to where I live), I highly suggest getting all season tires (winter tires especially for the winter season) as Topher is mentioning in this video and his other past videos. Space: The car has alot of storage space. Firstly let's discuss the back seats, I'm 6ft tall and decided to sit in the back seat once just for the feel of it lol, it is not comfortable at all! there almost no legroom nor headroom. Yes you can fit someone in the back but for short distance drives only. Also interestingly I was able to fit a full sized suitcase in the back seats with no problem. The trunk is also decent for it's size and that dashboard was so far forward that your passenger can put their legs up and enjoy the ride lol. Space was never an issue for me in the BRZ. Blindspot: Depending on where you live, if you live in a heavy traffic state, I would recommend a blindspot monitoring system in the BRZ/86 because I did notice at times where I did not see the car driving next to me due to the back pillar being a little wide but again this is recommend and not necessary. Annoyance: Couple of annoyance with this car from the factory (this may have been fixed now, I bought the car in December 2021) . The seat belt chime that never goes away and the cabin engine noise. if you put something heavy in the back seat it will also chime and in order to turn that seat belt chime off you literally had to turn off the engine and then turn it back on lol. Luckily you can watch alot of videos on UA-cam where they show you how to resolve these problems and you don't have to purchase anything, you can shut all these annoyance off yourself. Tip: For anyone that doesn't know this already, you can use your trunk button to unlock the car without using your key fob by setting a pin. You can watch Kevin Vo video for this set up. I absolutely loved this feature, everytime I went to the beach I turned off my keyfob, put it inside my car and manually locked the car from the inside, then when I came back I used the pin I set up for my trunk button to unlock my car and then turn on my key fob and it was back to normal. Honestly I wish all cars had this feature. It was great at times when I accidentally locked myself out of my house with my car keys inside lol, at least I could sit in my car (P.S. you cannot start your car without the key fob, you can just unlock it using the trunk button). I had alot of fun with this car, driving fast in the back roads, practicing drifting in empty parking lots and testing out the top speed. The car is so planted. Although I choose to have the MX-5 over the BRZ mainly because of comfort and I really like the smooth shifting and throttle response in the MX-5 but I gotta say after watching your video, I sometimes wish I the BRZ again just for that power and handling.
If I need to put a large suitcase in the car, I put it in the trunk. There’s always folding the rear seats down. I own both concurrently. I would def choose my gr86 over the Miata if I needed one daily driver. Space for people and things alone makes it better for daily use, but the better midrange torque alone, the gr86 is more spirited. But it’s also hard to argue with the ND2 - that’s why I bought it. Enjoy
I went the opposite way. M240i 6MT to BRZ 6MT. The BRZ is so much more fun to drive, but sometimes, the lack of torque sucks..very rarely though. The new ones are mostly fast enough.
@@tyhyhh my dad own one and he drives like crazy im pretty sure the brz would not last with his driving style those subaru boxers are notorious for everything. Only problem my dad has is that the s2000 sips more oil after 120k other than that its pretty reliable.
You’re gonna need to replace a lot of maintenance and wear items past that point, bushings, etc etc. You can’t beat a new car in that regard and you very likely won’t starve the brzs oil driving on street
@@shiikon2193 i know thats obvious for any used car but then again i know what kind of issues brz and 86 have even tho they are new, and even if my dad is on the market for new sport car it would probably be the miata since it has one of the most reliable engine not just in sport car segment but in general
I tend to agree with conclusion. The S2K is better at the ragged edge and more enjoyable BUT the S2K needs driver attention and intention when driving it at the limit. The S2K is not what I get in for a casual fun drive. I get in a Miata or BRZ for the casual fun drive. I find it harder to get peak enjoyment out of the S2K more of the time.
I used to drive the STI, S2000, E46M3, RX8 back in the day when they were new. Reality check, the ND2 Miata with an exhaust and proper coilovers or Konis and Eibachs is more fun and agile than all those choices. It's also going to cost a lot less in maintenance and be super reliable. The GR86 is better to drive than all of those (the BRZ is a bit softer) but the engines in the S2000 and E46 is more exotic (also translates to a lot less torque feeling daily driving so not as fun in the city or slow speeds). Both options are more controllable at the limit and built to modern safety standards (yes, even the MX5 has high safety scores) We have the last hurrah of new future legends. Enjoy them while you can. The old legends were great but the new ones as as good and better in many ways.
Your videos have singlehandedly convinced me to look into buying a s2000, I owned a 2016 fr-s for 6 months and put 10k miles onto it, absolutely loving it. I think the s2k will be a great budget-friendly next progression
it borders on a miracle that there's a modern car in production with a 6 speed manual AND a physical handbrake😲the brz reminds me a lot of my current 2016 f20 120d (in estoril blue).. i've been slowly looking for a successor and this might be an excellent candidate. the price is very fair, too. 38:27 😃
The s2000 vs brz/86 argument is so tired at this point, 1 car is old the other is new, 1 offers more space the other doesn’t, both are good cars, the s2000 community just can’t seem the give the brz/86s the respect they deserve
The Lotus Elise was always my version of the S2000 as it is for you. S2000 was always missing a little torque which I didn't care for, but with the lighter Elise, the lack of torque wasn't as noticeable since it weighed 800lbs less. The BRZ is definitely a better everyday car, especially when supercharged like mine.
Having driven the 2nd gen BRZ and AP2 on track and in canyons, I keep coming back to the BRZ. The better body control in a chassis that is more solid feeling, combined with a modern/refined interior just speak to me more. I also like that the powerband (particularly midrange) is more meaty. For a trailered track car though, I'd have less complaints with the S2000.
Thank god for substitute Topher!!! Love you (OG) Topher, but your pal said what I was waiting for you to mention for the entire video……the s2000 fun factor drops significantly if you’re not beating on it. Thats a disqualification for me …. Which is why my toy is an ND2
S2000 = more comfortable Lotus Elise (still not that comfortable for it to be your only car for long trips on the interstate, or terribly practical for trips to the hardware store etc), BRZ = modern everyday car that happens to a low slung sportscar (fixed roof, decent trunk space etc). Those are my thoughts. 🙂
I respectfully disagree. I will stand corrected if i am wrong but have you ever driven a rear - mid engine layout? The feel is so unique. I personally have never driven an s2000 so i cannot say whether or not its the same but I have driven a lot of sportscars and there's just nothing like the feel of an engine behind you. The lightness of the front end is just a very unique feeling. Cheers my friend.
@@TT92348 - the low and mid range torque is noticeably stronger in the gr86 vs the Miata. The gr86 manages corners with decidely less body roll. It’s also more tail happy which makes it controllable and fun.
The BRZ is a great looking car and the overall package is great. With the new exhaust is sounds really good! But the Honda screaming to 9k is unmatched. I think the S2K is more of a pure driver's car than the BRZ. And honestly the S2K could probably outlive the BRZ lol
You cant beat a new car. You know the history of it, you can treat it right from day one. You know every single previous owner of the S2000 is some 24 year old clutch dumping it from redline. Now you're gonna buy it and have to deal with all the problems brought on wirh the previous owner.
