Thanks for the explanations you provided below in the posts. I live on the ground floor of an apartment building, with no balcony or nearby tree to use. So, I'm keeping my eyes out for something someone is using that I might adapt for my use. I've already spoken to the apt manager (her dad is a SK ham), and she's given me the go ahead for an antenna that does not attach physically to the structure. Good luck with that, I say! lol
You might look into a Mag Loop. Also I operated a Yaesu ATAS antenna actually inside my house, using a living room table as the counterpose and was able to reach Australia at 50W with that configuration! If you can make a tripod work, with radials outstretching on the floor, that would also work.
Very nice! I've used the URT-1 with 25 and 43 foot vertical non resonant radiators with great result. They are DX monsters. But nothing so integrated as your build.
Hehe. The title of my video is "Simple and effective". I never used the words "cheap" or even "affordable" ;-) Nevertheless, I have come to find that Chameleon distributes high quality products, and I've interacted with their customer service staff by both email and telephone, and they've been consistently great to deal with.
Three points. 1. Review my LinkedIn profile, look at my expertise, my patents, etc. 2. I have this operating in two locations for several months, with no problems detected. 3. This is one of those situations where the results may not be intuitive, but since I do computer modeling of component geometry, materials, optimizing components for weight, stiffness, and yes even fatigue, using ANSYS almost every day of my life, the results I'm getting are completely expected.
@@justawfulgamer7738 Hehe... Here's the long answer: the word "fatigue" speaks to "cyclical stress". And yes, aluminum can fail from cyclical stress. The applicable questions are -- exactly how much stress and how many cycles? When my students talk about aluminum and cyclical stress I respond by asking them what kind of car they drive. I then point out the aluminum wheels mounted on their car. When a car drives down the road, it sure looks like cyclical stress to me! Then why do we not see aluminum wheels fatiguing and tires popping off of cars as they drive down the road? It's because the stress is kept low enough because of how much material is in the wheels. In the case of this antenna tuner, the aluminum is around 3/8 inch thick, and there aren't many cycles applied to it (we're talking wind here)... So no, the case will not fail from the fatigue caused by cyclical stress. What will fail long before that is that the antenna will become kinked and fold over if it ever experiences wind strong enough. But this would happen regardless of how the antenna is mounted to a fixed point.
@@WilliamBennerJr Love the explanation! Can I assume you've done the same analysis on the bottom where you have attached the tripod mount? I was wondering how this would handle the stress given the amount of aluminum removed for the two SO-239 connectors.
Suggestion: Drill a hole in the fence, install a 1/4 x 20 Stainless Rivnut in the hole in the fence, run the counterpoise to the Rivnut with a 1/4 x 20 stainless bolt to reduce corrosion.
Yes, I've also considered just running a wire to the bottom, and "draping that" along the length of the fence. It would be completely out of the way, and would ensure it's working as a full-length counterpose, regardless of the connection stability of the fence itself.
Fence looks like it might be some type of aluminum- if you put stainless and aluminum together they will bond over time - that screw would be impossible to take out - not sure if that matters but ……
@@apjbuilder Installing a RivNut into the fence with NoAlox will solve the bonding problem, they are very electrically compatible with the clamping force of the RivNut and the NoAlox preventing Galvanic corrosion.
I'm considering a mobile variant of this but no fancy schmancy remote tuning. Instead I have an old home brew Z match (manual antenna tuner) and a QRP rig, and a vertical, and probably some metal mesh as a counterpoise/groundplane, but similar idea of tuner with a whip popping out the top. What I'm curious about is how well you can hear, and be heard, on lower bands (80m, 160m). I have a feeling that for portable (field day, pota, sota) operation, your idea of automatic may be awesome, in combination with a portable antenna mast solution of some kind so that the whip can be got up high in the air and then retuned at will.