Except the gr86 has 3 major issues from factory lmao. Coming from a brz owner who turbo'd it and had plenty of fun with fair abuse, they do and dont like power. They love boost, but hate oil. 😂
@@Synystr7 Every car including the ap1 s2k has issues... I didnt see a single issue until 25k miles BOOSTED. And I dailied it hard and did multiple track and drift days. It has issues but never blew up, never knocked, etc. I also moved from AZ -> CO so my "issues" were mainly cooling related due to the thinner oxygen and technically pushing more boost to compensate for the power loss of such. Still lasted 35k miles before it was totalled. Motor was still good. If you build and maintain them properly they are perfectly fine. I have friends that have been boosted for 7 years and havent had any major issues w the motor. But they drive theirs a lot less, granted they still "daily" it, they work from home.
Hey, Chris. Another Chris here. I've owned my MY 00 s2000 since 2020, picked it up for 9k, put some maintenance money into it, probably worth 18ish with the 135k miles it has. Never drive it in winter tho. Fair-weather car that gets stored in the winter. Went to Hawaii and rented a new BRZ on Turo for 3 days, and for some reason just found it boring and forgettable. Couldn't imagine spending 30k on one, but I have a used car mentality. Found a 2013 BRZ with 270k miles and paid a little under 5k for it and I love it. Seems just more connected than the new BRZ felt and just more exciting, while still being super dailyable. So I use it as a daily and winter daily, which I love. Also have a 5MT 94 Integra LS as a beater/daily which I love as well. This is an amazing 3 car solution for me, that totaled about 16k with actual values closer to 26k (18k, 6k, and 2k). If I were you, I'd keep the BRZ and s2k combo. For the money, it can't be beat.
With my s2k, I would never have that replace the BRZ. Wind noise on the highway is just not worth the hearing loss, and as fun as it would be to drive on dirt roads and in the snow, it just doesn't feel right in that environment.
I didn't watch your entire video, but I just wanted to come here to say that the S2000 is the better sports car, whereas the BRZ is the better practical car. Both can be daily driven, but hands down, the S2000 wins in my books. There is a reason why it's still a legendary iconic martyr in the JDM world and the BR-Z is not. Sincerely, Someone with both cars.
I highly recommend trying multiple different brands of oil. My S2000 burned mobil one pretty quick, but when filled with Castrol GTX it basically burns none at all.
My Ap1 drinks Mobil. I've used Castrol Edge with titanium with good result but my most recent oil change was royal purple and it hasn't burnt any in 1000 miles of daily driving
Haven’t driven a BRZ, have owned an S2k. Personally, S2k for me. Fun to drive and I actually like the simplicity of it…has the basics, not a lot of electronics. I’d probably consider a Miata before BRZ, but would have to drive both. Owned two subies in the past, wife also had one, and said no more Subie for me..loved the cars tho.
I’m in love with my BRZ! I have an LS swapped e36 that’s still a street car but more so of a track toy and even with the BRZ making half the power of my e36 it’s still a blast to drive and I don’t feel like I’m missing out on any fun driving it over the e36 on a daily basis!
I always feel so crappy when people talk down on the brz/86 because it’s my dream car, but all the negativity sometimes makes me second guess my choice. idk id still take a brz over the s2000, i just don’t see the appeal with that car. i guess there are always preferences though, i just don’t see why people always gotta talk crap about things that don’t suit them personally
Appeal with s2000 is a raw lightweight high revving car. I guess I see the appeal in it more than the brz, it seems like they're comparable but the BRZ would be less engaging? Better daily though
yeah people always sh*ttalk these cars for absolutely no reason. i just remind myself that theyre not enthusiasts, usually just trendhoppers. Never seen a real enthusiast talk down on a car, and if they do, its lighthearted jokes or valid criticism and not aimlessly being negative. Shoot man I had some guys freak out at my edge sport because one of them wanted one, and they were driving their built cars that hit triple digits by the time my edge sport is at 45 mph lol
People like the BRZ 86, but they are just being realistic that it is essentially a rear wheel drive Subaru Impreza. The MX-5 (and indeed RX-8) and S2000 offer that aluminium double wishbone suspension that is "more" sportscar-ish and more delineated from economy cars. Nothing wrong with economy cars and souped-up economy cars (i.e., hot hatchbacks, Civic Type R, Subaru WRX STi, Megane RS, Focus RS, Golf GTI Clubsport, Yaris GR, Corolla GR etc) I love those, but they are just being realistic that the 86 is a successor to the Celica and Sprinter Trueno, some of which were front wheel drive, some of which were rear wheel drive.
What do you mean the brz is rwd impreza? As far as I know they have dedicated chassis. Also Porsche uses mcpherson strut on almost every sports car front and rear and yet they are the benchmark in terms of handling so I don't think double wishbone makes that much of a difference.
20 years from now, no one will remember the BRZ. 20 years from now, people will still be talking about the S2000. If the question is which one is the better car, that is the answer.
I bought an S2000 brand new in 2000. Back then everyone was comparing the S2000 to the Boxster and BMW Z3 and which was better. Fast forward to today and you have your answer. The Z3s are all junk, the Boxster too expensive to upkeep and nobody wants them.
Agree with you that the twins demand low grip tires. I recently switched to Continental DWS06+s and the higher grip level compared to X Ice Snows I used to have is kinda making my GR86 a tad boring. Definitely going low grip next.
Never drove an S2000before but I used to own an Elise together with my current BRZ. Definitely BRZ is a better choice imo. Elise kept falling apart here and there, and it’s super hard to find parts for a 15-year-old car. BRZ is faster on track out of the box, and the Elise is nervous and unstable. People put crazy tires and a big wing Elise will do the job, but eh too much for me to handle.
I would add also to take to a track day (BRZ). If you don't want to have a bar behind your head everyday, the BRZ can go to Track Sprints or HPDE's without any extra work. My MX-5 RF can never go to a track day as there isn't a solution that works without disabling the roof and fits my 6' frame. :(
Damn the transition from the BRZ to S2000 screams "race car". The dash, sound, layout. Totally on point and nothing else quite as cohesive as a package from Honda since. They can build the worlds best RWD coupes yet they dont bother and it confuses me.
Broooo you're so lucky to have them both.. we have to pay atleast $65.000 for good condition second hand S2000.. and the BRZ prolly cost almost $100.000 brand new..
I know this is not directly related to your point, but the new FA24 is basically just as good as the K24 now, at least in terms of power. With like-vs-like (3" exhaust etc), the FA24 makes basically the same power at 1-1.5k rpm lower down the rev down. It's an impressive engine on that front. 🙂
Stratified Auto did some very informative dyno testing with unequal headers on the FA24. Seems to lose some top end power, but almost entirely flattens what remains of the torque dip.
They did not make the s2000 for guys that are 6'3". A local honda dealer had one on the lot and I just couldn't make it work. Not that I am crying to hard while I have the 23 wrx in my garage.
Is there any fix for the steering feel? It was the very first thing I noticed as soon as I drove the new one. It had been a long time since I had driven the previous gen but my first impression was that it was significantly less fun and communicative from a steering perspective which was one of the biggest things drawing me to the first gen. Huge bummer @thetopher
Both cool cars but I'd take the BRZ any day. The s2000 I still a 20+ year old car. Worn, fatigued parts and 20+ years is a massive amount of time for new cars to have better handling, etc. Especially at the prices they go for these days, just don't see the value in an s2000 at all. I agree with your build comments on the BRZ. The roads are absolutely atrocious and need something that can survive them! I'm curious, does this 2022 BRZ have any factory rev hang?
Would be cool to dyno the S2K and BRZ back to back. Lots of videos have shown the BRZ/GR86 to be just below 210 whp, which would put the car at around 240 crank hp. Might be a cool comparison to see.
Also, I think the oil consumption is only in the ap1 f20c. I had a 03 about 1015 years ago and I was consuming oil at the same rate as yours. I picked up an 06 a couple months ago put about 3000 miles on it. I haven’t had to put a drop of oil in it.
I'm a bit of a RX8 fan. I prefer it over the S2000, over the FT86, and I think the GR86 is roughly equal to a lightly modded RX8 (stock is ridiculously softly sprung). I wish I could like the S2000 more, but I've driven them a few times and would rather drive something else. And when I bought sports cars, 3 times, I bought a RX8 twice and an old Z4 with the inline 6 as my other. Cash in hand, I didn't buy the S2000. I didn't buy the FT86. I autocrossed my RX8s back to back with all these cars, and recently RX8 with slightly upgraded suspension and stock GR86 with sticky RE71Rs, I could see owning a GR86 more so than I could ever see owning the FT86. And I still can't see ever owning the S2000. The only downside with the RX8 is it's HEAVY, 3000 lbs (but 50:50), and it's tailored as a GT car meaning very tall gears (65mph in 2nd gear at 10k), but also quiet, comfortable, and actually seats 4 US sized adults in both leg room and even head room. You can gut the car. You can runner a shorter rear end. You can stiffen the suspension.
@@TheTopher Every car has a different style, so the RX8 to me is like a running shoe, partially because it's kind of the prototype NC Miata in some ways. But the unique character of it is the whole inside layout wraps around you like a good fitting shoe. Comparatively the FT86 or GR86 feels roomy, like elbow room and distance to other contact areas. It feels spacious. The RX8 is Miata proportions, but with a roof...and back seats...and a trunk. The only thing I'll note is if you are tall or have a tall torso (my case), head room is limited...like a Miata. There's some seat mods you can do to gain around 2" to 3" or so inches though, and you can avoid the model with the sunroof to also maintain headroom. For me (tall torso boy), I modded the seat which plopped me down lower towards the floor and into the seat. This in turn helps also wrap the seat around me and gets the ergonomics better (again for me). The RX8 is of the early 2000s era, so interior plastics are a little creaky and not as solid as modern cars. But it's a REALLY stiff chassis for the era so it's not a noisy space at all. It's too solid to be rattly or anything which is nice. If you're looking to get one, I'd stick to a lower mile version. It's just nice to start out with a good engine and then protect it well versus having your first action be pull the engine and get it rebuilt. Treat them like they are 75k to 100k mile engines before you really need to do something like rebuild or replace. So, the lower mile you go, the longer you have to play with it until you're forced to do something. Also, look for rust free. Old Mazdas rust...BAD. So make an effort to seek out a completely rust free one. The rear fenders rust a lot around their perimeter, behind the front wheels rocker panel area rusts, and the rear rocker area rusts. Those are big areas you often see rust. Find a car with none, and you can protect it and have a lot of miles and still have it look pristine. The series 2 ones have a number of refreshes/updates that people generally consider as worth getting, but they're overall VERY similar. One of the improvements is additional oiling for the engine to improve wear. But you can also bump up oil metering in the ECU, use thicker oil, and premix if you want too. I think a lot of the wear revolved around the thin oil they ran. They initially were rated for 5w30 and then later rated for 5w20...for an engine that requires a LOT of shear wear protection and is perpetually hot. I run AMSOIL 5w50 SSO in mine because I actually want shear protection. The "flooding" thing is a myth and mainly a byproduct of very weak starters in the first couple years. Mazda updated the starter a couple times, and with the newest and fastest version of the starter I've never had my RX8 not start. I have a very old, very worn out one...when I bought it...had hot start problems, "flooding," etc. that everyone complains about. It's very easy to buy into all the stigmas. I put a better starter on it, and then put 20k miles on it and never had it not start nor "flood." I drove it through an entire winter and three blizzards, hot summers, autocross, rallycross, and road rallied it 1500 miles over a weekend. I do short trips, long trips, do all the things they say never to do, and the only thing I actually adhere to is to redline it every drive (once warmed up). Suspension is tuned for a bit of understeer stock. If you just disconnect the front sway bar, you'll be close to neutral but have a lot of roll. I have the Racing Beat suspension on my second RX8 (the nice one), and that's pretty good, just slight understeer. It fixes the soft suspension and sloppy turn in shortcomings of the stock setup. It can also handle sticky tires which the stock setup very much can't. Minor changes pretty drastically change the feel of the car since it's sooooo soft to start with. In all, they're a practical Miata. Well, they're not. They're a GT car, longer heavier, not as tossable, but with very good double wishbone suspension all around. The high powered engine offsets the weight, but the tall gearing hinders the feel of power. It's a car you feel slow in until you look at the mph, or if you hop into another car after and suddenly wonder why the other car feels slow. At its core, it's a GT car, with soft springs, with insulation and quiet cabin, and with tall gears and not having to wind through a lot of gears. A Miata, even of the same chassis, is a moderately different thing, light and tossable, but also a bit "toy like" in the NA and NB sizes. I LOVE the ND gearbox with 1:1 at 6th (best thing Mazda did with the car). But I really disliked the ND's dead steering. I even test drove their RF Club. I find the RX8 more interesting and more broadly usable. On a side note: If there is a want for a Miata, I'm personally more akin to an old Z4. It's basically the grown up version with more room, more power, more style, higher quality parts, but still a true top down roadster feel. An old mid to late 2000s "85" or "86" chassis with the inline 6 is really nice, just depends on if you want a coupe or convertible. You can get the 3.0i for cheaper, and it's just an intake swap and ECU tune away from the si version. But you can get the 3.0si to start if the price is good. I also didn't find the Z4 M of that era to be terribly priced either, cheaper than a S2000 these days, plus keeps the hydraulic steering and is more "track focused" with the suspension than the standard cars, and of course more power. I'll say that generation of BMW suspension isn't something I like much. That era of BMW suspension philosophy is basically sit on the bump stops because sporty and bump stops are springs too. I get the intent, but man, that whole generation rides harsh. An E36 rides so much nicer than an E46, and an E46 with the sport suspension just feels like something's broke on the car or a kid cut the springs and slammed the thing. Mazda really shines in suspension and makes a lot of cars feel bad, so I don't fault the Z4 too much. Plus it's a lot better than the Z3, lol. If you haven't gotten to try an older Z4, I'd given them a whirl. They had a couple engine generations during that time frame, the older one heavier and less advanced but handles forced induction, the newer engine much lighter and more modern in technology but is pretty strictly NA only, so I've read. They're nice driving experiences, and the back end (which you're basically sitting on top of) is even lively and will oversteer in completely stock trim if you want.
Oh yeah, it’s already been done. Getting into the frame and inside the body panels is the most important part, so would highly recommend drilling. You don’t even notice it with the rubber grommets they put on after.
Hey Chris! I just picked up an AP1 as well and I love your videos! I noticed when you start moving in first there's a slight clunk (I think in the driveshaft). I have a similar issue and was wondering if you know what maybe causing that noise?
Try changing the diff & tran fluid. Additionally, having an Ap1 you will do well to do a valve adjustment and check the retainers for cracks. Upgrade to AP2 retainers as preventative maintenance
@@NicholasNunezjust picked up an AP1 last month and all these things were the first things I did. Car already felt amazing, felt incredible and even better after all of that refreshed.