Since June I've played around with a variety of vertical antennas, for portable and permanent use in HOA environments. So I've also explored configurations that you are describing. What I like about this setup is that with a single configuration, I can get all the way from 10M to 160M without having to adjust the antenna or twiddle knobs on a tuner. Regarding your question about the lower bands, I just looked in my log, and in most cases I get a 59 on 80M. (Anecdotally I think people get 59 in many cases, even when it's not really a 59 so...) On 160M that band isn't open too much, and I find that there are a lot of long conversations going on -- not many people calling CQ or POTA, and I've been too polite to try to break in just to get a signal report. If there's a 160M operator out there who'd like to coordinate a conversation with me, I think that would be a worthwhile endeavor.
Great video and explanations in the comments. I just ran across your channel, and after watching this video, I subscribed to your channel. Do you plan on doing a video detailing your mods to the tuner and cap-hat? I would very much like to watch them. 73s...
Thanks for the note. The mod for the tuner was somewhat documented in that video. There is a picture at time 4:03 which shows the mod, and the description details the parts I bought and where I got them. For the cap hat, I just drilled a small hole in the central hub, and tapped it for a #4-40 screw. Not much to it really.
Hehe. "FAFO" method ;-) But it seems this is the case with many hams. Tarheel sells one that actually goes on the bottom!!! I'd call that a Capacitance Foot...
Outstanding video! But as a newby I have some questions if you have a few minutes. It appears when you key the radio with low wattage, the external tuner kicks in and the SWR comes down. Then you're switching and running the NovaVNA through the antenna circuit to verify it's actually tuned, is that correct? Now my understanding, which could be wrong, is that the tuner tunes the circuit to satisfy the radio, but the physical length of the antenna, since it's a fixed length, remains not resonant. Is that correct? So if that understanding is correct, does this also mean that the antenna is not really delivering the full power of the radio at a frequency where it's not resonant? To put it another way, lets say you wanted to transmit at 1.874k. If you had a vertical antenna resonant for 1.874k (pretty tall!), would your radio deliver more power on that frequency, than using a non-resonant antenna with a tuner? Does the tuner compromise power output, and does it depend on the amount of mismatch? I'm studying for my general and I'm trying to understand this properly. And, after I get my general I'm looking for an HF solution. Finally, you stated that you don't use the antenna at full height on windy days. Is there a limit to what the tuner can do based on it's length? For example, if you had the antenna too short, would that prevent the tuner from doing it's job on perhaps the lower frequencies? I'm impressed with your setup and equipment. Tuners are certainly necessary because we can't all have a yard full of resonate antenna's for the various bands, but my real question is how badly a tuner compromises the antenna's effective radiated output? I purchased a multiband vertical and placed it in my backyard, radials on the ground, with other houses and structures blocking it. It seemed to receive the lower bands well, but was absolutely no good at all for 10m, the only band I'm currently licensed to use. I wound up building my own 10M on a 30ft fiberglass mast with the element and radials at the top. NOW I have a very good working 10M antenna. So I'm concerned that 40 and 60 meters may still be effected by my backyard and somehow I need radials that are elevated. That metal fence you are using is an elevated radial and from what I've read, that's probably giving you a boost over radials that are laying on the ground. But at this point I'm just trying to understand everything. Thank you for the time you spent doing this video! It was very helpful.
WOW long reply. Feel free to contact me on my contact form at WilliamBenner dot com. You can search the web to find out how these remote tuners work. They use a simple L-C circuit. This kind of auto-tuner is capable of "rotating" the L-C in four separate ways, thus covering many different kinds of mismatches. And yes, there is a limit to the range of impedances that this tuner will match (same with all tuners). When I shorten the antenna I make the tuner have to work harder (particularly using more inductance) on the 160M and 80M bands. 40M and up are no problem, even for whips as short as 4 feet! The tuner only dissipates a little bit of power owing to resistance of the inductors and small losses in the capacitors. It’s just during tuning, relays are opening and closing and at high power, this could cause “arcing” to occur on the relays, which may damage them, or at the very least confuse the tuning algorithm. Once tuned you can operate the radio at full power.
On certain bands I do. For example on the lower portion of 160M I need to do this. Also on a portion of 80M. But for the rest, SWR is very close to 1:1. And the whole point of a remote auto-tuner is that the impedance is matched at the antenna, thus leading to the lowest loss in the coax.
Right. Sure looks like it, doesn't it? But the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Been there for months at two locations. Do I need to make another video showing why it works with an ANSYS model?