@@AntagonistInPhoenix good stuff. I've put 100k on my Ap1 across 12 years with nothing more than fluids and valve adjustments. My retainers were cracking so I got ahead of that. My only non scheduled maintenance was for a leaking master cylinder leaking.. But the car has never left me stranded once. I hope you can enjoy yours as much as I have!
I prefer the GT86 to all these cars. I don't like convertibles (my father has a mint NB MX5 and it's nice, but not my vibe) and dislike all the enhancements of the new 86/BRZ.
Is the BRZ actually that tail-happy? This would be my first sports car and I am so close to pulling the trigger on it. I know it can slide around if you give it what it wants.
It would make more "sense" to get a hot hatchback or some kind of sports sedan/wagon as a daily (or an SUV if you "have to") but car enthusiasts aren't always rational! 😉
@TassieLorenzo oooof suv is NOT my kind of fun driving. Currently driving a Honda passport daily at the moment. I would love a hot hatch like the CTR but it's markup makes it unreasonable. Plus that'll be my 3rd Honda as the wife also drives an accord. Integra type S would be nice but markup and high price makes it unreasonable just like the CTR
@Indifference2000 Corolla GR is the obvious choice only REAL GR product. Don't tell me you can't find one for sticker like the integra type S these can be found for MSRP try harder
@@Indifference2000if you're looking for this level of daily, potentially consider the v6 6mt accords. Not rwd and does not handle as well as the brz/s2000 though, but very practical and still fun in my opinion
I'm 6'4" and I owned an S2000 for a couple of years. I immediately installed Back Yard Special seat rails on it that drop the seat an inch or so and that made a huge difference. Its not exactly roomy, but I was in my mid 20s when I owned it so a cramped interior didn't bother me too much. So, there is hope for you at 6'3"!
Hey Topher, there have been complaints about the second gen steering of the BRZ being worse than the first gen. Would you say the first gen is better than S2000? I'm surprised you said the S2000 steering is better because the S2000 EPS is probably it's one of the worst aspects of the handling of the vehicle.
2022 Subaru BRZ Premium:
205/60R16 Falken Winterpeak F-Ice 1 on 16x7 +35 Braid Fullrace A Wheels
MRT Sport Touring Axle Back Exhaust www.shopmrt.com/2022-Subaru-BRZ-MRT-Sport-Touring-Axle-Back-p/91z154.htm
-FT86 Speedfactory Catted UEL
-Lift: ADF 1.5" Strut spacers w/multi link spacers
-4.3 differential from a 2017-2020 BRZ/86
-DBA 4000 Front Rotors
-StopTech STR-600 high performance brake fluid
-Charcoal Filter Removed
-MTEC Clutch Helper Spring
-Pedal Commander throttle controller (set to City -4)
-Krown Rust Control
-Disabled active sound control
MSRP: From $27,995
228 hp, 184 lb-ft torque
Curb weight: 2,815 lbs
Get 10% off on your order from MRT Performance with the code "THETOPHER"
2001 AP1 Honda S2000:
Tires: 205/60R16 Michelin X-Ice Snow (F/R)
Engine: DOHC inline-4, aluminum block and head, port fuel injection
240 hp at 8300 rpm, 153 lb-ft at 7500 rpm
6-Speed manual transmission
Curb weight: 2,809 lbs
Tire size: Front: P205/55R16, rear: P225/50R16
Wheel size: Front 16x6.5″ Rear 16x7.5″
Brakes: Hawk HP Plus Pads, HP660 Fluid
Factory Airbox Mod, Billman Timing Chain Tensioner, AP2 Valve Springs & Retainers
144k miles
do you ever plan on going e85 and tuning your brz once your warranty is up? it yielded very nice gains on the first gen brzs
The low weight difference is surprising given all safety improvements BRZ has over S2000 and extra space. If one puts k20/k24 in BRZ it would be even lighter.
Hey dude, as a fellow S owner, can you please check your engine/trans/diff mounts? With how much your shifter is vibrating, they seem to not be in the best condition. that can lead to issues down the line with rod bearings and such. I uploaded a video explaining what can happen. Happy driving!
Anyone know what tow hitch he has and if it's an easy application? All tow hitches I see online cut the bumper up but this is the first one I have seen that hasn't done that.
Forgot to add that! It's a Torklift Central (EcoHitch) Trailer hitch for 1st gen BRZ slightly modified to fit on 2nd gen.
9:50 S2K and Miata have better engines
11:30 Softer, more cushy
12:30 *Best all-around sports car*
17:20 Header sound
21:00 Gotta rev it out!
22:30 Best gearbox
31:20 Practical daily BRZ, weekend toy S2K
33:00 Conclusion
Can you comment in all of Topher videos? Lol
Honestly a big part of the reason I bought my '23 BRZ was your videos. Seeing the joy you got out of your own was such an inspiration and made me finally pull the trigger and dump my econo shitbox. I have loved every single moment of driving mine and I can't thank you enough for unwittingly pushing me into this.
Glad to hear you're in love with yours! I can't wait to get mine 😅
I was sold on the BRZ right up until the S2000 hit 6k+. Oh, so sweet!
I said in the community post that I can’t afford both so I would go with the BRZ, but if I were in your shoes, and I have a CTR as a daily, I would go S2000 all day long. Especially since you couldn’t stop laughing while driving the S2000. Thanks for taking us on the drive.
You can fix the top rattle by latching it and then hitting the top down switch for a second to preload it. Dramatically better to drive with the top up that way.
Additionally, when you rebuild the shifter (if you haven't already, I highly recommend it), LHT has new foam insulators to swap out yours, which has probably disintegrated. That little piece of foam helps with drivetrain noise a ton.
Love your videos as always! I shared my ownership experience in your recent MX-5 video and I also wanted to add my experience with this one too for anyone who is in the market for one of these. I agree with everything you said, I owned a brand new 2022 Subaru BRZ Limited same color as yours. This car was my first RWD and it was such a joyful experience I just don't know how to describe it fully. I never felt a car so planted to the roads for just $30K. I drove the car 30K miles before I sold it. For any of you that are planning on purchasing your first RWD car and you are in between the new MX-5 and BRZ, yes both of them are different but I promise both of them offer different type of joy in my opinion and you cannot go wrong with either of them. MX-5 I found to be more mature, it was a perfect car to daily and cruise in especially with that top down. While owning the BRZ I noticed I was more of a "troublemaker" lol because of how joyful that power was in that car. The power was more than enough to enjoy on the roads. Below are few of my opinions for anyone interested in the BRZ.
Tires: I had the Limited trim which came with Michelin Performance tires, good in summer, however please understand these tires are absolutely terrible in snow, even light snow. I noticed I lacked some grip in rain as well. There were times where I spun on the highway because the roads were a little damp (this maybe due to where I live), I highly suggest getting all season tires (winter tires especially for the winter season) as Topher is mentioning in this video and his other past videos.
Space: The car has alot of storage space. Firstly let's discuss the back seats, I'm 6ft tall and decided to sit in the back seat once just for the feel of it lol, it is not comfortable at all! there almost no legroom nor headroom. Yes you can fit someone in the back but for short distance drives only. Also interestingly I was able to fit a full sized suitcase in the back seats with no problem. The trunk is also decent for it's size and that dashboard was so far forward that your passenger can put their legs up and enjoy the ride lol. Space was never an issue for me in the BRZ.