@WilliamBennerJr good to hear. I'm on the west of Scotland and the wind just doesn't stop. Strong enough to snap an Antron 99 before. I would need to guy that
@@1kc1981 yes indeed but that would be the case even with the whip screwed into that gumdrop mount made by MFJ that I showed in the earlier part of my video.
160M swr 1.1 , efficiency Zero...you'd be better off adding wire to the top of the 25ft vertical and stringing it into a trees. Perfect swr means nothing, when it comes to antenna performance. Add 100ft of wire for something more effective
Agreed, efficiency is about "metal in the air". 160M isn't open very often in my area anyway, so it is of little consequence. The point is, this is a single antenna system that can be tuned to all of these frequencies super easily. 80M works well enough to be able to make contacts and get people to *tell me* 59. (Of course many people say 59 so...)
Yes indeed, low SWR is possible if there are losses in the system. For example, this video shows conclusively the losses found in the MPAS 2.0. I also repeated his test. This guys is smart: ua-cam.com/video/af1iR1bg4Og/v-deo.html
Nevertheless, what you see in the nano VNA in most bands is a relatively high Q system with good resonance. High Q and good resonance can't exist with losses. And of course the whole point of ham radio is to experiment and share results. That's what I've done here. If you don't like what you see, don't use it!
Thanks for the explanations you provided below in the posts. I live on the ground floor of an apartment building, with no balcony or nearby tree to use. So, I'm keeping my eyes out for something someone is using that I might adapt for my use. I've already spoken to the apt manager (her dad is a SK ham), and she's given me the go ahead for an antenna that does not attach physically to the structure. Good luck with that, I say! lol
You might look into a Mag Loop. Also I operated a Yaesu ATAS antenna actually inside my house, using a living room table as the counterpose and was able to reach Australia at 50W with that configuration! If you can make a tripod work, with radials outstretching on the floor, that would also work.
@@WilliamBennerJr Cool! Thanks for the suggestions!
Very nice! I've used the URT-1 with 25 and 43 foot vertical non resonant radiators with great result. They are DX monsters. But nothing so integrated as your build.
Thanks for the kudos. In essence, I only changed the attachment mechanism, but didn't prevent it from being used with wires if desired.
The price points for Chameleon is out of my league.
Hehe. The title of my video is "Simple and effective". I never used the words "cheap" or even "affordable" ;-) Nevertheless, I have come to find that Chameleon distributes high quality products, and I've interacted with their customer service staff by both email and telephone, and they've been consistently great to deal with.
That mounting point for the whip is a bad fatigue point. If that is an aluminum enclosure will it fail with wind load. 🤔
Three points. 1. Review my LinkedIn profile, look at my expertise, my patents, etc. 2. I have this operating in two locations for several months, with no problems detected. 3. This is one of those situations where the results may not be intuitive, but since I do computer modeling of component geometry, materials, optimizing components for weight, stiffness, and yes even fatigue, using ANSYS almost every day of my life, the results I'm getting are completely expected.
🤔
Basically, he knows nore than you.
@@justawfulgamer7738 Hehe... Here's the long answer: the word "fatigue" speaks to "cyclical stress". And yes, aluminum can fail from cyclical stress. The applicable questions are -- exactly how much stress and how many cycles? When my students talk about aluminum and cyclical stress I respond by asking them what kind of car they drive. I then point out the aluminum wheels mounted on their car. When a car drives down the road, it sure looks like cyclical stress to me! Then why do we not see aluminum wheels fatiguing and tires popping off of cars as they drive down the road? It's because the stress is kept low enough because of how much material is in the wheels. In the case of this antenna tuner, the aluminum is around 3/8 inch thick, and there aren't many cycles applied to it (we're talking wind here)... So no, the case will not fail from the fatigue caused by cyclical stress. What will fail long before that is that the antenna will become kinked and fold over if it ever experiences wind strong enough. But this would happen regardless of how the antenna is mounted to a fixed point.
@@WilliamBennerJr Love the explanation! Can I assume you've done the same analysis on the bottom where you have attached the tripod mount? I was wondering how this would handle the stress given the amount of aluminum removed for the two SO-239 connectors.