Blindspot: Depending on where you live, if you live in a heavy traffic state, I would recommend a blindspot monitoring system in the BRZ/86 because I did notice at times where I did not see the car driving next to me due to the back pillar being a little wide but again this is recommend and not necessary.
Annoyance: Couple of annoyance with this car from the factory (this may have been fixed now, I bought the car in December 2021) . The seat belt chime that never goes away and the cabin engine noise. if you put something heavy in the back seat it will also chime and in order to turn that seat belt chime off you literally had to turn off the engine and then turn it back on lol. Luckily you can watch alot of videos on UA-cam where they show you how to resolve these problems and you don't have to purchase anything, you can shut all these annoyance off yourself.
Tip: For anyone that doesn't know this already, you can use your trunk button to unlock the car without using your key fob by setting a pin. You can watch Kevin Vo video for this set up. I absolutely loved this feature, everytime I went to the beach I turned off my keyfob, put it inside my car and manually locked the car from the inside, then when I came back I used the pin I set up for my trunk button to unlock my car and then turn on my key fob and it was back to normal. Honestly I wish all cars had this feature. It was great at times when I accidentally locked myself out of my house with my car keys inside lol, at least I could sit in my car (P.S. you cannot start your car without the key fob, you can just unlock it using the trunk button).
I had alot of fun with this car, driving fast in the back roads, practicing drifting in empty parking lots and testing out the top speed. The car is so planted. Although I choose to have the MX-5 over the BRZ mainly because of comfort and I really like the smooth shifting and throttle response in the MX-5 but I gotta say after watching your video, I sometimes wish I the BRZ again just for that power and handling.
If I need to put a large suitcase in the car, I put it in the trunk. There’s always folding the rear seats down.
I own both concurrently. I would def choose my gr86 over the Miata if I needed one daily driver. Space for people and things alone makes it better for daily use, but the better midrange torque alone, the gr86 is more spirited. But it’s also hard to argue with the ND2 - that’s why I bought it. Enjoy
Sold my ND2 for an M240i and will never forgive myself
I was actually considering these two but ended up with the nd2. What gen M240i and why do you regret it?
If it's an F22 gen i can understand why. I drove an F87 M2 and thought i was in a bloated video game..
At least you have a b58…
I went the opposite way. M240i 6MT to BRZ 6MT. The BRZ is so much more fun to drive, but sometimes, the lack of torque sucks..very rarely though. The new ones are mostly fast enough.
Just bought an nd2, absolutely love it, hope to drive an ap1 someday
no miata has the raw visceral feel of an ap1, and I came from miatas myself 👍
I'm a purist so love the old hondas the s2000 is the best purchase I've ever made not super fast but it's so damn fun to drive
What's crazy is that, the s2000 would probably still be more reliable than the brz 5 years from now
all depends on how you drive lol s2000 have their own set of issues if you dont take care of them they will fail just like any other car
@@tyhyhh my dad own one and he drives like crazy im pretty sure the brz would not last with his driving style those subaru boxers are notorious for everything. Only problem my dad has is that the s2000 sips more oil after 120k other than that its pretty reliable.
You’re gonna need to replace a lot of maintenance and wear items past that point, bushings, etc etc. You can’t beat a new car in that regard and you very likely won’t starve the brzs oil driving on street
@@shiikon2193 i know thats obvious for any used car but then again i know what kind of issues brz and 86 have even tho they are new, and even if my dad is on the market for new sport car it would probably be the miata since it has one of the most reliable engine not just in sport car segment but in general
Bit harsh! 😂
I tend to agree with conclusion. The S2K is better at the ragged edge and more enjoyable BUT the S2K needs driver attention and intention when driving it at the limit. The S2K is not what I get in for a casual fun drive. I get in a Miata or BRZ for the casual fun drive. I find it harder to get peak enjoyment out of the S2K more of the time.
I used to drive the STI, S2000, E46M3, RX8 back in the day when they were new.
Reality check, the ND2 Miata with an exhaust and proper coilovers or Konis and Eibachs is more fun and agile than all those choices. It's also going to cost a lot less in maintenance and be super reliable. The GR86 is better to drive than all of those (the BRZ is a bit softer) but the engines in the S2000 and E46 is more exotic (also translates to a lot less torque feeling daily driving so not as fun in the city or slow speeds). Both options are more controllable at the limit and built to modern safety standards (yes, even the MX5 has high safety scores)
We have the last hurrah of new future legends. Enjoy them while you can. The old legends were great but the new ones as as good and better in many ways.
Personally I prefer the BRZ - but they are almost identical in feel (GR86/ BRZ)
Your videos have singlehandedly convinced me to look into buying a s2000, I owned a 2016 fr-s for 6 months and put 10k miles onto it, absolutely loving it. I think the s2k will be a great budget-friendly next progression
it borders on a miracle that there's a modern car in production with a 6 speed manual AND a physical handbrake😲the brz reminds me a lot of my current 2016 f20 120d (in estoril blue).. i've been slowly looking for a successor and this might be an excellent candidate. the price is very fair, too. 38:27 😃
The s2000 vs brz/86 argument is so tired at this point, 1 car is old the other is new, 1 offers more space the other doesn’t, both are good cars, the s2000 community just can’t seem the give the brz/86s the respect they deserve
definetly the S2K no question
Grz, s2000, miata… all I know is all three are unbeatable as fun everyday cars!
The Lotus Elise was always my version of the S2000 as it is for you. S2000 was always missing a little torque which I didn't care for, but with the lighter Elise, the lack of torque wasn't as noticeable since it weighed 800lbs less. The BRZ is definitely a better everyday car, especially when supercharged like mine.
Pretty soon you will have an entire team of Tophers. LOL Great review. Cheers!
Having driven the 2nd gen BRZ and AP2 on track and in canyons, I keep coming back to the BRZ. The better body control in a chassis that is more solid feeling, combined with a modern/refined interior just speak to me more. I also like that the powerband (particularly midrange) is more meaty. For a trailered track car though, I'd have less complaints with the S2000.
Thank god for substitute Topher!!! Love you (OG) Topher, but your pal said what I was waiting for you to mention for the entire video……the s2000 fun factor drops significantly if you’re not beating on it. Thats a disqualification for me …. Which is why my toy is an ND2
S2000 = more comfortable Lotus Elise (still not that comfortable for it to be your only car for long trips on the interstate, or terribly practical for trips to the hardware store etc), BRZ = modern everyday car that happens to a low slung sportscar (fixed roof, decent trunk space etc). Those are my thoughts. 🙂
I respectfully disagree. I will stand corrected if i am wrong but have you ever driven a rear - mid engine layout? The feel is so unique. I personally have never driven an s2000 so i cannot say whether or not its the same but I have driven a lot of sportscars and there's just nothing like the feel of an engine behind you. The lightness of the front end is just a very unique feeling. Cheers my friend.
@@Genevagirls-h2x Excellent point! I didn't mean to imply the S2000 drives anywhere near as well as the Elise.
FWIW- I own a gr86 and just bought a 21 ND Miata (club) and I think the Toyota is more fun to drive if I could only have one.
Why?
@@TT92348 - the low and mid range torque is noticeably stronger in the gr86 vs the Miata. The gr86 manages corners with decidely less body roll. It’s also more tail happy which makes it controllable and fun.
The BRZ is a great looking car and the overall package is great. With the new exhaust is sounds really good! But the Honda screaming to 9k is unmatched. I think the S2K is more of a pure driver's car than the BRZ. And honestly the S2K could probably outlive the BRZ lol
You can't get rid of the BRZ. I need these videos so I know what to do with mine!
You cant beat a new car. You know the history of it, you can treat it right from day one.
You know every single previous owner of the S2000 is some 24 year old clutch dumping it from redline. Now you're gonna buy it and have to deal with all the problems brought on wirh the previous owner.
Except the gr86 has 3 major issues from factory lmao. Coming from a brz owner who turbo'd it and had plenty of fun with fair abuse, they do and dont like power. They love boost, but hate oil. 😂
@@kushobrz bro you turboed it and had plenty of fun. Then say they have issues. I didn't and mine is 11 years old
@@Synystr7 Every car including the ap1 s2k has issues... I didnt see a single issue until 25k miles BOOSTED. And I dailied it hard and did multiple track and drift days. It has issues but never blew up, never knocked, etc. I also moved from AZ -> CO so my "issues" were mainly cooling related due to the thinner oxygen and technically pushing more boost to compensate for the power loss of such. Still lasted 35k miles before it was totalled. Motor was still good. If you build and maintain them properly they are perfectly fine. I have friends that have been boosted for 7 years and havent had any major issues w the motor. But they drive theirs a lot less, granted they still "daily" it, they work from home.
Hey, Chris. Another Chris here. I've owned my MY 00 s2000 since 2020, picked it up for 9k, put some maintenance money into it, probably worth 18ish with the 135k miles it has. Never drive it in winter tho. Fair-weather car that gets stored in the winter.
Went to Hawaii and rented a new BRZ on Turo for 3 days, and for some reason just found it boring and forgettable. Couldn't imagine spending 30k on one, but I have a used car mentality.
Found a 2013 BRZ with 270k miles and paid a little under 5k for it and I love it. Seems just more connected than the new BRZ felt and just more exciting, while still being super dailyable. So I use it as a daily and winter daily, which I love. Also have a 5MT 94 Integra LS as a beater/daily which I love as well.
This is an amazing 3 car solution for me, that totaled about 16k with actual values closer to 26k (18k, 6k, and 2k). If I were you, I'd keep the BRZ and s2k combo. For the money, it can't be beat.
With my s2k, I would never have that replace the BRZ. Wind noise on the highway is just not worth the hearing loss, and as fun as it would be to drive on dirt roads and in the snow, it just doesn't feel right in that environment.
I didn't watch your entire video, but I just wanted to come here to say that the S2000 is the better sports car, whereas the BRZ is the better practical car. Both can be daily driven, but hands down, the S2000 wins in my books. There is a reason why it's still a legendary iconic martyr in the JDM world and the BR-Z is not.
Sincerely,
Someone with both cars.
I highly recommend trying multiple different brands of oil. My S2000 burned mobil one pretty quick, but when filled with Castrol GTX it basically burns none at all.
My Ap1 drinks Mobil. I've used Castrol Edge with titanium with good result but my most recent oil change was royal purple and it hasn't burnt any in 1000 miles of daily driving
Haven’t driven a BRZ, have owned an S2k. Personally, S2k for me. Fun to drive and I actually like the simplicity of it…has the basics, not a lot of electronics.
I’d probably consider a Miata before BRZ, but would have to drive both. Owned two subies in the past, wife also had one, and said no more Subie for me..loved the cars tho.
BRZ/86 no doubt. More modern more convenient.
love it - how about an S2000 vs BMW M Roadster vid?
I’m in love with my BRZ! I have an LS swapped e36 that’s still a street car but more so of a track toy and even with the BRZ making half the power of my e36 it’s still a blast to drive and I don’t feel like I’m missing out on any fun driving it over the e36 on a daily basis!
I would say Honda special the old ones are ultra reliable so i wouldn´t have a headache about repairs on a old honda ( if there is not to much rust ).
Great review Topher.. You're an amazing driver. I always learn a lot watching your videos
I always feel so crappy when people talk down on the brz/86 because it’s my dream car, but all the negativity sometimes makes me second guess my choice. idk id still take a brz over the s2000, i just don’t see the appeal with that car. i guess there are always preferences though, i just don’t see why people always gotta talk crap about things that don’t suit them personally
Appeal with s2000 is a raw lightweight high revving car. I guess I see the appeal in it more than the brz, it seems like they're comparable but the BRZ would be less engaging? Better daily though
yeah people always sh*ttalk these cars for absolutely no reason. i just remind myself that theyre not enthusiasts, usually just trendhoppers. Never seen a real enthusiast talk down on a car, and if they do, its lighthearted jokes or valid criticism and not aimlessly being negative. Shoot man I had some guys freak out at my edge sport because one of them wanted one, and they were driving their built cars that hit triple digits by the time my edge sport is at 45 mph lol
I wouldn’t let people’s opinions change your mind about either cars, they’re both good in their own regard
People like the BRZ 86, but they are just being realistic that it is essentially a rear wheel drive Subaru Impreza. The MX-5 (and indeed RX-8) and S2000 offer that aluminium double wishbone suspension that is "more" sportscar-ish and more delineated from economy cars.
Nothing wrong with economy cars and souped-up economy cars (i.e., hot hatchbacks, Civic Type R, Subaru WRX STi, Megane RS, Focus RS, Golf GTI Clubsport, Yaris GR, Corolla GR etc) I love those, but they are just being realistic that the 86 is a successor to the Celica and Sprinter Trueno, some of which were front wheel drive, some of which were rear wheel drive.
What do you mean the brz is rwd impreza? As far as I know they have dedicated chassis. Also Porsche uses mcpherson strut on almost every sports car front and rear and yet they are the benchmark in terms of handling so I don't think double wishbone makes that much of a difference.
Topher is the reason I’m 110% getting a new brz
20 years from now, no one will remember the BRZ.
20 years from now, people will still be talking about the S2000.
If the question is which one is the better car, that is the answer.
I bought an S2000 brand new in 2000. Back then everyone was comparing the S2000 to the Boxster and BMW Z3 and which was better. Fast forward to today and you have your answer. The Z3s are all junk, the Boxster too expensive to upkeep and nobody wants them.
I think the reason why it's remembered is because they stopped making it. Guarantee the BRZ will be remembered if they stop making it.
put a k24 into the brz
Agree with you that the twins demand low grip tires. I recently switched to Continental DWS06+s and the higher grip level compared to X Ice Snows I used to have is kinda making my GR86 a tad boring. Definitely going low grip next.
Never drove an S2000before but I used to own an Elise together with my current BRZ. Definitely BRZ is a better choice imo. Elise kept falling apart here and there, and it’s super hard to find parts for a 15-year-old car. BRZ is faster on track out of the box, and the Elise is nervous and unstable. People put crazy tires and a big wing Elise will do the job, but eh too much for me to handle.
Need a comparison with nd2 as well
I would add also to take to a track day (BRZ). If you don't want to have a bar behind your head everyday, the BRZ can go to Track Sprints or HPDE's without any extra work. My MX-5 RF can never go to a track day as there isn't a solution that works without disabling the roof and fits my 6' frame. :(
Damn the transition from the BRZ to S2000 screams "race car". The dash, sound, layout. Totally on point and nothing else quite as cohesive as a package from Honda since. They can build the worlds best RWD coupes yet they dont bother and it confuses me.