Suggestion: Drill a hole in the fence, install a 1/4 x 20 Stainless Rivnut in the hole in the fence, run the counterpoise to the Rivnut with a 1/4 x 20 stainless bolt to reduce corrosion.
Yes, I've also considered just running a wire to the bottom, and "draping that" along the length of the fence. It would be completely out of the way, and would ensure it's working as a full-length counterpose, regardless of the connection stability of the fence itself.
Fence looks like it might be some type of aluminum- if you put stainless and aluminum together they will bond over time - that screw would be impossible to take out - not sure if that matters but ……
@@apjbuilder Installing a RivNut into the fence with NoAlox will solve the bonding problem, they are very electrically compatible with the clamping force of the RivNut and the NoAlox preventing Galvanic corrosion.
I'm considering a mobile variant of this but no fancy schmancy remote tuning. Instead I have an old home brew Z match (manual antenna tuner) and a QRP rig, and a vertical, and probably some metal mesh as a counterpoise/groundplane, but similar idea of tuner with a whip popping out the top.
What I'm curious about is how well you can hear, and be heard, on lower bands (80m, 160m). I have a feeling that for portable (field day, pota, sota) operation, your idea of automatic may be awesome, in combination with a portable antenna mast solution of some kind so that the whip can be got up high in the air and then retuned at will.
Since June I've played around with a variety of vertical antennas, for portable and permanent use in HOA environments. So I've also explored configurations that you are describing. What I like about this setup is that with a single configuration, I can get all the way from 10M to 160M without having to adjust the antenna or twiddle knobs on a tuner.
Regarding your question about the lower bands, I just looked in my log, and in most cases I get a 59 on 80M. (Anecdotally I think people get 59 in many cases, even when it's not really a 59 so...) On 160M that band isn't open too much, and I find that there are a lot of long conversations going on -- not many people calling CQ or POTA, and I've been too polite to try to break in just to get a signal report. If there's a 160M operator out there who'd like to coordinate a conversation with me, I think that would be a worthwhile endeavor.
Great video and explanations in the comments. I just ran across your channel, and after watching this video, I subscribed to your channel. Do you plan on doing a video detailing your mods to the tuner and cap-hat? I would very much like to watch them. 73s...
Thanks for the note. The mod for the tuner was somewhat documented in that video. There is a picture at time 4:03 which shows the mod, and the description details the parts I bought and where I got them. For the cap hat, I just drilled a small hole in the central hub, and tapped it for a #4-40 screw. Not much to it really.
Simple and effective, nice! How did you determine where to put the capacitance hat?
Hehe. "FAFO" method ;-) But it seems this is the case with many hams. Tarheel sells one that actually goes on the bottom!!! I'd call that a Capacitance Foot...
Outstanding video! But as a newby I have some questions if you have a few minutes. It appears when you key the radio with low wattage, the external tuner kicks in and the SWR comes down. Then you're switching and running the NovaVNA through the antenna circuit to verify it's actually tuned, is that correct?
Now my understanding, which could be wrong, is that the tuner tunes the circuit to satisfy the radio, but the physical length of the antenna, since it's a fixed length, remains not resonant. Is that correct?
So if that understanding is correct, does this also mean that the antenna is not really delivering the full power of the radio at a frequency where it's not resonant? To put it another way, lets say you wanted to transmit at 1.874k. If you had a vertical antenna resonant for 1.874k (pretty tall!), would your radio deliver more power on that frequency, than using a non-resonant antenna with a tuner?
Does the tuner compromise power output, and does it depend on the amount of mismatch? I'm studying for my general and I'm trying to understand this properly. And, after I get my general I'm looking for an HF solution.
Finally, you stated that you don't use the antenna at full height on windy days. Is there a limit to what the tuner can do based on it's length? For example, if you had the antenna too short, would that prevent the tuner from doing it's job on perhaps the lower frequencies?
I'm impressed with your setup and equipment. Tuners are certainly necessary because we can't all have a yard full of resonate antenna's for the various bands, but my real question is how badly a tuner compromises the antenna's effective radiated output?