I own both, the s2000 is way cooler any day
Broooo you're so lucky to have them both.. we have to pay atleast $65.000 for good condition second hand S2000.. and the BRZ prolly cost almost $100.000 brand new..
They're both good cars! If I had the money, I'd probably go for a 1st k swapped brz, with a hopped up k24 🥳
I know this is not directly related to your point, but the new FA24 is basically just as good as the K24 now, at least in terms of power. With like-vs-like (3" exhaust etc), the FA24 makes basically the same power at 1-1.5k rpm lower down the rev down. It's an impressive engine on that front. 🙂
@@TassieLorenzo good point 👍
Stratified Auto did some very informative dyno testing with unequal headers on the FA24. Seems to lose some top end power, but almost entirely flattens what remains of the torque dip.
Hello Topher. How well is your BRZ's rtv silicone holding up? Have you found any making there way to the oil pan yet?
They did not make the s2000 for guys that are 6'3". A local honda dealer had one on the lot and I just couldn't make it work. Not that I am crying to hard while I have the 23 wrx in my garage.
Is there any fix for the steering feel? It was the very first thing I noticed as soon as I drove the new one. It had been a long time since I had driven the previous gen but my first impression was that it was significantly less fun and communicative from a steering perspective which was one of the biggest things drawing me to the first gen. Huge bummer @thetopher
Yes thetopher drives Subaru BRZ
Both cool cars but I'd take the BRZ any day. The s2000 I still a 20+ year old car. Worn, fatigued parts and 20+ years is a massive amount of time for new cars to have better handling, etc. Especially at the prices they go for these days, just don't see the value in an s2000 at all. I agree with your build comments on the BRZ. The roads are absolutely atrocious and need something that can survive them! I'm curious, does this 2022 BRZ have any factory rev hang?
First! Happy new year to both Tophers!
How would the RX-8 compare to the BRZ? It might "fix" the issue with the BRZ's engine being boring! 🤔
This GR86 owner would much rather have the S2000
I went the opposite route. Sold my s2k and got a GR
Owned both. Stiff coupe for an easy win.
S2000 best car I’ve ever owned, And I’ve owned many cars.
I daily my S2000, it’s a blast
Would be cool to dyno the S2K and BRZ back to back. Lots of videos have shown the BRZ/GR86 to be just below 210 whp, which would put the car at around 240 crank hp. Might be a cool comparison to see.
They should be close! We’ll just have to do a drag race someday 😈
EXCELLENT STRATEGY. Choice number three! Get an ND Miata lol. Love your logic. 😊
Why get a BRZ/GR86 at all, when I can get a lightly used Jaguar F-type for low $30k...
Probally maintenance and repairs in the future. F type is nice though
happy new year chris :)
Substitute topher looks like peso pluma all love tho hahah 💯
S2000 is iconic and is going to do nothing but appreciate.
BRZ has a real trunk
dude im just now realizing.. how have you never driven a 350z on the channel?!?
I haven’t! I had 350z posters all over mh wall growing up and then I just sort of forgot about it…
Fast growing channel Well Done
I’ll take the one that doesn’t clog the oil pickup tube with excess RTV.
Also, I think the oil consumption is only in the ap1 f20c. I had a 03 about 1015 years ago and I was consuming oil at the same rate as yours. I picked up an 06 a couple months ago put about 3000 miles on it. I haven’t had to put a drop of oil in it.
ND2 vs S2K!
Happy New Year To The Topher 🥳🎉.
Great as always!💯
I'm a bit of a RX8 fan. I prefer it over the S2000, over the FT86, and I think the GR86 is roughly equal to a lightly modded RX8 (stock is ridiculously softly sprung). I wish I could like the S2000 more, but I've driven them a few times and would rather drive something else. And when I bought sports cars, 3 times, I bought a RX8 twice and an old Z4 with the inline 6 as my other. Cash in hand, I didn't buy the S2000. I didn't buy the FT86. I autocrossed my RX8s back to back with all these cars, and recently RX8 with slightly upgraded suspension and stock GR86 with sticky RE71Rs, I could see owning a GR86 more so than I could ever see owning the FT86. And I still can't see ever owning the S2000. The only downside with the RX8 is it's HEAVY, 3000 lbs (but 50:50), and it's tailored as a GT car meaning very tall gears (65mph in 2nd gear at 10k), but also quiet, comfortable, and actually seats 4 US sized adults in both leg room and even head room. You can gut the car. You can runner a shorter rear end. You can stiffen the suspension.
Man, I used to drool over RX8s at the dealer back in the day. Never drove one, need to change that!
@@TheTopher Every car has a different style, so the RX8 to me is like a running shoe, partially because it's kind of the prototype NC Miata in some ways. But the unique character of it is the whole inside layout wraps around you like a good fitting shoe. Comparatively the FT86 or GR86 feels roomy, like elbow room and distance to other contact areas. It feels spacious. The RX8 is Miata proportions, but with a roof...and back seats...and a trunk.
The only thing I'll note is if you are tall or have a tall torso (my case), head room is limited...like a Miata. There's some seat mods you can do to gain around 2" to 3" or so inches though, and you can avoid the model with the sunroof to also maintain headroom. For me (tall torso boy), I modded the seat which plopped me down lower towards the floor and into the seat. This in turn helps also wrap the seat around me and gets the ergonomics better (again for me).
The RX8 is of the early 2000s era, so interior plastics are a little creaky and not as solid as modern cars. But it's a REALLY stiff chassis for the era so it's not a noisy space at all. It's too solid to be rattly or anything which is nice.
If you're looking to get one, I'd stick to a lower mile version. It's just nice to start out with a good engine and then protect it well versus having your first action be pull the engine and get it rebuilt. Treat them like they are 75k to 100k mile engines before you really need to do something like rebuild or replace. So, the lower mile you go, the longer you have to play with it until you're forced to do something.
Also, look for rust free. Old Mazdas rust...BAD. So make an effort to seek out a completely rust free one. The rear fenders rust a lot around their perimeter, behind the front wheels rocker panel area rusts, and the rear rocker area rusts. Those are big areas you often see rust. Find a car with none, and you can protect it and have a lot of miles and still have it look pristine.
The series 2 ones have a number of refreshes/updates that people generally consider as worth getting, but they're overall VERY similar. One of the improvements is additional oiling for the engine to improve wear. But you can also bump up oil metering in the ECU, use thicker oil, and premix if you want too. I think a lot of the wear revolved around the thin oil they ran. They initially were rated for 5w30 and then later rated for 5w20...for an engine that requires a LOT of shear wear protection and is perpetually hot. I run AMSOIL 5w50 SSO in mine because I actually want shear protection.
The "flooding" thing is a myth and mainly a byproduct of very weak starters in the first couple years. Mazda updated the starter a couple times, and with the newest and fastest version of the starter I've never had my RX8 not start. I have a very old, very worn out one...when I bought it...had hot start problems, "flooding," etc. that everyone complains about. It's very easy to buy into all the stigmas. I put a better starter on it, and then put 20k miles on it and never had it not start nor "flood." I drove it through an entire winter and three blizzards, hot summers, autocross, rallycross, and road rallied it 1500 miles over a weekend. I do short trips, long trips, do all the things they say never to do, and the only thing I actually adhere to is to redline it every drive (once warmed up).
Suspension is tuned for a bit of understeer stock. If you just disconnect the front sway bar, you'll be close to neutral but have a lot of roll. I have the Racing Beat suspension on my second RX8 (the nice one), and that's pretty good, just slight understeer. It fixes the soft suspension and sloppy turn in shortcomings of the stock setup. It can also handle sticky tires which the stock setup very much can't. Minor changes pretty drastically change the feel of the car since it's sooooo soft to start with.
In all, they're a practical Miata. Well, they're not. They're a GT car, longer heavier, not as tossable, but with very good double wishbone suspension all around. The high powered engine offsets the weight, but the tall gearing hinders the feel of power. It's a car you feel slow in until you look at the mph, or if you hop into another car after and suddenly wonder why the other car feels slow. At its core, it's a GT car, with soft springs, with insulation and quiet cabin, and with tall gears and not having to wind through a lot of gears. A Miata, even of the same chassis, is a moderately different thing, light and tossable, but also a bit "toy like" in the NA and NB sizes. I LOVE the ND gearbox with 1:1 at 6th (best thing Mazda did with the car). But I really disliked the ND's dead steering. I even test drove their RF Club. I find the RX8 more interesting and more broadly usable.
On a side note:
If there is a want for a Miata, I'm personally more akin to an old Z4. It's basically the grown up version with more room, more power, more style, higher quality parts, but still a true top down roadster feel. An old mid to late 2000s "85" or "86" chassis with the inline 6 is really nice, just depends on if you want a coupe or convertible. You can get the 3.0i for cheaper, and it's just an intake swap and ECU tune away from the si version. But you can get the 3.0si to start if the price is good. I also didn't find the Z4 M of that era to be terribly priced either, cheaper than a S2000 these days, plus keeps the hydraulic steering and is more "track focused" with the suspension than the standard cars, and of course more power. I'll say that generation of BMW suspension isn't something I like much. That era of BMW suspension philosophy is basically sit on the bump stops because sporty and bump stops are springs too. I get the intent, but man, that whole generation rides harsh. An E36 rides so much nicer than an E46, and an E46 with the sport suspension just feels like something's broke on the car or a kid cut the springs and slammed the thing. Mazda really shines in suspension and makes a lot of cars feel bad, so I don't fault the Z4 too much. Plus it's a lot better than the Z3, lol.
If you haven't gotten to try an older Z4, I'd given them a whirl. They had a couple engine generations during that time frame, the older one heavier and less advanced but handles forced induction, the newer engine much lighter and more modern in technology but is pretty strictly NA only, so I've read. They're nice driving experiences, and the back end (which you're basically sitting on top of) is even lively and will oversteer in completely stock trim if you want.
Does your back ever fatigue from the BRZ? You don’t need a lumbar pillow?
if the prices werent so bad, I wouldve gotten s2000 than my 2013 370z
Hey Topher, when you get it Krowned are you going to drill holes? Trying to decide if I want to drill out the BRZ or not when I Krown it.
Oh yeah, it’s already been done. Getting into the frame and inside the body panels is the most important part, so would highly recommend drilling. You don’t even notice it with the rubber grommets they put on after.
@@TheTopher Thanks, I'll get them to drill it. I want to keep this car for as long as I can.
I own both, s2000 over brz any day
Lovely comparison. Any rust issues on your AP1?
Hey Chris! I just picked up an AP1 as well and I love your videos! I noticed when you start moving in first there's a slight clunk (I think in the driveshaft). I have a similar issue and was wondering if you know what maybe causing that noise?
Try changing the diff & tran fluid. Additionally, having an Ap1 you will do well to do a valve adjustment and check the retainers for cracks. Upgrade to AP2 retainers as preventative maintenance
@@NicholasNunezjust picked up an AP1 last month and all these things were the first things I did. Car already felt amazing, felt incredible and even better after all of that refreshed.
@@AntagonistInPhoenix good stuff.
I've put 100k on my Ap1 across 12 years with nothing more than fluids and valve adjustments.
My retainers were cracking so I got ahead of that.
My only non scheduled maintenance was for a leaking master cylinder leaking.. But the car has never left me stranded once. I hope you can enjoy yours as much as I have!
@@AntagonistInPhoenix look into a shifter rebuild kit sold by LHT Performance
👍
I prefer the GT86 to all these cars. I don't like convertibles (my father has a mint NB MX5 and it's nice, but not my vibe) and dislike all the enhancements of the new 86/BRZ.
Is the BRZ actually that tail-happy? This would be my first sports car and I am so close to pulling the trigger on it. I know it can slide around if you give it what it wants.
just got mine not long ago and she slides alot (2023 BRZ)
It was designed for that, if memory serves me right.
Double wishbone vs strut. no need to compare
S2000 > brz any day of the week especially that top down experience just tops it AP1 to be specific..
Much as I love the S2000, and always wanted one (in yellow), unless you're going beyond 6k rpm regularly, what's the point?
Please do more comparisons!
another silver ap1 in michigan hi friend. hope i catch u in the wild.
The brz isnt delayed in the throttle response it has excellent throttle response the s2000 has no throttle response
Where can I find info on modding the Torklift hitch to work on the 2nd gen?
What's crazy to me is that they weigh just about the same
Isn't it a struggle to tow anything with a RWD car vs AWD?
Honda
S2000 all the feels,
BRZ, eh, she gets down.
So let's say someone already has a AP1 is there any reason to get a GR86/BRZ maybe as a daily? But I also have 2 kids...
It's possible if they're very young
It would make more "sense" to get a hot hatchback or some kind of sports sedan/wagon as a daily (or an SUV if you "have to") but car enthusiasts aren't always rational! 😉
@TassieLorenzo oooof suv is NOT my kind of fun driving. Currently driving a Honda passport daily at the moment. I would love a hot hatch like the CTR but it's markup makes it unreasonable. Plus that'll be my 3rd Honda as the wife also drives an accord. Integra type S would be nice but markup and high price makes it unreasonable just like the CTR
@Indifference2000 Corolla GR is the obvious choice only REAL GR product. Don't tell me you can't find one for sticker like the integra type S these can be found for MSRP try harder
@@Indifference2000if you're looking for this level of daily, potentially consider the v6 6mt accords. Not rwd and does not handle as well as the brz/s2000 though, but very practical and still fun in my opinion
Camaro SS 1LE 🥹
No matter what the question is...the answer is S2000.
I've always wanted a S2000 but my problem is now that I'm 6'3 and I probably can't fit in it all 😂😭💀
I'm 6'4" and I owned an S2000 for a couple of years. I immediately installed Back Yard Special seat rails on it that drop the seat an inch or so and that made a huge difference. Its not exactly roomy, but I was in my mid 20s when I owned it so a cramped interior didn't bother me too much. So, there is hope for you at 6'3"!
@@bradcomis1066 Thanks for the info, I'm in my mid 20's so I just gained some hope😀
Hi Topher, would you mind to share the phone noun on brz? It looks neat!
got it on Etsy, 3D printed www.etsy.com/listing/1218350810/magsafe-phone-mount-2022-toyota-gr86-and
@@TheTopher Cheers mate!
Hey Topher, there have been complaints about the second gen steering of the BRZ being worse than the first gen. Would you say the first gen is better than S2000? I'm surprised you said the S2000 steering is better because the S2000 EPS is probably it's one of the worst aspects of the handling of the vehicle.
man that road is so bad, you in Colombia?
Same transmission?