I purchased a multiband vertical and placed it in my backyard, radials on the ground, with other houses and structures blocking it. It seemed to receive the lower bands well, but was absolutely no good at all for 10m, the only band I'm currently licensed to use. I wound up building my own 10M on a 30ft fiberglass mast with the element and radials at the top. NOW I have a very good working 10M antenna.
So I'm concerned that 40 and 60 meters may still be effected by my backyard and somehow I need radials that are elevated. That metal fence you are using is an elevated radial and from what I've read, that's probably giving you a boost over radials that are laying on the ground. But at this point I'm just trying to understand everything. Thank you for the time you spent doing this video! It was very helpful.
WOW long reply. Feel free to contact me on my contact form at WilliamBenner dot com.
You can search the web to find out how these remote tuners work. They use a simple L-C circuit. This kind of auto-tuner is capable of "rotating" the L-C in four separate ways, thus covering many different kinds of mismatches.
And yes, there is a limit to the range of impedances that this tuner will match (same with all tuners). When I shorten the antenna I make the tuner have to work harder (particularly using more inductance) on the 160M and 80M bands. 40M and up are no problem, even for whips as short as 4 feet!
The tuner only dissipates a little bit of power owing to resistance of the inductors and small losses in the capacitors. It’s just during tuning, relays are opening and closing and at high power, this could cause “arcing” to occur on the relays, which may damage them, or at the very least confuse the tuning algorithm. Once tuned you can operate the radio at full power.
Thank for sharing this interesting "HAM" information. I need to collect money and buy it! "73"
Admittedly this is not a cheap solution. But it is simple and versatile.
At what height/length is the counterweight located?
Counterpoise is at ground level. Around 100 feet in total.
Very interesting!
I think you should consider my mod to the Cap Hat. That gets it higher than I've seen possible with your other configurations.
great setup congratulations 73 from kb2uew
Glad you like it!
Why do you not use the internal antenna tuner on your 7610?
On certain bands I do. For example on the lower portion of 160M I need to do this. Also on a portion of 80M. But for the rest, SWR is very close to 1:1. And the whole point of a remote auto-tuner is that the impedance is matched at the antenna, thus leading to the lowest loss in the coax.
Great video, many thanks!! Robert K5TPC
Thanks for the kudos!
Thanks for sharing! 73 de K4FR
My pleasure!
Putting too much strain on that antenna port on the tuner
Right. Sure looks like it, doesn't it? But the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Been there for months at two locations. Do I need to make another video showing why it works with an ANSYS model?
@WilliamBennerJr good to hear. I'm on the west of Scotland and the wind just doesn't stop. Strong enough to snap an Antron 99 before. I would need to guy that
@@1kc1981 yes indeed but that would be the case even with the whip screwed into that gumdrop mount made by MFJ that I showed in the earlier part of my video.
Very impressive. Insightful find on the Chameleon tuner. Thanks for sharing. 73 de KO4WQT
It was the UA-cam channel that covers HOA Ham topics that convinced me to buy it. The CAP HAT trick also helps.
160M swr 1.1 , efficiency Zero...you'd be better off adding wire to the top of the 25ft vertical and stringing it into a trees.
Perfect swr means nothing, when it comes to antenna performance.
Add 100ft of wire for something more effective
Agreed, efficiency is about "metal in the air". 160M isn't open very often in my area anyway, so it is of little consequence. The point is, this is a single antenna system that can be tuned to all of these frequencies super easily. 80M works well enough to be able to make contacts and get people to *tell me* 59. (Of course many people say 59 so...)
This is a typical "plugin" radioamateur , you can get swr to zero even with a 50 ohm dummyload, short antennas on 160 meter, bad efficiency also,
Yes indeed, low SWR is possible if there are losses in the system. For example, this video shows conclusively the losses found in the MPAS 2.0. I also repeated his test. This guys is smart: ua-cam.com/video/af1iR1bg4Og/v-deo.html
Nevertheless, what you see in the nano VNA in most bands is a relatively high Q system with good resonance. High Q and good resonance can't exist with losses. And of course the whole point of ham radio is to experiment and share results. That's what I've done here. If you don't like what you see, don't use it!